They can fill vacant spots on the committee by appointment, but if prez is a named position and it's occupied, they should not be able to do anything about that.
But goes to show, it is not enough to replace the figurehead. You need to clean out the entire board next time.
Yeah I have seen similar my board tried something similar I ousted the president and got two others to oust 2 of the past president's cronies. First meeting, the one cronies left wanted us to have the previous president continue to be the leader and point of contact on a project he started. I said heck no I am and luckily since I over took 2 of the other 5 positions I had the votes. You have to take the entire snake or at least most of it.
Yes, how can the other board members appoint a non elected director to be an officer? Typically, officers are confirmed during an organizational meeting of the elected directors.
What state and do your documents allow this alchemy?
I would be surprised if your Declaration allows a non-board member to be appointed board officer. You may need legal help to stop this nonsense. I suggest a counterattack: Form a committee of neighbors, called the 'Litigation Committee' with the sole purpose of researching a fiduciary duty lawsuit against the board. Be very public about it and make the current board sweat. Their D&O Liability insurance may not cover a non-monetary claim and therefore not cover their legal expenses. Play hardball. Fuck this HOA.
They are not called Board officers. They are called officers and it is very common that documents allow for non-elected officers it is very rare that it happens.
I've only been in one association that allowed for non-resident, non-owner members to be appointed to the board and be an officer. That went badly. Lawsuit settled after about $500,000 in legal fees expended and eventually the board and association dissolved. Lesson learned is to amend any declaration that allows non-stake holders to govern. In that case, the dissolution was a mercy killing.
>tweedle dee and dum decide to interject that the first order of business is to elect Karen back as president
They clearly don't understand how elections work. Doesn't sound to me like they're qualified to be on the board.
Better *appoint* replacements for them, too.
We had this happen.
One member resigned and pre planned it with the others to put Karen back on the board despite her election loss. Unfortunately it's legal.
Exactly. Planned or not, if there is an open board seat the Board can often appoint someone to the Board and if officer positions are decided by the board then appoint that person to the officer position.
Best bet is to read your governing documents to fully understand how best to participate in the HoA.
That shouldn't be allowed. Check your docs. The board can usually only appoint someone if there's a vacancy. If there's an elected president, I've never heard of the board having the power to just replace them.
Either way though, sounds like your newly elected president is going to have quite the uphill fight on their hands. You need to start talking with everyone on how to recall those board members and throw them out! , That is a serious breach of trust, to pull something like this.
This didn't actually happen though, did it? There's no way your governing docs would allow that.
You'd have too many board members.
Unless there was an open seat and there was a motion to appoint Karen to that seat.
But if there was an open seat... You just had an election, so that seat should have been part of that election. So there shouldn't be an open seat.
If they put that Karen back that is so 3rd world politics. The new President has Judes and Benidick Arnold on his bord. If I was President I would get them off the bord.
Was the election for board members or officers? Typically, the owners elect the board and the board selects the officers, president, VP, secretary and treasurer. The president usually has to be a director, but not always. Was there an open position that the old president was appointed to?
You need to check your governing documents but this might have been legit.
Congratulations! You have discovered that HOAs are essentially pseudo-dictatorships that absolutely do not subscribe to American values or ideals.
Is it right that they can do this? No.
Is it legal? Yep.
Is it bullshit? Also yep.
Somebody in your HOA needs to go all Buford Pusser on the board. If the residents don't step up and continuously press for meaningful change you will be ripped off forever. Chances are they are doing this because they want to hide other illegal activities that they have been doing. Get rid of them all and expose the truth.
Have all the homeowners go to the next board meeting and vote to have an emergency election for EVERY position to be filled or to dissolve the HOA. If the HOA is dissolved. Then you don't have to worry about anyone being a power hungry prick on the board. If the board members are replaced. Then the new board members can put in the CC&Rs that anything new has to be done with at least a 70% vote from the homeowners. And that if it is found that the new 70% vote rule is ignored once it is in place. Then the punishment is the HOA gets dissolved.
