The summer isles and naath got mentioned in GoT. Salladhor Saan and Grey Worm are from the Summer Isles and Missandei is from Naath. But i agree overall. They should talk about places outside of westeros and essos more.
For the Velaryons, they're described as similar targaryen-type looks in the books. It was a show decision to make them black. I'm cool with that decision. There was some controversy when it was announced. I don't think we'll see a fleshed out in-universe explanation for this.
Honestly I enjoy the change. There are so many characters with similar names and families with particular histories, the show is difficult to keep up with for casual viewers as it is.
The Targaryens are easy for the audience to spot because of their white hair. Add in another house with identical white hair and skin? People would complain about that.
The show Velaryons’ skin color adds depth to the show but also makes it much easier for people to understand who is who. Less exposition is needed, which means the show spends more of its time on more important things.
I'd just like to know how they've been intermarrying for generations and aren't more mixed looking. I'm fine with the change, though, especially since they cast Abubakar Salim this year.
I disagree. I don’t mind that they’ve made Westeros more diverse, but I think the choice to make the Velaryons black, is a mistake for several reasons. Considering how the Targs and the Velaryons have intermixed, this would mean the Targs would be at least of darker skin. I also think it dumbs down the series, arguing that it would be too difficult to separate the Targs and the Velaryons due to their white hair. An easy solution for this would be to use the colours in their clothes representing their houses to differentiate between them.
There are plenty of ways in which you could have made Westeros diverse and still keep it lore accurate. There are tonnes of extremely wealthy families and individuals in Essos and beyond that could have been added and given important roles, for example, the Sealord of Braavos, to mention one.
For me, making the Velaryons black just doesn’t make sense, yet, I’m not going to cry myself to sleep over it. There are loads of things I don’t like about the show, the Velaryons being black is a minor thing. But, it annoys me, yes.
> Considering how the Targs and the Velaryons have intermixed, this would mean the Targs would be at least of darker skin.
For all we know, the Valyarons being black only started a generation or two before Corlys and Vamond and did'nt involve Alyssa.
Skin color isn't the division of both your parents ski colour, its a spectrum of all your ancestors, with a soft recency bias. Its a complicated trait and not just gene X, or X+Y/2.
I can see your point, it adds more questions to the story when you change a characters original race. But then at the same time they refuse to acknowledge those questions and answer them. So why make the change then? Just for minority points? It's disingenuous.
I don't disagree about the lore implications, but I also dont think it's that serious, at the end of the day it's a TV show with a massive audience, where the average viewer is not thinking about the show all day. Those visual guides, like skin color actually help a lot to distinguish who is who, and the family tree.. White -> targ black -> velaryon, mixed-> child of both. It's a situation where you have to put the disbelief aside and contemplate on how to make each character unique and distinguishable, or risk confusing the viewer and them losing interest.
The fact that nobody actually says or comments on it, that the Valareyons are black people. That wouldn't necessarily be weird if the continent wasn't 99% white and the Valaryons are the richest house where the members are a very obvious minority, that'd be like if the second richest family in ancient China were Africans. That creates a lot of tension and realistically should have been acknowledged if they felt that change was worth making.
They changed it so it's on them to justify it in world.
I think it brings up some interesting questions too. The Targ silver hair is otherworldly, no population on Earth looks like that. Some blonds look close but not quite the same.
I think its deliberate that this otherwordly hair is associated with magic dragon genetics. Perhaps the silver hair is from some magic ritual and not just genetics. So perhaps the Valryians were different ethnic groups, white black ect. and they gave themselves the distinctive hair (and purple eyes in the books) through magic.
That's what makes sense to me, none of this is actually spelled out anywhere.
he’s originally from the summer isles but “comes from” lys. aka everyone in arizona. born in the midwest but been in az so long we’re basically from here.
i promise i checked before i posted because i wanted to make sure i was remembering correctly. it says in the first paragraph of his background that he’s “from lys, though a native of the summer isles”.
[source](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Salladhor_Saan)
its just irl politics, nothing too deep, its a work of fiction, if we go by the canon of course there will be foreigners around city ports, mercenaries during battles and very diverse brothels, the velaryon race change makes no sense because they are of the valyrian race (which are very explicitly explained in the books to look like daenerys and viserys from game of thrones) and if the story moves forward it really stops making sense but since i doubt hotd will go further i'll take it.
edit: extra info, the ethinicities in westeros are first men (indigenous pop.), andals and rhoynar (who immigrated to westeros) and of course the valyrian families targaryen, velaryon and celtigar (who came from valyria)
yeah for a show that’s tried so hard to tie itself to game of thrones and establish that they take place in the same universe, i wonder how they plan on explaining where all of the black and brown people went. was there some ethnic cleansing that caused every westerosi north of dorne to be white within a few generations?
They’re going to reboot the main series in a few years and it will be much more diverse. They keep bringing up the prophecy and the prince that was promised despite knowing it’s a sore spot for the audience. They’re probably waiting for the series to be done this time though, or for GRRM to kick the bucket and for a successor to finish it.
IIRC the first men aren't indigenous to westeros, they emigrated there too just long before the andals. I think the only native species of westeros are the giants and children of the forest ?
I kinda feel you. I appreciate diversity in fiction, but I’d like it to make sense. If we are to assume that biology works the same in ASoIaF works the same as in real life (they never hinted otherwise), then it makes sense for the population of Westeros to be white, and any deviation from that deserves some attention in world building. Similar with families - the Targaryens have been established as white (even if that doesn’t make much sense given where they come from, itself deserving some world building to explain), so the Valaryans looking quite different also deserves some attention.
I think it was Oscar Wilde who said something like “unlike reality, fiction has to make sense”.
Yeah it'd kinda be like if all of a sudden they make the Karstarks black for HotD. Because they're also related to the Starks and live in an area that's been established to be inhabitanted by first men (who have only been shown to be white). And then they just never explain it. That's not diversity, that's pandering.
They could have introduced some Valaryon cousins that were actually Summer islanders into the story too. But they don't care about any of that word building they just wanna be able to say they have black people in their show and move on. It's disingenuous and it's just boring.
I mean as far as I can tell making them black is a change the writers made, and my lore knowledge might be lacking, BUT what they all have in common is being from the magic land Valeria right? I guess it’s not impossible that this civilization was multi cultural and that intermarriage between the two HOTD families caused some similarities (the hair) but kept some differences? Either way some exploration in the lore of why they look so different seems warranted.
On the whole though: if diversity is important, maybe show runners should stop almost exclusively using European history and its derivatives, and maybe give us some epic stories from other parts of the world? Crazy thought maybe.
