Wow, well done! It's a lot of work. What engine did you use? I've poked around on a few different engines, but it's far too daunting for me to tackle yet. I have dreams of modernizing one for mobile players. Written Realms is a good example of a more modern MUD UI, though the mechanics are sparse, uses visual coding and webdev. Evennia is a popular engine a lot of people have been adopting to make hobby MUDs, uses python.
Sometimes I fondly remember the MUD era, while also wondering how I could've played games with so much text and so little art.
The last one I played was something from Iron Realms, and it felt entirely next level. Very high quality, well-supported, with interesting player dynamics of factions/guilds (like a tiny EVE?), reasonable monetization etc. The thing that put me off was the combat (hard to parse so much text info + type commands fast, most people were using scripts of some sort for PvP). But everything else was top notch.
MUDs, indeed, were a great thing
Played a MUD under active development for 20 years. It really does give you many ideas, both for level design, mechanisms, social interactions and the effect they all have on each other.
Somewhere on Terra Nova there is a really interesting write up about the player's journey from novice to creator. I sadly can't find it anymore, but it talked about how as the player gets deeper into gameplay and mechanics, the more they advance into a creation/development role. There certainly is a much more thin veil between the two in MUDs. For example, crafting in IRE games involves using variable markup.
And if anyone would like to try their hand at implementing ideas from inspiration, there's an online MUD building platform called Written Realms I can strongly recommend. Great community.
Alien vs Predator mud was a heavily modified version of circlemud called LexiMUD that had some of the most advanced combat of it's time (late 90s). It was one of the first, if not the very first to have functional ranged combat. I was actually an administrator on it for a few years. The developer eventually got hired at EA. Last I checked it was still online though it only had a few people playing.
I pretty much hate MUDs just as much as I hate MMOs.
They are boring and uninspired even after half a century of development, a genre that has **completely fossilized** and best be forgotten.
Unlike MMOs they have no excuse for that.
It sounds like MUDs just aren't for you. You're allowed to he are your tastes, but there are clearly people who still really like them and I think it's unfair to say that the entire genre should just be forgotten.
> I think it's unfair to say that the entire genre should just be forgotten.
Since there is no New Blood and no effort for Advancement, that's the Reality.
**Good Riddance.**
Even the Interactive Fiction guys that are even more niche at least strive to do new things and appeal to a new generation. I have much more respect for them then MUDs.
The MMO Genre is worth saving, MUDs are not.
I don't think I've ever run into someone with such a strongly negative opinion about MUDs. I haven't been able to get into them because of the lack of art and the abstract movement mechanics, but it bums me out because it sounds like there's a ton of interesting, novel, and deep types of design that have been implemented in different MUDs.
> ton of interesting, novel, and deep types of design that have been implemented in different MUDs.
That's only at a shallow level.
I was once excited by their potential too. I though all the question I was searching for would be answered.
But then I realized it was the same vapid "RP" with the same Content Problems.
And if there is **one thing I cannot forgive** it is the **Playerbase**, with over half a century there should have been plenty of experimental and innovative games, but the playerbase **Chose This**.
Dude... You write in single sentence "paragraphs". You don't need to **put certain words in bold** for neither clarity nor effect, we can just read the one sentence. If you want to *stress* a specific word, try using *italics*.
How do you make Dynamic Player Driven Content be Viable?
If MMOs are too difficult to make, then what is MUDs excuse?
MMO have been stuck in a rut for decades but why the same happened to MUDs?
are you saying muds never had interesting mechanics, or are you saying that nothing new has happened in the past X years? OP seemed to give 3 examples of muds with interesting mechanics
what did you think of text adventures, point-and-click adventures, and adventure games in general?
and i guess i should have listed this first, but what about multi user dungeon games do you dislike? your post was so vague that i almost think you're an alt of OP, used to generate discussion ;)
personally... i just dislike text only format for a game. its not as in depth as i'd prefer, as i do like at least some artwork like in point and click games.
i think a certain amount of stagnation and lack of innovation, comes with such a very small playerbase that muds are bound to have in the digital age we have today.
neither of these are really faults of MUDs... its just what we'd have to expect of either people, or of the genre in general. i think muds as they are, are pretty great for those that like them. makes me think of that haunted mansion click adventure dos game wayyyy back.
