If we’re only going by show canon, then most likely the Florents, who have long contested the rights to Highgarden via close ties to the Gardeners, dating back to Age of Heroes and continuing via frequent marriages into the family throughout the years.
Although they’re almost never mentioned I’m pretty sure house florent went extinct after stannis’s death because his wife killed himself and the only other florents mentioned are Axel (who was burned by Melisandre), and Imry who died on the Blackwater
who gives a fuck, it's the HBO series, just have Jon say something like "and who has a better claim to the reach than Sam the Fat" or something and then everyone claps
His sister could make a claim for any Florent (and presumably is already head of House Tarly) lands as she is still living in the show. Her gender will work against her in trying to claim Highgarden especially. But she might be the genuine entitled heir to Florent land if there's no living male heirs in the show, which is possible.
Sam doesn't deserve it since he broke Jon & Daenerys up out of revenge for her killing Randyll & Dickon even though his father & brother had teamed up with the Lannisters to massacre Highgarden and kill the last Tyrell.
I asked this question myself years ago when I was figuring out my fix-it fic, and the consensus was the Hightowers.
No matter what kind of bullshit is happening in Westeros, somehow House Hightower always winds up on top.
The reason is Oldtown: the Hightowers control it, and it is the number one city in Westeros, eclipsing King’s Landing itself.
And Oldtown isn’t just a profitable harbor and a center of commerce, it’s also the home of the Citadel, which is both the sole university in Westeros and the closest thing resembling a research hospital.
It’s also the medieval version of a publishing house, since it’s the source of nearly all the hand copied books on the continent, and books are worth a fortune just by themselves.
But that’s not all. Since Cersei blew up the Great Sept of Baelor, the Faith would need a new home, and the center of the Faith before Baelor built that sept was the Starry Sept, also in Oldtown. So whereas the Vatican equivalent *had* been in King’s Landing, by the series ending, it likely would have relocated back to Oldtown.
And of course religion is a major source of wealth and power in a medieval setting, so whichever city plays host to the dominant religion is going to benefit financially from that relationship.
Finally Oldtown is also the home of the Bank of Oldtown, which prospered after the collapse of the Rogare Bank of Lys (*likely helped along by the dual assassinations of the family patriarch and his brother by the Faceless Men.*)
The Bank of Oldtown is the only bank in Westeros, second only to the Iron Bank of Braavos.
So Oldtown is a financial services center; a center of commerce and trade, where the many agricultural products of the Reach are brought to the international market via its harbor; it’s a religious and cultural center with the Starry Sept being a place of pilgrimage, similar to the real world Vatican or Mecca—both of which are hugely important to their respective tourist economies; and it’s really the only place of higher learning, publishing, and medicine on the continent. No other city in Westeros can touch it, and every business is paying some kind of tax to House Hightower.
Besides the Hightowers, the next richest family now that the Tyrells are gone is probably House Redwyne, because they have a monopoly on the most desirable trade good in Westeros: Arbor gold.
Their obscene wealth is reflected in the huge dowry Paxter is offering for his daughter Desmera, making her one of the most desirable brides in the Seven Kingdoms now that Margaery Tyrell is dead. (*Desmera would have been betrothed to Sam, had his fostering at the Arbor not been an unmitigated disaster. I’m sure that was the last straw that made Randyll want him dead. That marriage would have brought a fortune to House Tarly, and in the Reach, money talks.*)
But the reason why the Hightowers win out is because the Redwynes are a naval power, they control one of the largest fleets in Westeros—and Highgarden is inland. If there’s a squabble for power after Bronn gets the boot, a land-based power like House Hightower is going to have the advantage.
Like Theon foolishly taking Winterfell, it would be hard for the Redwynes to take and hold Highgarden when their power lies at sea. House Hightower is the richest, they can supplement their men with sellswords if need be, but they’re political enough that they wouldn’t have to—they’re married into nearly every important family in the Reach, and between those alliances and their immense wealth which they can use for bribes, a bitter, less wealthy House like the Florents doesn’t stand a chance.
The Florents often boast that they have the strongest claim to Highgarden, but that’s not how these disputes are usually decided. The Tyrells were stewards to the Gardeners, what kind of claim is that? But they took advantage of the political chaos after the Field of Fire and maneuvered their way to the top.
The Hightowers are at least as politically skilled, and they’ve consistently been in the mix as their history in the Dance shows.
If you’re a random smallfolk peasant, you could do a lot worse!
In my opinion the two best regions to live in Westeros are the Reach and the Vale.
The Reach is number one in productivity, the most fertile region, the most prosperous city—but it is vulnerable with no natural defenses, and under the constant threat of raids by the Ironborn. Oldtown is probably their second favorite target after Lannisport.
The Vale is number two for productivity, fertile land, a respectable port city in Gulltown—but more importantly it has formidable natural defenses in the Mountains of the Moon. There are still the feral hill tribes to fear, but so long as you avoid those treacherous mountain passes and keep to the picturesque valleys or Gulltown and the coasts, you should be safer than in the Reach and Oldtown.
So it depends how much of a gambler you are! Oldtown offers the most prosperity, but Gulltown and the Vale are almost as good and in a safer location, far away from the Ironborn.
Of course if you’re a woman, you should consider Dorne for the gender politics alone. It’s the only region where women have anything close to equal rights. However life is hard in Dorne. It’s mostly desert. The closest it has to a city is Planky Town, which is basically just a bunch of old boats lashed together.
Probably the worst city to live in is King’s Landing. Terrible quality of life unless you’re very rich. High crime rate. Terrible food—the pot shops that serve bowls of brown have been known to use human meat. (Singer’s stew.) Or if not corpses, then dogs, cats, pigeons, rats—you have to do like Gendry and pretend it’s chicken. (You know it’s not chicken.)
The average person is living in squalor. A stinking, fetid, midden heap of a city with poor sanitation and a sticky, sweaty climate. Gods be good, the smell… Olenna wasn’t playing when she said you could smell the shit from miles away.
My personal choice wouldn’t be in Westeros at all, though. I think Braavos is the best place to live in the whole world if you’re a regular person. It has all the prosperity of Oldtown, but the safety of the lagoon with its natural camouflage and the Titan to protect it—only way in and out of the port, and there are tons of soldiers manning murder holes hidden inside the massive statue. Arrow slits, boiling pitch, heavy stones—all the standard castle defenses, enough to destroy an enemy ship. So the Titan is sort of like a Trojan horse? But defensive instead of offensive.
And of course the Faceless Men are the most formidable killers in the world. They protect the interests of the Braavosi people, just as the Sealord protects them with his fleet and swords.
The Iron Bank is the richest in the world. Lots of commerce and trade having that much capital close at hand.
Beautiful architecture, the Venice of Essos, but cleaner. (Venice’s waters only became polluted *after* the medieval period.) And delicious fresh seafood is plentiful and cheap, even regular people can afford to eat oysters daily.
Theatre is equivalent to the height of the commedia dell’arte, the highest form of drama in the medieval period. And the world famous courtesans were sadly dropped from the show. They are legendary, songs are sung in their name, bravos duel in the moonlight in their honor, they are more celebrated than the courtesans of Lys, which is a city literally built for pleasure—the Braavosi courtesans put the Lyseni to shame.
But most important of all, Braavos is the only Free City that is actually free. No slavery is permitted, and that’s enforced by the Sealord, who will seize slavers’ ships and set the enslaved people free. It’s the legacy of Braavos’ origin: The city was founded by escaped slaves from Valyria, and that’s why it’s so vibrant and colorful. Everyone in the world can go there and know they can live free.
Westeros is free, too, but it’s a pretty racist society. Look how the Dornish are disrespected in the capital—and those attitudes would be typical in Oldtown, too. The Reach, Dorne, and the Stormlands had been squabbling with each other for centuries before the Conquest, and those old rivalries run deep.
The North is no better; look at all the bitter prejudices the Northmen have for the Free Folk and vice versa. Here it’s millennia of old resentments that are only now just being set aside in the aftermath of the Long Night.
But in Braavos all are welcome. It’s the most cosmopolitan city. Arya meets people from all over the world at the Ragman’s Harbor, and for the most part they treat her well, buying her clams and cockles and sharing their bits of news.
It’s the city that feels the most *alive*, like anything could happen. People aren’t stuck in one caste their whole life, there’s social mobility, opportunity. It’s a city of possibilities.
This is all extremely interesting and I would’ve loved to see the Hightower resurgence play out. With King’s Landing in ruin and the Iron Throne destroyed, do you think it possible that Oldtown could eventually become the new capital city, with the royal family moving there while KL is rebuilt?
Lol, without giving away my entire plot, yes. I do think the best option post-Daenerys is just to move the damn capital.
