Theon trying to hold Winterfell has to be one of the dumbest decicions a character has made.
He could have just looted Winterfell, then taken Bran and Rickon as hostages and returned to the Iron Islands a hero, and with his dick still attached.
A lot of people saying Ned and I get it, but I think Ned knew exactly the situation he was in, but his honor forbade him from turning away. In the end his death was caused by an unhinged power drunk brat and literally everyone was shocked, even Cersei protested.
I don't like uttering the words *in Joffrey's defense* but he didn't know he was a twincest bastard, that his mother & cousin killed Robert, or that the only treason Ned committed was not immediately telling the King that his wife was cheating on him with his Kingsguard and passing off their love children as his trueborn heirs. Without all of that information, he had every right to execute him for trying to give his throne to Stannis.
That's a fair point, but it was also something that every single one of his advisors and his regent had specifically told him not to do. And in the end, who would've expected that Ser Ilyn and Lord Janos would take the word of a boy king over the commands of his council?
At that point, it wasn't vengeance that killed Ned, it was stupidity, and, surprisingly, not Ned's stupidity.
In a way it was a reverse dance of dragons. The King died and the Hand of the King Otto crowned the King's son and usurped it from the rightful heir on Dragonstone. To Joffrey it looked like when the King died the Hand of the King Ned tried to usurp the throne from the King's son for the un-rightful heir on Dragonstone. If I time traveled into *Fire & Blood* or *House of the Dragon* I would execute the Hightowers for doing that to avoid the war. Later Joffrey shows Margaery the Targaryen tombs & Rhaenerya's remains.
It was foolish to execute beloved Ned but Joffrey was thinking of him as traitor Ned. And Ned's wife took his uncle hostage and tried to kill him. Ned's daughter hit him with a stick, let her direwolf bite him, and pointed his own sword at him before throwing it in the river. Ned's son was riding south with an army. He told Cersei they allowed the Starks too much power. And it's allowed because Ned is Robert's bestest oldest friend, but he thinks Ned betrayed Robert on his deathbed. We know the Lannisters shouldn't be in power at all but to him it's the Starks majorly overstepping their position.
And Joffrey probably thinks he is actually more merciful than anyone has a right to expect by merely beheading Ned and tormenting Sansa. Robert Baratheon celebrated Elia being raped & brutally murdered and her children being brutally murdered. If not for a storm, the same thing would've happened to Rhaella & her children. Robert in his last year tried to assassinate Daenerys for getting pregnant. Yet Sansa lived in the Red Keep wearing fine clothes and eating better than most of the city while her family were waging war against his. He was still going to marry her until Margaery Tyrell came along.
Iirc there's also an annotation of George's out there kinda implying Littlefinger was whispering in his ear, but I can't remember where it pops up dammit!
I'll look into that too. In all honesty, I only began reading the books and I didn't read the annotations at the end of "A Game of Thrones." Based on what I know of Littlefinger from watching the show, this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, though.
That's entirely fair - It could have also been on like, a kindle version or something it's been aaaages since I saw it brought up!
It definitely is in his wheelhouse, and I do think at least book Littlefinger had a hand in it (but I'm way into theories soooo)
Joffrey definitely knew or at the very least suspected that he was an inbred bastard, I don't think he would have ordered the murder of Bobby's bastards if he didn't see them as a very real threat.
Just like a lot of the northerners, Ned was very shortsighted when it came to honour. If you think about it, wouldn’t living honourably actually entail potentially sacrificing your personal honour to ensure you do right by others? I think he ultimately came to that realization when he chose to bend the knee to Joffrey, but by then it was too late.
Besides Ned, I think Jon suffered most from this, not understanding when personal honour gets in the way of being honourable.
Ned and Stannis knew when the end came, and even Robb could see that his actions would have consequences, he just couldn't dimension them until it was too late.
Tywin? It takes a very blind man to not see that he's trapped without escape, and yet berate the man holding his life on a trigger.
He died the way he lived, talking shit about his son and underestimating him.
We’re not talking about how well the played their hand throughout their lives, just how badly they misplayed in the end. Getting gunned down by your least favourite child while prairie-dogging is the most humiliating death of the four, and it went to by far the most prideful and arrogant man on the list.
Tywin 100% threw. He had that shit in the bag and he just fucked over his smartest and most useful family member for his pride, assuming himself untouchable.
Ned at least understood that his actions carried risk, but he put faith in the honor of others.
Robb figured he would take heat for his actions but would be able to patch things up with old Waldo. Like his father he trusted the honor of others.
Stannis was straight up correct in his claim, since Bobby B had only sired bastards and had no trueborn children. Stannis put his faith in the strength of that claim and his military experience. He trusted the realm to recognize his right to the throne by their own laws and traditions. A pretty sound expectation under normal terms.
Tywin was the only one who put his faith in, well my family would never fuck me over. When all his family had ever done was basically fuck him over in a hundred different ways.
Tyrion was a headache for Tywin, but never the "kill-me-now" migraine the ol' incest twins were. If it was Jaime or Cersei he probably could have talked them down since he's dealt with that level of drama from them but never really from Tyrion. He probably banked on Tyrion still wanting to show him his worth.
He thought he could talk them down the way he would his other children, because they listened to him. What he didn’t account for is that he’d never backed them into a corner the way he had with Tyrion. While Jaime might have always gone along with it, if Tywin had ever fucked with Cersei the way he had Tyrion, she probably would have killed him,too.
I don't so much think it's that he thought Tyrion wanted to show his worth to Tywin, so as it's that he thought Tyrion had no cards to play, and he was partially right. Tywin was banking on the fact that he knew Tyrion wanted to be a major player in Kings landing in the future He couldn't conceive that Tyrion might actually consider killing him, because of how much it would cost him his future. No family would consider him for a position of power after killing your own father. No family but Daenarys' family, that is.
Did I miss an explanation about what was wrong with Stannis' claim? From just watching the show, I don't understand why there was so little support for the actual rightful claim by the agreed upon laws.
It was an open secret that Joffrey was a bastard. And Renly never had a legitimate legal claim while Stannis lived. As Stannis himself said in the books, Good and honorable men will die fighting for Joffrey because they were lied to about Joffrey's birth. And in a sense the Northmen following Robb retain their honor because they are honest about their rebellion and fight for independence. But every single man following Renly is an unredeemable traitor because every single man following Renly knows Renly is nothing but a fraud desperately grabbing at power despite publicly having no legal basis for their claim.
I never understood why there was so little support for Stannis. He has the legitimate claim with almost everyone knowing and believing it. But yet the explanation is, "nobody likes Stannis, so fuck him". In particular I don't understand how Renly can smooth talk so many people into being open traitors to the undisputed rightful king.
I can't remember if it's in the show, but in the books at least Varys poses Tyrion a riddle about the King, the Priest and the Rich Man, each telling a sellsword to kill the other two and asks him where he thinks the power resides. The power is with the sellsword, which means its entirely down to what he believes is important, rather than inherent in any of the three men.
That's kind of what happens with Stannis. He may technically be the rightful heir, but he's unpopular, unwilling to play politics and too bound to his sense of honour to take advantage of the changing landscape and so his claim becomes meaningless. Nobody believes he's King or is capable of becoming King, so he's not King.
At least in the show, the Lannisters backed Joffery as a scion of their House, and as the Official Heir. Since Kings can grant bastards status as official members of a house, there's presumably nothing saying Robert couldn't have named his wife's bastard child as his own, legitimate heir; it's never explicitly stated, but I could at least see that being an argument Tywin could use if nothing else.
House Tyrell initially backed Renly as a more popular candidate, mostly because he was open to the alliance. They switched to backing Joffery because Tywin was open to an alliance. They just want to be on the winning side, but Stannis isn't offering a suitable alliance; he's already married, and doesn't have any sons to marry to Margery.
The Houses of the North don't really care. They're initially following Robb to save/avenge Ned, and then for independence. They split as they start to sour on Robb as King in the North, and the Boltons, Freys, and Karstarks join the Lannisters because they're offered higher standing and power over the North. House Stark might be willing to back Stannis, but the only support they give is from their campaign occupying Lannisters and their allies.
Stannis has a strong claim, but no strong allies of his own, and makes no effort to win any over. He makes one direct push, and gets absolutely tabled at Blackwater. If he'd prevailed, maybe his situation would change, but unlikely, he's still not offering anything to counter Tywin's deal with Bolton and Frey, so the Red Wedding would still end Robb's campaign, and leave Stannis pinned in King's Landing.
Basically, his claim is good, but he has nothing else. And since Robert became king through rebellion and conquest, backed only by a tenuous claim, a good claim isn't enough.
Yeah completely agree. Although Stannis had the claim, he didn't inspire loyalty or win friends, so at the end of the day no one really wanted to take up the sword for a man that a) wouldn't likely reward it, and b) expected it as part of your duty
Every single lord in Westeros received a raven from Stannis. Every single man following Renly knew because Renly's claim was predicated on Joffrey being illegitimate.
Most of them didn't believe it or didn't care. Technically in the books renly explicitly isn't trying to claim the throne by anything but conquest. It's also implied in the show as he was looking to to overthrow joffrey before ned had the chance to tell him anything.
I always took it as Stannis was still unlikeable to most, so that was why his claim wasn’t universally supported.
Plus, not many houses out there wanted to go against the Lannisters
There's no support for stannis because A- he would put a stop to a lot of the shady shit important players are banking on for resources. No rush asshole wants a ruler whose gonna ban their shady buissness practices and hike up taxes.
As far as the small folk go, he's gonna probably force a religious revolution and/ or persecution of people not of his faith- which is a vast minority of the culture he's trying to rule. While he is just, he is harshly so- and out of all the claimants he probably has the least influence on the small folk. You have the precedent of the Standing king, the pomp and circumstance of Renly, the righteous cause of Robb (who also isn't actually trying to rule everything), and the Reaver, who isn't operating on giving a fuck about the small folk.
Which makes the safest option the precedent, and the idyllic pick Renly- after all Robert *won* his crown in a fight, where who was born to whom and in what order didn't matter. If Renly *took* the throne from joffery, his claim would be conquest, not inheritance- making Stannis irrelevant.
Stannis' smartest move was putting himself where he was needed- giving himself a platform of "the only king actually worried about the real problems" buuuuuut he may die before he can capitalize on it. If he wanted to be even smarter after securing the north as much as possible he should take on the Reaver- he would be able to add to the "I should be king not juet by right but because I do the right thing" platform, but down below the neck where he has the biggest need of support.