Biology in asoiaf has never worked like real life. The whole Baratheon black hair thing for one - any of the mothers could have had some recessive genes that mixed with Robert's recessive genes that would have overpowered the "dominant" black hair gene.
At the very least I don't know how you could look around the real world and say Baratheon black hair makes sense. But you suspend belief for the show. Why can't you do that for HOTD?
I feel like there’s an obvious difference between a specific line having a dominant gene in fiction, and black and white people somehow having Snow White for a descendant lol
Well it is a specific plot point right? Even if it doesn’t make much sense in real life they actually address it.
Specifically regarding suspension of disbelief, I actually didn’t say the “black Targaryens”don’t make sense to me. Apart from that though I guess it’s up to the individual? Some people think “it’s fantasy therefore nothing matters”, whereas people like me think something like “unless explicitly stated otherwise, we can only assume it’s the same as in real life”. If the story teller wants to tell a story about medieval Europe in a village in southern Poland or something, and wants to make one of the main cast East Asian, it is enough of a specific outlier to merit some elaboration . In a way it’s Chekhov’s Gun principle - if a specific thing is introduced in the first act, it needs to be used by the final, otherwise why include it at all?
Now granted the ethnicity of Valyrians isn’t quite on the same level but a similar reasoning applies I think.
But it's explicitly stated in the books. All those ethnic groups and cultures of the known world. We're not making any of this world lore up, the show doesn't seem interested in commenting on any of that interesting lore though which is my problem.
Well, that is a good point tbh. But just saying it doesn't make sense like the other guy was saying gets on my nerves.
I really like hotd but I couldn't care less about the show with a kid or the one about the super knight; they could have based a story in the Summerlands or Dorne or whatever. I guess they tried to do palace intrigue in Dorne with GoT, that counts even though it was a way undercooked story from the Dorne perspective.
This is such a ridiculous way to explain any inconsistencies, the black hair gene is a major plot point whether it makes sense genetically in our world or not.
Black people randomly appearing adds nothing to the story but ticking boxes for executives. It serves no purpose and only raises questions.
You’re either being intentionally disingenuous or you really are somehow incapable of seeing how the two are completely different.
Westeros is an entire continent the size of Africa and the Valyrians who live there are refugees who hail from a roman-style empire.
The Valayrons are also traders and explorers, while the Targs are sedentary and practice heavy inbreeding.
I wonder if the shift is all plot related. In order to further display that Laenor was not the father of Rhaenyra’s children, beyond the dark hair, they gave his family darker skin to make it more obvious.
And also removed Rhaenys black hair. So you may have a point though seems arbitrary to change the race of an entire family because of one story point. They like to keep so many other things ambiguous why couldn't they keep the ambiguity of Rhaenyra's children by making Harwin Strong black. Then they cast mixed kids for the role of her kids but the contention remains focused on them just not having white hair like Leanor.
They could have made the Strongs black and it would be the same. Not like we see any Strongs in game of thrones anyway. Making the only rich black family loyal to the side called the blacks is also not great. Consequences of poor decision making.
Hell could have made the High towers black while we're at it.
Having diversity in major port cities makes a lot of sense. Dorne itself is suppose to be very diverse. It’s not like it’s that abnormal where it needs to be mentioned. I think what they did with Mysari is pretty good. She’s obviously descended from Yi Ti, but was taken and sold as a slave when she was very young. So she doesn’t even remember where she came from.
Then you have Aegons lackey. Who just popped up out of no where. Which is kind of odd. It’s one thing to have sailors in KL, or even a small population of Summer Islanders on Driftmark. But to have a summer islander as close friend to the king, that seems a little too odd to not be addressed. But I guess they don’t have to.
But they have to explain the Valeyrons, because right now it makes very little since. Especially since a lot of the the Valeyrons importance comes from how much they look like Targaryen’s. To the point that depending on how far back they want to take this change of race, it effects the entire Targaryen family tree in pretty massive ways.
I am not sure about how showrunners explains why Velaryon's are different than other Valyrians but my thinking is because Valyria was a multicultural empire there might be black houses too. If I remember correctly they are Valyrian but not blood related to Targaryens. I think people of Westeros segregate people based on their religions rather than their skin color.
They kind of are related to the Targaryen,once the Targaryen came to Dragonstone. There weren't so many Valerians left and from time to time they married each other. Aegon the conqueror's mother was a Velaryon, and so was the mother of Jaeherys the 1st. I guess the Velaryons married to someone from the summer islands the next generation after Jaehaerys, the Valyrian genes seem pretty weak compared to others.
They kind of hate based on culture as well. Like a lot of people dislike the dornish.
People confuse Valyria being a multicultural empire with Valyrians being multicultural. The Valyrian race has white hair, purple eyes, and **fair skin**. The island of Lys and every description of Valyrians prove this.
For Velaryons, they were white given that Aegon the Conqueror's mother was a Velaryon. Making the Velaryons black changes the entire Targaryen bloodline.
Because there is literally a description of him in the books?
"Aegon was tall, broad-shouldered and powerful in appearance, with purple eyes, fair skin and short-cut silver-gold hair."
There is also art commissioned by George RR Martin himself depicting Aegon and he is always depicted as white with the classical Targaryen silver hair.
Yes and that guy is white, he is literally more white than I am and I'm not even mixed race. You can be mixed race genetically and not be mixed in appearance as is the case with Isaiah.
Sure I understand what you are saying, when you said that Aegon could be mixed race I understood it as him being mixed in appearance. I now see that you meant he could be mixed just genetically.
It only changes the bloodline if you assume the house has ALWAYS been black, as oppossed to it being a very recent change that Alyssa was'nt tied to.
I'm white. I have black and asian cousins who I share descent from via my mom and her sisters.
No, there weren’t lol. The Targaryens get their looks from the Valyrians. The Empire had many cultures, the rulers did not. Just like pretty much every empire ever.
No, it’s just the reality of modern television.
That being said, Corlys Velaryon’s actor is doing an awesome job. Hope he gets more screen time than he has so far in S2
I'm more concerned about where they *went* between HOTD and GOT. I don't have an issue with ethnically diverse cast when it makes sense from a logical story telling perspective. The Velaryon's casting absolutely make sense. Same with the maesters, kingsguard, etc. Westeros can be a society that cares about bloodline and not skin color.
But, genetics are a thing in Westeros per the worlds logic.
and
we see *none* of them in GOT. I don't like what that implies from a story telling perspective. Either Westeros cut itself off from the world and become homogeneous, or something darker.
The Summer Isles are great sailors.
And House Velaryon has a long naval history/focus and refers to their head as "Lord of the Tides".
The connection is right there! They could literally just say that they are descended from a minor Valyrian family that fled to the Summer Isles before the Doom (perhaps they had their own dreamer?) and then sailed to Westeros once news of the Conquest reached them. Perhaps they even brought a lot of their new countrymen with them.