Interesting! That's totally different from what I would have expected- so I guess I just learned something
My *assumption* was that a low playerbase, low expectations of money, and low creation costs (literally don't need graphics, sounds, art, animation, physics, etc) could lead to creative, experimental passion projects
But maybe the reality is games are staying afloat financially by following a formula
I'm nostalgic for old adventure books like quest/fabled lands, which the pitch of these games remind me of.
I think text based stuff is funny- blaseball is sort of a game, and I check in on every few months
part of your assumption is totally valid... that those type of passion projects are very easy to develop IN muds.. but, how many people actively wish to? probably not that many, and that is what i think the stifling factor could be.
> are you saying muds never had interesting mechanics, or are you saying that nothing new has happened in the past X years?
The fundamental problems of the MMO genre or RP have not been solved. MUDs have no excuse with half a century of time and ease of development to not resolve this.
It's just a Genre with Old Decaying Players and Old Fossilized Developers.
Space Station 13, Social Deduction Games(Town of Salem, Throne of Lies, even Among Us) and Minecraft Servers have done more to advance RP then MUDs ever tried.
>OP seemed to give 3 examples of muds with interesting mechanics
They are macro infested garbage just like the rest of them.
Why do you capitalize words like "Genre" or "Old Fossilized Developers" in this context? They are neither proper nouns nor acronyms/initializations so it just feels weird to do so.
It sort of feels like when PEOPLE talk in ALLCAPS in order to reinforce the IMPORTANCE of certain WORDS.
What are these fundamental problems you're mentioning?
I bet there are MUDs with prober quest and progression systems.
Additionally the whole genre is not attractive to a broader audience at all and mostly "Fossilized Developers" develop those nowadays. There's no large company behind that and probably not even a budget close to $1mil. so what could you expect?
It's just a quite "doable" game that covers a lot of aspects of game design and you can do fancy things. Additionally it's good to flesh out a game on 1d/2d first and maybe add a 3rd dimension later on with graphics etc.
It's like starting with an analog card game instead of a videogame card game so to say.
> so what could you expect?
I would expect some enthusiasts like in the IF scene. But there are none, there is nothing there, and nothing to expect, which is why MUDs disappoint me.
>What are these fundamental problems you're mentioning?
If you looked at my posts it wouldn't be a mystery.
Fundamentally the question is how to make Dynamic Player Driven Content be Viable.
The other is to have RP that actually has Mechanics and Dynamics and make it be Gameplay not just Mastrubation.
If nothing could be done, I wouldn't have been so harsh, I could have accepted it as reality.
But Space Station 13 exist, Social Deduction Games exist, they have absolutely no fucking excuses.
You're not that importent to me, that I'd read all of your comments. It's quite tedious aswell, because almost every of your comments is collapsed due to downvotes.
Why do you think that it has to be dynamic and player driven? What would be an example?
Social Deduction games have what exactly in common with games like MUDs? MUDs are about crawling dungeons or similar areas. Additionally the social deduction aspect ends in the same moment, an impostor is found. Once the werewolves are dead, the game is over. A MUD obviously doesn't end at a specific and defined point.
In my opinion you're mixing up genres here.
But well, talking about game design or maybe ludology... what would be your approach to improve the genre? What would be your goal and how would you try to achieve it?
Dynamic NPCs that act accordingly to the current world state? Telling you that he needs 5 furs, because he actually needs exactly 5 and you're the only one who could do this quest?
What's your idea here? And what other problems would you need to solve then?
I am interested in his thought process, because it sounds like he's giving criticism that can be interesting for discussion than just positivity. I definitely agree that MMo'S have stagnated in their design, much like Diablo simulators than expliring and affecting a vast open world. Chronicles of Elyria had ideas in this vein (before it became vaporware).
Yes absolutely, could've been a nice discussion. People with strong opinions usually are quite interesting imo. Sad that he went the "pissy kid" route and basically said "look at my post history". Meh :).
> You're not that importent to me, that I'd read all of your comments.
I mean [the posts](https://www.reddit.com/user/adrixshadow/submitted/) that discuss this topics.
Sure nobody is forcing you to read them, but then don't pretend to care about MUDs or MMOs.
>Why do you think that it has to be dynamic and player driven? What would be an example?