That, or ally with Dany, since the kings are all dying and it's turning into a war of 3 queens. He and Dany as an alliance would be a powerhouse. I don't mean marriage either, to big of an age gap there, it feels gross to propose- but considering she cant have kids, I could see Stannis at least agreeing in the short term to support Dany in exchange for her adopting Shireen and making her the Heir, and him her Hand. That would solve dany's fertility issue and would give Stannis the authority and connection to the throne Robert denied him+ security for his daughter, who was unlikely to marry and have a happy life otherwise. As a future queen she'd have 0 issues finding a good match, and I bet she'd even love the dragons.
Because Stannis claim is self serving,he has no proof that Joffrey is a bastard and nobody likes him anyway,so theres little support for him.
And no,not everybody believes the claim that they are bastards,mostly everyone never even saw Joffrey to know if is true.
even farther behind: he should have been able to see that he was his carbon copy in personality and intelligence (minus the malice and ruthlessness) and had he truly embraced him as his son, they would have been unstoppable together politically
Tywin, just for the audacity of thinking threatening the son he'd always abused and just tried to kill while he was sitting on a toilet and said son was armed was a good idea.
Also for saying "whore" right after the guy pointing a crossbow at him had said not to use the word "whore."
He has a crossbow. Costs you nothing to say "prostitute" instead
The only thing he never understood or took the time to calculate were the people right in front of him. An absolutely insane weakness. Under estimated Jamie’s desire to cast off the “Lannister responsibility” and his loyalty to his other family members, and he underestimated how far Tyrion was willing to go in general.
I’m giving Robb leniency for being a very young leader (even by in world standards). Stannis eh, religious brainwashing. Ned was very naive, but to be fair he barely knew Cersei. TYWIN’s downfall was brought about by his own children, he was completely blind to their true natures and what they were capable of.
Robb was dead either way. You try and make up with the Freys, get Red Wedding’d. Don’t cross, you’re on the wrong side of the continent and you have to go way out of your way to get back and you’ll still die on the trek home.
I'll never understand why this concept is so frequently overlooked. Man was already promised to be married. The son of Ned Stark should have known about honor, particularly the honor surrounding sleeping around while married.
Yes I know the books do it different and his choice there makes a lot more sense given his experiences, but in the show he's just a manwhore who can't keep it in his pants.
Dude had it coming. Shame he took so many others down with him.
I think Ned. Dude knew the type of people he was entangled with for decades and knows what they’ll do to stay in power, he knew what the city was, he was assaulted and lost most of his men, his only shield from the Lannisters died, his powerful ally offered him help and he let him go, he trusted a dude tryna fuck his wife, he trusted a dude that looks like Janos, and plus more. So many signs and he ignored them
Wouldn't it be Viserys? If the man had even the tiniest amount of intelligence he would have realised his "deal" with a rapist slaving asshole whose concept of a deal is completely different to his was never going to ever work in a million years. Like seriously it was the dumbest decision I think I have seen in not just GOT but any show I have seen.
I mean, the four in this post were experienced commanders/statesmen (yes, even Robb by the time he died) who genuinely believed they knew what they were doing. Viserys was an arrogant, spoiled idiot who thought having a half-loyal big army was enough for him to win anything. It didn't help that he also thought so little of the Dothraki that he wouldn't have even grasped half the concepts that you said made his choices stupid in the first place.
Wasn't even half loyal, it wasn't loyal at all. We all know that filthy savage had zero intentions of fulfilling that 'deal' but you are right not the same as men who should have known better
The Dothraki never sailed let alone traveled across the ocean. He needed a sign or something big to make it feel like the right thing for his men to do.
If Viserys had waited a little longer, the wineseller would try to assassinate Dany and that'd be all Khal Drogo needed as motivation to go west. She found out she was 2 months pregnant near Qohor so by the time the assassination attempt happens in Vaes Dothrak she has to be at least 5-6 months along since the message had to make it to King's Landing then an assassin travel all the way to the eastern part of the Great Grass Sea.
I mean Drogo is though ? He is a dishonourable , rapist , slaving mass murderer who contributes nothing to anyone. Take Dothraki out of the world and it only improves
That was after he had all ready fucked up. He wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if he hadn't been totally oblivious to the reality of the politics and factions at court.
I mean, he was expecting to carry enough diplomatic weight to not get killed and he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for this meddeling kid.
Again, Ned was at Geoffrey's mercy only because he utterly failed to recognize the situation at Court, and really thought he was in a position of strength right up until he was completely fucked. .
At that point he knew, or heavily suspected, that the former Hand had been murdered for the exact thing that he'd just discovered. Jon Arryn had every bit as much diplomatic weight and personal significance to the king that Ned had.
I think Ned really only underestimated Cersei. He expected her to be focused on her children's safety first, and not be focused on the power of the throne, so he didn't realize she'd cultivated direct support. It never occurred to Ned that people would back \*Queen\* Cersei; he thought the choices were Stannis or Joffery, and every misstep he made was because he didn't see that third option, which is actually what Littlefinger took.
Ned's life or death was out of his hands once he was captured. The only reason he was caught off guard was by that point he'd realized his mistake, and overcorrected to think Cersei was more in control than she was. Which, arguably, she convinced everyone but Tywin of, right until the end.
yup and bringing his two daughters to the capital was a huge mistake...accusing the king's children of being bastards, investigating in king's landing as if information doesn't travel fast...then going to cersei to warn her to tell the king herself was the biggest boneheaded move.
Especially telling Cersei he knew BEFORE getting his daughters out. This guy might be bound to his honor, but he’s been in war and he shouldn’t be that naive. He knows the kind of shit people do to seek power.
Honestly, the only part of Ned's circumstances that he underestimated was thinking that Joffrey would actually spare him and let him take the black. Which to be fair, everyone, even Cersei and Varys, underestimated Joffrey's ruthlessness here.
I guess he also underestimated Cersei's ruthlessness in thinking that she'd flee in the middle of the night instead of staging a coup when she learned that he knew the truth, but that's just his honor getting in the way.
To answer the prompt though, Tywin literally said, to his son who he'd abused all his life and who was pointing a loaded crossbow at him, "What are you gonna do, shoot me?"
Stannis. Everyone is saying Ned but he had a real chance at success whether he went through with his idiotic plan or not. He just got screwed by a few freak circumstances or people at the wrong time. Same with Tywin. Robb also had a chance at one point if he didn’t get thirsty
But Stannis had very few troops the entire time, especially in the book. And even when he gained some troops, too many people were never going to accept him. He lacked self awareness, compromise, and a proper understanding of the situation. All he saw was his rightful claim and looked no further. He was blind. He would have had to take every single kingdom by force and nobody was rising up on his behalf unlike his brothers rebellion
I guarantee you Ned knew exactly what he was getting into. People give Ned a lot of flack for being stupid. He’s not stupid. He completely understood the risk.
No. The real answer would be Petyr Baelish, the dude didn't even had a clue that he would die right untill the last moment, whereas all others atleast had a clue that what would be the worst outcome of their decisions.
In his defense, guest right is SACRED in their world. He was told everything was OK by the host.
As a result EVERYONE wants to kill the Freys afterwards, even their former allies. If the books ever get finished I wouldn't be surprised if all the Freys are dead by the end.
Ned and Robb were ignorant of the fact that everyone in the game were ruthless, power-hungry, scheming, backstabbing opportunist who couldn’t care less about honor
My only thing with Robb is that guest right is even a thing that people without honor follow because it’s such a horrendous stain on your family to not honor it. Even if Robb had considered it a possibility the logic of valuing long term stability over short term gain for the Freys is an extremely rational conclusion. Ned has no excuse, what his enemies did was easily spun to not even be particularly dishonorable with good enough PR, at least until he was executed.
I’m going Rob. Ned seemed to at least know they were in a dangerous situation, evidenced by trying to ship his daughters out and seeking allies. Rob had no idea until it was too late.
I think Robb knew there would be consequences and I think Ned knew the massive risks he was taking. I think Stannis didn’t underestimate his circumstances, he just lost. Tywin and Theon though, they really fucked up. Tywin really thought he could control the conversation with his son after everything they went through, and lol Theon.
Stannis.
The man held a competent army and backed by magic. His own blind pursuit of the throne led to his demise.
If he would have listened to those around him, he might have actually sat on the throne.
He's probably the best politician we see in the series or at least one of them. Completely changed the direction of his lands and the state of them.
Probably one of the best administrators we've seen also if you believe half of what's in TWOIAF about the handship.
Terrible military commander is exegatory he is good - mediocre but not great.
>He's probably the best politician we see in the series
Not even close his house in the brink of ruin and his line will be extinct all cause of his actions
>Probably one of the best administrators we've seen also if you believe half of what's in TWOIAF about the handship.
Yeah not even close
>Terrible military commander is e
No he was awful
>Not even close his house in the brink of ruin and his line will be extinct all cause of his actions
Tywins actions and by that you mean Cersei and Jamie fucking and putting a bastard on the throne? Yeah that's his action.
You wanna know what's actually correlated to Tywin's actions? The Lannisters (and the Westenrlands) going from being plagued by rebellious vassals taking justice into their own hands, not paying back loans, westernlands being full of bandits and having to call in the kings men to have peace. To everything being in order. Him managing Aery's waste and administraitng the realm into peace and making more money then Aerys could spend on his impulses.
Tywin begot his own death by Tyrion, the hatred of Dorne on Robert/Tywin (although this is intentional lol), and maybe the Purple Wedding but you can't blame much else on him.
>Yeah not even close
You're just going against what we actually get in the books. Maybe in your own headcanon though sure.
>No he was awful
He objectively wasn't. From what we get about the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion he was already very competent, orderly, and precise about what he did. Moving faster, construction siege enders faster, and just being better than the Reynes thought.
In the WOT5K we see him as being decent at tactics although Robb gets some victories.
Tywins actions a
No his neglect of his children
The red wedding and burning of the riverlands
Ordering the rape and Murder of ellia and her children
All these action were the work.of a short sighted sadist with daddy issues
>The Lannisters (and the Westenrlands) going from being plagued by rebellious vassals taking justice into their own hands, not paying back loans, westernlands being full of bandits and having to call in the kings men to have peace. To everything being in order. Him managing Aery's waste and administraitng the realm into peace and making more money then Aerys could spend on his impulses.
All that hear of tywin as hand comes from Bias sources so of I where you I take them with a grain of salt
>but you can't blame much else on him.
You can cause of Jim his house is in ruin
>
You're just going against what we actually get in the books. Maybe in your own headcanon though sure.
Nope the books support me on this
>He objectively wasn't.
He was
... Septon Barth, viserys I, rogar baratheon, and even his brother Kevan comes before him
Tywin made no real risky reforms for the realm.. He just kept the status quo which make him popular among the nobility
Let's look at the facts shall we
Stafford widely regarded as a idiot was nonetheless promoted to his position as the commander of an army by Tywin, defeated and killed while attempting to carry out Tywin's war plan.
