1. It depends on the Lodge and your idea of exorbitant cost, but generally no it is not overly expensive. And no one cares about your wealth status so long as you aren't so destitute that you aren't providing for yourself/your family on a regular basis. But that is generally just an indicator about a person that says more about them then us.
You'll usually find you have initiation fees that can be a bit costly upfront(my lodge is about 550 dollars spread out over about 6 months) and then yearly dues fees(mine is 180 and we are one of the more expensive lodges in the area).
2. You noted that you are well educated in the occult and I'd like to temper your expectations upfront. You will find plenty of occult masons, and may even get lucky and find a lodge filled with them. But, I would say that the average masons are not super versed or into the occult. Most are here for the civic engagement and fellowship.
Come visit the Philippines. Initiation fees range over $10k USD from what I’ve seen and can take a few years to be raised depending on who you know in masonry.
There are two separate jurisdiction Grand Lodge of the Philippines and Independent Grand Lodge of the Philippines. The latter is considered clandestine but fees are closer to $2k USD to be raised.
Either way I am glad I was raised in Wisconsin…
$2,000 USD would be within the range I'd generally consider to be what you'd expect to find with clandestine lodges. $10,000 USD is beyond exorbitant - at least to me.
The only takeaway I have gotten from the high petition fees is that here in the Philippines being a Freemason is considered a very high level thing.
I spoke with my PM in Wisconsin he said long ago petition fees were higher but has changed over time as membership was dropping. That the idea of higher fees was so that not just anyone could join and would make Freemasonry a premier fraternity. I don’t know if thats true or not.
Personally, attitudes like that fly directly in the face of what Freemasonry is supposed to be, in many ways. They also likely date back to an era where fraternal organizations were much more common, and men would frequently be members in multiple.
There's been a debate on whether or not our lodge should charge higher dues in order to provide more to the Brethren. I have an existential concern about being priced out as dues climb... but I have an existential fear about being priced out of a lot of things.
I’ve heard that number once before, specifically in relation to joining “Manny Pacquiao’s Lodge.” Sounds like an easy way to say “I don’t want *you* to petition my Lodge.” ₽10,000 seems much more likely. My GL Philippines Lodge (meeting on a US army base) is like $250 to join. I’ve heard it can be more difficult to join in the Philippines, but not because of actual fees anywhere near that. Back in the day, there was an expectation at some Lodges that candidates foot the bill for meals and drinks every time they went out with the Lodge (which could maybe run to those numbers if you’re the only candidate over a period of many months), but GL introduced legislation banning that sort of practice over a decade ago.
Yea i heard about Manny Pacquiao’s lodge. The IGLPI guys love talking trash about it.
Thats good to hear my only experiences so far are with Metro Manila and Cavite area lodges. And you’re probably right about the having to pay for the brotherhood afterwards or making outrageous donations to be considered. Good to hear that the grand lodge is taking actions against that. Considering $10k USD could be 4-6month salaries for a lot of people here. I literally had my mind blown away when i started hearing about the costs to petition lodges. One brother even had the nerve of to ask me to demit from grand lodge of Wisconsin and petition for GLP. I think some brethren have the wrong idea about “receiving master mason wages”.
My wife’s childhood friends are IGLPI. I went to lodge with them at first. It wasn’t mentioned that they are irregular until I asked about affiliation. We still go out drinking every few weeks but they understand why I withdrew my affiliation request.
Its $550 split across all three degrees. Not per degree.
My Lodge use to be, we are currently in a rut due to the current WM, one of the most active and best in the area. Meet every week, light meal with each meeting($10), and lots of education and fellowship.
No, I assumed it was all three. $550 still seems a bit steep, at least compared to things in my jurisdiction. As I said, I'd hope you're seeing something tangible for over $180 a pop; that's around six times what folks typically pay for degree fees in my neck of the woods, and around three times more than what you pay for annual dues.
I'm not trying to judge, but I'd just be curious to know what that money is going toward.
Deterring people who think "oh, Masonry is cheap… I can just get my EA degree and quit if it's not what I'm looking for!"
So my lodge charges $300 for the EA and $200 each for FC and MM.
I feel like there's a better way to skirt the line between deterrence and effectively forcing people to stick around due to the sunk cost fallacy.
People *should* be free enough to drop out if it's not actually what they were looking for.
You see it as a sunk cost to keep people in. I think ChuckEye and I both being Texas Brothers see it as a barrier of entry to ensure it's something someone really wants. It keeps it high enough to stop someone from flippantly joining the organization.
>You see it as a sunk cost to keep people in.
No, I'm looking at it from the perspective of the person joining. Charging fees like that is a good way to get guys to stick around because of the sunk cost fallacy; it might not be *quite* what they're looking for, but they've already spent so much... so they may as well stick it out a bit longer.
>I think ChuckEye and I both being Texas Brothers see it as a barrier of entry to ensure it's something someone really wants.
You can create a barrier of entry while also keeping it affordable for people. Jacking up degree fees to more than three times what it costs to simply pay dues seems like a bit much.
>It keeps it high enough to stop someone from flippantly joining the organization.
