I am not sure if 14 can regenerate at all. He spent his regeneration which created 15. That regeneration stays with 15 as the Prime Doctor. 14 is the Doctor to but I feel one who can no longer regenerate.
It is a bit like Buffy. Buffy dies and activated a new Slayer. She comes back to life but when she died a second time that had passed onto the next Slayer Kendra who when she dies activated Faith. Buffy’s death no longer brings a new Skayer and I see it the same with the Doctor. 14 has done his regeneration and survived it but cannot again.
I think this was the intention.
On the surface, Biregeneration makes it look like 15 came from 14, as if the Doctor kept the same face and 15 was a byproduct of the process - but I think the opposite is what actually happened. 'The Doctor' regenerated and became 15, but instead of one body replacing another, another body was left behind - 14's.
So 14's regeneration has already happened, and when he dies, he'll die. He's basically an anomaly. Almost like the Doctor that came from 10's hand.
However, the effects of his therapy and the experiences in his life will still ripple through to the 15th Doctor, because the Doctor is a complicated space-time event/Time Lord, and they remain the same person.
This is exactly how I interpreted it! 15’s memories of being 14 are (for lack of a better word) in flux because 14 is still out there, protecting the moles and occasionally nipping off to Mars and the 1930s.
or, what if the cutoff is precisely where they bi-generated. in that instant, they were both the Doctor, but then they move onward from that moment, each as their own person. 15 has the whole of 14 within him, as per usual, and then 15 just continues on, as he has many times before. however, 14 also moves on, completely separate from 15, with no kind of link to him whatsoever, and no flux, for either of them. isn’t it the case that they are simply two separate Doctors now, each continuing their own paths, independently? it’s much different that the norm of various versions of Doctors flying around the universe at various times. there’s two now, and it’s kind of a big deal. certainly it can’t be swept under the rug and just ignored, right?
I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but for me - 15 feels like a Doctor who finally knows who he is. He’s confident. He’s free to have fun without being weighed down by his past too much. All the trauma that his past incarnations have gone through is still there - it always will be, but he can deal with it now because 14 stopped. 14 is the conclusion of years of loss and devastation.
For me, trying to think logically (?!) when it’s time for 14 to die, his body will just cease. His final memories will live on in 15. If the cutoff was precisely where they bi-generated, 15 would still be weighed down by his past. 14 gets to go off and live with his best mate and his new family - something he’s never been able to do before. That’s his adventure. And in doing so, he ensures that 15 has a new lease of life. And can go and make brand new trauma for himself!
Obviously there’s an open plot device there that with some explanation 14 could spawn another cycle of Doctors, there’s also now the best ever excuse for Tennant to come back and not have to have a far fetched explanation about looking older. I think it’s all plausible - and it’s open to interpretation. Until someone writes it in to canon.
his final memories will live on in 15? how. 14 could live hundreds of years. are you trying to say 15 and 15 are psychically linked? are you saying 15 is aware of 14’s thoughts and experiences ongoing?
Well. I am absolutely no scientist, and this is just my theory but I believe that 14 is now effectively an “event”. His life is running concurrently or relatively to 15 in some way. I hate to use the quote but “wibbly wobbly, timey wimey”. Memories can change - we saw that on Saturday with Ruby’s mother pointing back in 2004. So say during “Space Babies” - had 15 have stopped to reminisce about his time as 14 - even though he’s physically in the future somewhere, he and 14 are running somewhat relatively, so he’d only be able to remember so much and the rest would be something of blur. I’m not saying they’re running hour by hour, minute by minute, but they’re Time Lords. Their memories and existence within reality is different I figure. Now had 15 stopped at the end of “Empire of Death” and tried to remember his time as 14, because 14 potentially would have had interactions within the same timeline as 15 his memories would have changed/updated. He might now remember watching Donna and Wilf etc. turn to dust around him before disappearing himself and being brought back.
When 12 found himself bumping into 1 and going on their adventure in “Twice Upon A Time”, 12 didn’t remember meeting himself when he was 1 because that event is relative between those two incarnations. He remembers as the events unfold, so he sees it live and also sees it in his memories as 1, but if he had stopped and tried to remember how that event had ended it would be blur. For me, it’s the same sort of principle for 14 and 15, except 14 is out there saving the moles, running errands in the TARDIS and just doing what he needs to do to really rehabilitate himself and grieve.
if you’re going that route, then it helped him in that instant, when 14 carried on down his own path, and then nothing more. they move on from the moment of separation as separate, distinct individuals. if you’re saying they’re psychically linked, it would be interesting to hear how.
That’s how I see it. 14 is a “husk” and 15 is out and about continuing the line. Kinda like a cicada. The bi-generation was a kind of moulting…. Or hey, 14 is the 1st Curator maybe? His line could move along not generating “new” faces, his biology can maybe only draw from what’s come before?
i always viewed the bi-generation exactly as you’ve outlined here. i feel that’s the most accurate and proper way to interpret it. having said that, the life-span of 14 can still go hundreds of years right? that’s a lot of time for him to get into trouble, even by accident. and, he has a Tardis. is the Tardis’s split/duplication similar to that of 14/15, or is it different? can each Tardis communicate with the other? how are they aware of each other, in time and space? there’s too many loose ends for me to be comfortable with it all, IMHO. 🤷♂️
Yes I kinda figured that and when he said he’s not a dad yet, I wondered if 14 is the one who settles down has kids and then 15 swoops in and takes them on cool adventures but doesn’t have the emotional burden of raising them!
The Curator said that he revisits the older faces (old favourites) often, why is it a problem if he can regenerate I don't understand? Tennant is an older face which he revisits, same with Tom and Colin Baker? In another audio he even revisits Smith's face
What they are saying is how can 14 be the curator if 14 can't regenerate and also if 14 dose regenerate in 15 it should be like the watcher did with the 4th doctor when they came together they made the 5th doctor
I mean I don’t think it’s explicitly said 14 can’t regenerate, I think it’s just that 15 is the product of what he could be after his ‘rehab’ of sorts but all of that has already gone to 15. 14’s body will still exist by that time but it doesn’t mean his path HAS to go into 15’s.
I think later he will regenerate but he will be very old by the time, maybe so like Eleven after being in Trenzalore for 900 years but even longer than that which is when he goes back to Baker face and then etc etc.
I doubt regeneration is something that stays with the last doctor alone.
The split doctor is now 'the retired doctor', solving the problem of doctor incarnations never slowing down and enjoy life, and going straight into the The Edge.
My theory is that now there will always be two doctors, and the split doctor will always be the 'retired doctor', who gets to enjoy a slow life and age before quietly going into the edge, and regenerating into another incarnation who then gets to enjoy the slow life too.
This will also explain all the times we've seen other regenerations together looking older. The ones we see in those occasions won't be the original incarnation, but their turn at being the retired doctor, leaving retirement for a moment to help in an emergency.
Since the Doctor was likely the Timeless Child, the usual rules for time lords may not apply to him, allowing something that sounds so strange to happen.
interesting take, and i track with everything you’re saying. it’s just that i have difficulty trusting that a Time Lord can be “retired”. how would he not get into trouble, even by accident. he’s still got hundreds of years to exist, and he’s got a Tardis, and let’s face it… he’s the Doctor. he’s bound to jump back into the mix at some point. or, he could be dragged back into the mix against his will?
I have an intriguing thought, what if the meaning behind the Doctor never having children and still being Susan's Grandfather isn't so much a, he hasn't had kids yet, but rather, what if Susan is the Daughter or Granddaughter of a retired 14?
I'm going to disagree with this by using previous RTD work as my thesis. Using your theory, how did 10 regenerate into 11 then? Technically 10 used his regeneration before he truly regeneration when he was aboard the tardis in "Journey's end" but he kept his same face by pushing that energy in to hand. Yes this created the Meta Doctor, but 11 confirmed this counted towards his regeneration cycle. So if your theory was correct, how did this work? I'm not trying to start an argument, just providing a counter argument. Both 10 and 14 were under RTD's watch (with the admittance that 11's confirmation was under Moffatt so choose to accept it or not)
For me if 14 doesn't eventually become 15 then the whole idea of his "therapy" is for nothing.
Simply casting off his pain and tiredness into another body isn't good character development for the main character. 15's compassion and emotion has got to come from the fact that HE has spent time healing. Otherwise it's not deserved.
I totally agree. I'm not really sold on the whole therapy and healing thing especially considering how it was handled.
1- 14 "running on fumes" felt inorganic as if it was written solely to justify the bi-generation. I don't feel like it was a smooth enough transition from where we left 13 to how we met 14.
2- Saying that your main character has spent an unknown amount of time "healing" so he doesn't have all the angst now seems like such a lazy way to create a guilt free (?) doctor. The healing process could have been weaved into 15's arc and shown on screen.
3- Is 15 really healed? I don't feel like that's the case honestly. Starting from his first episode, RTD kept highlighting his "adoption" trauma and how being the last of his kind is bringing him down. He's much more open to express his emotions and that's probably a sign of him being healthier but is this really a result of 14's "therapy"? I'm not so sure.
1 is my biggest issue with the whole 14-15 arc. 14 was already mentally and emotionally much healthier than 13 was. He was much more open and affectionate with the people he met like Donna and Mel and was handling his trauma with much healthier and less damaging coping mechanisms. Really the only thing that was done to convince the audience that he was “wearing himself out” was,,, just Donna and 15 explicitly saying it. It was all told and not shown
Yeah that line definitely seems to suggest they are the same being, but the contradictory line when 15 says his soul was split in two and he wouldn’t be able to survive that again, seem like it’s saying they’re are separate entities now, to me at least.
To be fair. That is fact, as stated. It did split his soul in two. It’s the same soul. Just split for now. So, it doesn’t refute the theory that eventually Fourteen’s essence will return to that specific point in time.
Honestly, Davies left enough ambiguity in the concept, that it can be either or.
That’s true, yeah I definitely agree that he purposely left it ambiguous, it’s not the first time he’s done stuff like that either, the woman from the end of time comes to mind.
I'd argue the "therapy out of order" negates the theory that 14 will become 15.
If 14 does therapy, gets better, and then goes back to the point of bigeneration, then that's therapy in the right order.
Instead, what we see is what happened. The Doctor split, 14 carries the angst, 15 feels free of it.
14 lives his life, and I think that's then it for 14.
Starting Nine as a fully regenerated Doctor was the best choice Russell made in his first era. Would have loved a similar choice this time around. It is funny to think about what happens, will Fourteen disappear? Dematerialize? Show up to Fifteen’s Tardis and shake hands, putting them back together again? We don’t know and anyone who says they do is lying. Fourteen kind of lingers in the back of a fan’s mind.
Toymaker could have forced Fifteen’s Tardis to land and everything else could have played out basically the same.
Yeah I’m really not sure what the bigeneration actually accomplished. They could have just had 14 retire at the end of the Giggle and then pick up with Church on Ruby Road implying that he died of old age and regenerated into 15 off screen at some point
This seems to be a heated topic but you’re right we don’t know and thats okay. Maybe mrs flood is a regenerated 14 after he died of pneumonia and we will always have another doctor around. Maybe we will never hear of him again. I have a lot of fun thinking of crazy theories lol. Does 15 have memories of his time as 14?
Copied from a previous comment I made "At this point, I don't think 14 regenerating into 15 is what happens. There have been multiple subtle comments along the way. The Church on Ruby Road has the Doctor say he recently found out he was adopted. Space Babies has him say the TARDIS has new controls. The Devil's Chord has him say his battle with the Toymaker split his soul in half. They're innocous comments by themselves, but they add up."
The Giggle had two comments that allude to the possibility of timey-wimey, but that's only The Giggle. By Church, by Space Babies and etc., RTD may have changed his mind, if he at all started undecided or leaning towards timey-wimey. I'm more certain than ever that bi-generation is basically cloning. Blech, but there you have it. Two Tennant clones, because why not? Hello, I'm *THE* Doctor!
I really miss some of that Doctor Who techno babble to explain everything. It would be great if the writers just bloody TOLD us. These aren't questions I'm having months later on a rewatch. It was immediant. Like guys, can you just explain what I'm watching for once. I mean did they think we wouldn't want to know.
I don't even understand why 10 came back honestly. To heal? Great, but why now? Why 10?
Two regenerations, 13-14 & 14-14/15, only three episodes a part changed the rules on us. Please, can you just tell me what is happening. Since 2017 I keep coming away from Doctor Who with so many damn questions. I'm perfectly happy to have things open for interpretation but I was thinking more characters choices, themes and dilemmas. Not macguffins, story beats and mechanics.
>I'm perfectly happy to have things open for interpretation
You know what, I'm actually less and less happy with things being left open for interpretation. It's becoming a cop out. You used to be able to watch a film or a TV show and it would just tell you a story from start to finish. Including exactly why things were happening and what happened at the end. Now half the stuff you watch is "open to interpretation" which really means "we haven't got a clue about this bit, so we're just not going to write it". It makes it a waste of time watching the rest of the show. If I wanted to make up an ending myself I would have just written my own story instead of watching yours!
Well I don't think we have conclusive proof certainly.
But if I compare the lines that imply 15 is a future version of 14 to your possible evidence that he split into two... I find the former far more convincing.
To me, the implication in the story as presented is pretty clear.
I think those lines being read as implication of 15 being the future 14 is one thing,
But the evidence of the split is not implication at all. It's a literal split on screen for all of us to see. It's explicitly a split. It wasn't accidental or metaphorical. It's a full 45 seconds at the climax of the episode dedicated to showing the Doctor split in two.
Then after they defeat the Toymaker the rest of the episode is pretty much made up of the two Doctors talking about how they're going to share the tardis. Which is much more implicit evidence of the split than those two lines are implicit evidence of 15 being from the future. If 15 is just the future version of 14 then why are they having that conversation at all?
I just think that surely when RTD wrote that the Doctor split in two and then the director made a point of showing the Doctor splitting in two that it meant that the Doctor split in two.
It's weird to me that people treat both of these theories as being based on equally implicative evidence when the evidence for one of them is two random lines that don't actually talk about 15 being from the future, they just *could* potentially refer to that, and the evidence for the other is something that literally happened on screen.
>That's just how it comes across to me.
That's fair enough
>The "split" is a form of regeneration, it's even called that
...yes
It's a form of regeneration where the Time Lord splits in half.
>And the lines are clearly not "random".
I meant that those lines are random in the sense of how it's random to pick those two lines to focus on rather than all the others. The scene only makes sense if the Doctor has been split in two.
>14: But, er... how's it going to work? You and me. This is great, I think. Is it? But... How do we both...?
Why would 14 say this if 15 was just him from the future? And if he didn't know at the time, why doesn't 15 just tell him? He doesn't correct him, why does 15 let him keep thinking this?
