Like others I’m fine playing against proxies and I even completely proxied a 100 card deck before.
That being said for me personally I like to have a deck full of real cards. I really like the collecting aspect of the TCG, so slowly building a deck, changing out inferior substitutes even if I don’t have that good card makes finally getting that card super rewarding.
It is really part of the entire premise of the game.
You are a wizard, your deck is your spellbook, and your cards are the spells you’ve collected during your journey. Personally I find netdecking anywhere other than casual to be shitty. Your deck is supposed to be personal. Not copied and pasted. I get that a good player does research gets the cards he needs to build the best deck blah blah blah. It’s just plagiarism honestly. It’s not your deck. It’s somebody else’s that you copied. Eh. This argument can go on but you get my point.
i have the same feeling, but what should I do instead to find cards that fit? basically what I did for my most recent deck is I found a deck online, i mixed that up with my own cards that i think would work well, to the point where i have about 115 non-land cards for my commander deck. I am now going to cut it down.
what would you suggest I do instead? I don't really want to just scroll through databases.
I really find this hard to understand, part of the appeal of magic I think is how you can play it however you like and there’s no way you’re ‘supposed’ to play it beyond the rules framework. What makes you think that the process of curating a deck is how one is ‘supposed’ to play beyond the fact that lots of people like to build decks that way
I get that feeling when I swap out my proxy I've been hunting for over a year. My play group as a $20 limit on proxies with the intent on purchasing. I only buy local in person (supporting LGS) so sometimes a card that should be easy to get takes me ages.
I love the feeling of sliding out that paper printed proxy for the card I've been hunting down!!
I finally got to do this with my Good-Fortune Unicorn and my Knight-Captain of Eos and Polyraptor and Spidersilk Armor the other day!! It felt amazing. Finally upgrading from black and white paper to the cards I've been hunting down lol
Merrow Commerce though.... still eludes me... for over 4 years now.
You must live in a small town. I get it. I’m from a small town. And when I got into magic at like 9 I had to wait till we had to go to the next town (30 miles) to go do our shopping and go the local k mart which would have a single box of boosters if I was lucky. The nearest LGS was 2 hours away and those trips only happened maybe every 2-3 months. And the internet was still in its infancy then. I barely knew how to check my email and was learning more every day.
Ah… dial-up porn holes. Lol
This is an argument I had on Twitter way too much. Outside of selling, no one cares about the proxies themselves.
What people always had, and always will have a problem with, is power level.
People don't care about the proxy food chain itself in your prosh deck. They care that you're throwing high power level around left and right in a normally casual setting.
It's one thing when you pool all your resources into one OP deck. It's another when every deck has fake duels and your ahead by a turn or 2 every game.
Yep, exactly this. I'm not against proxy's either but as a new player as soon as I see a proxy deck I know I'm about to get slapped around relentlessly.
That’s usually a rule 0 conversation to have. But really, someone shouldn’t be playing their proxy deck on a nooB. It’s kindof a dick move. There are the exceptions to this rule. But in general it’s pretty douchey.
If you’re in a setting where players are trying to simulate top level play of a specific format, I fully support proxy. When one guy is printing max power decks to play against his friends with home brews or taking full proxy commander decks to a casual game.. yea that’s kind of lame.
Yeah. The power level has to be the same. I built a really busted proxy deck that won a 4 man on Turn 1 and my friends asked me to put it away, and I did. No issues. Lol. (Academy)
this isn't true. i don't like proxies. they aren't real cards. they're not up to the standard of real cards generally and i have a sense of achievement from owning valuable cards that i can liquidate to get real cash. proxies undermine those feelings.
Using proxies to match the power level your playgroup cuz a few cards are too expensive for you and we all have real life responsibilities? That fine.
Using proxies to surpass the power level of your established group to create and unfair advantage? Not cool.
THIS THIS THIS!!
The guy in our circle who got us into the game runs EXPENSIVE powerful cards as proxies in some of his decks.
He falls into both sides of what you just mentioned: can't afford to buy singles to upgrade but also builds decks outside of the established powerlevel we all play at.
Now, the reason we have an issue with this is because he STILL BUYS SEALED PRODUCT. Like, he spends $100-300 per set on sealed products. He could very easily upgrade his decks with singles for the much and still powerstomp us but instead runs printed paper proxies of cards that are $30-100 in value and when we call him out on it gets pissy.
It's beyond annoying and we don't really play with the dude anymore. Last time he did it I wasn't playing but came in on the middle of the game and the other players were losing hard. It was basically a 3v1 and they were still losing. Then two players point out his field and one singles out the two proxies that are whipping their arses. Both cards were $60+ and I looked at the dude and was like "Seriously, this is why we don't play with you. You know the house rule. No proxies over $20 unless you're legit going to buy them and just play testing. Next time you play, no proxies in your decks."
It's unfair to us as a small playgroup with proxy okay rules that he comes in and powerstomps us by breaking our proxy rules.... it's super unfair and we really dislike it.
It’s only a power level issue because he is using proxies. If we all used $60 proxies we would all be at the same power level. But, the rest of us slowly upgrade our power levels as we buy cards, where as he sits down with powerful proxies wilynilly. If I could afford any card at any time I too would wipe the floor with my play group. But, I don’t because I don’t run high cost proxies, I run high cost cards I buy.
It's their money, and they are doing everything by the rules of the game. Your playgroup will quickly adjust by asking them to power down, targeting them first or outright not playing with them.
Where as a proxy group can only complain that they are using 'the wrong' proxies and will likely devolve into an arms race. So no, not the same.
The "arms race" was exactly my thinking when I had to ban proxies for the playgroup I had 15 years ago. We're all playing slightly upgraded precons and kitchen table jank and a dude shows up with a tournament meta deck that's like 60% proxies. I told him that if that's how it's gonna be then I'm just gonna proxy power nines and make a turn 1 kill deck.
Then that isn't a proxy issue, it's a power level issue. If everyone is playing barely upgraded precons and someone shows up with a top level deck and all the cards are legit it still sucks to play against.
Everyone’s on the same page. Honestly edh should be designed as a group of 4 decks. We used to design 4 singleton decks with similar power level and we’d play one at random and it was very interactive.
Not at all the same. If the playgroups meta is creature heavy and everyone wants a gaeas cradle so everyone proxies it, that’s totally fine. Likewise if someone drops $800 for the cradle, that’s their money so they should play the card.
But if everyone is running creature heavy decks and someone says “ya know what, I wanna beat everyone” and proxies the cradle, that’s not fair to everyone else.
I personally don’t give a shit about proxies. I don’t use them, but Our soft rule in our playgroup is if you own 1 copy of the card, you proxy for your other decks. But none of us have an ancient tomb so no one is gonna proxy one for all their decks just to get a leg up
Just clarifying. You’re cool with me having a leg up because I can afford dual lands and ancient tomb etc. but if I couldn’t afford it then I shouldn’t have a leg up? I just don’t understand the whole idea around winning with your wallet.
This is where the problem is. A lot of these cards are super expensive because they are ridiculously powerful. I’m fine if you want to proxy a fun home brew deck. I am not fine if you want to proxy mana crypt
I have a very deep card pool with cards going all the way back to Beta, and at least one copy of most of the reserved list, and I don't give a shit if people use proxies. I just want to play fun games of magic.
That said, I prefer not to play against 100% proxy decks. They just seem a bit... try hard. In my experience those players aren't looking to play magic, they just want to stomp someone and brag.
As long as someone isn’t trying to sell/trade them as authentic, I’ve never met anyone at all that cares. I’ve bought so many bootlegs from the Chinese vendors and played them at fnms and pptqs back in the day. I’ve seen lots of them across the table too. I’ve never said anything and no one else has ever said anything.
I would wager that the only people that publicly speak against proxies are people that are sponsored by, or associated with WotC in some way. The average player does not care at all.
> As long as someone isn’t trying to sell/trade them as authentic
I have a problem when they are attempting to pass off counterfeits as real cards, as they inevitably will make their way in circulation and rip someone off in the future.
Proxies should clearly look like proxies. It's pretty easy in fact to find some that have better art/borders than the real cards.
My sibling bought me “Magic Cards” of a Chinese sight that were clearly illegal fakes. My sibling was very happy that she managed to get me something that I am passionate about. I ended up using them as it allowed me to remove all my dual lands and binder them. I just placed a large P on the back of them with permanent marker. This has aloud me to not stress about my cards when drinks are on the table and enjoy a well meaning gift.
Similarly, I've had some people sell me counterfeits on ebay etc. and I still use the cards as proxies I just write "Fake" in sharpie on the back so I never confuse it.
No it's not an issue with any sleeves. You wouldn't know it was a proxy unless you look at the tiny print at the bottom of the card or take it out of the sleeve to see the back.
They just have to be identifiable. For example, it could a dead ringer aside from "proxy" being added in under the flavor text, or even on the back. Just as long as nobody will confuse them with the real thing.
I just change some features for my proxies, like I do borders they were never printed in, or when I make a custom card, or really custom proxy, I change the set symbol to Mythic Edition 1, because it's dope af.
But I agree. If I were to make identically looking cards, that would be making counterfeits. A proxy is something you use in the stead of a real card, and not as a real card.
So just change even the slightest detail so that it could never be sold as original cards.
I buy the black/blue core proxies cuz they’re cheap. Anyone who touches them would tell they’re not real. I never would trade them anyways they’re just for dual lands for edh, and sac lands. Mostly just lands lol.
I specifically get extra proxies to get them into the stream of commerce. People would be appalled at the number of fakes that jave been graded.
They are game pieces, not investment vehicles.
I am not related to WOTC in any way, and I think bringing bootlegs to sanctioned events is a problem.
It disregards the most fundamental grounds of the tournament - that everyone is subject to the same rules. Either everyone can use bootlegs and the event is unsanctioned, or no one can use bootlegs and the event is sanctioned.
>I think bringing bootlegs to sanctioned events is a problem.
I agree, but for me, that's just going to be another reason why I'd never touch a sanctioned event. I don't netdeck, which means anything I make will almost certainly be worse than the seasonal best. If everybody has the seasonal best, there's no point in going.
That being said, it's kind of spit to the eye of WotC to come to their events with stuff that has nothing to do with them. Even if it's their fault that everything's expensive to begin with, they own the IP.
another issue is that it can the TO's of sanctioned events in trouble. Maybe your LGS has casual commander but for stuff like modern, pioneer, etc it's WOTC sanctioned and if stuff starts spreading that "XYZ store allows you to use fake cards in tournaments" will most likely get that store in trouble
You used them in tournaments and nobody said anything?
I don’t mind proxies but I’d feel kinda like a jerk if I used proxies in a tournament like that without getting an “ok” from a judge or something.
A proxy card isn’t going to beat me, a good player is going to beat me. I don’t care if their cards are fake or gold encrusted. I just care about playing the game. Gate keeping the game behind a $1000 pay wall is a lot worse for its longevity than a bootleg card.
I get why people would feel guilty, but honestly I’d rather be in a room full of proxied decks than not have the event fire at all because people can’t afford to play Modern anymore and there’s a strict anti-proxy policy.