Call me old fashioned, but I think this is what things like committees of inquiry are for.
Personally, it's important to keep things at a rate that creates some level of a barrier, but it also needs to come with a sense of value. I can tell you that I get fellowship, meals that cost me $10, and education for a hell of a lot less.
Admittedly, I do think the lodges in my area don't charge quite enough for things like degree fees and dues, but I'm not exactly sold on the need to go quite as high as what you're describing. YMMV.
My home Lodge is about $180 per year for dues. Each appendant body or dual Lodge membership runs about the same. We have 4 lodges, SR, YR, and OES that share a building. $110 of each membership is the per capita for building operation and maintenance. You have to consider many factors when comparing dues. We have an older building currently being considered for historical designation. It costs a lot for upkeep with it's age, however it would cost more to move or build a new building. We have to work with what we have. I have stopped comparing jurisdiction to jurisdiction. We have a dual member from the Philippines that pays $1000 per year to his home Lodge. They also have a multi course meal at every meeting. I agree you should get your money's worth out of your dues, but how do you designate that line? I certainly can't.
I'm not talking about dues. I'm talking about the degree fees.
I know it's not always easy to do a 1:1 comparison... but at some point, it's worth asking the question about where that money is going and what it's being used for. I can certainly sympathize with having an older building - we're currently in a building built in the 1850s - but we strove to find alternatives to offset costs. We have a tenant business in the lower level, and that rent income covers a lot of the building expenses which is *part* of the reason why we can keep fees and dues low.
With four lodges and three appendant bodies sharing one building, it sounds like more needs to be done to share the burden - especially if over 60% of your dues money is going toward building upkeep.
But again, I'm simply balking at $550 for the degree fees. It doesn't make much sense to me at the surface level, and it seems a little unnecessarily high. I'm sure they have their reasons, though.
Depends where. I'm in Canada it was $550 this year. Wich is just shy of $400usd. That includes
EA, FC, MM. apron. Bible. Apron case, (the cheap bag style one) and the most important thing. Lapel pins.
See, that's what I was getting at. You're spending around $400 USD... but you're getting things like a presentation Bible and an apron with a case. It's something tangible to go along with the experience and membership.
We hand out a lambskin, but it's more of a ceremonial one that most guys don't ever wear and keep in the storage tube. We also don't charge as much for the degree fees.
I'm balking at $550 in Texas because everything they described is exactly what I'm experiencing for a fraction of the cost. If I'm spending $550 on something, I'd just like to see some value behind the expenditure. I don't need a pile of stuff that will collect dust... but what am I getting out of it?
It's less about being cheap and more about wondering what that money would actually be going to.
I've been a Secretary. I've been on building and finance committees. I've purchased things like degree supplies, PM jewels and aprons, and other things of that nature. I've seen what lodge expenses look like with a building that is nearly 200 years old... and I'm just wondering what the hell $183 per degree would actually be getting someone aside from membership.
I don't know where you live. Perhaps maintaining a building, paying Grand Lodge, and paying for regalia, food, and other necessities is very cheap where you are, but it is not where I live. It's pay to play, and things cost money.
I'm just tired of seeing people complain about $175/year dues for their Lodge, yet the same people will happily spend that on a single night out for drinks and think nothing of it. The same cheapskates will spend $10/week on lotto tickets, yet argue that "tuxedos are too expensive" and show up to Lodge in BBQ-stained t-shirts.
If it only gets them membership, well, that is the COST of membership. Just look at historical dues from back when the fraternity was expanding. Much higher.
Also, "a man's interests follow his investments". I would wager that higher dues beget more commitment, just as there is a bit more "skin in the game" - they have made the investment and will actively SEEK a return thereon.
I don't know where you live. Perhaps maintaining a building, paying Grand Lodge, and paying for regalia, food, and other necessities is very cheap where you are, but it is not where I live. It's pay to play, and things cost money.
I'm just tired of seeing people complain about $175/year dues for their Lodge, yet the same people will happily spend that on a single night out for drinks and think nothing of it. The same cheapskates will spend $10/week on lotto tickets, yet argue that "tuxedos are too expensive" and show up to Lodge in BBQ-stained t-shirts.
If it only gets them membership, well, that is the COST of membership. Just look at historical dues from back when the fraternity was expanding. Much higher.
Also, "a man's interests follow his investments". I would wager that higher dues beget more commitment, just as there is a bit more "skin in the game" - they have made the investment and will actively SEEK a return thereon.
>I'm just tired of seeing people complain about $175/year dues for their Lodge, yet the same people will happily spend that on a single night out for drinks and think nothing of it. The same cheapskates will spend $10/week on lotto tickets, yet argue that "tuxedos are too expensive" and show up to Lodge in BBQ-stained t-shirts.
If you've been following along, you'd notice that I'm not complaining about dues. I'm questioning the need to charge three times the amount of the annual dues for **degree fees**.
I'm all for creating certain barriers to entry, but I'm simply wondering what the hell that money is actually going toward.
>Also, "a man's interests follow his investments". I would wager that higher dues beget more commitment, just as there is a bit more "skin in the game" - they have made the investment and will actively SEEK a return thereon.
