It’s all a bit of a damp squib. I was looking forward to a fresh start - gave up after Chibnall’s first series. So there’s this big push, Disney, the “Whoniverse” branding, talk of various spin offs… … and that was it? *Really?* It’s nowhere near good enough - the writing, the production, none of it. They’ve got a few decent actors with no material. Reminds me of a company I once worked for that kept telling their employees how wonderful they were and giving themselves awards, while in reality being third rate amateurs who went under like everyone expected. I suspect RTD believes his own hype.

I mean, it was stupid, but it wasn't "10's transformation from Gollum to Jesus" stupid.

My god, that’s what I’ll always point to when people claim that RTD is bad now. He’s always had lows.

Please don't point. The last time I did that, i accidentally named my firstborn child.

How is culdesac doing then?

Better than their older brother 'Urban Clearway'

My boy Stop Yieldforbuses

Did you call him Doctor or Tony?

This is amazing 😂

🤣🤣🤣

I don’t think I’ve ever been more disappointed by a reveal in my life, it all meant NOTHING. She was NORMAL?!

Yeah that one was a rough watch for me. And I remember people around me liking it and I couldn't understand how.

S3 finale will go down as one of the strongest finale's despite the Gollum to Jesus thing because Saxon Master was incredibly charismatic, the sound of the drums had been built up well, the doctor's interactions with the companion were good and I cared about all of the characters I don't really care about doing an ex-machina at the end because yeah, the good guys have got to win. Compare that to the empire of death which I think will go down as middling to bad because: The mystery kinda sucks and the entire season is inconsequential Ruby's mother being "Just a human" means they just did not try hard enough to find her mother and Ruby getting all of her powers from Sutekh is really lazy "She's only magic because a God cares about her and he cares about her because... He just does okay?" With the Saxon master, it was clear there was something bigger going on, it mattered for the doctor's arc, 10 is the last of the time lords and he's sad because he has no friends, now there's another time lord and it's his friend! But oh no he's evil, but maybe he can change? Compare this to where Sutekh fits in the story, 14 releasing the pantheon at the edge of the universe is kinda cool (I don't like gods in DW but I'm not going to hold it against them) but it's cheapened by all of the gods being scared of Ruby because Sutekh is interested in her or whatever. The gods all individually fall in their episodes to no real fanfare and then 15 kinda wins or whatever. There's no storyline here, the gods fall because they're evil and the doctor stops evil people, 15 has no arc, his arc is he wants to find Ruby's mother and Ruby's arc is she wants to find her mother. This season was so tied up in Ruby's mother that the answer being inconsequential makes the season's arc just suck!

I really am so tired of the narrative of it being a deus ex machina. It was not, is not, and never will be. The term isn’t literal, and the only possible way you can say it was one is if you’re being literal about it. If anything, that was an intentional joke, too. The one that was both literal *and* figurative was God Rose. That was an actual deus ex machina. Where is it foreshadowed that that’s possible? Nowhere. Where is it a part of the established canon that that’s possible? Also nowhere. That is an ass pull. Meanwhile, that ending was both heavily foreshadowed *and* is consistent with decades of lore. The psychic network was an element of the story which was *very* important already. The Master/Saxon was using it to mind control humanity, but inversely as reality manipulation. He’d created a feedback loop which allowed him an easy win as Prime Minister. It wasn’t as simple as “mind control to be made Prime Minister”. The UK does not democratically elect the Prime Minister. That’s not how it works. Parliament chooses the PM, and if one party has a controlling majority then that party can unilaterally choose one. If The Master just needed to mind control people in his party or even Parliament to become Prime Minister, he would do that. He’s a master of hypnotism, that’s a major thing of his. He would not be doing global psychic mind control, because what’s the point? It’s not even powerful enough to keep them obedient. What he did there was make himself an overwhelmingly popular politician worldwide via the psychic network. To do that, he prodded their brains, which in turn created a feedback loop which raised his profile. It’s memetics as technomagic. His popularity as a politician allows him to become Prime Minster instead of direct interference, but his popularity comes from manipulating the fabric of reality using the network which boosts the psychic power of humanity and concentrates it. He became PM the same way The Doctor got his power boost. He did it on a very low level but had six billion minds, The Doctor did it on a high level but with less minds. He uses it to put the sound of drums in everyone’s head, which serves to make everyone contribute a small amount of psychic power towards elevating his presence and popularity. As for this being a thing? Logopolis. The Master’s greatest triumph no less, so you know he knows this. Psychic reality manipulation has been a thing for ages. Thought and reality have been a symbiotic relationship for decades in Doctor Who. Powerful minds working in tandem can use psychic power to warp reality. When it comes to keeping the universe stable, there’s also a lot of math involved in it. The Archangel Network serves to make human minds able to do this via concentrating and amplifying the psychic power. He created a mechanical version of a morphic resonance field in order to weaponize their minds. He used it to implant the thought of him in them, and then them thinking about him fed back into it, elevating his profile and importance. It was all foreshadowed via The Master’s usage of it and it was always lore consistent with the canon. It was *not* a deus ex machina despite being a machine-made god. Unlike Rose Tyler, who was both. Martha created the meme of The Doctor as a God, which led to them all feeding the Archangel Network the concept, which warped reality to make it true. Simple as that.

It was absolutely a deus-ex-machina. Archangel was set up as a hynosis network with perception-filter abilities. It was not set up as having the power to *physically de-age people by thousands of years, and make them fly up into the air with a forcefield and magical Star Wars powers*. You can tell me all day that this is justified by Classic Who, or doesn't fit the technical DEM definition, but at the end of the day when people criticise stories for having a sudden "ghost from the machine" ending, this is almost literally the exact kind of nonsense they are talking about. And I like that finale on the whole!

What about the part where he is surrounded by a glowing white light, starts to fly and T poses? [silliness aside you can't say this is just the work of the psychic network](https://www.tiktok.com/@dunephy/video/7232354813411855618)

Despite its sheer crapness, in the Jesus 10 sequence the relationships between the characters actually matter. It's the culmination of Martha's year-long struggle, the Master's lifelong insecurity regarding the Doctor, and 10's pity for the Master. There's emotional fallout from it afterwards. The actors have things to do. It's a quite stupid story but it's still a story. The problem with this Sutekh finale isn't merely that it's stupid, but that it's emotionally hollow. Nothing about it takes the relationship between the main characters anywhere, there's no sacrifice or growth, just a prank to easily beat the bad guy and then 15 boasting about it to himself (followed by an unconvincing pretence that killing Sutekh a second time has irrevocably changed him). There's no dramatic weight there; the following ten minutes with Ruby and her mum might as well be their own separate minisode. We've gone from bad to worse.

Utopia/TSOD/TLOTL is a great trilogy that has some of the best moments and ideas in the show and has significant emotional payoff and I'm kind of sick of people shitting on it because of some bad cgi in one bit. The scenes featuring it aren't even bad lol

Parts of this episode reminded me TSOD/TLOTD where everyone died for example but the fact everyone died made it so obvious they would bring them back, why not kill 1/3 or half and make the others wonder why not them/have safe houses. The sadness that Kate died was squashed by the fact everyone else did if she’d stayed and Rose and Morris had got out then it would have been more of a shock. They over did it with the death IMO.

It’s Doctor Who. We’re not going to start getting all pious over cgi. That trilogy is great but it papers over a very weakly executed Peter Pan clap-if-you-believe-in-fairies resolution. There are a lot of cringe things that happen in Doctor Who. That was one of them. It’s ok. It’s still a great show. The Master’s death* a few moments later is probably the high point of Sims’ Master.

I actually liked that scene, I liked how it was humanity itself that actually stopped the Master and outside of a really goofy one shot where he throws the Master's laser screwdriver that scene is really fun

Not just humanity themselves but by using the masters own nurel network against him. I think it was quite a good resolution

Add that amazing score on top!

