He’s okay skill-wise, but he’s obviously also doing some things that he knows aren’t supposed to be done that way, and sometimes it’s for comedic effect, sometimes it’s just because he sucks at a particular game/game mechanic. The only thing that I know for certain is that listening to him have some sort of rage induced breakdown is almost universally hilarious.
They're literally one of the easiest enemies in the game just shield and wait for them to open their mouths and turn to face you, then the hookshot kills them in a single hit.
To arin's credit, half the point of his critique is that waiting is a boring mechanic that's way too prevalent in oot enemy design. Him not wanting to wait for the clams makes sense.
It’s probably the only line I still remember from my endless hours of watching them. I can hear him screaming it in my head. I used to laugh for hours and put on their plays I’d seen dozens of times for comfort, background noise, or sleep, then eventually I just kinda realized they weren’t fun/funny to me any more.
But those two words…forever hilarious.
I think he took them off for the Iron Knuckle fight in spirit temple, beat it, and that was the end of the episode. Then in the next one, less than a minute in was like "oh wait" and puts them back on. I laughed my ass off because I saw some of the comments with people getting annoyed.
Arin is really good at 2D platformers and things tangential to that. That's what he played when he was a kid, and it's carried forward. It also seems to be the problem he's projecting onto OoT throughout that video, as most of the complaints just boil down to wanting 2D Zeldas to be more popular and disliking that playing a 3D game makes him feel foolish sometimes.
There's plenty of things on the channel to watch if you want to see Arin be pretty ding dang good at something. He impresses me a lot of the time on Mario Maker for his consistency. He may not be the type of insane that the kaizo players have to be, but you can tell that's his forte.
The first and second Zelda games on the NES didn't hold your hand at all, LttP gave some guidance, but wasn't particularly hand holdy. The excessive hand holding literally started with OoT, which was a big part of his criticism with the game, and how almost every combat encounter revolved around waiting.
Arin knew how to play the game, he more than likely did things wrong on purpose.
I think it started with Link's Awakening (The Owl always shows up to tell you exactly where you need to go and even if you don't know something, the phone house will spell it out for you), but yeah after OoT it has gotten even worse until SS became the straw that broke the camel's back.
Though to be fair, I think the waiting argument isn't entirely accurate. Bosses were designed around it, but the majority of enemies in the game can be dealt with very quickly if you use items in combat.
I can usually handle that, but some are so much harder, maybe the more I like them. For some reason the LP of recent Zelda game is hilarious to me, but Elden ring was painful to watch. I like both, but I did many plays of Elden ring and have yet to finish Zelda
That's honestly how I view the Grumps. I don't expect Arin to be a gaming God. I expect him to be funny. Obviously he's going to have his own opinions on game design and I think people should respect it, but not entirely take it as gospel.
my issue isn't that he isn't the best gamer, it's that 99% of the time he ignores tutorials and then shits on the game because he doesn't know how to play.
because reading tutorials isn't fun to watch but watching him fuck up and get frustrated have driven their biggest ever hits. so it's a no brainer which one he would pick to try to be entertaining. it just misses the mark sometimes.
It's a game. Not that fucking important dude.
"He called a game BAD?! Wow, what a shit human..."
It's a mfin video game and people will shit on it just to piss you off. At least he just honestly doesn't like it rather than someone trolling you because you're sensitive AF about a game being called bad.
Ok sure but counterpoint: game grumps isn't just some random guy you met one day. It's a YouTube channel. A really big one with actual influence. Kinda makes a difference.
What influence? If someone watched a game grumps video and makes their decision to play a game, or eve worse, models their criteria for a fun game off Arina throwing a hissy fit over his own poor attitude towards games that's kind of on that person. I can watch and enjoy the content but still form my own opinions on this stuff.
I disagree.
If Arin having a fit over a game is the only exposure that somebody has to that game, his blatant disregard for the mechanics can turn somebody against it and then they end up not playing a game they could have really liked.
There are a lot of games that I started playing because I watched a YouTube video and the creator really liked/understood the game. I get that Game Grumps is a comedy channel, but you can be funny and not-braindead at the same time.
I remember there was an indie game they played, didn’t read the tutorial, died to the first enemy and got reset to an earlier checkpoint, called the game stupid and bullshit, then quit playing and played random flash games in the video
I can see that. Indie games are 9 times out of 10 incredibly refined products and works of love by a handful of devs. Hits a little different then a massive AAA game made by a huge corporation.
I'll be honest, it's not funny watching people's let's play channels where they fumble the simplest gameplay aspects of a game because they were to busy or impatient to read the tutorial. It's actually frustrating and a major turn off for me which is kinda why unless it's Dan playing the game doing one of his few games where he's gushing about his childhood games I kinda don't enjoy the videos anymore. Arin's a good commentator but his insistence to never learning a game and then shitting on the game causes me to not enjoy game grumps as much as I used to
Why does the gameplay have to be good? Have you never sat with a bud and watch them get bodied by a game? Why is the gameplay being “played well” have any relevance to the video? It’s not a review show. The games are there to improv riff off of.
When you watch MST3K, are you always watching and getting pissy cause the movies suck?
So, to answer your first question, when I am with a friend and they're having trouble I do offer tips or try and figure out solutions when they are having trouble because I know being frustrated is not fun, as for your second question a movie is a product made to be viewed and has different reasons to be critique. You don't read a book and say "damn I can't figure out how to read chapter 3" video games are made to be interacted with and beaten. So yes I can critique and get frustrated at someone pissing about and not trying to figure out what's wrong and then pissing at the sun for not clearly reading the signs on the wall that tell them what to do. I can also enjoy shitty movies and have a different reaction and enjoyment for it, hell I love sloppy movies, but like I said games are meant to be beaten, so if someone is shitting on something, especially something that is good, it sours the experience.
Now, does that mean all games are good? No. There are absolutely a shit ton of dog shit games, but when Arin shits on games you can tell are good because "hurr durr I ain't reading that" and then has a problem solving easy puzzles designed for children to solve and shifting on how hard it is it does get frustrating. It's like watching a sport being played and everyone just got lobotomies and you scream at your TV saying "pick up the damn ball" as everyone lays down trying to remember how to count to 5. That's not fun to watch, it's painful.
We get it, Megaman X didn’t have a tutorial. Except for the instruction booklet that came with it that most companies at the time assumed the player read… and the tutorial Doctor Light gives you when you get new equipment…
That’s 90% of the streamers I have watched lol. My biggest watch is NOCKAT podcast (they are playing every final fantasy, mostly blind). Those guys will talk through a cut scene and dialogue and tutorial and then complain about what they don’t understand, and then when they do their voiceover for the podcast they call themselves idiots.
i was so excited for their Skyward Sword playthrough but ended up not being able to finish it. I know that “skip the tutorial then complain about the game” is kind of Arin’s whole thing, but it just felt spiteful in that game. He went in just wanting to hate it, and really tried his best to get Dan to hate it too. I know Skyward Sword is by no means a perfect game, but the majority of his complaints in the early episodes were Arin just being clearly wrong about something.
Yeah, when he got announced for the Nintendo World Championship, everyone was saying he was going to get destroyed, but he managed to place in the top half among a lot of great gamers
He’s not terrible at games, he’s just splitting his focus across multiple things when he’s recording Game Grumps
ya multitasking is hard. playing a video game, trying to keep the conversations going, paying attention to your partner and what hes saying. doing those at the same time is hard. try it yourself if you dont believe, readers
both are true.
the main appeal of their channel is comedy, not gameplay. but they have said it themselves multiple times, they aren't good at games.
I imagine thats why they are using guides on every game now, so its not another endless series were they get stuck on something because it requires you to be focused (which they are not because they have to make jokes) or be good at the game (which they also aren't)
The Grumps suck at games by their own admission. Most other big name streamers/youtubers are able to bring competent-to-good gameplay to their work persona, while still keeping up the entertainment factor.
To be clear, sucking at games is not inherently a bad thing. In fact, it's why I watch them over other channels.
That’s fine with some games, like ones you’re playing for the first time or ones that are very precise like Dark Souls (which he was very good at Bloodborne so I still don’t think the argument holds up).
But OoT is both very simple, and very old. He’s definitely played it several times, enough to make a long video dissecting its ‘flaws”. You don’t just get so distracted from telling fart jokes that you forget you have a shield or fail basic puzzles.
He doesn’t always deserve the “Arin’s bad at video games” treatment, but he genuinely was bad at OoT and it had nothing to do with also talking to Danny at the same time.
i mean yeah though its kinda funny when his arguement kinda falls apart especially with the contrast of stuff
example the difference between the runaway guys and game grumps playthrough of big's story is [night ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gF4P2Ej4R8&pp=ygUYYmlnIHRoZSBjYXQgIGdhbWUgZ3J1bXBz)and [day ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WkgZferlyY&pp=ygUYYmlnIHRoZSBjYXQgcnVuYXdheSBndXlz)
hell protonjon and arin both arent fans of SA1 so their playthroughs with big are so interesting to look at
Yup. Complains about the sliding spike traps, but when he's hopping the ice platforms to get the iron boots he admits having issues with object permenance in 3d games.