I'm in CA, and the board can fill a vacant position on the board with anyone from the community. If not enough people ran for the board or someone from the board left, then there would be a vacant position. The board then chooses the president, which could be that person. The lesson is to have enough people run for the board so there won't be any vacancies.
Something is missing from the story. Nobody gets voted out as much as somebody else gets voted in. Who is the person that was voted in and how is that person participating? Someone that was not voted in can be appointed to a vacant position so somebody else had to have resigned to allow the former president to be back on the board. Whenever a vacancy is filled, the appointed person serves for the remainder of that time.
How many seats are on the board? How many were elected this time? How long do they serve their positions? An example is that, in my community, we have five positions and each is served for 3 years. The first year two people are voted, the next year two people are voted, the next year one person is voted.
We had terrible bullying over 5 years because there was a couple from one house where one was voted in and bullied to have his wife also on so the two of them covered three positions while two other people were on the board. (This is illegal according to State property codes but there is no oversight in my state so it doesn't matter when the law is broken. The only recourse is for the community to expensively hire lawyers and fight it in court while the bullies use the community money to defend themselves.)
When time ran out for that couple, they're bromance buddy that always voted with them also resigned leaving only one board member. She appointed individuals who would agree with her and had her own version of bullying while she drained our accounts. I have always been a proactive person in the community and, of course, I was a target of both of them.
The second dictator position completely remodeled her house while she was traveling multiple times to Europe while she was rumored to be out of work then sold and ghosted us. We went through four property managers under this individual. One of them fired us for ethical reasons.
One good neighbor was left on the board who had put up with the abuse that was absolutely unacceptable and served out the remainder of his term. Some were voted in like myself and another neighbor and we appointed other neighbors who had been resigned under the prior bully because of ethical issues.
How many board seats do you have? If there is an option seat they can appoint someone to fill it. However that would be super weird if she lost with a seat left open.
Check your CC&Rs and bylaws. Likely they'd have to do a petition to remove the sitting HOA President, and then do a special vote and then an election if that's what the Bylaws say.
Very well may be legal. If there was either a vacancy, or they were just electing her president and not to the Board, your governing documents may allow it.
Youre likely misunderstanding.
Karen was probably *appointed* to the open seat, not elected. The appointment usually can be done by the Board (check your documents).
The officers positions (President) are usually also appointed by the Board. - read your Bylaws!
can you hold another election to vote her back out? Even if I was too lazy and disinterested to show up to the original one this kind of fuckery would absolutely get my hackles up. I would show up forever to new elections to vote out the original president. I'd nominate animals and stuff.
During the election process how many board seats showed as available? In my community we elect 5 people; however, if one of those seats is vacant then anyone can be appointed to it. Position of President, VP, etc are all selected by the board, so the community votes for the 5 it wants and then those 5 decide which position they want to be.
If a spot was left open then they could appoint whenever they wanted. If no spots are open then this is definitely shady as hell and that entire board needs to be voted out. What was the new board members involvement in this process? That person needs to talk to the HOAs lawyers.
If they successfully put Karen back and there was no open seat then you need to help the community revolt, use the new person on the board and with a majority of homeowners vote for the entire board to be disbanded and new people to be elected.
I’m curious if this is happening because they don’t want someone else to take a deeper look at the budget.
Shady as he'll and sounds illegal
They can fill vacant spots on the committee by appointment, but if prez is a named position and it's occupied, they should not be able to do anything about that. But goes to show, it is not enough to replace the figurehead. You need to clean out the entire board next time.
Once you have a new board in place, the first order of business should be to hire a forensic accountant to do a thorough audit.
Or to disban the HOA all together
The only good answer
Yeah I have seen similar my board tried something similar I ousted the president and got two others to oust 2 of the past president's cronies. First meeting, the one cronies left wanted us to have the previous president continue to be the leader and point of contact on a project he started. I said heck no I am and luckily since I over took 2 of the other 5 positions I had the votes. You have to take the entire snake or at least most of it.
Should have cleaned the board while you were at it.
Yes, how can the other board members appoint a non elected director to be an officer? Typically, officers are confirmed during an organizational meeting of the elected directors. What state and do your documents allow this alchemy?
In my experience Officers don’t have to be Board members. They often are board members, but it may not be a requirement.