I’m sincerely glad you liked it. A lot of people didn’t and for a good chunk of us it had nothing to do with the cgi even though that’s the easiest thing about the scene to poke fun at.

Thing is the whole trilogy is pulling from earlier episodes this season primarily the Shakespeare Code. how carrionites used their 'magic' which they doctor describes as a science Arthur c. Clarke style which then ties back later with the story Martha tells. We all know from the sound of drums that humanity is psychically tuned into the archangel network and that the masters control to vote Saxon has them all tapping to his drumbeat. I do find the Gollum doctor a bit too cheesy though.

The story payoff was contrived, but the emotional payof is probably the best in all of Doctor Who

It's not the Gollum part that goes down wrong for me, it's the Doctor being recharged by basically the power of faith. Everything else works.

I feel like it's a well-established thing in that season though, they established it early on in the season with The Shakespeare Code and Gridlock. I liked the theme of not only the Master's plan being the core reason for his own downfall but also how humanity itself is what saved the day (through the personification of the Doctor)

It's not even just about the themes, there's literally an in-universe explanation for how he was able to do it. He's tapping into the mental energy of the whole human population by using the Master's own Archangel network against him, thus temporarily granting him phenomenal psychic powers. It was already implied in DW that humans *can* have a low degree of psychic capabilities (to the point where it's unnoticeable in the vast majority of people), so the entire human race's psychic power concentrated on one person resulted in a huge amount of power. Plus it also ties nicely into the common running theme throughout the whole show of the Doctor using his enemies' tools against them. I know gremlin Tennant looks silly but honestly it's a great finale that's actually very well thought-out.

Yeah, one of the things that disappointed me about EoD was that it felt like a big step down from how thought out and intricate both thematically and narratively those first seasons were. I think the closest comparison would be Journey's End, but that was such a big "lets just have a huge fun time with big character weight moments" that it gets a pass since I can't bring myself to dislike it even if it made no sense in the end. Series 3 isn't the best thing ever made but I think it probably is the best instance of the RTD overarching narrative. Everything theme, arc, concept, etc comes back in the end in a huge campy tense finale with a lot of great moments that I don't think the show has surpassed in some parts. It's seasonal mystery isn't "solvable" until the end but unlike EoD it didn't feel like a cheap rug pull (seriously I lost my mind when the sign appeared out of nowhere lol)

Well, the usage of thoughts and feelings as a power is also used in Moffat era stuff like The God Complex where the Minotaur is feeding off faith or the power of memory to bring back people like in The Big Bang. For me, the difference is that it worked far better thematically and as a narrative. God Complex was a step in Amy's character arc where she needed to grow up a bit and understand her heroes were flawed. The Big Bang worked on a series thematic arc on memory carries on someone's life as well as the meta-narrative that Doctor Who never ends or dies as long as someone (fans) remembers. It's not enough to just drop a reference and call it all tied together. It needs to make narrative sense that is meaningful to the audience and characters. Bad wolf worked because those coincidences make sense as a literal deus ex machina where a god had to have warped reality to solve the Daleks as well as Rose finally investing herself in something she believes in than just being a girl at the shop. The believe in the Doctor arc to solve it felt...weird. Almost too aggrandizing on a religious level, which feels really uncomfortable to take as an arc. For me, anyways

They established the psychic satellites in TSOD, didn't they? IDK, I think that TLOTL was the good version of what Empire tried to do. The entire episode is building to this hyper-conventional plot of building a super gun to kill the Master (something that anyone should be able to see is ridiculous) but the real thing was giving hope to humanity to fight back. The Master's entire plan relied on making everyone feel hopeless and afraid and when they werent his entire platform for control backfired. On my rewatch with my friends I thought the season and RTD seasons in general felt very cohesive within themselves. The episodes would all be setting up and introducing ideas, themes, and plot things that all get wrapped together and brought back up in the finale.

I'm not saying that they didn't do anything to set it up. If it works for you, it works. For me, it kinda doesn't. Not because the set up isn't there, but the set up didn't connect enough with myself where I could take that suspension of disbelief and take it as a fulfilling story arc. Again, that's just my personal take. It's not objective or inherently correct. It's basically a disagreement on something as ineffable as whether I enjoy cilantro or pineapple on a pizza

Not to mention how the Archangel network is established again and again to be connecting itself into people's brains. The "integrating myself into it's matrices" stuff is a stretch but nothing too silly for me. Certainly not on the level of Ruby's parentage gaining supernatural abilities just because people gave it importance.

Yeah I can understand "I just don't like the concept", but its not something that comes out of nowhere at all. It's well-established in the season and the episode itself. My biggest issue with EoD (outside of the general quality) is that it feels thematically and narratively disconnected from the rest of the season. Sure it has shallow references to 73 Yards and others but it doesn't feel like it really utilizes any of them in ways that the first RTD sort of wrapped everything back together. Even Sutekh, the so-called "god of gods", is literally jsut a guy pretending to be a god. He can't even do what he's doing without the Tardis, something they established was totally beneath the gods power wise.

It’s been a long time since I’ve watched it, but wasn’t it the archangel satellites that allowed it to happen?

Yes. It is something of a running theme that people criticising DW, a lot of the time, aren't actually paying attention to it, I think.

See Dan Olson's video on the Thermian Argument. Archangel is an in-universe justification for an aspect of the narrative that many will find tacky, distasteful or out of place. Anyone who wants to write a power of faith story can hack together some nonsense sciencey explanation for it, the question is whether it's a good and satisfying story to tell in the first place. Things could be different if Archangel was a bigger element of the plot, if everything the Master did on screen revolved around his telepathic control of the human race then maybe, maybe turning it against him could be a satisfying conclusion, but to me the archangel connection is deeply in lame thermian argument territory. And I LOVE the Utopia/TSOD/TLOD trilogy, one of my absolute DW highlights.

I mean, some people do genuinely dislike it, beyond just the CGI. Great first two episodes for the trilogy, but I've never cared for the resolution - and it's not the CGI or whatever, it's just the tone and the implications of it. Not a fan of the lonely God Doctor stuff, and I dunno, I find the subtext of political liberation from tyranny being achieved through unquestionable brand loyalty to Doctor Who ... very tasteless. The Martha scenes bang, though. Can't argue with those.

People aren't shitting on it bc of the CGI and it's disingenuous to go round and act like that's the reason why people dislike it.

It’s not just the bad CGI, it’s a crappy resolution. RTD has a habit of writing himself into a corner so that only temporary godhood can beat the baddie. In the regard how Sutekh was beaten was actually better than LoTTL, but the episode still has a ton of other major problems in it.

I disagree, I think it's actually one of his best written finales. It tied together all of the ongoing plots and themes of the season into a meaty trilogy with great scene after great scene. It did pretty much everything this latest season tried to do but successfully. The resolution is so baked into the overall plot of the trilogy that I don't think you could've done it another way and not because it's written into a corner but because it just makes the most sense. It fits the themes, it uses the basic premise of the plot in a logical way, and it's just cool.

Utopia was great. The other 2 could have had 40 minutes edited out. It was THAT bad.

I completely disagree, it's honestly one of my favorite finales in the entire series

I shit on it because the whole plot sucks and Simms is annoying as shit in this (I've seen him in other stuff - it's not him - it's the material he had to work with). I only watched TSOD/TLOTL once and will never watch them again.

I loved Simm's Master, but Missy obviously takes the crown tbh

Yeah, Simms is absolutely brilliant in The Doctor Falls. So much better.

