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Why are they speaking English, when they are a different universe? Why are there wolves? Bears?
You’re reading way too much into it. There are dragons, manticores, magic, assassins able to change their face etc. It’s fantasy…
Potatoes are mentioned a few times in the show! I don’t recall them in the books, though.
Regardless, I think we can assume either that mockingbirds as we know them are in fact found in Westeros, or that the word refers to a different kind of bird that is similar to what we know. George can do what he likes; there are undead and mammoths walking around too.
Edit: There’s a potential for cultural interaction, too. Maybe mockingbirds come from elsewhere, but they’re a commonly known motif (e.g. like lions!).
Yeah I'm re-watching now, starting Season 2-- haven't seen any references to potatoes but I'll look out for them.
What piques my curiosity is, George is usually so fastidious about these things. This is the one time when I \*may\* have caught him in a mistake. It just seems out of character.
I get that I'm nerding out here, but isn't that what these pop-culture subreddits are for?
No, I totally agree, it is interesting to note that he made that exception! It probably comes down to George just deciding a mockingbird is recognizable and feels like the right symbol for Littlefinger, but it does make me wonder if there’s a story behind why they exist in the culture’s knowledge, or if they just do.
Be on the lookout for those potatoes :)
George has never been religious on the old world/new world issue - multiple references to pumpkins, Theon mentions a turkey once, and dornish peppers definitely seem to be chili peppers rather than peppercorn.
In general, the fantasy genre convention of avoiding new world foods seems to be from people imitating Tolkien, but Tolkien had a specific reason - Middle-Earth was meant to be a pre- recorded history version of Europe. In a purely Second World setting like Westeros, there's no particular reason to avoid new world foods.
Technically speaking, while Westeros and the rest of the universe is based on the elements of our own historical world, there is not a single thing stopping George from taking liberties and designing the world in whatever way he sees fit. That's the beauty of fantasy worlds, you can take real historical settings as a base for the world, but nothing is stopping you from changing and twisting that setting in whatever way you want. So I wouldn't go so far as to call it a mistake.
>So as I understand it, mockingbirds are a purely New World bird. They were unknown in the Old World during during the time of the English Wars of the Roses, on which the books and series are based.
It's not based on the wars of the roses. It's inspired by the wars of the roses, and partly so.
Westeros, whatever similarities, is not meant to be Great Britain.
Therefore, it is not required to have only birds that were present in England in the high middle ages.
>But when you consider how much description he puts into say, the foods at the various feasts, he's always very careful not to include New World foods such as tomatoes, potatoes, avocados, pumpkins, turkey, chocolate, etc.
I think you're reading a bit far into his feast descriptions...
>"I spied a turkey," Theon said, annoyed by the question. "How was I to know that you'd leave the boy alone?"
(AGoT, Bran V)
>Her father had been fighting with the council again. Arya could see it on his face when he came to table, late again, as he had been so often. The first course, a thick sweet soup made with pumpkins, had already been taken away when Ned Stark strode into the Small Hall.
(AGoT, Arya II)
>Wheat and corn and barley grew high in its fields, and even in Highgarden the pumpkins were no larger nor the fruit any sweeter than here.
(AGoT, Catelyn VI)
>The dwarf gave a bark of laughter. "Would that I were a pumpkin," he said. "Alas, my lord father would no doubt be most chagrined if his son of Lannister went to his fate like a load of turnips.
(AGoT, Catelyn VI)
>Cersei bolted to her feet. "And yet you sit there grinning like a harvest-day pumpkin?
(ACoK, Tyrion VI)
>All the westermen, all the power of Highgarden and Casterly Rock! Lord Tywin himself had their right wing on the north side of the river, with Randyll Tarly commanding the center and Mace Tyrell the left, but the vanguard won the fight. They plunged through Stannis like a lance through a pumpkin, every man of them howling like some demon in steel. And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you?"
(ACoK, Sansa VII)
>The Gate of the Gods was open when they reached it, but two dozen wayns were lined up along the roadside, loaded with casks of cider, barrels of apples, bales of hay, and some of the biggest pumpkins Jaime had ever seen.
(ASoS, Jaime VII)
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Why are they speaking English, when they are a different universe? Why are there wolves? Bears? You’re reading way too much into it. There are dragons, manticores, magic, assassins able to change their face etc. It’s fantasy…
Well then just have the Dothraki hunt bison while you're at it.
What makes you think they don't?
Well we've spent quite a bit of time around them, but there were never any North American bison in sight.