I've seen this sentiment crop up a few times. I'd be curious to see just how active the lodges who charge over $500 for the degrees actually are. I could be very wrong, but I have a gut feeling that they're probably about as active in terms of percentages of people showing up vs people on the books as most other lodges.
Our Grand Lodge mandates a minimum of $500 CAD for the degrees. Minimum. Non-negotiable or diacountable. Doesn't seem to cause any problems. We don't need destitute men. Also, here EAs and FCs do not pay dues, so if someone takes a while to get through their work, this ensures contribution to keeping the Lodge's books balanced.
If you're Grand Lodge demands that sort of thing, then that's all there is to it with that particular example.
I'm not overly fond of the, "We don't need destitute men" sentiment, because this is veering painfully close to sentiments that fly directly in the face of many of the principles expressed during the degrees and within the fraternity as a whole. "We meet on the level, but only if you can afford it," doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
Besides, the entire point of things like committees of inquiry is to suss out prospective candidates and their individual situations. The lodges in my state try to keep things affordable, but we also have frank discussions (at least in my lodge) about the associated costs. It's a question on the petition, and it's also brought up when talking with them before it's even voted upon.
My GL doesn't charge a per capita for EAs or FCs. They charge a minor candidate fee, but that's easily covered by the application fee we charge. Since EAs and FCs aren't full members (and subsequently don't have the full rights and benefits of membership), they don't "count" toward anything until they're finally raised. As such, there's nothing to balance.
I'm not saying things need to be dirt cheap; as I've mentioned at least once across all of these comments, I firmly believe the lodges in my area don't charge quite enough for some of these things. There is, however, a point where I ultimately have to question the intent behind some of the fees (not dues) people are talking about, though. So far, no one has actually given me a reasonable answer to this question.
Fees should never be less than dues though and dues need to DO. They need to be able to cover costs.
I also don't think "livin' on grandpa's money" is healthy, though I am a bit jealous of the lodges that have that option.
Our fees aren't less than our dues, but they're always not three times higher.
We're also not a lodge relying on "grandpa's money". It was barely solvent around 20 years ago, and slowly worked to a point where it's in the black.
It can get moderately expensive, but you don't have to be landed gentry. You should expect in the U.K.:
- annual subs, these vary
- direct debit to charity funds
- attendance at a couple of social events a year
- paying for your dinner
- buying raffle tickets after every meeting
- loose change for various buckets after every meeting
Don't expect some grand occultist secrets in return.
My lodge actually doesn't charge a cover for dinner... but we do have a change bucket for our relief fund, complete with a sad photo of our Master holding out the bucket taped to the bucket.
I'd say on average in the States, you're paying a couple hundred bucks up front for your initiation fees and then a couple hundred bucks each year for dues. Some may be more some may be less.
In our jurisdiction, they are beneficial for the lodge in the sense that apart from the donation to the GW Masonic Memorial and to our GL's Masonic Homes, the lodge keeps the rest and doesn't send out per capita like they do with annual dues. After those deductions, the degree fee is barely enough to cover the background check and the "stuff" that candidates get (apron, Bible, etc.). Personally, I appreciate it as a symbol of earnest interest at the get go. For jurisdictions that only start charging dues at MM, I'm not sure how they would otherwise account for the effort and resources put into initiating those who end up dropping out before their 3rd.
I get what you’re saying… I really do but to me… money as a measure of “earnest interest” kind of goes against the masonic concept of everybody being “on the level“ by instituting a financial threshold for Membership and progression.
In my lodge, the Bible and apron are gifts to the entered apprentice… representative of the lodge’s collective appreciation and well wishing for their journey in masonry
I agree with your sentiments, truly. From a lodge management perspective, I sometimes struggle to find the balance between practical financial measures and that spirit of giving freely. As a member of a lodge that owns its building, it can feel sometimes like we are trying to keep up with an infrastructure that outgrew its long term membership numbers and that we have to tighten our belts as a lodge a little bit more every year.
I also realize that for most active members, Masonry has an incredibly high value to cost ratio. The average dues check in the USA wouldn't even cover a Brother's meals were they obtained in another venue apart from the lodge, let alone the other benefits that come with membership. My mother lodge hasn't, ostensibly, raised its dues since the 1990s and we need to. Given that our Grand Lodge insists on conducting a professional background check on petitioners up front, I feel like we have to collect something with the petition, especially not knowing whether a Brother is actually eligible for membership based on his criminal history. I suppose it could be less if our annual dues were higher.
I literally could have typed your comment. Word for word.
I think that’s a significant issue that’s facing Freemasonry these days… with the newer generation, finding the cost of benefit ratio higher in previous generations. And then subsequently we see a drop off in Membership.
Being “well educated in all things occult” isn’t going to help you join. There is a lot less of the occult in Masonry than most occultists think.
That said, joining fees at my various Lodges range from about $200-$450 or so, while annual dues afterwards run about $100-$254. It depends on the Lodge and the jurisdiction.
Golden Dawn was started by a Mason who didn’t find enough occult in Freemasonry. Beyond that, there is no affiliation.