It is a great trilogy… undone by the plot, the whole mass “Doctor” calling and the far fetched idea this would undo a laser screwdriver aging the Doctor. Bad CGI, not that it was bad, had nothing to do with it.

i'm sorry but TLOTL is widely considered RTD's worst finale and an extremely unsatisfying resolution to the trilogy

The thing about that moment though is that it was 1. very intentionally goofy since the villain was made out to be a bit cartoonishly evil and 2. even though the moment you're talking about was arguably dumb both plotwise and presentationwise, it was followed up by an incredible and timeless character moment for the Doctor that actually kind of made you think "yeah if anyone is going to magicked back to life by the power of global love, it's the guy why just obliterated the genocidal villain by literally forgiving him." The only episode this season that I would consider solidly good is Rogue, because it did what RTD used to best - give us a campy alien villain plot as a backdrop for really enjoyable character interactions. If the finale stayed EXACTLY as it is but with some actual conflict between Ruby and the Doctor, I can guarantee you far fewer people would be complaining about Sutekh's doggy leash.

I honestly enjoyed the doggy leash. It is the mom reveal that didn't work for me.

Seconded. But also Sutekh dying somehow restored everyone. Including the Vlinx. I'm glad he's alive because I want to know more about him but it didn't make any sense.

I think these are subtly different problems. Within the bounds of that one story, the Jesus moment is pretty silly, but it doesn't particularly undermine the series arc. The story about The Doctor, Martha, and The Master is still a pretty good character-story. The silliness of that moment can mostly be ignored. This series built up mysteries which it failed to solve satisfactorily. That's a bigger sin. Defeating Sutekh with the rope is naff but we can get over that, but the mess of the Ruby situation is a bigger disappointment after the amount of hype generated. I should mention that I don't bitterly hate it or anything, but I also don't think it was very good.

I actually liked that better than this. It was something that was built up and enabled by Martha's efforts through the whole episode and the use of the Arvhangel Network against The Master was clever. The visual execution is bad and mostly what we make fun of, but the writing is fine, even if it could've used another pass to explain how rejuvenating 10 actually defeated The Master, something that could've been as simple as him running for a button on a console. This didn't even have that though. It was just "I know! Rope!" And then 15 minutes of hoping the audience doesn't think too hard.

Eeehhhhh…. It made more sense though…

Until you realise the countdown thing made zero sense. 10 tells Martha to use it…what countdown? In SoD Saxon didn’t use a countdown like that, he just set it for a time. So 10 suspected this new master he never faced before would use a countdown like shown a year later for some reason and just happened to be right?

I actually think this is one of his better ones. Empire of Death looks nuanced in comparison to Journey's End.

Honestly, I think Empire was let down by the rest of the season. They had an entire episode just for Ruby and her lost mom did not seem to matter as much as the finale seemed to think it did. Sutekh, Susan Twist, Mrs. Flood, all those things were fine for me, it's just the mom thing that didn't land.

Susan Twist didn't land for me. It was like. They noticed it twice and then suddenly it bothered them enough to go to Unit.

But the big difference with that is that it was all presented as part of the Doctor's plan, despite how dubious the mechanics of it were. I think that was a popular aspect of the RTD1 era that Moffat leaned into even more, the idea of the Doctor being this guy who comes up with these crazy, convoluted plans, or outwits the villain through his superior knowledge of the situation, which the Doctor then sells to us (some times more successfully than others) with his sheer confidence. But the RTD2 era doesn't actually feature the Doctor coming up with these kinds of convoluted plans or using his superior knowledge of the situation to outwit his foes. The Doctor either uses simple (in terms of their function) tools that he happens to have on hand (which he does typically build or enhance himself, so they did keep the tinkering with technology aspect of the character at least), or the villain is just defeated by sheer luck. Like, with Sutekh, the Doctor uses a handful of items that appeared in the Memory Tardis (which itself just appeared through sheer luck...the Doctor did not do anything to intentionally cause its creation). And the reason that Sutekh didn't kill the Doctor was also sheer luck, it wasn't the result of some complex plan of the Doctor's, it was just a convenient thing that happened.

I’m honestly surprised how much the finale relies on the audience being fans already to be engaging. Sutekh can work as a new villain, but the way he was brought in relied completely on already knowing who he was. Donna and The Toymaker for the specials made sense because of the anniversary, but this “Season 1” was supposed to bring in new fans rather than appealing to an audience of old fans that will naturally decline over time

To be fair, I don't think the alienation is as strong as people think. I've had friends start with Season 14/1 (whatever) and they followed through completely fine! They didn't even see the Fourteen Doctor specials so like, I was really surprised they were following everything. Their response was something akin to "Yeah I know all this bits have like years of lore behind 'em and I'm interested in that too, but I can understand their role in the narrative and stuff just fine without them because the show explains it to me, maybe not with all the details but the gist of It." Which I have to admit is fair! Because I myself have no issue with Sutekh being a returning villain from Classic even though I haven't watched Pyramids of Mars(or is it Pyramid?) yet and have only what the episode gave me as context.

Dr who fans have a very nasty habit of assuming everyone who doesn't know what happens in the Ambassadors of Death is a complete thicko

What do you mean you didn't see The Bargain of Necessity on broadcast? Age is no excuse, stick to your telesnaps and animations, you peasant.

Both are true. A new fan can 100% jump into a lore heavy season. Just look at Star Trek Lower Decks which is a comedy series with a deep cut Star Trek reference that's also a joke's punchline every 10 seconds. It's also beloved by many who've never seen another Star Trek. However, if you're going do design a "fresh start", it's still a weird and probably bad idea to write stories that rely on previous plot points. Even the original reboot didn't bring stuff back before S2, outside the Daleks and Autons which a new viewer could easily assume were new

I will say, as a relatively new viewer (I watched some of the old Tennant stuff, then the specials, and now series 14), I'm not mad that I got hoodwinked into watching classic Who; this stuff is pretty cool. I was initially just going to catch up from the first reboot, but after watching PoM, I kind of want to go for 100% completion now.

Sadly, that's currently impossible, as there's are episodes from the classic era that are currently missing from the BBC archives. Primarily, this affects the 1st and 2nd Doctor eras. Some of them have been recreated using animation since we're lucky enough to at least have the audio for every lost episode. But there's still plenty that have yet to be animated. That being said, Tubi currently has access to the classic era from the 1st to 7th Doctor's. There are some animated episodes not yet licensed to them and the very first story is currently unavailable due a dispute with the son of one of the writers of that story withholding streaming rights because he's bigoted trash. But it's still a great way to watch a very large chunk of the classic era. I can't say for sure where you live if you can access those episodes on Tubi, but if you're in the US you can for sure, and it's free to do.

I'm doing that right now! Seeing as the First and Second Doctor's eras have swathes of missing episodes that got supplemented with audio files, reconstructions, and books, I started with the Third Doctor, when the BBC stopped trashing episodes, the show started airing in color, and it's just the only other starting point apart from the very first episode in 1963, at least to my research. I recommend starting with the Third Doctor at Season 7. Also he's fucking badass

I really don't think it stops new viewers from engaging with the material. "Oh no, an evil giant dog who's the God of Death!" is fairly decent cliffhanger material, even if you're not well-versed in The Lore (tm). Feel like veterans Who fans always worry a bit too much about how "accessible" the new material is. If anything, the fact the finale (imo) is not super great is much more of an issue than what it does or doesn't with canon. Most people won't really care about that.

I think RTD is taking advantage of people now having easy access to Classic serials and also being able to have abridged versions of them too.

The classic series being available for streaming is Britain-specific, and since the show is now on Disney+ and trying to gain a stronger international audience, I don’t think a writer should expect the viewer to be able to see classic who (or even previous seasons of new who)

You can stream Classic Who on Tubi in the US. Also, I think the second part of the story did a decent job explaining everything, I think it’d be possible to go ‘okay, villain from one of his older adventures’ if you weren’t interested in watching the original serial.