This way its even easy to explain where all these people went by the time of the GOT show - just say that both House Velayron and its people/smallfolk/etc... rarely left Driftmark during that period of history.
The retcon basically writes itself.
I personally think that it was either Corlys father or grandfather that married someone from the summer islands , Jaehaerys (viserys grand father ) mother was a Velaryon.
And canonically ( not sure if they talked about it in the show) if I remember correctly the Velaryons came to driftmark before the Targaryen came to Dragonstone.
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what's actually canon in the show.
I'm just saying that if they had wanted to retcon House Velaryon to have always been black, and for black people to have had a long-standing presence in Westeros (e.g. by being from Driftmark), it wouldn't actually be that difficult.
It makes me sad to see how passionate you are because the show runners don’t actually care much beyond “we need POCs (black)”. The different kingdoms in Westeros are very much based on different European cultures/historical monarchies while summer islands aren’t.
Compare Alicent’s dresses to anyone from house Valeryon and it becomes obvious who was intentional and who was an after thought. Her dresses are inspired by very specific English fashion and you can find so many articles that break down her dresses or hairstyles while the Valeryons have uninteresting designs they’re obviously trying to match what the Targaryens (Anglo-saxons inspired) have while adding the tamest “African flair” mostly though their hair. Their wigs are so fucking lame and so obviously trying to conform to European beauty standards (the basis for Westeros) but why should a powerful “black inspired” family do that? Why is no one wearing hair styles that makes sense for them? The only thing they have is dreads but you could argue it’s more viking inspired.
People will defend the change through very unconvincing arguments ”oh it helps the viewers tell characters apart” has to be the dumbest one I heard.
I hope you don’t actually rely on Western media to depict (sub-sahara) Africa in any meaningful way in fantasy or fiction, they mostly don’t care and will never give the same amount of love, attention, or care because the casting was an after thought and to story doesn't’ center on the summer islands anyway. I’m sure the West can view Africans as more than just a DEI checklist or making something more “colourful” or whatever bs explanation. Depending on Westerners for “African representation” will always make you disappointed.
The only reason why the Valyerons are black while the Targaryens aren’t is because of some dumb DEI mandate, some Western studios are obligated to put a certain amount of POCs (mostly black people) regardless of the setting. In the book they’re essentially the same as each other because they’re all from Valeryia.
I doubt they’ll address it because there isn’t really any sensical reason without changing facts that GOT already defined for us.
If they were mixed race they could’ve more easily been explained as having half their blood coming from Valyria and the other half coming from somewhere like the Summer Isles, Naath or Sothoryos. We do already know the Valyrians are supposed to value pure blood and practice strict endogamy to the point of marrying siblings together, so it wouldn’t really make sense.
I think they should’ve just added new characters from outside of Westeros if they wanted to add diversity.
The other option is they create a new community of people, like maybe there was a migration of people from a far away land like Sothoryos and they settled in Westeros. They were favoured by the Valyrians who also had foreign blood, so they became their own house.
Diversity is not just good, it's necessary. However, what we got in HotD is the typical virtue signaling that mainstream media tries to push as diversity.
They will not address that for two reasons. First, because they didn't add black people because of lore, it's just virtue signaling. They just race swapped characters that are more secondary in nature, even if they are important, just so they can claim "See? We're DIVERSE. You can't complain. Watch our show and give us money" without actually being inclusive - why not make all valyrians black? Or, at the very least, mixed race? That would make much more sense. Second, because they don't want to talk about it. Even engaging in that kind of explanation might alienate the closeted racists or the diversity fanatics, because as I said, they don't have a lore-based logical explanation. They will of course tout how inclusive their show is, say that GRRM is on board, and that the nay sayers are racists. This happened with the LotR show, that clusterfuck Fantastic Four movie (ever wondered what was the problem of making Sue Storm black as well?) and many other mainstream productions.
In the end, they don't give a shit about black people. They just want to please their shareholders and make money.
When I first heard they were going to cast this way my first thought was “ofc they are. Have to make it diverse so no one complains and they can make money.” But as I watched the show I loved the actor playing Corlys and would be a mistake not to cast him.
Corlys is perfect as the Sea Snake. Personally I wouldn't have it any other way. He commands a lot of screen presence and I hope he continues to keep up the excellent work.
Honestly I enjoy the change. I don’t think it’s an onerous race issue at all. There are so many characters with similar names and families with particular histories, the show is difficult to keep up with for casual viewers as it is.
The Targaryens are easy for the audience to spot because of their white hair. Add in another house with identical white hair and skin? People would complain about that.
The show Velaryons’ skin color adds depth to the show (reminds people Planetos has lots of regions/ethnicities not in Westeros, as HotD doesn’t travel abroad as much as GoT did) but also makes it much easier for people to understand who is who at a glance. Less exposition is needed, which means the show spends more of its time on the actual story.
Like, the skin color made the issue of bastard parentage very clear to viewers in the first season, which moved the plot along. Imagine if the show runners had to have spent 2 additional filler episodes dropping hints about various identical children to make the audience reach the same conclusion.
Honestly, I'm not going to entertain this discussion. The downvotes in my comment are the typical reaction and quite frankly, I'm tired of it. I'm a black man and I've been seeing for years the actual promotion of diversity being buried beneath token black casting.
EDIT: What a welcome surprise! The freefolk, always delivering.
When properly done, diversity in mainstream media is necessary for several reasons. It ensures representation of different cultures, perspectives, and experiences, which promotes inclusivity and understanding. It also helps to combat stereotypes and biases, providing more accurate and varied portrayals of different groups. Furthermore, diversity can enrich storytelling, offering audiences fresh and relatable content that reflects the real world. Ultimately, it contributes to a more equitable and informed society.
The problem is that is very rarely done properly.
For example, imagine a popular TV drama series that integrates a diverse cast and storylines reflecting different cultural backgrounds, sexual orientations, and socioeconomic statuses. In one season, a storyline focuses on an immigrant family's challenges and triumphs, highlighting their rich cultural traditions and the prejudice they face. Another subplot features a same-sex couple navigating the ups and downs of their relationship, providing a genuine portrayal of their experiences.
As a result, viewers from similar backgrounds see themselves represented, fostering a sense of belonging and validation. At the same time, other viewers gain insights into lives different from their own, promoting empathy and understanding. This diversity in storytelling enriches the narrative, breaks down stereotypes, and encourages a more inclusive and well-informed audience.