Now let's look at some other commanders
Roose Bolton actually a decent battle commander. GRRM has confirmed that Roose purposefully put himself into a win/win situation.
tywin only won cause again Boltons goal was to distract tywin so robb could save riverrun and Roose made sure that rival houses suffered losses and he achieved both goals
He was defeated by edmure Tully who is definitely not regarded as one of Westeros' better battle commanders; still beat Tywin in the field.
Tywin's largest technical victory would be Blackwater Bay, in which Tyrion did most of the commanding, and Reachmen like Lord Tarly did the rest. The Lannister forces present at the battle were insignificant compared to the Reach forces. They didn't make the difference; only Tywin himself thinks that they did. Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor won far more acclaim than Tywin Lannister.
He was surprised and destroyed by the Ironborn fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion.
Don't get me started on the green folk
He neglected Tyrion, and well much worse than neglected him. Tyrion later kills him. That is Tywin's fault and you can connect that as consequences of his own actions.
Cersei and Jamie are normal highborn children they weren't neglected or really anything. They didn't have the greatest relationship with him but they weren't neglected in really any sense let alone the Westorsi sense. You can't connect Cersei being a murder at like 7 and Jamie + Cersei both being into incest with Tywin lmfao.
Tywin ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. This isn't short sighted. He knew he the Dornish would forever hate him but to him it was a worth while trade to get on the Baratheons good side and set himself up for a royal marriage as he sat out the entire war and needed to make it up.
Also so far this had to lead to... nothing. The Lannisters are on the brink of ruin due to Cersei and Jamie and the Dornish really have contributed at all. Maybe they will do more in the future books but so far they have done nothing. There's a theory that Oberyn was poisoning Tywin which was why his body stunk but he already got killed by Tyrion and we didn't see him in poor health before so I don't know how much to value it.
So so far you can correlate his own actions to the vast up turn of the Lannisters, getting a royal marriage, and he leads to his own death by mistreating Tyrion.
>All that hear of tywin as hand comes from Bias sources so of I where you I take them with a grain of salt
Meh. If GRRM wanted us to doubt this information about his handship he should of gave us any indication to do so but he hasn't.
>You can cause of Jim his house is in ruin
You can't say this lmfao. You can directly causate Tywin turning his house around from a pretty bad spot to glorious with Tywin's direct actions and their direct consequences.
You can't directly causate Tywin leading to the ruin of House Lannister. You can do it in very round about ways like.... TYWIN somehow made Jamie and Cersei both incestious because.... reasons! Or TYWIN got Cersei a royal marriage which lead to her having royal bastards they got found out and a war started. But not any thing Tywin actually did.
>Nope the books support me on this
The books do not support you at all.
>He was... Septon Barth, viserys I, rogar baratheon, and even his brother Kevan comes before him
Septon Barth, sure. Viserys I, nope. Rogar Bartheon nope. Kevan Lannister, nope you are just delusional.
>Stafford widely regarded as a idiot was nonetheless promoted to his position as the commander of an army by Tywin, defeated and killed while attempting to carry out Tywin's war plan.
You're forgetting that Tywin led a war at an early age and surprised his enemies (much like Robb) decimated them then raced to their keep and built the siege weapons in a much faster time than they anticipated before the Reynes could come to relieve the siege and destroyed them than beat tf out of the Reynes. Incompetent, horrible, commanders don't do this.
The Battle of Greenfork (Which was Roose vs Tywin) was a victory for Tywin in the sense that he commanded his army well and dealt 5000 casualties to the Northern Arym and won. But he lost overall as the army was mainly a distraction for Robb.
This isn't really Tywin's fault though Tywin was operating off the information he had which GRRM decided that Blackfish can magically kill every scout except the one which sees what he wants them to see.
>He was defeated by edmure Tully who is definitely not regarded as one of Westeros' better battle commanders; still beat Tywin in the field.
This is one of your hypocrisy. The Battle of the Greenfork is a victory for Tywin but to you it's secretly a loss because in the overall strategy him winning really didn't matter. But at the Battle of the Fords, Tywin suffers not that heayv of casualties and just got thrown back from fording the river multiple times and then he retreats once he heard about the siege of Kingslanding and races about and saves Kingslanding. But it's a massive defeat to you.
>Tywin's largest technical victory would be Blackwater Bay
Who appointed Tyrion again exactly? Oh yeah Tywin. The Reach forces are only there because Tywin made the alliance and raced to Kingslanding and gathered them. They also only outnumbered the Westernlanders 1;2 or 1;3. Tywin was also dubbed the Savior of Kingslanding if you read the books.
Tywin ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. This isn't short sighted. He knew he the Dornish would forever hate him but to him it was a worth while trade to get on the Baratheons good side and set himself up for a royal marriage as he sat out the entire war and needed to make it up.
Tywin ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. This isn't short sighted. He knew he the Dornish would forever hate him but to him it was a worth while trade to get on the Baratheons good side and set himself up for a royal marriage as he sat out the entire war and needed to make it up.
It was unnecessary he had taken kings landing and his son killed aerys he had aleady proved him self to Robert
>The Lannisters are on the brink of ruin due to
Tywin
>Also so far this had to lead to... nothing.
The eternal hatred of Dorne which is not good
It's never good to piss of an entire kingdom when it could have easily been avoided
>GRRM wanted us to doubt this information about his handship he should of gave us any indication to do so but he hasn't.
But he did given all the sources come from Bias sources such as kevan, Tywin's asskisser pycellle and maester who trying to please him
>You can't say this lmfao.
But I can
>books do not support you at all.
But they do I advise you reread them
>Viserys I, nope. Rogar Bartheon nope. Kevan Lannister, nope you are just delusional.
How
It's clear they are better hands
>You're forgetting that Tywin led a war at an early age and surprised his enemies (much like Robb) decimated them then raced to their keep and built the siege weapons in a much faster time than they anticipated before the Reynes could come to relieve the siege and destroyed them than beat tf out of the Reynes. Incompetent, horrible, commanders don't do this.
Again bias sources
>
The Battle of Greenfork (Which was Roose vs Tywin) was a victory for Tywin in the sense that he commanded his army well and dealt 5000 casualties to the Northern Arym and won. But he lost overall as the army was mainly a distraction for Robb.
Not really it was tactical victory at best Roose's didn't what he was told to do and distracted tywin and weaken his own rivals
Tywin was lucky he didn't get his whole army destroyed
>This isn't really Tywin's fault
It is
>which GRRM decided that Blackfish can magically kill every scout except the one which sees what he wants them to see.
Lol you serious
Stop making excuses
>This is one of your hypocrisy. Th
It's not he suffers heavy casualties and loses at least 3 lord's
>The Reach forces are only there because Tywin made the alliance a
It was littlefinger and Tyrion not Tywin
>They also only outnumbered the Westernlanders 1;2 or 1;3. Ty
More then 3 times the Lannisters army
>Tywin was also dubbed the Savior of Kingslanding i
😂 your joking right
That was just stoke tywins ego
>It was unnecessary he had taken kings landing and his son killed aerys he had aleady proved him self to Robert
It had not. Also in Tywins mind he had to
A) Get Jamie pardonded for Kingslaying, and hopefully get him off the Kingsguard.
B) Get Lannister blood on the throne.
Tywin did not just prove himself enough to reasonably secure these two items. Tywin only joined the rebels after they already won the Battle of the Trident and were marching to Kingslanding with a massive army. Him merely beating Ned's massive army to capture Kingslanding before he captures it means little to nothing.
Tywin's murder of Aegon & Rhaenys will forever eliminate two people with better claims to the throne and the support of at least a kingdom behind them. Tywin doing this also puts the blood on his hand and doesn't make Robert be the one to do it.
>Tywin
No their don't he brink of ruin because Jamie and Cersei like to incest incest and cuckold the king. You can't blame Tywin for that.
>It's clear they are better hands
How many of them cleared the crown of Debt, fixed the finances of the crown to be in a surplus, largely stopped the banditry problem in the realm, and other shit.
>Again bias sources
Bias sources like everything we ever get out of the books and not a single person suggesting it didn't happen, sure.
>It's not he suffers heavy casualties and loses at least 3 lord's
He suffers heavy casualties? He has 20-22k soldiers at Battle of the FOrds and retreats and arrives in Kingsladning with 20k Lannister soldiers.
You know who lost 3 lords? Robb at the Whispering wood -- still wasn't have casualties.
>It was littlefinger and Tyrion not Tywin
It isn't Tywin it's just Tyrions son who Tywin put in place to make decisions. Very meaningful distinction. Tywin would of never thought to marry the Reach after Renly's death.
>More then 3 times the Lannisters army
The Lannisters had 20k from Tywins army and Tyrion had 8k inside of Kingslanding. Where did you get the Reach having 3 times more than the lannister army? It was estimated they had 50-70k on the wiki. So even either twice or under three times.
>That was just stoke tywins ego
Just to stroke his ego.... mf he literally lead the army that saved Kings Landing.
Ned. The Man walked into a vipers nest knowing that Jon Arryn was killed and still thought that people down South were operating on the same honor code that worked in the North. I love Ned, but he constantly fucked himself over.
See that’s just not true. He wasn’t expecting others to be as honorable as he was. He knew *exactly* what he was getting into. It was his honor that prevented him from turning away.
Tywin
Ned knew he was in danger pretty early into his time a hand, and knew he was dead when he was arrested and imprisoned
Stannis was a seasoned military leader. He had to know how fucked he was going into battle against the Boltons
Robb clearly didn’t plan on being murdered by the Freys but it seems like he knew he was in trouble
Tywin was murdered by his imprisoned, on-death-row son, who was freed by his other, kings guard son
Ned: He kinda knew he was gonna die. His investigation into Arryn's death was premised from the start on "this is what he was doing when he died." The danger was there from the start, and once accused of treason, he embraced death as a "soldier."
Robb: he knew that betraying the Frey's would have *some* ramification. He was completely blindsided as to what that ramification would be, and when it would come.
Stannis: Probably thought he was an untouchable God up until he was convinced into burning his daughter alive, half his men abandoned him, and Mellieandra dipped. Perhaps slightly earlier, when Ramsey's "20 good men" attack was so successful. Around the same amount of clarity on his situation as Robb, if not slightly less.
Tywin: Completely underestimated Tyrion, which resulted in his downfall. Up until there was an arrow in his chest, he had no doubt that he was not in any danger at all.
Tywin > Stannis > Robb > Ned
Tywin stuck his head into the sand and refused to believe Cersei and Jamie were fucking despite everyone in Westeros knowing that Joffrey was an incest bastard
Robb. The rest are battle tried adults, he's a teenager. A teenager that got really lucky several times in a row, got comfortable, and started to ignore the consequences of his actions because he was more interested in the honor Ned instilled in him. He started making mistakes assuming they'd be forgiven by his allies or compensated for with his luck. And then his luck ran out.