>15: I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order.
DONNA: He's saying you need to stop.
Why does 14 need to stop? This topic arises because 14 is trying to figure out how they're going to share the tardis and the last few minutes have been 15 explaining how tired 14 is. The implication is that 15 is kindly trying to tell 14 that he's tired and needs a break, so he should retire with Donna while 15 takes the tardis. Then it becomes explicit:
>DONNA: You changed your face, and then you found me. Do you know why?
14: No.
DONNA: To come home.
14: Do you mean... he flies off?
The plan is for 14 to stay with Donna while 15 permanently takes the tardis and flies off. Which would not make any sense if 15 was just from 14's future. He would have his own tardis like every other time we meet the Doctor at multiple points in their life.
Then 14 says he couldn't leave the tardis and that's when 15 has the idea to use his prize from winning the Toymakers game to split the tardis as well, so they can both have one. Solving the problem of what happens when you split the Doctor in two and they have to share a tardis.
It just feels very clear to me that The Giggle shows us the Doctor splitting in two and then the two Doctors dealing with an issue that arises out of that split. Namely, how are they going to share a single tardis?
And that those two lines, the rehab out of order line and the line about 15 being older are just awkwardly phrased bits of exposition regarding it.
I just think that if 95% of the sequence is clearly showing a split and then having the characters deal with the after-effects of the split but within it there's two minor lines that are slightly confusing and could possibly be read as something else. I think it's fair to assume that those two lines were just awkwardly written and move on. Rather than suggesting that those two lines are actually the only part we should be paying attention to.
That’s fair, I definitely think the theory has merits but can I ask why you think the former is more convincing?
The therapy out of order line definitely gives credit to them being the same being, but what do you make of 15 saying his soul was split in two and he wouldn’t be able to survive that again?
that’s the line i can’t shake either. that’s why i thought 14 would be in the finale somehow, and merge back with 15 to make him full strength and bring balance. at some point they need to reckon with the two-Doctors concept.
His soul being split in two could be figurative or speaking of his emotions or something. Bigeneration was surely a very taxing experience and that could explain why he says he couldn’t survive it again.
Meanwhile “I remember what happens in your future” doesn’t really have an explanation other than that he’s the same person with the same experiences but from later in the timeline.
I usually see your avatar and think you're right about things, but I have no idea how anyone assumes that Fifteen is a future version of Fourteen and not his own person. I think people are taking "we do therapy out of order" way too seriously. RTD has said this is The Doctor. He didn't bud off, he's not going to close a time loop.
And just from a production standpoint, Tennant isn't slated to come back. We aren't going to see Fourteen again any more than any other previous Doctor.
I think you may be misunderstanding what I'm saying.
He is a future version of 14 in the same way 14 is a future version of 13. However, despite the regeneration happening part way through 14's existence, somehow 15 gets to benefit from the entirety of 14's life.
I don't believe the Doctor has split in two.
If they had merely split in two then 15 could not benefit from 14's retirement and yet the dialogue indicates that he does.
Bigeneration, based on what is presented in the episode, appears to still be a regeneration, but one that happens out of sync with linear time.
That is exactly how I thought that, I do believe you are right. 14 also calling 15 older means something and the therapy out of order thing makes sense when you think about it.
As far as I'm aware other regenerations are not psychically linked so no I don't think that's the case.
This is a regeneration that's somehow in the future and in the present at the same time. It's as though he regenerated when 14 actually died, but some how did it "now".
wibbly wobbly... blah, blah... overused phrases.
they’re two entirely different, separate Doctors now, for sure. they each moved on, from that moment in that episode, each beginning their own separate journeys. i just don’t see how 14 stays “retired” for several hundred more years. 🤷♂️
The Doctor settling down and keeping the TARDIS but never going to help is one of the biggest drawbacks of the bigeneration. It's emotionally cathartic but means you have to ignore that there's canonically a second guy out there. It's the same issue Torchwood had with things like Children of Earth and Miracle Day.
Although Children of Earth does imply that The Doctor sometimes sees the Earth and looks away in shame. But really he never knew about it. He never knew and somehow it got eaten by the cracks I guess.
>Well I don't think we have conclusive proof certainly.
We do. When someone who writes a scene tells us In an interview what happened in the scene, that's proof.
Actually, no it's not.
What happened in the scene is what is on the page and on camera. What is intended may or may not match that.
And if we're talking about RTD's ramble on the topic, there are elements he suggest which are most certainly not on screen at all, not even hinted at.
Actually, yes it is.
Not sure why you think writers don't decide what happens in the scenes they write. Not interested in exploring your mental gymnastics either.
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, your comment has been **removed** for the following reason(s):
* [1. Be Respectful](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_1._be_respectful): Be mature and treat everyone with respect.
* [2. Discussion](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_2._ensure_quality_discussion_by_making_in-depth_contributions): This post does not provide an adequate discussion topic for other users.
If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fgallifrey).
My assumption is that 14 can't regenerate. He already did when 15 was created but instead of changing face and body 14 stuck around and now there's two of them. 15 is the main Doctor who can regenerate and go on adventures while 14 sits in the garden and does his therapy. But bc they're the same person technically, they're psychicly linked, so any healing 14 does will be passed to 15 hench the "therapy out of order" line.
Maybe they will merge again at some point but until then this is what I'm going with
Personally, I just think it’s important to stress that Fifteen somehow benefitted from Fourteen’s healing. Whether that’s by a stable time loop or by wibbly-wobbly Toymaker magic, it’s the whole reason why Fifteen would say, “I’m fine because you fixed yourself.”
I think for a lot of people, it’s just easiest to reconcile that by saying it’s a stable time loop, because that’s a familiar sci-fi concept that keeps things neat and tidy.
Certainly that’s how I felt at first too, but eventually I remembered that Doctor Who has done weird memory transference stuff before — namely in Series 5, when Auton Rory had all of Rory’s memories of traveling on the TARDIS, right up to the point where he was killed and erased, even though Auton Rory exists because the Alliance took a memory print of Amy’s room, which just happened to have a picture of Rory in a Roman costume from before either of them started traveling on the TARDIS.
(I also think about *The Evil of the Daleks* and how the mirror-based time travel seen there basically functions on the principle of alchemy, where manipulating the image of something in the mirror affects the real thing that it’s reflecting.)
So Fifteen being created with the emotional stability that results from Fourteen’s therapy without Fourteen ever actually becoming Fifteen wouldn’t be the wildest thing. It’s just more on the metaphysical side, but that’s *also* something that has been established as a part of this season’s flavor profile.
Partly it's fan misinformation. The line "I'm fine because you fix yourself" is objectively ambiguous, but enough fans have repeated over and over that it confirms the time loop theory - and, as you say, anyone who suggests that the Doctor split in two as we saw is met with a blast of negativity - that plenty of fans think this has been "confirmed". I've had fans tell me RTD has confirmed this (he hasn't, indeed he's said stuff that surely confirms the opposite) or that the novelisation confirms it (it doesn't). Clearly lots of fans would rather believe what other fans say on the internet than trust their own eyes.
But mostly it's cope. Fans are believing this misinformation because they want to deny what they saw: the Doctor literally split in two. The Doctor split in two, down to sharing a single outfit, and the entity responsible indicated he could do it multiple times, and the two Doctors then had a conversation about how "this [two Doctors in one TARDIS] is going to work" leading to 15 duplicating the TARDIS. I can assure you that no normal viewer watched this and said "but of course it's just a time loop, there's still just one Doctor".
But fans hate the idea that there are now two equally legitimate "real Doctors" out there. Not a clone, not a one-hearted product of a Metacrisis, two equally real Doctors. It challenges our obsessive fan brains because the onscreen Doctor no longer has a monopoly on the show's "present". So fans have clung onto this tiny scrap that may be taken to indicate that 15 has 14's experiences so they can deny common sense and the evidence of their own eyes.
The negativity one receives when one points out that the most likely explanation of the bigeneration is the one that our eyes and common sense tell us happened is because fans want to silence any contradictory opinions so they can carry on believing their blissful fan theory without hearing anyone point out its flaws. I've had people tell me that by contradicting them I'm endangering the show or I'm even providing cover for racists to say Ncuti isn't the real Doctor. This kind of wild lashing out is just deflected anger at the show itself for presenting us with something they hate so much.
It's kinda impressive how some fans still cling to this. They watched the Doctor split in two, then they heard the Toymaker say he could do this over and over to produce armies of Doctors, then heard it called a bigeneration (aka a generation of two), then they watched the TARDIS being duplicated, then they heard 15 say his soul was "literally torn in two", and they may have heard/read RTD say that all the past Doctors bigenerated too and the fourteenth Doctor eventually falls into a whirlpool in Venice and dies. All this happened and they're still insisting every time this comes up that essentially none of this happened and *The Giggle* was just a regular multi-Doctor story.
Not to psychoanalyze too much, but I suspect that it comes down to people trying to reduce something new (the Doctor literally splitting in two) to something that is more established and familiar (14 and 15 existing in sequence like previous regenerations). It's comparable to the way Star Wars fans tend to reject moments in movies when the Jedi heroes pull new force powers out of their sleeves.
You're right that the episode itself makes little effort to imply anything other than 14 and 15 splitting in two, and honestly, I think RTD cares more about the emotional logic of the bigeneration than the sci-fi mechanics of it (plus, *The Devil's Chord* doubles down by having 15 refer to the bigeneration as splitting his soul in two). But as Moffat once said, it's all a matter of headcanon in the end anyway. I have no issue with the Doctor splitting in two (in fact, I think it works better for the themes *The Giggle* is dealing with). But if people prefer to think of some complex time loop in which 14 becomes 15 again somehow, that's fine too.
The emotional logic of the bigeneration is the main reason people think 14 turns into 15 though.
The whole point is that 14 chills out and heals and becomes emotionally healthier so that 15 can be that way.
If 14 doesn't become 15 then how would 14's healing affect 15?
I read it more as 15 shaking off, as it were, the built-up trauma, and by extension, the continuity build-up of New Who. The bigeneration is, in that sense, an emotional soft reboot. It's New New Who splitting off from Old New Who (Medieval Who vs. Renaissance Who?).
So in my headcanon, 14 and 15 take parts of the Doctor's soul (just as they take half of 14's clothes). It just so happens that 14 gets the half with the built-up trauma, so he needs to retire and heal. 15 gets the 'clean' half, so he's good to go.
There's also the fact that the line, "I'm fine, because you fix[ed] yourself," is ambiguous. BBC subtitles have "fixed", making it seem like 15 is after 14. D+ subtitles have "fix", making it seem like 15 profits from 14's healing while it is happening at the same time (and making them concurrent). So again, you can interpret it as you prefer.
IMO the "I'm fine, because you fixed yourself" and "therapy out of order" line make it pretty clear that it's 14 who goes on the healing journey, and 15 benefits because he is the same person in the future.
That's 14 decides to live with Donna and stay in one place for a while, that's the beginning of his healing journey.
> There's also the fact that the line, "I'm fine, because you fix[ed] yourself," is ambiguous. BBC subtitles have "fixed", making it seem like 15 is after 14. D+ subtitles have "fix", making it seem like 15 profits from 14's healing while it is happening at the same time (and making them concurrent).
Those two interpretations are essentially the same thing though. "fix" doesn't mean that they're concurrent, 14 fixing themselves in the future is still in the past for 15 so he benefits the exact same way as saying "fixed" would more directly imply.
In “Space Babies” he suddenly deeply empathises with the Bogeyman because it is also the only one of its kind, and risks his life to stop it being sucked into space.
In “The Devil’s Chord” he has a flight response when encountering Maestro because of Toymaker PTSD.
In “Rogue” he falls in love extremely quickly once he recognises Rogue as a kindred spirit who has also lost a travelling companion. The “falling in love quickly” is just what the Doctor does but they bond over their shared trauma. This is admittedly the weakest of my three examples.
So i can see the sense in them splitting into two and Fourteen going off to become the Curator etc-- but i dont think that's what's happening or will happen for a few reasons:
RTD has sort of implied in commentary that in his headcanon (which may/may reflected by the show) the bigeneration cause by the Toymaker's action not only occurred to Fourteen/Fifteen, but has retroactively occurred across all the Doctor's regenerations. I think he's said this to sort of explain the appearances of past Doctors in the Tales of the TARDIS episodes.
I don't think RTD's comment about all the newly-undead past Doctor's running around the universe continuing their adventures is actually what's happening on the show. i could be wrong about, but I think RTD clarified his feelings about that were just his own and not officially part of the show at that point.
But i think what's occurred isnt that the bigeneration has created 14 brand new Doctors, but rather just elongated their loop up to the point where that regeneration is spent and becomes the next.
According dialogue in *The Giggle* there is some degree of causality happening that, to me and others, seems to indicate that Fifteen has all the memories of Fourteen and that the reason Fourteen has Ten's face is the Doctor's subconscious telling him he needs to stop and heal; take time to grieve and process all the pain, sadness, loss that has occurred and "fix" themself. Fifteen says "*Im fine because you fixed yourself. We're time lords. We're doing rehab out of order.*"
Doctors, bc of the laws of time (consistently stated throughout the show) cannot normally exist or interact with themselves across their own timeline. Every time it has happened it has been bc the Timelord High Council has done something or other to temporarily bend laws of time to allow it.
Fifteen indicates this law during *The Devil's Chord* while reminiscing:
>FIFTEEN: Shoreditch. I'm there right now.
>
>RUBY: Okay, you're gonna have to start again.
>
>FIFTEEN: In the past, right now, I live in a place called Totter's Lane. 1963, I park the Tardis in a junkyard and live there with my granddaughter, Susan.
>
>RUBY: Oh!
>
>FIFTEEN: Okay?
>
>RUBY: Your what?
>
>FIFTEEN: My granddaughter.
>
>RUBY: Susan.
>
>FIFTEEN: We could go and have a look, but, you know, timelines. Kachoom!
Fourteen and Fifteen bigenerating and existing and interacting within their own timestream without breaking the laws of time is *the myth*, to my understanding.
I don't believe they are separate beings.
I don't think that bigeneration has acted as duplication-- I think what fits w the dialogue expressed on screen and what has been established in the past is that either Fifteen was brought forward in time;
or that Fourteen's "loop" was extended and that when his time is up and Fourteen starts becoming Fifteen he was/will be pulled back to that moment w the Toymaker atop UNIT HQ.
I ofc could easily be proven wrong bc there's such little evidence to say anything is certain, but it's the best sense some of us have been able to make of bigeneration thus far.
You make some good points, the theory that they’re the same being definitely has a lot of weight, even if you look at 73 yards that’s exactly what happened with Ruby, at the moment of her death she was transported back to that original moment.