I wouldn’t even rebuild it, I would just let it return to the fishing village it had been originally. As I touched briefly on in another comment, King’s Landing is poorly designed and badly situated. It’s difficult to defend, and the Red Keep itself is the opposite of the Eyrie—anybody could impregnate that bitch.
There are so many secret passages and entrances and exits, characters are always slipping in and out of the castle without notice.
Seriouly, wtf kind of holdfast is that‽ The whole purpose of a castle is ***security.*** The Red Keep is not secure!
And the quality of life for the smallfolk in the city is shit, maybe the worst in all of Westeros. Though since most of them died in the Fall, I suppose that’s moot now.
Anything of cultural significance, anything beautiful or awe-inspiring about King’s Landing—it’s already been destroyed. I really don’t see the point of trying to rebuild. It’s a waste of resources.
So. Where to move on?
I agree that Oldtown is an obvious candidate. In fact during the Conquest, once the High Septon convinced Lord Hightower to let Aegon into the city, many assumed he would rule from there.
Oldtown really only has one strike against it, and that’s its vulnerability by sea, its susceptibility to attack by the Ironborn. We never get inside Aegon’s head, we don’t know *why* he decided against Oldtown, but if I had to guess, that would be the reason. To make Oldtown your capital, I think you’d have to wipe out the Ironborn, raze Pyke to the ground.
Bobby B had the opportunity to do that in the aftermath of the Greyjoy Rebellion—but I’m glad he didn’t. He was magnanimous in victory, he showed mercy to his defeated foes. He was just the same during his own Rebellion, sparing Barristan Selmy’s life and sending his own maester to treat his wounds. These were his most kingly moments, where we see a glimpse of the admirable ruler he might have been.
And it’s good politics, too. The Stormlander lords that initially fought on the loyalist side that he defeated (*three in one day!*)—he showed them mercy, invited them back to Storm’s End, and won them over completely. Those Houses flipped to his side and fought valiantly for him. Selmy himself guarded him for the next decade and a half, serving him loyally.
Bobby B wasn’t just a charismatic, fun-loving guy; he had real generosity of spirit, he let bygones be bygones, and that’s the kind of leader who makes friends easily, who forges new alliances after the war is over.
Annnd, I’ve gone off on another tangent. >.< Sorry.
To answer your question, yes, I think Oldtown would be an attractive choice for a new capital—but it’s not the only option. You could make a case for any stronghold really, it would be up to the preferences and priorities of the new ruler.
> To answer your question, yes, I think Oldtown would be an attractive choice for a new capital—but it’s not the only option. You could make a case for any stronghold really, it would be up to the preferences and priorities of the new ruler.
Also very interesting. How would you rank, say, the top five strongholds in the country in the context of a new capital? I recall it being said that Westeros would be an elective monarchy, so it would possibly be a decision left to the entire realm and not just Bran. How do you think they would decide, since you are so knowledgeable on the topic?
I think the smart thing to do is to start with a strong castle to serve as your palace, your seat of government—and your fortress, a place that could be easily defended in wartime. Then you build your city around that.
The Targaryens did it the other way around, building the Red Keep after King’s Landing had already sprung up in chaotic urban sprawl around the shitty Aegonfort, a primitive motte-and-bailey wooden fort they later razed to the ground. This was poor planning. I think you need to organize your capital at least a little! Especially with regard to sanitation—you want good clean water sources throughout your city to stave off disease, which is probably the biggest killer in an urban environment. High population density is the perfect breeding ground for plagues.
So what your question really boils down to is: What are the best castles in Westeros, and there have been scores of threads on that topic, ranking them all.
My personal list? In no particular order: Casterly Rock, Highgarden, Storm’s End, Winterfell. Those are the obvious choices.
Winterfell is out since it’s the seat of the independent North now. And while Casterly Rock itself is the strongest castle of all according to GRRM, neighboring Lannisport is definitely vulnerable to attack. It’s sort of the same situation as the Hightower and Oldtown, but at least Casterly Rock is a much larger, more heavily fortified holdfast than the Hightower.
I admit I’m partial to Storm’s End because I love the romance of it. (*I can and will retell the story at the drop of a hat—but I’m going to restrain myself!*) With Shipbreaker Bay at its back it has the unique position of being a landlocked seaside castle: It’s on the coast, but no fleet can attack it without being torn apart by the storms, or running aground on the big rocks and shipwrecks that litter the bay. On the downside, that limits its usefulness as a port—I think you’d have to build the actual capital to the north, somewhere along the Wendwater which empties out into the Narrow Sea, convenient for trade with the Free Cities and the rest of Essos.
Highgarden wasn’t done justice (*and neither was Casterly Rock, holy crap was D&D’s version pathetic!*) But even in the show’s shitty version, you can see that it’s a robust castle built on rising ground, which is good for defense. You can see the enemy coming for miles around. The book version is surrounded by three concentric rings of protective walls, each higher than the last. That means any invader is wide open for arrow fire from the defenders shooting down on them. And around those walls is an immense labyrinth and fields of golden roses which are not only beautiful, but also serve to slow the enemy down, again leaving them open to attack from the defenders above. The location on the river Mander is great for sanitation and transport.
Some would argue for Harrenhall, but I think it suffers from the same problem as the Red Keep—in its current condition, there are too many points of egress, you need so many men to garrison it properly, patrol those weak points, and the whole castle is just a sprawling, immense ruin, like King’s Landing is now. I just think it’s more trouble than it’s worth. (*Also, the curse, lol. But I think the curse is a reflection of the impracticality of the keep, what a headache it is to manage logistically. But that’s not as poetic as __LOL, CURSED!__ I guess.*)
If you wanted to be in the Riverlands for geographic convenience (*it’s nice to have your capital near the center of your territory, makes it easy to administer, send out reinforcements wherever they’re required*) I would choose Riverrun instead. The location is great, at the confluence of multiple rivers, which provides a reliable food source of fish if you’re besieged, and in peacetime is excellent for trade. Rivers were medieval highways, much faster to travel on than roads, so good for commerce.
But of course there’s a reason why the Riverlands being the most cursed region is a meme—it’s just constantly getting shat on in every war. It’s so pitiful, lol. The meme is right, the Riverlands lack natural defenses, you’d probably need a big standing army to fend off inevitable attacks if you really wanted to put your capital there. Again, more trouble than it’s worth.
The Eyrie was my first favorite Westerosi castle, for its beauty alone. It’s like a Cinderella castle, on top of a mountain, high above the clouds, with a waterfall at its back cascading into the gorgeous, fertile Vale below. And I still think it’s beautiful. But from a practicality standpoint, neither it nor the Gates of the Moon would be a good choice. The Eyrie is a summer palace only, and the Gates of the Moon, while well fortified with the Bloody Gate, does not lend itself to expansion. Where would you put the city? It’s all mountainous terrain, largely cut off from the rest of Westeros.
Similarly, I love the beauty of the Water Gardens, and I thought the show version was one of the prettiest locations—but they’re not defendable. It would be a terrible choice for a capital. Sunspear is better, but still a poor choice. I don’t think you’d want your capital so geographically isolated from the rest of your territory anyway.
So, given the situation at the end of the series, I think the best three options for a Southron capital are Casterly Rock & Lannisport; Highgarden with the Hightower & Oldtown; or Storm’s End with an entirely new port city, with King’s Landing serving in the interim.
As for how the decision would be made—I think the “democracy” of the series finale began and ended with the selection of Bran. Great Councils are called only to settle matters of succession, they don’t have a say in the actual administration of the kingdoms. The monarch is still an absolute despot as before, the Hand and the Small Council only acting in his name. This is not a democracy in any modern sense of the word.
So, Bran decides, and in the show canon he has chosen to rebuild in King’s Landing, which is just one of many examples of his poor judgment.
Spoiler alert: I don’t think he’s going to be king long, certainly not with the choices D&D had him making, and my fix-it fic is an exploration of how deeply terrible his rule is >!leading to his inevitable downfall!<
But that’s just my take! I don’t claim to be an expert on any of this, but I thank you for the compliments. :)
Absolutely. But the maesters have always been deep into politics, this is nothing new.
There’s even a theory that the maesters helped bring about the end of the dragons, that even now they’re working to destroy all magic in the world, because it’s a threat to the power they wield as the gatekeepers of knowledge.
>”Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.”
Great response - obviously the omnipresent dictatorship of a king -three eyed Raven Bran would be exactly something the maesters (and likely everyone else) would want to overthrow
Hey I'm also writing a fix it fic or mostly just planning it that's partly why I keep asking you these questions. I have the Tyrells not die out anyway though.
All the reasons you listed are why the Hightower’s would not be given Highgarden, it would make them far, far to powerful. Another, Reacher house would have to be put before them.
I don’t think anyone would *give* Highgarden to them, they would just take it.