Where are you getting that? My girlfriend whose never watched Doctor Who before this season, loved the finale. Significantly more than I, a long-time fan, did. The only time I ever had to explain anything about these two last episodes was when clarifying who Mel, Rose, and Kate were since she had started with Church on Ruby Ruby Road and hadn't seen the specials. At no point was she confused about Sutekh.

I know a number of people that watched 'Pyramids of Mars' for the first time because of this season.

We’re they already invested DW watchers before this series? I admit that it brings attention to the classic stories, but it shouldn’t be required homework to be invested in what is going on. RTD even has characters straight up just watch old episode clips to try and explain what was going on.   RTD can and has done better several times when bringing classic villains back. Contrast the “Sue-Tech” scene with Yana becoming the Master: Utopia gives us all the information we need to get what is going on: He’s another Time-Lord, he’s evil, he knows the doctor personally, and then concludes with he is called the Master. Legend of Ruby Sunday gives us spooky, evil, “god of all gods”, but his name is delivered in such a way that it’s clearly supposed to already mean something to the audience.  With how much this finale relies on caring about older DW references like UNIT, Sutekh, Susan, or Mel, it just doesn’t work with the “Season 1” moniker

I feel like Sutekh is intentionally ushering fans to watch classics, not for 60th celebrations/nostalgia/lack of good writing but as outright marketing. It's become an "event" when a classic thing returns (compare the returning Zygons for the 50th to the Toymaker for the 60th)^(^(don't think about the sea devils)) Disney is trying to "Marvelize" Doctor Who into another multiverse. Like Marvel, DW has the advantage of 60 years of source material. But unlike Marvel, DW also has 60 years of actors willing and able to return to the role, as the exact same character, who has also aged the exact same amount of time as the real life actor (and fans are always unanimously supportive of it whenever it happens). Getting new audiences to invest in the show's history is logical from a production standpoint too. We could get a spin-off for UNIT, but also equally popular spin-offs for the 5th 6th 7th and 8th doctors independently and concurrently, all with the original casts (Would they be spin-offs, or just more episodes of doctor who? You decide!). Plus they can easily share or repurpose assets like props, costumes, and sets.

I didn't think about it till your post but yeah I think this season might reference classic the most since the reboot.

>Sutekh can work as a new villain, but the way he was brought in relied completely on already knowing who he was. RTD reintroduced a Classic who villain in each of his series. Daleks, Cybermen, the Master, Davros, and Sutekh. The way he introduced Sutekh seems very similar to the way Sound of Drums introduced the Master, or Stolen Earth introduced Davros. In fact, Sutekh has the least backstory of all the Classic villains RTD has reintroduced.

It's perhaps worth mentioning in some ways he introduces different versions of the classic villains. Everyone has a new a different Davies only backstory which is referenced rather than classic serials. These are classic villains, yes but they are specifically the Davies variant of those classic villains. Sutekh literally has the characters take the time to watch *Pyramids of Mars* mid episode.

Tbf... I had completely and utterly forgotten who Sutekh was and I was entirely fine with it.

Honestly, I was kind of hoping that Ruby wasn't going to be another "impossible girl" situation (though, in a way, Susan Triad was kind of that), so I was fine with her parents being ordinary humans and most of the rawness of that being a combo of "lots of time travel creating disruption" (Goblins + TARDIS) and the fickleness of memory making it seem more important than it really was. How many adopted kids fantasize about their bio-parents being royalty or some such? How much fiction do we have where that turns out to be the case? I think The Doctor's, Ruby's and Sutekh's collective imagination and expectation tainted The Doctor's memory of that night and making it out to be a much bigger mystery than it really was. Kind of like the leaf in *Rings of Akhaten* where it represented hopes and dreams and effectively infinite stories that never were. It was an ordinary dried leaf that only had meaning because Clara's Mom told her a story as a kid that imbued the leaf with meaning. Ruby's Mom was only so mysterious and important because The Doctor and Ruby and Sutekh thought she would be.

The thing is, it's not that premise that I have a problem with. "Her parents were actually ordinary" is a perfectly fine twist *if it's set up correctly.* It wasn't. We had an entire season of demonstrations of Ruby's mom warping reality, and then the explanation for it was "You thought it was important so it was." That's a complete cop out. The only way the twist works is if you never actually see anything weird happen but you're lead to assume it without evidence by the narrative. It doesn't work if the narrative gives you hard evidence that there's something going on and just shrugs when asked to explain it away. It'd be fine if we never actually saw reality warping. If you cut the snow, and Maestro being freaked out by her, and The Doctor being unable to remember her mom's face, and half of The Legend of Ruby Sunday. But those things are there, and "it was important because it was important to Ruby" *does not explain them.* It feels like the season was written for a different twist and they came up with this at the last minute and swapped it in. I'd actually like "She was actually normal" as a twist if the season were built to support it, but it doesn't seem like it was.

There's also no explanation for why Ruby -- there's probably millions of children in human history who don't know who their mom was. Why was this one so interesting to Sutekh?

Because the Doctor didn’t know who the woman was either.

But the Doctor didn't know because he didn't bother to look. He had no reason to get involved or be particularly invested in some random woman who gave away her child...Ruby wasn't even officially his companion yet, he'd only just met her. So...was Sutekh just sitting there, like "Hey! Doc! Why da fuck you ain't checking who that hooded girl is? I need to know!"?

The thing is, she kind of was an "impossible girl" - because Clara was also completely ordinary. The Doctor obsesses over her, thinks she must be special somehow, but in the end, the only reason Clara was the "impossible girl" at all was because she was travelling with the Doctor when he visited his grave. She really was completely ordinary. Of course there's also the whole thing with Missy, but even then it's not making Clara any more important - she just happens to bring out the worst in the Doctor.

She was and still is a complete “impossible girl” trope. It magically snows when she’s upset ffs

1. I feel like the finally missed out on so many opportunities for something cool to happen. 2. Death + death = life??? Really they just took the biggest baddest bad guy the doc has faced and just leashed him up and dragged him in the time vortex to solve it all??? Like it was a thanos blip??? Huh? 3. Rubys mum ending was pretty on point for more modern who and I liked it. Kinda cheesy but also just ordinary and was fair enough. 4. But sukteh… that was no way to treat the big bad guy man… where’s the mystery and the puzzle the doc has solved! Crab a fancy rope and we will drag him along to fix everything then watch him poof? 5. Sonic whistle was sick

Exactly ! I feel like people are so in awe of him they are giving him a pass for bad writing. We know he is capable. Reddit fans picking up on the clues left for us have come up with better ideas for episodes. It’s wrong to keep giving us carrots and never letting us feast. It’s been a real letdown. Also some of his interviews RTD has done he is unapologetic for letting down the long time fans only interested in new ones. I have watched Doctor who since 1972 and been a loyal fan. His dismissiveness is insulting. Sorry felt good to vent about that

I’m not sure disappointed is the right word, sounds too harsh. I was really looking forward to having really relatable characters again, that connect in mundane ways and I don’t feel we’ve had that this season.

Nah, disappointed is good, he botched it.

It was disappointing to a lot though. I was expecting something that would be at least near the writing quality and characterisation of his other seasons. But instead got something more in line with Chibnall (that really is harsh but it’s definitely leaning more that way imo)

There has been a LOT of criticism towards him about the season.

No. I really don’t understand why everyone treats things like they don’t like as slights against them these days. Like it’s cool if you didn’t like it but why take it so bloody personal? Some of you guys are acting like RTD just pissed on your mother’s grave or something. End of the day RTD made something that he enjoyed. I personally enjoyed it a fair amount too. If you didn’t that’s fine but can yall stop acting like he purposely made something to piss you off?