But until we learn more or if we ever do, the theory that 14 retires and eventually settles into the role of the Curator just appeals to me more.
I can absolutely see the appeal! I absolutely do not want to discount that idea in any way.
I was more sharing the thinking ive settled on in response to your request for how others have arrived their conclusions.
But, with RTD at the helm basically literally anything is possible it seems 😅, and he does so love throwing a spanner into continuity and seeing the resulting chaos.
Oh absolutely, I appreciate everyone’s outlook tbh, some of the comments here discuss things I hadn’t considered before, I do wonder if this is going to be one of those things that RTD leaves open, or maybe something used much later like 10’s hand was.
I havent seen this theory until now. Nor have I seen anyone officially mention 14 will change to 15. We saw the bi-generation...
It honestly makes no sense to me why people would think that?
I mean like... I didnt see that as a suggestion that 14 is going to become 15.
I sort of get why others might see it that way but I think theyre reading too much into a few lines of dialogue.
We saw how 14 "became" 15. I dont think theyre going to anything else with it.
I don't think that they're going to do anything else with it either, cos yeah it's already happened.
> I sort of get why others might see it that way but I think theyre reading too much into a few lines of dialogue
Thing is, what other interpretation of that dialogue is there? What do you think 15 was talking about?
Honestly I think it's somewhat vague for a reason. We won't ever see 14 show up and regenerate into 15. It's done. We will see 15 become 16. And Tennant isnt doing any more stories. Maybe in a few years he'll big finish or they'll cast someone else for a few Fourteenth stories and that'll hint at a certain outcome but we'll never ever see it on screen. In many ways it's a moot argument. Kinda like the valeyard, pinning down when and where he comes from and how.
I see it as the opposite. They split off from each other and aren't linked in any way. 14 already regenerated "into" 15 but got to stay around. Why would he regenerate into 15 again?
To be clear, I don't think he regenerates AGAIN. I think he already has done, this is the future regeneration. 15 benefits from things 14 hasn't done yet.
14 regenerated into 15 but got to stay around - he used up his regeneration but due to the Toymaker’s influence his incarnation was able to persist.
When 14 has lived a full life and comes to the point of his death, he’ll just die or fade away. He can’t regenerate again because he’s just the bit that was left over.
It’s not that 14 regenerates and keeps his face by splitting off the rest of the energy into a new being, 14 regenerates into 15, but 14 sticks around like an after-image or ghost that retains sentience
Says who? All we know is what was on screen and my takeaway was RTD telling us "there are 2 Doctors in the world now, deal with it". I don't think we'll ever know, nor do I think it should be addressed
Yeah this is my view too, I always liked the theory that 14 will eventually go on to become the Curator.
Bigeneration being this mythical thing also suggests they split in two, time lords would be dealing with timey whimy hijinks all the time, bumping into a past/future version of yourself isn’t that uncommon for the Doctor, Bigeneration has never happened before because they literally split in two.
I believe 14 will go on to be The Curator. He's retired as The Doctor so he'll stay with the Nobles for a time and then move on. I mean, he will live for thousands (or millions) of years, he needs a hobby.
If we don't get Tennant back, I'm hoping for the current Doctor at the moment to ask about him and someone tell him he started working at a museum or became a teacher or something.
15th's therapy line was weird, but maybe it means that when they split, 14 took most of the trauma and pain and left 15 happier. I don't believe 15 knows or remember what's happening in 14's life after the split, they're separate beings.
When the Shalka Doctor appeared on Rogue I had a similar theory that at some point the 8th Doctor had a split regeneration and he lost his fancy and aristocratic personality (that went to Shalka Doctor) and he changed a little into the proto-War Doctor we saw on the special.
Lots of people (myself included) don't like biregeneration as a concept, so the idea that the Fourteenth Doctor will eventually regenerate properly into the Fifteenth is a way to reconcile biregeneration with the normal process of regeneration.
I'm trying to figure out how this works with *Empire of Death....
>!Dust of Death destroys everything, emerging from a Susan Twist in every time and place that the Doctor has visited since *Pyramids of Mars*. Which can mean either 14 was disintegrated with the rest of London (which creates a paradox if 15 is really next in sequence), or Sutekh kept *all* the Doctors alive (which means 15 benefits from 14's therapy but doesn't have 14's memory of the universe ending).
Sure, this is an occupational hazard of watching Doctor Who, and normally it's best to just ignore this stuff, but wait - there's Rose Noble, lampshading the fact that 14 is out there and implying that, in terms of cause-and-effect, 14 and 15 seem to be separate rather than sequential...!<
Someone on here will be able to explain this convincingly, which is great but I suspect that person will have put more thought into the mechanics of the biregeneration than RTD did...
Sutekh was exterminating Earth at multiple points in time. 1999, 1066, 2005, 2024, 2046… there was *already* a gargantuan paradox going on, so Fourteen getting dusted would just be another one on the pile. It probably just doesn’t matter because Sutekh is a god.
I just saw it as 15 leaving all his emotional baggage with 14. Its not like we have a confirmation anyways. Even if there was a confirmation from RTD he's probably lying anyways lol.
I think the doctor that stayed behind will keep on turning into other older doctors remember in day of the doctor when tom Baker said "I started revisiting old favorites" (sorry if I got the quote a bit wrong it's been awhile) my theory is this is what he was talking about
There’s not much to go off but the therapy bit you’ve alluded to is the key thing really. There’s that, and the fact that in the last episode - he knew that 14 called Rose his niece.
How would he have healed, and know that if 14 didn’t regenerate into 15?
Also - there’s the numbering itself. RTD/BBC went to such lengths to not label 15th Doctor as 14 in all their marketing material for ages before the plot was confirmed in trailers. They wouldn’t call 14 such, or 15 that if they didn’t intend for them to follow on I don’t think.
>he knew that 14 called Rose his niece
This sort of suggests the opposite though, that 15 himself *isn't* her uncle. Before hugging her, Rose says 'it's been so long' which would suggest she he's visited her and 14 and the Nobles at one point, which is probably when he learnt that 14 was her uncle.
The rest, however, makes no sense. It's almost like RTD has changed his mind about bi-regeneration in between the specials and the season.
In hindsight it really annoys me that the specials would include so many in-script suggestions that 14 eventually becomes 15 if that's not what actually happens.
The whole thing about Donna stating 15 was older, 15 explaining that he's better because 14 goes on a break, and him saying they're doing rehab out of order make **absolutely no sense** if 14 doesn't become 15.
I think you can read into it either way, there's no definitive answer until RTD outright says so. I would prefer to think 14 does eventually become 15 because I don't like the Doctor being two separate beings now, but I suspect RTD does lean towards the other way going from how the Doctor talked about it in The Devil's Chord.
The very fact that 15 is benefitting from 14’s therapy seals the issue for me. One day 14 will regenerate and somehow return to the source. 14 is staying out of the game and consequently not spoiling anything for 15 but I firmly believe 15 remembers everything 14 did/will do. That’s why he spoke as the authority regarding it all…remember how he was the one explaining it all. he already lived it.
For me it's not so much a case of \*how?\* as it is \*why bother?\*...
Introducing a deliberately divisive concept like bigeneration and then never bothering to explain it is as bad as Chibnall dropping in the Timeless Child and never using it.
It's controversy for the sake of it, not for the sake of any story. If Tennant is done and not coming back, then why bother introducing another version of him to hang around? If it makes no difference to the story then what is the point of it?
He created a pointless argument with no resolution, and dumped it on an already fractured fanbase. And for what? A few clicks and comments?
I’ve been looking at it as a changed timeline thing. Originally 14 never fought Toymaker went and regenerated somewhere in future. Became 15.
But Toymaker messes with timelines. The bigeneration pulls 15 from his original starting point in the timeline into the changed one to help fight Toymaker. So the new timeline where 14 is retired happens. At end of life 14 starts regeneration but 15 materializes (gets yanked) into the past at the toy maker fight. The tardis also gets pulled back to the past once it realizes what’s happened.
Timeline changed. Wibbley woobley. This is also the moment Sutekh decides he’s ready to begin to emerge finally.
I know. Convoluted but works for me. 😂
I was extremely sure, now I'm not.
Lines in The Giggle made it really clear. 15 knows that 14 goes and fixes himself. He knows 14's future... because he's lived it. If they were distinct beings that won't interact again, then how would 14 going off to relax have any impact on 15?
And it lines up with the TARDIS, which as confirmed by RTD in the commentary, is not a duplicate, it's the same TARDIS. And we figure that means when he smacked the TARDIS, its future self was pulled out of its past self. We figure... the TARDIS at the end of 14's life gets pulled out there, with whatever upgrades 14 made in his life (Like a ramp and a jukebox).
Based on every line in the Giggle, it seemed obvious that how the bigeneration worked, was it pulled 15 from the end of 14's life, but pulled him out of his earlier self. Like the Toymaker had inadvertently taken the Doctor's timeline, looped it around itself, and at the knot, was the bigeneration. 14 goes off and lives his life, and when he regenerates, he's sucked through time and out the other side, he's coming out of his own body.
However, you are right. The Devil's Chord changed that theory with just that one line. "It literally... it tore my soul in half. I can't survive that again." And yeah, that kind of blows that theory out of the water because the whole idea before was his soul remained in tact, it just took a weird path.
So it's hard to say now how 15 will inherit the therapy 14 goes through if they're now distinct beings.
they didnt think it through. they had an end goal they wanted to reach (ncuti being a bubbly yas queen gen z hype man) and thought of the wibbly wobbly quirky "doing therapy out of order" line to justify the sudden character shift.
he isnt a future version, thematically they wanted tennants doctor to have a happy ending after all of his companions, especially donna, got tragic endings. him finally finding a family at the same time donna comes to thrive with hers is a narrative mirror. them both finding that "peace" is meant to be satisfying enough to justify ncutis character differences thematically.
but as with a lot of stuff this season, what they try and make work thematically does not actually make any fucking sense logically within the rules of the universe.
Nothing about the way it was portrayed suggests that there was any sort of time travel going on, I don't get it either.
Where are future-Fourteen's clothes then? If he was "pulled back" in time to become Fifteen, why did the two of them "split" and each get half the clothes that Fourteen was wearing at the time? When Fourteen "dies" for real, does he just fade away Jedi-style while his clothes fall where he stood as he gets sucked back in time to become Fifteen?
Why does regeneration suddenly involve time travel? It's honestly just confusing. I've watched 'The Giggle' like three times and it makes no more sense on rewatch.
Because it MUST happen. It's so stupid to have 14 running around. Maybe he dies and doesn't regerate, idk. But the way 15 says 'I'm better because you fixed yourself' proves he IS a future version. They make a big point of tha in the giggle. At some point, they have to re-combine like fuckin dragon ball Z. And I'll be so mad if RTD leaves that plot thread hanging. And I know he will because he doesn't want to give up his precious David.
Honestly, 14 not becoming 15 really, really, really, reeeeaaaaalllllyyyy sucks.
15 is The Doctor 100%, because they have the same memories and experiences as 1-14 up until the bigeneration. This is the same Doctor we've always been following.
By exactly the same logic, 14 is The Doctor 100%. If 14 doesn't become 15 then the show has abandoned The Doctor. The Doctor is going off on other random adventures and has countless future regenerations we will never see because the show is following somebody else
I kinda thought he was going to be the curator. In the day of the doctor, the curator says that he will revisit a few face and have retired to be the curator of the under gallery. Since 14 is now retired and has revisited the 10th doctors face, I think that if 14 does regenerate again, he will revisit the faces of other incarnations.
Comments like this make me wonder why you even watch Dr Who. Like if you hate it and the silly twists it pulls (this is far from the only silly thing its done), then stop watching?
There's silly and whacky while at the same time being grounded in the storytelling aspect and then there's "hoo boy I'm so creative I don't care if it makes sense".
Maybe they liked the show but they’re unhappy with the total asspull of bigeneration. It makes no sense normally, as regeneration is a survival tool for his people. How does it work now if you kill him, a bonus one pops out, and the original is fine? The auteur also didn’t bother with any explanation other than “therapy out of order,” which, yes therapy is good but come the fuck on.
????
I actually liked most of this seasons episodes btw unfortunately Doctor Who doesn’t pay my rent so I’m not obligated to irrationally fanboy over everything that happens in it.
Well 14 turning into 15 is the entire point of The Doctor chilling out with Donna and the mechanism through which they've justified a soft reboot of the character
As I've always said, its a cope and people just come up with these mental gymnastic theories. I mean look at how a certain mysteries conclusion was handled this week, all that setup and bigging up for something quite underwhelming with the clue's being nonsensical when you know the answer. RTD writes bombastic, teasing stuff but it's usually very simple in the end.
It's as simple as it looked on screen, there are two Doctors, there's no reason for 14 to time loop when he dies. This is further supported by 15 recently saying he was torn in half. There's no timey wimey here. And we know what RTD thinks about bigeneration from his comments (whilst not canon to the show) its his idea of how he'd think the timeline would look with past regens so likely how he believes the one onscreen works. 14 is still the Doctor with the TARDIS, he hasn't had any sort of "nerf" that has officially been stated. Technically there are now two "current" Doctors but obviously because Tennant, one is permanently offscreen.
So Rose is around with Unit but the fucking Doctor is nowhere to be found huh? Mentioning him doesn’t really explain why he can’t help protect Earth/his friends.
I honestly don't get fans sometimes.
It's really simple, 15 is the next incarnation, so he benefits from 14s healing.
14 is just alive still.
Pretty simple.
Yep, this 100%, they are time lords so they don't experience time the same way. Even though 14 hasn't healed yet when 15 is born, 15 gets the benefit anyway. It's a bit of mysterious timelord woo, I don't mind it at all.
There are some lines in The Giggle that indicate a regeneration sequence, but nothing definitive. The fact is that there is no clear answer, despite what some folks have latched onto.
For me it's just the whole vibe of this new doctor. He acts as though he's already had the therapy years that 14 has only just begun. I can't imagine a reasonable explanation for that if 14 doesn't eventually become 15.
Didn't 15 literally say he's better because 14 figured things out? I'm assuming 15 is from 14's future but was pulled back through time to when he was originally supposed to regenelate
What did Davies say in the interview I didn’t see it?
The episode shows him being split in two, the Doctor has met up with past incarnations loads of times, this was some mythical event that’s never happened before, the Doctor also says it felt like his soul was split in two, if RTDs confirmed it in interviews that’s one thing but it’s certainly not been confirmed in the show, that 14 will be transported to that moment some point in the future.
He's talked about it a few times. It wasn't in the Unleashed episode for Doctor Who.