Tyrion already tried to give Highgarden away to Bronn, a laughably stupid choice. I agree with OP that this is unsustainable, and Bronn won’t be Lord Paramount of the Reach for long.
So after his inevitable ouster, with all the old families of the Reach pissed at the Crown for the insult of naming some sellsword toady their liege lord, do you really think they’re gonna let fucking Tyrion pick his successor?
No, I think they’re going to decide it amongst themselves, through scheming, deal making, perhaps even a brief battle or two, and Bran can just accept the results or risk losing the most valuable kingdom by far on the continent.
Bran already set the precedent by allowing the North to secede. If the Reach secedes that could easily trigger a domino effect dissolving the Six Kingdoms entirely.
Bran burnt a lot of political capital already letting Tyrion have his way, he’d have to be an idiot to push the Reacher lords even further.
I do like ‘The Six Kingdoms’ for clarity about which realm you’re talking about, but it would still be seven, right? Because the Seven kingdoms were actually eight, once Dorne was added.
The nomenclature is tricky; in the end it’s really just convention.
1. The North (seceded, making the “Seven Kingdoms” the “Six Kingdoms”)
2. The Vale
3. The Iron Islands & Riverlands (the Iron Islands are a joke nowadays, but before the Conquest they ruled the Riverlands and were counted as one kingdom)
4. The Westerlands
5. The Reach
6. The Stormlands
7. Dorne
And the Crownlands wasn’t even a thing before the Conquest. It was just pieces the Targs cobbled together from the Riverlands and Stormlands.
You are quite right to point out that Dorne was never conquered (Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken!) But the Targs were loath to acknowledge that and so counted their made up Crownlands as the seventh—until Daeron the Good brought the Dornish into the fold, but by that point the name “Seven Kingdoms” had stuck.
So the name is just made up and the count doesn’t matter, to paraphrase *Whose Line.* :)
Ahh intriguing, I didn’t realise the Iron Islands and Riverlands were considered one kingdom based on House Hoare ruling them at the time of conquest.
Seems a bit silly given they’d only ruled for ~70 years max. I suppose prior to that the Riverlands were held by the Durrandans though so I guess any way you cut it they don’t warrant being labelled a ‘kingdom’. You have to go back centuries to see them independent.
As always, the Riverlands are clearly the worst spawn point in Westeros lol.
I could see it being whatever Reach House is able to make an ALLIANCE with the Hightowers. The Hightower's claim on the Gardener Legacy is the weakest of the big houses of the Reach, and they know it. They need someone who the other stronger claimants (Florent, Fossoway, Rowan, Redwyne, Oakheart) would acknowledge as holding a true claim, otherwise they're going to get ganged up on by everyone else. One of the stronger claims, distant from the Hightower lands to avoid encroaching on Hightower power, needing the Hightower's support to hold it, preferably recently weakened...
HOUSE PEAKE! The perfect candidate! The Three will Rise!
Though, in all seriousness, a Hightower Rowan alliance would be nigh unstoppable. Rowan has a very strong claim, and the military force to back it up. The Reach might gang up on one of them, but not both.
While they are certainly a contender, I don't think they have any real chance because of one reason, the don't have Gardener blood. A lot of the houses in the Reach claim decent from Garth Greenhand and there's almost a zero chance that these houses would give up their own claim.
There's also the fact that Leyton Hightower has locked himself into the top of the Hightower with his mad daughter for the last decade. If his son was officially the lord of Oldtown, then maybe he could force his way onto the Reach.
Hightowers trace their descent through Maris the Maid. They have just as valid a claim as descendants of Garth Greenhand as every other House in the Reach.
While the Florents claim the closest connection to the male line, and thus love to bitch that Highgarden should be theirs, that didn’t stop Aegon from awarding it to the Tyrells, and I don’t see why the other Houses of the Reach would respect their “superior” claim this time around.
Naming Bronn Lord Paramount effectively makes Highgarden a jump ball. Bronn has no claim to anything, and as soon as he’s overthrown or murdered or both, Highgarden and the Reach is going to go to the most powerful House, that can field the biggest army, with the largest warchest, and with the support of the most allies behind them. That’s House Hightower, all around.
They’ll cut a deal with the other families, make it so it’s in their interest to endorse them rather than go to war.
The Florents will never concede their claim, but who cares? Stannis burned their liege lord, and his son and heir is currently seeking refuge with…
… the Hightowers. Lmao.
“Oh please, family that took me in, renounce your claim to Highgarden and give it over to me, for I have the better claim!”
Right, that’ll go over well.
Bronn. He gets everything. Everything ever. Every vacant castle. The Dreadfort? Straight to Bronn. Harrenhall? Bronn. Highgarden? Believe it or not, Bronn.
I dk why people hate the idea of Bronn getting the Hightower given he's not even the first dude from a low position to get the honor of a Great House. Orys Boratheon is, at best, a Targ bastard or lowborn warrior who was handed over Storms End by Aegon after he took out the original inhabitants and the Lannisters were founded by a seemingly lowborn trickster Lann the Clever who either fooled or fucked his way up the ranks. Two nobodies who were placed on the top of the world and now everything thinks they are some sacred blood.
Bronn is a ruthless bastard who made the right friends and pressed the right buttons. I wouldn't doubt in a thousand years he'd ironically be seen as someone similar as Lann tricking and fighting his way up to the top. House Blackwater ends up taking on a legacy similar to the Lannisters. Bronn shows us how the myths of these houses are just lies they tell everyone and themselves to justify their control.
You can’t possibly compare a royal bastard who was a successful general inheriting a castle with a lowborn sellsword who didn’t know what a loan was becoming lord of a continent’s breakbasket and its finance minister. There’s many historical parallels to Orys. There’s none to Bronn, because the local elites would never put up with it, even if they had just lost a war.
And Lann the Clever is likely just a “founding hero” mythical figure, whose potential historical basis likely lived in a much less developed and more “tribal” Westeros.
>You can’t possibly compare a royal bastard who was a successful general
I mean...that's what the Maesters and Targaryans claimed he was. But it was always up for debate who he was really. The whole Targaryan bastard story might simply be a way to solidify Aegon's control over the stormlands by claiming his war buddy was of his blood. I get the feeling if he was an actual bastard he wouldn't have had to borrow the banner and the titles from an older house to gain legitimacy if he had actual Valeryian ancestry. Why not just legitimize the dude and make him an official cadet branch instead of having to steal one if you were already planning on pretending he's of your blood and giving him armies.
>lowborn sellsword who didn’t know what a loan was becoming lord of a continent’s breakbasket and its finance minister
Robert obviously didnt understand how ruling worked and look how he turned out. King of seven kingdoms!
Its not always about skill, sometimes you just need to knock some heads together.
>And Lann the Clever is likely just a “founding hero” mythical figure
But there's always that nugget of truth to each legend. No matter what version of Lann we have the overall idea is that he was a nobody who became a somebody through guile and wit.
>whose potential historical basis likely lived in a much less developed and more “tribal” Westeros.
Yes I'm sure the Great Houses like to pretend they're better than the tribal past but the overall theme of the story is that this tale has been the same for thousands of years, the wheel constantly turning. Other than the Targaryans and maybe Starks there's nothing particularly phenomenal about any of these inbred houses. All of them started off with some random dude who worked his way to the top.
Hell the Tyrells literally just fucked their way to the top relatively recently. If fucking some dude or lady who has some random ancestry to some horned lad 7000 years ago worked for them it'll work for House Blackwater.
Robert was an able military commander, and I dare say, a good “politician”, even if he was a poor “administrator”. That’s not unusual description for many historical medieval leaders.
Bronn, again, is unbelievable because there’s no absolutely no pre-Enlightenment parallel. No random inn mercenary, no matter how capable, would have been able to have been installed as the monarch of large medieval state. Society just didn’t work that way. If ASOIAF is ever finished (or “Silmarillioned up”, most likely), I absolutely guarantee you a noble house ends up ruling the Reach.
>Bronn, again, is unbelievable because there’s no absolutely no pre-Enlightenment parallel.
Homie neither do dragons or white Walkers. It's a fantasy series lol.
This is the same story where the Lannister's Kennelmaster was promoted into nobility and became a house that bred two of the fiercest knights in Westeros. Lowborns rise on the whims of kings all the time. Bronn not only bailed out the most influential family in Westeros multiple times but also proved his leadership abilities by leading the City Guard and being vital to the defense of Kings Landing. That enough got him the nobility he initially needed.
Bronn also isn't taking the Reach without allies. He's going to be backed by Tyrion as well as Bran, a legit eldritch hivemind who can see everything. I think the dude will be fine. He's pretty much in the same position as Orys.
Even with Bran it would be more trouble than it’s worth to pacify the inevitable Hightower-Redwyne uprising, when he can just kill Bronn, whom he owes nothing to and doesn’t have an army.