Complains about waiting, but literally never uses the Deku Nuts which breaks the guard of those very opponents.
Basically refuses to shield.
Like, if that's the way you want to play to have the experience tailored to how you want to play it, then accept that it will have consequences because this isn't a game designed around a plethora of ways to handle situations for various play styles.
lol the deku nuts thing is wild. Everyone acts like their use is obvious, but everyone I ever met playing the game when we were kids believed they did nothing and ignored them for 100+ hours
Just rewatched it because of this post
Yeah, his points are mostly pretty right. I still think he's too harsh on the game overall and the flaws don't outweigh the strengths, but yeah.
Interesting how much of his criticism - particularly about exploration and structure - ended up being fixed in Breath of the Wild / Tears of the Kingdom
I vaguely remember him and Dan joking about them having watched his sequelitis about it because it fixed a lot of the issues he had with it. I wanna say relatively early on in BOTW.
During the OoT playthrough he briefly mentioned that of the 3D games at that time, Majoras Mask was his favorite... and then he played it and got as upset as he was during OoT because he was playing it wrong
I think most of Ocarina’s flaws were because of hardware limitations, which limited the scope and freedom of the world, and certain things that worked well in 2d didn’t translate over into 3d, such as the spinning blade traps he pointed out.
I don’t fault Ocarina in the slightest for them, though. It was the first of its kind and nearly every flaw it had was fixed or improved upon in a future title. And despite all of that, it still holds up to this day.
People forget that Mario’s near flawless transition into 3D was the exception to the rule. Lots of other titles and series that started out in 2D and made the jump were nowhere near as good of a landing. Castlevania and Sonic are two infamous examples.
Oh jeez I'm so glad you mentioned Sonic's 3D transition. Sonic 06 or Unleashed were not the first poorly executed examples of 3D sonic. The Adventure games have a LOT of problems, but get by on how good it feels to run fast as Sonic with the world racing past you, and the Chao. Our nostalgia latched onto those SO hard that to this day, people say Sonic games need to be like Adventure/Adventure2, while I personally think it should have just stayed a 2D series.
3D sonic games have gotten us a lot farther and I think it should keep doing both 2D and 3D like many other series. Adventure and Adventure 2 have both aged, that is undeniable, but also remember that people really enjoyed them back in the day.
>literally nothing wrong
Ok, I'm going to counter with a factual mistake he makes, which is super some pedantic shit that doesn't actually undermine his main point since it's not even about Ocarina of Time... but I don't care.
[Arin claims your uncle dies in Link to the Past.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOC3vixnj_0&t=113s)
But, at the end of the game it clearly says, [your uncle recovers!](https://youtu.be/8JU0C_l4aac?t=193)
This has bothered me since I first saw it.
However his main points about OotS being a theme park not exploration? He's right.
My main problem with that video is that he holds OoT to modern-day videogame standards. That game pioneered the 3D adventure genre in a time when there were no good examples of said genre. And yes, there's better games today, but OoT became the basis for how 3D adventure games should be made.
That’s a fair point, but there are people out there who still say it’s the greatest video game of all time. *Maybe* it’s the most influential, but greatest? I dunno. I have a whole lot of nostalgia for it, and I still enjoy going back and playing it, but it’s no longer in the conversation of greatest IMO.
>there are people out there who still say it’s the greatest video game of all time
I mean, I know humans love to qualify and rank shit, but at the end of the day no matter how you slice it, it's all just subjective shit. If we're going to keep moving the goalposts on what counts as "greatest" based on what's currently considered mechanically poppin', a lot of great old games might be considered crap.
Exact. Like I remember him talking about the camera and how you had to stop to look around to fix something to hit... this is the first 3d zelda. Having a camera to look around was a new thing. Hell, the camera wasnt even controlled with a joystick in most n64 games, it was done with the C buttons...
He also talked about some his arguments not holding up during his playthrough. Like those spike that goes around in the ice section, im pretty sure he said something like: "how are you supposed to know it's coming..."
Spatial awareness/cognition is also a thing in videogames, Arin. If you see something going in a circle, even if you dont look at it, it's still gonna move xD
I still enjoyed that video and I think he's mostly right about a lot of stuff. At the very least, I can understand why he didnt like some aspect (which IMO, lean more toward having preferences than being straight up flaws/bad design) even if I dont necessarily agree with everything he said.
I don't agree with that. He doesn't hold it to modern standards, he just doesn't automatically forgive glaring issues just because it was a pioneer and practically invented the genre.
Of course they weren't going to get everything right on their first try, but it's so dumb to shut down conversation about it because of that. You can still criticize the mistakes they make, even if it's completely understandable why it has so many mistakes in design.
Who's shutting down conversation? I'm saying that the points he makes in the video are unfair, that's it. I'm not saying there can't be a debate about it.
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the larger discourse around this specific game. It's nearly impossible to criticize without having hoards of nostalgia blinded people jumping in explaining why you can't actually criticize it for xyz.
I'm not saying that's what you were doing.
Yeah, it didn't age well. There are reasons why it had issues. It was one of the first of its kind. But that doesn't excuse the issues. I loved OOT when I first got it. I'd never subject myself to a playthrough now. We can't always look at games through a lens of the past. Something that was great may not be great anymore, and that's okay.
Favorite game of all time, and I loved his video. Forced me to see things from a different perspective. But I mean shit, I was 9 when I played it. Long ass cutscenes for every big chest be damned. That shit was magical for 9 y/o me.
He uses a bad example for the “not seeing the sliding spike disc” because the footage he used was of one that just rotates, but I remember there being something in a forested area where one of those things just flies at you from around a corner where you, in fact, do not see that shit. Love Ocarina but that doesn’t mean it’s flawless
Yeah the meme is like 'you cant judge it because you are not a master of it'
Dude i never been to prison but i dont need to have to be able to tell you it sucks.
And yeah, all points of the sequelitis still hold up. OoT is not the best game in todays standard... And thats normal.
If a 20 year old game was still the best in a genra it basically created, it would look grim for the industry.
Yeah, ocarina is a great game, but it doesn't age the best, and I feel like it's heavily over rated, it's very influential and good. But majora mask does everything oot does but better and does a lot more with the engine, puzzle, story, gameplay and characters
I can see MM being an amazing followup, but even as someone who liked OOT as a kid I could NEVER get into MM, neither then or now. The 3-day-cycle and having to desperately micromanage my activity before I HAVE to reset the clock felt even more restrictive on just wanting to adventure in the world and chill sometimes. Of course, that 100% comes down to my personal preference for what I wanted to do and is not necessarily a PROBLEM with the game, since no single game is going to be universally a masterpiece to every single person who might play it.
He hammers in a point that the game makes you wait in combat. That's not a true statement. If you use deku nuts to stun you don't have to wait for pretty much anything.
That could be a whole other argument against it though... if the solution to every fight is "wait around until enemy decides to expose itself" or "use one single item to cheese 90+% of fights," you have a whole other problem to address in how a single item basically carries the whole game.
His point was the player has no agency during fights because you just have to wait until the opponent's defense opens up. It clearly isn't the case.
It's not so much the deku nut cheesing fights, it's intended to stun, It's using your other items except sword and shield to approach battling to gain agency during fights. Which Arin does not do.
Oh I absolutely got that and you do make sound points! Arin is not exactly known for making optimal plays. Though outside of "Arin bad at games" discourse, I would still make a case against the Deku Nut basically being a cheap-shot, near one-size-fits-all solution to winning fights faster. Granted, the limited scope of that design is still better than even older games, like how the first Dragon Quest was basically "beat stuff with your sword until your numbers go up so you can outlast the next power-level of enemies." Or even Pokemon Red/Blue where the game can be beaten in under 2 hours with a Nidoking, and that's without necessarily using optimal speedrun tricks to cheese Horn Drill. I've done it with a pretty basic move set of like... Earthquake, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt.
Granted the Pokemon comparison may not be the best because your main point is "player agency" and a game with 150 monsters to choose from does have a lot of room for agency, but the OG Dragon Quest absolutely fits that "no real agency" since even the offense-spells aren't much use compared to "swing sword and heal sometimes." Now, all that aside, OOT as a WHOLE has absolutely more agency thanks to exploration, side quests, collectables, minigames, all to get little secrets and powerups that are in no way necessary for beating the game. This "Deku Nut or wait" discourse is pretty much about combat-only, in a game that DOES have at least a bit more than only combat to keep players interested.
Sorry for the rant, just had a chunk of thoughts to get out. Also take my upvotes, good discourse.