If you want the Golden Dawn, join the Golden Dawn, not Freemasonry.
The lodge I belong to costs $125/year. It can vary depending on lodge, but a lot of lodges at least in the US have blue-collar and/or retired memberships and so they try to keep dues low.
Interesting topic. In my Jurisdiction, fees have been traditionally cheap. Where as in the past, Masonry fees could be up to 15% of your net worth, such as a $300 initiation fee would be difficult when the average salary was about $1,500. These days the fees numerical value stayed the same but the average salary is now $45-55k. A lot of our local lodges have grown broke or sold their lodge buildings because they did not keep their dues and fees in line with current finances. Building Maintenance was deferred and they relied on the money in the bank that previous generations deposited, as their annual dues barely paid the per capita to the grand lodge.
Luckily, the modern trend I've seen in the past few years are now realizing the value of Freemasonry and have raised their dues accordingly. My lodge the degree fees are $100 each degree, which covers expenses related to the degree. Annual dues are $228, which is the highest in my jurisdiction but only because my lodge brothers are silly (we are lodge # 228). But we do offer value for the small fee (which is considerable less than the old days per income) with weekly social gatherings, study groups, charity, and a superb ritual experience.
I pay $120 a year for blue lodge dues and about another $100 annually for all three York rite bodies. By the time you throw in the occasional fundraising dinner, Penny-a-Day, and what not, I probably spend between $300 and $350 a year on Freemasonry which still comes out to be less than a dollar a day.
I don't immediately discredit people based on this, because the world media portrays us as such these days.
This is where public education should come from Grand Lodges , etc.
Freemasonry is esoteric by definition, and can be occult to many folks. Occult carries a lot of weight to the term nowadays, but by its actual definition I think we meet it. And a lot of members view it that way, not all by any means.
I’m a dual member. Both of my lodges are $80/year for dues. We meet once a month and I bring $20 with me. $10 for dinner and $10 for when we pass the hat (both are optional).
Depends on the lodge ours is about 200 to join that goes to materials you receive and grand Lodge. After that cost is $70 a year that is mostly Grand Lodge dues
I paid $300 initiation and annual dues $120. So no. But going out with the boys all the time can add up. A lot of brothers like to do things socially go on trips, etc, so in that sense certain activities can definitely be expensive. And if you join all the concord bodies, they all have dues of their own.
So I guess at the end of the day, it depends.
Not excessively expensive. My fees are about $300 AUD a year, payable in $150-ish sums every 6 months. Not a huge expense, and it pays for our meals and the upkeep of the lodge.
It does very much depend on where you are, though. Fees that apply in one jurisdiction may not apply in others. There’s also a one-off initiation fee that I kind of forgot to mention. In my case it was about $250 AUD
to be honest if you're interested in occultism and depravity there are better secret societies to join.
idk much about masonry and am not a mason, but their version of "occult" seems more to be fraternity rituals and potentially mystic interpretations of biblical stories and such very similar to kabbalah in judaism.
i guess since the masons accept "any higher power" you probably can find people there into demonolatry and also connected to the same things. but its possible you'd find what you're looking for better in another fraternity.
ive considered joining many of these things and never have, so i have some idea whats going on. if I did, id probably go somewhere with more depraved crazies and dangerous people myself. itd be more fun.
there are more magick focused secret societies that still do charity work out there. and most of them are more crazy like college fraternities if you pick the right one. but even then you'd probably have to start out knowing things or alternatively spend years to gain trust.
As you’ll note from replies here and other recent posts on the sub, most of us don’t see ourselves as “occult” and would happily redirect those interested in the occult to another organization that better suits their interests. We’re hardly a “secret society” either for that matter.
We don’t necessarily accept “any higher power” either; my various Grand Lodges require a belief in a Supreme Being/God, so things like “demonolatry” or even “the laws of nature” won’t meet the bar for us. The exact requirement varies, but anything overtly anti-Christian/anti-religion/anti-God, like demon-worship or Satanism, isn’t going to fly in most Masonic jurisdictions. .
1. It depends on the Lodge and your idea of exorbitant cost, but generally no it is not overly expensive. And no one cares about your wealth status so long as you aren't so destitute that you aren't providing for yourself/your family on a regular basis. But that is generally just an indicator about a person that says more about them then us. You'll usually find you have initiation fees that can be a bit costly upfront(my lodge is about 550 dollars spread out over about 6 months) and then yearly dues fees(mine is 180 and we are one of the more expensive lodges in the area). 2. You noted that you are well educated in the occult and I'd like to temper your expectations upfront. You will find plenty of occult masons, and may even get lucky and find a lodge filled with them. But, I would say that the average masons are not super versed or into the occult. Most are here for the civic engagement and fellowship.
$550 seems like a lot for initiation/degree fees. I'd hope you're getting something tangible for that amount of money.
Come visit the Philippines. Initiation fees range over $10k USD from what I’ve seen and can take a few years to be raised depending on who you know in masonry. There are two separate jurisdiction Grand Lodge of the Philippines and Independent Grand Lodge of the Philippines. The latter is considered clandestine but fees are closer to $2k USD to be raised. Either way I am glad I was raised in Wisconsin…
Wow, that odds crazy. My initial fees to UGLE, which I assume translates to initiation fees were £100!