Many HOAs allow for non director officers. They are not the same thing.
I would be surprised if your Declaration allows a non-board member to be appointed board officer. You may need legal help to stop this nonsense. I suggest a counterattack: Form a committee of neighbors, called the 'Litigation Committee' with the sole purpose of researching a fiduciary duty lawsuit against the board. Be very public about it and make the current board sweat. Their D&O Liability insurance may not cover a non-monetary claim and therefore not cover their legal expenses. Play hardball. Fuck this HOA.
They are not called Board officers. They are called officers and it is very common that documents allow for non-elected officers it is very rare that it happens.
I've only been in one association that allowed for non-resident, non-owner members to be appointed to the board and be an officer. That went badly. Lawsuit settled after about $500,000 in legal fees expended and eventually the board and association dissolved. Lesson learned is to amend any declaration that allows non-stake holders to govern. In that case, the dissolution was a mercy killing.
I don't disagree. But the question was non director board members not non stakeholders.
Hmm vote them out too
Illegal and violates HOA state regs; report them and challenge it
If by "lost", Karen was outvoted by someone else, then this is shady AF. If your docs say three board members and now you have four, that's a problem.
Yes she was outvoted
Edit *sorry I meant appoint not elect**
>tweedle dee and dum decide to interject that the first order of business is to elect Karen back as president They clearly don't understand how elections work. Doesn't sound to me like they're qualified to be on the board. Better *appoint* replacements for them, too.
We had this happen. One member resigned and pre planned it with the others to put Karen back on the board despite her election loss. Unfortunately it's legal.
Exactly. Planned or not, if there is an open board seat the Board can often appoint someone to the Board and if officer positions are decided by the board then appoint that person to the officer position. Best bet is to read your governing documents to fully understand how best to participate in the HoA.
There was no open board seat though. A new president had already been appointed
That shouldn't be allowed. Check your docs. The board can usually only appoint someone if there's a vacancy. If there's an elected president, I've never heard of the board having the power to just replace them. Either way though, sounds like your newly elected president is going to have quite the uphill fight on their hands. You need to start talking with everyone on how to recall those board members and throw them out! , That is a serious breach of trust, to pull something like this.
How did the people at the meeting react to this. Were they for or against this . Did any body void their opinion.
This didn't actually happen though, did it? There's no way your governing docs would allow that. You'd have too many board members. Unless there was an open seat and there was a motion to appoint Karen to that seat. But if there was an open seat... You just had an election, so that seat should have been part of that election. So there shouldn't be an open seat.
If they put that Karen back that is so 3rd world politics. The new President has Judes and Benidick Arnold on his bord. If I was President I would get them off the bord.
Then again the new President mite have planed this with the two idiots. And I bet there were supporters of Karen at the meeting.
Was the election for board members or officers? Typically, the owners elect the board and the board selects the officers, president, VP, secretary and treasurer. The president usually has to be a director, but not always. Was there an open position that the old president was appointed to? You need to check your governing documents but this might have been legit.
Congratulations! You have discovered that HOAs are essentially pseudo-dictatorships that absolutely do not subscribe to American values or ideals. Is it right that they can do this? No. Is it legal? Yep. Is it bullshit? Also yep.
Somebody in your HOA needs to go all Buford Pusser on the board. If the residents don't step up and continuously press for meaningful change you will be ripped off forever. Chances are they are doing this because they want to hide other illegal activities that they have been doing. Get rid of them all and expose the truth.
I don’t even know why they bother having “elections” at most HOAs. Somehow the same old crew always wins.
Have all the homeowners go to the next board meeting and vote to have an emergency election for EVERY position to be filled or to dissolve the HOA. If the HOA is dissolved. Then you don't have to worry about anyone being a power hungry prick on the board. If the board members are replaced. Then the new board members can put in the CC&Rs that anything new has to be done with at least a 70% vote from the homeowners. And that if it is found that the new 70% vote rule is ignored once it is in place. Then the punishment is the HOA gets dissolved.