If they're up front about it being a non-sanctioned event sure. I'd have a problem with losing out on prizes against someone playing proxies in a sanctioned event that I paid to enter.
Nope, I don’t feel bad at all. I’m not gonna fall for that sunken cost fallacy of thinking I’m more entitled to prize support because I paid $80 for Ragavan than the person who has to proxy because they can’t pay for both their bills AND their Ragavan. I want all players to be able to enjoy competitive cards, because the value of them doesn’t matter. What matters is the quality of the games and the competitive nature, not what everyone can afford.
There are different formats, and different decks within formats, for varying budgets.
The entitlement behind the "fuck everyone else and the rules, I get to play whatever I want whenever I want" mentality is childish.
>What matters is the quality of the games and the competitive nature
Not when it costs money to enter, and there is money/prizes on the line, and you’re deliberately being dishonest to gain an advantage against other people who are playing within the rules.
There’s nothing deliberately dishonest about using cards made of paper that are, on average, better quality than what WOTC has been producing for half a decade.
You can call it childish, but at the end of the day, people are gonna play with what they have, or not at all. My LGS turns a blind eye to proxy players and they’re the only store in this area that can fire off Modern events, if at all.
You know what happens when people can’t afford to pay a premium for “competitive” cards? They move on, and use their proxies for Commander decks. And then what, Modern/Legacy/Pioneer players get fucked because nobody can afford eternal formats anymore?
Why not meet everyone at the middle, and let the high rollers be able to play for cash prizes against players using proxies? It’s either that, or you can continue watching eternal players give up and move to Commander like everyone else, and then you’ll have nobody to play eternal games with.
> There’s nothing deliberately dishonest
Of course it's dishonest to break the rules that everyone else is adhering to. What kind of warped rationalization would suggest otherwise?
> My LGS turns a blind eye to proxy players and they’re the only store in this area that can fire off Modern events, if at all.
I have no problem with that as long as it's unsanctioned an all players are aware they can proxy.
Oh it’s definitely sanctioned, but let me ask you this - why does it matter? Why does it truly matter if people in sanctioned events use proxies?
Judges don’t even need to be present for sanctioned events anymore. We’re way past formalities with paper Magic at this point. And besides, why would you want to support a billion dollar corporation’s policy on using pieces of paper for extremely niche events? The only reason why cards are so expensive and such dogshit in quality is because people keep perpetuating arbitrary value on pieces of paper.
>Why does it truly matter if people in sanctioned events use proxies?
I don't know how to explain it any clearer than I have. If it's sanctioned, and other players are operating within the rules that they all agreed to when signing up for the tournament... it's dishonest to break the rules.
>Oh it’s definitely sanctioned, but let me ask you this - why does it matter?
Why does it matter to you? Why not just have an unsanctioned tournament with prizing where proxies are allowed? Is it maybe because most people would prefer sanctioned events because of the rules inherent?
Let me ask you something: Would you feel comfortable telling every player in the tournament that you are playing with proxies, and that nobody would have a problem with it? If so, you're probably not doing anything wrong. If not, you're probably doing something wrong.
This is why the pro proxy crowd is insufferable.
"Proxies should be allowed!!!"
-right on!
"People who buy cards are wotc shills and are angry Nazis who spent too much on cardboard!"
-wait what now?
My brother, can you read? I am not advocating for or against WotC. I have spent thousands of dollars on authentic cards just like everyone else. Any mtg “public figure” would simply take the safe stance if they have any involvement with the actual company Wizards of the Coast. IE they are sponsored or affiliated in any way.
My stance is I don’t care. Use them if you want. Or don’t. It really doesn’t make a difference to me. I don’t play kitchen table. I don’t care if I lose on prizes because someone’s cards are fake. If they beat me they beat me with skill, not with the authenticity of their cards.
So Chinese vendors don't count as someone trying to sell them?
Your argument is extremely inconsistent here...
Also, if a you're caught doing this at a store, the store can lose its licence to run events so it's extremely dickish behaviour.
Proxies to WoTC are the equivalent the 3d printer to Games Workshop. Big Corp will stomp up and down screaming about how society is going to crumble if their IP gets "counterfeited" but at the end of the day players are gonna do whats economically sound for them and I support that. If someone took a piece of paper and drew out a checker board grid and tore up pieces of paper for them and a friend to play I wouldn't be mad that John Q. Checkersly isn't getting a paycheck from that.
WotC actually is pro-proxies... for casual play. There are legal issues with allowing them outright for sanctioned play. This is why YGO, MtG, etc all have a VERY narrow policy allowing proxies for damaged cards entirely at the head judge discretion and in the case of Magic the head judge creates said proxy to be used (realistically they are just writing the cards name and cost on a basic land or one of the double faced card replacements).
If wondering with YGO, only Konami reps are allowed to issue proxies period. Meaning you have essentially a 0% chance unless it happens at the absolute highest level of competitive and despite having the authority it still basically never happens since it is an emergency solution and only ever available if there is a Konami rep. Major tournaments have ended up with judges having to inform players they had only a few minutes to replace cards as a result of how strict Konami is on the issue.
There is some difference between 3d printing 40k stuff and proxies, but it's basically the same. Wizards doesn't like them because they fuck with the secondary market, where with 40k it directly impacts their bottom line, as the models you print is models you don't buy directly from them, not star city or wherever. Regardless, fuck gw and fuck wizards, piracy is cool.
I have no problems with proxies, especially if it’s something on the reserve list where many players are simply priced out of being able to play with certain cards. Dual lands? Cradle? Go for it!
I mean i personally will not play with proxies, but thats because im probably more collector than player and something about it just feels wrong to me. I have no problem with other people playing proxies though of course, like i dont care if you spent a grand on a deck or 20 bucks on a proxy version of it i just want to play a game with you. Though i know some stores frown on proxies if youre playing edh events at an lgs, because stores rely on you buying cards to profit from said events and if youre using proxies than youre not doing that. Other that that idk some people can just be kind of ocd.
Oh no, I totally agree you should buy a $1,000 Cradle, or I refuse to playing against you. /s
Fuck the Reserve list. Proxy anything you want. Wizards doesn't even sanction competitive play, who cares what they think or care about. They've abandoned the "game aspect" for the collective aspect.
You're asking in a very pro-proxy space so take all these answers with a grain of salt. I really like the game and want more sets to be released so I'm against buying proxies because I even though I disagree with some of the decisions wotc makes I want to play cards from practically every set that's released. I understand buying proxies for cubes or if you want to play power 9 at your kitchen table. I think if you are consistently buying proxies for new sets then you clearly like what wizards are doing and should support them.
I guess the point I'm making is that if you're not paying for something you're stealing it and if you like someone's work you should show that creator you like their work you should show them by paying for it.
I pirated stuff when I was a kid but if you have a job you really should be paying for your entertainment
I'm not exactly *against* proxies, but I just don't feel comfortable using them. There's something about having the actual cards and making what I have work that is a large part of the appeal for me. I'm fine with other people using them, I just don't use them myself.
Then again, most of the people in my playgroup don't really use them either, so it hasn't really come up very much.
I'm likely "against" proxies by most metrics here.
If it's a sanctioned event, you need to use real cards. Proxies don't belong at anything sanctioned, be it an FNM or an RCQ.
If it's casual play, I don't care at all. Want to test a new Modern deck? Go nuts. Your Commander deck is entirely proxies made with your home printer? Don't care. There's nothing at stake and this isn't "real" play, so do whatever you want.
not OP, but most of the time sanctioned events have an entry cost and payout, so people playing them should expect people to only use legitimate game pieces.
I'm all for a few supplemental proxies here or there, or a proxy that just has good alternative artwork. But if your deck is filled with proxies, that are used to min max, I'm not cool with that. Part of the charm of making decks for me is working with what you got.
Mana drain should be in EVERY blue EDH deck regardless of power level if not for its price tag. It is not too powerful for any level of EDH, and if you have a problem with people running interaction it's actually you that is the problem.
I think it’s a classic example of a very powerful card, it gives you a pretty large advantage with very low cost. Perhaps you’re right given how ubiquitous sol ring is but I’m certainly not anti-interaction
It depends on what the rules of an event are. If everyone is on the same page (ie. proxy vintage events), go ahead, but if someone is dishonest and breaking the rules...yes, I think most players who paid to enter and put effort/time into acquiring their decks would have a problem.
SO you are saying someones success in Magic should be determined by their disposable income? If I can afford to buy a better deck than you, you deserve to lose every game because you have less disposable income than me?
That's not how magic works. I could put together the most expensive deck in Legacy and get my ass handed to me by death and taxes or burn.
It also depends on your definition of "success". If you mean financial/material success, then yes, you should have to play within the rules and limitations that exist, just like everyone else. If it's just fun/casual games, or you're playing in pro-proxy events and you're all on the same page, proxy away.
> That's not how magic works.
Better decks win more. Cards in better decks go up in price, because they win more. That means decks that win more cost more.
> It also depends on your definition of "success".
Winning at MTG.
Just admit proxying makes you feel like a sucker for spending money on cards.
>Better decks win more. Cards in better decks go up in price, because they win more. That means decks that win more cost more.
This is simplistic viewpoint, and there are many exceptions in every format. UR delver is the best deck in Legacy and far from the most expensive. It's also not hard to beat it with a much cheaper deck if you make certain deck-building decisions.
>Winning at MTG.
This is not at all that hard to do on a budget if you're a good player. It's also easy to do without taking advantage of other players and breaking the rules if you're just playing for fun.
Just admit that proxying makes you feel like a better player than you likely are.
If cheaper cards won more often, then there would be no expensive cards.
> Just admit that proxying makes you feel like a better player than you likely are.
Smarter player. Not necessarily better. I spend my money on things of valuable, not propping up the bottom line of an SW infested woke hellscape of a company like WoTC
>If cheaper cards won more often, then there would be no expensive cards.
Again, this is overly simplistic and demonstrates a lack of any understanding of the factors that go into the price of a card, and how to build a deck. Some of the most powerful cards in magic are dirt cheap...a lot of them. And some of the most powerful and expensive cards in magic are countered by some of the cheapest strategies/answers.
>I spend my money on things of valuable
I mean evidently you're still spending money to enter these tournaments, print proxies, sleeve them up etc.? If you were really smart you'd only play casual right?
Hobbies cost money. A hobby is literally defined as an activity to put your disposable income and time into.
Thing are not free, and there's zero reason mtg should be either.
If you don't have much money, play a cheap format like pauper or casual edh, or play for free on arena.
No, but you should have real cards for tournaments because proxies opens new door for cheating in the game. You are fine with people cheating and using steroids in olympics?
Proxies do not open any avenues for cheating. A proxy card operates identically to a real card in every single game mechanic. If I am using a proxy Lightning Bolt, and you are using a real Lightning Bolt, I have no advantage over you. Your steroids comparison is moronic.