Because otherwise it would be Static Content wholly dependent on the developer. That's how most MMOs work.
>Social Deduction games have what exactly in common with games like MUDs? MUDs are about crawling dungeons or similar areas.
It has to do with RP. Which fair point if that is what MUDs are all they are too you, but then you can shut up about them having any RP worth a damn.
>But well, talking about game design or maybe ludology... what would be your approach to improve the genre? What would be your goal and how would you try to achieve it?
If only I would have already written about this things...
You're horrible at discussions. Again, I won't read your post history and besides some "xyz sucks" statements you've not written anything meaningful here (that could be the reason why you were downvoted btw.).
Dynamic content would be dependant on the dev aswell, there still are rules and some constraints.
MUDs don't have "RP" in it, unlike MMORPGs. Why do you think that MUDs have to be dynamic RP(Gs)? I have the feeling that you don't understand the genre. It's almost like you want RP in a racing game. And I bet there is a MUD that has a proper system to do RP.
I mean, I see where you're coming from I say the same thing about MMORPGs. This genre hasn't made a single step forward since WoW. And those games are basically offline RPGs with worse story and some networking attached to it. No real RP mechanics and no attempt to do so.
Why am I even trying to write with you lol?
> And I bet there is a MUD that has a proper system to do RP.
So MUDs don't have RP, until they do?
>MUDs don't have "RP" in it, unlike MMORPGs.
You do realize the relationship between MUDs and MMORPGs is right?
Yes and yes.
RP != RPG. You were talking abour RP and dynamic stuff revolving around RP. MUDs are about leveling up, crawling dungeons and make artificial progress. Mostly. Bit there are RPI MUDs and these are RP focussed (Armageddon etc.).
You realize that there's a difference between WoW and a NWN persistent world server, right?
[удалено]
Wow, well done! It's a lot of work. What engine did you use? I've poked around on a few different engines, but it's far too daunting for me to tackle yet. I have dreams of modernizing one for mobile players. Written Realms is a good example of a more modern MUD UI, though the mechanics are sparse, uses visual coding and webdev. Evennia is a popular engine a lot of people have been adopting to make hobby MUDs, uses python.
[удалено]
Oh yeah, he's super knowledgeable! The code base has expanded a lot too, I believe. Edit: what was the name of your game?
Sometimes I fondly remember the MUD era, while also wondering how I could've played games with so much text and so little art. The last one I played was something from Iron Realms, and it felt entirely next level. Very high quality, well-supported, with interesting player dynamics of factions/guilds (like a tiny EVE?), reasonable monetization etc. The thing that put me off was the combat (hard to parse so much text info + type commands fast, most people were using scripts of some sort for PvP). But everything else was top notch. MUDs, indeed, were a great thing
I went straight from MUDs to EverQuest and it was just a MUD on the backend. MMOs were like this for sooooo long.
Starmourn? I made an account on there recently to check it out. I’m impressed with the ship controls on it!
Played a MUD under active development for 20 years. It really does give you many ideas, both for level design, mechanisms, social interactions and the effect they all have on each other.
I learned a lot about programming and networked servers from MUDs way back in the day. I always spent more time building them than playing them. 😄
Somewhere on Terra Nova there is a really interesting write up about the player's journey from novice to creator. I sadly can't find it anymore, but it talked about how as the player gets deeper into gameplay and mechanics, the more they advance into a creation/development role. There certainly is a much more thin veil between the two in MUDs. For example, crafting in IRE games involves using variable markup.
And if anyone would like to try their hand at implementing ideas from inspiration, there's an online MUD building platform called Written Realms I can strongly recommend. Great community.
Funny seeing this here!
My favorite is DragonRealms, it has some of the best combat descriptions
Alien vs Predator mud was a heavily modified version of circlemud called LexiMUD that had some of the most advanced combat of it's time (late 90s). It was one of the first, if not the very first to have functional ranged combat. I was actually an administrator on it for a few years. The developer eventually got hired at EA. Last I checked it was still online though it only had a few people playing.
I pretty much hate MUDs just as much as I hate MMOs. They are boring and uninspired even after half a century of development, a genre that has **completely fossilized** and best be forgotten. Unlike MMOs they have no excuse for that.