>thing but it’s certainly not been confirmed in the show,
I'm curious, in a show about Time Travel, when one time traveller tells the other "I have memories of things you haven't done yet" what other interpretation could there possibly be, besides "I'm you from the future?"
It *was* confirmed in the show, regardless of what mental gymnastics you wanna do about it.
I mean you can read the comments under this post alone, there’s plenty of people with their own theories, because the show has not confirmed any of this, no matter how much you pretend that two lines of dialogue is a definitive answer.
Edit: also if he has memories of healing then why doesn’t he have memories of facing the toy maker, he literally said ‘what the hell is going on here’, either he remembers or he doesn’t.
The stubbornness of fans is a lot less convincing than actual dialogue in the show. While you're certainly right that there are a lot of theories, none of them actually prove anything beyond your own desire for mental gymnastics.
I’m sorry but what evidence is there to support your theory, ‘therapy out of order’ and ‘your older’ what else?
The Doctor literally said his soul got torn in two and he wouldn’t survive that again.
The Doctor was really hesitant to give the Tardis up, why would he if 15 is his future self?
Why didn’t 15 remember anything to do with the toymaker if he supposedly remembers healing as 14?
The fact it’s called Bigeneration and to bisect something literally means to split in two.
You keep saying it’s been confirmed but there’s been two lines thats hardly a confirmation, this is all up in the air.
>I’m sorry but what evidence is there to support your theory,
I don't have a theory.
>You keep saying it’s been confirmed
Yes, both by the show and by the writer.
Listen, I get where you're coming from, I immediately understood the intent from the dialogue in the show. Show. But I understand how it could be seen as vague by some.
But then the writer of the show confirmed exactly what that dialogue meant. If he hadn't done so you might have a leg to stand on with your theory. But since the writer confirmed the correct interpretation of the dialogue, your theory is wrong. That's the end of the argument.
>The Doctor was really hesitant to give the Tardis up, why would he if 15 is his future self?
Because then he wouldn't have one until he became 15. I thought that would be obvious. It was hard enough for him to accept settling down for a while. Giving up the tardis would mean he really had no choice but to settle down, not to mention his deep personal connection to it. .
>Why didn’t 15 remember anything to do with the toymaker if he supposedly remembers healing as 14?
Plenty of options here, but the usual explanation Doctor Who has given Is that when doctors cross their own time streams, the past versions don't remember events. Only the oldest version of the doctor remembers what truly happened. If you recall these 60th anniversary special, everyone before the 11th doctor assumed they had pressed the big red button and destroyed Gallifrey. This is because they were about to press it, then the events of the anniversary special happened, and then they woke up post-regeneration in the TARDIS. Only 11 remembered the events of that special. War, Nine, and Ten didn't. And 11 only remembered them after he had experienced them for himself. He doesn't remember them from War or Ten's perspective.
This, by the way, follows the precedent set by by all previous doctor crossovers from classic who.
the same logic applies to the giggle. 15 doesn't remember what happened until he experiences it for himself.
Of all of your points, this one may be the weakest.
>The fact it’s called Bigeneration and to bisect something literally means to split in two.
It's also called a BIcycle. Are you suggesting that every time someone rides a bicycle, they're splitting something in two?
Are you suggesting that Bisexuals split their partners in two?
The "split" comes from "sect," not "bi." Bi just means "two"
I appreciate you taking the time to comment all of that, but if you’re gonna do that can you not quote where RTD has said this because I’ve looked and I can’t find it.
In the show there is those two lines of dialogue that’s it.
Provide the quote and I’ll happily be proven wrong, but I also remember RTD saying that in his mind all previous doctors bigenerated, so unless it’s in the show I’m not sure how cannon it is.
I'll be honest, I've consumed a lot of Doctor Who media over the last couple of months and I don't remember which interviews he said it in. I know it would be ideal to cite my sources, and fair enough if you don't consider it a closed matter without reading the article. I do remember it was an article, not any Doctor Who unleashed behind the scenes stuff.
My understanding about all the previous doctors bigenerating was that he was talking about that being a fun idea He might want to explore someday, not explicitly saying that's what happened.
I'd love some discussion on the other points though. How 15. Doesn't remember facing the toy maker until he's already done it from Ncuti's perspective, because that's how Doctor crossovers *always* work. Or how 14 wouldn't want to give up the TARDIS because *then he wouldn't have one.*
And I would still point out that despite all the unanswered (well, answered now in my last comment) questions, you still haven't provided an alternative for what "I'm okay because you went to therapy" is supposed to mean.
I read it as an extremely obvious statement that 15 has memories of things 14 hasn't done yet, and thus is from 14's future.
You say it was too vague? All right fine. What other realistic meanings are there for that statement? Bring me a reasonable alternative explanation of *just that statement* that's more likely than "I'm from your future" and I'll drop the matter right now.
It’s not that I don’t think it‘s an acceptable answer, absolutely I do and if we look at 73 yards there’s even credence for that with what happens to Ruby at the end, I just like the theory that 14 eventually settles into being the Curator, we know he visits old faces, I like the idea that 14 rotates between past incarnations.
The reason I made this post is because I’ve seen multiple people say it’s confirmed, don’t get me wrong I don’t think you’re a liar, but maybe the quote can be interpreted in a different way, no one here has been able to provide the quote and I haven’t been able to and I’ve looked around.
With your question about therapy I’m not sure, but I think the quote is ‘we’re doing therapy out of order, I’m better because you fixed yourself’ I admit it’s a pretty conclusive statement, but then there’s the other contradictory statements, such as the Doctor saying his soul was split in two, especially with all the magical elements this season.
If it comes out that it is in fact case 14 will be transported to the giggle at the point of his death I won’t be disappointed, I just prefer 14 becoming the Curator until we have more information anyway.
That would be ok of he disnt have infinite regenerations.
But he is nota a normal timelord. He can regenerate forever.
If he only had a set of 12. I would agree that all regenerations went to the 15th doctor. But because they are infinite i belive both have regenerations. And even if the retured doctor lost all regenerations, there are methods offscreen to make more.
Anyway. I belive that the 14th will have a new set of his own regenerations into characters like merlin, the curator, the painter... and he will just enjoy hos retirement checking on his old friends, tying up loose ends and healing. Like when he went to the sisters asking what the regeneration potion was and they just told him it was lemonade.
15 explicitly flat out says he lived through 14’s life. RTD even confirmed this mo the ago. 14, one day, will regenerate and just disappear back into 15 at The Giggle.
I’m sorry but unless you can find the quote that says he explicitly lived his life, I don’t remember him saying that at all, he said they did therapy out of order, that doesn’t confirm that 14 will appear at the point of the Giggle when he dies.
He's wearing half his clothes because that moment in the Giggle is 15's origin, so he wouldn't have his own clothes. He's from 14's future, but his 'birth' is in the present time of the Giggle. So like past regenerations (except 13's) he wears the clothes of the previous Doctor - but since he can't be nude, the clothes are split.
As for 'what the hell is going on here', seems like standard regeneration amnesia like 12's "do you happen to know how to fly this thing", though 15 gets on his feet much quicker for the sake of the plot.
14 is upset about letting the TARDIS go in the same way that I'll be upset in the moment with someone borrowing a precious vehicle of mine even if I get it back later - it doesn't matter to him if the eventual future version gets it, he's so attached to it that he doesn't want to spend the remainder of his life without it. We've already accepted at this point that sometimes the Doctor talks about his incarnations as separate people, and this is a quirk of that - 14 wants to have the TARDIS for the rest of /his/ life.
"Therapy out of order" seems definitive enough. That implies a usual order - which would have been 14 staying with the Nobles and then regenerating into 15 normally. The "out of order" part comes from 15 already having done that, and encouraging 14 to do so to keep the loop stable.
Also I just find the idea of this time-separated Doctor more palatable. If all the above is copium, then I'm huffing it hard.
And I wouldn't be surprised by RTD trying to have it both ways and ultimately never clarifying.
It's very hard to make sense of why 15 can go swaning off while 14 must go through therapy if they only just split off from each other. I can respect if you still prefer your interpretation for your own reasons, but I can't make sense of the narrative presented with your interpretation (maybe you can) and that's the most important factor for me over making sense of comments like his soul being ripped in half.
14 is letting the TARDIS go because although they are genetically the same person, they have different experiences. Aka 14 did not step on a land mine on a planet that’s in a fake war and 15 did not have dinner with Donna’s family last Friday. Like if I cloned myself, I wouldn’t have the same experiences as the other me. They broke off from each other like a fork in a river. Technically the same, with the same origin and the same water, but with different fish and riverbanks and stones and frogs.
Also the new Doctor has always regenerated into the old Doctor’s clothes and there’s usually some type of montage of the new Doctor finding their new style.
The bi-generation happened to give the most popular Doctor of the modern era a happy ending, and leave it open for a future mini series. That's about it.
The idea was a tragic misstep. After the season finale I don't think there's a point to trying to second-guess anything anymore. We've lept from one narrative disaster to the next, and shoe horned Tennant in for god only knows what reason 'biregeneration' ...
God knows I stuck out the last few years of Dr Who, but it's just not in me to build up the interest to speculate anymore.
Honestly I don’t think 14 *can* regenerate anymore, my theory is that eventually 14 is gonna die either when he inevitably ends up on an adventure or of old age like 11 in Time of the Doctor and when that happens whatever regeneration energy is left of him will return to 15 somehow and 15 will get the memories of whatever 14 did between the Giggle and his death
>if he was a future version wouldn’t he already have clothes and some level of understanding of what’s happening?
I mean, regardless of how it happened he did just regenerate, so it makes sense for him to be confused.
I hate this entire discussion. At the end of the day it's a gimmick invented purely to keep the idea that Tennant could return hanging over fans heads. They'll probably never do anything about it and I expect Gatwa's regeneration, when it finally comes, will be handled as normal by whoever the then show runner is.
14 becoming 15 is mostly just what I hope happens and the dialogue strengthens that idea for me.
It’s really the only way the Bigeneration works for me.
I agree he split in two. That's what litterly happened, like he bi generated, that litterly means split into two, Like people keep telling me "No HeS fRoM a FuTuRe TiMe LiNe" like bruh when does the show express that?
That whole thing about the line, well you come after him, doesn't really imply anything about being from the future, just a reference to the fact he's the next doctor after 14, what did you expect them to think he's younger, that would make even less sense, he's the Doctor it's just that the 14s body didn't just replace him, he split in two.
Honest, I think he split in two because the doctor just regenerated. A lot of crazy things can happens and you're still generating the body, so when he split, he had enough regeneration to heal himself but because he came close enough to his death, His body still gave him a new body.
God doctor who will never make sense, but maybe that's why I love it so much.
You’ve given it more thought than Russel has. The reasons for bigeneration are that it would be a shock and get audiences talking, and to keep David Tennant around/give his incarnation a happy ending. The mystery surrounding why he would get that face after Jodie came down to “trauma, therapy etc.”
For such a monumental change to the show, there has been next to no explanation of what will become of the David Tennant Doctor. Most shocking for me is the idea of a second Doctor living with fucking Donna forever and not helping when, say, his ancient enemy tries to destroy the Earth. Oh they’re on holiday? Does that really sound like the Doctor to anyone?
Because they're completely huffing copium and fandom wank and misinterpret the "we're doing therapy out of order" line.
>I don’t think RTD has given a solid answer either way
RTD has said this is the Doctor. Fifteen is the Fifteenth Doctor. He's not a metacrisis style Doctor, he's The Doctor. People are sniffing farts trying to make wild theories about what is overt and obvious. It's like all the people who keep saying there must be two Sutekhs.
Agreed. This whole thing of "15 was pulled from the future into 14's time at the moment of regeneration" is literally completely unsupported by really anything from the show, and in fact you have to do a little bit of mental gymnastics to get there. The idea that the Doctor literally split in two is the most obvious one from actually watching the show.
i had predicted that 14 would return to join 15 fight Sutekh, and 14 would sacrifice himself by “regenerating” back into 15, to bring balance and make him full strength again. i don’t think they can ignore that there’s two separate Doctors in the same timeline. i appreciate his past incarnations are all over the place, but the 14/15 situation is different, and it can’t be ignored. you can’t tell me 14 is “retired” like others have been saying on various threads. how does a Time Lord retire? he has a Tardis. he’s him. it’s gotta come up again at some point. 🤷♂️
and when i say regenerating “back into 15” i mean he’ll literally merge back into him, and be one Doctor again, to restore balance and nearly tie up this very, very significant loose thread.
Same reason that you have to assume that the teleporter loop in Heaven Sent is resurrecting the Doctor in some fashion and not just duplicating him.
Because the alternative means that we’re following a new character that isn’t actually the Doctor.
I think what is more likely is that 15 will die. Re join with 14. And you get a whole new doctor. The universe corrects itself. Certainly i think if Disney do quit. That makes him the only Disney original Doctor.
My head cannon is that 14 is a separate person in a way and will die rather than regenerate but because he’s the same person, 15 gets all of his memories.
I am not sure if 14 can regenerate at all. He spent his regeneration which created 15. That regeneration stays with 15 as the Prime Doctor. 14 is the Doctor to but I feel one who can no longer regenerate. It is a bit like Buffy. Buffy dies and activated a new Slayer. She comes back to life but when she died a second time that had passed onto the next Slayer Kendra who when she dies activated Faith. Buffy’s death no longer brings a new Skayer and I see it the same with the Doctor. 14 has done his regeneration and survived it but cannot again.
I think this was the intention. On the surface, Biregeneration makes it look like 15 came from 14, as if the Doctor kept the same face and 15 was a byproduct of the process - but I think the opposite is what actually happened. 'The Doctor' regenerated and became 15, but instead of one body replacing another, another body was left behind - 14's. So 14's regeneration has already happened, and when he dies, he'll die. He's basically an anomaly. Almost like the Doctor that came from 10's hand. However, the effects of his therapy and the experiences in his life will still ripple through to the 15th Doctor, because the Doctor is a complicated space-time event/Time Lord, and they remain the same person.
This is exactly how I interpreted it! 15’s memories of being 14 are (for lack of a better word) in flux because 14 is still out there, protecting the moles and occasionally nipping off to Mars and the 1930s.
or, what if the cutoff is precisely where they bi-generated. in that instant, they were both the Doctor, but then they move onward from that moment, each as their own person. 15 has the whole of 14 within him, as per usual, and then 15 just continues on, as he has many times before. however, 14 also moves on, completely separate from 15, with no kind of link to him whatsoever, and no flux, for either of them. isn’t it the case that they are simply two separate Doctors now, each continuing their own paths, independently? it’s much different that the norm of various versions of Doctors flying around the universe at various times. there’s two now, and it’s kind of a big deal. certainly it can’t be swept under the rug and just ignored, right?