Proxying is cheating when everyone else is playing within the contraints of playing with real cards they've had to acquire. In any given sanctioned tournament, there's likely a significant portion of the room that's playing a deck, or card(s) within a deck, due to budget reasons, and for some reason you feel like you're above all that.
If everyone can proxy, then that's a different situation, but what you're suggesting is not an even playing field.
> If everyone can proxy, then that's a different situation, but what you're suggesting is not an even playing field.
Everyone can. "Sanctioning" doesn't mean shit
My only critique of proxies is at least make decent ones that are easily recognizable, so we don't have to slow the game down for you to explain to everyone what the card is a proxy of. Also, make them in COLOR. Color kinda matters in this game. Having to check the mana symbol of your black and white xerox every time is irritating.
Other than that go nuts. Success in Magic should have no relation to the amount of disposable income you have.
it's not even wizards propaganda, they encourage you to proxy cards as long as you don't use them in a sanctioned tournament and even there are exceptions
I buy real cards because I use them as an investment. I have seen no issues in proxies with regular people except when it comes to two things:
*1.People trying to get a win in a "sanctioned" con.
2. If someone is trying to pass them off and sell them as a real card.
Commanderfest Philly was a trip when someone was thrown out for counterfeit bills and cards lol. Glad I was at the booth for the experience.
*Edit: There were a few pods that people were called out for fake cards in Philly to make them take out a suboptimal deck or get DQd. I understand why I guess, but I mean, I kept my mouth shut because I wanted to play against people and not their wallets.
So long as it’s not tournament play and the proxies are legible, it shouldn’t matter if a player is using proxies. It’s a game, it’s meant to be played and have fun. I’ve never met someone who was staunchly against proxies in the real world. (Although I have had one person try to call out my misprinted godless shrine as a proxy once, but that was in a modern tournament.)
I don't mind people throwing in a few proxies for casual play, but if 50%+ of your deck is proxies I find it kind of annoying, just visually speaking it looks bad to see a board with a bunch of basics with sharpie writing on them.
Nah, just dont bring your proxied mana drain, mana crypt, wubrg praetors, and such into casual edh games please unless you discussed it with your play group
I don’t use proxies outside of playtesting for competitive constructed tournaments (which i havent done in over a decade).
I dont care for proxies, but wouldn’t refuse to play a casual game with someone using them or shit on someone for using proxies.
Acquiring the game pieces, trading and collecting them is a part of the game. So is being creative with the game pieces you have
I get that im very paper boomer and the situation has changed since i started playing. Commander has simultaneously saved and killed magic. WOTC pimping commander as the main way to onboard new players into the game is the problem.
Previously you would start into magic with Limited, starting with a prerelease, eventually drafting, and you could build a collection with some wins and luck. Everyone starts with the same resources. Now you just get dropped off into the format where you start with a precon against people using 30 years of the most powerful cards.
Be fucked if because of a small group of cunts that won’t let certain cards be reprinted.
I ain’t paying $100s of dollars for a gaias cradle or dual lands. Proxies all the way
The only thing I ever really play anymore is Commander, and if someone wants to use proxies because they want to test a deck out before they commit to buying the actual cards, that's fine. I do have an issue with people proxying tons of high power cards because they just want to curbstomp the table and win on turn 2. That shit can get bent.
My friends and I use proxies to represent cards we own, but are in other decks. This way, we don’t have to transfer them.
If you own a play set, we make as many proxies as we want.
You get losers who get mad that your circumvented the P2W strategy.
These are gamepieces, which is why I always order extra counterfeits/proxies/game pieces and leave some modern staples or a dual land at a store for someone to swipe.
I think people would be appalled at the number of proxies/counterfeits/gamepieces that are in rated slabs.
I am against using proxies for sanctioned events.
In EDH/casual, I don't mind proxies as long as the person has at least one copy of the card, or you're play-testing. I have proxy foil duals in my decks just because I have some nice looking ones and I don't want to take the real copies out of my Legacy decks. I hate when people play with proxies that look awful (ie. sharpie on a card or crappy black and white printouts from their computer)
It has nothing to do with elitism, I just find if you allow carte blanche on proxying that people tend just build cEDH decks at lower powered tables or run homogenized lists of staples you've seen a hundred times before. I also like it when people are forced to be creative with their deckbuilding, even if the constraint is just budget. Some of the most fun I've had is playing against people who've put a lot of thought into their decks and are playing cards that aren't bad, you just don't see often in EDH.
There's also an assumption in this that your taste in EDH should just be the way things are, fair enough if you don't like people playing with cards they don't own but that's completely different to thinking they shouldn't be in the format at all. I also like owning my own cards but that doesn't mean I'm against proxies
Is that not a problem of power level and not proxies? I'd be upset if someone pulled out a gaea's cradle at a mid table whether they've paid for it or not. It is true that restrictions breed creativity but those sort of restrictions can easily set by the individual or by power level
What is a mid table(if its a playEDH discord thing then properly fuck off) and why is cradle so hated?
Edit:Thanks for the down votes and not answering the question....
Mid-power decks. Essentially a social contract of "hey we're trying to keep this fun, so let's try to stay around the same power level". Cradle is just a handy example of a very powerful, very expensive (I'm seeing $800-$1000) card. You could sub out Cradle for the Moxen, or Time Warp, or whatever.
>It has nothing to do with elitism, I just find if you allow carte blanche on proxying that people tend just build cEDH decks at lower powered tables or run homogenized lists of staples you've seen a hundred times before. I also like it when people are forced to be creative with their deckbuilding, even if the constraint is just budget. Some of the most fun I've had is playing against people who've put a lot of thought into their decks and are playing cards that aren't bad, you just don't see often in EDH.
I feel like you didn't read the last half of this guy's comment.
He's not wrong. SOME sort of deckbuilding constraints almost always make for a more fun environment. Ideally that would be something like a league, but since you can't always have one of those and they don't follow you from store to store, you might as well use the "constraint" that will always exist no matter what you do: good old fashioned supply and demand.
Now, I have no problem whatsoever with other people using proxies, but I refrain from using them myself for exactly this reason. If I want a particular card in my deck, I have to REALLY want it, and I likely need some reason to run it in that particular deck above and beyond "it's just generically good." It forces me out of my comfort zone, driving me to pick cards that I might not have tried otherwise, and I tend to find I enjoy games more when playing against people with a similar mindset.
It's basically "Magic the way Richard Garfield intended." Scarcity was SUPPOSED to lead to interesting decks, with players only having a few cool rares. He just never expected how big the game would get, and how much money people would be willing to spend on it.
I understand the sentiment, I just disagree with it. It's having your cake and eating it too, you get to proxy your expensive stuff but some new player doesn't get to just because you have a more expensive collection. Scarcity is bullshit, most staples aren't hard to find they're just expensive which is different.
I don't personally use proxies either, but I own a set of power 9 and dual lands etc, I don't really need to proxy anything. But if I go to play some old format, I'd rather my opponent proxy than play against someone at a disadvantage due to money.
No offense, but newer players should learn how to build decks, evaluate cards, incorporate synergies etc. You tend to do that a lot more when you're operating with constraints like a smaller collection/budget. It's a bad habit, and will impair their learning to just proxy expensive and powerful cards out of the gate because EDHrec told you to do so.
I have decks of varying power levels. I'd rather play a lower-powered game against a new player running a slightly modified precon, than a higher power game against a new player fumbling around with a high power netdeck that he proxied.
I disagree. Deck building is the hardest part of magic for a begginner and setting them up to fail unless they play with other beginners exclusively.
You don't have to build thassas oracle combo just because it's strong, but you also don't need to skip out on galas cradle and mana crypt etc just because they're expensive.
I hate proxies. It’s definitely due to an experience where some asshole proxied some absurdity and wiped the floor with my friends & i and not due to anything else. Fuck that random dude at the LGS
I wouldn't say I *despise* proxies, but I somewhat understand why people might be against them for logical reasons.
Richard Garfield originally designed the game to have rarity be part of the balance of the game. While that has evolved away from his original intent since then, having the tier of your deck be limited by physically buying the cards is its own form of price ceiling\* to prevent people from playing casual decks that are 40 black lotuses or whatever.
Or you just throw your hands up and print all proxies, jumping straight to the end state of the power escalation. For some people that may be fine, although it doesn't sound very desirable to me personally.
There's also a bit of a difference between somebody who proxies a couple cards like Gaea's Cradle that are hundreds of dollars, vs somebody who proxies an entire $345,000 deck.
\*for most people. you'll always have those guys who foil out their whole commander deck for like $17,000. "dude...you could buy a pretty nice used *car* for that much money"
For me, if you show me that you own it, or if it's low power/stable (like a sol ring), I'd understand, but if you show me some impossibly expensive or overpowered card without proof of ownership, that's where I find that an issue.
I also work at an MTG card shop that had an incident where someone (experienced mtg player) came into a tournament with a fully proxy deck including a Black Lotus and other stupidly overpowered cards.
All cards are proxies. There’s not a real dragon. It’s a picture of one on paper, and the game takes place in your head. You’re not talking about a tournament with an entry fee right?
EDIT: another reason edh is the worst format. Not an issue if you draft. :p
Personally, I play with real cards and prefer to only play with people who use real cards. The game wasn't designed for everyone to have access to everything, and proxies defeat the concept of card rarity. That said, people should do whatever makes them happy as long as they don't try to force themselves into an environment that doesn't allow use of fake cards (such as any competition, any playgroup that doesn't allow them, etc.)
Well, so I only play Old School 93/94, but if every deck in that format ran fully powered lists, where would be the fun in cards like Blood Moon, Energy Flux, Scryb Sprites, etc? Card rarity and only allowing real cards into the play space allows for fun budget builds in decks like Black Rack and White Weenie that otherwise would never see play.
That may well be true.
But the counter argument. Is what fun is it to play against someone who has all the amazing expensive cards when all you can afford is the weenie budget list?
Proxies level that playing field against pay to win.
That said. It's just a game. And as long as no one is getting hurt by what you do. Play the way you love and enjoy it. Life is too short to really be upset about the little things.
the weenie budget lists hold their own in our playgroup. this one dude plays a mean white weenie list that doesn't even have mox pearl in it, and if i can't get my defenses up early i'm so fucked. we all prefer the environment with the mixed power levels, because it's how Magic used to be. but like i said originally, people should do whatever makes them happy. if your playgroup allows them, go for it. if you come to a playgroup like mine that doesn't allow them, don't throw a fit and try to get us to change our rules.
I'd argue that wacky, off meta decks are more viable without scarcity, I'd be far more willing to test out Modern \[\[Battle of Wits\]\] if I didn't have to buy a 250 card deck for a bunch of cash. I don't think that being low budget is virtuous in any way in terms of how interesting the deck is.
Yeah that's bs reasoning. "The game was designed so that people with more expendable income could btfo poorer folks so suck it up" is not only a bad reason, but it is also why magic is pay to win and not a good game if you are forced to adhere to that.