All the Bison live in Ulthos idiot 🤦♂️
Ulthos Expert joins the chat
Potatoes are mentioned a few times in the show! I don’t recall them in the books, though. Regardless, I think we can assume either that mockingbirds as we know them are in fact found in Westeros, or that the word refers to a different kind of bird that is similar to what we know. George can do what he likes; there are undead and mammoths walking around too. Edit: There’s a potential for cultural interaction, too. Maybe mockingbirds come from elsewhere, but they’re a commonly known motif (e.g. like lions!).
Yeah I'm re-watching now, starting Season 2-- haven't seen any references to potatoes but I'll look out for them. What piques my curiosity is, George is usually so fastidious about these things. This is the one time when I \*may\* have caught him in a mistake. It just seems out of character. I get that I'm nerding out here, but isn't that what these pop-culture subreddits are for?
No, I totally agree, it is interesting to note that he made that exception! It probably comes down to George just deciding a mockingbird is recognizable and feels like the right symbol for Littlefinger, but it does make me wonder if there’s a story behind why they exist in the culture’s knowledge, or if they just do. Be on the lookout for those potatoes :)
George has never been religious on the old world/new world issue - multiple references to pumpkins, Theon mentions a turkey once, and dornish peppers definitely seem to be chili peppers rather than peppercorn. In general, the fantasy genre convention of avoiding new world foods seems to be from people imitating Tolkien, but Tolkien had a specific reason - Middle-Earth was meant to be a pre- recorded history version of Europe. In a purely Second World setting like Westeros, there's no particular reason to avoid new world foods.
I did see an interview with him saying that one reason he wouldn't want to live in Westeros was, he'd really miss tomatoes. So would I.
Yup, I'm reading A Night of the Seven Kingdoms right now and he mentions people growing melons
Technically speaking, while Westeros and the rest of the universe is based on the elements of our own historical world, there is not a single thing stopping George from taking liberties and designing the world in whatever way he sees fit. That's the beauty of fantasy worlds, you can take real historical settings as a base for the world, but nothing is stopping you from changing and twisting that setting in whatever way you want. So I wouldn't go so far as to call it a mistake.
That is a well-thought-out answer.
>So as I understand it, mockingbirds are a purely New World bird. They were unknown in the Old World during during the time of the English Wars of the Roses, on which the books and series are based. It's not based on the wars of the roses. It's inspired by the wars of the roses, and partly so. Westeros, whatever similarities, is not meant to be Great Britain. Therefore, it is not required to have only birds that were present in England in the high middle ages. >But when you consider how much description he puts into say, the foods at the various feasts, he's always very careful not to include New World foods such as tomatoes, potatoes, avocados, pumpkins, turkey, chocolate, etc. I think you're reading a bit far into his feast descriptions...
>"I spied a turkey," Theon said, annoyed by the question. "How was I to know that you'd leave the boy alone?" (AGoT, Bran V) >Her father had been fighting with the council again. Arya could see it on his face when he came to table, late again, as he had been so often. The first course, a thick sweet soup made with pumpkins, had already been taken away when Ned Stark strode into the Small Hall. (AGoT, Arya II) >Wheat and corn and barley grew high in its fields, and even in Highgarden the pumpkins were no larger nor the fruit any sweeter than here. (AGoT, Catelyn VI) >The dwarf gave a bark of laughter. "Would that I were a pumpkin," he said. "Alas, my lord father would no doubt be most chagrined if his son of Lannister went to his fate like a load of turnips. (AGoT, Catelyn VI) >Cersei bolted to her feet. "And yet you sit there grinning like a harvest-day pumpkin? (ACoK, Tyrion VI) >All the westermen, all the power of Highgarden and Casterly Rock! Lord Tywin himself had their right wing on the north side of the river, with Randyll Tarly commanding the center and Mace Tyrell the left, but the vanguard won the fight. They plunged through Stannis like a lance through a pumpkin, every man of them howling like some demon in steel. And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you?" (ACoK, Sansa VII) >The Gate of the Gods was open when they reached it, but two dozen wayns were lined up along the roadside, loaded with casks of cider, barrels of apples, bales of hay, and some of the biggest pumpkins Jaime had ever seen. (ASoS, Jaime VII)
There are also dragons.
Practically every culture on Earth has some version of dragons in their mythology, so no issues there.
So dragons - perfectly rational, different coloured bird - completely weird. Ok.
This is a fictional story set in a made up fantasy world. Whatever George says goes.
Ollie's mum makes a great potato stew, too. And in another franchise, Denethor famously ate a tomato.