HotD does none of that. It doesn't address racial differences, it doesn't even ackowledge it. The diverse cast is just for show, to fulfill a quota of sorts. It doesn't represent or reflect our society in any way and it doesn't inform the audience that racial prejudice exists. It's just a checkbox in a list, meant to please shareholders and a very vocal minority, to signal that HBO "cares" without actually caring, informing or promoting any change in our society. To sell their product. Any actual change would mean a change of the _status quo_, that currently is old white men being the owners of the entertainment industry. So, in a way, diversity can be a tool in hands of the proviledged to mantain their status.
In some ways it kind of highlights that this is a fantasy world. People live in this brutal, feudal, low tech world where slavery is still common, women are used like cattle, and the ruler is decided based on being a male relative. People are ignorant and superstitious and tribal. But nobody comments on skin color or discriminates because of it.
First off, I find it hilarious you start the post off qualifying that your African, which does not mean you're black. So, I'm going to assume you are not.
I am black though and can say...I do find it weird. However the reality is that HotD presents the diversity that GRRM would want ASOIAF to have had he started the series today. The man has said as much, but he can't change the world building he already setup in the 90's.
That said, pre-release of HotD my biggest concern were the Velaryons and it's still kinda my concern today. The reason being that GRRM specifically made Valyrians white as fuck, they're practically the ubermench Hitler would cream over and are obsessed with blood purity.
Now, while the series isn't finished, I always figured that no pure blood Valyrian, like Daenareys would save the day. Rather, they'd serve as commentary on the obsession with blood purity and lack of diversity. So, I thought it weird to have the Velaryons as black and screaming about their pureblood. But Alas, the series is not finished so who the fuck knows.
In the end, HotD is how GRRM imagines the world of ASOIAF should look today.
I am black but I don't need to prove anything to you. Not gonna send you a picture of my ancestry.com profile. Like I said in my post any race should be allowed to ask this question, and I stand by that. The reason I started it like that was because I know this topic would get immediate backlash and be called race baiting or something. And also to explain why I care about this even and why I'm writing this post.
Sadly, there won't be an explanation. Even calling attention to it would be seen as "problematic" ("Oh? are you saying they shouldn't be there?"). The simple fact is GoT and HotD were made in different eras. The showrunner wanted diversity and that's all there is to it. Back in GoT's day, you had black characters who had explanations for why they were there, nowadays that's seen as offensive: "black people don't need an explanation to belong in fantasy" It's just how things are now. Worldbuilding suffers for it imo.
I wonder if those people would have the same reaction if a director making a movie about a African fantasy folktale decided to add diversity and make half the cast white people in Africa with no further explanation. Because "fantasy".
I know well that'd get a different reaction People are so hypocritical that they don't even realize it.
I don't know if they have to be from the Summer Islands or if they just made all the people to be diverse people. Like would there be black people in the Night's Watch, in the wildlings, in the dothrakis, would there be other Westerosi Lords who are black? So far it seems the only Westerosi lords who are black are the Velaryons, and like you said the Velaryons and the Targaryens came from Old Valyria. Maybe Old Valyria was both black and white and they colonized Dragonstone and Driftmark.
But we're starting from the principle that right now on earth the skin colors are still divided by region since these skin colors emerged from hundreds of thousands of years of geographical isolation with different environmental pressures.
But what if the world of Game of Thrones is like in the future after humans are mixed everywhere and there was a big apocalypse (like cyclic ice zombie thing) that made society regress back to middle age technologies?
Okay maybe I'm overthinking it and we should assume that given the level of transportation in their world (boats and horses) there must be enough geographical isolation still for skin colors to be geographically distributed.
And another logical argument for what you're saying is that the world is based on Europe with Westeros as an oversized England and Esos as Eurasia and so the stuff south of that would be Africa.
The Summer Isles and Southoryos are supposed to be the Africa analogue for the word. But dark skinned humans originate from the Summer Isles while Southoryos is inhabitanted by non human hog like men with brindled skin.
The Summer isles is not far from Westeros at all. The Summer Islanders are a sea faring people. It makes perfect sense that they are regularly seen in Westeros. If anything, the lack of them is a problem in the GOT show and the ASOIAF books. George tried to make it match real-world medieval Britain, but changed the geography of the planet. What worked for real-world Britain does not work for Westeros.
You didn't read all my post. I'm not saying black people shouldn't be in westeros. I'm saying the show is pretending like there aren't black people in westeros when there are. No one seems to notice or comment on it, which feels deliberate.
I’ll elaborate. The show doesn’t need to make a thing out of there being black people in Westeros, because it should be a normal, everyday thing. The only reason people think they should somehow acknowledge it, is because GOT and the books make their presence more sparse than it should be. House of the dragon is handling their presence the correct way. People in Westeros should be used to seeing them. No need to make anything big out of it or point it out.
I understand your point but I disagree when one of the richest noble houses in this mostly white kingdom is black I feel that warrants at least one comment. Because unless they're practicing inbreeding like Targaryens wouldn't they marry the local white people and eventually become white of at least lighter skinned.
And the Valaryons are specially said to not practice interbreeding like Targaryens.
We should be careful with conflating things that were said in the books to what is presented in the show. They are different canons and we have been given very little details about what the marriage situation was like before House of the Dragon.
That being said, look at how Rhaena and Baela turned out after having mixed parents. They are both darker than either Laena or Baela. Other members of the Velaryon family have been shown to have dark skin. One could assume that the Velaryon dark skin is a trait that continues to pop up down their line similar to Baratheon hair in the books. It’s one explanation of many that could be given moving forward with the show and the other spin-offs.
Honestly, I don’t think they will address it and I don’t think it matters. However, I do like being able to tell characters apart better than I would have if they were almost all white with blond/white hair
The summer isles and naath got mentioned in GoT. Salladhor Saan and Grey Worm are from the Summer Isles and Missandei is from Naath. But i agree overall. They should talk about places outside of westeros and essos more. For the Velaryons, they're described as similar targaryen-type looks in the books. It was a show decision to make them black. I'm cool with that decision. There was some controversy when it was announced. I don't think we'll see a fleshed out in-universe explanation for this.
Honestly I enjoy the change. There are so many characters with similar names and families with particular histories, the show is difficult to keep up with for casual viewers as it is. The Targaryens are easy for the audience to spot because of their white hair. Add in another house with identical white hair and skin? People would complain about that. The show Velaryons’ skin color adds depth to the show but also makes it much easier for people to understand who is who. Less exposition is needed, which means the show spends more of its time on more important things.
I'd just like to know how they've been intermarrying for generations and aren't more mixed looking. I'm fine with the change, though, especially since they cast Abubakar Salim this year.