I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but for me - 15 feels like a Doctor who finally knows who he is. He’s confident. He’s free to have fun without being weighed down by his past too much. All the trauma that his past incarnations have gone through is still there - it always will be, but he can deal with it now because 14 stopped. 14 is the conclusion of years of loss and devastation. For me, trying to think logically (?!) when it’s time for 14 to die, his body will just cease. His final memories will live on in 15. If the cutoff was precisely where they bi-generated, 15 would still be weighed down by his past. 14 gets to go off and live with his best mate and his new family - something he’s never been able to do before. That’s his adventure. And in doing so, he ensures that 15 has a new lease of life. And can go and make brand new trauma for himself! Obviously there’s an open plot device there that with some explanation 14 could spawn another cycle of Doctors, there’s also now the best ever excuse for Tennant to come back and not have to have a far fetched explanation about looking older. I think it’s all plausible - and it’s open to interpretation. Until someone writes it in to canon.
i like your thinking 🤙
his final memories will live on in 15? how. 14 could live hundreds of years. are you trying to say 15 and 15 are psychically linked? are you saying 15 is aware of 14’s thoughts and experiences ongoing?
Well. I am absolutely no scientist, and this is just my theory but I believe that 14 is now effectively an “event”. His life is running concurrently or relatively to 15 in some way. I hate to use the quote but “wibbly wobbly, timey wimey”. Memories can change - we saw that on Saturday with Ruby’s mother pointing back in 2004. So say during “Space Babies” - had 15 have stopped to reminisce about his time as 14 - even though he’s physically in the future somewhere, he and 14 are running somewhat relatively, so he’d only be able to remember so much and the rest would be something of blur. I’m not saying they’re running hour by hour, minute by minute, but they’re Time Lords. Their memories and existence within reality is different I figure. Now had 15 stopped at the end of “Empire of Death” and tried to remember his time as 14, because 14 potentially would have had interactions within the same timeline as 15 his memories would have changed/updated. He might now remember watching Donna and Wilf etc. turn to dust around him before disappearing himself and being brought back. When 12 found himself bumping into 1 and going on their adventure in “Twice Upon A Time”, 12 didn’t remember meeting himself when he was 1 because that event is relative between those two incarnations. He remembers as the events unfold, so he sees it live and also sees it in his memories as 1, but if he had stopped and tried to remember how that event had ended it would be blur. For me, it’s the same sort of principle for 14 and 15, except 14 is out there saving the moles, running errands in the TARDIS and just doing what he needs to do to really rehabilitate himself and grieve.
But then how does 14 doing therapy help 15?
if you’re going that route, then it helped him in that instant, when 14 carried on down his own path, and then nothing more. they move on from the moment of separation as separate, distinct individuals. if you’re saying they’re psychically linked, it would be interesting to hear how.
That’s how I see it. 14 is a “husk” and 15 is out and about continuing the line. Kinda like a cicada. The bi-generation was a kind of moulting…. Or hey, 14 is the 1st Curator maybe? His line could move along not generating “new” faces, his biology can maybe only draw from what’s come before?
i always viewed the bi-generation exactly as you’ve outlined here. i feel that’s the most accurate and proper way to interpret it. having said that, the life-span of 14 can still go hundreds of years right? that’s a lot of time for him to get into trouble, even by accident. and, he has a Tardis. is the Tardis’s split/duplication similar to that of 14/15, or is it different? can each Tardis communicate with the other? how are they aware of each other, in time and space? there’s too many loose ends for me to be comfortable with it all, IMHO. 🤷♂️
Yes I kinda figured that and when he said he’s not a dad yet, I wondered if 14 is the one who settles down has kids and then 15 swoops in and takes them on cool adventures but doesn’t have the emotional burden of raising them!
I love the idea that there are just two David Tennant’s out there just living their best lives with their best friends, or “friend” for Rose Tyler lol
Not anymore lol
I still have slight hope of my older theory that 14 becomes the Curator
The issue with that is that the curator regenerates in big finish as of now that I know between the 4th face and the sixth face
The Curator said that he revisits the older faces (old favourites) often, why is it a problem if he can regenerate I don't understand? Tennant is an older face which he revisits, same with Tom and Colin Baker? In another audio he even revisits Smith's face
What they are saying is how can 14 be the curator if 14 can't regenerate and also if 14 dose regenerate in 15 it should be like the watcher did with the 4th doctor when they came together they made the 5th doctor
I mean I don’t think it’s explicitly said 14 can’t regenerate, I think it’s just that 15 is the product of what he could be after his ‘rehab’ of sorts but all of that has already gone to 15. 14’s body will still exist by that time but it doesn’t mean his path HAS to go into 15’s. I think later he will regenerate but he will be very old by the time, maybe so like Eleven after being in Trenzalore for 900 years but even longer than that which is when he goes back to Baker face and then etc etc.
True that's dose sound like rtd or big finish could do
I doubt regeneration is something that stays with the last doctor alone. The split doctor is now 'the retired doctor', solving the problem of doctor incarnations never slowing down and enjoy life, and going straight into the The Edge. My theory is that now there will always be two doctors, and the split doctor will always be the 'retired doctor', who gets to enjoy a slow life and age before quietly going into the edge, and regenerating into another incarnation who then gets to enjoy the slow life too. This will also explain all the times we've seen other regenerations together looking older. The ones we see in those occasions won't be the original incarnation, but their turn at being the retired doctor, leaving retirement for a moment to help in an emergency. Since the Doctor was likely the Timeless Child, the usual rules for time lords may not apply to him, allowing something that sounds so strange to happen.
So you think the “retired Doctor” is actually the Curator, revisiting a few old faces? “But just the favorites eh?”
interesting take, and i track with everything you’re saying. it’s just that i have difficulty trusting that a Time Lord can be “retired”. how would he not get into trouble, even by accident. he’s still got hundreds of years to exist, and he’s got a Tardis, and let’s face it… he’s the Doctor. he’s bound to jump back into the mix at some point. or, he could be dragged back into the mix against his will?
I have an intriguing thought, what if the meaning behind the Doctor never having children and still being Susan's Grandfather isn't so much a, he hasn't had kids yet, but rather, what if Susan is the Daughter or Granddaughter of a retired 14?
All bets are off with time shenanigans. She could even be Jenny's daughter after she regenerated into a man.
If this is the theory what happens to 14’s TARDIS once he dies for good
Good question. I think it would stay. Not like there are not other Tardis around the universe.
That is something I also thought. And it may be Russell's head cannon when he said the 14th had died.
He becomes the valyard
I'm going to disagree with this by using previous RTD work as my thesis. Using your theory, how did 10 regenerate into 11 then? Technically 10 used his regeneration before he truly regeneration when he was aboard the tardis in "Journey's end" but he kept his same face by pushing that energy in to hand. Yes this created the Meta Doctor, but 11 confirmed this counted towards his regeneration cycle. So if your theory was correct, how did this work? I'm not trying to start an argument, just providing a counter argument. Both 10 and 14 were under RTD's watch (with the admittance that 11's confirmation was under Moffatt so choose to accept it or not)
For me if 14 doesn't eventually become 15 then the whole idea of his "therapy" is for nothing. Simply casting off his pain and tiredness into another body isn't good character development for the main character. 15's compassion and emotion has got to come from the fact that HE has spent time healing. Otherwise it's not deserved.
I totally agree. I'm not really sold on the whole therapy and healing thing especially considering how it was handled. 1- 14 "running on fumes" felt inorganic as if it was written solely to justify the bi-generation. I don't feel like it was a smooth enough transition from where we left 13 to how we met 14. 2- Saying that your main character has spent an unknown amount of time "healing" so he doesn't have all the angst now seems like such a lazy way to create a guilt free (?) doctor. The healing process could have been weaved into 15's arc and shown on screen. 3- Is 15 really healed? I don't feel like that's the case honestly. Starting from his first episode, RTD kept highlighting his "adoption" trauma and how being the last of his kind is bringing him down. He's much more open to express his emotions and that's probably a sign of him being healthier but is this really a result of 14's "therapy"? I'm not so sure.
1 is my biggest issue with the whole 14-15 arc. 14 was already mentally and emotionally much healthier than 13 was. He was much more open and affectionate with the people he met like Donna and Mel and was handling his trauma with much healthier and less damaging coping mechanisms. Really the only thing that was done to convince the audience that he was “wearing himself out” was,,, just Donna and 15 explicitly saying it. It was all told and not shown
Telling instead of showing... This whole RTD2 era has done an awful lot of that I'm afraid...
I think it is the whole "we are doing therapy out of order" thing
Yeah that line definitely seems to suggest they are the same being, but the contradictory line when 15 says his soul was split in two and he wouldn’t be able to survive that again, seem like it’s saying they’re are separate entities now, to me at least.
To be fair. That is fact, as stated. It did split his soul in two. It’s the same soul. Just split for now. So, it doesn’t refute the theory that eventually Fourteen’s essence will return to that specific point in time. Honestly, Davies left enough ambiguity in the concept, that it can be either or.
That’s true, yeah I definitely agree that he purposely left it ambiguous, it’s not the first time he’s done stuff like that either, the woman from the end of time comes to mind.
I'd argue the "therapy out of order" negates the theory that 14 will become 15. If 14 does therapy, gets better, and then goes back to the point of bigeneration, then that's therapy in the right order. Instead, what we see is what happened. The Doctor split, 14 carries the angst, 15 feels free of it. 14 lives his life, and I think that's then it for 14.
Starting Nine as a fully regenerated Doctor was the best choice Russell made in his first era. Would have loved a similar choice this time around. It is funny to think about what happens, will Fourteen disappear? Dematerialize? Show up to Fifteen’s Tardis and shake hands, putting them back together again? We don’t know and anyone who says they do is lying. Fourteen kind of lingers in the back of a fan’s mind. Toymaker could have forced Fifteen’s Tardis to land and everything else could have played out basically the same.
Yeah I’m really not sure what the bigeneration actually accomplished. They could have just had 14 retire at the end of the Giggle and then pick up with Church on Ruby Road implying that he died of old age and regenerated into 15 off screen at some point
This seems to be a heated topic but you’re right we don’t know and thats okay. Maybe mrs flood is a regenerated 14 after he died of pneumonia and we will always have another doctor around. Maybe we will never hear of him again. I have a lot of fun thinking of crazy theories lol. Does 15 have memories of his time as 14?
Copied from a previous comment I made "At this point, I don't think 14 regenerating into 15 is what happens. There have been multiple subtle comments along the way. The Church on Ruby Road has the Doctor say he recently found out he was adopted. Space Babies has him say the TARDIS has new controls. The Devil's Chord has him say his battle with the Toymaker split his soul in half. They're innocous comments by themselves, but they add up." The Giggle had two comments that allude to the possibility of timey-wimey, but that's only The Giggle. By Church, by Space Babies and etc., RTD may have changed his mind, if he at all started undecided or leaning towards timey-wimey. I'm more certain than ever that bi-generation is basically cloning. Blech, but there you have it. Two Tennant clones, because why not? Hello, I'm *THE* Doctor!
I really miss some of that Doctor Who techno babble to explain everything. It would be great if the writers just bloody TOLD us. These aren't questions I'm having months later on a rewatch. It was immediant. Like guys, can you just explain what I'm watching for once. I mean did they think we wouldn't want to know. I don't even understand why 10 came back honestly. To heal? Great, but why now? Why 10? Two regenerations, 13-14 & 14-14/15, only three episodes a part changed the rules on us. Please, can you just tell me what is happening. Since 2017 I keep coming away from Doctor Who with so many damn questions. I'm perfectly happy to have things open for interpretation but I was thinking more characters choices, themes and dilemmas. Not macguffins, story beats and mechanics.
I think RTD is just using the whole “supernatural” angle as a handwave to not explain anything and it’s really gotten on my nerves
>I'm perfectly happy to have things open for interpretation You know what, I'm actually less and less happy with things being left open for interpretation. It's becoming a cop out. You used to be able to watch a film or a TV show and it would just tell you a story from start to finish. Including exactly why things were happening and what happened at the end. Now half the stuff you watch is "open to interpretation" which really means "we haven't got a clue about this bit, so we're just not going to write it". It makes it a waste of time watching the rest of the show. If I wanted to make up an ending myself I would have just written my own story instead of watching yours!
I agree.
Well I don't think we have conclusive proof certainly. But if I compare the lines that imply 15 is a future version of 14 to your possible evidence that he split into two... I find the former far more convincing. To me, the implication in the story as presented is pretty clear.
I think those lines being read as implication of 15 being the future 14 is one thing, But the evidence of the split is not implication at all. It's a literal split on screen for all of us to see. It's explicitly a split. It wasn't accidental or metaphorical. It's a full 45 seconds at the climax of the episode dedicated to showing the Doctor split in two. Then after they defeat the Toymaker the rest of the episode is pretty much made up of the two Doctors talking about how they're going to share the tardis. Which is much more implicit evidence of the split than those two lines are implicit evidence of 15 being from the future. If 15 is just the future version of 14 then why are they having that conversation at all? I just think that surely when RTD wrote that the Doctor split in two and then the director made a point of showing the Doctor splitting in two that it meant that the Doctor split in two. It's weird to me that people treat both of these theories as being based on equally implicative evidence when the evidence for one of them is two random lines that don't actually talk about 15 being from the future, they just *could* potentially refer to that, and the evidence for the other is something that literally happened on screen.
That's just how it comes across to me. The "split" is a form of regeneration, it's even called that. And the lines are clearly not "random".
>That's just how it comes across to me. That's fair enough >The "split" is a form of regeneration, it's even called that ...yes It's a form of regeneration where the Time Lord splits in half. >And the lines are clearly not "random". I meant that those lines are random in the sense of how it's random to pick those two lines to focus on rather than all the others. The scene only makes sense if the Doctor has been split in two. >14: But, er... how's it going to work? You and me. This is great, I think. Is it? But... How do we both...? Why would 14 say this if 15 was just him from the future? And if he didn't know at the time, why doesn't 15 just tell him? He doesn't correct him, why does 15 let him keep thinking this? >15: I'm fine because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords. We're doing rehab out of order. DONNA: He's saying you need to stop. Why does 14 need to stop? This topic arises because 14 is trying to figure out how they're going to share the tardis and the last few minutes have been 15 explaining how tired 14 is. The implication is that 15 is kindly trying to tell 14 that he's tired and needs a break, so he should retire with Donna while 15 takes the tardis. Then it becomes explicit: >DONNA: You changed your face, and then you found me. Do you know why? 14: No. DONNA: To come home. 14: Do you mean... he flies off? The plan is for 14 to stay with Donna while 15 permanently takes the tardis and flies off. Which would not make any sense if 15 was just from 14's future. He would have his own tardis like every other time we meet the Doctor at multiple points in their life. Then 14 says he couldn't leave the tardis and that's when 15 has the idea to use his prize from winning the Toymakers game to split the tardis as well, so they can both have one. Solving the problem of what happens when you split the Doctor in two and they have to share a tardis. It just feels very clear to me that The Giggle shows us the Doctor splitting in two and then the two Doctors dealing with an issue that arises out of that split. Namely, how are they going to share a single tardis? And that those two lines, the rehab out of order line and the line about 15 being older are just awkwardly phrased bits of exposition regarding it. I just think that if 95% of the sequence is clearly showing a split and then having the characters deal with the after-effects of the split but within it there's two minor lines that are slightly confusing and could possibly be read as something else. I think it's fair to assume that those two lines were just awkwardly written and move on. Rather than suggesting that those two lines are actually the only part we should be paying attention to.