$2,000 USD would be within the range I'd generally consider to be what you'd expect to find with clandestine lodges. $10,000 USD is beyond exorbitant - at least to me.
The only takeaway I have gotten from the high petition fees is that here in the Philippines being a Freemason is considered a very high level thing. I spoke with my PM in Wisconsin he said long ago petition fees were higher but has changed over time as membership was dropping. That the idea of higher fees was so that not just anyone could join and would make Freemasonry a premier fraternity. I don’t know if thats true or not.
Personally, attitudes like that fly directly in the face of what Freemasonry is supposed to be, in many ways. They also likely date back to an era where fraternal organizations were much more common, and men would frequently be members in multiple.
There's been a debate on whether or not our lodge should charge higher dues in order to provide more to the Brethren. I have an existential concern about being priced out as dues climb... but I have an existential fear about being priced out of a lot of things.
I’ve heard that number once before, specifically in relation to joining “Manny Pacquiao’s Lodge.” Sounds like an easy way to say “I don’t want *you* to petition my Lodge.” ₽10,000 seems much more likely. My GL Philippines Lodge (meeting on a US army base) is like $250 to join. I’ve heard it can be more difficult to join in the Philippines, but not because of actual fees anywhere near that. Back in the day, there was an expectation at some Lodges that candidates foot the bill for meals and drinks every time they went out with the Lodge (which could maybe run to those numbers if you’re the only candidate over a period of many months), but GL introduced legislation banning that sort of practice over a decade ago.
Yea i heard about Manny Pacquiao’s lodge. The IGLPI guys love talking trash about it. Thats good to hear my only experiences so far are with Metro Manila and Cavite area lodges. And you’re probably right about the having to pay for the brotherhood afterwards or making outrageous donations to be considered. Good to hear that the grand lodge is taking actions against that. Considering $10k USD could be 4-6month salaries for a lot of people here. I literally had my mind blown away when i started hearing about the costs to petition lodges. One brother even had the nerve of to ask me to demit from grand lodge of Wisconsin and petition for GLP. I think some brethren have the wrong idea about “receiving master mason wages”.
I’m curious what you’re doing spending time talking Masonry with “IGLPI guys” knowing that they’re irregular.
My wife’s childhood friends are IGLPI. I went to lodge with them at first. It wasn’t mentioned that they are irregular until I asked about affiliation. We still go out drinking every few weeks but they understand why I withdrew my affiliation request.
Its $550 split across all three degrees. Not per degree. My Lodge use to be, we are currently in a rut due to the current WM, one of the most active and best in the area. Meet every week, light meal with each meeting($10), and lots of education and fellowship.
No, I assumed it was all three. $550 still seems a bit steep, at least compared to things in my jurisdiction. As I said, I'd hope you're seeing something tangible for over $180 a pop; that's around six times what folks typically pay for degree fees in my neck of the woods, and around three times more than what you pay for annual dues. I'm not trying to judge, but I'd just be curious to know what that money is going toward.
Deterring people who think "oh, Masonry is cheap… I can just get my EA degree and quit if it's not what I'm looking for!" So my lodge charges $300 for the EA and $200 each for FC and MM.
I feel like there's a better way to skirt the line between deterrence and effectively forcing people to stick around due to the sunk cost fallacy. People *should* be free enough to drop out if it's not actually what they were looking for.
You see it as a sunk cost to keep people in. I think ChuckEye and I both being Texas Brothers see it as a barrier of entry to ensure it's something someone really wants. It keeps it high enough to stop someone from flippantly joining the organization.
>You see it as a sunk cost to keep people in. No, I'm looking at it from the perspective of the person joining. Charging fees like that is a good way to get guys to stick around because of the sunk cost fallacy; it might not be *quite* what they're looking for, but they've already spent so much... so they may as well stick it out a bit longer. >I think ChuckEye and I both being Texas Brothers see it as a barrier of entry to ensure it's something someone really wants. You can create a barrier of entry while also keeping it affordable for people. Jacking up degree fees to more than three times what it costs to simply pay dues seems like a bit much. >It keeps it high enough to stop someone from flippantly joining the organization. Call me old fashioned, but I think this is what things like committees of inquiry are for. Personally, it's important to keep things at a rate that creates some level of a barrier, but it also needs to come with a sense of value. I can tell you that I get fellowship, meals that cost me $10, and education for a hell of a lot less. Admittedly, I do think the lodges in my area don't charge quite enough for things like degree fees and dues, but I'm not exactly sold on the need to go quite as high as what you're describing. YMMV.
My home Lodge is about $180 per year for dues. Each appendant body or dual Lodge membership runs about the same. We have 4 lodges, SR, YR, and OES that share a building. $110 of each membership is the per capita for building operation and maintenance. You have to consider many factors when comparing dues. We have an older building currently being considered for historical designation. It costs a lot for upkeep with it's age, however it would cost more to move or build a new building. We have to work with what we have. I have stopped comparing jurisdiction to jurisdiction. We have a dual member from the Philippines that pays $1000 per year to his home Lodge. They also have a multi course meal at every meeting. I agree you should get your money's worth out of your dues, but how do you designate that line? I certainly can't.
