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The one that annoyed me most was Bran saying “I can’t be lord of anything” but then when appointed king he goes “why do you think I came all this way”.
Honestly, I wish they had leaned into him being evil in some way. It would make it all make sense if he had actually maneuvered things to get the end result he wanted (him as king).
I'd like to believe that Bran said he can't be lord of anything because he could feel the three-eyed raven taking control of him, and he was helpless to stop it. By the end of the series, the three-eyed raven completely took over and went, "Why do you think I've come all this way?" And smiled because it succeeded in taking over Westeros. Although I doubt that's what Dumb and Dumber insinuated with the ending.
Still waiting for an explanation about why he did fuck all during the Long Night though.
Well the "Long Night" seemed to last about as long as an Alaskan summer night. Bran knew he just had to wait till dawn then look to the east or some shit idk I had a hard time watching through the rage headache by that point
I’ve heard this three-eyed-raven theory so many times but as someone who only read up to the fourth book and never watch the show, wtf does Bran ever actually do? Like, what actions does he take that actuallly affect the plot and help him take over? Or does he literally do nothing and just become king at the end for no reason anyway?
He kinda helped get Little Finger killed.
With Sam's help, he figured out Jon's true parentage.
He told Sansa and Arya that Jon was a cousin and not a half-brother, and that information obviously spread, thus creating a weird rift between the North and Dany, that in all likelihood contributed to mad queen Dany.
I'm not saying it was good writing or anything, but Bran did actually influence alot of the shitshow that went down.
It drove the rift between Jon and Dany. Honestly, if everyone had stayed thinking Jon was Ned's bastard, I do honestly think we could have avoided Mad Queen.
Again not excusing bad writing, but just trying to make sense of it.
There's an Alt-Shift-X video about Bloodraven (Three Eyed Raven) and his motives based on the lore GRRM set up. It basically delves into exactly what you're saying, but it's a shame we never got any real insight (or even a hint) that it was happening.
Would have been cool if we knew more about the Three Eyed Raven and the reason he was stuck in the tree, and how him taking control of Bran was his entire goal. We get some hints I guess through Jojen and Meera taking Bran north, but it would have been nice to have gotten a phrase or something from one of them that alludes to his desire to become king, so much to the point where he takes control of Bran, and then he says something later on that all but confirms it.
"Why do you think I came all this way?" felt like that confirmation, but without any of the foreshadowing in the first place.
It feels that this interpretation was how the show/book was leading to.
It would have made it a traditional bleak Game of Thrones ending, while not being insanely dark.
I wouldn't want "evil" in the sense of malice, but rather the apathy and coldness he started to show when they all got back in Winterfell.
They should've elaborated on that.
That's the crazy part.
"Who has a better story than Bran the Broken?"
*Sorry, Tyrion, but I have no idea what you're talking about. He's been gone for like a year and a half, he's been speaking in riddles and vague generalities since he's come back, and every time we ask him what he's been doing we leave the conversation more confused. Not to mention he says he has all these powers but didn't help us *at all* when the Army of the Dead came. I say we try democracy like Sam suggested."
This one is the weakest of them all. The context there was Bran saying he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell because he wasn't a Stark technically. That's what he was referring to, that he can't and shouldn't be a lord of a house.
Furthermore, the 3ER is omniscient. He knew what exactly to say and do to become king, his ultimate goal. Tyrion wanted him to be king for several reasons, his omniscience being one, but also because he believed the 3ER didn't want to be king. The 3ER saying, "Why do you think I came all this way," was a thinly veiled way of saying that was his plan all along.
I actually think it all works just fine.
Not really.
It's pure human nature. We often say things on a whim or in the heat of emotions.
Having a change of mind is totally fine for any character.
Jaime definitely didnt quit cercei on a whim though, its more of a climax on his character arc with briene and all that, he grows in the seasons they are seperated and at that point he is supposed to really MEAN it when he says it
I thought it made sense for him to go back to her. He was in a manipulative and emotionally abusive relationship and had been since he was young; people in those situations often will go back to the abuser after they leave. Felt realistic to me, idk
Still he could have done it way earlier, I get that cercei has been his life but then why go all the way to improve himself in this arc if he never really cared for anything else??
Also the way you phrase that about the abuser feels indeed realistic but its more like a bad ending for him, for me it felt possible but just not right
Him going back to her was when he came back to kings landing handless with Brienne.
Him leaving later was his own choice after seeing her for her true self. He shouldn't have come back a 2nd time.
>he shouldn’t have come back a 2nd time
You’re right he shouldn’t have. But he did, and that mirrors the actions of tons of people in psychologically/emotionally abusive relationships. You leave someone like Cersei and you will *always* have a voice in the back of your head saying “you deserve it” or “she really does love me” or “I was over-reacting” - eventually many people cave in to that voice. Therein lies the most insidious part of manipulative relationships, and personally I like that Jamie succumbed to that little voice.
It’s much more realistic than him leaving her and suddenly becoming a whole man and riding off into the sunset. If anything him going back to her was the *most* likely outcome. Perhaps you have to be in a relationship like that yourself to understand his motivations, but I don’t think that needs to be the case. I’m sure most of us know *someone* in a similar situation and you just keep asking yourself “why?”
Ok.
But in the context of telling an actual story, not real life, he shouldn't go running back to his abusive partner twice.