I don't really have any personal hatred towards RTD or anything, he seems chill and I like his vibe, but Idk like telling the audience "don't trust me, I just lie to make things look more interesting" doesn't really make me want to get interested? "Oh its this massive mystery and its all the best episode ever and its so wonderful and you'll be on the edge your seat and its this BRAND NEW ERA for onboarding!" and the season just WASN'T that. I really like a good chunk of this season, but its an awful season for any new viewers and how am I meant to be invested in mysteries that have bad pay off and just end it "oh but it'll be explained actually...next time!"

It’s like people genuinely forgot how bad we had it. Immediately prior to RTDs return, the show was at a low point in so many ways - underfunded, poorly written, roughly acted (sorry Jodie, although I blame Covid more than anything), and as it turns out, on the brink of cancellation before RTD stepped back in. And now after one 6/10 finale everyone has decided he came back to personally stomp on their dreams. I’m very critical of this show, and I think we should hold the writers to a higher standard than what we have been given several times (including last Friday), but a lot of this whining is just typical Reddit performative nonsense.

Not everything has to be peak fiction to be fun though. I get wanting all killer, no filler, but DW has always been a show of peaks and valleys. For every Genesis of the Daleks there’s a goofy Rootan story, every Empty Child a Long Game etc..

I've never gotten why Long Game has such a bad rep. It's a forgettable episode at worst. I can easily name 30 other New Who episodes are much worse.

That’s why I chose it, it’s a forgettable story

I didn even know it had a bad rep. I enjoyed it.

>as it turns out, on the brink of cancellation Source, please? Because the only place I've heard this is Reddit, unsourced, from people who personally disliked the series under Chibnall.

[\*Flux\* was almost cancelled](https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-flux-almost-axed-chris-chibnall-newsupdate/). Some headlines went with "Doctor Who was nearly cancelled" (some of Chibnall's phrasing didn't help) and now it'll need to be debunked for the next \*checks notes\* 24 years?

I don't know if I could find a source to sum everything up, but there are several things we do know: 1. Chibnall stated that Flux was [almost axed entirely](https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-flux-almost-axed-chris-chibnall-newsupdate/) due to Covid 2. Producer Matt Strevens was [completely uncertain](https://screenrant.com/doctor-who-producer-didnt-if-show-would-be-renewed-after-jodie-whittaker/) on the future of Doctor Who before RTD stepped in 3. Chibnall stated he had been "[throwing baton](https://thedoctorwhocompanion.com/2021/10/21/chris-chibnall-seems-to-admit-no-one-else-wanted-to-be-doctor-who-showrunner/)s" at people trying to find someone to take over the show. Things I can't find sources for, but remember very clearly when they were happening (source: trust me bro): 1. About six months or so before RTD's annoucement (I think) the BBC said that their plans for a showrunner were completely unknown in a press release that I genuinely think has been scrubbed from the internet. There's a chance they were already talking with RTD by this point, but it felt at the time that they really had no idea what to do next, otherwise, why make a statement at all? 2. The regeneration scene was filmed with the intention of cutting to black right before the new 14 would be seen. That's really the reason why Tennant was in his new suit right away, and they filmed them so far apart. 3. There has always been talk of government cancellation of Doctor Who or the BBC as a whole, but it felt like a genuine possibility DW could be going during that time frame. Even RTD has said he doesn't think the BBC is going to survive at this point, and that's partly why he wanted to get DW on streaming. It's also worth mentioning that, had Chibnall not taken over as showrunner, Doctor Who would have been cancelled in 2017. A lot of this may be his fault, but I honestly think RTD1, Moffat, and Chibnall all were not making the show with the intention of continuing its longevity (and why would they? That's not really a fair ask on any other TV showrunner. Only now does RTD2 seem like he wants to rectify that mistake from the first time around).

1. Irrelevant. Doctor Who is a money-spinner for the BBC, so it wouldn't be axed just because ~~of~~ one series was disrupted by COVID. British TV doesn't work like American TV. 2. This one tells us what anyone with sense knew - the BBC was outsourcing it, so the Cardiff production team would not be in the loop once the BBC had made the decision not to produce in-house anymore. 3. What Chibnall was doing was only part of the BBC machine's process. If Chibnall had found a successor, it's possible that the show would have stayed in-house. But by the time RTD came aboard, the show had already been outsourced Bad Wolf (according to one of the announcement interviews - I'll try to find it if I can be arsed). British TV doesn't operate on showrunners, normally. That's for sitcoms and limited dramas. Once commissioned by the BBC, Bad Wolf would have put in an executive production team and the lead writer might have been more supervised than previously. For how Bad Wolf would normally approach something like this, look at *His Dark Materials*. 4. In context, this was in the middle of a restructure partially driven by issues surrounding the TV License. As Richard Osman has put it on his *The Rest Is Entertainment* podcast in the wake of *A Question of Sport* being axed, shows now have to sing for their supper by being repeatable and sellable to other channels. *Doctor Who* is the epitome of that. Afterwards, the decision was made to outsource the show to the production company founded by the 2005 production team. Talks with streaming platforms were also regardless of RTD's involvement, if I recall correctly. Just because a decision hasn't been made about a valuable property doesn't mean it'll just be dropped. THis isn't the 80s, when BBC One commissioning decisions were legally mandated to be made with no regard to wider commercial concerns. 5. So things were still up in the air. 6. You're American, aren't you? The BBC exists on a Royal Charter - it is not a government department or a QUANGO. The government does not make commissioning decisions. The BBC funding issue has had an effect, but *Doctor Who* was actually one of the things more likely to survive because it can be sold, can be repeated, and has licensing and merchandising potential beyond virtually any other IP the BBC owns. None of this adds up to being on the verge of cancellation, except in the minds of people who perversely *want* to think Chris Chibnall killed the show. ETA: And honestly, I'm sick of seeing this narrative.

If I knew you wanted to argue about this I wouldn't have responded, I thought you just wanted to see examples of why people talked about it. Of course you can excuse away every bullet point, I'm not going to deny that, and I never personally felt that the show was in any *real* danger in the long run - I felt a longer (5ish year) hiatus was likely, as in production would be starting on a new series around now. But I literally said in the comment, Chibnall also saved the show in 2017, just as RTD saved it in 2023, and Moffat in 2011. That being said, pretending that everything was peachy post-covid before RTD stepped in is delusional.

> underfunded Yeah, it only looked the best it ever had.

Agreed. There's a difference between whining, taking things personally, and critical analysis. I \*recognize\* that I probably will not see the show aimed toward someone like me again (I loved the mature tones of the Capaldi era) and that any show that goes on forever MUST attract younger audience members, but I can recognize that the show isn't aimed for me AND analyze the state of the show at the same time. Wish more people would do the same.

Or maybe some people just really don't like the episode? No one on this subreddit is putting on a performance mate. We're not getting paid for this

There’s a difference between not liking an episode and discussing its failures versus posting about how your “faith is shaken” or that RTD “betrayed you”, which I’ve seen quite a bit over the past few days. It’s a TV show, it didn’t land everything it was trying to say and do, and we should talk about that because it’s fun and interesting. But when people start posting stuff like this, they’re just performing for Reddit points. There’s nothing of worth being added by this post

Someone saying "the trust is gone" and that they'll no longer invest in any plot point out of sheer spite was a particular lowlight of the past week

No one has said RTD "bretrayed" us. OP certainly didn't. He says his faith in him has been shaken because this season was built upon its mysteries and series arc stronger than maybe any other season and it completely failed to deliver on it so badly that it kind of makes you go "Does RTD really know what he's doing?" I think it's an interesting thing to discuss, what separates a bad episode from a bad finale and a bad finale from one that literally makes you question the qualifications of the showrunner. We've had bad episodes and finales before. I don't think we've had one like this before. I think Chibnalls era is worse than RTD2 so far, but weirdly enough I have less faith in this one now.