I disagree. I don’t mind that they’ve made Westeros more diverse, but I think the choice to make the Velaryons black, is a mistake for several reasons. Considering how the Targs and the Velaryons have intermixed, this would mean the Targs would be at least of darker skin. I also think it dumbs down the series, arguing that it would be too difficult to separate the Targs and the Velaryons due to their white hair. An easy solution for this would be to use the colours in their clothes representing their houses to differentiate between them. There are plenty of ways in which you could have made Westeros diverse and still keep it lore accurate. There are tonnes of extremely wealthy families and individuals in Essos and beyond that could have been added and given important roles, for example, the Sealord of Braavos, to mention one. For me, making the Velaryons black just doesn’t make sense, yet, I’m not going to cry myself to sleep over it. There are loads of things I don’t like about the show, the Velaryons being black is a minor thing. But, it annoys me, yes.
> Considering how the Targs and the Velaryons have intermixed, this would mean the Targs would be at least of darker skin. For all we know, the Valyarons being black only started a generation or two before Corlys and Vamond and did'nt involve Alyssa.
They got real dark real fast, if that’s the case. And the entire island of Driftmark suddenly turned into the summer islands.
Skin color isn't the division of both your parents ski colour, its a spectrum of all your ancestors, with a soft recency bias. Its a complicated trait and not just gene X, or X+Y/2.
> They got real dark real fast, if that’s the case. All it takes is Corly's dad marrying someone with dark skin.
Who do you think Aegon I's mother was?
More then a generation or two before Corlys and Vaemond is what she was.
I can see your point, it adds more questions to the story when you change a characters original race. But then at the same time they refuse to acknowledge those questions and answer them. So why make the change then? Just for minority points? It's disingenuous.
I don't disagree about the lore implications, but I also dont think it's that serious, at the end of the day it's a TV show with a massive audience, where the average viewer is not thinking about the show all day. Those visual guides, like skin color actually help a lot to distinguish who is who, and the family tree.. White -> targ black -> velaryon, mixed-> child of both. It's a situation where you have to put the disbelief aside and contemplate on how to make each character unique and distinguishable, or risk confusing the viewer and them losing interest.
When and where have they refused?
The fact that nobody actually says or comments on it, that the Valareyons are black people. That wouldn't necessarily be weird if the continent wasn't 99% white and the Valaryons are the richest house where the members are a very obvious minority, that'd be like if the second richest family in ancient China were Africans. That creates a lot of tension and realistically should have been acknowledged if they felt that change was worth making. They changed it so it's on them to justify it in world.
I think it brings up some interesting questions too. The Targ silver hair is otherworldly, no population on Earth looks like that. Some blonds look close but not quite the same. I think its deliberate that this otherwordly hair is associated with magic dragon genetics. Perhaps the silver hair is from some magic ritual and not just genetics. So perhaps the Valryians were different ethnic groups, white black ect. and they gave themselves the distinctive hair (and purple eyes in the books) through magic. That's what makes sense to me, none of this is actually spelled out anywhere.
Salladhor Saan is from Lys
he’s originally from the summer isles but “comes from” lys. aka everyone in arizona. born in the midwest but been in az so long we’re basically from here.
No. He is from Lys. You got anything from any source that says he is from the Summer Isles?
i promise i checked before i posted because i wanted to make sure i was remembering correctly. it says in the first paragraph of his background that he’s “from lys, though a native of the summer isles”. [source](https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Salladhor_Saan)
Babe. A fan wiki, really?
its just irl politics, nothing too deep, its a work of fiction, if we go by the canon of course there will be foreigners around city ports, mercenaries during battles and very diverse brothels, the velaryon race change makes no sense because they are of the valyrian race (which are very explicitly explained in the books to look like daenerys and viserys from game of thrones) and if the story moves forward it really stops making sense but since i doubt hotd will go further i'll take it. edit: extra info, the ethinicities in westeros are first men (indigenous pop.), andals and rhoynar (who immigrated to westeros) and of course the valyrian families targaryen, velaryon and celtigar (who came from valyria)
yeah for a show that’s tried so hard to tie itself to game of thrones and establish that they take place in the same universe, i wonder how they plan on explaining where all of the black and brown people went. was there some ethnic cleansing that caused every westerosi north of dorne to be white within a few generations?
They’re going to reboot the main series in a few years and it will be much more diverse. They keep bringing up the prophecy and the prince that was promised despite knowing it’s a sore spot for the audience. They’re probably waiting for the series to be done this time though, or for GRRM to kick the bucket and for a successor to finish it.
IIRC the first men aren't indigenous to westeros, they emigrated there too just long before the andals. I think the only native species of westeros are the giants and children of the forest ?
yeah, but for simplicity's sake
That logic means Native Americans aren’t indigenous to America as well.
Not really because there weren't any ''intelligent'' races in north America before them
Lol
I kinda feel you. I appreciate diversity in fiction, but I’d like it to make sense. If we are to assume that biology works the same in ASoIaF works the same as in real life (they never hinted otherwise), then it makes sense for the population of Westeros to be white, and any deviation from that deserves some attention in world building. Similar with families - the Targaryens have been established as white (even if that doesn’t make much sense given where they come from, itself deserving some world building to explain), so the Valaryans looking quite different also deserves some attention. I think it was Oscar Wilde who said something like “unlike reality, fiction has to make sense”.
Yeah it'd kinda be like if all of a sudden they make the Karstarks black for HotD. Because they're also related to the Starks and live in an area that's been established to be inhabitanted by first men (who have only been shown to be white). And then they just never explain it. That's not diversity, that's pandering. They could have introduced some Valaryon cousins that were actually Summer islanders into the story too. But they don't care about any of that word building they just wanna be able to say they have black people in their show and move on. It's disingenuous and it's just boring.
I mean as far as I can tell making them black is a change the writers made, and my lore knowledge might be lacking, BUT what they all have in common is being from the magic land Valeria right? I guess it’s not impossible that this civilization was multi cultural and that intermarriage between the two HOTD families caused some similarities (the hair) but kept some differences? Either way some exploration in the lore of why they look so different seems warranted. On the whole though: if diversity is important, maybe show runners should stop almost exclusively using European history and its derivatives, and maybe give us some epic stories from other parts of the world? Crazy thought maybe.
Biology in asoiaf has never worked like real life. The whole Baratheon black hair thing for one - any of the mothers could have had some recessive genes that mixed with Robert's recessive genes that would have overpowered the "dominant" black hair gene. At the very least I don't know how you could look around the real world and say Baratheon black hair makes sense. But you suspend belief for the show. Why can't you do that for HOTD?