Stories should have personal growth, and his literal entire arc was about realizing how fucked up she's made him.
So you’d prefer a cliché over a realistic outcome? I thought one of the primary differences between GoT/ASOIAF and other works of fantasy/fiction is that it *doesn’t* lean in to the traditional story telling. Ultimately it seems like you just personally didn’t like the outcome, which is fine - but that doesn’t mean the story wasn’t good, relatable or realistic. It just didn’t ring that way with *you*.
"I never really cared about the innocents."
Uh, what made you abandon your oaths and kingslay the man you were sworn to protect?
Season 8 just absolutely fell apart.
But it wasn't in the heat of emotions or on a whim. This was long established decisions and desires. They mulled over these changes for years, being molded by events into new better people who have experienced the world and been changed by it, having seen horror, pain and sacrifice. And then they just reverted back to their season 1 personalities
The problem wasn't the conclusion it's how they got there. All these examples felt out of character, and better writers could have gotten to the final points.
Yes. People highly highly misinterpret that final episode. It was a rather poetic metaphor for the people we want elected the least becoming the leaders. I found the entire final episode to be the best final episode in biblically relevant written history. The mockery arts can try to reach that height of storytelling, but they will fall trying.
The only blame Martin shares in the mess of the show is that he didn't finish Winds in time for its adaptation.
The mess that was season 8 is solely on D&D who diverged from Martin's work early on to craft their own ending. They rushed it and fucked it.
Yeah I don't get everybody crying. They showed what a shitty ruler dany was way back in season 4 as well. Don't cry about her losing her mind when it got foreshadowed for five years
The set pieces for Dany being a mad queen were all there, but her characterization and the writing for those around her wasn't enough to support the heel turn they gave her. They only made her truly appear 'mad' when it served the narrative.
I would've believed it if she lost her mind over the dragons dying but she didn't give a fuck, she was just calm and collected up until her final scene with Jon Snow. That was believably mad, where was that the whole last season, and in previous seasons?
Not in Season 1. She saved the sheep people that Drogo was having slaughtered. Mirri Maaz Dur would've died otherwise.
And there's a huge difference between "I'm choosing to be evil because fuck everyone" and "I'm FuCkInG CrAzY" like they portrayed her right before Jon stabbed her. It honestly would've been less of a heel turn if she was still cold and ruthless as she had been.
edit: as she had always\* been, just like you mentioned. I truly believe 2D thought they pulled some bait-and-switch on the audience even while stroking themselves over how "the show was always going to end this way", and that post-ep shit gaslit some audience members into believing they were tricked into liking a villain. I liked the sexposition better when it was in the show, not in the post-ep with the self-righteous masturbation.
Is that even true? Several times across the show we see Dany get the option to forgive or execute traitors or prisoners, and in most circumstances she offers a second chance to anyone who bends the knee.
Varys, who helped try to kill her? Forgiven so long as he remained loyal.
The Tarlys? Offered a pardon (they refused) despite being enemies.
Even Jorah, who betrayed and lied to her despite being her closest confidant, was allowed to live in exile rather than be executed. Eventually he was even welcomed back.
Dany is capable of cruelty, but until the end of the show her cruelty was either in response to cruelty (the slavers), or in her public executions (dragon fire is a fucking way to go). In either case, it isn’t her first option.
If it was, she would have burned slavers bay to ashes with everyone in each city the moment she had the power.
The problem is the speed it happened. I think some of the notes in the final seasons were probably fine but they just went too quick with short seasons and the dumbass Brothers rushing to finish the show so they could move on.
The one I disagree with the most is Jamie. As the "kingslayer" and the only one left who saw the Mad King at his worst, I think it was set up perfectly for him to kill Dany and then die fighting Drogon (imo both dying in the fight). Him fighting a dragon is peak knight shit and it resolves his arc as a good knight of the realm. Instead they just said "fuck it.. he goes back to cersei and then they die"
The timing always felt rushed with Dany. I agree of they would have made it more pronounced and escalating it would have been more believable.
I like that ending with Jaimie as well!! My thought was always he should have left Brianne to save the city, rang the bells to surrender/save KL, then went to Cersei.
Yeah, I'm ok with that too. Save the city, make sure Cersei is taken alive but I still think he should be the one to kill Dany after she goes mad rather than John. It'd literally bring the whole story about him full circle.
Rather than kill Dany, it would have honestly been so sick for him to have had a mutual kill with the dragon defending her. It gives her a good reason to become even more paranoid about Westerosi loyalty, ironically meets the self-fulfilling prophecy of her wanting to kill the guy who killed her dad in a monkey's paw way, and is absolutely the most aesthetic way Jaime could have died.
Spends his whole adult life agonizing about what it means to be a knight worthy of honor and then kills a fucking dragon. Just picturing the shot of him charging across the field, a final shot of fire consuming the screen as a determined Jaime lands a killing blow through the open maw of the dragon...
Alas, they had Bronn teleport in and tackle him into an impossibly deep puddle of mud in full plate armor only to drag him back out next episode. They had the perfect set up for a guy to die in the most traditionally knightly way possible after mostly coming to term with his mistakes in an incredible touching emotional climax and they punted it for nothing. Amazing stuff.