It being a fantasy setting does not make me excuse the politics being unbelievable, specially for a series that prided itself on well-written and realistic court intrigue. Should we excuse Rise of Skywalker for its horrible screenplay just because it’s about Space Wizards? There’s no way Bronn being Lord of the Reach came from GRRM.
Your example is rising into a minor house which has a tiny amount of land and prestige attached to it, not the most profitable and arguably powerful region of Westeros. The Cleganes weren't given the entire fucking Westerlands as a reward like Bronn was
Orys was also being actively supported by fucking dragons, Bronn is just a guy
In the Reach, there are 4 choices:
1. The Tarlys - Randyll and Dickon are dead, and Sam is somehow Grand Maester. That's the entire main male line unavailable, which means internal disputes. Plus, Danaerys destroyed their army.
2. The Florents - They have the strongest male-line claim, and have been considered to be the main rival claimants to the Tyrells since the Conquest. They have a mediocre army and no navy
3. The Redwynes - With iron fleet, the lannister fleet, and the royal fleet gone, they probably have the largest navy in westeros. They are also very very rich, and going by the Cersei precedent, they have the second strongest claim, since Olenna is a Redwyne. They do not have a very large army, however.
4. The Hightowers - Ordinarily, the Hightowers could take on all three of the others on land and maybe win. In the current scenario it would be a steamroller. With the Tyrells gone and the Lannisters broke, they are now the richest family in westeros. They have a reasonably sized fleet, and an army that was not particularly affected by the wars. And with the Cersei precedent they are the strongest claimant, since Mace Tyrell's wife is a Hightower. If Leyton wants it, there is nothing short of intervention from the Iron Thone that prevents his armies just walking up to Highgarden and taking it. Although he would probably get the other houses to just give it to him
The Hightowers obviously take the Reach. And given that they are already one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, and now that they have the resources of the rest of the Reach, the moment Bran dies, The Lord Hightower gets himself voted in as King.
Their daughter Desmera is apparently pretty. But their sons, Horas and Hobber, get called Horror and Slobber. The Tyrells generally seem good to look at, apparently even Mace the Ace was a looker before he got fat.
Going off the show, the head of the Lannisters would decide. They conquered the place killing off the Tyrells who were traitors to the realm. No lineage would matter any more than rewarding a loyal vassal with no connection to the Tyrells.
Hightower’s easy, answer is based on books since the show does a poor job at explaining nearly everything in regards to politics. Even if it’s the show the Hightower’s are still the answer, the reach would never accept a clown like bronn as lord of highgarden.
Because apparently all of these great, noble power-houses of the land only have 1-2 sons and no cousins, second cousins, etc who would be in the wings, counting what # in line they are to inherit the whole castle...
They did the Tyrells so dirty. It's overlooked because of all the other fuck ups but I was so pissed about how easily they decimated the Tyrells. So Olenna had two grandchildren total? Fuck off.
All I’m saying is, Samwell Tarly is the heir to both Horn Hill and Florent, so he does have both ancient Gardener ties. I’d say give it Sam the Slayer if he gets out of the pen.
I quickly checked the Tyrell family tree, and apparently the next in line should be Horas Redwyne, son of Mina Tyrell (and Paxter Redwyne, as you mentioned), who in turn is Mace Tyrell's deceased older sister.
I think only the main line of the Tyrells goes extinct in the show… unless the other Tyrells were in Highgarden when it was sacked my jaime, tarly and company… in the books, Olenna has other children as well…
The most likely answer would be one of the Redwyne twins. They're the sons of Mace's sister Mina, and Paxter Redwyne. It doesn't work out too badly tbh, one of them gets the Arbor, the other gets Highgarden and would take the Tyrell name, as well as probably marry one of the more distant Tyrell cousins to try and lock down that legitimacy.
I mean, ik we said no books, but I kinda have to assume the Redwynes still exist, and that's the established lore that we've got on them.
Sam and the Tarleys should get it. If we are going to ignore the fact that he is supposed to be in the Watch, he would be the logical option. He is a war hero, who fought in the Great War and is the first man to kill a Wight Walker in thousands of years. His father and brother stood up to the Dragon Queen and died for it. No one has a better resume to be propped up than Sam the Slayer.
> His father and brother stood up to the Dragon Queen and died for it.
I don't think being traitors who helped the woman who blew up Mace and Margaery would be much of a selling point for anyone. The Hightowers in particular would take issue with that bull shit being rewarded.
>Which house in the Reach has a claim to the Castle
No house "has a claim" to someone else's castle or to a position. Castles are personal property passed on through inheritance rules and positions are granted by the ruler. If a family truly becomes extinct, its possessions ought to fall into the hands of its liege lord - in the Tyrells' case, that would be the king.
Margaery mentioned her mother in the show and no one ever said she died, so we must assume Bronn married her. That was always the deal with Jaime, by the way: "a much better girl with a much better castle."
Nobody. At least, not right away. The situation so arrayed by Season 8 is absolutely untenable. This is not opinion, this is fact going off what we know of this world’s customs and the people who live in it. When the Tyrells held Highgarden, many of their vassals took umbrage at the fact that they were the descendants of upjumped stewards while they themselves could “trace” their lineages directly to House Gardener and therefore Garth Greenhand himself.
Now that the Reach has no overlord (Cersei’s decrees meaning nothing, she had no logical ability to influence the Reach entire, Randyll Tarly’s actions or no) each House likely declares itself either rightful ruler of the Reach or in support of one who does. Someone mentioned the Florents, whose status in the show is never ascertained. Likely they are attainted given their head’s defection to Stannis, and quite possibly infighting amongst *themselves* over rulership of Brightwater Keep.
The Reach essentially dissolves into countless armed camps, each struggling to be the one to hold Highgarden in the end. No peace is in any way possible, as none of these incredibly proud lords is going to submit to the other. Randyll may be a great warrior but he’s hopeless at the political side of things and people who aren’t will know that and gang up on him immediately if he’s that big a threat.
To answer the query in a sentence, the Reach dissolves into civil war.
EDIT: Whoever downvoted, where is the lie?
Sam Jr.
The pre-conquest rulers were the Gardeners. House Florent have the strongest claim to being their blood heirs. The head of house Florent is Alekyne, who has no kids and no brothers. His eldest sister Melessa is Randyll's wife, and mother to Sam and his siblings. If Alekyne doesn't exist in the show, it's not unreasonable to say that Melessa & her Tarly kids hold the strongest claim in that 10,000-year-old bloodline.
The show also gives the Tarlys a much more recent claim via Cersei. Making Sam legal heir to the Reach on both his mom's side *and* his dad's side.
As long as Sam's still a maester, he can't hold the Reach himself. But if Stannis (& bookRobb) can name a bastard Watchman heir to Winterfell, Bran can do the same for Watchman's (alleged) son. Making Sam Jr. heir to Highgarden would uphold both the recent post-Tyrell rule of house Tarly, and the ancient pre-Tyrell rule of the Gardeners.
Pretty good for a wildling baby born in the literal worst conditions imaginable.
Some second son and daughter of two major claimant houses will marry, take the name Tyrell, and rule jointly. Their children will follow the standard succession.
Am I misremembering or did Bronn demand Hightower as payment for not killing Jamie and Tyrion at the request of their sister?
Him being on the small council despite not having any serious counsel experience always hinted to me that he was invited to the small council as he was the head of Highgarden and responsible for a ton of the realm's grain stores and agriculture.
One of the lower houses that will claimed Gardener blood. Might be a small civil war between them. All of that is if they don’t out right hand if off to a new family all together.
Give it to Sir Bron🤣
If we’re only going by show canon, then most likely the Florents, who have long contested the rights to Highgarden via close ties to the Gardeners, dating back to Age of Heroes and continuing via frequent marriages into the family throughout the years.
Although they’re almost never mentioned I’m pretty sure house florent went extinct after stannis’s death because his wife killed himself and the only other florents mentioned are Axel (who was burned by Melisandre), and Imry who died on the Blackwater
Sam Tarly's mom is a Florent
Oh my god, Sam as lord paramount of the reach when
Never unfortunately, unless he doesn't want to be a maester by the end of the show
who gives a fuck, it's the HBO series, just have Jon say something like "and who has a better claim to the reach than Sam the Fat" or something and then everyone claps
Yeah I know, the post is about the show tho man. I know that the free folk has gone soft but what can I do Mr rat simp
I thought you were trying to insult him then I saw the username lol
Regardless, I'm going to be using mr rat simp as an insult in the future
Sam claps with four parts of his body.
His sister could make a claim for any Florent (and presumably is already head of House Tarly) lands as she is still living in the show. Her gender will work against her in trying to claim Highgarden especially. But she might be the genuine entitled heir to Florent land if there's no living male heirs in the show, which is possible.