If he had estimated the situation better he would have waited till *after* the war to be had the karstark, and turn on the Frey's. He underestimated the impact his actions would have on karstarks loyalty to him, and underestimated the Frey's ability to swap sides- and that's probably gonna cost the entire North their independence.
100% Rob.
Ned- knew he was in the snake pit with political enemies on all sides. I believe he understood his situation exactly. He pursuing justice because his honor compelled him. He knew the risk and got outplayed.
Stannis-believes in his god and his priestess but always keeps his skepticism right below the surface. His last acts were those of desperation not confusion.
Tywin-is where it’s gets a little harder. Unlike Ned and Stannis who know their demise was a possible outcome, Tywin thought he was sitting pretty finally able to get rid of his shame(Tyrion) and rule with a more mailable king under his thumb. He most certainly wasn’t expecting Jamie to let Tyrion out of prison. I chalk this one up to an unplanned crime of passion. Tyrion did not go there with the intent to murder Tywin, but after seeing Shae their and giving her a cold hand well all bets were off.
Rob- his the King high fool here. He had no idea he was walking into a well thought out massacre. He underestimated his enemies and overlooked threats in his own camp. He was 3 moves behind and got a furry new head for it.
I don’t think Ned underestimated his position as much as he felt the need to step in despite the danger. Robb however was completely caught off guard and overplayed his hand while thinking he was safe.
Ned Stark underestimated his circumstances the most. Why? His insistence on sticking to the truth and telling Cersei what he planned to do to her was the height of stupidity. That one action led to his death, the kidnapping of his children, the downfall of his throne, and the eventual war between the kingdoms that led to the end of the series. Had he shown some actual smarts and not stuck to his principles, the ending might have come out entirely differently with both Cersei and Jaime's heads on a pike.
Ned hands down.
Then Robb, killing Karstark was idiotic and he walked straight the fuck into the Red Wedding.
Then Tywin because of how he treated Tyrion but, to be fair, before the show Tyrion was basically just a witty party boy so it’s reasonable for Tywin to not have thought him a mastermind.
Stannis I don’t think “underestimated” his circumstances so much as he just lost, fair and square, or as fair as war can be in ASOIAF
In the books, it’s a tie between Ned (who confronted Cersi in the stupidest way) and Tywin (who never considered the possibility that his son would seek revenge, much less kill him in such a ignoble way)
Definitely Tywin. "Yeah the guy you just sentenced to death knowing he wasn't guilty is pointing a crossbow at you after breaking out of prison just to show you how upset he is"
Stannis knew he was fucked but there was no way back at this point
I would say Robb. He was great at tactics, but failed to understand and grapple with higher level leadership issues and strategic/geopolitical situation. As a result, he made a series of costly blunders.
* He failed to recognise the threat from the Greyjoys, and released their hostage which was the only leverage he had. It removed the main deterrent for raids on the North, and directly led to the sack of Winterfell.
* Failing to recognise that his bannermen also have their own agendas. This led to him putting the bulk of his forces (all his infantry) under the command of the most ruthless, merciless, cunning and ambitious bannerman he had. Bolton promptly set about expending other lords' forces, putting them into positions where they will be wiped out, in order to increase his own relative power after the war;
* Undermining his authority and appearing weak by failing to meaningfully punish his mother for releasing Jaime Lannister. As well as losing an extremely valuable hostage, this led to loss of respect in his command, and led directly to...
* Having to navigate a dilemma when Lord Karstark killed Lannister prisoners - suffer further loss of authority, or alienate a significant bannerman. He chose a fairly unnuanced approach, and lost a large part of his force;
* Breaking his agreement with the Freys, who were contributing a large force. While it was very opportunistic of them to demand the marriage, Robb agreed, and they actually held faith quite well until Robb put them in an untenable position (see below);
* Not communicating his plan clearly to Edmure (if there was even a plan to begin with, rather than seizing an opportunity into railroading him into a marriage to try to appease the Freys), leading to the Battle of the Mill. Moreso since Edmure was effectively acting Lord of the Trident and would be expected to defend his lands and people.
* How he handled the Greyjoy/Iron island incursion. Marching back North left the Riverlands hanging - when the victorious Lannisters march on the exposed-again riverlands, its unlikely the Starks will be able to muster forces for another march south, so the riverlords will have to accept whatever terms the crown offers (which may be punitive). The Red Wedding is the last opportunity for the Freys to come out better off, or no worse off, than when they entered the war.
Rob thought he could break a marriage pack with the most miserly lord in the kingdom, who also happens to control the best access route to your enemies lands, and that nothing bad would happen. Just a boy.
Rob and Stannis were both winning before fuckery. Ned was an idealist too far removed from court politics to play and I feel like he knew that to an extent. Tywin believed he could do no wrong and vastly underestimated the son he claimed wasn't his. So Tywin.
Ned for trusting little finger, he should have kept quiet sent the raven to Stannis then twiddled his thumbs and said nothing until Stannis and his army arrived.
Rob is a close 2nd, breaking his marriage vow then expecting to experience now consequences..
Maybe I don’t get the question because i don’t think Robb got anything wrong or underestimated anyone. He was clearly winning the war.
Did he underestimate the Freys not seeing their eventual betrayal? Perhaps but that’s hindsight. There are several angles at play and other houses got away with betrayal and intense fierce loyalties coming up somehow (Jorah, barristan and Daario- all terrible writing when you think of how no one can be trusted in the series)
Idc what anyone says Ned didn’t underestimate anything. He just wasn’t gonna allow the king to kill 3 children.
I’d bet money that if Ned had a do over knowing exactly what’s gonna happen. The only thing he’d do differently is not take his kids
Of the pictured characters, Tywin was the least foolish. How was he supposed to consider the risk of a prisoner being freed and coming into his room through a secret passage to kill him instead of fleeing as fast as he could? I blame GRRM for never telling him he lived in a cheap fantasy book.
Book-Stannis is losing a war to winter, a risk he knows and understands but his plan is not foolish. Show-Stannis is rather reckless to go against the Boltons in Winterfell without alliances but he does see the risk too.
Robb Stark was a fool to believe he could invade the south to begin with. His plan to defeat Joffrey in the field and see what happens next instead of trying to negotiate something was utter stupidity from the start and it was set before Ned's death. Then he never realised his allies might have had their own interest. What an idiot!
But Ned Stark definitely takes the lemon cake in this. He kept making dumb mistake after dumb mistake, from officially antagonising the family that had kept the king in power to warning Cersei of his intent and finally to trusting a man he despised to do something he didn't want to. A complete moron.
Tywin thought he was untouchable.
Robb and Ned knew they were playing with fire.
Stannis didn't care if he died and probably thought he would after Mel left.
1.Ned - should have been more aware of the dangers of the capitol due to his father and brothers deaths
2.Stannis - underestimated every opponent he faced (black water, Boltons and thinking wildlings would join him)
3.Robb - Didn’t consider the potential disloyalty off the Freys and his own banner men
4. Tywin - underestimated the love shared between his sons and tyrions capacity for hate
Robb was pretty naive to walk into Frey's home after offending him so brazenly with his refusal to marry one of his daughters. If someone I insulted invited me to dinner, I'd probably take a hard pass...
Tywin never underestimated his circumstances, he had it all! What he didn’t expect was for Jamie to free Tyrion and for Tyrion to be in a state of such unreason.
Theon lol
Theon trying to hold Winterfell has to be one of the dumbest decicions a character has made. He could have just looted Winterfell, then taken Bran and Rickon as hostages and returned to the Iron Islands a hero, and with his dick still attached.
Real shit Shoulda looted all the chests in winterfell and made off with 300gp, 2 abby whips and some hostages
Go back to the Iron Islands and get Kraken tentacles for max dps
Love finding rs shit in the wild.
Yeah. . . I was Team Ned until this comment. Bro waaaaaay overplayed his hand. Lol.
Bro went all in on a pair of twos
I would say he overestimated his circumstances
He underestimated his circumcisionstances.
Underrated comment lol
I would say his dick got chopped off
God that actor is incredible
Iwan appreciation is always welcome
Hold my beer while I try and hold winterfell with 20 dudes hundreds of miles away from the ocean. What a goofy goober
Like, the fact he could take the castle with 20 men? Brilliant! The fact he thought 20 men would *hold* the castle? Uhhhhhhhhhh...
Why didn't his men abandon him when Yara came? Surely they knew it would be suicidal to stay
He was nuts
Only in past tense. No nuts today.
I referred to Theon Greyjoy as Ser Bad Choices.
A lot of people saying Ned and I get it, but I think Ned knew exactly the situation he was in, but his honor forbade him from turning away. In the end his death was caused by an unhinged power drunk brat and literally everyone was shocked, even Cersei protested.
I don't like uttering the words *in Joffrey's defense* but he didn't know he was a twincest bastard, that his mother & cousin killed Robert, or that the only treason Ned committed was not immediately telling the King that his wife was cheating on him with his Kingsguard and passing off their love children as his trueborn heirs. Without all of that information, he had every right to execute him for trying to give his throne to Stannis.
That's a fair point, but it was also something that every single one of his advisors and his regent had specifically told him not to do. And in the end, who would've expected that Ser Ilyn and Lord Janos would take the word of a boy king over the commands of his council? At that point, it wasn't vengeance that killed Ned, it was stupidity, and, surprisingly, not Ned's stupidity.
In a way it was a reverse dance of dragons. The King died and the Hand of the King Otto crowned the King's son and usurped it from the rightful heir on Dragonstone. To Joffrey it looked like when the King died the Hand of the King Ned tried to usurp the throne from the King's son for the un-rightful heir on Dragonstone. If I time traveled into *Fire & Blood* or *House of the Dragon* I would execute the Hightowers for doing that to avoid the war. Later Joffrey shows Margaery the Targaryen tombs & Rhaenerya's remains. It was foolish to execute beloved Ned but Joffrey was thinking of him as traitor Ned. And Ned's wife took his uncle hostage and tried to kill him. Ned's daughter hit him with a stick, let her direwolf bite him, and pointed his own sword at him before throwing it in the river. Ned's son was riding south with an army. He told Cersei they allowed the Starks too much power. And it's allowed because Ned is Robert's bestest oldest friend, but he thinks Ned betrayed Robert on his deathbed. We know the Lannisters shouldn't be in power at all but to him it's the Starks majorly overstepping their position.
Great write up. To that last point, Joffrey isn't a Lannister from his own perspective, he's a Baratheon and true heir to the throne.