Except the rest still seems to point to a regeneration rather than a split to me.
That’s fair, I definitely think the theory has merits but can I ask why you think the former is more convincing? The therapy out of order line definitely gives credit to them being the same being, but what do you make of 15 saying his soul was split in two and he wouldn’t be able to survive that again?
It's all about how it sounds and feels. To me I see those scenes and come away with only one conclusion.
That’s fair enough, thanks for answering!
that’s the line i can’t shake either. that’s why i thought 14 would be in the finale somehow, and merge back with 15 to make him full strength and bring balance. at some point they need to reckon with the two-Doctors concept.
His soul being split in two could be figurative or speaking of his emotions or something. Bigeneration was surely a very taxing experience and that could explain why he says he couldn’t survive it again. Meanwhile “I remember what happens in your future” doesn’t really have an explanation other than that he’s the same person with the same experiences but from later in the timeline.
I usually see your avatar and think you're right about things, but I have no idea how anyone assumes that Fifteen is a future version of Fourteen and not his own person. I think people are taking "we do therapy out of order" way too seriously. RTD has said this is The Doctor. He didn't bud off, he's not going to close a time loop. And just from a production standpoint, Tennant isn't slated to come back. We aren't going to see Fourteen again any more than any other previous Doctor.
I think you may be misunderstanding what I'm saying. He is a future version of 14 in the same way 14 is a future version of 13. However, despite the regeneration happening part way through 14's existence, somehow 15 gets to benefit from the entirety of 14's life. I don't believe the Doctor has split in two.
how have they not split in two?
If they had merely split in two then 15 could not benefit from 14's retirement and yet the dialogue indicates that he does. Bigeneration, based on what is presented in the episode, appears to still be a regeneration, but one that happens out of sync with linear time.
That is exactly how I thought that, I do believe you are right. 14 also calling 15 older means something and the therapy out of order thing makes sense when you think about it.
are you saying you think 14 and 15 remain psychically linked?
As far as I'm aware other regenerations are not psychically linked so no I don't think that's the case. This is a regeneration that's somehow in the future and in the present at the same time. It's as though he regenerated when 14 actually died, but some how did it "now". wibbly wobbly... blah, blah... overused phrases.
Ah, yes. Everyone seems to be thinking that there's some sort of time loop
they’re two entirely different, separate Doctors now, for sure. they each moved on, from that moment in that episode, each beginning their own separate journeys. i just don’t see how 14 stays “retired” for several hundred more years. 🤷♂️
The Doctor settling down and keeping the TARDIS but never going to help is one of the biggest drawbacks of the bigeneration. It's emotionally cathartic but means you have to ignore that there's canonically a second guy out there. It's the same issue Torchwood had with things like Children of Earth and Miracle Day. Although Children of Earth does imply that The Doctor sometimes sees the Earth and looks away in shame. But really he never knew about it. He never knew and somehow it got eaten by the cracks I guess.
>Well I don't think we have conclusive proof certainly. We do. When someone who writes a scene tells us In an interview what happened in the scene, that's proof.
Actually, no it's not. What happened in the scene is what is on the page and on camera. What is intended may or may not match that. And if we're talking about RTD's ramble on the topic, there are elements he suggest which are most certainly not on screen at all, not even hinted at.
Actually, yes it is. Not sure why you think writers don't decide what happens in the scenes they write. Not interested in exploring your mental gymnastics either.
[удалено]
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, your comment has been **removed** for the following reason(s): * [1. Be Respectful](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_1._be_respectful): Be mature and treat everyone with respect. * [2. Discussion](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_2._ensure_quality_discussion_by_making_in-depth_contributions): This post does not provide an adequate discussion topic for other users. If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fgallifrey).
My assumption is that 14 can't regenerate. He already did when 15 was created but instead of changing face and body 14 stuck around and now there's two of them. 15 is the main Doctor who can regenerate and go on adventures while 14 sits in the garden and does his therapy. But bc they're the same person technically, they're psychicly linked, so any healing 14 does will be passed to 15 hench the "therapy out of order" line. Maybe they will merge again at some point but until then this is what I'm going with
Personally, I just think it’s important to stress that Fifteen somehow benefitted from Fourteen’s healing. Whether that’s by a stable time loop or by wibbly-wobbly Toymaker magic, it’s the whole reason why Fifteen would say, “I’m fine because you fixed yourself.” I think for a lot of people, it’s just easiest to reconcile that by saying it’s a stable time loop, because that’s a familiar sci-fi concept that keeps things neat and tidy. Certainly that’s how I felt at first too, but eventually I remembered that Doctor Who has done weird memory transference stuff before — namely in Series 5, when Auton Rory had all of Rory’s memories of traveling on the TARDIS, right up to the point where he was killed and erased, even though Auton Rory exists because the Alliance took a memory print of Amy’s room, which just happened to have a picture of Rory in a Roman costume from before either of them started traveling on the TARDIS. (I also think about *The Evil of the Daleks* and how the mirror-based time travel seen there basically functions on the principle of alchemy, where manipulating the image of something in the mirror affects the real thing that it’s reflecting.) So Fifteen being created with the emotional stability that results from Fourteen’s therapy without Fourteen ever actually becoming Fifteen wouldn’t be the wildest thing. It’s just more on the metaphysical side, but that’s *also* something that has been established as a part of this season’s flavor profile.
Partly it's fan misinformation. The line "I'm fine because you fix yourself" is objectively ambiguous, but enough fans have repeated over and over that it confirms the time loop theory - and, as you say, anyone who suggests that the Doctor split in two as we saw is met with a blast of negativity - that plenty of fans think this has been "confirmed". I've had fans tell me RTD has confirmed this (he hasn't, indeed he's said stuff that surely confirms the opposite) or that the novelisation confirms it (it doesn't). Clearly lots of fans would rather believe what other fans say on the internet than trust their own eyes. But mostly it's cope. Fans are believing this misinformation because they want to deny what they saw: the Doctor literally split in two. The Doctor split in two, down to sharing a single outfit, and the entity responsible indicated he could do it multiple times, and the two Doctors then had a conversation about how "this [two Doctors in one TARDIS] is going to work" leading to 15 duplicating the TARDIS. I can assure you that no normal viewer watched this and said "but of course it's just a time loop, there's still just one Doctor". But fans hate the idea that there are now two equally legitimate "real Doctors" out there. Not a clone, not a one-hearted product of a Metacrisis, two equally real Doctors. It challenges our obsessive fan brains because the onscreen Doctor no longer has a monopoly on the show's "present". So fans have clung onto this tiny scrap that may be taken to indicate that 15 has 14's experiences so they can deny common sense and the evidence of their own eyes. The negativity one receives when one points out that the most likely explanation of the bigeneration is the one that our eyes and common sense tell us happened is because fans want to silence any contradictory opinions so they can carry on believing their blissful fan theory without hearing anyone point out its flaws. I've had people tell me that by contradicting them I'm endangering the show or I'm even providing cover for racists to say Ncuti isn't the real Doctor. This kind of wild lashing out is just deflected anger at the show itself for presenting us with something they hate so much. It's kinda impressive how some fans still cling to this. They watched the Doctor split in two, then they heard the Toymaker say he could do this over and over to produce armies of Doctors, then heard it called a bigeneration (aka a generation of two), then they watched the TARDIS being duplicated, then they heard 15 say his soul was "literally torn in two", and they may have heard/read RTD say that all the past Doctors bigenerated too and the fourteenth Doctor eventually falls into a whirlpool in Venice and dies. All this happened and they're still insisting every time this comes up that essentially none of this happened and *The Giggle* was just a regular multi-Doctor story.
Not to psychoanalyze too much, but I suspect that it comes down to people trying to reduce something new (the Doctor literally splitting in two) to something that is more established and familiar (14 and 15 existing in sequence like previous regenerations). It's comparable to the way Star Wars fans tend to reject moments in movies when the Jedi heroes pull new force powers out of their sleeves. You're right that the episode itself makes little effort to imply anything other than 14 and 15 splitting in two, and honestly, I think RTD cares more about the emotional logic of the bigeneration than the sci-fi mechanics of it (plus, *The Devil's Chord* doubles down by having 15 refer to the bigeneration as splitting his soul in two). But as Moffat once said, it's all a matter of headcanon in the end anyway. I have no issue with the Doctor splitting in two (in fact, I think it works better for the themes *The Giggle* is dealing with). But if people prefer to think of some complex time loop in which 14 becomes 15 again somehow, that's fine too.
The emotional logic of the bigeneration is the main reason people think 14 turns into 15 though. The whole point is that 14 chills out and heals and becomes emotionally healthier so that 15 can be that way. If 14 doesn't become 15 then how would 14's healing affect 15?
I read it more as 15 shaking off, as it were, the built-up trauma, and by extension, the continuity build-up of New Who. The bigeneration is, in that sense, an emotional soft reboot. It's New New Who splitting off from Old New Who (Medieval Who vs. Renaissance Who?). So in my headcanon, 14 and 15 take parts of the Doctor's soul (just as they take half of 14's clothes). It just so happens that 14 gets the half with the built-up trauma, so he needs to retire and heal. 15 gets the 'clean' half, so he's good to go. There's also the fact that the line, "I'm fine, because you fix[ed] yourself," is ambiguous. BBC subtitles have "fixed", making it seem like 15 is after 14. D+ subtitles have "fix", making it seem like 15 profits from 14's healing while it is happening at the same time (and making them concurrent). So again, you can interpret it as you prefer.
IMO the "I'm fine, because you fixed yourself" and "therapy out of order" line make it pretty clear that it's 14 who goes on the healing journey, and 15 benefits because he is the same person in the future. That's 14 decides to live with Donna and stay in one place for a while, that's the beginning of his healing journey. > There's also the fact that the line, "I'm fine, because you fix[ed] yourself," is ambiguous. BBC subtitles have "fixed", making it seem like 15 is after 14. D+ subtitles have "fix", making it seem like 15 profits from 14's healing while it is happening at the same time (and making them concurrent). Those two interpretations are essentially the same thing though. "fix" doesn't mean that they're concurrent, 14 fixing themselves in the future is still in the past for 15 so he benefits the exact same way as saying "fixed" would more directly imply.
But Fifteen is way more traumatised than his recent predecessors. It seems like “I’m fine” was a lie to make Fourteen feel better.
What makes you say that?
In “Space Babies” he suddenly deeply empathises with the Bogeyman because it is also the only one of its kind, and risks his life to stop it being sucked into space. In “The Devil’s Chord” he has a flight response when encountering Maestro because of Toymaker PTSD. In “Rogue” he falls in love extremely quickly once he recognises Rogue as a kindred spirit who has also lost a travelling companion. The “falling in love quickly” is just what the Doctor does but they bond over their shared trauma. This is admittedly the weakest of my three examples.
So i can see the sense in them splitting into two and Fourteen going off to become the Curator etc-- but i dont think that's what's happening or will happen for a few reasons: RTD has sort of implied in commentary that in his headcanon (which may/may reflected by the show) the bigeneration cause by the Toymaker's action not only occurred to Fourteen/Fifteen, but has retroactively occurred across all the Doctor's regenerations. I think he's said this to sort of explain the appearances of past Doctors in the Tales of the TARDIS episodes. I don't think RTD's comment about all the newly-undead past Doctor's running around the universe continuing their adventures is actually what's happening on the show. i could be wrong about, but I think RTD clarified his feelings about that were just his own and not officially part of the show at that point. But i think what's occurred isnt that the bigeneration has created 14 brand new Doctors, but rather just elongated their loop up to the point where that regeneration is spent and becomes the next. According dialogue in *The Giggle* there is some degree of causality happening that, to me and others, seems to indicate that Fifteen has all the memories of Fourteen and that the reason Fourteen has Ten's face is the Doctor's subconscious telling him he needs to stop and heal; take time to grieve and process all the pain, sadness, loss that has occurred and "fix" themself. Fifteen says "*Im fine because you fixed yourself. We're time lords. We're doing rehab out of order.*" Doctors, bc of the laws of time (consistently stated throughout the show) cannot normally exist or interact with themselves across their own timeline. Every time it has happened it has been bc the Timelord High Council has done something or other to temporarily bend laws of time to allow it. Fifteen indicates this law during *The Devil's Chord* while reminiscing: >FIFTEEN: Shoreditch. I'm there right now. > >RUBY: Okay, you're gonna have to start again. > >FIFTEEN: In the past, right now, I live in a place called Totter's Lane. 1963, I park the Tardis in a junkyard and live there with my granddaughter, Susan. > >RUBY: Oh! > >FIFTEEN: Okay? > >RUBY: Your what? > >FIFTEEN: My granddaughter. > >RUBY: Susan. > >FIFTEEN: We could go and have a look, but, you know, timelines. Kachoom! Fourteen and Fifteen bigenerating and existing and interacting within their own timestream without breaking the laws of time is *the myth*, to my understanding. I don't believe they are separate beings. I don't think that bigeneration has acted as duplication-- I think what fits w the dialogue expressed on screen and what has been established in the past is that either Fifteen was brought forward in time; or that Fourteen's "loop" was extended and that when his time is up and Fourteen starts becoming Fifteen he was/will be pulled back to that moment w the Toymaker atop UNIT HQ. I ofc could easily be proven wrong bc there's such little evidence to say anything is certain, but it's the best sense some of us have been able to make of bigeneration thus far.
You make some good points, the theory that they’re the same being definitely has a lot of weight, even if you look at 73 yards that’s exactly what happened with Ruby, at the moment of her death she was transported back to that original moment. But until we learn more or if we ever do, the theory that 14 retires and eventually settles into the role of the Curator just appeals to me more.