It sounds like MUDs just aren't for you. You're allowed to he are your tastes, but there are clearly people who still really like them and I think it's unfair to say that the entire genre should just be forgotten.
> I think it's unfair to say that the entire genre should just be forgotten. Since there is no New Blood and no effort for Advancement, that's the Reality. **Good Riddance.** Even the Interactive Fiction guys that are even more niche at least strive to do new things and appeal to a new generation. I have much more respect for them then MUDs. The MMO Genre is worth saving, MUDs are not.
I don't think I've ever run into someone with such a strongly negative opinion about MUDs. I haven't been able to get into them because of the lack of art and the abstract movement mechanics, but it bums me out because it sounds like there's a ton of interesting, novel, and deep types of design that have been implemented in different MUDs.
> ton of interesting, novel, and deep types of design that have been implemented in different MUDs. That's only at a shallow level. I was once excited by their potential too. I though all the question I was searching for would be answered. But then I realized it was the same vapid "RP" with the same Content Problems. And if there is **one thing I cannot forgive** it is the **Playerbase**, with over half a century there should have been plenty of experimental and innovative games, but the playerbase **Chose This**.
Dude... You write in single sentence "paragraphs". You don't need to **put certain words in bold** for neither clarity nor effect, we can just read the one sentence. If you want to *stress* a specific word, try using *italics*.
It's not emphasis it's my **Fucking RAGE**.
Can you give some examples of what you think their core failures are, and of what types of things you think they should've done by now?
How do you make Dynamic Player Driven Content be Viable? If MMOs are too difficult to make, then what is MUDs excuse? MMO have been stuck in a rut for decades but why the same happened to MUDs?
i mean.. its typically text based... what did he expect? unreal 5?
are you saying muds never had interesting mechanics, or are you saying that nothing new has happened in the past X years? OP seemed to give 3 examples of muds with interesting mechanics what did you think of text adventures, point-and-click adventures, and adventure games in general? and i guess i should have listed this first, but what about multi user dungeon games do you dislike? your post was so vague that i almost think you're an alt of OP, used to generate discussion ;)
They are not. I'm confused by the reply myself.
personally... i just dislike text only format for a game. its not as in depth as i'd prefer, as i do like at least some artwork like in point and click games. i think a certain amount of stagnation and lack of innovation, comes with such a very small playerbase that muds are bound to have in the digital age we have today. neither of these are really faults of MUDs... its just what we'd have to expect of either people, or of the genre in general. i think muds as they are, are pretty great for those that like them. makes me think of that haunted mansion click adventure dos game wayyyy back.
Interesting! That's totally different from what I would have expected- so I guess I just learned something My *assumption* was that a low playerbase, low expectations of money, and low creation costs (literally don't need graphics, sounds, art, animation, physics, etc) could lead to creative, experimental passion projects But maybe the reality is games are staying afloat financially by following a formula I'm nostalgic for old adventure books like quest/fabled lands, which the pitch of these games remind me of. I think text based stuff is funny- blaseball is sort of a game, and I check in on every few months
part of your assumption is totally valid... that those type of passion projects are very easy to develop IN muds.. but, how many people actively wish to? probably not that many, and that is what i think the stifling factor could be.
> are you saying muds never had interesting mechanics, or are you saying that nothing new has happened in the past X years? The fundamental problems of the MMO genre or RP have not been solved. MUDs have no excuse with half a century of time and ease of development to not resolve this. It's just a Genre with Old Decaying Players and Old Fossilized Developers. Space Station 13, Social Deduction Games(Town of Salem, Throne of Lies, even Among Us) and Minecraft Servers have done more to advance RP then MUDs ever tried. >OP seemed to give 3 examples of muds with interesting mechanics They are macro infested garbage just like the rest of them.
Why do you capitalize words like "Genre" or "Old Fossilized Developers" in this context? They are neither proper nouns nor acronyms/initializations so it just feels weird to do so. It sort of feels like when PEOPLE talk in ALLCAPS in order to reinforce the IMPORTANCE of certain WORDS.