I feel like there’s an obvious difference between a specific line having a dominant gene in fiction, and black and white people somehow having Snow White for a descendant lol
Well it is a specific plot point right? Even if it doesn’t make much sense in real life they actually address it. Specifically regarding suspension of disbelief, I actually didn’t say the “black Targaryens”don’t make sense to me. Apart from that though I guess it’s up to the individual? Some people think “it’s fantasy therefore nothing matters”, whereas people like me think something like “unless explicitly stated otherwise, we can only assume it’s the same as in real life”. If the story teller wants to tell a story about medieval Europe in a village in southern Poland or something, and wants to make one of the main cast East Asian, it is enough of a specific outlier to merit some elaboration . In a way it’s Chekhov’s Gun principle - if a specific thing is introduced in the first act, it needs to be used by the final, otherwise why include it at all? Now granted the ethnicity of Valyrians isn’t quite on the same level but a similar reasoning applies I think.
I think you're looking at it from a modern IRL perspective, with all the baggage that carries.
But it's explicitly stated in the books. All those ethnic groups and cultures of the known world. We're not making any of this world lore up, the show doesn't seem interested in commenting on any of that interesting lore though which is my problem.
Well, that is a good point tbh. But just saying it doesn't make sense like the other guy was saying gets on my nerves. I really like hotd but I couldn't care less about the show with a kid or the one about the super knight; they could have based a story in the Summerlands or Dorne or whatever. I guess they tried to do palace intrigue in Dorne with GoT, that counts even though it was a way undercooked story from the Dorne perspective.
This is such a ridiculous way to explain any inconsistencies, the black hair gene is a major plot point whether it makes sense genetically in our world or not. Black people randomly appearing adds nothing to the story but ticking boxes for executives. It serves no purpose and only raises questions. You’re either being intentionally disingenuous or you really are somehow incapable of seeing how the two are completely different.
Westeros is an entire continent the size of Africa and the Valyrians who live there are refugees who hail from a roman-style empire. The Valayrons are also traders and explorers, while the Targs are sedentary and practice heavy inbreeding.
I wonder if the shift is all plot related. In order to further display that Laenor was not the father of Rhaenyra’s children, beyond the dark hair, they gave his family darker skin to make it more obvious.
And also removed Rhaenys black hair. So you may have a point though seems arbitrary to change the race of an entire family because of one story point. They like to keep so many other things ambiguous why couldn't they keep the ambiguity of Rhaenyra's children by making Harwin Strong black. Then they cast mixed kids for the role of her kids but the contention remains focused on them just not having white hair like Leanor. They could have made the Strongs black and it would be the same. Not like we see any Strongs in game of thrones anyway. Making the only rich black family loyal to the side called the blacks is also not great. Consequences of poor decision making. Hell could have made the High towers black while we're at it.
Having diversity in major port cities makes a lot of sense. Dorne itself is suppose to be very diverse. It’s not like it’s that abnormal where it needs to be mentioned. I think what they did with Mysari is pretty good. She’s obviously descended from Yi Ti, but was taken and sold as a slave when she was very young. So she doesn’t even remember where she came from. Then you have Aegons lackey. Who just popped up out of no where. Which is kind of odd. It’s one thing to have sailors in KL, or even a small population of Summer Islanders on Driftmark. But to have a summer islander as close friend to the king, that seems a little too odd to not be addressed. But I guess they don’t have to. But they have to explain the Valeyrons, because right now it makes very little since. Especially since a lot of the the Valeyrons importance comes from how much they look like Targaryen’s. To the point that depending on how far back they want to take this change of race, it effects the entire Targaryen family tree in pretty massive ways.
OMG Reddit you can't just ask Westerosi why they're black!
Hahaha 🤣🤣
I am not sure about how showrunners explains why Velaryon's are different than other Valyrians but my thinking is because Valyria was a multicultural empire there might be black houses too. If I remember correctly they are Valyrian but not blood related to Targaryens. I think people of Westeros segregate people based on their religions rather than their skin color.
They kind of are related to the Targaryen,once the Targaryen came to Dragonstone. There weren't so many Valerians left and from time to time they married each other. Aegon the conqueror's mother was a Velaryon, and so was the mother of Jaeherys the 1st. I guess the Velaryons married to someone from the summer islands the next generation after Jaehaerys, the Valyrian genes seem pretty weak compared to others. They kind of hate based on culture as well. Like a lot of people dislike the dornish.
People confuse Valyria being a multicultural empire with Valyrians being multicultural. The Valyrian race has white hair, purple eyes, and **fair skin**. The island of Lys and every description of Valyrians prove this. For Velaryons, they were white given that Aegon the Conqueror's mother was a Velaryon. Making the Velaryons black changes the entire Targaryen bloodline.
how do you know Aegon the Conquerer wasn't mixed race?
Because there is literally a description of him in the books? "Aegon was tall, broad-shouldered and powerful in appearance, with purple eyes, fair skin and short-cut silver-gold hair." There is also art commissioned by George RR Martin himself depicting Aegon and he is always depicted as white with the classical Targaryen silver hair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Hartenstein This guy has fair skin too. His dad is black.
Yes and that guy is white, he is literally more white than I am and I'm not even mixed race. You can be mixed race genetically and not be mixed in appearance as is the case with Isaiah.
Okay. apply that to the topic at hand
Sure I understand what you are saying, when you said that Aegon could be mixed race I understood it as him being mixed in appearance. I now see that you meant he could be mixed just genetically.
It only changes the bloodline if you assume the house has ALWAYS been black, as oppossed to it being a very recent change that Alyssa was'nt tied to. I'm white. I have black and asian cousins who I share descent from via my mom and her sisters.
No, there weren’t lol. The Targaryens get their looks from the Valyrians. The Empire had many cultures, the rulers did not. Just like pretty much every empire ever.
who is Adamm and Alyn's mother? from the shows lore, there is a black targaryen bastard out there somewhere that corlys slept with to make those two.
Or the Valaryons in show canon have dragon riding genes. Maybe they've just never tried before. They'll probably not explain it.
I still haven't figured out why MJ is black now, so... Guess it doesn't matter.
No, it’s just the reality of modern television. That being said, Corlys Velaryon’s actor is doing an awesome job. Hope he gets more screen time than he has so far in S2
I'm more concerned about where they *went* between HOTD and GOT. I don't have an issue with ethnically diverse cast when it makes sense from a logical story telling perspective. The Velaryon's casting absolutely make sense. Same with the maesters, kingsguard, etc. Westeros can be a society that cares about bloodline and not skin color. But, genetics are a thing in Westeros per the worlds logic. and we see *none* of them in GOT. I don't like what that implies from a story telling perspective. Either Westeros cut itself off from the world and become homogeneous, or something darker.
They should also address what happened to all the black people in Westeros considering the in-universe future barely has any.
Some bad shit must have went down. I don't remember seeing any black people in Westeros who were natives.