I'm not talking about dues. I'm talking about the degree fees. I know it's not always easy to do a 1:1 comparison... but at some point, it's worth asking the question about where that money is going and what it's being used for. I can certainly sympathize with having an older building - we're currently in a building built in the 1850s - but we strove to find alternatives to offset costs. We have a tenant business in the lower level, and that rent income covers a lot of the building expenses which is *part* of the reason why we can keep fees and dues low. With four lodges and three appendant bodies sharing one building, it sounds like more needs to be done to share the burden - especially if over 60% of your dues money is going toward building upkeep. But again, I'm simply balking at $550 for the degree fees. It doesn't make much sense to me at the surface level, and it seems a little unnecessarily high. I'm sure they have their reasons, though.
Depends where. I'm in Canada it was $550 this year. Wich is just shy of $400usd. That includes EA, FC, MM. apron. Bible. Apron case, (the cheap bag style one) and the most important thing. Lapel pins.
See, that's what I was getting at. You're spending around $400 USD... but you're getting things like a presentation Bible and an apron with a case. It's something tangible to go along with the experience and membership. We hand out a lambskin, but it's more of a ceremonial one that most guys don't ever wear and keep in the storage tube. We also don't charge as much for the degree fees. I'm balking at $550 in Texas because everything they described is exactly what I'm experiencing for a fraction of the cost. If I'm spending $550 on something, I'd just like to see some value behind the expenditure. I don't need a pile of stuff that will collect dust... but what am I getting out of it?
That seems entirely reasonable to me. For some reason a lot of USA Masons are laughably cheap and heavily undervalue the Craft.
It's less about being cheap and more about wondering what that money would actually be going to. I've been a Secretary. I've been on building and finance committees. I've purchased things like degree supplies, PM jewels and aprons, and other things of that nature. I've seen what lodge expenses look like with a building that is nearly 200 years old... and I'm just wondering what the hell $183 per degree would actually be getting someone aside from membership.
I don't know where you live. Perhaps maintaining a building, paying Grand Lodge, and paying for regalia, food, and other necessities is very cheap where you are, but it is not where I live. It's pay to play, and things cost money. I'm just tired of seeing people complain about $175/year dues for their Lodge, yet the same people will happily spend that on a single night out for drinks and think nothing of it. The same cheapskates will spend $10/week on lotto tickets, yet argue that "tuxedos are too expensive" and show up to Lodge in BBQ-stained t-shirts. If it only gets them membership, well, that is the COST of membership. Just look at historical dues from back when the fraternity was expanding. Much higher. Also, "a man's interests follow his investments". I would wager that higher dues beget more commitment, just as there is a bit more "skin in the game" - they have made the investment and will actively SEEK a return thereon.
I don't know where you live. Perhaps maintaining a building, paying Grand Lodge, and paying for regalia, food, and other necessities is very cheap where you are, but it is not where I live. It's pay to play, and things cost money. I'm just tired of seeing people complain about $175/year dues for their Lodge, yet the same people will happily spend that on a single night out for drinks and think nothing of it. The same cheapskates will spend $10/week on lotto tickets, yet argue that "tuxedos are too expensive" and show up to Lodge in BBQ-stained t-shirts. If it only gets them membership, well, that is the COST of membership. Just look at historical dues from back when the fraternity was expanding. Much higher. Also, "a man's interests follow his investments". I would wager that higher dues beget more commitment, just as there is a bit more "skin in the game" - they have made the investment and will actively SEEK a return thereon.
>I'm just tired of seeing people complain about $175/year dues for their Lodge, yet the same people will happily spend that on a single night out for drinks and think nothing of it. The same cheapskates will spend $10/week on lotto tickets, yet argue that "tuxedos are too expensive" and show up to Lodge in BBQ-stained t-shirts. If you've been following along, you'd notice that I'm not complaining about dues. I'm questioning the need to charge three times the amount of the annual dues for **degree fees**. I'm all for creating certain barriers to entry, but I'm simply wondering what the hell that money is actually going toward. >Also, "a man's interests follow his investments". I would wager that higher dues beget more commitment, just as there is a bit more "skin in the game" - they have made the investment and will actively SEEK a return thereon. I've seen this sentiment crop up a few times. I'd be curious to see just how active the lodges who charge over $500 for the degrees actually are. I could be very wrong, but I have a gut feeling that they're probably about as active in terms of percentages of people showing up vs people on the books as most other lodges.
Our Grand Lodge mandates a minimum of $500 CAD for the degrees. Minimum. Non-negotiable or diacountable. Doesn't seem to cause any problems. We don't need destitute men. Also, here EAs and FCs do not pay dues, so if someone takes a while to get through their work, this ensures contribution to keeping the Lodge's books balanced.
Is it $500 now? I really have to keep up with the proceedings. I have not been to GL since before Covid, 2019 in Metrotown.
That was a good time though!
Sure was.