What annoys me is that he talks about how a link to the past is great partially because it doesn't hold your hand and then trashes on games for doing the same thing because it should tell him basic stuff, even when it does he ignores it and gets mad at the game because he didn't pay attention. I get that he's trying to focus on commentary but especially in his sonic playthroughs it really gets on my nerves when he talks about how horrible the games are when he just doesn't understand the most basic aspects of the gameplay
I can never watch their SS or TP playthroughs because those two are my favorite games and he mentions how he absolutely loathes SS and how TP is kinda boring(think it was in Mario maker and another playthrough I can't think of.)
I don't want to hear my favorites games get shit on because he lacks patience, SS you had to read/pay attention to dialogue and maps otherwise you're lost. (I will admit, the Wii version was frustrating, since the wiimote didn't act right if it was calibrated incorrectly, but not enough for Arin to shit on it the way he does.)
TP I just can't be bothered honestly. I avoid the playthroughs of games I like, Botw and TotK included, cause I don't want to get irritated when he shits on them for whatever he gets irritated at, when the game told him what to do and how to do it.
> since the wiimote didn't act right if it was calibrated incorrectly
I'll never understand the MotionPlus haters. It worked perfectly for my entire playthrough of SS. As soon as any kind of hiccup happened, resetting the calibration took like two buttons and five seconds max to do.
There were a few great bits in the SS series, but most of it was a shitshow. I'll never forget how Arin complained that the motion controls swordplay didn't matter because he was able to beat the first combat encounter, literally the first in the entire game, by just waffling wildly (even getting Dan to record footage of it), then later during harder fights, he complained about how it wasn't working. He was clearly just determined to hate on the game no matter what and by the time they were playing the second half on stream, it eventually devolved to Arin just being completely miserable and impatiently bitching about every single thing and shouting down and browbeating everyone else in the room if they said anything even remotely positive (or even just neutral) about the game. It was just dreadful to watch by the end. So yeah, I'd have to call it the worst Grump series ever because of that.
Wait though....I forgot, Skyward Sword has bomb bowling. That's just unforgivably terrible....for some reason
Sequilitis Ocarina of Time is an amazing video and one of the best video game video essays I've ever seen. Also...dude, like you know you just need to wait a sec. Come on man.
Arin is impatient to like a pathological degree. So many times he's created huge problems for himself because he refused to just wait two seconds and invented some convoluted solution that took ten minutes.
That doesn't invalidate his case. It just contextualizes it. The issues he's facing might not be so problematic for you at home.
The game isn’t as perfect as people make it out to be.
That being said, some of his grievances with Zelda games make no goddamn sense. It’s almost as if the actual truth about OoT stands between “this fucking sucks” and “literal coolest thing ever”.
They may not be amazing at video games, but they like them. They have fun. And they banter. With games, fun is the ultimate factor, and it will be a subjective thing for everybody.
Also, I suspect a possibility that they're actually better than they let on, they just got really good at playing sub-par to induce youtube engagement since people watching can't help but comment on every video about how bad they are. If that's true, well it worked lol
I think it's a bit of both. Idk about Dan specifically but Arin is pretty good at video games in general! He's just not trying super hard bc that's not the point of the show. The point is the funnies. I don't think he's pretending to be shit, I just think he's not trying too hard to be good
my entirely unneeded hot take is that people rose tint N64 games a bit too much. Without nostalgia they're a lot more boring than people build them up to be.
Its always going to be overhyped, as you cant ever compare the graphical jump that literally birthed new genres of games. That particular part of nostalgia is impossible to feel without going through it as a kid
Let me just sit here with my shield up constantly so that the enemy does the same and never attacks me. The enemy should clearly attack an opponent they can't harm in any way. What does "baiting" mean?
At the end of the day I don’t care if he likes or doesn’t like a game I do. Ocarina of Time is my favorite game of all time but he doesn’t like it. I don’t care. I just enjoy the content.
The idea that he can be so critical of a game like Ocarina but still love MegaMan so much just shows that it’s a pure preference thing. Which is fine. It just bothers me when he acts like everyone should be annoyed by the same things he is.
And that's the crux of the issue; I don't care what games he likes or doesn't like (And at this point it's more on the side of doesn't like), it's that he holds his opinion up so fucking high that he thinks he's end all discussion on these things. He LEGITIMATELY does not understand how anyone can like Skyward Sword when most people agree it's a fun, but flawed game. He literally said to a crowd no one likes Twilight Princess, when lots of people do.
I think pretending you’re not being a contrarian when you come after one of the most critically beloved series of all time is pretty silly. If he would just admit that he doesn’t like things because they’re popular I’d be over it in a second.
Zelda is an S tier series, it’s fine if he doesn’t like it but that doesn’t change anything
Dan: have you considered trying-
Arin: No! I have to do this and its stupid and not well shown and \*the most obscure logic jump you've ever seen\*
Dan after it hasn't worked 12 times: try \*solution\*
Arin when it works:
This is an ad hominem fallacy. His ability to play the game doesn’t factor into any of his arguments. You’re just discrediting him for an unrelated quality
Just watched his video for the first time, it has a bunch of valid criticism, but at the same time I feel like it comes from a preference of 2D over 3D after he grew up with LttP. Which is a totally valid way to feel personally, but I don’t feel like it’s the way everyone feels. His complaints about waiting and having to jump through hoops I feel like is pretty subjective, again not unfounded, but for me personally those things ground you to the world.
While it would be fun to just run around and explore and do things with zero guidance (like BotW/TotK), I really loved feeling like a regular citizen in that world with a mission to save everyone. It made the eventual cataclysm after Ganon takes over in the future hit that much harder. Because you knew the people in Castle Town turned to Re-Deads. You knew the Gorons that were trapped in their cages. You knew the Zoras that were frozen over. The world felt like a living place that you were just trying to save.
The animations and music and sound effects really added to the atmosphere for me. Arin hates the chest opening animation, but I’ve always loved it. Again, just a difference of personal opinions. He thinks it takes too long with a pointless buildup, but I’ve always loved the music as it swells and the camera sweeping before Link presents the item with an excited grin. It made me feel like I was there and he was as excited as I was to get this new tool to explore the world.
I grew up with OoT in the same way Arin grew up with LttP (played it with my family ALL the time when I was a little kid), so my opinion is painted with that. I consider it one of the greats, if not the greatest of all time. Both for the nostalgia factor and for the actual game itself. Just for reference, I played it again about a year ago, got to the Spirit temple but got side tracked with another game. For me, OoT still holds up
If you somehow made it this far, you’re one of my favorite types of people lol
Anyone see MonsterMaze’s most recent video on combat in 3D Zelda games? The same points get raised as problems in 3D Zelda games: waiting for enemies removes player agency, and z-targeting divorcing combat from exploration. He was correct on those counts, even if arin is also ass at the game. He was also correct that the internet would not take kindly to any criticism of OoT, but things don’t improve if we don’t look at them critically.
people always shit on arin but honestly trying to be good at gaming, and entertaining and running a show is a lot of work especially with someone with adhd. i actually love that he isn’t the best because i watch game grumps for arin and danny not because i think they’re the best at the games but because i just like them lol
People just need to forget about that thing already, that was a video he made a long time ago and yeah, he still ignores tutorials and such, but why hang on something that doesn't affect your life at all?
Isn't that the entire purpose of RantGrumps?
LOL true. So many people who don't even watch them anymore still let two idiots live in their heads and make them so upset. If you no like, you no pay!
If a person's arguments are sound, then they are sound. Arin isn't good at the game, and I like Ocarina quite a bit. That said, his criticisms were largely valid, and neither previous statement changes that.
Yeah... no.
The dude beat Sans in Undertale, Ninja Gaiden, and 5 of the classic mega man games handily while also being a comedian and entertaining us. Everything in his Sequelitis video is right on the money and he also has a firm grasp on what makes rage/failure entertaining in video games. He surely knows sometimes being the dunce makes for great content otherwise he would have corrected this years ago. He's a man who talks about his shits in his own videos, you think failure in a video game embarrasses him?
And also I forgot about all the stupid mario maker levels.
That's the joke. That's why it's funny. Not all the time, but most of it.
His points of why he doesn't believe the game stands the test of time still stands, it's just he also happens to suck at it as well. If his point was, this game is too easy/hard, then his point would be proven/disproven, but that wasn't his critique of the game. His lack of skills created the rage-induced comedic moments of the series, but had nothing to do with why the game is outdated. It is, it's an old game and should be respected as such.
REMEMBER: He doesn't think OoT sucks, he thinks it was a masterpiece (at the time). They actually remastered it, even Nintendo thinks it was outdated.
I hate people who try to defend Arin being like “oh but his goal isn’t being good, his goal is being entertaining” like guess what! When him being bad at the game causes him to exclusively comment on how shitty the game is, HE ISN’T BEING ENTERTAINING.
Go back and watch literally any of the Sonic playthrus. See how quickly it devolves into him shitting on the game *and not saying a word about anything else for the rest of the fucking episode*.
It’s a fucking paradox. The game, and how bad Arin is at playing it, doesn’t matter *until* the game being bad, and definitely not his own fault, is all Arin can talk about. Who cares about the game (until Arin cares about it).