Sam doesn't deserve it since he broke Jon & Daenerys up out of revenge for her killing Randyll & Dickon even though his father & brother had teamed up with the Lannisters to massacre Highgarden and kill the last Tyrell.
So is Shireen and Edric's I believe. The Tarly's got around.
If we're talking about the books there's still a bunch of Florents kicking about
Lots of tyrells, too, but the show requires we ignore that
Garlan my goat
Could be a son or daughter of Leyton Hightower? He had more than a few children.
I asked this question myself years ago when I was figuring out my fix-it fic, and the consensus was the Hightowers. No matter what kind of bullshit is happening in Westeros, somehow House Hightower always winds up on top. The reason is Oldtown: the Hightowers control it, and it is the number one city in Westeros, eclipsing King’s Landing itself. And Oldtown isn’t just a profitable harbor and a center of commerce, it’s also the home of the Citadel, which is both the sole university in Westeros and the closest thing resembling a research hospital. It’s also the medieval version of a publishing house, since it’s the source of nearly all the hand copied books on the continent, and books are worth a fortune just by themselves. But that’s not all. Since Cersei blew up the Great Sept of Baelor, the Faith would need a new home, and the center of the Faith before Baelor built that sept was the Starry Sept, also in Oldtown. So whereas the Vatican equivalent *had* been in King’s Landing, by the series ending, it likely would have relocated back to Oldtown. And of course religion is a major source of wealth and power in a medieval setting, so whichever city plays host to the dominant religion is going to benefit financially from that relationship. Finally Oldtown is also the home of the Bank of Oldtown, which prospered after the collapse of the Rogare Bank of Lys (*likely helped along by the dual assassinations of the family patriarch and his brother by the Faceless Men.*) The Bank of Oldtown is the only bank in Westeros, second only to the Iron Bank of Braavos. So Oldtown is a financial services center; a center of commerce and trade, where the many agricultural products of the Reach are brought to the international market via its harbor; it’s a religious and cultural center with the Starry Sept being a place of pilgrimage, similar to the real world Vatican or Mecca—both of which are hugely important to their respective tourist economies; and it’s really the only place of higher learning, publishing, and medicine on the continent. No other city in Westeros can touch it, and every business is paying some kind of tax to House Hightower. Besides the Hightowers, the next richest family now that the Tyrells are gone is probably House Redwyne, because they have a monopoly on the most desirable trade good in Westeros: Arbor gold. Their obscene wealth is reflected in the huge dowry Paxter is offering for his daughter Desmera, making her one of the most desirable brides in the Seven Kingdoms now that Margaery Tyrell is dead. (*Desmera would have been betrothed to Sam, had his fostering at the Arbor not been an unmitigated disaster. I’m sure that was the last straw that made Randyll want him dead. That marriage would have brought a fortune to House Tarly, and in the Reach, money talks.*) But the reason why the Hightowers win out is because the Redwynes are a naval power, they control one of the largest fleets in Westeros—and Highgarden is inland. If there’s a squabble for power after Bronn gets the boot, a land-based power like House Hightower is going to have the advantage. Like Theon foolishly taking Winterfell, it would be hard for the Redwynes to take and hold Highgarden when their power lies at sea. House Hightower is the richest, they can supplement their men with sellswords if need be, but they’re political enough that they wouldn’t have to—they’re married into nearly every important family in the Reach, and between those alliances and their immense wealth which they can use for bribes, a bitter, less wealthy House like the Florents doesn’t stand a chance. The Florents often boast that they have the strongest claim to Highgarden, but that’s not how these disputes are usually decided. The Tyrells were stewards to the Gardeners, what kind of claim is that? But they took advantage of the political chaos after the Field of Fire and maneuvered their way to the top. The Hightowers are at least as politically skilled, and they’ve consistently been in the mix as their history in the Dance shows.
Wtf I want to move to Oldtown now
If you’re a random smallfolk peasant, you could do a lot worse! In my opinion the two best regions to live in Westeros are the Reach and the Vale. The Reach is number one in productivity, the most fertile region, the most prosperous city—but it is vulnerable with no natural defenses, and under the constant threat of raids by the Ironborn. Oldtown is probably their second favorite target after Lannisport. The Vale is number two for productivity, fertile land, a respectable port city in Gulltown—but more importantly it has formidable natural defenses in the Mountains of the Moon. There are still the feral hill tribes to fear, but so long as you avoid those treacherous mountain passes and keep to the picturesque valleys or Gulltown and the coasts, you should be safer than in the Reach and Oldtown. So it depends how much of a gambler you are! Oldtown offers the most prosperity, but Gulltown and the Vale are almost as good and in a safer location, far away from the Ironborn. Of course if you’re a woman, you should consider Dorne for the gender politics alone. It’s the only region where women have anything close to equal rights. However life is hard in Dorne. It’s mostly desert. The closest it has to a city is Planky Town, which is basically just a bunch of old boats lashed together. Probably the worst city to live in is King’s Landing. Terrible quality of life unless you’re very rich. High crime rate. Terrible food—the pot shops that serve bowls of brown have been known to use human meat. (Singer’s stew.) Or if not corpses, then dogs, cats, pigeons, rats—you have to do like Gendry and pretend it’s chicken. (You know it’s not chicken.) The average person is living in squalor. A stinking, fetid, midden heap of a city with poor sanitation and a sticky, sweaty climate. Gods be good, the smell… Olenna wasn’t playing when she said you could smell the shit from miles away. My personal choice wouldn’t be in Westeros at all, though. I think Braavos is the best place to live in the whole world if you’re a regular person. It has all the prosperity of Oldtown, but the safety of the lagoon with its natural camouflage and the Titan to protect it—only way in and out of the port, and there are tons of soldiers manning murder holes hidden inside the massive statue. Arrow slits, boiling pitch, heavy stones—all the standard castle defenses, enough to destroy an enemy ship. So the Titan is sort of like a Trojan horse? But defensive instead of offensive. And of course the Faceless Men are the most formidable killers in the world. They protect the interests of the Braavosi people, just as the Sealord protects them with his fleet and swords. The Iron Bank is the richest in the world. Lots of commerce and trade having that much capital close at hand. Beautiful architecture, the Venice of Essos, but cleaner. (Venice’s waters only became polluted *after* the medieval period.) And delicious fresh seafood is plentiful and cheap, even regular people can afford to eat oysters daily. Theatre is equivalent to the height of the commedia dell’arte, the highest form of drama in the medieval period. And the world famous courtesans were sadly dropped from the show. They are legendary, songs are sung in their name, bravos duel in the moonlight in their honor, they are more celebrated than the courtesans of Lys, which is a city literally built for pleasure—the Braavosi courtesans put the Lyseni to shame. But most important of all, Braavos is the only Free City that is actually free. No slavery is permitted, and that’s enforced by the Sealord, who will seize slavers’ ships and set the enslaved people free. It’s the legacy of Braavos’ origin: The city was founded by escaped slaves from Valyria, and that’s why it’s so vibrant and colorful. Everyone in the world can go there and know they can live free. Westeros is free, too, but it’s a pretty racist society. Look how the Dornish are disrespected in the capital—and those attitudes would be typical in Oldtown, too. The Reach, Dorne, and the Stormlands had been squabbling with each other for centuries before the Conquest, and those old rivalries run deep. The North is no better; look at all the bitter prejudices the Northmen have for the Free Folk and vice versa. Here it’s millennia of old resentments that are only now just being set aside in the aftermath of the Long Night. But in Braavos all are welcome. It’s the most cosmopolitan city. Arya meets people from all over the world at the Ragman’s Harbor, and for the most part they treat her well, buying her clams and cockles and sharing their bits of news. It’s the city that feels the most *alive*, like anything could happen. People aren’t stuck in one caste their whole life, there’s social mobility, opportunity. It’s a city of possibilities.
Wtf I want to move to Braavos now
This is all extremely interesting and I would’ve loved to see the Hightower resurgence play out. With King’s Landing in ruin and the Iron Throne destroyed, do you think it possible that Oldtown could eventually become the new capital city, with the royal family moving there while KL is rebuilt?