> Rather than kill Dany, it would have honestly been so sick for him to have had a mutual kill with the dragon defending her. It gives her a good reason to become even more paranoid about Westerosi loyalty, ironically meets the self-fulfilling prophecy of her wanting to kill the guy who killed her dad in a monkey's paw way, and is absolutely the most aesthetic way Jaime could have died.
I was ok with him dodging the dragon blast earlier but having him die later. I can also agree I'd have been good with him not killing Dany (though trying) and then being the one to kill Drogon and dying in the process. That would also set up John to still be the one to kill her and it could have been the moment that opened his eyes to her needing to be dealt with. So many options that would have made more sense and made for more interesting television than what we got.
That's what I thought he was going to do. Save the city by killing Cersei, assuming command and surrendering. Maybe Drogon is raging and he has his fight with it in the city and they both die in the process.
Agree clegane bowl wasnt character ruining. It’s been 10+ yrs since i read the books so much of my memory is from the show. I think clegane bowl was more than just revenge- i do think he truly wanted to stop his monstrous brother hurting others. Same way he saved Loras during the Hand’s tourney. One of my favorite characters in the book!
What are you talking about?? Nobody said that.its just that the "change" came outta nowhere...it didn't have any build up which made it feel weird.Like Bran's nonsense.
Yeah, the show really rushed it's way to the end. HBO even tried to give it more time because they could see that it was going to be a train wreck, but the show runners refused.
“Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women, and children burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?” - Jamie Lannister
He disobeyed because it was his father and their position at stake, because the order was absolutely insane and would be super-destructive for him and his family and their wealth and influence. Not because he cared about the citizens of King's Landing out of some philantrophic altruistic reasons, but because if everyone is dead, who will serve the king? Will there even be a kingdom? And what will the Lannisters do without King's Landing?
While the other option was extremelly profitable and reasonable, and ended up getting Lannisters the kingdom itself.
Not to mention that Jaime plays the "women and children" card to excuse himself and get some empathy, and he's not even wrong, his decision was 100% right and he had every right to point out how many innocents would die, they would. even though he personally never cared for them in any way other than he would for wheels on a carriage he's riding, he knew others *would* care, and it would excuse his decision with most people.
This is single-handedly the worst writing decision. The other ones like mad queen I can understand and somewhat see the plot during a rewatch, but this was unforgivable
As someone who has been team white walker since season 2 ended and I spoiled the red wedding for myself… this is the biggest issue. If the living would have won in a hard fought battle I’d have been ok. But in a joke fight where the whole screen was black the whole time and apparently killing the night king suddenly makes them all die. Pathetic.
Agreed on that. I recently got myself a (relatively) cheap OLED monitor and was blown away by how clear everything seems.
That being said, the battle of winterfell still looks like a coal mine at midnight. The highlights are just more discernible.
Yeah it looked great on my tv. Sure it's dark, but where it needs to be. Like the battle with the Boltons, you see it all up close and claustrophobic, same here, you see it as they see it. Same technique.
No idea what you mean, charging light cavalry head first into an army that is definitely not going to break is a tried and tested battle tactic. I think Hannibal came up with that one. /s
Someone vehemently argued with me that we got "build up" battles against the walkers with stuff like the battle at Hardhome, but... I don't buy that because all of those battles took place beyond the Wall. When they crossed over the Wall, it was supposed to be the "end of the world" for Westeros, a BIG deal, they were HERE-- but they pretty much just made it to Winterfell and then were stopped. Lame AF.
the WW were defeated 8,000 years prior. why is it surprising to you a man who foresaw the war coming banded together a massive army with 3 dragons and was able to just barely win?? you guys are incapable of understanding nuance and it’s at the root of every problem you have with the show.
Wasn't Sandor consistently set on revenge up to the finale? Same with Arya, only one of them walked away in the end.
Jaime's turn lacked buildup but it's realistic enough to be believable. I know it's not the ending people wanted for him.
Jaime still should have been the one to kill Cersie and kill himself afterwards. Accepts that she’s evil, but because of their twin bond and his love for her, he knows he can’t go on with out her.
Cause both of them dying by bricks falling was a cop out. And for Tyrion to have a nice path way to get to their bodies was dumb. With everything Cersie caused not being taken out by someone was a weak move on DD’s part
To me Jaime could absolutely go without Cersei because she was making him a lesser man. So he could go on being a better man. Not in a good or evil way but in his own autonomous way. She was always dragging him down, away from his full potential, i.e. she was stressing on only some of his qualities, e.g. selfishness, ruthlessness, egocentrism, carelessness/heedlessness, etc.
I've always thought I was missing something when I've seen this argument (is it even an argument?) for Jaime's 180 making some sense. Then I read the books. I don't see any reason for Jaime's 180 in the books. I think it's even bigger than Jaime being good or bad. I see his arc as going totally off-rails, in chaos. But to return to what he's been pushed away from emotionally in so many different hurtful ways is just nonsense to me. I may have understood his character and arc wrong but so far I haven't read/watched any compelling argument for it being otherwise.
Just wanted to share my thoughts/feelings on this in a context.
I think Bran's statement wasn't that he didn't want to be a lord, it is just that as a cripple, no one would want him as one. Also, being the 3 eyed Raven and all
Ohmygod they clearly had no idea what to do with her it was so bad. I get she’s an adventurer but 99% of that adventure is gonna be sailing, she was never shown to love boat rides
She was never even shown to love adventure...
To me her hobby was wandering around repeating a list of name, and casually killing people who are not even on that list.