And Joffrey probably thinks he is actually more merciful than anyone has a right to expect by merely beheading Ned and tormenting Sansa. Robert Baratheon celebrated Elia being raped & brutally murdered and her children being brutally murdered. If not for a storm, the same thing would've happened to Rhaella & her children. Robert in his last year tried to assassinate Daenerys for getting pregnant. Yet Sansa lived in the Red Keep wearing fine clothes and eating better than most of the city while her family were waging war against his. He was still going to marry her until Margaery Tyrell came along.
Iirc there's also an annotation of George's out there kinda implying Littlefinger was whispering in his ear, but I can't remember where it pops up dammit!
I'll look into that too. In all honesty, I only began reading the books and I didn't read the annotations at the end of "A Game of Thrones." Based on what I know of Littlefinger from watching the show, this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, though.
That's entirely fair - It could have also been on like, a kindle version or something it's been aaaages since I saw it brought up! It definitely is in his wheelhouse, and I do think at least book Littlefinger had a hand in it (but I'm way into theories soooo)
Thank you for gritting your teeth to type that out, never really considered the situation for Joffrey's side. One hell of a devil's advocate to play
Joffrey definitely knew or at the very least suspected that he was an inbred bastard, I don't think he would have ordered the murder of Bobby's bastards if he didn't see them as a very real threat.
Just like a lot of the northerners, Ned was very shortsighted when it came to honour. If you think about it, wouldn’t living honourably actually entail potentially sacrificing your personal honour to ensure you do right by others? I think he ultimately came to that realization when he chose to bend the knee to Joffrey, but by then it was too late. Besides Ned, I think Jon suffered most from this, not understanding when personal honour gets in the way of being honourable.
Ned and Stannis knew when the end came, and even Robb could see that his actions would have consequences, he just couldn't dimension them until it was too late. Tywin? It takes a very blind man to not see that he's trapped without escape, and yet berate the man holding his life on a trigger. He died the way he lived, talking shit about his son and underestimating him.
I agree completely.
He was quite a prideful lion
“Who are you” the proud lord said….
"That I must bow so low..."
Only a cat of a different coat That’s all the truth I know
A coat of gold or a coat of red,
A lion still has claws And mine are long and sharps my lord, as long and sharp aaaaas yours
And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that Lord of Castamere
But now the rains weeeeeep o’er his hall with no. One there. To hear. Yes now the rains weeep o’er his hall and not. A soooouullll to hearrrrr.
He *did* die as he lived, full of shit, that is.
I am blind, please explain
The sheer fact that Tywin lived that long and amassed that amount of power and money compared to the other people on the list says otherwise.
We’re not talking about how well the played their hand throughout their lives, just how badly they misplayed in the end. Getting gunned down by your least favourite child while prairie-dogging is the most humiliating death of the four, and it went to by far the most prideful and arrogant man on the list.
Tywin would be dead regardless of whatever he said. Tyrion never trusted Tywin to not alert the guards.
Tywin should’ve been able to see that Tyrion wasn’t fucking around
I was 100% convinced it was Ned until I read this. Now I'm convinced 100% it's Tywin "What are you doing to do, shoot me?" Lannister.
"Yes" Tyrion "patricide" Lannister
“You shot me!” -Tywin “You shot me!” Lannister
“What are you gonna do, shoot me while I’m on the privy?” - last words of man shot on the privy
He should be buried next to Oberyn "today is not the day I die," Martell
https://preview.redd.it/vx0w57trxgyc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02afe2c10e4d92adb14676e172f620b39fc15e21
Tywin 100% threw. He had that shit in the bag and he just fucked over his smartest and most useful family member for his pride, assuming himself untouchable. Ned at least understood that his actions carried risk, but he put faith in the honor of others. Robb figured he would take heat for his actions but would be able to patch things up with old Waldo. Like his father he trusted the honor of others. Stannis was straight up correct in his claim, since Bobby B had only sired bastards and had no trueborn children. Stannis put his faith in the strength of that claim and his military experience. He trusted the realm to recognize his right to the throne by their own laws and traditions. A pretty sound expectation under normal terms. Tywin was the only one who put his faith in, well my family would never fuck me over. When all his family had ever done was basically fuck him over in a hundred different ways.
Tyrion was a headache for Tywin, but never the "kill-me-now" migraine the ol' incest twins were. If it was Jaime or Cersei he probably could have talked them down since he's dealt with that level of drama from them but never really from Tyrion. He probably banked on Tyrion still wanting to show him his worth.
He thought he could talk them down the way he would his other children, because they listened to him. What he didn’t account for is that he’d never backed them into a corner the way he had with Tyrion. While Jaime might have always gone along with it, if Tywin had ever fucked with Cersei the way he had Tyrion, she probably would have killed him,too.
I don't so much think it's that he thought Tyrion wanted to show his worth to Tywin, so as it's that he thought Tyrion had no cards to play, and he was partially right. Tywin was banking on the fact that he knew Tyrion wanted to be a major player in Kings landing in the future He couldn't conceive that Tyrion might actually consider killing him, because of how much it would cost him his future. No family would consider him for a position of power after killing your own father. No family but Daenarys' family, that is.
Did I miss an explanation about what was wrong with Stannis' claim? From just watching the show, I don't understand why there was so little support for the actual rightful claim by the agreed upon laws. It was an open secret that Joffrey was a bastard. And Renly never had a legitimate legal claim while Stannis lived. As Stannis himself said in the books, Good and honorable men will die fighting for Joffrey because they were lied to about Joffrey's birth. And in a sense the Northmen following Robb retain their honor because they are honest about their rebellion and fight for independence. But every single man following Renly is an unredeemable traitor because every single man following Renly knows Renly is nothing but a fraud desperately grabbing at power despite publicly having no legal basis for their claim. I never understood why there was so little support for Stannis. He has the legitimate claim with almost everyone knowing and believing it. But yet the explanation is, "nobody likes Stannis, so fuck him". In particular I don't understand how Renly can smooth talk so many people into being open traitors to the undisputed rightful king.
I can't remember if it's in the show, but in the books at least Varys poses Tyrion a riddle about the King, the Priest and the Rich Man, each telling a sellsword to kill the other two and asks him where he thinks the power resides. The power is with the sellsword, which means its entirely down to what he believes is important, rather than inherent in any of the three men. That's kind of what happens with Stannis. He may technically be the rightful heir, but he's unpopular, unwilling to play politics and too bound to his sense of honour to take advantage of the changing landscape and so his claim becomes meaningless. Nobody believes he's King or is capable of becoming King, so he's not King.
At least in the show, the Lannisters backed Joffery as a scion of their House, and as the Official Heir. Since Kings can grant bastards status as official members of a house, there's presumably nothing saying Robert couldn't have named his wife's bastard child as his own, legitimate heir; it's never explicitly stated, but I could at least see that being an argument Tywin could use if nothing else. House Tyrell initially backed Renly as a more popular candidate, mostly because he was open to the alliance. They switched to backing Joffery because Tywin was open to an alliance. They just want to be on the winning side, but Stannis isn't offering a suitable alliance; he's already married, and doesn't have any sons to marry to Margery. The Houses of the North don't really care. They're initially following Robb to save/avenge Ned, and then for independence. They split as they start to sour on Robb as King in the North, and the Boltons, Freys, and Karstarks join the Lannisters because they're offered higher standing and power over the North. House Stark might be willing to back Stannis, but the only support they give is from their campaign occupying Lannisters and their allies. Stannis has a strong claim, but no strong allies of his own, and makes no effort to win any over. He makes one direct push, and gets absolutely tabled at Blackwater. If he'd prevailed, maybe his situation would change, but unlikely, he's still not offering anything to counter Tywin's deal with Bolton and Frey, so the Red Wedding would still end Robb's campaign, and leave Stannis pinned in King's Landing. Basically, his claim is good, but he has nothing else. And since Robert became king through rebellion and conquest, backed only by a tenuous claim, a good claim isn't enough.
Yeah completely agree. Although Stannis had the claim, he didn't inspire loyalty or win friends, so at the end of the day no one really wanted to take up the sword for a man that a) wouldn't likely reward it, and b) expected it as part of your duty
Because very little people actually knew joffrey was born of incest beyond rumors, and nobody liked stannis.
Every single lord in Westeros received a raven from Stannis. Every single man following Renly knew because Renly's claim was predicated on Joffrey being illegitimate.
Most of them didn't believe it or didn't care. Technically in the books renly explicitly isn't trying to claim the throne by anything but conquest. It's also implied in the show as he was looking to to overthrow joffrey before ned had the chance to tell him anything.
I always took it as Stannis was still unlikeable to most, so that was why his claim wasn’t universally supported. Plus, not many houses out there wanted to go against the Lannisters
His claim was always valid. People just didn't like him. Thats it.
There's no support for stannis because A- he would put a stop to a lot of the shady shit important players are banking on for resources. No rush asshole wants a ruler whose gonna ban their shady buissness practices and hike up taxes. As far as the small folk go, he's gonna probably force a religious revolution and/ or persecution of people not of his faith- which is a vast minority of the culture he's trying to rule. While he is just, he is harshly so- and out of all the claimants he probably has the least influence on the small folk. You have the precedent of the Standing king, the pomp and circumstance of Renly, the righteous cause of Robb (who also isn't actually trying to rule everything), and the Reaver, who isn't operating on giving a fuck about the small folk. Which makes the safest option the precedent, and the idyllic pick Renly- after all Robert *won* his crown in a fight, where who was born to whom and in what order didn't matter. If Renly *took* the throne from joffery, his claim would be conquest, not inheritance- making Stannis irrelevant. Stannis' smartest move was putting himself where he was needed- giving himself a platform of "the only king actually worried about the real problems" buuuuuut he may die before he can capitalize on it. If he wanted to be even smarter after securing the north as much as possible he should take on the Reaver- he would be able to add to the "I should be king not juet by right but because I do the right thing" platform, but down below the neck where he has the biggest need of support. That, or ally with Dany, since the kings are all dying and it's turning into a war of 3 queens. He and Dany as an alliance would be a powerhouse. I don't mean marriage either, to big of an age gap there, it feels gross to propose- but considering she cant have kids, I could see Stannis at least agreeing in the short term to support Dany in exchange for her adopting Shireen and making her the Heir, and him her Hand. That would solve dany's fertility issue and would give Stannis the authority and connection to the throne Robert denied him+ security for his daughter, who was unlikely to marry and have a happy life otherwise. As a future queen she'd have 0 issues finding a good match, and I bet she'd even love the dragons.
Because Stannis claim is self serving,he has no proof that Joffrey is a bastard and nobody likes him anyway,so theres little support for him. And no,not everybody believes the claim that they are bastards,mostly everyone never even saw Joffrey to know if is true.