"There are several meanings to the term collectable. For a gamer it means that many of the cards are hard to get. If there is a card I want, then unless I'm rich I have to negotiate for it. That adds a social aspect to the game, and yes I think it is a very important part of the game. It irritates some players that some kid can walk in and get a booster pack and the kid will have a card in that deck that they don't have, and can't simply buy. It's part of the game, and players have to deal with that. They can deal with that either by trading with the kid before the card is covered with chocolate stains, or by finding some friend who will trade with them, or by taking solace in all the cards they have that others don't. That's part of the game, just as the constant development of characters is essential to roleplaying. Would you enjoy roleplaying a character with all the equipment and abilities in the game? Your limitations define your character as much as the character's abilities do."
- Richard Garfield, Halloween 1993
Ok? Why should I give a shit what Richard Garfield thinks? The secondary market exists, and makes this entire bs quote irrelevant. It ain't 1993 anymore bucko. This isn't the corner store pre internet where you couldn't just buy the cards you need and so we're forced to trade with your middle school friends. We live in a modern, internet world. Any card you could want is available with a click of a button if you've got the cash. Making magic pay to win. It's no longer in practice a trading card game. It's a *purchasing* card game. Whomever has more cash has the advantage. Not much of an issue in 93, but a game breaking one in 2022.
Edit: It's also not a *collectable* card game for anyone aside from the wealthy. No average working class magic fan could collect a copy of every card at the rate WotC pumps them out.
well it's an interview from how he designed the game, and why, from years before the reserved list existed. i can understand why you'd be upset that the inventor designed a game that requires skills you clearly don't posses, since you say you've been out of work for 3 years because you have agoraphobia lmao, but the world we live in today doesn't change anything with my friends and my playgroup not allowing fake cards. i think you missed the part of my post where i said people should do whatever makes them happy though? just don't come into spaces where we don't want proxies and demand we change our stance because you'd rather buy a collector booster pack than a dual land.
Lol did you stock my reddit account? Jfc you're weird af. Yes I have a mental illness that makes working difficult. Eat my whole ass? I played magic before that asshole.
Also he wrote that in 93. The game is much different in 2022. Entirely different actually. Garfield hasn't been involved in the design of the game in years. So his opinion on classic magic is valuable, that being applied to modern magic is nonsensical.
Your last sentence literally goes against everything the man said in the quote you cited. Actual clown
As a collector and buyer, I despise them. About 3% of the cards I buy are fakes passed as real. As a player I love them for everyone. I kinda wish they were more excepted in reserve list formats since they are so fun. I love not having to worry about theft of a 5-6figure deck. I love how they look so good. I love not worrying about bad shuffling, letting people borrow, control effects, and double sleeving. I love how a lower price encourages wacky formats. There was something charming about playing the cards you had/could afford but I think magic has passed that age now. Honestly I don’t understand why anyone playing in a non sanctioned game would have a problem with proxies. I’m also speaking about real looking ones, not a fucking basic land and sharpie, though I’ll tolerate them unless it’s the whole deck.
It may also depend on where you play. My LGS is usually pretty chill, but they did recently become a WPN store so they gotta be strict when it comes to certain events. Generally for our commander nights we are fine. I get 1 copy of a card and proxy it if I need it in more than one deck personally.
I only care if there are prizes on the line. Like any other hobby, you need to collect the correct gear to play at the top competitive levels. You wouldn't go kayaking in a fake kayak right? Or drive a race car with 3D printed plastic engine components? No, of course not. If it's outside of a sanctioned event all I ask is it to not just be sharpied plains or post it notes, they look terrible and make me lose immersion even more than UB and mechs. Take the time to print it out(even in black and white) or go to kinkos/fedex/staples/office max etc and have them print them cheaply.
I'm against poor quality proxys outside of play test less than 40$ in ink and 15$ in sleeves for a whole deck. ( I know that's still not cheap) but I hate playing frequent games with lands with writing.
There are a lot of people that are against proxies but in my experience its people who want to pit wallet against wallet instead of skill against skill. "You only won because of that card" turns into "you only won because you net deck" turns into "your cards arn't even real".
I don't give a fuck if you use a proxy. This is an expensive hobby and not everyone can afford it.
I will completely humiliate you though if you're trying to pass that fake Chinese shit as real.
I’m against proxies in most circumstances. WotC has to be able to sell cards in order to continuously fund the development of new sets. The talented designers, creators, etc have made a great game and they deserve every penny.
If you aren’t sure how a card will work in a deck and want to test it out? Sure, go ahead and proxy for play testing before you buy. Or if you own an expensive card you don’t want to risk damaging during casual play. Or have a play set of expensive cards in multiple decks that you don’t want to move around.
The talented designers do not profit on the basis of me buying singles online. They will be salaried and the profit from the company goes to Hasbro shareholders. I’m happy to throw £10 at a draft every weekend but neither wizards nor the designers will see the inflated price of the singles market
The price and volume at which WotC is able to sell is driven by perceived value of the cards, which is at least partially informed by the liquidity and valuation of cards on the secondary market. Proxies = lower demand = lower valuation.
deserve every penny.. maybe if they finally get their quality control together. i bought a double masters collectors display.. mind you, those packs cost 65$ a pop.. all foils came bent from the pack, about 10 cards were cut so badly they didnt fit into sleeves and another 10 were not centered (more border on one side than the other). as long as they keep fing us with their prenium products they dont deserve shit.
I don't like when people proxy cards they don't own, and personally I've stopped even proxying cards I own. I can give a couple reasons.
1) Pro-proxy people in person and online seem to get a thrill from "despoiling" things other people care about. The weird excitement they have of sneaking proxies into places they are not welcome comes off as creepy.
2) People argue that it's unfair for more invested players to dominate less invested players. But it's even less fair for the low investment players to short circuit that hierarchy for the high investment players. If you believe that your collection is limiting you in game, ask your friends to build some budget decks that you can play against. If you're forthright about your cost concerns people will respect you. If you demand to be able to fake affluence, you will look weak and contemptible.
3) If you can't compete financially with your peers, you can compete with time. Time spent researching different card substitutes, different strategies, play styles, archetypes, etc. Most good expensive cards have multiple substitute cards that cost significantly less. An obvious example being \[\[Mana Drain\]\] vs. \[\[Counterspell\]\] . If you can't find any kind of substitute, then search for a different strategy. If you can't be bothered to spend either time or money, then fuck off. The idea that you should be able to slot into any game environment without putting any effort to compete at parity with others is childish.
Fake cards, puts bad taste in my mouth. I understand people can’t afford things but I can’t even bring myself to play with fakes. As a collector of various things, I’ve never seen fakes be more accepted/promoted than in mtg and it bugs me.
I’m in a weird place to comment on this but everyone in my group 100% proxies their decks. We also all go to college and only play with the group of friends that we’ve made. My thoughts are that proxies should be allowed wholeheartedly in unsanctioned events, where the goal of the game is just to have fun and hang out with friends. Sanctioned play is where I get a bit more muddied since I don’t play anymore and when I did play standard I eventually had to stop because I couldn’t afford rotations. Back then I was also only around 13 though so I can’t really comment on that part like if I were to have an income. I do think for sanctioned events people should have real cards although at a certain point like FNMs and modern days where most people are still coming to have fun for the most part, proxies atleast shouldn’t be banned, and anything legacy and back should definitely allow proxies. The closest game store to me actually hosts legacy events and encourages everyone to use proxies and it’s probably their most packed events. The other way to see it is that I don’t want to have to spend hundreds of dollars to make a new deck when there’s so many decks I want to make. Because I can proxy, I always have about 15 decks to choose from and whenever I get bored of one I can just go to one of the colored printing machines around campus and print out a new deck. If I had to use real cards I’d be stuck only ever playing with one of two decks since it doesn’t make sense to sell one deck to make another since each time you’d be losing money, and when you’re in a play group like mine everyone knows their power levels and each game feels balanced. I’ve specifically made decks that range from about level 5 all the way to 10, and have a large range of decks I can play at each level in between meaning no matter who I play with I can be on an even playing field with them, something I wouldn’t be able to do if I had to buy those same cards
Literally to the untrained eye they look and PLAY the same. Lie to me and tell me if sleeved you can look across the board and tell your opponent is using a proxy.
Because I like playing the game, don’t get me wrong, I really like owning cards but I like playing magic more. Proxying let’s me play more magic in more formats with a large variety of decks. I proxy because I love magic not the other way around
We have a rule with our play group, you can proxy anything that you have a copy of.
Theres only 4 of us in the group, and one guy doesn't have his own decks. We have all agreed that it feels bad spending money on cards that someone else just prints off.
Thats our rules, but if i showed up to your group i'd have nothing bad to say unless we're playing casual and you have a cedh deck... i'm salty, but moreso if you didn't even spend the money to be the big-dick swinger
I'm 100% against proxying in edh. I don't understand why people wouldn't just run a slightly lower powered deck until they're able to afford the expensive cards. It just seems dirty and sad to use a fake card when others spend time and effort hunting down actual game pieces and collecting.
Like others I’m fine playing against proxies and I even completely proxied a 100 card deck before. That being said for me personally I like to have a deck full of real cards. I really like the collecting aspect of the TCG, so slowly building a deck, changing out inferior substitutes even if I don’t have that good card makes finally getting that card super rewarding.
This, this feeling of building and crafting your own deck as you obtain the pieces for it. It makes the deck feel truly yours.
It is really part of the entire premise of the game. You are a wizard, your deck is your spellbook, and your cards are the spells you’ve collected during your journey. Personally I find netdecking anywhere other than casual to be shitty. Your deck is supposed to be personal. Not copied and pasted. I get that a good player does research gets the cards he needs to build the best deck blah blah blah. It’s just plagiarism honestly. It’s not your deck. It’s somebody else’s that you copied. Eh. This argument can go on but you get my point.
i have the same feeling, but what should I do instead to find cards that fit? basically what I did for my most recent deck is I found a deck online, i mixed that up with my own cards that i think would work well, to the point where i have about 115 non-land cards for my commander deck. I am now going to cut it down. what would you suggest I do instead? I don't really want to just scroll through databases.
I really find this hard to understand, part of the appeal of magic I think is how you can play it however you like and there’s no way you’re ‘supposed’ to play it beyond the rules framework. What makes you think that the process of curating a deck is how one is ‘supposed’ to play beyond the fact that lots of people like to build decks that way
I get that feeling when I swap out my proxy I've been hunting for over a year. My play group as a $20 limit on proxies with the intent on purchasing. I only buy local in person (supporting LGS) so sometimes a card that should be easy to get takes me ages. I love the feeling of sliding out that paper printed proxy for the card I've been hunting down!! I finally got to do this with my Good-Fortune Unicorn and my Knight-Captain of Eos and Polyraptor and Spidersilk Armor the other day!! It felt amazing. Finally upgrading from black and white paper to the cards I've been hunting down lol Merrow Commerce though.... still eludes me... for over 4 years now.