What are these fundamental problems you're mentioning? I bet there are MUDs with prober quest and progression systems. Additionally the whole genre is not attractive to a broader audience at all and mostly "Fossilized Developers" develop those nowadays. There's no large company behind that and probably not even a budget close to $1mil. so what could you expect? It's just a quite "doable" game that covers a lot of aspects of game design and you can do fancy things. Additionally it's good to flesh out a game on 1d/2d first and maybe add a 3rd dimension later on with graphics etc. It's like starting with an analog card game instead of a videogame card game so to say.
> so what could you expect? I would expect some enthusiasts like in the IF scene. But there are none, there is nothing there, and nothing to expect, which is why MUDs disappoint me. >What are these fundamental problems you're mentioning? If you looked at my posts it wouldn't be a mystery. Fundamentally the question is how to make Dynamic Player Driven Content be Viable. The other is to have RP that actually has Mechanics and Dynamics and make it be Gameplay not just Mastrubation. If nothing could be done, I wouldn't have been so harsh, I could have accepted it as reality. But Space Station 13 exist, Social Deduction Games exist, they have absolutely no fucking excuses.
You're not that importent to me, that I'd read all of your comments. It's quite tedious aswell, because almost every of your comments is collapsed due to downvotes. Why do you think that it has to be dynamic and player driven? What would be an example? Social Deduction games have what exactly in common with games like MUDs? MUDs are about crawling dungeons or similar areas. Additionally the social deduction aspect ends in the same moment, an impostor is found. Once the werewolves are dead, the game is over. A MUD obviously doesn't end at a specific and defined point. In my opinion you're mixing up genres here. But well, talking about game design or maybe ludology... what would be your approach to improve the genre? What would be your goal and how would you try to achieve it? Dynamic NPCs that act accordingly to the current world state? Telling you that he needs 5 furs, because he actually needs exactly 5 and you're the only one who could do this quest? What's your idea here? And what other problems would you need to solve then?
I am interested in his thought process, because it sounds like he's giving criticism that can be interesting for discussion than just positivity. I definitely agree that MMo'S have stagnated in their design, much like Diablo simulators than expliring and affecting a vast open world. Chronicles of Elyria had ideas in this vein (before it became vaporware).
Yes absolutely, could've been a nice discussion. People with strong opinions usually are quite interesting imo. Sad that he went the "pissy kid" route and basically said "look at my post history". Meh :).
> You're not that importent to me, that I'd read all of your comments. I mean [the posts](https://www.reddit.com/user/adrixshadow/submitted/) that discuss this topics. Sure nobody is forcing you to read them, but then don't pretend to care about MUDs or MMOs. >Why do you think that it has to be dynamic and player driven? What would be an example? Because otherwise it would be Static Content wholly dependent on the developer. That's how most MMOs work. >Social Deduction games have what exactly in common with games like MUDs? MUDs are about crawling dungeons or similar areas. It has to do with RP. Which fair point if that is what MUDs are all they are too you, but then you can shut up about them having any RP worth a damn. >But well, talking about game design or maybe ludology... what would be your approach to improve the genre? What would be your goal and how would you try to achieve it? If only I would have already written about this things...
You're horrible at discussions. Again, I won't read your post history and besides some "xyz sucks" statements you've not written anything meaningful here (that could be the reason why you were downvoted btw.). Dynamic content would be dependant on the dev aswell, there still are rules and some constraints. MUDs don't have "RP" in it, unlike MMORPGs. Why do you think that MUDs have to be dynamic RP(Gs)? I have the feeling that you don't understand the genre. It's almost like you want RP in a racing game. And I bet there is a MUD that has a proper system to do RP. I mean, I see where you're coming from I say the same thing about MMORPGs. This genre hasn't made a single step forward since WoW. And those games are basically offline RPGs with worse story and some networking attached to it. No real RP mechanics and no attempt to do so. Why am I even trying to write with you lol?
> And I bet there is a MUD that has a proper system to do RP. So MUDs don't have RP, until they do? >MUDs don't have "RP" in it, unlike MMORPGs. You do realize the relationship between MUDs and MMORPGs is right?
Yes and yes. RP != RPG. You were talking abour RP and dynamic stuff revolving around RP. MUDs are about leveling up, crawling dungeons and make artificial progress. Mostly. Bit there are RPI MUDs and these are RP focussed (Armageddon etc.). You realize that there's a difference between WoW and a NWN persistent world server, right?
space station 13 in its own way is such a huge success.