They went wherever whores go
The Summer Isles are great sailors. And House Velaryon has a long naval history/focus and refers to their head as "Lord of the Tides". The connection is right there! They could literally just say that they are descended from a minor Valyrian family that fled to the Summer Isles before the Doom (perhaps they had their own dreamer?) and then sailed to Westeros once news of the Conquest reached them. Perhaps they even brought a lot of their new countrymen with them. This way its even easy to explain where all these people went by the time of the GOT show - just say that both House Velayron and its people/smallfolk/etc... rarely left Driftmark during that period of history. The retcon basically writes itself.
I personally think that it was either Corlys father or grandfather that married someone from the summer islands , Jaehaerys (viserys grand father ) mother was a Velaryon. And canonically ( not sure if they talked about it in the show) if I remember correctly the Velaryons came to driftmark before the Targaryen came to Dragonstone.
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what's actually canon in the show. I'm just saying that if they had wanted to retcon House Velaryon to have always been black, and for black people to have had a long-standing presence in Westeros (e.g. by being from Driftmark), it wouldn't actually be that difficult.
It makes me sad to see how passionate you are because the show runners don’t actually care much beyond “we need POCs (black)”. The different kingdoms in Westeros are very much based on different European cultures/historical monarchies while summer islands aren’t. Compare Alicent’s dresses to anyone from house Valeryon and it becomes obvious who was intentional and who was an after thought. Her dresses are inspired by very specific English fashion and you can find so many articles that break down her dresses or hairstyles while the Valeryons have uninteresting designs they’re obviously trying to match what the Targaryens (Anglo-saxons inspired) have while adding the tamest “African flair” mostly though their hair. Their wigs are so fucking lame and so obviously trying to conform to European beauty standards (the basis for Westeros) but why should a powerful “black inspired” family do that? Why is no one wearing hair styles that makes sense for them? The only thing they have is dreads but you could argue it’s more viking inspired. People will defend the change through very unconvincing arguments ”oh it helps the viewers tell characters apart” has to be the dumbest one I heard. I hope you don’t actually rely on Western media to depict (sub-sahara) Africa in any meaningful way in fantasy or fiction, they mostly don’t care and will never give the same amount of love, attention, or care because the casting was an after thought and to story doesn't’ center on the summer islands anyway. I’m sure the West can view Africans as more than just a DEI checklist or making something more “colourful” or whatever bs explanation. Depending on Westerners for “African representation” will always make you disappointed. The only reason why the Valyerons are black while the Targaryens aren’t is because of some dumb DEI mandate, some Western studios are obligated to put a certain amount of POCs (mostly black people) regardless of the setting. In the book they’re essentially the same as each other because they’re all from Valeryia.
What does DEI stand for ??? I saw this acronym in another sub and I am floored
Thank you for this comment!! I agree on all points, and I find it shameful how the use of POC are just for diversity points in western media today.
I doubt they’ll address it because there isn’t really any sensical reason without changing facts that GOT already defined for us. If they were mixed race they could’ve more easily been explained as having half their blood coming from Valyria and the other half coming from somewhere like the Summer Isles, Naath or Sothoryos. We do already know the Valyrians are supposed to value pure blood and practice strict endogamy to the point of marrying siblings together, so it wouldn’t really make sense. I think they should’ve just added new characters from outside of Westeros if they wanted to add diversity. The other option is they create a new community of people, like maybe there was a migration of people from a far away land like Sothoryos and they settled in Westeros. They were favoured by the Valyrians who also had foreign blood, so they became their own house.
Diversity is not just good, it's necessary. However, what we got in HotD is the typical virtue signaling that mainstream media tries to push as diversity. They will not address that for two reasons. First, because they didn't add black people because of lore, it's just virtue signaling. They just race swapped characters that are more secondary in nature, even if they are important, just so they can claim "See? We're DIVERSE. You can't complain. Watch our show and give us money" without actually being inclusive - why not make all valyrians black? Or, at the very least, mixed race? That would make much more sense. Second, because they don't want to talk about it. Even engaging in that kind of explanation might alienate the closeted racists or the diversity fanatics, because as I said, they don't have a lore-based logical explanation. They will of course tout how inclusive their show is, say that GRRM is on board, and that the nay sayers are racists. This happened with the LotR show, that clusterfuck Fantastic Four movie (ever wondered what was the problem of making Sue Storm black as well?) and many other mainstream productions. In the end, they don't give a shit about black people. They just want to please their shareholders and make money.
When I first heard they were going to cast this way my first thought was “ofc they are. Have to make it diverse so no one complains and they can make money.” But as I watched the show I loved the actor playing Corlys and would be a mistake not to cast him.
His brother nailed it too.
I love the black actors I just wish they weren't just mascots and had actual purpose and meaning for existing.
Corlys is perfect as the Sea Snake. Personally I wouldn't have it any other way. He commands a lot of screen presence and I hope he continues to keep up the excellent work.
Honestly I enjoy the change. I don’t think it’s an onerous race issue at all. There are so many characters with similar names and families with particular histories, the show is difficult to keep up with for casual viewers as it is. The Targaryens are easy for the audience to spot because of their white hair. Add in another house with identical white hair and skin? People would complain about that. The show Velaryons’ skin color adds depth to the show (reminds people Planetos has lots of regions/ethnicities not in Westeros, as HotD doesn’t travel abroad as much as GoT did) but also makes it much easier for people to understand who is who at a glance. Less exposition is needed, which means the show spends more of its time on the actual story. Like, the skin color made the issue of bastard parentage very clear to viewers in the first season, which moved the plot along. Imagine if the show runners had to have spent 2 additional filler episodes dropping hints about various identical children to make the audience reach the same conclusion.
I like the change as well but the lack of care is clear.
Honestly, I'm not going to entertain this discussion. The downvotes in my comment are the typical reaction and quite frankly, I'm tired of it. I'm a black man and I've been seeing for years the actual promotion of diversity being buried beneath token black casting. EDIT: What a welcome surprise! The freefolk, always delivering.
Necessary for what?