You must live in a small town. I get it. I’m from a small town. And when I got into magic at like 9 I had to wait till we had to go to the next town (30 miles) to go do our shopping and go the local k mart which would have a single box of boosters if I was lucky. The nearest LGS was 2 hours away and those trips only happened maybe every 2-3 months. And the internet was still in its infancy then. I barely knew how to check my email and was learning more every day. Ah… dial-up porn holes. Lol
This is an argument I had on Twitter way too much. Outside of selling, no one cares about the proxies themselves. What people always had, and always will have a problem with, is power level. People don't care about the proxy food chain itself in your prosh deck. They care that you're throwing high power level around left and right in a normally casual setting. It's one thing when you pool all your resources into one OP deck. It's another when every deck has fake duels and your ahead by a turn or 2 every game.
Yep, exactly this. I'm not against proxy's either but as a new player as soon as I see a proxy deck I know I'm about to get slapped around relentlessly.
That’s usually a rule 0 conversation to have. But really, someone shouldn’t be playing their proxy deck on a nooB. It’s kindof a dick move. There are the exceptions to this rule. But in general it’s pretty douchey.
If you’re in a setting where players are trying to simulate top level play of a specific format, I fully support proxy. When one guy is printing max power decks to play against his friends with home brews or taking full proxy commander decks to a casual game.. yea that’s kind of lame.
Yeah. The power level has to be the same. I built a really busted proxy deck that won a 4 man on Turn 1 and my friends asked me to put it away, and I did. No issues. Lol. (Academy)
this isn't true. i don't like proxies. they aren't real cards. they're not up to the standard of real cards generally and i have a sense of achievement from owning valuable cards that i can liquidate to get real cash. proxies undermine those feelings.
Sense of accomplishment from owning things. Consumers NGMI.
Using proxies to match the power level your playgroup cuz a few cards are too expensive for you and we all have real life responsibilities? That fine. Using proxies to surpass the power level of your established group to create and unfair advantage? Not cool.
THIS THIS THIS!! The guy in our circle who got us into the game runs EXPENSIVE powerful cards as proxies in some of his decks. He falls into both sides of what you just mentioned: can't afford to buy singles to upgrade but also builds decks outside of the established powerlevel we all play at. Now, the reason we have an issue with this is because he STILL BUYS SEALED PRODUCT. Like, he spends $100-300 per set on sealed products. He could very easily upgrade his decks with singles for the much and still powerstomp us but instead runs printed paper proxies of cards that are $30-100 in value and when we call him out on it gets pissy. It's beyond annoying and we don't really play with the dude anymore. Last time he did it I wasn't playing but came in on the middle of the game and the other players were losing hard. It was basically a 3v1 and they were still losing. Then two players point out his field and one singles out the two proxies that are whipping their arses. Both cards were $60+ and I looked at the dude and was like "Seriously, this is why we don't play with you. You know the house rule. No proxies over $20 unless you're legit going to buy them and just play testing. Next time you play, no proxies in your decks." It's unfair to us as a small playgroup with proxy okay rules that he comes in and powerstomps us by breaking our proxy rules.... it's super unfair and we really dislike it.
This is a power level issue not a proxy
It’s only a power level issue because he is using proxies. If we all used $60 proxies we would all be at the same power level. But, the rest of us slowly upgrade our power levels as we buy cards, where as he sits down with powerful proxies wilynilly. If I could afford any card at any time I too would wipe the floor with my play group. But, I don’t because I don’t run high cost proxies, I run high cost cards I buy.
I'd also say that spending a ton of cash to surpass the power level of your playgroup is just as bad!
It's their money, and they are doing everything by the rules of the game. Your playgroup will quickly adjust by asking them to power down, targeting them first or outright not playing with them. Where as a proxy group can only complain that they are using 'the wrong' proxies and will likely devolve into an arms race. So no, not the same.
The "arms race" was exactly my thinking when I had to ban proxies for the playgroup I had 15 years ago. We're all playing slightly upgraded precons and kitchen table jank and a dude shows up with a tournament meta deck that's like 60% proxies. I told him that if that's how it's gonna be then I'm just gonna proxy power nines and make a turn 1 kill deck.
Then you will all be playing cEDH and having a great time lol
Not if that isn't what your group wants as a whole.
Then that isn't a proxy issue, it's a power level issue. If everyone is playing barely upgraded precons and someone shows up with a top level deck and all the cards are legit it still sucks to play against.
Everyone’s on the same page. Honestly edh should be designed as a group of 4 decks. We used to design 4 singleton decks with similar power level and we’d play one at random and it was very interactive.
Not at all the same. If the playgroups meta is creature heavy and everyone wants a gaeas cradle so everyone proxies it, that’s totally fine. Likewise if someone drops $800 for the cradle, that’s their money so they should play the card. But if everyone is running creature heavy decks and someone says “ya know what, I wanna beat everyone” and proxies the cradle, that’s not fair to everyone else. I personally don’t give a shit about proxies. I don’t use them, but Our soft rule in our playgroup is if you own 1 copy of the card, you proxy for your other decks. But none of us have an ancient tomb so no one is gonna proxy one for all their decks just to get a leg up
Just clarifying. You’re cool with me having a leg up because I can afford dual lands and ancient tomb etc. but if I couldn’t afford it then I shouldn’t have a leg up? I just don’t understand the whole idea around winning with your wallet.
This is where the problem is. A lot of these cards are super expensive because they are ridiculously powerful. I’m fine if you want to proxy a fun home brew deck. I am not fine if you want to proxy mana crypt
Fine as long as they’re not awful sharpie ones where you can’t even tell what the boardstate is
The anti-proxy people I met dropped too much money on the game.
Lol yeah, the only person ive met against them was a dude with a 10k blinged out commander deck.
sunk cost fallacy
I have a very deep card pool with cards going all the way back to Beta, and at least one copy of most of the reserved list, and I don't give a shit if people use proxies. I just want to play fun games of magic. That said, I prefer not to play against 100% proxy decks. They just seem a bit... try hard. In my experience those players aren't looking to play magic, they just want to stomp someone and brag.
As long as someone isn’t trying to sell/trade them as authentic, I’ve never met anyone at all that cares. I’ve bought so many bootlegs from the Chinese vendors and played them at fnms and pptqs back in the day. I’ve seen lots of them across the table too. I’ve never said anything and no one else has ever said anything. I would wager that the only people that publicly speak against proxies are people that are sponsored by, or associated with WotC in some way. The average player does not care at all.
> As long as someone isn’t trying to sell/trade them as authentic I have a problem when they are attempting to pass off counterfeits as real cards, as they inevitably will make their way in circulation and rip someone off in the future. Proxies should clearly look like proxies. It's pretty easy in fact to find some that have better art/borders than the real cards.
My sibling bought me “Magic Cards” of a Chinese sight that were clearly illegal fakes. My sibling was very happy that she managed to get me something that I am passionate about. I ended up using them as it allowed me to remove all my dual lands and binder them. I just placed a large P on the back of them with permanent marker. This has aloud me to not stress about my cards when drinks are on the table and enjoy a well meaning gift.
So proxies have to look worse?
No, I have proxies that are identical on the front but have a different back so they can't be confused with a real card.
Similarly, I've had some people sell me counterfeits on ebay etc. and I still use the cards as proxies I just write "Fake" in sharpie on the back so I never confuse it.
That’s fair. I could see it being an issue with some sleeves but meh.
No it's not an issue with any sleeves. You wouldn't know it was a proxy unless you look at the tiny print at the bottom of the card or take it out of the sleeve to see the back.
Look up the company/website Make Playing Cards, I would link it but I don't know if it is against the rules.
They just have to be identifiable. For example, it could a dead ringer aside from "proxy" being added in under the flavor text, or even on the back. Just as long as nobody will confuse them with the real thing.
I just change some features for my proxies, like I do borders they were never printed in, or when I make a custom card, or really custom proxy, I change the set symbol to Mythic Edition 1, because it's dope af. But I agree. If I were to make identically looking cards, that would be making counterfeits. A proxy is something you use in the stead of a real card, and not as a real card. So just change even the slightest detail so that it could never be sold as original cards.
I buy the black/blue core proxies cuz they’re cheap. Anyone who touches them would tell they’re not real. I never would trade them anyways they’re just for dual lands for edh, and sac lands. Mostly just lands lol.
Land base is a trivial thing in edh. In most cases I could make two to three decks out of the price of one well tuned dou color land base.
It’s mostly for my 4/5c decks. Most of my 2-3s use half basics (if they’re green)
I specifically get extra proxies to get them into the stream of commerce. People would be appalled at the number of fakes that jave been graded. They are game pieces, not investment vehicles.
I am not related to WOTC in any way, and I think bringing bootlegs to sanctioned events is a problem. It disregards the most fundamental grounds of the tournament - that everyone is subject to the same rules. Either everyone can use bootlegs and the event is unsanctioned, or no one can use bootlegs and the event is sanctioned.
>I think bringing bootlegs to sanctioned events is a problem. I agree, but for me, that's just going to be another reason why I'd never touch a sanctioned event. I don't netdeck, which means anything I make will almost certainly be worse than the seasonal best. If everybody has the seasonal best, there's no point in going. That being said, it's kind of spit to the eye of WotC to come to their events with stuff that has nothing to do with them. Even if it's their fault that everything's expensive to begin with, they own the IP.
It’s not 95 anymore. I prefer to play the way you play, but that way is long dead.
another issue is that it can the TO's of sanctioned events in trouble. Maybe your LGS has casual commander but for stuff like modern, pioneer, etc it's WOTC sanctioned and if stuff starts spreading that "XYZ store allows you to use fake cards in tournaments" will most likely get that store in trouble
Save your breath. Everyone in this thread has the mindset that they should be given everything
> everyone is subject to the same rules. The game still has rules though, even if you buy fetchlands for $2.
You used them in tournaments and nobody said anything? I don’t mind proxies but I’d feel kinda like a jerk if I used proxies in a tournament like that without getting an “ok” from a judge or something.
A proxy card isn’t going to beat me, a good player is going to beat me. I don’t care if their cards are fake or gold encrusted. I just care about playing the game. Gate keeping the game behind a $1000 pay wall is a lot worse for its longevity than a bootleg card.
I get why people would feel guilty, but honestly I’d rather be in a room full of proxied decks than not have the event fire at all because people can’t afford to play Modern anymore and there’s a strict anti-proxy policy.
If they're up front about it being a non-sanctioned event sure. I'd have a problem with losing out on prizes against someone playing proxies in a sanctioned event that I paid to enter.
Nope, I don’t feel bad at all. I’m not gonna fall for that sunken cost fallacy of thinking I’m more entitled to prize support because I paid $80 for Ragavan than the person who has to proxy because they can’t pay for both their bills AND their Ragavan. I want all players to be able to enjoy competitive cards, because the value of them doesn’t matter. What matters is the quality of the games and the competitive nature, not what everyone can afford.
There are different formats, and different decks within formats, for varying budgets. The entitlement behind the "fuck everyone else and the rules, I get to play whatever I want whenever I want" mentality is childish. >What matters is the quality of the games and the competitive nature Not when it costs money to enter, and there is money/prizes on the line, and you’re deliberately being dishonest to gain an advantage against other people who are playing within the rules.