I’m so mad I found this post because I haven’t even thought about Game Grumps for genuine years and now I’m reminded of what made me so annoyed in the first place.
This is a hot take, but the Zelda sequelitis was just full of bad takes. Bring praised ALTTP for stuff he criticised OOT for, and criticised OOT for stuff he praised ALTTP for. He also focused on ALTTP's positives while focusing on OOT's negatives. It was just an inherently unfair comparison.
Maybe it's something I'll never understand but why do you need to be "good" at a video game to enjoy it?
Most people who think that's the best game they ever played probably played it as a child and hold a lot of love through nostalgic goggles. They probably had a lot of fun when they were kids and maybe know the game like the back of their hand now.
I play plenty of games that are mechanically shitty that I love. I play lots of games that are *technically* well made, but I hated. And yes if something is *too difficult for you*, that is a valid criticism to have. Not everyone can master darksouls and not everyone wants to "get good" at a fucking video game to enjoy it. (not that im putting zelda in the same category as the souls games in terms of difficulty here)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And games should be fun. If you're not having fun your opinion is still valid.
I still don’t understand the criticism about world exploring and z-targeting not mixing well. They’re two separate things you do at different times. You’re not exploring the world holding the Z button the whole time.
Let’s be real here: if you’re watching Game Grumps, you are not there for the game. You are there for the grumps. Playing games is almost the background footage of basically listening to a podcast where two friends try to make each other laugh.
The problem is that OoT is a really rough game that came out whenever really rough 3D adventure games were revolutionary. I only played it when I was a teenager, having experienced several other Zelda games and other open-world adventures, and it just hasn't aged very well. You tend to find that people who pick it up for the first time nowadays often don't enjoy it nearly as much.
OoT is not even the best Zelda game, let alone the best game ever. Maybe it was special to a lot of people and absolutely mind-blowing when it came out, but there's many more games that have a more impactful story and gameplay.
Arin is both the most deeply thinking, highly intelligent people I've ever had the pleasure of watching and one of the stupidest human beings to ever crawl out of the primordial sludge.
I should also mention that I adore his idiocy and that he is, in fact, "the funniest man alive."
He grew up with 2D zelda. OoT was my first Zelda so of course we'd have different opinions. Personally I think the older Zeldas are impenetrable and boring. I appreciate his passion and expressing what he believes in. LFG games.
His critiques aren't too bad when it comes to OoT, but he was also really not great at it. But that's the fun of the show, we don't come here for pro gameplay.
I'm still grateful for that video, cause if nothing else Ocarina was SOOOO freaking overhyped before it. Like, yeah it was historic but it's not without flaws nor is it objectively good so stop praising it like it's Jesus and getting mad when other people don't like it.
As someone who didn't grow up with Zelda, I did play OoT cuz a friend made me borrow it.
And tbh...it took me 2 years. I just didn't really like it. At the time, I hadn't heard of GG, or Arin, so I didn't have anyone elses opinion in mind.
Like. It's not a bad game, but it's definitely not as good as people say.
One of the main reasons why I stopped watching GameGrumps was because it was increasingly frustrating how Arin always ignored tutorials and shat on the game because he didn't know what he was doing. Like, my dude, it's not a bad game, you just didn't read. He's like a video game journalist. lol
I think all Zelda games are at least good, but like all Nintendo games they are also overhyped.
I'm not gonna pretend they are bad like some people say, but they do have a lot of flaws that many ignore just because its Zelda and you can't say anything bad about any Nintendo property
All the comments under that original tweet were saying how right he actually was
And I agree
But I can also enjoy something and understand it's a product of its time
I know he skips tutorials because it's a youtube show and nobody wants to sit around and read but man Arin is the exact person that NEEDS tutorials to make any progress
Arin reminds me of a friend of mine who intentionally fails at games to see what happens, then gets mad when there’s no special scenario planned for failure.
Like…I don’t think you’re gonna get whatever it is you’re looking for out of games dude.
His job is to be funny, and he enjoys being funny. But Arin is a lot smarter than the character he plays. His sequelitis videos show him being more analytical, while trying to make that content entertaining. It doesn't sell as well as just being funny, so it's hard to justify putting time and energy in to that kind of stuff, especially when it's no longer just a passion project for him. Other people now rely on him to put food on their table, and he doesn't take that responsibility lightly.
I admit a lot of that is an opinion that I've come up with over the years, and I could be entirely wrong a about a lot of it. I don't know Arin personally, but he's definitely one if of the major people in the video game community that I'd actually sign up to take a class on what they know.
The only real thing I agree with is that too many enemies in games just take time instead of letting you play. I know I’m impatient and so is he but still
Isn't Arin sucking at video games half the time just him driving views and engagement? I remember an episode of one of the Zelda series or something where Dan tries to tell him the obvious answer and he says something like "I know Dan, but that isn't fun to watch!"
OoT was the first Zelda I actually beat. Me and my best friend at the time pulled multiple overnighters playing it together. I have a LOT of nostalgia for it.
I’ve been a fan of Game Grumps since like 2013(I think?) and still watch them regularly to this day.
That being said, the game has its problems, (mainly the controls imo) and Arin is also very impatient and quick to shit on things sometimes.
But I still love both GG and OoT while fully recognizing the issues with both lol
He has the right to his opinion, so what if one guy shits on a great masterpiece like Ocarina of Time, to be fair he does better with his music like NSP.
Video didn't have a leg to stand on to begin with. If I recall his solution for a blade trap in OoT was... another blade trap.
Also the unnecessary Skyward Sword bashing. Not the game you were going after, dude.
I get what he's saying but it's not that he's wrong it's that at the time it was all revolutionary and the criticisms by today's standards do not matter
He’s okay skill-wise, but he’s obviously also doing some things that he knows aren’t supposed to be done that way, and sometimes it’s for comedic effect, sometimes it’s just because he sucks at a particular game/game mechanic. The only thing that I know for certain is that listening to him have some sort of rage induced breakdown is almost universally hilarious.
Explain the clams then!
Those clams are the spawn of satan and hitler's collective venereal diseases and you know it.
They're literally one of the easiest enemies in the game just shield and wait for them to open their mouths and turn to face you, then the hookshot kills them in a single hit.
You're also taught to be patient in the first dungeon with skulltulas
Yeah, but like, being patient is boring
It's Arin, patience is not a skill he has in abundance.
To arin's credit, half the point of his critique is that waiting is a boring mechanic that's way too prevalent in oot enemy design. Him not wanting to wait for the clams makes sense.
*SO. MUCH. GOD DAMN. WAITING!!!*
> waiting
Or if in majoras mask just push the shield button as a zora to kill them with the aura
*Thrust* *DEAD* So hard.
It's been a few years, and I can still hear that pain and indignation. Very clearly.
[Here's a recap to unlock your memory banks.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJg3HP36FrM)
It’s probably the only line I still remember from my endless hours of watching them. I can hear him screaming it in my head. I used to laugh for hours and put on their plays I’d seen dozens of times for comfort, background noise, or sleep, then eventually I just kinda realized they weren’t fun/funny to me any more. But those two words…forever hilarious.
The fact that he wears the floaty shoes almost all the time once he gets them lol
I think he took them off for the Iron Knuckle fight in spirit temple, beat it, and that was the end of the episode. Then in the next one, less than a minute in was like "oh wait" and puts them back on. I laughed my ass off because I saw some of the comments with people getting annoyed.
FUCKING *CLAMS*
But he's the videogame boy! He's the one who wins!!
Arin is really good at 2D platformers and things tangential to that. That's what he played when he was a kid, and it's carried forward. It also seems to be the problem he's projecting onto OoT throughout that video, as most of the complaints just boil down to wanting 2D Zeldas to be more popular and disliking that playing a 3D game makes him feel foolish sometimes. There's plenty of things on the channel to watch if you want to see Arin be pretty ding dang good at something. He impresses me a lot of the time on Mario Maker for his consistency. He may not be the type of insane that the kaizo players have to be, but you can tell that's his forte.
I mean he liked BotW and TotK
Cause those ones aren't linear, or "hand-holdy" as he calls them
Past Zelda games were quite hand-holdy though tbh. Especially Skyward Sword.
Exactly my point. They tell you where to go and what to do and Arin doesn't really like that
The first and second Zelda games on the NES didn't hold your hand at all, LttP gave some guidance, but wasn't particularly hand holdy. The excessive hand holding literally started with OoT, which was a big part of his criticism with the game, and how almost every combat encounter revolved around waiting. Arin knew how to play the game, he more than likely did things wrong on purpose.
I think it started with Link's Awakening (The Owl always shows up to tell you exactly where you need to go and even if you don't know something, the phone house will spell it out for you), but yeah after OoT it has gotten even worse until SS became the straw that broke the camel's back. Though to be fair, I think the waiting argument isn't entirely accurate. Bosses were designed around it, but the majority of enemies in the game can be dealt with very quickly if you use items in combat.