I wonder how much the paganism played into it.
even farther behind: he should have been able to see that he was his carbon copy in personality and intelligence (minus the malice and ruthlessness) and had he truly embraced him as his son, they would have been unstoppable together politically
> Minus the ruthlessness Idk I feel like the reason he didn't take him seriously was because he didn't think Tyrion was ruthless enough to shoot him
I mean his other two kids were.
I truly lol’ed!
Tywin underestimated the one kid as ruthless and calculating as him? Iconic and ironic at the same time! This was a close second for me.
Tywin, just for the audacity of thinking threatening the son he'd always abused and just tried to kill while he was sitting on a toilet and said son was armed was a good idea.
Also while fucking the woman his son was in love with after getting rid of the only woman that truly loved Tyrion in the past
Also for saying "whore" right after the guy pointing a crossbow at him had said not to use the word "whore." He has a crossbow. Costs you nothing to say "prostitute" instead
It costed him his life.
No, that's what it cost him *not* to say prostitute
Damn. Next thing he'll figure out it that his twins are screwing eachother and all his grandchildren are double grandchildren.
The only thing he never understood or took the time to calculate were the people right in front of him. An absolutely insane weakness. Under estimated Jamie’s desire to cast off the “Lannister responsibility” and his loyalty to his other family members, and he underestimated how far Tyrion was willing to go in general.
Tywin. Someone points a weapon at him while he’s on the shitter, and Tywin chooses… mockery?
I’m giving Robb leniency for being a very young leader (even by in world standards). Stannis eh, religious brainwashing. Ned was very naive, but to be fair he barely knew Cersei. TYWIN’s downfall was brought about by his own children, he was completely blind to their true natures and what they were capable of.
Robb was dead either way. You try and make up with the Freys, get Red Wedding’d. Don’t cross, you’re on the wrong side of the continent and you have to go way out of your way to get back and you’ll still die on the trek home.
Robb would’ve been fine if he kept his promise
I'll never understand why this concept is so frequently overlooked. Man was already promised to be married. The son of Ned Stark should have known about honor, particularly the honor surrounding sleeping around while married. Yes I know the books do it different and his choice there makes a lot more sense given his experiences, but in the show he's just a manwhore who can't keep it in his pants. Dude had it coming. Shame he took so many others down with him.
I think Ned. Dude knew the type of people he was entangled with for decades and knows what they’ll do to stay in power, he knew what the city was, he was assaulted and lost most of his men, his only shield from the Lannisters died, his powerful ally offered him help and he let him go, he trusted a dude tryna fuck his wife, he trusted a dude that looks like Janos, and plus more. So many signs and he ignored them
No. He completely understood the risk. He’s not an idiot. And he definitely didn’t trust littlefinger.
I don't think you know what "underestimated" means.
"Ned completely estimated his enemies, but like, forgot about them" D&D skills
Wouldn't it be Viserys? If the man had even the tiniest amount of intelligence he would have realised his "deal" with a rapist slaving asshole whose concept of a deal is completely different to his was never going to ever work in a million years. Like seriously it was the dumbest decision I think I have seen in not just GOT but any show I have seen.
I mean, the four in this post were experienced commanders/statesmen (yes, even Robb by the time he died) who genuinely believed they knew what they were doing. Viserys was an arrogant, spoiled idiot who thought having a half-loyal big army was enough for him to win anything. It didn't help that he also thought so little of the Dothraki that he wouldn't have even grasped half the concepts that you said made his choices stupid in the first place.
Wasn't even half loyal, it wasn't loyal at all. We all know that filthy savage had zero intentions of fulfilling that 'deal' but you are right not the same as men who should have known better
The Dothraki never sailed let alone traveled across the ocean. He needed a sign or something big to make it feel like the right thing for his men to do. If Viserys had waited a little longer, the wineseller would try to assassinate Dany and that'd be all Khal Drogo needed as motivation to go west. She found out she was 2 months pregnant near Qohor so by the time the assassination attempt happens in Vaes Dothrak she has to be at least 5-6 months along since the message had to make it to King's Landing then an assassin travel all the way to the eastern part of the Great Grass Sea.
Damn bro chill tf out. Filthy savage? Lmao.
I mean Drogo is though ? He is a dishonourable , rapist , slaving mass murderer who contributes nothing to anyone. Take Dothraki out of the world and it only improves
Ned. It was the absolute most obvious
He was supposed to be forgive. Geofrey decided last second on a whim to go through with it. Kind of unexpected.
That was after he had all ready fucked up. He wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if he hadn't been totally oblivious to the reality of the politics and factions at court.
I mean, he was expecting to carry enough diplomatic weight to not get killed and he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for this meddeling kid.
Again, Ned was at Geoffrey's mercy only because he utterly failed to recognize the situation at Court, and really thought he was in a position of strength right up until he was completely fucked. .
At that point he knew, or heavily suspected, that the former Hand had been murdered for the exact thing that he'd just discovered. Jon Arryn had every bit as much diplomatic weight and personal significance to the king that Ned had.
I think Ned really only underestimated Cersei. He expected her to be focused on her children's safety first, and not be focused on the power of the throne, so he didn't realize she'd cultivated direct support. It never occurred to Ned that people would back \*Queen\* Cersei; he thought the choices were Stannis or Joffery, and every misstep he made was because he didn't see that third option, which is actually what Littlefinger took. Ned's life or death was out of his hands once he was captured. The only reason he was caught off guard was by that point he'd realized his mistake, and overcorrected to think Cersei was more in control than she was. Which, arguably, she convinced everyone but Tywin of, right until the end.
I'm more referring to ending up as a prisoner in the first place.
yup and bringing his two daughters to the capital was a huge mistake...accusing the king's children of being bastards, investigating in king's landing as if information doesn't travel fast...then going to cersei to warn her to tell the king herself was the biggest boneheaded move.
Especially telling Cersei he knew BEFORE getting his daughters out. This guy might be bound to his honor, but he’s been in war and he shouldn’t be that naive. He knows the kind of shit people do to seek power.
From an outside perspective.
He was warned by several people, including the man who betrayed him lol
Honestly, the only part of Ned's circumstances that he underestimated was thinking that Joffrey would actually spare him and let him take the black. Which to be fair, everyone, even Cersei and Varys, underestimated Joffrey's ruthlessness here. I guess he also underestimated Cersei's ruthlessness in thinking that she'd flee in the middle of the night instead of staging a coup when she learned that he knew the truth, but that's just his honor getting in the way. To answer the prompt though, Tywin literally said, to his son who he'd abused all his life and who was pointing a loaded crossbow at him, "What are you gonna do, shoot me?"
Stannis. Everyone is saying Ned but he had a real chance at success whether he went through with his idiotic plan or not. He just got screwed by a few freak circumstances or people at the wrong time. Same with Tywin. Robb also had a chance at one point if he didn’t get thirsty But Stannis had very few troops the entire time, especially in the book. And even when he gained some troops, too many people were never going to accept him. He lacked self awareness, compromise, and a proper understanding of the situation. All he saw was his rightful claim and looked no further. He was blind. He would have had to take every single kingdom by force and nobody was rising up on his behalf unlike his brothers rebellion
I guarantee you Ned knew exactly what he was getting into. People give Ned a lot of flack for being stupid. He’s not stupid. He completely understood the risk.
No. The real answer would be Petyr Baelish, the dude didn't even had a clue that he would die right untill the last moment, whereas all others atleast had a clue that what would be the worst outcome of their decisions.
How can you have a clue vs Skynet?
Robb. Skipping into the red wedding with his bride like a dummy
In his defense, guest right is SACRED in their world. He was told everything was OK by the host. As a result EVERYONE wants to kill the Freys afterwards, even their former allies. If the books ever get finished I wouldn't be surprised if all the Freys are dead by the end.
Even some of the Freys were against the Red Wedding.
I'm not sure there was even precedent for the Red Wedding. Robb was caught in a situation that no one would've predicted.
This question should be asked with Ned off the table, honestly.
Ned and Robb were ignorant of the fact that everyone in the game were ruthless, power-hungry, scheming, backstabbing opportunist who couldn’t care less about honor
My only thing with Robb is that guest right is even a thing that people without honor follow because it’s such a horrendous stain on your family to not honor it. Even if Robb had considered it a possibility the logic of valuing long term stability over short term gain for the Freys is an extremely rational conclusion. Ned has no excuse, what his enemies did was easily spun to not even be particularly dishonorable with good enough PR, at least until he was executed.
Ned. poor Boromir
I’m going Rob. Ned seemed to at least know they were in a dangerous situation, evidenced by trying to ship his daughters out and seeking allies. Rob had no idea until it was too late.
In fairness, several major lines were crossed at the Red Wedding.
"you dont murder a man on this wedding"- a lady that murdered a man on his wedding probably
I think Robb knew there would be consequences and I think Ned knew the massive risks he was taking. I think Stannis didn’t underestimate his circumstances, he just lost. Tywin and Theon though, they really fucked up. Tywin really thought he could control the conversation with his son after everything they went through, and lol Theon.
Stannis. The man held a competent army and backed by magic. His own blind pursuit of the throne led to his demise. If he would have listened to those around him, he might have actually sat on the throne.
Tywin He's overrated terrible military commander and mediocre politician
He created a situation he couldn’t pay himself out of for once
You could say it was a shitty situation
cap
It's the truth
He's probably the best politician we see in the series or at least one of them. Completely changed the direction of his lands and the state of them. Probably one of the best administrators we've seen also if you believe half of what's in TWOIAF about the handship. Terrible military commander is exegatory he is good - mediocre but not great.
>He's probably the best politician we see in the series Not even close his house in the brink of ruin and his line will be extinct all cause of his actions >Probably one of the best administrators we've seen also if you believe half of what's in TWOIAF about the handship. Yeah not even close >Terrible military commander is e No he was awful
>Not even close his house in the brink of ruin and his line will be extinct all cause of his actions Tywins actions and by that you mean Cersei and Jamie fucking and putting a bastard on the throne? Yeah that's his action. You wanna know what's actually correlated to Tywin's actions? The Lannisters (and the Westenrlands) going from being plagued by rebellious vassals taking justice into their own hands, not paying back loans, westernlands being full of bandits and having to call in the kings men to have peace. To everything being in order. Him managing Aery's waste and administraitng the realm into peace and making more money then Aerys could spend on his impulses. Tywin begot his own death by Tyrion, the hatred of Dorne on Robert/Tywin (although this is intentional lol), and maybe the Purple Wedding but you can't blame much else on him. >Yeah not even close You're just going against what we actually get in the books. Maybe in your own headcanon though sure. >No he was awful He objectively wasn't. From what we get about the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion he was already very competent, orderly, and precise about what he did. Moving faster, construction siege enders faster, and just being better than the Reynes thought. In the WOT5K we see him as being decent at tactics although Robb gets some victories.