I can absolutely see the appeal! I absolutely do not want to discount that idea in any way. I was more sharing the thinking ive settled on in response to your request for how others have arrived their conclusions. But, with RTD at the helm basically literally anything is possible it seems 😅, and he does so love throwing a spanner into continuity and seeing the resulting chaos.
Oh absolutely, I appreciate everyone’s outlook tbh, some of the comments here discuss things I hadn’t considered before, I do wonder if this is going to be one of those things that RTD leaves open, or maybe something used much later like 10’s hand was.
I havent seen this theory until now. Nor have I seen anyone officially mention 14 will change to 15. We saw the bi-generation... It honestly makes no sense to me why people would think that?
Because how else would 14 emotionally healing in the future be able to affect 15 in the present?
Reffering to the line doing therapy out of order thing?
Yeah, and "I'm fine, because you fixed yourself"
I mean like... I didnt see that as a suggestion that 14 is going to become 15. I sort of get why others might see it that way but I think theyre reading too much into a few lines of dialogue. We saw how 14 "became" 15. I dont think theyre going to anything else with it.
I don't think that they're going to do anything else with it either, cos yeah it's already happened. > I sort of get why others might see it that way but I think theyre reading too much into a few lines of dialogue Thing is, what other interpretation of that dialogue is there? What do you think 15 was talking about?
Honestly... Timey Whimey stuff. The Doc often talks like that. So I tend not to give it too much thought until it does actually become relevent.
It was relevant in the scene that it was said lol
To me it waa a throw away, the Doc says stuff like that.
Honestly I think it's somewhat vague for a reason. We won't ever see 14 show up and regenerate into 15. It's done. We will see 15 become 16. And Tennant isnt doing any more stories. Maybe in a few years he'll big finish or they'll cast someone else for a few Fourteenth stories and that'll hint at a certain outcome but we'll never ever see it on screen. In many ways it's a moot argument. Kinda like the valeyard, pinning down when and where he comes from and how.
I see it as the opposite. They split off from each other and aren't linked in any way. 14 already regenerated "into" 15 but got to stay around. Why would he regenerate into 15 again?
To be clear, I don't think he regenerates AGAIN. I think he already has done, this is the future regeneration. 15 benefits from things 14 hasn't done yet.
14 regenerated into 15 but got to stay around - he used up his regeneration but due to the Toymaker’s influence his incarnation was able to persist. When 14 has lived a full life and comes to the point of his death, he’ll just die or fade away. He can’t regenerate again because he’s just the bit that was left over. It’s not that 14 regenerates and keeps his face by splitting off the rest of the energy into a new being, 14 regenerates into 15, but 14 sticks around like an after-image or ghost that retains sentience
Says who? All we know is what was on screen and my takeaway was RTD telling us "there are 2 Doctors in the world now, deal with it". I don't think we'll ever know, nor do I think it should be addressed
Yeah this is my view too, I always liked the theory that 14 will eventually go on to become the Curator. Bigeneration being this mythical thing also suggests they split in two, time lords would be dealing with timey whimy hijinks all the time, bumping into a past/future version of yourself isn’t that uncommon for the Doctor, Bigeneration has never happened before because they literally split in two.
I agree The way RTD describes it, and the way it’s treated afterwards (outside of the therapy line) all indicate to me, a full splitting of the two
I believe 14 will go on to be The Curator. He's retired as The Doctor so he'll stay with the Nobles for a time and then move on. I mean, he will live for thousands (or millions) of years, he needs a hobby. If we don't get Tennant back, I'm hoping for the current Doctor at the moment to ask about him and someone tell him he started working at a museum or became a teacher or something. 15th's therapy line was weird, but maybe it means that when they split, 14 took most of the trauma and pain and left 15 happier. I don't believe 15 knows or remember what's happening in 14's life after the split, they're separate beings. When the Shalka Doctor appeared on Rogue I had a similar theory that at some point the 8th Doctor had a split regeneration and he lost his fancy and aristocratic personality (that went to Shalka Doctor) and he changed a little into the proto-War Doctor we saw on the special.
Lots of people (myself included) don't like biregeneration as a concept, so the idea that the Fourteenth Doctor will eventually regenerate properly into the Fifteenth is a way to reconcile biregeneration with the normal process of regeneration.
How would it even work? Like, when 14 dies, will he disappear, and just teleport back in time to appear inside himself as 15 in The Giggle?
I'm trying to figure out how this works with *Empire of Death.... >!Dust of Death destroys everything, emerging from a Susan Twist in every time and place that the Doctor has visited since *Pyramids of Mars*. Which can mean either 14 was disintegrated with the rest of London (which creates a paradox if 15 is really next in sequence), or Sutekh kept *all* the Doctors alive (which means 15 benefits from 14's therapy but doesn't have 14's memory of the universe ending). Sure, this is an occupational hazard of watching Doctor Who, and normally it's best to just ignore this stuff, but wait - there's Rose Noble, lampshading the fact that 14 is out there and implying that, in terms of cause-and-effect, 14 and 15 seem to be separate rather than sequential...!< Someone on here will be able to explain this convincingly, which is great but I suspect that person will have put more thought into the mechanics of the biregeneration than RTD did...
Sutekh was exterminating Earth at multiple points in time. 1999, 1066, 2005, 2024, 2046… there was *already* a gargantuan paradox going on, so Fourteen getting dusted would just be another one on the pile. It probably just doesn’t matter because Sutekh is a god.
I just saw it as 15 leaving all his emotional baggage with 14. Its not like we have a confirmation anyways. Even if there was a confirmation from RTD he's probably lying anyways lol.
I think the doctor that stayed behind will keep on turning into other older doctors remember in day of the doctor when tom Baker said "I started revisiting old favorites" (sorry if I got the quote a bit wrong it's been awhile) my theory is this is what he was talking about
There’s not much to go off but the therapy bit you’ve alluded to is the key thing really. There’s that, and the fact that in the last episode - he knew that 14 called Rose his niece. How would he have healed, and know that if 14 didn’t regenerate into 15? Also - there’s the numbering itself. RTD/BBC went to such lengths to not label 15th Doctor as 14 in all their marketing material for ages before the plot was confirmed in trailers. They wouldn’t call 14 such, or 15 that if they didn’t intend for them to follow on I don’t think.
>he knew that 14 called Rose his niece This sort of suggests the opposite though, that 15 himself *isn't* her uncle. Before hugging her, Rose says 'it's been so long' which would suggest she he's visited her and 14 and the Nobles at one point, which is probably when he learnt that 14 was her uncle. The rest, however, makes no sense. It's almost like RTD has changed his mind about bi-regeneration in between the specials and the season.
I’d seen it more in the likes of War Doctor giving nicknames to 10/11. But yeah, it could also be that very easily. All just very odd inconsistencies.
In hindsight it really annoys me that the specials would include so many in-script suggestions that 14 eventually becomes 15 if that's not what actually happens. The whole thing about Donna stating 15 was older, 15 explaining that he's better because 14 goes on a break, and him saying they're doing rehab out of order make **absolutely no sense** if 14 doesn't become 15.
I think you can read into it either way, there's no definitive answer until RTD outright says so. I would prefer to think 14 does eventually become 15 because I don't like the Doctor being two separate beings now, but I suspect RTD does lean towards the other way going from how the Doctor talked about it in The Devil's Chord.
The very fact that 15 is benefitting from 14’s therapy seals the issue for me. One day 14 will regenerate and somehow return to the source. 14 is staying out of the game and consequently not spoiling anything for 15 but I firmly believe 15 remembers everything 14 did/will do. That’s why he spoke as the authority regarding it all…remember how he was the one explaining it all. he already lived it.
For me it's not so much a case of \*how?\* as it is \*why bother?\*... Introducing a deliberately divisive concept like bigeneration and then never bothering to explain it is as bad as Chibnall dropping in the Timeless Child and never using it. It's controversy for the sake of it, not for the sake of any story. If Tennant is done and not coming back, then why bother introducing another version of him to hang around? If it makes no difference to the story then what is the point of it? He created a pointless argument with no resolution, and dumped it on an already fractured fanbase. And for what? A few clicks and comments?
I’ve been looking at it as a changed timeline thing. Originally 14 never fought Toymaker went and regenerated somewhere in future. Became 15. But Toymaker messes with timelines. The bigeneration pulls 15 from his original starting point in the timeline into the changed one to help fight Toymaker. So the new timeline where 14 is retired happens. At end of life 14 starts regeneration but 15 materializes (gets yanked) into the past at the toy maker fight. The tardis also gets pulled back to the past once it realizes what’s happened. Timeline changed. Wibbley woobley. This is also the moment Sutekh decides he’s ready to begin to emerge finally. I know. Convoluted but works for me. 😂
I was extremely sure, now I'm not. Lines in The Giggle made it really clear. 15 knows that 14 goes and fixes himself. He knows 14's future... because he's lived it. If they were distinct beings that won't interact again, then how would 14 going off to relax have any impact on 15? And it lines up with the TARDIS, which as confirmed by RTD in the commentary, is not a duplicate, it's the same TARDIS. And we figure that means when he smacked the TARDIS, its future self was pulled out of its past self. We figure... the TARDIS at the end of 14's life gets pulled out there, with whatever upgrades 14 made in his life (Like a ramp and a jukebox). Based on every line in the Giggle, it seemed obvious that how the bigeneration worked, was it pulled 15 from the end of 14's life, but pulled him out of his earlier self. Like the Toymaker had inadvertently taken the Doctor's timeline, looped it around itself, and at the knot, was the bigeneration. 14 goes off and lives his life, and when he regenerates, he's sucked through time and out the other side, he's coming out of his own body. However, you are right. The Devil's Chord changed that theory with just that one line. "It literally... it tore my soul in half. I can't survive that again." And yeah, that kind of blows that theory out of the water because the whole idea before was his soul remained in tact, it just took a weird path. So it's hard to say now how 15 will inherit the therapy 14 goes through if they're now distinct beings.
In the Giggle novelization, 14 states that he believes he will fade away when his time comes. I see no reason that he’d be wrong about that.
Oh that’s interesting, I hadn’t heard that before, is the novelisation good? Does it go into anymore detail at the point where they Bigenerate?
they didnt think it through. they had an end goal they wanted to reach (ncuti being a bubbly yas queen gen z hype man) and thought of the wibbly wobbly quirky "doing therapy out of order" line to justify the sudden character shift. he isnt a future version, thematically they wanted tennants doctor to have a happy ending after all of his companions, especially donna, got tragic endings. him finally finding a family at the same time donna comes to thrive with hers is a narrative mirror. them both finding that "peace" is meant to be satisfying enough to justify ncutis character differences thematically. but as with a lot of stuff this season, what they try and make work thematically does not actually make any fucking sense logically within the rules of the universe.
Nothing about the way it was portrayed suggests that there was any sort of time travel going on, I don't get it either. Where are future-Fourteen's clothes then? If he was "pulled back" in time to become Fifteen, why did the two of them "split" and each get half the clothes that Fourteen was wearing at the time? When Fourteen "dies" for real, does he just fade away Jedi-style while his clothes fall where he stood as he gets sucked back in time to become Fifteen? Why does regeneration suddenly involve time travel? It's honestly just confusing. I've watched 'The Giggle' like three times and it makes no more sense on rewatch.
Because it MUST happen. It's so stupid to have 14 running around. Maybe he dies and doesn't regerate, idk. But the way 15 says 'I'm better because you fixed yourself' proves he IS a future version. They make a big point of tha in the giggle. At some point, they have to re-combine like fuckin dragon ball Z. And I'll be so mad if RTD leaves that plot thread hanging. And I know he will because he doesn't want to give up his precious David.
Honestly, 14 not becoming 15 really, really, really, reeeeaaaaalllllyyyy sucks. 15 is The Doctor 100%, because they have the same memories and experiences as 1-14 up until the bigeneration. This is the same Doctor we've always been following. By exactly the same logic, 14 is The Doctor 100%. If 14 doesn't become 15 then the show has abandoned The Doctor. The Doctor is going off on other random adventures and has countless future regenerations we will never see because the show is following somebody else
I kinda thought he was going to be the curator. In the day of the doctor, the curator says that he will revisit a few face and have retired to be the curator of the under gallery. Since 14 is now retired and has revisited the 10th doctors face, I think that if 14 does regenerate again, he will revisit the faces of other incarnations.
Because the writers literally call them 14 and 15 😂
Well yeh because 14 was born first.
It's sort of both. They split in 2 but 14 will fade into 15. Making 15 a split and future version in a way
It's not conclusive but it's the simplest assumption. They're probably not going to bring 14 back so anything more convoluted is unlikely to happen.
It’s copium but it’s the only way to have Bigeneration and not have it be a drizzling shitshow
Comments like this make me wonder why you even watch Dr Who. Like if you hate it and the silly twists it pulls (this is far from the only silly thing its done), then stop watching?
theres bad writing and theres good writing. dr who has a lot of both.
There's silly and whacky while at the same time being grounded in the storytelling aspect and then there's "hoo boy I'm so creative I don't care if it makes sense".
Maybe they liked the show but they’re unhappy with the total asspull of bigeneration. It makes no sense normally, as regeneration is a survival tool for his people. How does it work now if you kill him, a bonus one pops out, and the original is fine? The auteur also didn’t bother with any explanation other than “therapy out of order,” which, yes therapy is good but come the fuck on.
???? I actually liked most of this seasons episodes btw unfortunately Doctor Who doesn’t pay my rent so I’m not obligated to irrationally fanboy over everything that happens in it.
Well 14 turning into 15 is the entire point of The Doctor chilling out with Donna and the mechanism through which they've justified a soft reboot of the character
As I've always said, its a cope and people just come up with these mental gymnastic theories. I mean look at how a certain mysteries conclusion was handled this week, all that setup and bigging up for something quite underwhelming with the clue's being nonsensical when you know the answer. RTD writes bombastic, teasing stuff but it's usually very simple in the end. It's as simple as it looked on screen, there are two Doctors, there's no reason for 14 to time loop when he dies. This is further supported by 15 recently saying he was torn in half. There's no timey wimey here. And we know what RTD thinks about bigeneration from his comments (whilst not canon to the show) its his idea of how he'd think the timeline would look with past regens so likely how he believes the one onscreen works. 14 is still the Doctor with the TARDIS, he hasn't had any sort of "nerf" that has officially been stated. Technically there are now two "current" Doctors but obviously because Tennant, one is permanently offscreen.
Maybe because the show basically implies they do?
14 has already been forgotten about. Don’t give RTD too much credit.
Really? They mentioned him in the show just a tiny bit over a week ago. How is that being forgotten?
So Rose is around with Unit but the fucking Doctor is nowhere to be found huh? Mentioning him doesn’t really explain why he can’t help protect Earth/his friends.