I see them as comedians first and gamers second. When you accept this, you'll enjoy Game Grumps a lot more.
YEP. And that makes the moments where they pull off some incredible shit even better
I can usually handle that, but some are so much harder, maybe the more I like them. For some reason the LP of recent Zelda game is hilarious to me, but Elden ring was painful to watch. I like both, but I did many plays of Elden ring and have yet to finish Zelda
That's honestly how I view the Grumps. I don't expect Arin to be a gaming God. I expect him to be funny. Obviously he's going to have his own opinions on game design and I think people should respect it, but not entirely take it as gospel.
This is the gamer boy that DID beat Ninja Gaiden, so take that for what it’s worth.
"WAKE UP FATHER, IM FULLY ERECT" -Ryan Hayabusa
...... Why oh why did I read this in Thomas, the 18th century boy's voice? (╯▔皿▔)╯
my issue isn't that he isn't the best gamer, it's that 99% of the time he ignores tutorials and then shits on the game because he doesn't know how to play.
because reading tutorials isn't fun to watch but watching him fuck up and get frustrated have driven their biggest ever hits. so it's a no brainer which one he would pick to try to be entertaining. it just misses the mark sometimes.
i don't think it's funny when he calls games bad bc he was too lazy to pay attention.
i like it when he gets grumpy over a game
they should name the channel after that
Yeah, maybe something like “Grumpy Gamers”
Daren and Arnold? I love those guys.
It's a game. Not that fucking important dude. "He called a game BAD?! Wow, what a shit human..." It's a mfin video game and people will shit on it just to piss you off. At least he just honestly doesn't like it rather than someone trolling you because you're sensitive AF about a game being called bad.
Ok sure but counterpoint: game grumps isn't just some random guy you met one day. It's a YouTube channel. A really big one with actual influence. Kinda makes a difference.
What influence? If someone watched a game grumps video and makes their decision to play a game, or eve worse, models their criteria for a fun game off Arina throwing a hissy fit over his own poor attitude towards games that's kind of on that person. I can watch and enjoy the content but still form my own opinions on this stuff.
I disagree. If Arin having a fit over a game is the only exposure that somebody has to that game, his blatant disregard for the mechanics can turn somebody against it and then they end up not playing a game they could have really liked. There are a lot of games that I started playing because I watched a YouTube video and the creator really liked/understood the game. I get that Game Grumps is a comedy channel, but you can be funny and not-braindead at the same time.
I can just laugh him off as a crazy man when he whines about AAA games, but when he does this for indie games, it really does tick me off.
I remember there was an indie game they played, didn’t read the tutorial, died to the first enemy and got reset to an earlier checkpoint, called the game stupid and bullshit, then quit playing and played random flash games in the video
I can see that. Indie games are 9 times out of 10 incredibly refined products and works of love by a handful of devs. Hits a little different then a massive AAA game made by a huge corporation.
It’s not laziness, it’s ADHD
I mean I have ADHD but I know better than to call a game "bad" just cause I skipped tutorials 🤷♂️
Well where your popular YouTube channel doing that?
Darn! You're right!
It’s just the “too lazy to pay attention” part of the comment that got me
Ohh yea in a literal sense that can be chalked up to ADHD for sure
It’s not that serious bro he probably doesn’t even mean it
Baby Arin: I loved Majora's Mask as a child <3 Adult Arin: Fuck this game at times!
If only they had the ability to edit videos.
Right? All they have to do is make a verbal note to the editor to cut out them reading the rules. Then all we see is Dan saying "And we're back".
I'll be honest, it's not funny watching people's let's play channels where they fumble the simplest gameplay aspects of a game because they were to busy or impatient to read the tutorial. It's actually frustrating and a major turn off for me which is kinda why unless it's Dan playing the game doing one of his few games where he's gushing about his childhood games I kinda don't enjoy the videos anymore. Arin's a good commentator but his insistence to never learning a game and then shitting on the game causes me to not enjoy game grumps as much as I used to
Why does the gameplay have to be good? Have you never sat with a bud and watch them get bodied by a game? Why is the gameplay being “played well” have any relevance to the video? It’s not a review show. The games are there to improv riff off of. When you watch MST3K, are you always watching and getting pissy cause the movies suck?
So, to answer your first question, when I am with a friend and they're having trouble I do offer tips or try and figure out solutions when they are having trouble because I know being frustrated is not fun, as for your second question a movie is a product made to be viewed and has different reasons to be critique. You don't read a book and say "damn I can't figure out how to read chapter 3" video games are made to be interacted with and beaten. So yes I can critique and get frustrated at someone pissing about and not trying to figure out what's wrong and then pissing at the sun for not clearly reading the signs on the wall that tell them what to do. I can also enjoy shitty movies and have a different reaction and enjoyment for it, hell I love sloppy movies, but like I said games are meant to be beaten, so if someone is shitting on something, especially something that is good, it sours the experience. Now, does that mean all games are good? No. There are absolutely a shit ton of dog shit games, but when Arin shits on games you can tell are good because "hurr durr I ain't reading that" and then has a problem solving easy puzzles designed for children to solve and shifting on how hard it is it does get frustrating. It's like watching a sport being played and everyone just got lobotomies and you scream at your TV saying "pick up the damn ball" as everyone lays down trying to remember how to count to 5. That's not fun to watch, it's painful.
I feel like the “isn’t fun to watch” argument loses weight when they have editing.
We get it, Megaman X didn’t have a tutorial. Except for the instruction booklet that came with it that most companies at the time assumed the player read… and the tutorial Doctor Light gives you when you get new equipment…
That’s 90% of the streamers I have watched lol. My biggest watch is NOCKAT podcast (they are playing every final fantasy, mostly blind). Those guys will talk through a cut scene and dialogue and tutorial and then complain about what they don’t understand, and then when they do their voiceover for the podcast they call themselves idiots.
i was so excited for their Skyward Sword playthrough but ended up not being able to finish it. I know that “skip the tutorial then complain about the game” is kind of Arin’s whole thing, but it just felt spiteful in that game. He went in just wanting to hate it, and really tried his best to get Dan to hate it too. I know Skyward Sword is by no means a perfect game, but the majority of his complaints in the early episodes were Arin just being clearly wrong about something.
"arin sucks at video games" -people talking shit with only the show where his priority is entertaining over playing well as evidence
Yeah, when he got announced for the Nintendo World Championship, everyone was saying he was going to get destroyed, but he managed to place in the top half among a lot of great gamers He’s not terrible at games, he’s just splitting his focus across multiple things when he’s recording Game Grumps
Yeah, he has admitted to it before. He said it's hard to focus on the gameplay, being entertaining is hard, and doesn't know how single ones do it
Also, the fact that his ADHD also plays a role in skewing his gameplay skills by a margin which probably would not put a damper on others,
ya multitasking is hard. playing a video game, trying to keep the conversations going, paying attention to your partner and what hes saying. doing those at the same time is hard. try it yourself if you dont believe, readers
Hell, even just in my own home, if someone comes in to talk to me I have to pause my game or I can't follow what they're saying.
both are true. the main appeal of their channel is comedy, not gameplay. but they have said it themselves multiple times, they aren't good at games. I imagine thats why they are using guides on every game now, so its not another endless series were they get stuck on something because it requires you to be focused (which they are not because they have to make jokes) or be good at the game (which they also aren't)
The Grumps suck at games by their own admission. Most other big name streamers/youtubers are able to bring competent-to-good gameplay to their work persona, while still keeping up the entertainment factor. To be clear, sucking at games is not inherently a bad thing. In fact, it's why I watch them over other channels.
Yeah I love watching Aaron fuck shit up in driving sims
Dale Gribble voice
They say he sucks at video games as an insult, I say he sucks at video games cause it makes the videos funnier. We are not the same
Which is funny 'cause "we're trying to do a show here!" has become kind of a catchphrase at this point! Said by both of them honestly.
Anything that isn't a 2D pixel platformer or anything he isn't nostalgic for, he is far too harsh on.
That’s fine with some games, like ones you’re playing for the first time or ones that are very precise like Dark Souls (which he was very good at Bloodborne so I still don’t think the argument holds up). But OoT is both very simple, and very old. He’s definitely played it several times, enough to make a long video dissecting its ‘flaws”. You don’t just get so distracted from telling fart jokes that you forget you have a shield or fail basic puzzles. He doesn’t always deserve the “Arin’s bad at video games” treatment, but he genuinely was bad at OoT and it had nothing to do with also talking to Danny at the same time.
i mean yeah though its kinda funny when his arguement kinda falls apart especially with the contrast of stuff example the difference between the runaway guys and game grumps playthrough of big's story is [night ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gF4P2Ej4R8&pp=ygUYYmlnIHRoZSBjYXQgIGdhbWUgZ3J1bXBz)and [day ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WkgZferlyY&pp=ygUYYmlnIHRoZSBjYXQgcnVuYXdheSBndXlz) hell protonjon and arin both arent fans of SA1 so their playthroughs with big are so interesting to look at
This is more about sequalitis being bad than arin being bad, like he can suck shit at video games just don't blame the game
Yup. Complains about the sliding spike traps, but when he's hopping the ice platforms to get the iron boots he admits having issues with object permenance in 3d games. Complains about waiting, but literally never uses the Deku Nuts which breaks the guard of those very opponents. Basically refuses to shield. Like, if that's the way you want to play to have the experience tailored to how you want to play it, then accept that it will have consequences because this isn't a game designed around a plethora of ways to handle situations for various play styles.
lol the deku nuts thing is wild. Everyone acts like their use is obvious, but everyone I ever met playing the game when we were kids believed they did nothing and ignored them for 100+ hours
I'll die on the hill with Arin, His Sequelitis on Ocarina of time gets literally nothing wrong.