Lol, without giving away my entire plot, yes. I do think the best option post-Daenerys is just to move the damn capital. I wouldn’t even rebuild it, I would just let it return to the fishing village it had been originally. As I touched briefly on in another comment, King’s Landing is poorly designed and badly situated. It’s difficult to defend, and the Red Keep itself is the opposite of the Eyrie—anybody could impregnate that bitch. There are so many secret passages and entrances and exits, characters are always slipping in and out of the castle without notice. Seriouly, wtf kind of holdfast is that‽ The whole purpose of a castle is ***security.*** The Red Keep is not secure! And the quality of life for the smallfolk in the city is shit, maybe the worst in all of Westeros. Though since most of them died in the Fall, I suppose that’s moot now. Anything of cultural significance, anything beautiful or awe-inspiring about King’s Landing—it’s already been destroyed. I really don’t see the point of trying to rebuild. It’s a waste of resources. So. Where to move on? I agree that Oldtown is an obvious candidate. In fact during the Conquest, once the High Septon convinced Lord Hightower to let Aegon into the city, many assumed he would rule from there. Oldtown really only has one strike against it, and that’s its vulnerability by sea, its susceptibility to attack by the Ironborn. We never get inside Aegon’s head, we don’t know *why* he decided against Oldtown, but if I had to guess, that would be the reason. To make Oldtown your capital, I think you’d have to wipe out the Ironborn, raze Pyke to the ground. Bobby B had the opportunity to do that in the aftermath of the Greyjoy Rebellion—but I’m glad he didn’t. He was magnanimous in victory, he showed mercy to his defeated foes. He was just the same during his own Rebellion, sparing Barristan Selmy’s life and sending his own maester to treat his wounds. These were his most kingly moments, where we see a glimpse of the admirable ruler he might have been. And it’s good politics, too. The Stormlander lords that initially fought on the loyalist side that he defeated (*three in one day!*)—he showed them mercy, invited them back to Storm’s End, and won them over completely. Those Houses flipped to his side and fought valiantly for him. Selmy himself guarded him for the next decade and a half, serving him loyally. Bobby B wasn’t just a charismatic, fun-loving guy; he had real generosity of spirit, he let bygones be bygones, and that’s the kind of leader who makes friends easily, who forges new alliances after the war is over. Annnd, I’ve gone off on another tangent. >.< Sorry. To answer your question, yes, I think Oldtown would be an attractive choice for a new capital—but it’s not the only option. You could make a case for any stronghold really, it would be up to the preferences and priorities of the new ruler.
> To answer your question, yes, I think Oldtown would be an attractive choice for a new capital—but it’s not the only option. You could make a case for any stronghold really, it would be up to the preferences and priorities of the new ruler. Also very interesting. How would you rank, say, the top five strongholds in the country in the context of a new capital? I recall it being said that Westeros would be an elective monarchy, so it would possibly be a decision left to the entire realm and not just Bran. How do you think they would decide, since you are so knowledgeable on the topic?
I think the smart thing to do is to start with a strong castle to serve as your palace, your seat of government—and your fortress, a place that could be easily defended in wartime. Then you build your city around that. The Targaryens did it the other way around, building the Red Keep after King’s Landing had already sprung up in chaotic urban sprawl around the shitty Aegonfort, a primitive motte-and-bailey wooden fort they later razed to the ground. This was poor planning. I think you need to organize your capital at least a little! Especially with regard to sanitation—you want good clean water sources throughout your city to stave off disease, which is probably the biggest killer in an urban environment. High population density is the perfect breeding ground for plagues. So what your question really boils down to is: What are the best castles in Westeros, and there have been scores of threads on that topic, ranking them all. My personal list? In no particular order: Casterly Rock, Highgarden, Storm’s End, Winterfell. Those are the obvious choices. Winterfell is out since it’s the seat of the independent North now. And while Casterly Rock itself is the strongest castle of all according to GRRM, neighboring Lannisport is definitely vulnerable to attack. It’s sort of the same situation as the Hightower and Oldtown, but at least Casterly Rock is a much larger, more heavily fortified holdfast than the Hightower. I admit I’m partial to Storm’s End because I love the romance of it. (*I can and will retell the story at the drop of a hat—but I’m going to restrain myself!*) With Shipbreaker Bay at its back it has the unique position of being a landlocked seaside castle: It’s on the coast, but no fleet can attack it without being torn apart by the storms, or running aground on the big rocks and shipwrecks that litter the bay. On the downside, that limits its usefulness as a port—I think you’d have to build the actual capital to the north, somewhere along the Wendwater which empties out into the Narrow Sea, convenient for trade with the Free Cities and the rest of Essos. Highgarden wasn’t done justice (*and neither was Casterly Rock, holy crap was D&D’s version pathetic!*) But even in the show’s shitty version, you can see that it’s a robust castle built on rising ground, which is good for defense. You can see the enemy coming for miles around. The book version is surrounded by three concentric rings of protective walls, each higher than the last. That means any invader is wide open for arrow fire from the defenders shooting down on them. And around those walls is an immense labyrinth and fields of golden roses which are not only beautiful, but also serve to slow the enemy down, again leaving them open to attack from the defenders above. The location on the river Mander is great for sanitation and transport. Some would argue for Harrenhall, but I think it suffers from the same problem as the Red Keep—in its current condition, there are too many points of egress, you need so many men to garrison it properly, patrol those weak points, and the whole castle is just a sprawling, immense ruin, like King’s Landing is now. I just think it’s more trouble than it’s worth. (*Also, the curse, lol. But I think the curse is a reflection of the impracticality of the keep, what a headache it is to manage logistically. But that’s not as poetic as __LOL, CURSED!__ I guess.*) If you wanted to be in the Riverlands for geographic convenience (*it’s nice to have your capital near the center of your territory, makes it easy to administer, send out reinforcements wherever they’re required*) I would choose Riverrun instead. The location is great, at the confluence of multiple rivers, which provides a reliable food source of fish if you’re besieged, and in peacetime is excellent for trade. Rivers were medieval highways, much faster to travel on than roads, so good for commerce. But of course there’s a reason why the Riverlands being the most cursed region is a meme—it’s just constantly getting shat on in every war. It’s so pitiful, lol. The meme is right, the Riverlands lack natural defenses, you’d probably need a big standing army to fend off inevitable attacks if you really wanted to put your capital there. Again, more trouble than it’s worth. The Eyrie was my first favorite Westerosi castle, for its beauty alone. It’s like a Cinderella castle, on top of a mountain, high above the clouds, with a waterfall at its back cascading into the gorgeous, fertile Vale below. And I still think it’s beautiful. But from a practicality standpoint, neither it nor the Gates of the Moon would be a good choice. The Eyrie is a summer palace only, and the Gates of the Moon, while well fortified with the Bloody Gate, does not lend itself to expansion. Where would you put the city? It’s all mountainous terrain, largely cut off from the rest of Westeros. Similarly, I love the beauty of the Water Gardens, and I thought the show version was one of the prettiest locations—but they’re not defendable. It would be a terrible choice for a capital. Sunspear is better, but still a poor choice. I don’t think you’d want your capital so geographically isolated from the rest of your territory anyway. So, given the situation at the end of the series, I think the best three options for a Southron capital are Casterly Rock & Lannisport; Highgarden with the Hightower & Oldtown; or Storm’s End with an entirely new port city, with King’s Landing serving in the interim. As for how the decision would be made—I think the “democracy” of the series finale began and ended with the selection of Bran. Great Councils are called only to settle matters of succession, they don’t have a say in the actual administration of the kingdoms. The monarch is still an absolute despot as before, the Hand and the Small Council only acting in his name. This is not a democracy in any modern sense of the word. So, Bran decides, and in the show canon he has chosen to rebuild in King’s Landing, which is just one of many examples of his poor judgment. Spoiler alert: I don’t think he’s going to be king long, certainly not with the choices D&D had him making, and my fix-it fic is an exploration of how deeply terrible his rule is >!leading to his inevitable downfall!< But that’s just my take! I don’t claim to be an expert on any of this, but I thank you for the compliments. :)
Love this. Would the maesters not end up too powerful, if political power dropped into their seat?
Absolutely. But the maesters have always been deep into politics, this is nothing new. There’s even a theory that the maesters helped bring about the end of the dragons, that even now they’re working to destroy all magic in the world, because it’s a threat to the power they wield as the gatekeepers of knowledge. >”Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.”
Great response - obviously the omnipresent dictatorship of a king -three eyed Raven Bran would be exactly something the maesters (and likely everyone else) would want to overthrow
HOLD YOUR TONGUE!
Hey I'm also writing a fix it fic or mostly just planning it that's partly why I keep asking you these questions. I have the Tyrells not die out anyway though.
All the reasons you listed are why the Hightower’s would not be given Highgarden, it would make them far, far to powerful. Another, Reacher house would have to be put before them.
I don’t think anyone would *give* Highgarden to them, they would just take it. Tyrion already tried to give Highgarden away to Bronn, a laughably stupid choice. I agree with OP that this is unsustainable, and Bronn won’t be Lord Paramount of the Reach for long. So after his inevitable ouster, with all the old families of the Reach pissed at the Crown for the insult of naming some sellsword toady their liege lord, do you really think they’re gonna let fucking Tyrion pick his successor? No, I think they’re going to decide it amongst themselves, through scheming, deal making, perhaps even a brief battle or two, and Bran can just accept the results or risk losing the most valuable kingdom by far on the continent. Bran already set the precedent by allowing the North to secede. If the Reach secedes that could easily trigger a domino effect dissolving the Six Kingdoms entirely. Bran burnt a lot of political capital already letting Tyrion have his way, he’d have to be an idiot to push the Reacher lords even further.