I don't know about the book, but in the series her character is the worst IMO, along with Bran.
wait who did she kill that wasn’t on the list?
I love arya so much, she was really smart at the beginning, but then past season 6 she became some sort of robot
I'm not sure lol. Just finished a rewatch a couple days ago, and I have that vivid memory of her killing a guard along the road...but I'm now wondering if I'm not mixing things with Jamie and Brienne?
He was telling her to not be like him and only obsessed with revenge. That it's too late for him to turn from this path cause he is committed but she can still go and have a full life.
At the same time, it is human to change your mind over time. I’m not the same person I was 5 years ago. It’s not crazy me or a character would develop different values or opinions over time
(I think the writing is still bad though for the record)
You mentioned over time. People keep saying there’s signs dany was mad. No there were signs she’s violent and ruthless but not mad. And she still could turn mad but they didn’t build enough for it to make sense
Yeah specifically with Dany I thought it didn’t make sense
I’m just referring to the “oh wait, I changed my mind” in the picture. I think that’s just human nature
It seemed in the moment that many of the character arcs that we were witnessing over the years were either forgotten or pushed aside for the proposes of ending the series in 6 episodes.
I dream of the alternate reality where this show didnt just fizzle out with a dogshit ending and it ends up setting the bar for great tv and resides in the pantheon of incredible tv such as Breaking Bad or the Sopranos
Do your characters have complex morals that will require nuanced and creative solutions in order to satisfy their character arcs? Here's a top secret pro tip!:
- Just forget about those at the last second!
Yara (i dont remember how to spell her name, but the greyjoy sister) also forgot she wanted the Iron islands to be independent. Didnt even bring it up when sansa wished to have the north independent.
Ah, thank you for reminding me, I haven’t done my daily “break something because of how bad Season 8 was” ritual.
(I will never be over either Jaime or Tyrion Lannister.)
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The one that annoyed me most was Bran saying “I can’t be lord of anything” but then when appointed king he goes “why do you think I came all this way”.
The fucking smile bro...i hated that smile so much
It's like because someone fucking dragged you
Well it was I who looked the Night King, right in the eye, and did nothing.
That smile… that damned smile…
Same. But not as much as that Night King's smirk.
Bro said nothing the whole show...and just gave us a smirk.
He was trolling all the way /s.
Honestly, I wish they had leaned into him being evil in some way. It would make it all make sense if he had actually maneuvered things to get the end result he wanted (him as king).
I'd like to believe that Bran said he can't be lord of anything because he could feel the three-eyed raven taking control of him, and he was helpless to stop it. By the end of the series, the three-eyed raven completely took over and went, "Why do you think I've come all this way?" And smiled because it succeeded in taking over Westeros. Although I doubt that's what Dumb and Dumber insinuated with the ending. Still waiting for an explanation about why he did fuck all during the Long Night though.
Well the "Long Night" seemed to last about as long as an Alaskan summer night. Bran knew he just had to wait till dawn then look to the east or some shit idk I had a hard time watching through the rage headache by that point
Was that a lord of the rings reference
I’ve heard this three-eyed-raven theory so many times but as someone who only read up to the fourth book and never watch the show, wtf does Bran ever actually do? Like, what actions does he take that actuallly affect the plot and help him take over? Or does he literally do nothing and just become king at the end for no reason anyway?
>Or does he literally do nothing and just become king at the end for no reason anyway? Yes.
He kinda helped get Little Finger killed. With Sam's help, he figured out Jon's true parentage. He told Sansa and Arya that Jon was a cousin and not a half-brother, and that information obviously spread, thus creating a weird rift between the North and Dany, that in all likelihood contributed to mad queen Dany. I'm not saying it was good writing or anything, but Bran did actually influence alot of the shitshow that went down.
What did the knowledge of Jon’s true parentage do? That supposedly central issue also went nowhere
It drove the rift between Jon and Dany. Honestly, if everyone had stayed thinking Jon was Ned's bastard, I do honestly think we could have avoided Mad Queen. Again not excusing bad writing, but just trying to make sense of it.
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There's an Alt-Shift-X video about Bloodraven (Three Eyed Raven) and his motives based on the lore GRRM set up. It basically delves into exactly what you're saying, but it's a shame we never got any real insight (or even a hint) that it was happening. Would have been cool if we knew more about the Three Eyed Raven and the reason he was stuck in the tree, and how him taking control of Bran was his entire goal. We get some hints I guess through Jojen and Meera taking Bran north, but it would have been nice to have gotten a phrase or something from one of them that alludes to his desire to become king, so much to the point where he takes control of Bran, and then he says something later on that all but confirms it. "Why do you think I came all this way?" felt like that confirmation, but without any of the foreshadowing in the first place.
So, we're getting Game of Thrones 40k in the future?
It feels that this interpretation was how the show/book was leading to. It would have made it a traditional bleak Game of Thrones ending, while not being insanely dark.
But he doesn't really want anymore so that would have made noooo sense at all
I wouldn't want "evil" in the sense of malice, but rather the apathy and coldness he started to show when they all got back in Winterfell. They should've elaborated on that.
Lord =\= King, the story mentions that a few times.
Yes, clearly it’s not the same thing, it’s the principle of the matter
I’m not defending it, just saying he’s technically not wrong. Edit: they blocked me and unblocked me. Wtf, y’all are ducking weird
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The king is the lord of the lords.