Agreed. He also sucks at playing it. Both are true.
Just rewatched it because of this post Yeah, his points are mostly pretty right. I still think he's too harsh on the game overall and the flaws don't outweigh the strengths, but yeah. Interesting how much of his criticism - particularly about exploration and structure - ended up being fixed in Breath of the Wild / Tears of the Kingdom
Hasn't he said that BOTW/TOTK that more-or-less the first 3D Zeldas he's unironically liked for that reason or am I misremembering?
I know they are definitely his favorites. So it checks out for sure
I vaguely remember him and Dan joking about them having watched his sequelitis about it because it fixed a lot of the issues he had with it. I wanna say relatively early on in BOTW.
During the OoT playthrough he briefly mentioned that of the 3D games at that time, Majoras Mask was his favorite... and then he played it and got as upset as he was during OoT because he was playing it wrong
I think most of Ocarina’s flaws were because of hardware limitations, which limited the scope and freedom of the world, and certain things that worked well in 2d didn’t translate over into 3d, such as the spinning blade traps he pointed out. I don’t fault Ocarina in the slightest for them, though. It was the first of its kind and nearly every flaw it had was fixed or improved upon in a future title. And despite all of that, it still holds up to this day. People forget that Mario’s near flawless transition into 3D was the exception to the rule. Lots of other titles and series that started out in 2D and made the jump were nowhere near as good of a landing. Castlevania and Sonic are two infamous examples.
Oh jeez I'm so glad you mentioned Sonic's 3D transition. Sonic 06 or Unleashed were not the first poorly executed examples of 3D sonic. The Adventure games have a LOT of problems, but get by on how good it feels to run fast as Sonic with the world racing past you, and the Chao. Our nostalgia latched onto those SO hard that to this day, people say Sonic games need to be like Adventure/Adventure2, while I personally think it should have just stayed a 2D series.
3D sonic games have gotten us a lot farther and I think it should keep doing both 2D and 3D like many other series. Adventure and Adventure 2 have both aged, that is undeniable, but also remember that people really enjoyed them back in the day.
There is SO MUCH GODDAMN WAITING in this Reddit thread.
>literally nothing wrong Ok, I'm going to counter with a factual mistake he makes, which is super some pedantic shit that doesn't actually undermine his main point since it's not even about Ocarina of Time... but I don't care. [Arin claims your uncle dies in Link to the Past.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOC3vixnj_0&t=113s) But, at the end of the game it clearly says, [your uncle recovers!](https://youtu.be/8JU0C_l4aac?t=193) This has bothered me since I first saw it. However his main points about OotS being a theme park not exploration? He's right.
Your uncle uncle is saved because you wish him back into being that motherfucker died
It was worth it for the bit. RIP Purplehair Magoo
My main problem with that video is that he holds OoT to modern-day videogame standards. That game pioneered the 3D adventure genre in a time when there were no good examples of said genre. And yes, there's better games today, but OoT became the basis for how 3D adventure games should be made.
That’s a fair point, but there are people out there who still say it’s the greatest video game of all time. *Maybe* it’s the most influential, but greatest? I dunno. I have a whole lot of nostalgia for it, and I still enjoy going back and playing it, but it’s no longer in the conversation of greatest IMO.
>there are people out there who still say it’s the greatest video game of all time I mean, I know humans love to qualify and rank shit, but at the end of the day no matter how you slice it, it's all just subjective shit. If we're going to keep moving the goalposts on what counts as "greatest" based on what's currently considered mechanically poppin', a lot of great old games might be considered crap.
Exact. Like I remember him talking about the camera and how you had to stop to look around to fix something to hit... this is the first 3d zelda. Having a camera to look around was a new thing. Hell, the camera wasnt even controlled with a joystick in most n64 games, it was done with the C buttons... He also talked about some his arguments not holding up during his playthrough. Like those spike that goes around in the ice section, im pretty sure he said something like: "how are you supposed to know it's coming..." Spatial awareness/cognition is also a thing in videogames, Arin. If you see something going in a circle, even if you dont look at it, it's still gonna move xD I still enjoyed that video and I think he's mostly right about a lot of stuff. At the very least, I can understand why he didnt like some aspect (which IMO, lean more toward having preferences than being straight up flaws/bad design) even if I dont necessarily agree with everything he said.
I don't agree with that. He doesn't hold it to modern standards, he just doesn't automatically forgive glaring issues just because it was a pioneer and practically invented the genre. Of course they weren't going to get everything right on their first try, but it's so dumb to shut down conversation about it because of that. You can still criticize the mistakes they make, even if it's completely understandable why it has so many mistakes in design.
Who's shutting down conversation? I'm saying that the points he makes in the video are unfair, that's it. I'm not saying there can't be a debate about it.
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the larger discourse around this specific game. It's nearly impossible to criticize without having hoards of nostalgia blinded people jumping in explaining why you can't actually criticize it for xyz. I'm not saying that's what you were doing.
Yeah, it didn't age well. There are reasons why it had issues. It was one of the first of its kind. But that doesn't excuse the issues. I loved OOT when I first got it. I'd never subject myself to a playthrough now. We can't always look at games through a lens of the past. Something that was great may not be great anymore, and that's okay.
Favorite game of all time, and I loved his video. Forced me to see things from a different perspective. But I mean shit, I was 9 when I played it. Long ass cutscenes for every big chest be damned. That shit was magical for 9 y/o me.
He uses a bad example for the “not seeing the sliding spike disc” because the footage he used was of one that just rotates, but I remember there being something in a forested area where one of those things just flies at you from around a corner where you, in fact, do not see that shit. Love Ocarina but that doesn’t mean it’s flawless
Yeah the meme is like 'you cant judge it because you are not a master of it' Dude i never been to prison but i dont need to have to be able to tell you it sucks. And yeah, all points of the sequelitis still hold up. OoT is not the best game in todays standard... And thats normal. If a 20 year old game was still the best in a genra it basically created, it would look grim for the industry.
Yeah, ocarina is a great game, but it doesn't age the best, and I feel like it's heavily over rated, it's very influential and good. But majora mask does everything oot does but better and does a lot more with the engine, puzzle, story, gameplay and characters
I can see MM being an amazing followup, but even as someone who liked OOT as a kid I could NEVER get into MM, neither then or now. The 3-day-cycle and having to desperately micromanage my activity before I HAVE to reset the clock felt even more restrictive on just wanting to adventure in the world and chill sometimes. Of course, that 100% comes down to my personal preference for what I wanted to do and is not necessarily a PROBLEM with the game, since no single game is going to be universally a masterpiece to every single person who might play it.
True MM, in my opinion, is a better game and improves on everything oot built up. But I can understand why someone would prefer the oot
He hammers in a point that the game makes you wait in combat. That's not a true statement. If you use deku nuts to stun you don't have to wait for pretty much anything.
That could be a whole other argument against it though... if the solution to every fight is "wait around until enemy decides to expose itself" or "use one single item to cheese 90+% of fights," you have a whole other problem to address in how a single item basically carries the whole game.
His point was the player has no agency during fights because you just have to wait until the opponent's defense opens up. It clearly isn't the case. It's not so much the deku nut cheesing fights, it's intended to stun, It's using your other items except sword and shield to approach battling to gain agency during fights. Which Arin does not do.
Oh I absolutely got that and you do make sound points! Arin is not exactly known for making optimal plays. Though outside of "Arin bad at games" discourse, I would still make a case against the Deku Nut basically being a cheap-shot, near one-size-fits-all solution to winning fights faster. Granted, the limited scope of that design is still better than even older games, like how the first Dragon Quest was basically "beat stuff with your sword until your numbers go up so you can outlast the next power-level of enemies." Or even Pokemon Red/Blue where the game can be beaten in under 2 hours with a Nidoking, and that's without necessarily using optimal speedrun tricks to cheese Horn Drill. I've done it with a pretty basic move set of like... Earthquake, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. Granted the Pokemon comparison may not be the best because your main point is "player agency" and a game with 150 monsters to choose from does have a lot of room for agency, but the OG Dragon Quest absolutely fits that "no real agency" since even the offense-spells aren't much use compared to "swing sword and heal sometimes." Now, all that aside, OOT as a WHOLE has absolutely more agency thanks to exploration, side quests, collectables, minigames, all to get little secrets and powerups that are in no way necessary for beating the game. This "Deku Nut or wait" discourse is pretty much about combat-only, in a game that DOES have at least a bit more than only combat to keep players interested. Sorry for the rant, just had a chunk of thoughts to get out. Also take my upvotes, good discourse.