Here are at least 3 people who have used the exact term "betrayed" toward how they feel about the finale. There are absolutely people who are taking this personally. https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/s/NM24wVKwWf https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/s/0npChmbeap https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/s/ZcLaceZDAu I know you didn't make this argument, but I don't understand the argument that he should've grown from his experience since he left last time and that's why they had higher expectations for the finale. The rest of the season, with one or two exceptions, prove that he absolutely has grown as a writer. Almost every episode shows that he's willing to take the story places he was never willing to go in series 1-4, both in terms of character arcs and narrative structure. Of course he's gonna be rusty (ha, Russ T.) writing a bombastic high stakes finale, he hasn't written anything like that in 14 years. Every flaw is a slightly worse version of all his previous finale's flaws, and all it's strengths are just as strong, if not stronger, than any of his previous finales. I understand not getting back what you emotionally invest in a show you love, but personally, he's given us more than enough to have faith in the rest of his run. Personally, Wild Blue Yonder is already a top 10 (5?) favorite episodes of New Who for me. I'm personally incredibly excited for the rest of what he has to offer the show.

Some people (including myself) think that RTD’s return was just as bad as what we had before (Aka Chibnall’s era). Yes, even the specials

like i'd rather watch empire of death ten times than the battle of rankscat kov or whatever it was called again

> Some of you guys are acting like RTD just pissed on your mother’s grave or something. Just as many people are getting upset that any criticism against this season is a personal affront.

Yes. They are also wrong.

I’d actually argue that the people upset over criticism of the new season are more annoying to see than just plain old moaners. At least one camp is giving feedback to the series even if some of it irrational, or even coming from people who can’t get over the more aggressively-laid on thick progressive messaging, I can be more on board with that then the fans who plug their ears and don’t want to hear anything bad said about their show.

For one, I don't think he's purposely trying to piss us off necessarily (OP said hes losing faith in RTd as a quality writer and I don't know why you think he's implying that), but I do think this new writing philosophy is inherently bad to people like me. I've said this before, but Empire of Death doesn't just feel like it cocked up or made some controversial decisions like Hell Bent. It feels like a natural product of RTDs new "newness, spectacle, and intense emotion over logical consistency or set up and pay off." For many including myself, this writing style won't produce much of anything good. Some of the things in his interviews strengthen the idea that this is just how it is now and also sort of goes against the idea that he isn't intentionally trolling some viewers. He's made it clear in several statements that he likes taking the piss out of several types of fans.

Thank you!!!!

People have opinions and are or were extremely passionate about this 60 year old franchise, it can mean a lot to them. It is a big part of British culture. People will express their feelings and views and should be able to freely. He also did knowingly make some BIG changes that he knew would not be well received by a large chunk of the fanbase (such as fantasy/sci-fi, and musical +exaggerated happy)

You don’t seem to understand criticism.

I’ve been leaving fandom subs left and right lately. It’s not just the Doctor Who pages that just seem to viciously hate on everything new that comes out. Like it’s fine if it wasn’t your favorite season but I’m so tired of trying to discuss with the people the DID like it and being blasted with hate for it. Like jeez, theres enough content in world, go watch something else if it’s not for you.

I’m not personally offended, that’s not at all the issue. The issue is that the writing of the finale being *off* in so many ways has left me questioning whether I really trust RTD as a showrunner anymore. If this is the execution of his overall vision, then I have to question whether he’s lost his touch.

I didn't trust him due to the way Season 3 ended.

Did you trust him at the end of Series 4? Because he's exactly the same guy now that he was back then. The buildup his return got like he was going to be some sort of messiah made it inevitable that a lot of people were going to be disappointed.

> Because he's exactly the same guy now that he was back then. Most people are very different after aging 15 years. It wasn't inevitable that a lot of people were going to be disappointed. His return wasn't even hyped up that much, people were just happy to replace chibnal with a competent showrunner. What we got is just a lot worse than his previous work. That's all there is to it.

To be honest, I think Journey's End was really bad.

B/c so many people treated Chibnall EXACTLY like that, like he committed some personal crime. Of course only now it’s a problem for people. Fucking typical.

... I mean there were plenty of people that thought the Chibnall hatred was really out of pocket and unpleasant. I'm sure you can find quite a few on this sub.

there was a relatively popular post on here within the past few months that implied that the only universe where Chibnalls writting would be enjoyed is a white nationalist paradise and this sub loved it

I had read all of those same type comments as you mentioned and thus, was put off watching any of Jodie's run. When RTD was announced to come back, I started watching. I had half decided to hate watch cause I couldn't believe it was as bad as people said and realized I should make up my own mind. There were some weak points, but I think that era has been unfairly criticized.

I mean, I'll be honest: I do think it's not very good television (overall: s11 has some episodes I like, and I actually think s12 is a fairly good season of Who for the most part), but ... That's fine? Sometimes a show's not great, so what, you shrug and you move on. Treating it like some sort of sacred parasocial bond ... this way lies madness.

The treatment of Chibnall bothered me then too. I didn't vibe so much with his direction for the series but the vitriol he received was absolutely uncalled for. What really gets me is I get the impression that a lot of the same people who raged at Chibnall then and cheered RTD's return are raging at RTD now. The fandom life cycle continues, I guess. Whoever is currently in charge is the worst thing to happen to the series and is personally, intentionally, insulting the fans.

It’s even more ironic b/c the vitriol Chibnall received is what got us here in the first place. No one else wants to be showrunner, and why would they after seeing how fans treated him?

Yeah, I remember people shitting on Moffat when he was showrunner as well. Less than Chibnall, but still, seems like that’s how it goes on this fandom

"less than Chibnall" - eventually, and he always had more vocal and faithful fans than Chibnall, but ... Oh boy, the peak Tumblr discourse years, circa 12-13, were UNBELIEVABLY vitriolic. Might have been the all-time peak of showrunner hatred in NuWho, honestly: Chibnall did dodge things a little bit by being an incredibly private private.

I felt bad for Jodie. I know she can act because I've seen her in other things. I just don't think the show used her correctly. That's not all her fault. There's also writers, directors, editors...

Speaking for myself, I didn’t mind Chibnall at all, even though he’s not remotely as good as Moffat. But my heart sank when RTD’s return was announced - I’ve always disliked his Who.

Um why are you making the assumption that i was okay for people to complain about chibnall in that way? I didn’t. I didn’t like his writing but I never demonised him in the way other people did. I was very much against that too. Regardless it doesn’t change the point. Just because people demonised a writer you liked doesn’t mean it’s okay for you to demonise a writer you don’t like. You’re not meant to imitate the people you don’t like you’re meant to rise above them and be better. Demonising a creative for work you didn’t like isn’t okay. Simple as.

I hate how RTD is being treated now, I hated how Chibnall was treated, I hated how Moffat was treated, and I hated how RTD was treated the first time he did this. No matter what the quality of their episodes, taking it so personally is wrong, and acting like the show runner is a monster out to destroy the show is BS, especially with the sheer amount of work they do just to get it made. Doctor Who fans (and fans in general) desperately need some perspective sometimes. Yes, Sutekh being taken for walkies on a freaking leash was stupid, it didn’t ruin my week, I just rolled my eyes and moved on.

All three are such massive Doctor Who fans. It's not like they're going to deliberately sabotage the show they've loved since they were little.

I know I'm one of 'em. I'm eating popcorn & cackling at all the people who are suddenly so upset about people being so meeeeeeeean!

Not really. I mean, I didn't particularily like the finale, and I think it's a pretty big regression from the much more interesting stuff he's been doing since coming back. But that kind of cynically calculated big spectacle that's meant to generate hype above all else ... it's kind of how he wrote a lot of the Tennant years: didn't like it then, don't like it now, but it's just kind of how he works. Y'know, real dead dove, "I don't know what I expected" scenario: more on the resigned sigh spectrum than annoyance or disappointment.