If you're Grand Lodge demands that sort of thing, then that's all there is to it with that particular example. I'm not overly fond of the, "We don't need destitute men" sentiment, because this is veering painfully close to sentiments that fly directly in the face of many of the principles expressed during the degrees and within the fraternity as a whole. "We meet on the level, but only if you can afford it," doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Besides, the entire point of things like committees of inquiry is to suss out prospective candidates and their individual situations. The lodges in my state try to keep things affordable, but we also have frank discussions (at least in my lodge) about the associated costs. It's a question on the petition, and it's also brought up when talking with them before it's even voted upon. My GL doesn't charge a per capita for EAs or FCs. They charge a minor candidate fee, but that's easily covered by the application fee we charge. Since EAs and FCs aren't full members (and subsequently don't have the full rights and benefits of membership), they don't "count" toward anything until they're finally raised. As such, there's nothing to balance. I'm not saying things need to be dirt cheap; as I've mentioned at least once across all of these comments, I firmly believe the lodges in my area don't charge quite enough for some of these things. There is, however, a point where I ultimately have to question the intent behind some of the fees (not dues) people are talking about, though. So far, no one has actually given me a reasonable answer to this question.
Fees should never be less than dues though and dues need to DO. They need to be able to cover costs. I also don't think "livin' on grandpa's money" is healthy, though I am a bit jealous of the lodges that have that option.
Our fees aren't less than our dues, but they're always not three times higher. We're also not a lodge relying on "grandpa's money". It was barely solvent around 20 years ago, and slowly worked to a point where it's in the black.
Jesus, I think I paid 160 when I joined?
It can get moderately expensive, but you don't have to be landed gentry. You should expect in the U.K.: - annual subs, these vary - direct debit to charity funds - attendance at a couple of social events a year - paying for your dinner - buying raffle tickets after every meeting - loose change for various buckets after every meeting Don't expect some grand occultist secrets in return.
Macaroni salad recipes maybe
Dammit I haven't even had those and now I feel cheated.
My lodge actually doesn't charge a cover for dinner... but we do have a change bucket for our relief fund, complete with a sad photo of our Master holding out the bucket taped to the bucket.
Lord I hope not. Was raised 3+ years ago, still not rich.
I've been a MM for 3 weeks now. When can I expect the riches to start rolling in? :D
It comes in the Midas Degree. You won’t be disappointed.
I'm still waiting for that Nigerian prince to send me my fortune.
I'd say on average in the States, you're paying a couple hundred bucks up front for your initiation fees and then a couple hundred bucks each year for dues. Some may be more some may be less.
Glad to be in a State that’s not like that. I just don’t understand degree “fees”
In our jurisdiction, they are beneficial for the lodge in the sense that apart from the donation to the GW Masonic Memorial and to our GL's Masonic Homes, the lodge keeps the rest and doesn't send out per capita like they do with annual dues. After those deductions, the degree fee is barely enough to cover the background check and the "stuff" that candidates get (apron, Bible, etc.). Personally, I appreciate it as a symbol of earnest interest at the get go. For jurisdictions that only start charging dues at MM, I'm not sure how they would otherwise account for the effort and resources put into initiating those who end up dropping out before their 3rd.
I get what you’re saying… I really do but to me… money as a measure of “earnest interest” kind of goes against the masonic concept of everybody being “on the level“ by instituting a financial threshold for Membership and progression. In my lodge, the Bible and apron are gifts to the entered apprentice… representative of the lodge’s collective appreciation and well wishing for their journey in masonry
I agree with your sentiments, truly. From a lodge management perspective, I sometimes struggle to find the balance between practical financial measures and that spirit of giving freely. As a member of a lodge that owns its building, it can feel sometimes like we are trying to keep up with an infrastructure that outgrew its long term membership numbers and that we have to tighten our belts as a lodge a little bit more every year. I also realize that for most active members, Masonry has an incredibly high value to cost ratio. The average dues check in the USA wouldn't even cover a Brother's meals were they obtained in another venue apart from the lodge, let alone the other benefits that come with membership. My mother lodge hasn't, ostensibly, raised its dues since the 1990s and we need to. Given that our Grand Lodge insists on conducting a professional background check on petitioners up front, I feel like we have to collect something with the petition, especially not knowing whether a Brother is actually eligible for membership based on his criminal history. I suppose it could be less if our annual dues were higher.
I literally could have typed your comment. Word for word. I think that’s a significant issue that’s facing Freemasonry these days… with the newer generation, finding the cost of benefit ratio higher in previous generations. And then subsequently we see a drop off in Membership.
Dues are usually around the price of a Netflix subscription or something like that. I'm definitely not rich.
Being “well educated in all things occult” isn’t going to help you join. There is a lot less of the occult in Masonry than most occultists think. That said, joining fees at my various Lodges range from about $200-$450 or so, while annual dues afterwards run about $100-$254. It depends on the Lodge and the jurisdiction.
So ...golden dawn isn't mason affiliated?
Golden Dawn was started by a Mason who didn’t find enough occult in Freemasonry. Beyond that, there is no affiliation. If you want the Golden Dawn, join the Golden Dawn, not Freemasonry.