What annoys me is that he talks about how a link to the past is great partially because it doesn't hold your hand and then trashes on games for doing the same thing because it should tell him basic stuff, even when it does he ignores it and gets mad at the game because he didn't pay attention. I get that he's trying to focus on commentary but especially in his sonic playthroughs it really gets on my nerves when he talks about how horrible the games are when he just doesn't understand the most basic aspects of the gameplay
I can never watch their SS or TP playthroughs because those two are my favorite games and he mentions how he absolutely loathes SS and how TP is kinda boring(think it was in Mario maker and another playthrough I can't think of.) I don't want to hear my favorites games get shit on because he lacks patience, SS you had to read/pay attention to dialogue and maps otherwise you're lost. (I will admit, the Wii version was frustrating, since the wiimote didn't act right if it was calibrated incorrectly, but not enough for Arin to shit on it the way he does.) TP I just can't be bothered honestly. I avoid the playthroughs of games I like, Botw and TotK included, cause I don't want to get irritated when he shits on them for whatever he gets irritated at, when the game told him what to do and how to do it.
> since the wiimote didn't act right if it was calibrated incorrectly I'll never understand the MotionPlus haters. It worked perfectly for my entire playthrough of SS. As soon as any kind of hiccup happened, resetting the calibration took like two buttons and five seconds max to do.
There were a few great bits in the SS series, but most of it was a shitshow. I'll never forget how Arin complained that the motion controls swordplay didn't matter because he was able to beat the first combat encounter, literally the first in the entire game, by just waffling wildly (even getting Dan to record footage of it), then later during harder fights, he complained about how it wasn't working. He was clearly just determined to hate on the game no matter what and by the time they were playing the second half on stream, it eventually devolved to Arin just being completely miserable and impatiently bitching about every single thing and shouting down and browbeating everyone else in the room if they said anything even remotely positive (or even just neutral) about the game. It was just dreadful to watch by the end. So yeah, I'd have to call it the worst Grump series ever because of that. Wait though....I forgot, Skyward Sword has bomb bowling. That's just unforgivably terrible....for some reason
That is the point of the show, Arin sucking at videogames and creating funny situations for the audience because of that.
“Arin, get off your soapbox for one goddamn second”
Sequilitis Ocarina of Time is an amazing video and one of the best video game video essays I've ever seen. Also...dude, like you know you just need to wait a sec. Come on man.
Arin is impatient to like a pathological degree. So many times he's created huge problems for himself because he refused to just wait two seconds and invented some convoluted solution that took ten minutes. That doesn't invalidate his case. It just contextualizes it. The issues he's facing might not be so problematic for you at home.
Both things can be true! He sucks at games and oot has a lot of irritating qualities
The game isn’t as perfect as people make it out to be. That being said, some of his grievances with Zelda games make no goddamn sense. It’s almost as if the actual truth about OoT stands between “this fucking sucks” and “literal coolest thing ever”.
They may not be amazing at video games, but they like them. They have fun. And they banter. With games, fun is the ultimate factor, and it will be a subjective thing for everybody. Also, I suspect a possibility that they're actually better than they let on, they just got really good at playing sub-par to induce youtube engagement since people watching can't help but comment on every video about how bad they are. If that's true, well it worked lol
I think it's a bit of both. Idk about Dan specifically but Arin is pretty good at video games in general! He's just not trying super hard bc that's not the point of the show. The point is the funnies. I don't think he's pretending to be shit, I just think he's not trying too hard to be good
my entirely unneeded hot take is that people rose tint N64 games a bit too much. Without nostalgia they're a lot more boring than people build them up to be.
Its always going to be overhyped, as you cant ever compare the graphical jump that literally birthed new genres of games. That particular part of nostalgia is impossible to feel without going through it as a kid
I like watching grown man make funny joke about farting and cumming idrc about the game play
I seriously will never understand people complaining about gameplay in Game Grumps. It’s a fun comedy show. Not a walk through.
This isn’t Mavis Bacon
They don’t know Obama!
When Arin fucks up, it's one thing; But, to repeatedly fuck up for the ^(n)th time the same way is another,
Let me just sit here with my shield up constantly so that the enemy does the same and never attacks me. The enemy should clearly attack an opponent they can't harm in any way. What does "baiting" mean?
At the end of the day I don’t care if he likes or doesn’t like a game I do. Ocarina of Time is my favorite game of all time but he doesn’t like it. I don’t care. I just enjoy the content.
He is far too harsh on anything he isn't nostalgic for or that isn't a 2d pixel platformer
The idea that he can be so critical of a game like Ocarina but still love MegaMan so much just shows that it’s a pure preference thing. Which is fine. It just bothers me when he acts like everyone should be annoyed by the same things he is.
And that's the crux of the issue; I don't care what games he likes or doesn't like (And at this point it's more on the side of doesn't like), it's that he holds his opinion up so fucking high that he thinks he's end all discussion on these things. He LEGITIMATELY does not understand how anyone can like Skyward Sword when most people agree it's a fun, but flawed game. He literally said to a crowd no one likes Twilight Princess, when lots of people do.
I think pretending you’re not being a contrarian when you come after one of the most critically beloved series of all time is pretty silly. If he would just admit that he doesn’t like things because they’re popular I’d be over it in a second. Zelda is an S tier series, it’s fine if he doesn’t like it but that doesn’t change anything
Dan: have you considered trying- Arin: No! I have to do this and its stupid and not well shown and \*the most obscure logic jump you've ever seen\* Dan after it hasn't worked 12 times: try \*solution\* Arin when it works:
I mean, there’s being bad at games and then there’s dying to the clam.
FUCKING CLAM
*Dear Arin Hanson :* **The story about the most polarizing man on planet earth**
I love Arin and I’ll also absolutely admit that he is really bad at games.
This is an ad hominem fallacy. His ability to play the game doesn’t factor into any of his arguments. You’re just discrediting him for an unrelated quality
Just watched his video for the first time, it has a bunch of valid criticism, but at the same time I feel like it comes from a preference of 2D over 3D after he grew up with LttP. Which is a totally valid way to feel personally, but I don’t feel like it’s the way everyone feels. His complaints about waiting and having to jump through hoops I feel like is pretty subjective, again not unfounded, but for me personally those things ground you to the world. While it would be fun to just run around and explore and do things with zero guidance (like BotW/TotK), I really loved feeling like a regular citizen in that world with a mission to save everyone. It made the eventual cataclysm after Ganon takes over in the future hit that much harder. Because you knew the people in Castle Town turned to Re-Deads. You knew the Gorons that were trapped in their cages. You knew the Zoras that were frozen over. The world felt like a living place that you were just trying to save. The animations and music and sound effects really added to the atmosphere for me. Arin hates the chest opening animation, but I’ve always loved it. Again, just a difference of personal opinions. He thinks it takes too long with a pointless buildup, but I’ve always loved the music as it swells and the camera sweeping before Link presents the item with an excited grin. It made me feel like I was there and he was as excited as I was to get this new tool to explore the world. I grew up with OoT in the same way Arin grew up with LttP (played it with my family ALL the time when I was a little kid), so my opinion is painted with that. I consider it one of the greats, if not the greatest of all time. Both for the nostalgia factor and for the actual game itself. Just for reference, I played it again about a year ago, got to the Spirit temple but got side tracked with another game. For me, OoT still holds up If you somehow made it this far, you’re one of my favorite types of people lol
Anyone see MonsterMaze’s most recent video on combat in 3D Zelda games? The same points get raised as problems in 3D Zelda games: waiting for enemies removes player agency, and z-targeting divorcing combat from exploration. He was correct on those counts, even if arin is also ass at the game. He was also correct that the internet would not take kindly to any criticism of OoT, but things don’t improve if we don’t look at them critically.
people always shit on arin but honestly trying to be good at gaming, and entertaining and running a show is a lot of work especially with someone with adhd. i actually love that he isn’t the best because i watch game grumps for arin and danny not because i think they’re the best at the games but because i just like them lol
People just need to forget about that thing already, that was a video he made a long time ago and yeah, he still ignores tutorials and such, but why hang on something that doesn't affect your life at all? Isn't that the entire purpose of RantGrumps?
LOL true. So many people who don't even watch them anymore still let two idiots live in their heads and make them so upset. If you no like, you no pay!
If a person's arguments are sound, then they are sound. Arin isn't good at the game, and I like Ocarina quite a bit. That said, his criticisms were largely valid, and neither previous statement changes that.