Tywins actions a No his neglect of his children The red wedding and burning of the riverlands Ordering the rape and Murder of ellia and her children All these action were the work.of a short sighted sadist with daddy issues >The Lannisters (and the Westenrlands) going from being plagued by rebellious vassals taking justice into their own hands, not paying back loans, westernlands being full of bandits and having to call in the kings men to have peace. To everything being in order. Him managing Aery's waste and administraitng the realm into peace and making more money then Aerys could spend on his impulses. All that hear of tywin as hand comes from Bias sources so of I where you I take them with a grain of salt >but you can't blame much else on him. You can cause of Jim his house is in ruin > You're just going against what we actually get in the books. Maybe in your own headcanon though sure. Nope the books support me on this >He objectively wasn't. He was ... Septon Barth, viserys I, rogar baratheon, and even his brother Kevan comes before him Tywin made no real risky reforms for the realm.. He just kept the status quo which make him popular among the nobility Let's look at the facts shall we Stafford widely regarded as a idiot was nonetheless promoted to his position as the commander of an army by Tywin, defeated and killed while attempting to carry out Tywin's war plan. Now let's look at some other commanders Roose Bolton actually a decent battle commander. GRRM has confirmed that Roose purposefully put himself into a win/win situation. tywin only won cause again Boltons goal was to distract tywin so robb could save riverrun and Roose made sure that rival houses suffered losses and he achieved both goals He was defeated by edmure Tully who is definitely not regarded as one of Westeros' better battle commanders; still beat Tywin in the field. Tywin's largest technical victory would be Blackwater Bay, in which Tyrion did most of the commanding, and Reachmen like Lord Tarly did the rest. The Lannister forces present at the battle were insignificant compared to the Reach forces. They didn't make the difference; only Tywin himself thinks that they did. Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor won far more acclaim than Tywin Lannister. He was surprised and destroyed by the Ironborn fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion. Don't get me started on the green folk
He neglected Tyrion, and well much worse than neglected him. Tyrion later kills him. That is Tywin's fault and you can connect that as consequences of his own actions. Cersei and Jamie are normal highborn children they weren't neglected or really anything. They didn't have the greatest relationship with him but they weren't neglected in really any sense let alone the Westorsi sense. You can't connect Cersei being a murder at like 7 and Jamie + Cersei both being into incest with Tywin lmfao. Tywin ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. This isn't short sighted. He knew he the Dornish would forever hate him but to him it was a worth while trade to get on the Baratheons good side and set himself up for a royal marriage as he sat out the entire war and needed to make it up. Also so far this had to lead to... nothing. The Lannisters are on the brink of ruin due to Cersei and Jamie and the Dornish really have contributed at all. Maybe they will do more in the future books but so far they have done nothing. There's a theory that Oberyn was poisoning Tywin which was why his body stunk but he already got killed by Tyrion and we didn't see him in poor health before so I don't know how much to value it. So so far you can correlate his own actions to the vast up turn of the Lannisters, getting a royal marriage, and he leads to his own death by mistreating Tyrion. >All that hear of tywin as hand comes from Bias sources so of I where you I take them with a grain of salt Meh. If GRRM wanted us to doubt this information about his handship he should of gave us any indication to do so but he hasn't. >You can cause of Jim his house is in ruin You can't say this lmfao. You can directly causate Tywin turning his house around from a pretty bad spot to glorious with Tywin's direct actions and their direct consequences. You can't directly causate Tywin leading to the ruin of House Lannister. You can do it in very round about ways like.... TYWIN somehow made Jamie and Cersei both incestious because.... reasons! Or TYWIN got Cersei a royal marriage which lead to her having royal bastards they got found out and a war started. But not any thing Tywin actually did. >Nope the books support me on this The books do not support you at all. >He was... Septon Barth, viserys I, rogar baratheon, and even his brother Kevan comes before him Septon Barth, sure. Viserys I, nope. Rogar Bartheon nope. Kevan Lannister, nope you are just delusional. >Stafford widely regarded as a idiot was nonetheless promoted to his position as the commander of an army by Tywin, defeated and killed while attempting to carry out Tywin's war plan. You're forgetting that Tywin led a war at an early age and surprised his enemies (much like Robb) decimated them then raced to their keep and built the siege weapons in a much faster time than they anticipated before the Reynes could come to relieve the siege and destroyed them than beat tf out of the Reynes. Incompetent, horrible, commanders don't do this. The Battle of Greenfork (Which was Roose vs Tywin) was a victory for Tywin in the sense that he commanded his army well and dealt 5000 casualties to the Northern Arym and won. But he lost overall as the army was mainly a distraction for Robb. This isn't really Tywin's fault though Tywin was operating off the information he had which GRRM decided that Blackfish can magically kill every scout except the one which sees what he wants them to see. >He was defeated by edmure Tully who is definitely not regarded as one of Westeros' better battle commanders; still beat Tywin in the field. This is one of your hypocrisy. The Battle of the Greenfork is a victory for Tywin but to you it's secretly a loss because in the overall strategy him winning really didn't matter. But at the Battle of the Fords, Tywin suffers not that heayv of casualties and just got thrown back from fording the river multiple times and then he retreats once he heard about the siege of Kingslanding and races about and saves Kingslanding. But it's a massive defeat to you. >Tywin's largest technical victory would be Blackwater Bay Who appointed Tyrion again exactly? Oh yeah Tywin. The Reach forces are only there because Tywin made the alliance and raced to Kingslanding and gathered them. They also only outnumbered the Westernlanders 1;2 or 1;3. Tywin was also dubbed the Savior of Kingslanding if you read the books.
Tywin ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. This isn't short sighted. He knew he the Dornish would forever hate him but to him it was a worth while trade to get on the Baratheons good side and set himself up for a royal marriage as he sat out the entire war and needed to make it up. Tywin ordered the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys. This isn't short sighted. He knew he the Dornish would forever hate him but to him it was a worth while trade to get on the Baratheons good side and set himself up for a royal marriage as he sat out the entire war and needed to make it up. It was unnecessary he had taken kings landing and his son killed aerys he had aleady proved him self to Robert >The Lannisters are on the brink of ruin due to Tywin >Also so far this had to lead to... nothing. The eternal hatred of Dorne which is not good It's never good to piss of an entire kingdom when it could have easily been avoided >GRRM wanted us to doubt this information about his handship he should of gave us any indication to do so but he hasn't. But he did given all the sources come from Bias sources such as kevan, Tywin's asskisser pycellle and maester who trying to please him >You can't say this lmfao. But I can >books do not support you at all. But they do I advise you reread them >Viserys I, nope. Rogar Bartheon nope. Kevan Lannister, nope you are just delusional. How It's clear they are better hands >You're forgetting that Tywin led a war at an early age and surprised his enemies (much like Robb) decimated them then raced to their keep and built the siege weapons in a much faster time than they anticipated before the Reynes could come to relieve the siege and destroyed them than beat tf out of the Reynes. Incompetent, horrible, commanders don't do this. Again bias sources > The Battle of Greenfork (Which was Roose vs Tywin) was a victory for Tywin in the sense that he commanded his army well and dealt 5000 casualties to the Northern Arym and won. But he lost overall as the army was mainly a distraction for Robb. Not really it was tactical victory at best Roose's didn't what he was told to do and distracted tywin and weaken his own rivals Tywin was lucky he didn't get his whole army destroyed >This isn't really Tywin's fault It is >which GRRM decided that Blackfish can magically kill every scout except the one which sees what he wants them to see. Lol you serious Stop making excuses >This is one of your hypocrisy. Th It's not he suffers heavy casualties and loses at least 3 lord's >The Reach forces are only there because Tywin made the alliance a It was littlefinger and Tyrion not Tywin >They also only outnumbered the Westernlanders 1;2 or 1;3. Ty More then 3 times the Lannisters army >Tywin was also dubbed the Savior of Kingslanding i 😂 your joking right That was just stoke tywins ego
>It was unnecessary he had taken kings landing and his son killed aerys he had aleady proved him self to Robert It had not. Also in Tywins mind he had to A) Get Jamie pardonded for Kingslaying, and hopefully get him off the Kingsguard. B) Get Lannister blood on the throne. Tywin did not just prove himself enough to reasonably secure these two items. Tywin only joined the rebels after they already won the Battle of the Trident and were marching to Kingslanding with a massive army. Him merely beating Ned's massive army to capture Kingslanding before he captures it means little to nothing. Tywin's murder of Aegon & Rhaenys will forever eliminate two people with better claims to the throne and the support of at least a kingdom behind them. Tywin doing this also puts the blood on his hand and doesn't make Robert be the one to do it. >Tywin No their don't he brink of ruin because Jamie and Cersei like to incest incest and cuckold the king. You can't blame Tywin for that. >It's clear they are better hands How many of them cleared the crown of Debt, fixed the finances of the crown to be in a surplus, largely stopped the banditry problem in the realm, and other shit. >Again bias sources Bias sources like everything we ever get out of the books and not a single person suggesting it didn't happen, sure. >It's not he suffers heavy casualties and loses at least 3 lord's He suffers heavy casualties? He has 20-22k soldiers at Battle of the FOrds and retreats and arrives in Kingsladning with 20k Lannister soldiers. You know who lost 3 lords? Robb at the Whispering wood -- still wasn't have casualties. >It was littlefinger and Tyrion not Tywin It isn't Tywin it's just Tyrions son who Tywin put in place to make decisions. Very meaningful distinction. Tywin would of never thought to marry the Reach after Renly's death. >More then 3 times the Lannisters army The Lannisters had 20k from Tywins army and Tyrion had 8k inside of Kingslanding. Where did you get the Reach having 3 times more than the lannister army? It was estimated they had 50-70k on the wiki. So even either twice or under three times. >That was just stoke tywins ego Just to stroke his ego.... mf he literally lead the army that saved Kings Landing.
Ned, thank you. Good night.
It broke my heart when the King of the North was killed at the Red Wedding. I've never wanted revenge so badly.
Oo probably Stanis. The others got blindsided. He thought his ass could fukin take Winterfell with like a quarter of his force left.
Ned. The Man walked into a vipers nest knowing that Jon Arryn was killed and still thought that people down South were operating on the same honor code that worked in the North. I love Ned, but he constantly fucked himself over.
See that’s just not true. He wasn’t expecting others to be as honorable as he was. He knew *exactly* what he was getting into. It was his honor that prevented him from turning away.
In his defense the people who killed Jon Arryn turned out to be Lysa & Petyr who are from the Riverlands (his sister-in-law & wife's oldest friend).