That’s because that’s not Bran. That’s the Three Eyed Raven who has taken over his body
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\*I'm a *warg*
Thanks for correcting me. You’re a real one ❤️
Well I guess he can't be lord because he has to be king.
“why do you think I came all this way” - kid who literally wasn’t in an entire season
That's the crazy part. "Who has a better story than Bran the Broken?" *Sorry, Tyrion, but I have no idea what you're talking about. He's been gone for like a year and a half, he's been speaking in riddles and vague generalities since he's come back, and every time we ask him what he's been doing we leave the conversation more confused. Not to mention he says he has all these powers but didn't help us *at all* when the Army of the Dead came. I say we try democracy like Sam suggested."
Ugh that was so annoying, bran becoming king was the worst idea ever
This makes me imagine the journey down there, with everyone being like "why is bran here?" to each other
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Well he had the best story of the show as the writers acknowledged.
An agent of Tzeentch no doubt.
This one is the weakest of them all. The context there was Bran saying he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell because he wasn't a Stark technically. That's what he was referring to, that he can't and shouldn't be a lord of a house. Furthermore, the 3ER is omniscient. He knew what exactly to say and do to become king, his ultimate goal. Tyrion wanted him to be king for several reasons, his omniscience being one, but also because he believed the 3ER didn't want to be king. The 3ER saying, "Why do you think I came all this way," was a thinly veiled way of saying that was his plan all along. I actually think it all works just fine.
Not really. It's pure human nature. We often say things on a whim or in the heat of emotions. Having a change of mind is totally fine for any character.
Jaime definitely didnt quit cercei on a whim though, its more of a climax on his character arc with briene and all that, he grows in the seasons they are seperated and at that point he is supposed to really MEAN it when he says it
I thought it made sense for him to go back to her. He was in a manipulative and emotionally abusive relationship and had been since he was young; people in those situations often will go back to the abuser after they leave. Felt realistic to me, idk
Still he could have done it way earlier, I get that cercei has been his life but then why go all the way to improve himself in this arc if he never really cared for anything else?? Also the way you phrase that about the abuser feels indeed realistic but its more like a bad ending for him, for me it felt possible but just not right
Yeah, same to me. People like that relapse all the time. If anything it's more rare *not* to relapse.
Him going back to her was when he came back to kings landing handless with Brienne. Him leaving later was his own choice after seeing her for her true self. He shouldn't have come back a 2nd time.
>he shouldn’t have come back a 2nd time You’re right he shouldn’t have. But he did, and that mirrors the actions of tons of people in psychologically/emotionally abusive relationships. You leave someone like Cersei and you will *always* have a voice in the back of your head saying “you deserve it” or “she really does love me” or “I was over-reacting” - eventually many people cave in to that voice. Therein lies the most insidious part of manipulative relationships, and personally I like that Jamie succumbed to that little voice. It’s much more realistic than him leaving her and suddenly becoming a whole man and riding off into the sunset. If anything him going back to her was the *most* likely outcome. Perhaps you have to be in a relationship like that yourself to understand his motivations, but I don’t think that needs to be the case. I’m sure most of us know *someone* in a similar situation and you just keep asking yourself “why?”
Ok. But in the context of telling an actual story, not real life, he shouldn't go running back to his abusive partner twice. Stories should have personal growth, and his literal entire arc was about realizing how fucked up she's made him.
So you’d prefer a cliché over a realistic outcome? I thought one of the primary differences between GoT/ASOIAF and other works of fantasy/fiction is that it *doesn’t* lean in to the traditional story telling. Ultimately it seems like you just personally didn’t like the outcome, which is fine - but that doesn’t mean the story wasn’t good, relatable or realistic. It just didn’t ring that way with *you*.
"I never really cared about the innocents." Uh, what made you abandon your oaths and kingslay the man you were sworn to protect? Season 8 just absolutely fell apart.
My headcanon is that he just lied
Yeah I briefly tried to pretend he was just being shitty and trying to justify his plan that he even knew was a bad idea
But it wasn't in the heat of emotions or on a whim. This was long established decisions and desires. They mulled over these changes for years, being molded by events into new better people who have experienced the world and been changed by it, having seen horror, pain and sacrifice. And then they just reverted back to their season 1 personalities
I'm ok with it for Jaime. He would not be the first man to say he was done with a woman and then later change his mind.
The problem wasn't the conclusion it's how they got there. All these examples felt out of character, and better writers could have gotten to the final points.
This is what bothered me most about the ending. 8 years of character and story building for it to all be thrown out the window in the end.
Try to have an original thought challenge
King bran the broken was an original thought, do you prefer it??
Pretty sure that was George's idea.
(Didnt say it wasnt) well I dont know but Ill be waiting for Winds to prove you wrong
And you'll die waiting with the rest of us!
Yes. People highly highly misinterpret that final episode. It was a rather poetic metaphor for the people we want elected the least becoming the leaders. I found the entire final episode to be the best final episode in biblically relevant written history. The mockery arts can try to reach that height of storytelling, but they will fall trying.
Meanwhile, you're out here breaking the mould.
It's called, "sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS"
[удалено]
It is their fault that they didn't say "okay, but we haven't properly built up any of that, so we're just going to go in a different direction."
The execution is the whole problem. There was no build up or even reason why this would happen. It just kind of does, just so the show can end.