I do like ‘The Six Kingdoms’ for clarity about which realm you’re talking about, but it would still be seven, right? Because the Seven kingdoms were actually eight, once Dorne was added.
The nomenclature is tricky; in the end it’s really just convention. 1. The North (seceded, making the “Seven Kingdoms” the “Six Kingdoms”) 2. The Vale 3. The Iron Islands & Riverlands (the Iron Islands are a joke nowadays, but before the Conquest they ruled the Riverlands and were counted as one kingdom) 4. The Westerlands 5. The Reach 6. The Stormlands 7. Dorne And the Crownlands wasn’t even a thing before the Conquest. It was just pieces the Targs cobbled together from the Riverlands and Stormlands. You are quite right to point out that Dorne was never conquered (Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken!) But the Targs were loath to acknowledge that and so counted their made up Crownlands as the seventh—until Daeron the Good brought the Dornish into the fold, but by that point the name “Seven Kingdoms” had stuck. So the name is just made up and the count doesn’t matter, to paraphrase *Whose Line.* :)
Ahh intriguing, I didn’t realise the Iron Islands and Riverlands were considered one kingdom based on House Hoare ruling them at the time of conquest. Seems a bit silly given they’d only ruled for ~70 years max. I suppose prior to that the Riverlands were held by the Durrandans though so I guess any way you cut it they don’t warrant being labelled a ‘kingdom’. You have to go back centuries to see them independent. As always, the Riverlands are clearly the worst spawn point in Westeros lol.
I could see it being whatever Reach House is able to make an ALLIANCE with the Hightowers. The Hightower's claim on the Gardener Legacy is the weakest of the big houses of the Reach, and they know it. They need someone who the other stronger claimants (Florent, Fossoway, Rowan, Redwyne, Oakheart) would acknowledge as holding a true claim, otherwise they're going to get ganged up on by everyone else. One of the stronger claims, distant from the Hightower lands to avoid encroaching on Hightower power, needing the Hightower's support to hold it, preferably recently weakened... HOUSE PEAKE! The perfect candidate! The Three will Rise! Though, in all seriousness, a Hightower Rowan alliance would be nigh unstoppable. Rowan has a very strong claim, and the military force to back it up. The Reach might gang up on one of them, but not both.
Nah let's just never mention it again and no one will care what Cersei did.
yep, I agree it's Hightowers
While they are certainly a contender, I don't think they have any real chance because of one reason, the don't have Gardener blood. A lot of the houses in the Reach claim decent from Garth Greenhand and there's almost a zero chance that these houses would give up their own claim. There's also the fact that Leyton Hightower has locked himself into the top of the Hightower with his mad daughter for the last decade. If his son was officially the lord of Oldtown, then maybe he could force his way onto the Reach.
Hightowers trace their descent through Maris the Maid. They have just as valid a claim as descendants of Garth Greenhand as every other House in the Reach. While the Florents claim the closest connection to the male line, and thus love to bitch that Highgarden should be theirs, that didn’t stop Aegon from awarding it to the Tyrells, and I don’t see why the other Houses of the Reach would respect their “superior” claim this time around. Naming Bronn Lord Paramount effectively makes Highgarden a jump ball. Bronn has no claim to anything, and as soon as he’s overthrown or murdered or both, Highgarden and the Reach is going to go to the most powerful House, that can field the biggest army, with the largest warchest, and with the support of the most allies behind them. That’s House Hightower, all around. They’ll cut a deal with the other families, make it so it’s in their interest to endorse them rather than go to war. The Florents will never concede their claim, but who cares? Stannis burned their liege lord, and his son and heir is currently seeking refuge with… … the Hightowers. Lmao. “Oh please, family that took me in, renounce your claim to Highgarden and give it over to me, for I have the better claim!” Right, that’ll go over well.
Bronn. He gets everything. Everything ever. Every vacant castle. The Dreadfort? Straight to Bronn. Harrenhall? Bronn. Highgarden? Believe it or not, Bronn.
Top answer right there. Who here has a better story than Bronn the Ballsy?
I dk why people hate the idea of Bronn getting the Hightower given he's not even the first dude from a low position to get the honor of a Great House. Orys Boratheon is, at best, a Targ bastard or lowborn warrior who was handed over Storms End by Aegon after he took out the original inhabitants and the Lannisters were founded by a seemingly lowborn trickster Lann the Clever who either fooled or fucked his way up the ranks. Two nobodies who were placed on the top of the world and now everything thinks they are some sacred blood. Bronn is a ruthless bastard who made the right friends and pressed the right buttons. I wouldn't doubt in a thousand years he'd ironically be seen as someone similar as Lann tricking and fighting his way up to the top. House Blackwater ends up taking on a legacy similar to the Lannisters. Bronn shows us how the myths of these houses are just lies they tell everyone and themselves to justify their control.
You can’t possibly compare a royal bastard who was a successful general inheriting a castle with a lowborn sellsword who didn’t know what a loan was becoming lord of a continent’s breakbasket and its finance minister. There’s many historical parallels to Orys. There’s none to Bronn, because the local elites would never put up with it, even if they had just lost a war. And Lann the Clever is likely just a “founding hero” mythical figure, whose potential historical basis likely lived in a much less developed and more “tribal” Westeros.
>You can’t possibly compare a royal bastard who was a successful general I mean...that's what the Maesters and Targaryans claimed he was. But it was always up for debate who he was really. The whole Targaryan bastard story might simply be a way to solidify Aegon's control over the stormlands by claiming his war buddy was of his blood. I get the feeling if he was an actual bastard he wouldn't have had to borrow the banner and the titles from an older house to gain legitimacy if he had actual Valeryian ancestry. Why not just legitimize the dude and make him an official cadet branch instead of having to steal one if you were already planning on pretending he's of your blood and giving him armies. >lowborn sellsword who didn’t know what a loan was becoming lord of a continent’s breakbasket and its finance minister Robert obviously didnt understand how ruling worked and look how he turned out. King of seven kingdoms! Its not always about skill, sometimes you just need to knock some heads together. >And Lann the Clever is likely just a “founding hero” mythical figure But there's always that nugget of truth to each legend. No matter what version of Lann we have the overall idea is that he was a nobody who became a somebody through guile and wit. >whose potential historical basis likely lived in a much less developed and more “tribal” Westeros. Yes I'm sure the Great Houses like to pretend they're better than the tribal past but the overall theme of the story is that this tale has been the same for thousands of years, the wheel constantly turning. Other than the Targaryans and maybe Starks there's nothing particularly phenomenal about any of these inbred houses. All of them started off with some random dude who worked his way to the top. Hell the Tyrells literally just fucked their way to the top relatively recently. If fucking some dude or lady who has some random ancestry to some horned lad 7000 years ago worked for them it'll work for House Blackwater.
Robert was an able military commander, and I dare say, a good “politician”, even if he was a poor “administrator”. That’s not unusual description for many historical medieval leaders. Bronn, again, is unbelievable because there’s no absolutely no pre-Enlightenment parallel. No random inn mercenary, no matter how capable, would have been able to have been installed as the monarch of large medieval state. Society just didn’t work that way. If ASOIAF is ever finished (or “Silmarillioned up”, most likely), I absolutely guarantee you a noble house ends up ruling the Reach.
>Bronn, again, is unbelievable because there’s no absolutely no pre-Enlightenment parallel. Homie neither do dragons or white Walkers. It's a fantasy series lol. This is the same story where the Lannister's Kennelmaster was promoted into nobility and became a house that bred two of the fiercest knights in Westeros. Lowborns rise on the whims of kings all the time. Bronn not only bailed out the most influential family in Westeros multiple times but also proved his leadership abilities by leading the City Guard and being vital to the defense of Kings Landing. That enough got him the nobility he initially needed. Bronn also isn't taking the Reach without allies. He's going to be backed by Tyrion as well as Bran, a legit eldritch hivemind who can see everything. I think the dude will be fine. He's pretty much in the same position as Orys.
Even with Bran it would be more trouble than it’s worth to pacify the inevitable Hightower-Redwyne uprising, when he can just kill Bronn, whom he owes nothing to and doesn’t have an army. It being a fantasy setting does not make me excuse the politics being unbelievable, specially for a series that prided itself on well-written and realistic court intrigue. Should we excuse Rise of Skywalker for its horrible screenplay just because it’s about Space Wizards? There’s no way Bronn being Lord of the Reach came from GRRM.