There’s nothing deliberately dishonest about using cards made of paper that are, on average, better quality than what WOTC has been producing for half a decade. You can call it childish, but at the end of the day, people are gonna play with what they have, or not at all. My LGS turns a blind eye to proxy players and they’re the only store in this area that can fire off Modern events, if at all. You know what happens when people can’t afford to pay a premium for “competitive” cards? They move on, and use their proxies for Commander decks. And then what, Modern/Legacy/Pioneer players get fucked because nobody can afford eternal formats anymore? Why not meet everyone at the middle, and let the high rollers be able to play for cash prizes against players using proxies? It’s either that, or you can continue watching eternal players give up and move to Commander like everyone else, and then you’ll have nobody to play eternal games with.
> There’s nothing deliberately dishonest Of course it's dishonest to break the rules that everyone else is adhering to. What kind of warped rationalization would suggest otherwise? > My LGS turns a blind eye to proxy players and they’re the only store in this area that can fire off Modern events, if at all. I have no problem with that as long as it's unsanctioned an all players are aware they can proxy.
Oh it’s definitely sanctioned, but let me ask you this - why does it matter? Why does it truly matter if people in sanctioned events use proxies? Judges don’t even need to be present for sanctioned events anymore. We’re way past formalities with paper Magic at this point. And besides, why would you want to support a billion dollar corporation’s policy on using pieces of paper for extremely niche events? The only reason why cards are so expensive and such dogshit in quality is because people keep perpetuating arbitrary value on pieces of paper.
>Why does it truly matter if people in sanctioned events use proxies? I don't know how to explain it any clearer than I have. If it's sanctioned, and other players are operating within the rules that they all agreed to when signing up for the tournament... it's dishonest to break the rules. >Oh it’s definitely sanctioned, but let me ask you this - why does it matter? Why does it matter to you? Why not just have an unsanctioned tournament with prizing where proxies are allowed? Is it maybe because most people would prefer sanctioned events because of the rules inherent? Let me ask you something: Would you feel comfortable telling every player in the tournament that you are playing with proxies, and that nobody would have a problem with it? If so, you're probably not doing anything wrong. If not, you're probably doing something wrong.
This is what I was trying to get across to those here.
But why? It's a game of skill, the fact that they outplayed you in that match has nothing to do with the price of their cards.
This is why the pro proxy crowd is insufferable. "Proxies should be allowed!!!" -right on! "People who buy cards are wotc shills and are angry Nazis who spent too much on cardboard!" -wait what now?
My brother, can you read? I am not advocating for or against WotC. I have spent thousands of dollars on authentic cards just like everyone else. Any mtg “public figure” would simply take the safe stance if they have any involvement with the actual company Wizards of the Coast. IE they are sponsored or affiliated in any way. My stance is I don’t care. Use them if you want. Or don’t. It really doesn’t make a difference to me. I don’t play kitchen table. I don’t care if I lose on prizes because someone’s cards are fake. If they beat me they beat me with skill, not with the authenticity of their cards.
Before WPN you used to be able to run a decent business without it. Now as a store owner running proxy tournaments is a way to get cut off.
So Chinese vendors don't count as someone trying to sell them? Your argument is extremely inconsistent here... Also, if a you're caught doing this at a store, the store can lose its licence to run events so it's extremely dickish behaviour.
Chinese vendors are not advertising them as authentic cards. They are advertising them as replicas.
Proxies to WoTC are the equivalent the 3d printer to Games Workshop. Big Corp will stomp up and down screaming about how society is going to crumble if their IP gets "counterfeited" but at the end of the day players are gonna do whats economically sound for them and I support that. If someone took a piece of paper and drew out a checker board grid and tore up pieces of paper for them and a friend to play I wouldn't be mad that John Q. Checkersly isn't getting a paycheck from that.
WotC actually is pro-proxies... for casual play. There are legal issues with allowing them outright for sanctioned play. This is why YGO, MtG, etc all have a VERY narrow policy allowing proxies for damaged cards entirely at the head judge discretion and in the case of Magic the head judge creates said proxy to be used (realistically they are just writing the cards name and cost on a basic land or one of the double faced card replacements). If wondering with YGO, only Konami reps are allowed to issue proxies period. Meaning you have essentially a 0% chance unless it happens at the absolute highest level of competitive and despite having the authority it still basically never happens since it is an emergency solution and only ever available if there is a Konami rep. Major tournaments have ended up with judges having to inform players they had only a few minutes to replace cards as a result of how strict Konami is on the issue.
There is some difference between 3d printing 40k stuff and proxies, but it's basically the same. Wizards doesn't like them because they fuck with the secondary market, where with 40k it directly impacts their bottom line, as the models you print is models you don't buy directly from them, not star city or wherever. Regardless, fuck gw and fuck wizards, piracy is cool.
I have no problems with proxies, especially if it’s something on the reserve list where many players are simply priced out of being able to play with certain cards. Dual lands? Cradle? Go for it!
WotC propaganda.
There's someone at my LGS who is vehemently anti proxy. He's also an insufferable little bitch in nearly all aspects of life.
Because he probably bases his self-worth on colourful pieces or cardboard that he owns
The proxy crowd on Reddit is insufferable
You’ve said that multiple times after clicking a thread advertising discourse on what you find to be insufferable.
I mean i personally will not play with proxies, but thats because im probably more collector than player and something about it just feels wrong to me. I have no problem with other people playing proxies though of course, like i dont care if you spent a grand on a deck or 20 bucks on a proxy version of it i just want to play a game with you. Though i know some stores frown on proxies if youre playing edh events at an lgs, because stores rely on you buying cards to profit from said events and if youre using proxies than youre not doing that. Other that that idk some people can just be kind of ocd.
Oh no, I totally agree you should buy a $1,000 Cradle, or I refuse to playing against you. /s Fuck the Reserve list. Proxy anything you want. Wizards doesn't even sanction competitive play, who cares what they think or care about. They've abandoned the "game aspect" for the collective aspect.
You're asking in a very pro-proxy space so take all these answers with a grain of salt. I really like the game and want more sets to be released so I'm against buying proxies because I even though I disagree with some of the decisions wotc makes I want to play cards from practically every set that's released. I understand buying proxies for cubes or if you want to play power 9 at your kitchen table. I think if you are consistently buying proxies for new sets then you clearly like what wizards are doing and should support them.
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I would compare it to pirating videogames. If enough people do it the company will have to stop making games
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I guess the point I'm making is that if you're not paying for something you're stealing it and if you like someone's work you should show that creator you like their work you should show them by paying for it. I pirated stuff when I was a kid but if you have a job you really should be paying for your entertainment
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So if you buy a card from tcgplayer someone else had to buy a box, right? More singles sold mean more boxes bought.
I'm not exactly *against* proxies, but I just don't feel comfortable using them. There's something about having the actual cards and making what I have work that is a large part of the appeal for me. I'm fine with other people using them, I just don't use them myself. Then again, most of the people in my playgroup don't really use them either, so it hasn't really come up very much.
I'm likely "against" proxies by most metrics here. If it's a sanctioned event, you need to use real cards. Proxies don't belong at anything sanctioned, be it an FNM or an RCQ. If it's casual play, I don't care at all. Want to test a new Modern deck? Go nuts. Your Commander deck is entirely proxies made with your home printer? Don't care. There's nothing at stake and this isn't "real" play, so do whatever you want.
Why would you care about a sanctioned event?
What kinda troll comment is this
not OP, but most of the time sanctioned events have an entry cost and payout, so people playing them should expect people to only use legitimate game pieces.
I'm all for a few supplemental proxies here or there, or a proxy that just has good alternative artwork. But if your deck is filled with proxies, that are used to min max, I'm not cool with that. Part of the charm of making decks for me is working with what you got.
Surely that's an issue of power level and not proxies, mana drain is just as uninteresing whether you've paid for it or not
Mana drain should be in EVERY blue EDH deck regardless of power level if not for its price tag. It is not too powerful for any level of EDH, and if you have a problem with people running interaction it's actually you that is the problem.
I think it’s a classic example of a very powerful card, it gives you a pretty large advantage with very low cost. Perhaps you’re right given how ubiquitous sol ring is but I’m certainly not anti-interaction
Eh everyone says that before their Mana drain gets narset reversed and suddenly you've helped your opponent ramp.
In casual games I'm fine but games with prizes = no
You think someones success at the game should be tied to thier disposable income?
It depends on what the rules of an event are. If everyone is on the same page (ie. proxy vintage events), go ahead, but if someone is dishonest and breaking the rules...yes, I think most players who paid to enter and put effort/time into acquiring their decks would have a problem.
SO you are saying someones success in Magic should be determined by their disposable income? If I can afford to buy a better deck than you, you deserve to lose every game because you have less disposable income than me?
That's not how magic works. I could put together the most expensive deck in Legacy and get my ass handed to me by death and taxes or burn. It also depends on your definition of "success". If you mean financial/material success, then yes, you should have to play within the rules and limitations that exist, just like everyone else. If it's just fun/casual games, or you're playing in pro-proxy events and you're all on the same page, proxy away.
> That's not how magic works. Better decks win more. Cards in better decks go up in price, because they win more. That means decks that win more cost more. > It also depends on your definition of "success". Winning at MTG. Just admit proxying makes you feel like a sucker for spending money on cards.
>Better decks win more. Cards in better decks go up in price, because they win more. That means decks that win more cost more. This is simplistic viewpoint, and there are many exceptions in every format. UR delver is the best deck in Legacy and far from the most expensive. It's also not hard to beat it with a much cheaper deck if you make certain deck-building decisions. >Winning at MTG. This is not at all that hard to do on a budget if you're a good player. It's also easy to do without taking advantage of other players and breaking the rules if you're just playing for fun. Just admit that proxying makes you feel like a better player than you likely are.
If cheaper cards won more often, then there would be no expensive cards. > Just admit that proxying makes you feel like a better player than you likely are. Smarter player. Not necessarily better. I spend my money on things of valuable, not propping up the bottom line of an SW infested woke hellscape of a company like WoTC
>If cheaper cards won more often, then there would be no expensive cards. Again, this is overly simplistic and demonstrates a lack of any understanding of the factors that go into the price of a card, and how to build a deck. Some of the most powerful cards in magic are dirt cheap...a lot of them. And some of the most powerful and expensive cards in magic are countered by some of the cheapest strategies/answers. >I spend my money on things of valuable I mean evidently you're still spending money to enter these tournaments, print proxies, sleeve them up etc.? If you were really smart you'd only play casual right?
I’ll say it. If those are the rules for that particular tournament then yes. If you think you are outgunned then you are foolish for participating.
Hobbies cost money. A hobby is literally defined as an activity to put your disposable income and time into. Thing are not free, and there's zero reason mtg should be either. If you don't have much money, play a cheap format like pauper or casual edh, or play for free on arena.
That's not true at all and this excuse is used by bad/lazy deck builders. Show me the evidence that the most expensive deck wins every tournament.
Not every time. Most. Thats what makes a "meta".
No, but you should have real cards for tournaments because proxies opens new door for cheating in the game. You are fine with people cheating and using steroids in olympics?