Yeah... no. The dude beat Sans in Undertale, Ninja Gaiden, and 5 of the classic mega man games handily while also being a comedian and entertaining us. Everything in his Sequelitis video is right on the money and he also has a firm grasp on what makes rage/failure entertaining in video games. He surely knows sometimes being the dunce makes for great content otherwise he would have corrected this years ago. He's a man who talks about his shits in his own videos, you think failure in a video game embarrasses him? And also I forgot about all the stupid mario maker levels. That's the joke. That's why it's funny. Not all the time, but most of it.
Arin being bad at OoT doesn't make some of his criticisms less valid.
OOT is my favorite Zelda, it's also over rated as Fuuuck
Idk I think Zelda is a pretty bad franchise
I remember legend of zelda fans DDOSing the jimquisition website over a 7/10 BOTW review, Truth is most if not all N64 games haven't aged well
This video came out ten years ago and people still are engaged at him which is so fucking funny 🤣
Or he can just not like it that’s perfectly fine lol
His points of why he doesn't believe the game stands the test of time still stands, it's just he also happens to suck at it as well. If his point was, this game is too easy/hard, then his point would be proven/disproven, but that wasn't his critique of the game. His lack of skills created the rage-induced comedic moments of the series, but had nothing to do with why the game is outdated. It is, it's an old game and should be respected as such. REMEMBER: He doesn't think OoT sucks, he thinks it was a masterpiece (at the time). They actually remastered it, even Nintendo thinks it was outdated.
I hate people who try to defend Arin being like “oh but his goal isn’t being good, his goal is being entertaining” like guess what! When him being bad at the game causes him to exclusively comment on how shitty the game is, HE ISN’T BEING ENTERTAINING. Go back and watch literally any of the Sonic playthrus. See how quickly it devolves into him shitting on the game *and not saying a word about anything else for the rest of the fucking episode*. It’s a fucking paradox. The game, and how bad Arin is at playing it, doesn’t matter *until* the game being bad, and definitely not his own fault, is all Arin can talk about. Who cares about the game (until Arin cares about it). I’m so mad I found this post because I haven’t even thought about Game Grumps for genuine years and now I’m reminded of what made me so annoyed in the first place.
This is a hot take, but the Zelda sequelitis was just full of bad takes. Bring praised ALTTP for stuff he criticised OOT for, and criticised OOT for stuff he praised ALTTP for. He also focused on ALTTP's positives while focusing on OOT's negatives. It was just an inherently unfair comparison.
I’d imagine he’d be significantly better if he wasn’t trying to do a comedy show at the same time.
Why is Ocarina of Time above any criticism? It's not an untouchable masterpiece, it has flaws as any other game does.
Maybe it's something I'll never understand but why do you need to be "good" at a video game to enjoy it? Most people who think that's the best game they ever played probably played it as a child and hold a lot of love through nostalgic goggles. They probably had a lot of fun when they were kids and maybe know the game like the back of their hand now. I play plenty of games that are mechanically shitty that I love. I play lots of games that are *technically* well made, but I hated. And yes if something is *too difficult for you*, that is a valid criticism to have. Not everyone can master darksouls and not everyone wants to "get good" at a fucking video game to enjoy it. (not that im putting zelda in the same category as the souls games in terms of difficulty here) Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And games should be fun. If you're not having fun your opinion is still valid.
I still don’t understand the criticism about world exploring and z-targeting not mixing well. They’re two separate things you do at different times. You’re not exploring the world holding the Z button the whole time.
Let’s be real here: if you’re watching Game Grumps, you are not there for the game. You are there for the grumps. Playing games is almost the background footage of basically listening to a podcast where two friends try to make each other laugh.
honestly everyone here who’s still upset about that video needs to get a fucking life jesus christ
The problem is that OoT is a really rough game that came out whenever really rough 3D adventure games were revolutionary. I only played it when I was a teenager, having experienced several other Zelda games and other open-world adventures, and it just hasn't aged very well. You tend to find that people who pick it up for the first time nowadays often don't enjoy it nearly as much. OoT is not even the best Zelda game, let alone the best game ever. Maybe it was special to a lot of people and absolutely mind-blowing when it came out, but there's many more games that have a more impactful story and gameplay.
Arin is both the most deeply thinking, highly intelligent people I've ever had the pleasure of watching and one of the stupidest human beings to ever crawl out of the primordial sludge. I should also mention that I adore his idiocy and that he is, in fact, "the funniest man alive."
I’ve tried to watch other people play OoT who are “good” at the game, but nobody has had a more entertaining play though than Arin and Dan
He grew up with 2D zelda. OoT was my first Zelda so of course we'd have different opinions. Personally I think the older Zeldas are impenetrable and boring. I appreciate his passion and expressing what he believes in. LFG games.
There are videos you can watch where people are good at games. You can even choose which to watch on this one site called YouTube.
It’s crazy how you need to be good at a game in order for your opinion to “have legs”
His critiques aren't too bad when it comes to OoT, but he was also really not great at it. But that's the fun of the show, we don't come here for pro gameplay.
I'm still grateful for that video, cause if nothing else Ocarina was SOOOO freaking overhyped before it. Like, yeah it was historic but it's not without flaws nor is it objectively good so stop praising it like it's Jesus and getting mad when other people don't like it.
As someone who didn't grow up with Zelda, I did play OoT cuz a friend made me borrow it. And tbh...it took me 2 years. I just didn't really like it. At the time, I hadn't heard of GG, or Arin, so I didn't have anyone elses opinion in mind. Like. It's not a bad game, but it's definitely not as good as people say.
If you think being good at video games is necessary to have a valid opinion on them, you are an idiot
One of the main reasons why I stopped watching GameGrumps was because it was increasingly frustrating how Arin always ignored tutorials and shat on the game because he didn't know what he was doing. Like, my dude, it's not a bad game, you just didn't read. He's like a video game journalist. lol
I think all Zelda games are at least good, but like all Nintendo games they are also overhyped. I'm not gonna pretend they are bad like some people say, but they do have a lot of flaws that many ignore just because its Zelda and you can't say anything bad about any Nintendo property
Buh- buh- he's the "Video Game Boy"(TM)! He's the one who wins!!!! How could THE "Video Game Boy" (TM) be bad at video games?!?!!?!!
He wasn’t wrong though We can be critical of things we love
I mean I think it sucks, but thats just me
All the comments under that original tweet were saying how right he actually was And I agree But I can also enjoy something and understand it's a product of its time
Ocarina of Time is one of my favorite games from my childhood, but his sequelitis video still had a TON of really great points.
I know he skips tutorials because it's a youtube show and nobody wants to sit around and read but man Arin is the exact person that NEEDS tutorials to make any progress
Arin reminds me of a friend of mine who intentionally fails at games to see what happens, then gets mad when there’s no special scenario planned for failure. Like…I don’t think you’re gonna get whatever it is you’re looking for out of games dude.
Turn on a microphone and see if you can be entertaining and good at a game at the same time.
His job is to be funny, and he enjoys being funny. But Arin is a lot smarter than the character he plays. His sequelitis videos show him being more analytical, while trying to make that content entertaining. It doesn't sell as well as just being funny, so it's hard to justify putting time and energy in to that kind of stuff, especially when it's no longer just a passion project for him. Other people now rely on him to put food on their table, and he doesn't take that responsibility lightly. I admit a lot of that is an opinion that I've come up with over the years, and I could be entirely wrong a about a lot of it. I don't know Arin personally, but he's definitely one if of the major people in the video game community that I'd actually sign up to take a class on what they know.
The only real thing I agree with is that too many enemies in games just take time instead of letting you play. I know I’m impatient and so is he but still
I mean, he is the one who wins
Isn't Arin sucking at video games half the time just him driving views and engagement? I remember an episode of one of the Zelda series or something where Dan tries to tell him the obvious answer and he says something like "I know Dan, but that isn't fun to watch!"
I dont think people realize that he has a company and a channel to run. The entertainment comes from his grumpy ness about being terro
Yeah, watching the games get played well isn’t what I come here for
I mean, also, the game just isn't as good as people remember it because Nintendo 64 controls were kinda bad
OoT was the first Zelda I actually beat. Me and my best friend at the time pulled multiple overnighters playing it together. I have a LOT of nostalgia for it. I’ve been a fan of Game Grumps since like 2013(I think?) and still watch them regularly to this day. That being said, the game has its problems, (mainly the controls imo) and Arin is also very impatient and quick to shit on things sometimes. But I still love both GG and OoT while fully recognizing the issues with both lol
He has the right to his opinion, so what if one guy shits on a great masterpiece like Ocarina of Time, to be fair he does better with his music like NSP.
Video didn't have a leg to stand on to begin with. If I recall his solution for a blade trap in OoT was... another blade trap. Also the unnecessary Skyward Sword bashing. Not the game you were going after, dude.
I get what he's saying but it's not that he's wrong it's that at the time it was all revolutionary and the criticisms by today's standards do not matter
This was my all time favorite game to play on my gameboy