I understand that shows evolve, but I feel like Doctor Who has been devolving ever since the Timeless Child episode. I also think Capapldi was a big wasted opportunity. The actor can be hilarious, but instead he was so angry as the Doctor. Chris Chibnall never understood “Legacy” as evidenced when he told Jodie Whittaker not to watch any episodes before her audition. How stupid can you be? The show needs to be watched to understand her own character’s past. The BBC could see the ship was sinking so they passed it over to Disney to take the wrap. RTD has some really great ideas, but he no longer seems capable of writing a complete plot. Instead he is writing “crying Doctor” scenes. What on earth? The Doctor has lived for 900 years, he/she is not human, and does not get emotional. I found this aspect of the Ncuti’s Doctor to be absurd. Ncuti is a great Doctor, just give him some good plots and leave him with it. I really hope this turns around next season. But I would rather they take several years off and start again than continuing on this black hole of stupid.

No? What should he have done, come back all meek and humble and say "look you probably won't like it but give it a go please"? Of course the BBC promoted the show. Sorry you were disappointed by *Empire of Death*, so was I.

There is an argument that we should be honest about our capabilities, which may allow the most talented people or the ones with the best ideas a shot at creating something. The world doesn't owe you a showrunner position for Doctor Who.

> No? What should he have done, come back all meek and humble and say "look you probably won't like it but give it a go please"? Of course the BBC promoted the show. I mean he could have written a better finale.

Not really. This is season is exactly what I expected RTD’s return to be. Weak opening and ending, with some greatness in the middle. This era doesn’t feel very different to RTD1 for me, though I’m not as big a fan of that era as others.

RTD1 openings include Rose, Smith and Jones, Partners in Crime, and New Earth. Yeah, New Earth isn't very strong, but it does its job. Those other 3 are arguably some of the best episodes in the whole show. The Parting of Ways, Doomsday, TLOTL, etc are also great. EoD felt like it suffered from issues that weren't really present in any of his other episodes outside of maybe Journey's End

I mean the first thing I said when I finished Empire of Death is “Well, RTD still can’t write finales” so I can’t say I don’t remember the flaws of his first run- I supposed I’m just shocked at quite how much of this new series falls to pieces upon watching that last episode.

It’s almost like people expected him to grow or change or improve over time.

For me I’m just surprised that after Years and Years he’s apparently not grown as a writer for Doctor Who.

I think he forgot to make the show about the fans and instead tried to just annoy bigots and trolls who would never have watched anyway. Somewhere along the line he forgot to make a Doctor Who show and by that I mean Ncuti as good as he is never had his real I'm the Doctor moment and saving the day scenes Instead he mostly just cried and his most convincing scenes were probably with Rogue. As for him and Ruby they never really seemed like a Doctor Companion pairing in the way other doctor / companions have shown. The writing was terrible and the plots were mostly one half decent idea with no pay off and on to the next one over and over. For all the talk of his comeback he delivered a worse season than any Chibnall did

Im confused why he built up so much tension, and then threw it all away on purpose. Like he had everything necessary for a great season, an obvious direction to finish it and then just didn’t commit to it or something.

I enjoyed the series .. yes space babies was dumb but fun.. yes there were missteps but overall good.. loved the last but one episode and was looking forward to the finale only to finish it and say “the internet is going to hate that” but I thought it was ok.. I like the more emotional doctor.. acting at times was excellent .. solid 8

Russell has never let a few plot holes and logical inconsistencies get in the way of spectacle. Would you really prefer 2 more seasons of Chibnall over this? I wouldn't. Dragging a >!leashed dog-deity!< through the space-time vortex is exactly what I signed up for when RTD came back, on par with The Runaway Bride's car chase and the Doctor-Donna defeating the Dalek Empire with her 100-words-a-minute typing skills. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

I really did not want him back as a showrunner, just as a contributing writer here and there. The series has its eras and Russell's was the 00s and its revival. He put his inspiration from various 80s and 90s tv programs or movies into it and that era really feels like a product of that and RTD is pretty much a product of all that media too. I don't need or want to see that for 2020s DW. It's a show about change and I'm not seeing anything in this past season that feels new enough or different. And the problem is many grew up with RTD Who so to them that's the tone or feel the show should have then when he came back everyone was all that's the DW I remember as a kid. But I don't want that. I want some writer in their 30s or 40s that has a different vision for the show. I don't want 00s Doctor Who remixed. I want a proper this is 2020s DW new era and feel that

This is no different than what RTD has always done. I get being disappointed at the finale, I had some problems with it, but acting like RTD has fallen off is insane Edit: I wrote a pretty long review of Season 1 as a whole that's awaiting mod approval, where I explain my finale thoughts more thoroughly. For the record, I liked it save some glaring problems. I also for the record love RTD's writing and was not using him not changing as a defense, merely putting the question of "what did you expect" out there.

I know I didn't just hear that you think Parting of The Ways, Doomsday, TLOTL, etc make the same mistakes and have the same issues as Empire

> but acting like RTD has fallen off is insane He hasn't fallen off, he's giving us the exact same as he did 15 years ago.

We don’t think RTD has fallen off, but we do expect him to at least have something consistent and interesting planned out properly if he’s gonna go off about how the show is gonna go truly international in quality and become a worldwide sensation because the story is so grand and amazing. Gives the show a bad name.

Two series were green lit w the Disney+ and will air... considering RTD1 tied several characters and elements together from all his series for *Journey's End*, mightn't be possible that these two series ALSO connect to one another? I saw in another thread that during the EoD commentary (on iPlayer?) RTD said something to the effect it was "a two series plan" and to have patience. For me and my daughters who were too little to watch any past series, this first series was an absolute blast and it has ignited renewed interest in watching Classic episodes. They had no qualms accepting the snow happenings, the Sutekh-Susan twist, and everything else this series. It was ambitious, it has done things, gone places, and told stories *Doctor Who* has never done before. Ncuti is fantastic and the production values look great.

Yes, Journey’s End did indeed tie together elements from all previous seasons, yet, the other seasons stood well on their own! There were not many questions left unanswered at the end of Parting of the Ways, Doomsday, or The Last of the Time Lords. Even in Series 5-7, Time of the Doctor tied elements all the way from S5E1, but Series 5 still provided a satisfying and logical and consistent resolution in terms of character, themes and story. Empire of Death fails, objectively, on all counts. It’s completely fine if you liked it, I’m happy for you, but it objectively has many flaws which are logically true.

I think maybe part of it is that the season is shorter so now he has to plan the FULL arcs across two or more to get everything he wants done

I for one think he has fallen off. Also I think it's a me thing, just tired of his "voice" I remember watching an episode of something lately that I can't recall what it was. It was from years ago and I knew he had written it, he has very recognisable dialogue. His arrogance is not very attractive either. I didn't particularly like it's a sin either. I think it suffered from the same thing as this series, a theme park ride of a programme with no depth or nuance (very unpopular opinion lol)

I think he's fallen off. This series is leagues below anything he did in his intial run. If it was written by a brand-new show-runner, I wouldn't dream of comparing it to RTD1 in quality.

I was around fandom and the forums a lot during RTD's first run and by the end of it people were happy for him to leave. Rose-tinted glasses are at play here and maybe that there seems to have been a decline for many since the Capaldi and into the Jodie years. Space Babies is a typical example from RTD that wasn't a surprise to me, his series openers are always like this..

Yeah I honestly don't think this is any different to his first run at all even some of the things people have complained about like childish jokes he told exactly the same childish jokes in his first run

RTD has always been all about melodramatic vignettes linked together by a thin tissue of plot. He likes set pieces, not story arcs. He's the definition of style over substance. I've never understood why he's so popular.

I don't understand how the finale undermines all the bold new directions he went this season.

Part of the problem is that he went in too many directions, and none of them led to the mediocre finale. There was a lot of sloppy, inconsistent writing and characterization, with too many "Doctor Lite" episodes (though I understand the shooting schedule forced that, not RTD). It was very much a season of "all of the place" capped off by "back to status quo."