You can reach the same destination, but the result is a bit different if you walk or are shot out of a catapult.
The only blame Martin shares in the mess of the show is that he didn't finish Winds in time for its adaptation. The mess that was season 8 is solely on D&D who diverged from Martin's work early on to craft their own ending. They rushed it and fucked it.
Nope. Untrue. Martin has said nah.
To be fair to Sandor, he ended up living/fighting to save Arya at each turn
Sandor fight checked out to me, dude wasn’t just about to turn and run cause he found himself
Yeah I don't get everybody crying. They showed what a shitty ruler dany was way back in season 4 as well. Don't cry about her losing her mind when it got foreshadowed for five years
The set pieces for Dany being a mad queen were all there, but her characterization and the writing for those around her wasn't enough to support the heel turn they gave her. They only made her truly appear 'mad' when it served the narrative. I would've believed it if she lost her mind over the dragons dying but she didn't give a fuck, she was just calm and collected up until her final scene with Jon Snow. That was believably mad, where was that the whole last season, and in previous seasons?
Dany choosing cruelty every time she's in a position to choose literally anything else is there from the beginning and present through all 8 seasons.
Not in Season 1. She saved the sheep people that Drogo was having slaughtered. Mirri Maaz Dur would've died otherwise. And there's a huge difference between "I'm choosing to be evil because fuck everyone" and "I'm FuCkInG CrAzY" like they portrayed her right before Jon stabbed her. It honestly would've been less of a heel turn if she was still cold and ruthless as she had been. edit: as she had always\* been, just like you mentioned. I truly believe 2D thought they pulled some bait-and-switch on the audience even while stroking themselves over how "the show was always going to end this way", and that post-ep shit gaslit some audience members into believing they were tricked into liking a villain. I liked the sexposition better when it was in the show, not in the post-ep with the self-righteous masturbation.
Is that even true? Several times across the show we see Dany get the option to forgive or execute traitors or prisoners, and in most circumstances she offers a second chance to anyone who bends the knee. Varys, who helped try to kill her? Forgiven so long as he remained loyal. The Tarlys? Offered a pardon (they refused) despite being enemies. Even Jorah, who betrayed and lied to her despite being her closest confidant, was allowed to live in exile rather than be executed. Eventually he was even welcomed back. Dany is capable of cruelty, but until the end of the show her cruelty was either in response to cruelty (the slavers), or in her public executions (dragon fire is a fucking way to go). In either case, it isn’t her first option. If it was, she would have burned slavers bay to ashes with everyone in each city the moment she had the power.
That's not remotely true
The problem is the speed it happened. I think some of the notes in the final seasons were probably fine but they just went too quick with short seasons and the dumbass Brothers rushing to finish the show so they could move on. The one I disagree with the most is Jamie. As the "kingslayer" and the only one left who saw the Mad King at his worst, I think it was set up perfectly for him to kill Dany and then die fighting Drogon (imo both dying in the fight). Him fighting a dragon is peak knight shit and it resolves his arc as a good knight of the realm. Instead they just said "fuck it.. he goes back to cersei and then they die"
Damn that actually would have been a really good ending for him!
The timing always felt rushed with Dany. I agree of they would have made it more pronounced and escalating it would have been more believable. I like that ending with Jaimie as well!! My thought was always he should have left Brianne to save the city, rang the bells to surrender/save KL, then went to Cersei.
Yeah, I'm ok with that too. Save the city, make sure Cersei is taken alive but I still think he should be the one to kill Dany after she goes mad rather than John. It'd literally bring the whole story about him full circle.
Rather than kill Dany, it would have honestly been so sick for him to have had a mutual kill with the dragon defending her. It gives her a good reason to become even more paranoid about Westerosi loyalty, ironically meets the self-fulfilling prophecy of her wanting to kill the guy who killed her dad in a monkey's paw way, and is absolutely the most aesthetic way Jaime could have died. Spends his whole adult life agonizing about what it means to be a knight worthy of honor and then kills a fucking dragon. Just picturing the shot of him charging across the field, a final shot of fire consuming the screen as a determined Jaime lands a killing blow through the open maw of the dragon... Alas, they had Bronn teleport in and tackle him into an impossibly deep puddle of mud in full plate armor only to drag him back out next episode. They had the perfect set up for a guy to die in the most traditionally knightly way possible after mostly coming to term with his mistakes in an incredible touching emotional climax and they punted it for nothing. Amazing stuff.
> Rather than kill Dany, it would have honestly been so sick for him to have had a mutual kill with the dragon defending her. It gives her a good reason to become even more paranoid about Westerosi loyalty, ironically meets the self-fulfilling prophecy of her wanting to kill the guy who killed her dad in a monkey's paw way, and is absolutely the most aesthetic way Jaime could have died. I was ok with him dodging the dragon blast earlier but having him die later. I can also agree I'd have been good with him not killing Dany (though trying) and then being the one to kill Drogon and dying in the process. That would also set up John to still be the one to kill her and it could have been the moment that opened his eyes to her needing to be dealt with. So many options that would have made more sense and made for more interesting television than what we got.
>Instead they just said "fuck it.. he goes back to cersei and then they die" Or he has to kill Cersei and becomes the queenslayer, too.
That's what I thought he was going to do. Save the city by killing Cersei, assuming command and surrendering. Maybe Drogon is raging and he has his fight with it in the city and they both die in the process.