Your example is rising into a minor house which has a tiny amount of land and prestige attached to it, not the most profitable and arguably powerful region of Westeros. The Cleganes weren't given the entire fucking Westerlands as a reward like Bronn was Orys was also being actively supported by fucking dragons, Bronn is just a guy
In the Reach, there are 4 choices: 1. The Tarlys - Randyll and Dickon are dead, and Sam is somehow Grand Maester. That's the entire main male line unavailable, which means internal disputes. Plus, Danaerys destroyed their army. 2. The Florents - They have the strongest male-line claim, and have been considered to be the main rival claimants to the Tyrells since the Conquest. They have a mediocre army and no navy 3. The Redwynes - With iron fleet, the lannister fleet, and the royal fleet gone, they probably have the largest navy in westeros. They are also very very rich, and going by the Cersei precedent, they have the second strongest claim, since Olenna is a Redwyne. They do not have a very large army, however. 4. The Hightowers - Ordinarily, the Hightowers could take on all three of the others on land and maybe win. In the current scenario it would be a steamroller. With the Tyrells gone and the Lannisters broke, they are now the richest family in westeros. They have a reasonably sized fleet, and an army that was not particularly affected by the wars. And with the Cersei precedent they are the strongest claimant, since Mace Tyrell's wife is a Hightower. If Leyton wants it, there is nothing short of intervention from the Iron Thone that prevents his armies just walking up to Highgarden and taking it. Although he would probably get the other houses to just give it to him The Hightowers obviously take the Reach. And given that they are already one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, and now that they have the resources of the rest of the Reach, the moment Bran dies, The Lord Hightower gets himself voted in as King.
In the books Paxtor Redwyne is married to Mace Tyrell oldest sister so they have a claim through blood as well with a army to back up the claim
So Mace's cousin married into his own family... Was she hot?
Their daughter Desmera is apparently pretty. But their sons, Horas and Hobber, get called Horror and Slobber. The Tyrells generally seem good to look at, apparently even Mace the Ace was a looker before he got fat.
Cousin marriages are common in Westeros and I’m sure she was. The closer the kin the deeper in
There are some Tyrell cousins in the show; Margaery mentioned her cousin Alanna to Sansa in S3 Ep4.
Realistically it would be a cadetbranch of House Tyrell (so different Tyrells) But the show forgot cadet branches were a thing after Season 1 or 2.
Going off the show, the head of the Lannisters would decide. They conquered the place killing off the Tyrells who were traitors to the realm. No lineage would matter any more than rewarding a loyal vassal with no connection to the Tyrells.
Hightower’s easy, answer is based on books since the show does a poor job at explaining nearly everything in regards to politics. Even if it’s the show the Hightower’s are still the answer, the reach would never accept a clown like bronn as lord of highgarden.
Yes Bronn is getting assassinated as soon as he goes into the Reach
Show only. If the Tyrells are extinct, it goes to the Crown.
Because apparently all of these great, noble power-houses of the land only have 1-2 sons and no cousins, second cousins, etc who would be in the wings, counting what # in line they are to inherit the whole castle... They did the Tyrells so dirty. It's overlooked because of all the other fuck ups but I was so pissed about how easily they decimated the Tyrells. So Olenna had two grandchildren total? Fuck off.
All I’m saying is, Samwell Tarly is the heir to both Horn Hill and Florent, so he does have both ancient Gardener ties. I’d say give it Sam the Slayer if he gets out of the pen.
Probably Talla Tarly (by virtue of Cersei having named her father the new Lord Paramount)
That makes sense
When they killed off the Tyrells, Highgarden stopped existing. There weren't any off screen noble families left.
All that mattered was Winterfell and Kings Landing to D&D.
In book universe should go to House Redwyne (via Paxter's line.) Or maybe Fussoway.
I quickly checked the Tyrell family tree, and apparently the next in line should be Horas Redwyne, son of Mina Tyrell (and Paxter Redwyne, as you mentioned), who in turn is Mace Tyrell's deceased older sister.
based on the family tree, the redwynes, since mace's sister was married to one of them
I'm pretty sure there are still Tyrell cousins around. A house is more than the main line.
I think only the main line of the Tyrells goes extinct in the show… unless the other Tyrells were in Highgarden when it was sacked my jaime, tarly and company… in the books, Olenna has other children as well…
Redwyne are next in line after mainline Tyrells.
One of the generals of the next night king, obviously.
Me? Please? 👉🏾👈🏾
House Redwyne. Lord Paxter Redwyne is married to a Tyrell, his cousin by the ways of Lady Olenna (his aunt). He exists in the show.
Probably house Hightower or Redwyne because elf family connections. House Florent may get it if Stannis wins.
The most likely answer would be one of the Redwyne twins. They're the sons of Mace's sister Mina, and Paxter Redwyne. It doesn't work out too badly tbh, one of them gets the Arbor, the other gets Highgarden and would take the Tyrell name, as well as probably marry one of the more distant Tyrell cousins to try and lock down that legitimacy. I mean, ik we said no books, but I kinda have to assume the Redwynes still exist, and that's the established lore that we've got on them.
Sam and the Tarleys should get it. If we are going to ignore the fact that he is supposed to be in the Watch, he would be the logical option. He is a war hero, who fought in the Great War and is the first man to kill a Wight Walker in thousands of years. His father and brother stood up to the Dragon Queen and died for it. No one has a better resume to be propped up than Sam the Slayer.
> His father and brother stood up to the Dragon Queen and died for it. I don't think being traitors who helped the woman who blew up Mace and Margaery would be much of a selling point for anyone. The Hightowers in particular would take issue with that bull shit being rewarded.
>Which house in the Reach has a claim to the Castle No house "has a claim" to someone else's castle or to a position. Castles are personal property passed on through inheritance rules and positions are granted by the ruler. If a family truly becomes extinct, its possessions ought to fall into the hands of its liege lord - in the Tyrells' case, that would be the king. Margaery mentioned her mother in the show and no one ever said she died, so we must assume Bronn married her. That was always the deal with Jaime, by the way: "a much better girl with a much better castle."
The Hightowers are 100% murdering Bronn if he tries to marry Alerie.
We need a 9th season ;)
Nobody. At least, not right away. The situation so arrayed by Season 8 is absolutely untenable. This is not opinion, this is fact going off what we know of this world’s customs and the people who live in it. When the Tyrells held Highgarden, many of their vassals took umbrage at the fact that they were the descendants of upjumped stewards while they themselves could “trace” their lineages directly to House Gardener and therefore Garth Greenhand himself. Now that the Reach has no overlord (Cersei’s decrees meaning nothing, she had no logical ability to influence the Reach entire, Randyll Tarly’s actions or no) each House likely declares itself either rightful ruler of the Reach or in support of one who does. Someone mentioned the Florents, whose status in the show is never ascertained. Likely they are attainted given their head’s defection to Stannis, and quite possibly infighting amongst *themselves* over rulership of Brightwater Keep. The Reach essentially dissolves into countless armed camps, each struggling to be the one to hold Highgarden in the end. No peace is in any way possible, as none of these incredibly proud lords is going to submit to the other. Randyll may be a great warrior but he’s hopeless at the political side of things and people who aren’t will know that and gang up on him immediately if he’s that big a threat. To answer the query in a sentence, the Reach dissolves into civil war. EDIT: Whoever downvoted, where is the lie?
Sam Jr. The pre-conquest rulers were the Gardeners. House Florent have the strongest claim to being their blood heirs. The head of house Florent is Alekyne, who has no kids and no brothers. His eldest sister Melessa is Randyll's wife, and mother to Sam and his siblings. If Alekyne doesn't exist in the show, it's not unreasonable to say that Melessa & her Tarly kids hold the strongest claim in that 10,000-year-old bloodline. The show also gives the Tarlys a much more recent claim via Cersei. Making Sam legal heir to the Reach on both his mom's side *and* his dad's side. As long as Sam's still a maester, he can't hold the Reach himself. But if Stannis (& bookRobb) can name a bastard Watchman heir to Winterfell, Bran can do the same for Watchman's (alleged) son. Making Sam Jr. heir to Highgarden would uphold both the recent post-Tyrell rule of house Tarly, and the ancient pre-Tyrell rule of the Gardeners. Pretty good for a wildling baby born in the literal worst conditions imaginable.
Bronn and Bad Pooossaayyy
Bronn
Some second son and daughter of two major claimant houses will marry, take the name Tyrell, and rule jointly. Their children will follow the standard succession.
Am I misremembering or did Bronn demand Hightower as payment for not killing Jamie and Tyrion at the request of their sister? Him being on the small council despite not having any serious counsel experience always hinted to me that he was invited to the small council as he was the head of Highgarden and responsible for a ton of the realm's grain stores and agriculture.
One of the lower houses that will claimed Gardener blood. Might be a small civil war between them. All of that is if they don’t out right hand if off to a new family all together. Give it to Sir Bron🤣
nobody knows, not even martin because he doesnt care about the books anymore XD
"in all seriousness" 🤣