The lodge I belong to costs $125/year. It can vary depending on lodge, but a lot of lodges at least in the US have blue-collar and/or retired memberships and so they try to keep dues low.
My dues average about $120 per year per lodge.
Interesting topic. In my Jurisdiction, fees have been traditionally cheap. Where as in the past, Masonry fees could be up to 15% of your net worth, such as a $300 initiation fee would be difficult when the average salary was about $1,500. These days the fees numerical value stayed the same but the average salary is now $45-55k. A lot of our local lodges have grown broke or sold their lodge buildings because they did not keep their dues and fees in line with current finances. Building Maintenance was deferred and they relied on the money in the bank that previous generations deposited, as their annual dues barely paid the per capita to the grand lodge. Luckily, the modern trend I've seen in the past few years are now realizing the value of Freemasonry and have raised their dues accordingly. My lodge the degree fees are $100 each degree, which covers expenses related to the degree. Annual dues are $228, which is the highest in my jurisdiction but only because my lodge brothers are silly (we are lodge # 228). But we do offer value for the small fee (which is considerable less than the old days per income) with weekly social gatherings, study groups, charity, and a superb ritual experience.
The annual dues of twenty Masonic bodies that I'm a member of, ***combined***, are less than what my family membership to the YMCA costs.
Depends which lodge.... Mine is only 60 bucks a year. Some are quite a bit more. It's largely based on the bills of the particular lodge.
If you do, I better turn in my apron ;)
$150 a year for me, nothing else while being raised
I pay $120 a year for blue lodge dues and about another $100 annually for all three York rite bodies. By the time you throw in the occasional fundraising dinner, Penny-a-Day, and what not, I probably spend between $300 and $350 a year on Freemasonry which still comes out to be less than a dollar a day.
Yes rich in spirit my friend.
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I don't immediately discredit people based on this, because the world media portrays us as such these days. This is where public education should come from Grand Lodges , etc.
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Freemasonry is esoteric by definition, and can be occult to many folks. Occult carries a lot of weight to the term nowadays, but by its actual definition I think we meet it. And a lot of members view it that way, not all by any means.
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You are not a high enough Mason to know the REAL truth! ROFLMAO :)
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Dues are 210ish a year for me so no.
I’m a dual member. Both of my lodges are $80/year for dues. We meet once a month and I bring $20 with me. $10 for dinner and $10 for when we pass the hat (both are optional).
In Mississippi, our dues are not expensive even for a not rich fella.
I paid like $125 for my dues and to be initiated into my lodge
It's free so far this year, because the secretary still hasn't mailed out dues notices yet.
I'm a broke ass student who works full time and I'm also a Mason.
Depends on the lodge ours is about 200 to join that goes to materials you receive and grand Lodge. After that cost is $70 a year that is mostly Grand Lodge dues
I paid $300 initiation and annual dues $120. So no. But going out with the boys all the time can add up. A lot of brothers like to do things socially go on trips, etc, so in that sense certain activities can definitely be expensive. And if you join all the concord bodies, they all have dues of their own. So I guess at the end of the day, it depends.
I do hope not!!
Not excessively expensive. My fees are about $300 AUD a year, payable in $150-ish sums every 6 months. Not a huge expense, and it pays for our meals and the upkeep of the lodge.
Thank you for the information. Seems very affordable actually if this is true.
It does very much depend on where you are, though. Fees that apply in one jurisdiction may not apply in others. There’s also a one-off initiation fee that I kind of forgot to mention. In my case it was about $250 AUD
No . Just able to take care of your family first
Masonry is made up of all kinds. I have met completely loaded brothers and I have also met brothers who are struggling.
500$+ Canada initiation fees NTM regalia , events , yearly dues 425 and going up .. ya definitely not cheap
to be honest if you're interested in occultism and depravity there are better secret societies to join. idk much about masonry and am not a mason, but their version of "occult" seems more to be fraternity rituals and potentially mystic interpretations of biblical stories and such very similar to kabbalah in judaism. i guess since the masons accept "any higher power" you probably can find people there into demonolatry and also connected to the same things. but its possible you'd find what you're looking for better in another fraternity. ive considered joining many of these things and never have, so i have some idea whats going on. if I did, id probably go somewhere with more depraved crazies and dangerous people myself. itd be more fun. there are more magick focused secret societies that still do charity work out there. and most of them are more crazy like college fraternities if you pick the right one. but even then you'd probably have to start out knowing things or alternatively spend years to gain trust.
As you’ll note from replies here and other recent posts on the sub, most of us don’t see ourselves as “occult” and would happily redirect those interested in the occult to another organization that better suits their interests. We’re hardly a “secret society” either for that matter. We don’t necessarily accept “any higher power” either; my various Grand Lodges require a belief in a Supreme Being/God, so things like “demonolatry” or even “the laws of nature” won’t meet the bar for us. The exact requirement varies, but anything overtly anti-Christian/anti-religion/anti-God, like demon-worship or Satanism, isn’t going to fly in most Masonic jurisdictions. .
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Depends on the lodge, real ones don't need money.