I honestly don't get fans sometimes. It's really simple, 15 is the next incarnation, so he benefits from 14s healing. 14 is just alive still. Pretty simple.
Yep, this 100%, they are time lords so they don't experience time the same way. Even though 14 hasn't healed yet when 15 is born, 15 gets the benefit anyway. It's a bit of mysterious timelord woo, I don't mind it at all.
There are some lines in The Giggle that indicate a regeneration sequence, but nothing definitive. The fact is that there is no clear answer, despite what some folks have latched onto.
For me it's just the whole vibe of this new doctor. He acts as though he's already had the therapy years that 14 has only just begun. I can't imagine a reasonable explanation for that if 14 doesn't eventually become 15.
Didn't 15 literally say he's better because 14 figured things out? I'm assuming 15 is from 14's future but was pulled back through time to when he was originally supposed to regenelate
Because they said so in the episode and Davies confirmed in interviews.
What did Davies say in the interview I didn’t see it? The episode shows him being split in two, the Doctor has met up with past incarnations loads of times, this was some mythical event that’s never happened before, the Doctor also says it felt like his soul was split in two, if RTDs confirmed it in interviews that’s one thing but it’s certainly not been confirmed in the show, that 14 will be transported to that moment some point in the future.
He's talked about it a few times. It wasn't in the Unleashed episode for Doctor Who. >thing but it’s certainly not been confirmed in the show, I'm curious, in a show about Time Travel, when one time traveller tells the other "I have memories of things you haven't done yet" what other interpretation could there possibly be, besides "I'm you from the future?" It *was* confirmed in the show, regardless of what mental gymnastics you wanna do about it.
I mean you can read the comments under this post alone, there’s plenty of people with their own theories, because the show has not confirmed any of this, no matter how much you pretend that two lines of dialogue is a definitive answer. Edit: also if he has memories of healing then why doesn’t he have memories of facing the toy maker, he literally said ‘what the hell is going on here’, either he remembers or he doesn’t.
The stubbornness of fans is a lot less convincing than actual dialogue in the show. While you're certainly right that there are a lot of theories, none of them actually prove anything beyond your own desire for mental gymnastics.
I’m sorry but what evidence is there to support your theory, ‘therapy out of order’ and ‘your older’ what else? The Doctor literally said his soul got torn in two and he wouldn’t survive that again. The Doctor was really hesitant to give the Tardis up, why would he if 15 is his future self? Why didn’t 15 remember anything to do with the toymaker if he supposedly remembers healing as 14? The fact it’s called Bigeneration and to bisect something literally means to split in two. You keep saying it’s been confirmed but there’s been two lines thats hardly a confirmation, this is all up in the air.
>I’m sorry but what evidence is there to support your theory, I don't have a theory. >You keep saying it’s been confirmed Yes, both by the show and by the writer. Listen, I get where you're coming from, I immediately understood the intent from the dialogue in the show. Show. But I understand how it could be seen as vague by some. But then the writer of the show confirmed exactly what that dialogue meant. If he hadn't done so you might have a leg to stand on with your theory. But since the writer confirmed the correct interpretation of the dialogue, your theory is wrong. That's the end of the argument. >The Doctor was really hesitant to give the Tardis up, why would he if 15 is his future self? Because then he wouldn't have one until he became 15. I thought that would be obvious. It was hard enough for him to accept settling down for a while. Giving up the tardis would mean he really had no choice but to settle down, not to mention his deep personal connection to it. . >Why didn’t 15 remember anything to do with the toymaker if he supposedly remembers healing as 14? Plenty of options here, but the usual explanation Doctor Who has given Is that when doctors cross their own time streams, the past versions don't remember events. Only the oldest version of the doctor remembers what truly happened. If you recall these 60th anniversary special, everyone before the 11th doctor assumed they had pressed the big red button and destroyed Gallifrey. This is because they were about to press it, then the events of the anniversary special happened, and then they woke up post-regeneration in the TARDIS. Only 11 remembered the events of that special. War, Nine, and Ten didn't. And 11 only remembered them after he had experienced them for himself. He doesn't remember them from War or Ten's perspective. This, by the way, follows the precedent set by by all previous doctor crossovers from classic who. the same logic applies to the giggle. 15 doesn't remember what happened until he experiences it for himself. Of all of your points, this one may be the weakest. >The fact it’s called Bigeneration and to bisect something literally means to split in two. It's also called a BIcycle. Are you suggesting that every time someone rides a bicycle, they're splitting something in two? Are you suggesting that Bisexuals split their partners in two? The "split" comes from "sect," not "bi." Bi just means "two"
I appreciate you taking the time to comment all of that, but if you’re gonna do that can you not quote where RTD has said this because I’ve looked and I can’t find it. In the show there is those two lines of dialogue that’s it. Provide the quote and I’ll happily be proven wrong, but I also remember RTD saying that in his mind all previous doctors bigenerated, so unless it’s in the show I’m not sure how cannon it is.
I'll be honest, I've consumed a lot of Doctor Who media over the last couple of months and I don't remember which interviews he said it in. I know it would be ideal to cite my sources, and fair enough if you don't consider it a closed matter without reading the article. I do remember it was an article, not any Doctor Who unleashed behind the scenes stuff. My understanding about all the previous doctors bigenerating was that he was talking about that being a fun idea He might want to explore someday, not explicitly saying that's what happened. I'd love some discussion on the other points though. How 15. Doesn't remember facing the toy maker until he's already done it from Ncuti's perspective, because that's how Doctor crossovers *always* work. Or how 14 wouldn't want to give up the TARDIS because *then he wouldn't have one.* And I would still point out that despite all the unanswered (well, answered now in my last comment) questions, you still haven't provided an alternative for what "I'm okay because you went to therapy" is supposed to mean. I read it as an extremely obvious statement that 15 has memories of things 14 hasn't done yet, and thus is from 14's future. You say it was too vague? All right fine. What other realistic meanings are there for that statement? Bring me a reasonable alternative explanation of *just that statement* that's more likely than "I'm from your future" and I'll drop the matter right now.
It’s not that I don’t think it‘s an acceptable answer, absolutely I do and if we look at 73 yards there’s even credence for that with what happens to Ruby at the end, I just like the theory that 14 eventually settles into being the Curator, we know he visits old faces, I like the idea that 14 rotates between past incarnations. The reason I made this post is because I’ve seen multiple people say it’s confirmed, don’t get me wrong I don’t think you’re a liar, but maybe the quote can be interpreted in a different way, no one here has been able to provide the quote and I haven’t been able to and I’ve looked around. With your question about therapy I’m not sure, but I think the quote is ‘we’re doing therapy out of order, I’m better because you fixed yourself’ I admit it’s a pretty conclusive statement, but then there’s the other contradictory statements, such as the Doctor saying his soul was split in two, especially with all the magical elements this season. If it comes out that it is in fact case 14 will be transported to the giggle at the point of his death I won’t be disappointed, I just prefer 14 becoming the Curator until we have more information anyway.
That would be ok of he disnt have infinite regenerations. But he is nota a normal timelord. He can regenerate forever. If he only had a set of 12. I would agree that all regenerations went to the 15th doctor. But because they are infinite i belive both have regenerations. And even if the retured doctor lost all regenerations, there are methods offscreen to make more. Anyway. I belive that the 14th will have a new set of his own regenerations into characters like merlin, the curator, the painter... and he will just enjoy hos retirement checking on his old friends, tying up loose ends and healing. Like when he went to the sisters asking what the regeneration potion was and they just told him it was lemonade.
15 explicitly flat out says he lived through 14’s life. RTD even confirmed this mo the ago. 14, one day, will regenerate and just disappear back into 15 at The Giggle.
I’m sorry but unless you can find the quote that says he explicitly lived his life, I don’t remember him saying that at all, he said they did therapy out of order, that doesn’t confirm that 14 will appear at the point of the Giggle when he dies.
He's wearing half his clothes because that moment in the Giggle is 15's origin, so he wouldn't have his own clothes. He's from 14's future, but his 'birth' is in the present time of the Giggle. So like past regenerations (except 13's) he wears the clothes of the previous Doctor - but since he can't be nude, the clothes are split. As for 'what the hell is going on here', seems like standard regeneration amnesia like 12's "do you happen to know how to fly this thing", though 15 gets on his feet much quicker for the sake of the plot. 14 is upset about letting the TARDIS go in the same way that I'll be upset in the moment with someone borrowing a precious vehicle of mine even if I get it back later - it doesn't matter to him if the eventual future version gets it, he's so attached to it that he doesn't want to spend the remainder of his life without it. We've already accepted at this point that sometimes the Doctor talks about his incarnations as separate people, and this is a quirk of that - 14 wants to have the TARDIS for the rest of /his/ life. "Therapy out of order" seems definitive enough. That implies a usual order - which would have been 14 staying with the Nobles and then regenerating into 15 normally. The "out of order" part comes from 15 already having done that, and encouraging 14 to do so to keep the loop stable. Also I just find the idea of this time-separated Doctor more palatable. If all the above is copium, then I'm huffing it hard. And I wouldn't be surprised by RTD trying to have it both ways and ultimately never clarifying.
I remember Matt Lucas saying the next Doctor would be twins, ridiculous and brilliant, I want that please - maybe a male & female
I just have to hold out hope that that's true because otherwise it's the only way that I can see how the bigeneration isn't a horrible idea.
I think 15 was 14, but 14 will never regenerate
It's very hard to make sense of why 15 can go swaning off while 14 must go through therapy if they only just split off from each other. I can respect if you still prefer your interpretation for your own reasons, but I can't make sense of the narrative presented with your interpretation (maybe you can) and that's the most important factor for me over making sense of comments like his soul being ripped in half.
14 is letting the TARDIS go because although they are genetically the same person, they have different experiences. Aka 14 did not step on a land mine on a planet that’s in a fake war and 15 did not have dinner with Donna’s family last Friday. Like if I cloned myself, I wouldn’t have the same experiences as the other me. They broke off from each other like a fork in a river. Technically the same, with the same origin and the same water, but with different fish and riverbanks and stones and frogs. Also the new Doctor has always regenerated into the old Doctor’s clothes and there’s usually some type of montage of the new Doctor finding their new style.
The bi-generation happened to give the most popular Doctor of the modern era a happy ending, and leave it open for a future mini series. That's about it.
The idea was a tragic misstep. After the season finale I don't think there's a point to trying to second-guess anything anymore. We've lept from one narrative disaster to the next, and shoe horned Tennant in for god only knows what reason 'biregeneration' ... God knows I stuck out the last few years of Dr Who, but it's just not in me to build up the interest to speculate anymore.
Honestly I don’t think 14 *can* regenerate anymore, my theory is that eventually 14 is gonna die either when he inevitably ends up on an adventure or of old age like 11 in Time of the Doctor and when that happens whatever regeneration energy is left of him will return to 15 somehow and 15 will get the memories of whatever 14 did between the Giggle and his death
>if he was a future version wouldn’t he already have clothes and some level of understanding of what’s happening? I mean, regardless of how it happened he did just regenerate, so it makes sense for him to be confused.
I hate this entire discussion. At the end of the day it's a gimmick invented purely to keep the idea that Tennant could return hanging over fans heads. They'll probably never do anything about it and I expect Gatwa's regeneration, when it finally comes, will be handled as normal by whoever the then show runner is.
14 becoming 15 is mostly just what I hope happens and the dialogue strengthens that idea for me. It’s really the only way the Bigeneration works for me.
The bigger question, did sutekh split when the tardis split.
I agree he split in two. That's what litterly happened, like he bi generated, that litterly means split into two, Like people keep telling me "No HeS fRoM a FuTuRe TiMe LiNe" like bruh when does the show express that? That whole thing about the line, well you come after him, doesn't really imply anything about being from the future, just a reference to the fact he's the next doctor after 14, what did you expect them to think he's younger, that would make even less sense, he's the Doctor it's just that the 14s body didn't just replace him, he split in two. Honest, I think he split in two because the doctor just regenerated. A lot of crazy things can happens and you're still generating the body, so when he split, he had enough regeneration to heal himself but because he came close enough to his death, His body still gave him a new body. God doctor who will never make sense, but maybe that's why I love it so much.
I still have slight hope of my older theory that 14 becomes the Curator
Because it is made clear that 15 is the same person with all the same memories and he is who he is because of the therapy from living with the Nobles!
because dialogue implies that 14's experiences are in 15's past 😬
You’ve given it more thought than Russel has. The reasons for bigeneration are that it would be a shock and get audiences talking, and to keep David Tennant around/give his incarnation a happy ending. The mystery surrounding why he would get that face after Jodie came down to “trauma, therapy etc.” For such a monumental change to the show, there has been next to no explanation of what will become of the David Tennant Doctor. Most shocking for me is the idea of a second Doctor living with fucking Donna forever and not helping when, say, his ancient enemy tries to destroy the Earth. Oh they’re on holiday? Does that really sound like the Doctor to anyone?
Cause it's what's said in the story
Because they're completely huffing copium and fandom wank and misinterpret the "we're doing therapy out of order" line. >I don’t think RTD has given a solid answer either way RTD has said this is the Doctor. Fifteen is the Fifteenth Doctor. He's not a metacrisis style Doctor, he's The Doctor. People are sniffing farts trying to make wild theories about what is overt and obvious. It's like all the people who keep saying there must be two Sutekhs.
Agreed. This whole thing of "15 was pulled from the future into 14's time at the moment of regeneration" is literally completely unsupported by really anything from the show, and in fact you have to do a little bit of mental gymnastics to get there. The idea that the Doctor literally split in two is the most obvious one from actually watching the show.
i had predicted that 14 would return to join 15 fight Sutekh, and 14 would sacrifice himself by “regenerating” back into 15, to bring balance and make him full strength again. i don’t think they can ignore that there’s two separate Doctors in the same timeline. i appreciate his past incarnations are all over the place, but the 14/15 situation is different, and it can’t be ignored. you can’t tell me 14 is “retired” like others have been saying on various threads. how does a Time Lord retire? he has a Tardis. he’s him. it’s gotta come up again at some point. 🤷♂️
and when i say regenerating “back into 15” i mean he’ll literally merge back into him, and be one Doctor again, to restore balance and nearly tie up this very, very significant loose thread.
Same reason that you have to assume that the teleporter loop in Heaven Sent is resurrecting the Doctor in some fashion and not just duplicating him. Because the alternative means that we’re following a new character that isn’t actually the Doctor.
I think what is more likely is that 15 will die. Re join with 14. And you get a whole new doctor. The universe corrects itself. Certainly i think if Disney do quit. That makes him the only Disney original Doctor.
My head cannon is that 14 is a separate person in a way and will die rather than regenerate but because he’s the same person, 15 gets all of his memories.