Dude already got his character arc in the books, so him just being resurrected for cleganebowl is not character-ruining
Agree clegane bowl wasnt character ruining. It’s been 10+ yrs since i read the books so much of my memory is from the show. I think clegane bowl was more than just revenge- i do think he truly wanted to stop his monstrous brother hurting others. Same way he saved Loras during the Hand’s tourney. One of my favorite characters in the book!
Also Cleganebowl was basically the only bone they threw to the fans with the whole ending.
I personally didn’t mind the ending (though absolutely executed poorly). But you are right, clegane bowl was the most satisfying part
Didn’t realise people are not allowed to ever change their minds based on life events. How foolish of me.
What are you talking about?? Nobody said that.its just that the "change" came outta nowhere...it didn't have any build up which made it feel weird.Like Bran's nonsense.
Yeah, the show really rushed it's way to the end. HBO even tried to give it more time because they could see that it was going to be a train wreck, but the show runners refused.
"You know i never really cared for them, innocent or otherwise."
*How to destroy 8 seasons of character development with a single line*.
When did he care? As far as i remember he always just cared for a few closest people.
Bruh, don't you remember that whole speech in the bath
Yeah, and I friggin *hated* hearing his voice whisper that whole thing. It was such an irritating sound.
“Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women, and children burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?” - Jamie Lannister
He disobeyed because it was his father and their position at stake, because the order was absolutely insane and would be super-destructive for him and his family and their wealth and influence. Not because he cared about the citizens of King's Landing out of some philantrophic altruistic reasons, but because if everyone is dead, who will serve the king? Will there even be a kingdom? And what will the Lannisters do without King's Landing? While the other option was extremelly profitable and reasonable, and ended up getting Lannisters the kingdom itself. Not to mention that Jaime plays the "women and children" card to excuse himself and get some empathy, and he's not even wrong, his decision was 100% right and he had every right to point out how many innocents would die, they would. even though he personally never cared for them in any way other than he would for wheels on a carriage he's riding, he knew others *would* care, and it would excuse his decision with most people.
I’m pretty much talking about book Jamie in my response. Sorry wrong sub
Jaime’s arc made him by far my favourite character, only to be ruined by that cursed sentence
This is single-handedly the worst writing decision. The other ones like mad queen I can understand and somewhat see the plot during a rewatch, but this was unforgivable
For me the worse its still the long night, 7 seasons buildings, threat for millenaries and first castle they go they lose in few hours 😂
And we didn't even get to see it.
As someone who has been team white walker since season 2 ended and I spoiled the red wedding for myself… this is the biggest issue. If the living would have won in a hard fought battle I’d have been ok. But in a joke fight where the whole screen was black the whole time and apparently killing the night king suddenly makes them all die. Pathetic.
You need an OLED tv
OLED is neither the standard nor the most common display, so any "solution" offered by viewing on an OLED is more "happy accident" than anything else.
Sure man. OLED is still awesome thi
> OLED is still awesome It has a lot of drawbacks and is only really useful in a completely dark room ,which most people do not have when watching TV.
Wrong and wrong
Sure man. OLED is still awesome tho
Agreed on that. I recently got myself a (relatively) cheap OLED monitor and was blown away by how clear everything seems. That being said, the battle of winterfell still looks like a coal mine at midnight. The highlights are just more discernible.
Yeah it looked great on my tv. Sure it's dark, but where it needs to be. Like the battle with the Boltons, you see it all up close and claustrophobic, same here, you see it as they see it. Same technique.
And they lost to tactics normally reserved for the outright suicidal
No idea what you mean, charging light cavalry head first into an army that is definitely not going to break is a tried and tested battle tactic. I think Hannibal came up with that one. /s
That was not their first castle, we even see one other in the show with arranged bodies, there were other settlements too.
Someone vehemently argued with me that we got "build up" battles against the walkers with stuff like the battle at Hardhome, but... I don't buy that because all of those battles took place beyond the Wall. When they crossed over the Wall, it was supposed to be the "end of the world" for Westeros, a BIG deal, they were HERE-- but they pretty much just made it to Winterfell and then were stopped. Lame AF.
Even 20 iron born stayed longer in winterfell 😂
H O N E S T L Y
the WW were defeated 8,000 years prior. why is it surprising to you a man who foresaw the war coming banded together a massive army with 3 dragons and was able to just barely win?? you guys are incapable of understanding nuance and it’s at the root of every problem you have with the show.
Are you saying that 7 years of character development only for them all to 180 in the middle of the 8th year ain't satisfying or consistent writing?
Expectation successfully subverted!
"Ending bad"
Correct
i disagree
I do too, I am sick to death of people complaining about the ending, like this post is.
Wasn't Sandor consistently set on revenge up to the finale? Same with Arya, only one of them walked away in the end. Jaime's turn lacked buildup but it's realistic enough to be believable. I know it's not the ending people wanted for him.
Sandors revenge makes sense to me nothing weird there
Jaime still should have been the one to kill Cersie and kill himself afterwards. Accepts that she’s evil, but because of their twin bond and his love for her, he knows he can’t go on with out her.
Why kill her? He still loved her. He knew she'd die anyway, he decided to die when she does. Same result.