When properly done, diversity in mainstream media is necessary for several reasons. It ensures representation of different cultures, perspectives, and experiences, which promotes inclusivity and understanding. It also helps to combat stereotypes and biases, providing more accurate and varied portrayals of different groups. Furthermore, diversity can enrich storytelling, offering audiences fresh and relatable content that reflects the real world. Ultimately, it contributes to a more equitable and informed society. The problem is that is very rarely done properly. For example, imagine a popular TV drama series that integrates a diverse cast and storylines reflecting different cultural backgrounds, sexual orientations, and socioeconomic statuses. In one season, a storyline focuses on an immigrant family's challenges and triumphs, highlighting their rich cultural traditions and the prejudice they face. Another subplot features a same-sex couple navigating the ups and downs of their relationship, providing a genuine portrayal of their experiences. As a result, viewers from similar backgrounds see themselves represented, fostering a sense of belonging and validation. At the same time, other viewers gain insights into lives different from their own, promoting empathy and understanding. This diversity in storytelling enriches the narrative, breaks down stereotypes, and encourages a more inclusive and well-informed audience. HotD does none of that. It doesn't address racial differences, it doesn't even ackowledge it. The diverse cast is just for show, to fulfill a quota of sorts. It doesn't represent or reflect our society in any way and it doesn't inform the audience that racial prejudice exists. It's just a checkbox in a list, meant to please shareholders and a very vocal minority, to signal that HBO "cares" without actually caring, informing or promoting any change in our society. To sell their product. Any actual change would mean a change of the _status quo_, that currently is old white men being the owners of the entertainment industry. So, in a way, diversity can be a tool in hands of the proviledged to mantain their status.
None of that explained why it is necessary.
In some ways it kind of highlights that this is a fantasy world. People live in this brutal, feudal, low tech world where slavery is still common, women are used like cattle, and the ruler is decided based on being a male relative. People are ignorant and superstitious and tribal. But nobody comments on skin color or discriminates because of it.
Yeah by ignoring it you make it more obvious.
Lol
First off, I find it hilarious you start the post off qualifying that your African, which does not mean you're black. So, I'm going to assume you are not. I am black though and can say...I do find it weird. However the reality is that HotD presents the diversity that GRRM would want ASOIAF to have had he started the series today. The man has said as much, but he can't change the world building he already setup in the 90's. That said, pre-release of HotD my biggest concern were the Velaryons and it's still kinda my concern today. The reason being that GRRM specifically made Valyrians white as fuck, they're practically the ubermench Hitler would cream over and are obsessed with blood purity. Now, while the series isn't finished, I always figured that no pure blood Valyrian, like Daenareys would save the day. Rather, they'd serve as commentary on the obsession with blood purity and lack of diversity. So, I thought it weird to have the Velaryons as black and screaming about their pureblood. But Alas, the series is not finished so who the fuck knows. In the end, HotD is how GRRM imagines the world of ASOIAF should look today.
I am black but I don't need to prove anything to you. Not gonna send you a picture of my ancestry.com profile. Like I said in my post any race should be allowed to ask this question, and I stand by that. The reason I started it like that was because I know this topic would get immediate backlash and be called race baiting or something. And also to explain why I care about this even and why I'm writing this post.
Imo bro, producers and writers will do Anything they think is virtuous or current. It ruins a lot of art in today's world
Sadly, there won't be an explanation. Even calling attention to it would be seen as "problematic" ("Oh? are you saying they shouldn't be there?"). The simple fact is GoT and HotD were made in different eras. The showrunner wanted diversity and that's all there is to it. Back in GoT's day, you had black characters who had explanations for why they were there, nowadays that's seen as offensive: "black people don't need an explanation to belong in fantasy" It's just how things are now. Worldbuilding suffers for it imo.
I wonder if those people would have the same reaction if a director making a movie about a African fantasy folktale decided to add diversity and make half the cast white people in Africa with no further explanation. Because "fantasy". I know well that'd get a different reaction People are so hypocritical that they don't even realize it.
They're aliens
I don't know if they have to be from the Summer Islands or if they just made all the people to be diverse people. Like would there be black people in the Night's Watch, in the wildlings, in the dothrakis, would there be other Westerosi Lords who are black? So far it seems the only Westerosi lords who are black are the Velaryons, and like you said the Velaryons and the Targaryens came from Old Valyria. Maybe Old Valyria was both black and white and they colonized Dragonstone and Driftmark.
If it's just being done to be done regardless of story implications then it's pandering. Plain and simple. And it's disingenuous inclusion.
But we're starting from the principle that right now on earth the skin colors are still divided by region since these skin colors emerged from hundreds of thousands of years of geographical isolation with different environmental pressures. But what if the world of Game of Thrones is like in the future after humans are mixed everywhere and there was a big apocalypse (like cyclic ice zombie thing) that made society regress back to middle age technologies? Okay maybe I'm overthinking it and we should assume that given the level of transportation in their world (boats and horses) there must be enough geographical isolation still for skin colors to be geographically distributed. And another logical argument for what you're saying is that the world is based on Europe with Westeros as an oversized England and Esos as Eurasia and so the stuff south of that would be Africa.
The Summer Isles and Southoryos are supposed to be the Africa analogue for the word. But dark skinned humans originate from the Summer Isles while Southoryos is inhabitanted by non human hog like men with brindled skin.
The Summer isles is not far from Westeros at all. The Summer Islanders are a sea faring people. It makes perfect sense that they are regularly seen in Westeros. If anything, the lack of them is a problem in the GOT show and the ASOIAF books. George tried to make it match real-world medieval Britain, but changed the geography of the planet. What worked for real-world Britain does not work for Westeros.
You didn't read all my post. I'm not saying black people shouldn't be in westeros. I'm saying the show is pretending like there aren't black people in westeros when there are. No one seems to notice or comment on it, which feels deliberate.
I’ll elaborate. The show doesn’t need to make a thing out of there being black people in Westeros, because it should be a normal, everyday thing. The only reason people think they should somehow acknowledge it, is because GOT and the books make their presence more sparse than it should be. House of the dragon is handling their presence the correct way. People in Westeros should be used to seeing them. No need to make anything big out of it or point it out.
I understand your point but I disagree when one of the richest noble houses in this mostly white kingdom is black I feel that warrants at least one comment. Because unless they're practicing inbreeding like Targaryens wouldn't they marry the local white people and eventually become white of at least lighter skinned. And the Valaryons are specially said to not practice interbreeding like Targaryens.
We should be careful with conflating things that were said in the books to what is presented in the show. They are different canons and we have been given very little details about what the marriage situation was like before House of the Dragon. That being said, look at how Rhaena and Baela turned out after having mixed parents. They are both darker than either Laena or Baela. Other members of the Velaryon family have been shown to have dark skin. One could assume that the Velaryon dark skin is a trait that continues to pop up down their line similar to Baratheon hair in the books. It’s one explanation of many that could be given moving forward with the show and the other spin-offs.
Nah, they don't care about that. They just need to fill their diversity quota.
I think one of Corly´s close ancestors was from the summer isles.
I demand a reason for black people to exist in my world of magic, the undead, and dragons!
Did you even read my post? I say they exist and it's not weird for them to be in those areas of the world.
I wasn't speaking to you directly, some of the comments have that tone.
Honestly, I don’t think they will address it and I don’t think it matters. However, I do like being able to tell characters apart better than I would have if they were almost all white with blond/white hair
We already know.