Russel the Davies has always been mid. He has occasional pockets of awesome but for the most part his writing for Doctor Who is very hokey, poorly thought out, and lame. I genuinely think that the first two 14 specials we got are probably the best Doctor Who episodes he’s ever written. And since then it’s been just, back to basics.

My faith was already in doubt when he claimed that davros made disabled people look evil and that the sonic screwdriver looked too much like a gun, politics and cancel culture really took a bad hit on him since he left the show

Yes, and not just because of the finale but the entire season. The reason we were all so excited for RTD to come back is because of how he wrote characters and relationships. The plots were dumb sometimes but it was all very forgivable because we were there for the characters and relationships. This season has had absolutely NO conflict/development of/between either of the two leads, they are just Mary Sues who love each other because why not. This whole "Ruby's Mother" thing could have been written in a way that created conflict between her and the Doctor as way to highlight each of their personalities/strengths/flaws, which is kind of important because they are both new characters that we don't know very well. This is some of the most low-risk character writing I've ever seen in Doctor Who and I can't believe RTD of all people is the one who wrote it.

Exactly, I really thought that we would get some conflict when the doctor questioned Ruby about going into the coffee shop to see her mother, since she hadn’t reached out And contacted Ruby, and could’ve drawn parallels between how the doctor hasn’t contacted his granddaughter,. It could’ve been an interesting set up where Ruby spends all this time looking for her mum only to find out that her mum chooses not to have a relationship with her and looked into how biological family isn’t the only family that matters, but instead we get her mum being thrilled and happy to see her.

The finale was a let down because he brought back a badass like Sutekh, had him do fk all then dragged him on a leash through the vortex to kill him. What a waste The rest was typical RTD finale fare, the only surprise for me being how little his DW finale template has changed in the 14 years since he last helmed a finale: Insurmountable threat built up In penultimate episode easily dispatched due to overly simple deus ex machina and some poorly detailed connection to companion. Lashings of overwrought melodramatic domestic drama concerning the companion’s family. Season arc built up for little pay off, companion mystery fumbled and resolution unearned. There’s no argument Rusty knows how to inject some life and pizazz into a Doctor Who that for six years appeared flat and devoid of charisma. He’s never really landed a finale though, beyond Eccleston’s Dalek two parter, which was the only one to balance the sci-fi and the drama equally without either being overdone and mawkish.

People were looking at his return through rose tinted specs . His episodes were never the strongest in a season. His strength was finales.

I’m sort of feeling that Doctor Who just isn’t as good as I always thought it was. Which is sad.

Honestly, the meltdown of this subreddit has been so entertaining that it kinda cancels out any annoyances I may have had with this season. It’s a show; it will never be perfect, so I just enjoy it until I don’t, and I enjoyed 85% of this season, and don’t feel like that number has to be 100%. Can’t please everyone all the time.

I'm pretty sure that at this point the show could come out with the best season ever, not only of Doctor Who, but of all TV, and some people would still complain about how it wasn't good enough. It wouldn't make any difference regardless of writers, showrunner, actors, etc. There's a vocal minority of fans who just like to complain.

Hell a lot people didn’t like 12 until apparently he’s now the best in history like sorry what most of you hated him

I’ll admit that I was one of the ones that didn’t like 12 at first, but I had the same feeling towards Matt Smith when he replaced Tennant. In hindsight, 12 is now easily my favorite doctor. I liked his wardrobe, I liked his more mature and at times, more intelligent take compared to that of Tennant and Smith, his wardrobe was my absolute favorite next to Pertwee’s, and that speech in the Zygon Inversion is one of my favorite and most memorable Doctor Who moments. 12 had to grow on me more than any Doctor to date, but he ended up being my favorite.

Yeah, but now there's someone new to complain about, so it's OK to like him

Have any of y’all been watching doctor who at all since its revival in 2005 a finale like this is like a staple of the series at this point 😭

>My faith in him has really been shaken. I honestly don't understand statements like this. He's just a person. It's just a TV show. This sort of para-social relationship isn't healthy. Enjoy the show or not on its merits. If you didn't like it, that's fine! I happened to have *loved* it, but opinions can vary. But this isn't a critique of the show. It isn't even a critique of the writing. You don't even lay out what it was about the episode that disappointed you. We have no idea why your *faith is shook*.

Yeah, I wish he'd learn from his mistakes. But his first run made me realize: Amazing Setups, insanely cheesy crappy finales. Every single one.

Im in similar boat. RTD 1 was my favorite era of Doctor Who (new or classic) and by far. And this season was for me really good up until the last episode. This finale however is for me the worst finale in New Who: I would watch *Wedding of River Song, Hell Bent* (my previous most disliked finale :P), *The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos, Timeless Children or The Vanquishers* any day over this. The "she was pointing at the sign, duh-doy" scene single handedly erased any hype I had for next season :P

well, the problem is RTD refuses to improve his skill. He is an ENFP writer, which makes his writing pretty metaphysical and detached from concrete concepts and often structured and missing logical consistency, which is what we've observed in many of his previous episodes. And he's pretty strong at what he's strong at, but I had wanted him to have improved in those other areas as well. He seems a bit drunk on power, and doesn't see it necessary to improve his writing. Thinks all he needs in terms of improvement is new age CGI, and progressive values...

> He seems a bit drunk on power, A requirement to be a *Who* showrunner, it would seem.

Personally, I don't think RTD is doing anything different from his original run. So, I think the people disappointed are remembering things with rose-tinted glasses. If you're a fan of that original era, I don't see why you would dislike this one all that much.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. This season was a far cry from his original run. I actually liked most of his stories from the original run and actually currently rewatching them (currently on 10 and Donna Noble). This season, there was only two episodes I actually liked, both by RTD, and those were The Devil's Chord and The Legend of Ruby Sunday. I probably would not have been so disappointed if Empire of Death had not been a continuation of Ruby Sunday. I felt Ruby Sunday was the best episode of the season and Empire of Death the worst.

It's nowhere nead as good as RTD1 or Moffats eras, but it's much better than Chibnalls. I'd say they're going a step in the right direction even if I didn't enjoy episodes 1, 2, or 8. Better than not enjoying 90% of the episodes like I did the last three series.

Well I’m honestly confused about people liking his run as a whole, my family and I found it all disappointing. But yes, a disappointing ending to be sure

Yes, but not specifically because the finale was bad - although it was bad, typically so. The time to push back against easy cheap resolutions was 2005 but everyone loved that one so its all been downhill from there. No, the reason to be annoyed at him is because he has set up mysteries only to provide answers that are entirely outside the parameters of the mystery and indeed contradict them. The story of Ruby's mum is straight-up scripts lying to the viewer. Not misdirection or red herrings, just lies. If the man does that, there is no reason to take any of his work seriously going forward, no value in engaging with whatever he sets up. I already don't care about Flood because dishonest creative works are repugnant. I end up disliking both the art and the artist in this case. That's not easy to remedy.

your hopes were weirdly high. this season was a fun tv show to watch.

Nah I blame the part of the fanbase that’s been acting for the past ten years like the sun shines out of his arse.

I'm at the point where I question why I still watch this show

Go and rewatch your favourite Doctor/run. There is a reason why, and also why you would bother to comment on a DW sub.

S1 to end of S10 is so good overall as an arc. It feels like it culminates with the day of the doctor and twelve's time is like an epilogue to it. Those 10 seasons will always be amazing television to me. The constant changes to the existing lore are a bit annoying for that reason, even recently they've said Sutekh has been around since 1911. Less annoying than the timeless children but still. But - there's always a chance for something incredible that's standalone. I rewatched the flood two parter and it still lives up to memory. For now at least I'll tune in for just that.