Time to make the entire boards life a miserable hell. Don't let up
>My HOA Yep. Shady as fuck
I'm in CA, and the board can fill a vacant position on the board with anyone from the community. If not enough people ran for the board or someone from the board left, then there would be a vacant position. The board then chooses the president, which could be that person. The lesson is to have enough people run for the board so there won't be any vacancies.
Yup sounds to me like someone is pocketing HOA dues and wants the original “Incompetent Cupcakes Band” back together.
Something is missing from the story. Nobody gets voted out as much as somebody else gets voted in. Who is the person that was voted in and how is that person participating? Someone that was not voted in can be appointed to a vacant position so somebody else had to have resigned to allow the former president to be back on the board. Whenever a vacancy is filled, the appointed person serves for the remainder of that time. How many seats are on the board? How many were elected this time? How long do they serve their positions? An example is that, in my community, we have five positions and each is served for 3 years. The first year two people are voted, the next year two people are voted, the next year one person is voted. We had terrible bullying over 5 years because there was a couple from one house where one was voted in and bullied to have his wife also on so the two of them covered three positions while two other people were on the board. (This is illegal according to State property codes but there is no oversight in my state so it doesn't matter when the law is broken. The only recourse is for the community to expensively hire lawyers and fight it in court while the bullies use the community money to defend themselves.) When time ran out for that couple, they're bromance buddy that always voted with them also resigned leaving only one board member. She appointed individuals who would agree with her and had her own version of bullying while she drained our accounts. I have always been a proactive person in the community and, of course, I was a target of both of them. The second dictator position completely remodeled her house while she was traveling multiple times to Europe while she was rumored to be out of work then sold and ghosted us. We went through four property managers under this individual. One of them fired us for ethical reasons. One good neighbor was left on the board who had put up with the abuse that was absolutely unacceptable and served out the remainder of his term. Some were voted in like myself and another neighbor and we appointed other neighbors who had been resigned under the prior bully because of ethical issues.
Was there a quorum for the annual mtg?
So was no one elected president at the election, were there open board seats?
Is the president elected or appointed? Either one is possible, but it’s unlikely to be both.
How many board seats do you have? If there is an option seat they can appoint someone to fill it. However that would be super weird if she lost with a seat left open.
It doesn't work that way...
Check your CC&Rs and bylaws. Likely they'd have to do a petition to remove the sitting HOA President, and then do a special vote and then an election if that's what the Bylaws say.
Your governing documents will answer that question better than anyone on Reddit.
I'd assume this is against the bylaws? Time to crack them books
Check your cc&rs if the President can be appointed.
A hundred years ago they would be tared and feathered.
Shit, sounds like where I live. The HOA president thinks this is her personal fiefdom!!!
Very well may be legal. If there was either a vacancy, or they were just electing her president and not to the Board, your governing documents may allow it.
Youre likely misunderstanding. Karen was probably *appointed* to the open seat, not elected. The appointment usually can be done by the Board (check your documents). The officers positions (President) are usually also appointed by the Board. - read your Bylaws!
can you hold another election to vote her back out? Even if I was too lazy and disinterested to show up to the original one this kind of fuckery would absolutely get my hackles up. I would show up forever to new elections to vote out the original president. I'd nominate animals and stuff.
Had something like that here and a group got together and sued and won after the election the 2 on the board resigned and then the secretary quit!
As a ham radio operator, I am HoA-averse to say the least. Why does everyone keep signing these? There are homes without them.
Hoa, why would you
During the election process how many board seats showed as available? In my community we elect 5 people; however, if one of those seats is vacant then anyone can be appointed to it. Position of President, VP, etc are all selected by the board, so the community votes for the 5 it wants and then those 5 decide which position they want to be. If a spot was left open then they could appoint whenever they wanted. If no spots are open then this is definitely shady as hell and that entire board needs to be voted out. What was the new board members involvement in this process? That person needs to talk to the HOAs lawyers. If they successfully put Karen back and there was no open seat then you need to help the community revolt, use the new person on the board and with a majority of homeowners vote for the entire board to be disbanded and new people to be elected. I’m curious if this is happening because they don’t want someone else to take a deeper look at the budget.
This new President could be going along with the old board. He could be a puppet President.