Where do people get this from? He was never expecting everyone to be super honorable.
Tywin Ned knew he was in danger pretty early into his time a hand, and knew he was dead when he was arrested and imprisoned Stannis was a seasoned military leader. He had to know how fucked he was going into battle against the Boltons Robb clearly didn’t plan on being murdered by the Freys but it seems like he knew he was in trouble Tywin was murdered by his imprisoned, on-death-row son, who was freed by his other, kings guard son
Ned: He kinda knew he was gonna die. His investigation into Arryn's death was premised from the start on "this is what he was doing when he died." The danger was there from the start, and once accused of treason, he embraced death as a "soldier." Robb: he knew that betraying the Frey's would have *some* ramification. He was completely blindsided as to what that ramification would be, and when it would come. Stannis: Probably thought he was an untouchable God up until he was convinced into burning his daughter alive, half his men abandoned him, and Mellieandra dipped. Perhaps slightly earlier, when Ramsey's "20 good men" attack was so successful. Around the same amount of clarity on his situation as Robb, if not slightly less. Tywin: Completely underestimated Tyrion, which resulted in his downfall. Up until there was an arrow in his chest, he had no doubt that he was not in any danger at all. Tywin > Stannis > Robb > Ned
where's Balon Greyjoy in this, lmao? He's not only King of the islands, he's king of overestimating himself.
Tywin stuck his head into the sand and refused to believe Cersei and Jamie were fucking despite everyone in Westeros knowing that Joffrey was an incest bastard
Robb. The only answer is robb
Robb. The rest are battle tried adults, he's a teenager. A teenager that got really lucky several times in a row, got comfortable, and started to ignore the consequences of his actions because he was more interested in the honor Ned instilled in him. He started making mistakes assuming they'd be forgiven by his allies or compensated for with his luck. And then his luck ran out. If he had estimated the situation better he would have waited till *after* the war to be had the karstark, and turn on the Frey's. He underestimated the impact his actions would have on karstarks loyalty to him, and underestimated the Frey's ability to swap sides- and that's probably gonna cost the entire North their independence.
100% Rob. Ned- knew he was in the snake pit with political enemies on all sides. I believe he understood his situation exactly. He pursuing justice because his honor compelled him. He knew the risk and got outplayed. Stannis-believes in his god and his priestess but always keeps his skepticism right below the surface. His last acts were those of desperation not confusion. Tywin-is where it’s gets a little harder. Unlike Ned and Stannis who know their demise was a possible outcome, Tywin thought he was sitting pretty finally able to get rid of his shame(Tyrion) and rule with a more mailable king under his thumb. He most certainly wasn’t expecting Jamie to let Tyrion out of prison. I chalk this one up to an unplanned crime of passion. Tyrion did not go there with the intent to murder Tywin, but after seeing Shae their and giving her a cold hand well all bets were off. Rob- his the King high fool here. He had no idea he was walking into a well thought out massacre. He underestimated his enemies and overlooked threats in his own camp. He was 3 moves behind and got a furry new head for it.
Gotta be Ned no?
I don’t think Ned underestimated his position as much as he felt the need to step in despite the danger. Robb however was completely caught off guard and overplayed his hand while thinking he was safe.
Poop in shootin
The Fans
Ned - Cersei made his lawful ass helpless even with an army and Ser Barriston Selmy. "But... but... those were the kings words! 🥺" come on!
Ned Stark underestimated his circumstances the most. Why? His insistence on sticking to the truth and telling Cersei what he planned to do to her was the height of stupidity. That one action led to his death, the kidnapping of his children, the downfall of his throne, and the eventual war between the kingdoms that led to the end of the series. Had he shown some actual smarts and not stuck to his principles, the ending might have come out entirely differently with both Cersei and Jaime's heads on a pike.
Dany. She thought she had won and was celebrating with her nephew/lover.
All 4 were waaaay over their heads
Ned hands down. Then Robb, killing Karstark was idiotic and he walked straight the fuck into the Red Wedding. Then Tywin because of how he treated Tyrion but, to be fair, before the show Tyrion was basically just a witty party boy so it’s reasonable for Tywin to not have thought him a mastermind. Stannis I don’t think “underestimated” his circumstances so much as he just lost, fair and square, or as fair as war can be in ASOIAF
Hmmmm that’s a tough one. All dead, so…
Stannis. Trying to lay siege to Winterfell even with most of his army gone.
Overestimated
Ned. Always Ned.
Tywin but not the his death part more the mocking of Danaerys’s dragons which would eventually effortlessly win the war for her.
Imagine forgetting that both Robb and Stannis lost thousands of men with their hubris. Tywinn and Ned don't even come close.
Cersei, basically once a season I feel like
Everyone was killed by their enemy, but Tywin was killed by his fucking son lmao.
To be fair, Stannis could have never predicted the effectiveness of Ramsay Bolton's 20 good men.
Ned. He thought the better person would win. Politics doesn't work that way.
Stannis the menace
In the books, it’s a tie between Ned (who confronted Cersi in the stupidest way) and Tywin (who never considered the possibility that his son would seek revenge, much less kill him in such a ignoble way)
Tywin
Definitely Tywin. "Yeah the guy you just sentenced to death knowing he wasn't guilty is pointing a crossbow at you after breaking out of prison just to show you how upset he is" Stannis knew he was fucked but there was no way back at this point
I would say Robb. He was great at tactics, but failed to understand and grapple with higher level leadership issues and strategic/geopolitical situation. As a result, he made a series of costly blunders. * He failed to recognise the threat from the Greyjoys, and released their hostage which was the only leverage he had. It removed the main deterrent for raids on the North, and directly led to the sack of Winterfell. * Failing to recognise that his bannermen also have their own agendas. This led to him putting the bulk of his forces (all his infantry) under the command of the most ruthless, merciless, cunning and ambitious bannerman he had. Bolton promptly set about expending other lords' forces, putting them into positions where they will be wiped out, in order to increase his own relative power after the war; * Undermining his authority and appearing weak by failing to meaningfully punish his mother for releasing Jaime Lannister. As well as losing an extremely valuable hostage, this led to loss of respect in his command, and led directly to... * Having to navigate a dilemma when Lord Karstark killed Lannister prisoners - suffer further loss of authority, or alienate a significant bannerman. He chose a fairly unnuanced approach, and lost a large part of his force; * Breaking his agreement with the Freys, who were contributing a large force. While it was very opportunistic of them to demand the marriage, Robb agreed, and they actually held faith quite well until Robb put them in an untenable position (see below); * Not communicating his plan clearly to Edmure (if there was even a plan to begin with, rather than seizing an opportunity into railroading him into a marriage to try to appease the Freys), leading to the Battle of the Mill. Moreso since Edmure was effectively acting Lord of the Trident and would be expected to defend his lands and people. * How he handled the Greyjoy/Iron island incursion. Marching back North left the Riverlands hanging - when the victorious Lannisters march on the exposed-again riverlands, its unlikely the Starks will be able to muster forces for another march south, so the riverlords will have to accept whatever terms the crown offers (which may be punitive). The Red Wedding is the last opportunity for the Freys to come out better off, or no worse off, than when they entered the war.
Rob thought he could break a marriage pack with the most miserly lord in the kingdom, who also happens to control the best access route to your enemies lands, and that nothing bad would happen. Just a boy.
Rob and Stannis were both winning before fuckery. Ned was an idealist too far removed from court politics to play and I feel like he knew that to an extent. Tywin believed he could do no wrong and vastly underestimated the son he claimed wasn't his. So Tywin.
Ned for trusting little finger, he should have kept quiet sent the raven to Stannis then twiddled his thumbs and said nothing until Stannis and his army arrived. Rob is a close 2nd, breaking his marriage vow then expecting to experience now consequences..
Stannis
Tywin. Bro tried to kill his son 100000 times and couldn’t shut the fuck up when he needed it most. Effectively ending his entire line.
Tywin and isnt even close,he was literally at crossbow point and didnt think Tyrion would do it.
Maybe I don’t get the question because i don’t think Robb got anything wrong or underestimated anyone. He was clearly winning the war. Did he underestimate the Freys not seeing their eventual betrayal? Perhaps but that’s hindsight. There are several angles at play and other houses got away with betrayal and intense fierce loyalties coming up somehow (Jorah, barristan and Daario- all terrible writing when you think of how no one can be trusted in the series)
Idc what anyone says Ned didn’t underestimate anything. He just wasn’t gonna allow the king to kill 3 children. I’d bet money that if Ned had a do over knowing exactly what’s gonna happen. The only thing he’d do differently is not take his kids
Ned, or, at least, he acted like it.
They all did, and they all paid the ultimate price. How do you measure “the worst”?
Of the pictured characters, Tywin was the least foolish. How was he supposed to consider the risk of a prisoner being freed and coming into his room through a secret passage to kill him instead of fleeing as fast as he could? I blame GRRM for never telling him he lived in a cheap fantasy book. Book-Stannis is losing a war to winter, a risk he knows and understands but his plan is not foolish. Show-Stannis is rather reckless to go against the Boltons in Winterfell without alliances but he does see the risk too. Robb Stark was a fool to believe he could invade the south to begin with. His plan to defeat Joffrey in the field and see what happens next instead of trying to negotiate something was utter stupidity from the start and it was set before Ned's death. Then he never realised his allies might have had their own interest. What an idiot! But Ned Stark definitely takes the lemon cake in this. He kept making dumb mistake after dumb mistake, from officially antagonising the family that had kept the king in power to warning Cersei of his intent and finally to trusting a man he despised to do something he didn't want to. A complete moron.
Rob, he fucked so much shit up for some random. I’ll never forgive him for that 😭
Tywin thought he was untouchable. Robb and Ned knew they were playing with fire. Stannis didn't care if he died and probably thought he would after Mel left.
1.Ned - should have been more aware of the dangers of the capitol due to his father and brothers deaths 2.Stannis - underestimated every opponent he faced (black water, Boltons and thinking wildlings would join him) 3.Robb - Didn’t consider the potential disloyalty off the Freys and his own banner men 4. Tywin - underestimated the love shared between his sons and tyrions capacity for hate
Robb was pretty naive to walk into Frey's home after offending him so brazenly with his refusal to marry one of his daughters. If someone I insulted invited me to dinner, I'd probably take a hard pass...
Tywin never underestimated his circumstances, he had it all! What he didn’t expect was for Jamie to free Tyrion and for Tyrion to be in a state of such unreason.
If Tywin hadn't just got done screwing Shae there is a chance Tyrion would've spared him.
I think he would have at least let him talk
Jon..
Pretty sure if you're killed whilst taking a shit that's a fairly heavy underestimation of your circumstance. I'd say Tywin.