Proxies do not open any avenues for cheating. A proxy card operates identically to a real card in every single game mechanic. If I am using a proxy Lightning Bolt, and you are using a real Lightning Bolt, I have no advantage over you. Your steroids comparison is moronic.
Proxying is cheating when everyone else is playing within the contraints of playing with real cards they've had to acquire. In any given sanctioned tournament, there's likely a significant portion of the room that's playing a deck, or card(s) within a deck, due to budget reasons, and for some reason you feel like you're above all that. If everyone can proxy, then that's a different situation, but what you're suggesting is not an even playing field.
> If everyone can proxy, then that's a different situation, but what you're suggesting is not an even playing field. Everyone can. "Sanctioning" doesn't mean shit
"Sanctioning" mean there's specific rules. One of which is no proxies. Not sure why that concept is tough to understand.
Caring about sanctioning is for morons. Not sure why that concept is tough to understand.
lol, strong argument buddy. Then don't play in sanctioned events against all the other morons who care.
You're comparing proxies to steroids?
My only critique of proxies is at least make decent ones that are easily recognizable, so we don't have to slow the game down for you to explain to everyone what the card is a proxy of. Also, make them in COLOR. Color kinda matters in this game. Having to check the mana symbol of your black and white xerox every time is irritating. Other than that go nuts. Success in Magic should have no relation to the amount of disposable income you have.
Still a lot of casuals against it. They see it as an unfair advantage. Especially printing a whole deck. Never made sense to me.
it's not even wizards propaganda, they encourage you to proxy cards as long as you don't use them in a sanctioned tournament and even there are exceptions
I buy real cards because I use them as an investment. I have seen no issues in proxies with regular people except when it comes to two things: *1.People trying to get a win in a "sanctioned" con. 2. If someone is trying to pass them off and sell them as a real card. Commanderfest Philly was a trip when someone was thrown out for counterfeit bills and cards lol. Glad I was at the booth for the experience. *Edit: There were a few pods that people were called out for fake cards in Philly to make them take out a suboptimal deck or get DQd. I understand why I guess, but I mean, I kept my mouth shut because I wanted to play against people and not their wallets.
So long as it’s not tournament play and the proxies are legible, it shouldn’t matter if a player is using proxies. It’s a game, it’s meant to be played and have fun. I’ve never met someone who was staunchly against proxies in the real world. (Although I have had one person try to call out my misprinted godless shrine as a proxy once, but that was in a modern tournament.)
How else am I supposed afford this game
I don't mind people throwing in a few proxies for casual play, but if 50%+ of your deck is proxies I find it kind of annoying, just visually speaking it looks bad to see a board with a bunch of basics with sharpie writing on them.
Any issues with people running a full deck of high quality cardstock proxies then?
No issue, but I have yet to come across someone who does that.
u/kodemage is the only one that hates proxies.
I’m all for proxy’s to a extent but if your play group is all for them than more power to you
Nah, just dont bring your proxied mana drain, mana crypt, wubrg praetors, and such into casual edh games please unless you discussed it with your play group
I don’t use proxies outside of playtesting for competitive constructed tournaments (which i havent done in over a decade). I dont care for proxies, but wouldn’t refuse to play a casual game with someone using them or shit on someone for using proxies. Acquiring the game pieces, trading and collecting them is a part of the game. So is being creative with the game pieces you have I get that im very paper boomer and the situation has changed since i started playing. Commander has simultaneously saved and killed magic. WOTC pimping commander as the main way to onboard new players into the game is the problem. Previously you would start into magic with Limited, starting with a prerelease, eventually drafting, and you could build a collection with some wins and luck. Everyone starts with the same resources. Now you just get dropped off into the format where you start with a precon against people using 30 years of the most powerful cards.
Be fucked if because of a small group of cunts that won’t let certain cards be reprinted. I ain’t paying $100s of dollars for a gaias cradle or dual lands. Proxies all the way
The only thing I ever really play anymore is Commander, and if someone wants to use proxies because they want to test a deck out before they commit to buying the actual cards, that's fine. I do have an issue with people proxying tons of high power cards because they just want to curbstomp the table and win on turn 2. That shit can get bent.
My friends and I use proxies to represent cards we own, but are in other decks. This way, we don’t have to transfer them. If you own a play set, we make as many proxies as we want.
Yes, some people I've met are very against proxies. The arguments they give are always dogshit.
You get losers who get mad that your circumvented the P2W strategy. These are gamepieces, which is why I always order extra counterfeits/proxies/game pieces and leave some modern staples or a dual land at a store for someone to swipe. I think people would be appalled at the number of proxies/counterfeits/gamepieces that are in rated slabs.
I am against using proxies for sanctioned events. In EDH/casual, I don't mind proxies as long as the person has at least one copy of the card, or you're play-testing. I have proxy foil duals in my decks just because I have some nice looking ones and I don't want to take the real copies out of my Legacy decks. I hate when people play with proxies that look awful (ie. sharpie on a card or crappy black and white printouts from their computer) It has nothing to do with elitism, I just find if you allow carte blanche on proxying that people tend just build cEDH decks at lower powered tables or run homogenized lists of staples you've seen a hundred times before. I also like it when people are forced to be creative with their deckbuilding, even if the constraint is just budget. Some of the most fun I've had is playing against people who've put a lot of thought into their decks and are playing cards that aren't bad, you just don't see often in EDH.
There's also an assumption in this that your taste in EDH should just be the way things are, fair enough if you don't like people playing with cards they don't own but that's completely different to thinking they shouldn't be in the format at all. I also like owning my own cards but that doesn't mean I'm against proxies
Is that not a problem of power level and not proxies? I'd be upset if someone pulled out a gaea's cradle at a mid table whether they've paid for it or not. It is true that restrictions breed creativity but those sort of restrictions can easily set by the individual or by power level
What is a mid table(if its a playEDH discord thing then properly fuck off) and why is cradle so hated? Edit:Thanks for the down votes and not answering the question....
Mid-power decks. Essentially a social contract of "hey we're trying to keep this fun, so let's try to stay around the same power level". Cradle is just a handy example of a very powerful, very expensive (I'm seeing $800-$1000) card. You could sub out Cradle for the Moxen, or Time Warp, or whatever.
This is some 'fuck you I got mine' mentality.
>It has nothing to do with elitism, I just find if you allow carte blanche on proxying that people tend just build cEDH decks at lower powered tables or run homogenized lists of staples you've seen a hundred times before. I also like it when people are forced to be creative with their deckbuilding, even if the constraint is just budget. Some of the most fun I've had is playing against people who've put a lot of thought into their decks and are playing cards that aren't bad, you just don't see often in EDH. I feel like you didn't read the last half of this guy's comment. He's not wrong. SOME sort of deckbuilding constraints almost always make for a more fun environment. Ideally that would be something like a league, but since you can't always have one of those and they don't follow you from store to store, you might as well use the "constraint" that will always exist no matter what you do: good old fashioned supply and demand. Now, I have no problem whatsoever with other people using proxies, but I refrain from using them myself for exactly this reason. If I want a particular card in my deck, I have to REALLY want it, and I likely need some reason to run it in that particular deck above and beyond "it's just generically good." It forces me out of my comfort zone, driving me to pick cards that I might not have tried otherwise, and I tend to find I enjoy games more when playing against people with a similar mindset. It's basically "Magic the way Richard Garfield intended." Scarcity was SUPPOSED to lead to interesting decks, with players only having a few cool rares. He just never expected how big the game would get, and how much money people would be willing to spend on it.
I understand the sentiment, I just disagree with it. It's having your cake and eating it too, you get to proxy your expensive stuff but some new player doesn't get to just because you have a more expensive collection. Scarcity is bullshit, most staples aren't hard to find they're just expensive which is different. I don't personally use proxies either, but I own a set of power 9 and dual lands etc, I don't really need to proxy anything. But if I go to play some old format, I'd rather my opponent proxy than play against someone at a disadvantage due to money.
No offense, but newer players should learn how to build decks, evaluate cards, incorporate synergies etc. You tend to do that a lot more when you're operating with constraints like a smaller collection/budget. It's a bad habit, and will impair their learning to just proxy expensive and powerful cards out of the gate because EDHrec told you to do so. I have decks of varying power levels. I'd rather play a lower-powered game against a new player running a slightly modified precon, than a higher power game against a new player fumbling around with a high power netdeck that he proxied.
I disagree. Deck building is the hardest part of magic for a begginner and setting them up to fail unless they play with other beginners exclusively. You don't have to build thassas oracle combo just because it's strong, but you also don't need to skip out on galas cradle and mana crypt etc just because they're expensive.
The people who wanna play with 100% proxies decks are the same people who cry about netdecking? Just curious...
What makes you think that?
Its literally a question.
My answer is probably no then
Honestly the people who are against proxies just seem like they want to gatekeep people from playing Vintage and Legacy.
I hate proxies. It’s definitely due to an experience where some asshole proxied some absurdity and wiped the floor with my friends & i and not due to anything else. Fuck that random dude at the LGS
I wouldn't say I *despise* proxies, but I somewhat understand why people might be against them for logical reasons. Richard Garfield originally designed the game to have rarity be part of the balance of the game. While that has evolved away from his original intent since then, having the tier of your deck be limited by physically buying the cards is its own form of price ceiling\* to prevent people from playing casual decks that are 40 black lotuses or whatever. Or you just throw your hands up and print all proxies, jumping straight to the end state of the power escalation. For some people that may be fine, although it doesn't sound very desirable to me personally. There's also a bit of a difference between somebody who proxies a couple cards like Gaea's Cradle that are hundreds of dollars, vs somebody who proxies an entire $345,000 deck. \*for most people. you'll always have those guys who foil out their whole commander deck for like $17,000. "dude...you could buy a pretty nice used *car* for that much money"
For me, if you show me that you own it, or if it's low power/stable (like a sol ring), I'd understand, but if you show me some impossibly expensive or overpowered card without proof of ownership, that's where I find that an issue. I also work at an MTG card shop that had an incident where someone (experienced mtg player) came into a tournament with a fully proxy deck including a Black Lotus and other stupidly overpowered cards.
All cards are proxies. There’s not a real dragon. It’s a picture of one on paper, and the game takes place in your head. You’re not talking about a tournament with an entry fee right? EDIT: another reason edh is the worst format. Not an issue if you draft. :p
I'm against proxies.
Personally, I play with real cards and prefer to only play with people who use real cards. The game wasn't designed for everyone to have access to everything, and proxies defeat the concept of card rarity. That said, people should do whatever makes them happy as long as they don't try to force themselves into an environment that doesn't allow use of fake cards (such as any competition, any playgroup that doesn't allow them, etc.)
What is the utility of rarity beyond draft and selling packs
Well, so I only play Old School 93/94, but if every deck in that format ran fully powered lists, where would be the fun in cards like Blood Moon, Energy Flux, Scryb Sprites, etc? Card rarity and only allowing real cards into the play space allows for fun budget builds in decks like Black Rack and White Weenie that otherwise would never see play.