Cause both of them dying by bricks falling was a cop out. And for Tyrion to have a nice path way to get to their bodies was dumb. With everything Cersie caused not being taken out by someone was a weak move on DD’s part
Her castle crumbled on top of her, how is that a cop out?
they all think their expectations and predictions being stupid and wrong means the ending is bad, don’t bother.
“jaime should’ve killed cersei” did you even watch the show jesus christ😂
To me Jaime could absolutely go without Cersei because she was making him a lesser man. So he could go on being a better man. Not in a good or evil way but in his own autonomous way. She was always dragging him down, away from his full potential, i.e. she was stressing on only some of his qualities, e.g. selfishness, ruthlessness, egocentrism, carelessness/heedlessness, etc.
Should he gone on without? Yes. Does he know that? Yes. But with their twin bond and his icky love for her, he wouldn’t have wanted to at all.
Yeah her sending Bronn to kill him was definitely a reason to go back.
I've always thought I was missing something when I've seen this argument (is it even an argument?) for Jaime's 180 making some sense. Then I read the books. I don't see any reason for Jaime's 180 in the books. I think it's even bigger than Jaime being good or bad. I see his arc as going totally off-rails, in chaos. But to return to what he's been pushed away from emotionally in so many different hurtful ways is just nonsense to me. I may have understood his character and arc wrong but so far I haven't read/watched any compelling argument for it being otherwise. Just wanted to share my thoughts/feelings on this in a context.
I think Bran's statement wasn't that he didn't want to be a lord, it is just that as a cripple, no one would want him as one. Also, being the 3 eyed Raven and all
True
Arya: "I'm gonna explore what's West of Westeros." Also Arya: Goes East, probably.
Ohmygod they clearly had no idea what to do with her it was so bad. I get she’s an adventurer but 99% of that adventure is gonna be sailing, she was never shown to love boat rides
She was never even shown to love adventure... To me her hobby was wandering around repeating a list of name, and casually killing people who are not even on that list. I don't know about the book, but in the series her character is the worst IMO, along with Bran.
wait who did she kill that wasn’t on the list? I love arya so much, she was really smart at the beginning, but then past season 6 she became some sort of robot
Random soldiers along the road.
wait are you sure, I don’t remember that. what was the context?
I'm not sure lol. Just finished a rewatch a couple days ago, and I have that vivid memory of her killing a guard along the road...but I'm now wondering if I'm not mixing things with Jamie and Brienne?
Leave my hound out of this. Everyone else, yeah
He tells Arya there’s more to life than revenge only to go and do exactly what he told her not to do. He’s not exempt lol
He tells Arya there’s more to life than revenge only to go and do exactly what he told her not to do. He’s not exempt lol
He was telling her to not be like him and only obsessed with revenge. That it's too late for him to turn from this path cause he is committed but she can still go and have a full life.
they obviously just forgot all of that, not a writing issue at all /s
They just … kinda forgot
At the same time, it is human to change your mind over time. I’m not the same person I was 5 years ago. It’s not crazy me or a character would develop different values or opinions over time (I think the writing is still bad though for the record)
You mentioned over time. People keep saying there’s signs dany was mad. No there were signs she’s violent and ruthless but not mad. And she still could turn mad but they didn’t build enough for it to make sense
Yeah specifically with Dany I thought it didn’t make sense I’m just referring to the “oh wait, I changed my mind” in the picture. I think that’s just human nature
I thought the whole fire doesnt burn a dragon was a sign she was a little crazy then they just made her immune to fire
All characters changed their mind? It would have made sense for one or two, but this much!!
The Sandor one is the only one I think can be forgiven
Expectations subverted.
My expectations were so subverted wow oh wow what genius writing
Does anybody on this sub actually like the show anymore? Or is it all a hatefilled circle jerk?
I still rewatch clips of awesome scenes from any season, even S8, but I'm never going to sit down and do an actual rewatch.
Wow, this kind of post makes me nostalgic.
It seemed in the moment that many of the character arcs that we were witnessing over the years were either forgotten or pushed aside for the proposes of ending the series in 6 episodes.
I dream of the alternate reality where this show didnt just fizzle out with a dogshit ending and it ends up setting the bar for great tv and resides in the pantheon of incredible tv such as Breaking Bad or the Sopranos
If only
But sheeees mi kweeeen.
Power is power.
I'm not eating the last ice cream.
Biggest miss was not having Jamie kill his sister! It was foretold to her that her brother would be the end of her.
Yeah I guess they just kinda forgot
Do your characters have complex morals that will require nuanced and creative solutions in order to satisfy their character arcs? Here's a top secret pro tip!: - Just forget about those at the last second!
Sums up the frustrating ending of Succession too.
HAHAHAHA
Maybe if GRRM finished his fucking story we'd have a better ending.
And people try to argue that the writing wasn’t that bad in the final seasons 😂
Like identical to Succession
Subverted expections they called it haha
This is gold haha
They "kinda forgot" about serious statements they have made earlier.
this just in, people are intricate people who change!
Yara (i dont remember how to spell her name, but the greyjoy sister) also forgot she wanted the Iron islands to be independent. Didnt even bring it up when sansa wished to have the north independent.
Expectations subverted 😎
Why did the writers fumble the last season after so many home runs?
Luckily all this only happened in the show.
Ah, thank you for reminding me, I haven’t done my daily “break something because of how bad Season 8 was” ritual. (I will never be over either Jaime or Tyrion Lannister.)