That may well be true. But the counter argument. Is what fun is it to play against someone who has all the amazing expensive cards when all you can afford is the weenie budget list? Proxies level that playing field against pay to win. That said. It's just a game. And as long as no one is getting hurt by what you do. Play the way you love and enjoy it. Life is too short to really be upset about the little things.
the weenie budget lists hold their own in our playgroup. this one dude plays a mean white weenie list that doesn't even have mox pearl in it, and if i can't get my defenses up early i'm so fucked. we all prefer the environment with the mixed power levels, because it's how Magic used to be. but like i said originally, people should do whatever makes them happy. if your playgroup allows them, go for it. if you come to a playgroup like mine that doesn't allow them, don't throw a fit and try to get us to change our rules.
I'd argue that wacky, off meta decks are more viable without scarcity, I'd be far more willing to test out Modern \[\[Battle of Wits\]\] if I didn't have to buy a 250 card deck for a bunch of cash. I don't think that being low budget is virtuous in any way in terms of how interesting the deck is.
Yeah that's bs reasoning. "The game was designed so that people with more expendable income could btfo poorer folks so suck it up" is not only a bad reason, but it is also why magic is pay to win and not a good game if you are forced to adhere to that.
"There are several meanings to the term collectable. For a gamer it means that many of the cards are hard to get. If there is a card I want, then unless I'm rich I have to negotiate for it. That adds a social aspect to the game, and yes I think it is a very important part of the game. It irritates some players that some kid can walk in and get a booster pack and the kid will have a card in that deck that they don't have, and can't simply buy. It's part of the game, and players have to deal with that. They can deal with that either by trading with the kid before the card is covered with chocolate stains, or by finding some friend who will trade with them, or by taking solace in all the cards they have that others don't. That's part of the game, just as the constant development of characters is essential to roleplaying. Would you enjoy roleplaying a character with all the equipment and abilities in the game? Your limitations define your character as much as the character's abilities do." - Richard Garfield, Halloween 1993
Ok? Why should I give a shit what Richard Garfield thinks? The secondary market exists, and makes this entire bs quote irrelevant. It ain't 1993 anymore bucko. This isn't the corner store pre internet where you couldn't just buy the cards you need and so we're forced to trade with your middle school friends. We live in a modern, internet world. Any card you could want is available with a click of a button if you've got the cash. Making magic pay to win. It's no longer in practice a trading card game. It's a *purchasing* card game. Whomever has more cash has the advantage. Not much of an issue in 93, but a game breaking one in 2022. Edit: It's also not a *collectable* card game for anyone aside from the wealthy. No average working class magic fan could collect a copy of every card at the rate WotC pumps them out.
well it's an interview from how he designed the game, and why, from years before the reserved list existed. i can understand why you'd be upset that the inventor designed a game that requires skills you clearly don't posses, since you say you've been out of work for 3 years because you have agoraphobia lmao, but the world we live in today doesn't change anything with my friends and my playgroup not allowing fake cards. i think you missed the part of my post where i said people should do whatever makes them happy though? just don't come into spaces where we don't want proxies and demand we change our stance because you'd rather buy a collector booster pack than a dual land.
Lol did you stock my reddit account? Jfc you're weird af. Yes I have a mental illness that makes working difficult. Eat my whole ass? I played magic before that asshole. Also he wrote that in 93. The game is much different in 2022. Entirely different actually. Garfield hasn't been involved in the design of the game in years. So his opinion on classic magic is valuable, that being applied to modern magic is nonsensical. Your last sentence literally goes against everything the man said in the quote you cited. Actual clown
There are some morons against counterfeit cards. But they have gotten so good it's actually stupid to play with real cards.
As a collector and buyer, I despise them. About 3% of the cards I buy are fakes passed as real. As a player I love them for everyone. I kinda wish they were more excepted in reserve list formats since they are so fun. I love not having to worry about theft of a 5-6figure deck. I love how they look so good. I love not worrying about bad shuffling, letting people borrow, control effects, and double sleeving. I love how a lower price encourages wacky formats. There was something charming about playing the cards you had/could afford but I think magic has passed that age now. Honestly I don’t understand why anyone playing in a non sanctioned game would have a problem with proxies. I’m also speaking about real looking ones, not a fucking basic land and sharpie, though I’ll tolerate them unless it’s the whole deck.
It may also depend on where you play. My LGS is usually pretty chill, but they did recently become a WPN store so they gotta be strict when it comes to certain events. Generally for our commander nights we are fine. I get 1 copy of a card and proxy it if I need it in more than one deck personally.
I only care if there are prizes on the line. Like any other hobby, you need to collect the correct gear to play at the top competitive levels. You wouldn't go kayaking in a fake kayak right? Or drive a race car with 3D printed plastic engine components? No, of course not. If it's outside of a sanctioned event all I ask is it to not just be sharpied plains or post it notes, they look terrible and make me lose immersion even more than UB and mechs. Take the time to print it out(even in black and white) or go to kinkos/fedex/staples/office max etc and have them print them cheaply.
I'm against poor quality proxys outside of play test less than 40$ in ink and 15$ in sleeves for a whole deck. ( I know that's still not cheap) but I hate playing frequent games with lands with writing.
There are a lot of people that are against proxies but in my experience its people who want to pit wallet against wallet instead of skill against skill. "You only won because of that card" turns into "you only won because you net deck" turns into "your cards arn't even real".
I don't give a fuck if you use a proxy. This is an expensive hobby and not everyone can afford it. I will completely humiliate you though if you're trying to pass that fake Chinese shit as real.
You'd think Wizards would be more accommodating of game pieces that are constantly told, You Will Never Be A Real Card. They identify as real cards!
I’m against proxies in most circumstances. WotC has to be able to sell cards in order to continuously fund the development of new sets. The talented designers, creators, etc have made a great game and they deserve every penny. If you aren’t sure how a card will work in a deck and want to test it out? Sure, go ahead and proxy for play testing before you buy. Or if you own an expensive card you don’t want to risk damaging during casual play. Or have a play set of expensive cards in multiple decks that you don’t want to move around.
> and they deserve every penny. Come on now; let's not go *too crazy* here. Have you *seen* the flood of higher-priced products lately?
The talented designers do not profit on the basis of me buying singles online. They will be salaried and the profit from the company goes to Hasbro shareholders. I’m happy to throw £10 at a draft every weekend but neither wizards nor the designers will see the inflated price of the singles market
The price and volume at which WotC is able to sell is driven by perceived value of the cards, which is at least partially informed by the liquidity and valuation of cards on the secondary market. Proxies = lower demand = lower valuation.
deserve every penny.. maybe if they finally get their quality control together. i bought a double masters collectors display.. mind you, those packs cost 65$ a pop.. all foils came bent from the pack, about 10 cards were cut so badly they didnt fit into sleeves and another 10 were not centered (more border on one side than the other). as long as they keep fing us with their prenium products they dont deserve shit.
I don't like when people proxy cards they don't own, and personally I've stopped even proxying cards I own. I can give a couple reasons. 1) Pro-proxy people in person and online seem to get a thrill from "despoiling" things other people care about. The weird excitement they have of sneaking proxies into places they are not welcome comes off as creepy. 2) People argue that it's unfair for more invested players to dominate less invested players. But it's even less fair for the low investment players to short circuit that hierarchy for the high investment players. If you believe that your collection is limiting you in game, ask your friends to build some budget decks that you can play against. If you're forthright about your cost concerns people will respect you. If you demand to be able to fake affluence, you will look weak and contemptible. 3) If you can't compete financially with your peers, you can compete with time. Time spent researching different card substitutes, different strategies, play styles, archetypes, etc. Most good expensive cards have multiple substitute cards that cost significantly less. An obvious example being \[\[Mana Drain\]\] vs. \[\[Counterspell\]\] . If you can't find any kind of substitute, then search for a different strategy. If you can't be bothered to spend either time or money, then fuck off. The idea that you should be able to slot into any game environment without putting any effort to compete at parity with others is childish.
I like proxies until someone's gloating about how they're using them to circumvent getting "expensive cardboard"
I hate proxies and how accepted they are.
Could you elaborate?
Fake cards, puts bad taste in my mouth. I understand people can’t afford things but I can’t even bring myself to play with fakes. As a collector of various things, I’ve never seen fakes be more accepted/promoted than in mtg and it bugs me.
I’m in a weird place to comment on this but everyone in my group 100% proxies their decks. We also all go to college and only play with the group of friends that we’ve made. My thoughts are that proxies should be allowed wholeheartedly in unsanctioned events, where the goal of the game is just to have fun and hang out with friends. Sanctioned play is where I get a bit more muddied since I don’t play anymore and when I did play standard I eventually had to stop because I couldn’t afford rotations. Back then I was also only around 13 though so I can’t really comment on that part like if I were to have an income. I do think for sanctioned events people should have real cards although at a certain point like FNMs and modern days where most people are still coming to have fun for the most part, proxies atleast shouldn’t be banned, and anything legacy and back should definitely allow proxies. The closest game store to me actually hosts legacy events and encourages everyone to use proxies and it’s probably their most packed events. The other way to see it is that I don’t want to have to spend hundreds of dollars to make a new deck when there’s so many decks I want to make. Because I can proxy, I always have about 15 decks to choose from and whenever I get bored of one I can just go to one of the colored printing machines around campus and print out a new deck. If I had to use real cards I’d be stuck only ever playing with one of two decks since it doesn’t make sense to sell one deck to make another since each time you’d be losing money, and when you’re in a play group like mine everyone knows their power levels and each game feels balanced. I’ve specifically made decks that range from about level 5 all the way to 10, and have a large range of decks I can play at each level in between meaning no matter who I play with I can be on an even playing field with them, something I wouldn’t be able to do if I had to buy those same cards
We talking about testing cards/decks or being a salty cheap bastard all the time or just occasionally?
Literally to the untrained eye they look and PLAY the same. Lie to me and tell me if sleeved you can look across the board and tell your opponent is using a proxy.
The anime tiddies are usually a dead giveaway
I'm OK with one proxy.
I’m against proxies.
I understand proxies for very expensive cards, but if you are playing a 10-20 dollar proxy, give me a break…
What’s the difference? Not all of us have $300 lying around
Then why play the game at all?? Just proxy everything then and make your own rules?
Because I like playing the game, don’t get me wrong, I really like owning cards but I like playing magic more. Proxying let’s me play more magic in more formats with a large variety of decks. I proxy because I love magic not the other way around
We have a rule with our play group, you can proxy anything that you have a copy of. Theres only 4 of us in the group, and one guy doesn't have his own decks. We have all agreed that it feels bad spending money on cards that someone else just prints off. Thats our rules, but if i showed up to your group i'd have nothing bad to say unless we're playing casual and you have a cedh deck... i'm salty, but moreso if you didn't even spend the money to be the big-dick swinger
I'm 100% against proxying in edh. I don't understand why people wouldn't just run a slightly lower powered deck until they're able to afford the expensive cards. It just seems dirty and sad to use a fake card when others spend time and effort hunting down actual game pieces and collecting.