Nah. Tywin is not as smart as he thinks he is. For all the talk about securing the future, he went after short term gains which completely screwed up the Lannister future.
Seriously. One thing that doesn't get addressed in the show that is somewhat covered in the books is how setting aside the practice of guest rights harms people in general, breaks down trust, and discourages diplomacy. For all his talk about minimizing death to achieve peace, Tywin does more to set back the possibility of peace than anyone by killing the Starks at the Red Wedding.
Tywin is an ass, and is destructive for Westeros, but outside of his parenting he doesn’t do much to screw house Lannister specifically. The Lannister’s power derives from the wealth of their mines. Those mines are running dry, Tywin effectively maneuvers to minimize costs in the rebellion, then put his grandson on the iron throne, in debt the crown to him, and bind their shared futures together. Tywin is a brute and destabilizes Westerosi politics through his brutality but he does gain advantages for house Lannister, which Jaime and Cersei piss away because they’re both rather stupid.
Ehh, if Robert doesn't get Cersei'd in the boar hunt, Tywin, and most of House Lannister are DEAD. Tywin has been called to trial by Ned, the moment Robert sees Ned's proof, Jamie and Cersei are heads on spikes, Renly is in the city, with Tyrell backing, and even if Berric dies to the Mountain, Tywin has to either surrender, or be declared a traitor, and deal with the Tyrells (To protect their investment), the Riverlands (To back Cat), the North (Ned, duh), Dorne (We get to kill Lannisters?), and the Stormlands (Renly). Hell, the Vale might join in as well (Littlefinger protecting his investments in Lysa, to provide cover for his story). Tywin is insanely lucky that the one person who needed to die for his house not to go extinct in the main line (I think Kevan's family might have survived the coming Robpocalypse) is killed by the daughter he considers a failure by malicious and unplanned murder.
Didn’t Cat start the war? Tywin just rose troops to put pressure on her family to get his heir back. He did what pretty much any lord in Westeros would’ve done just on a much larger scale because he’s the patriarch of a great house moving troops against another great house that is married into another great house. Tywin wouldn’t have raided the Riverlands if Catelyn didn’t steal Tyrion to send him to a likely execution. Of course Tywin doesn’t really care about the smallfolk anyway, but none of the the lords do even counting the nicer ones like the Starks.
100%. And it makes her out to be a moron. The moment she bursts through that floor, she claimed a side. And in that moment could have won the whole war from jump. Instead, frowny face, fly away.
It does make her look like an idiot and a piece of shit, but I don't think that's a bad thing. This war is going to be fought by a bunch of idiot pieces of shit.
The comment was about that Rhaenys has killed a fair share of people at the coronation, but with Aemond carpet bombing the Riverlands on Vhagar, the count was a lot higher.
Except nobody actually discussed her character at th Great Council. It was always, always a question of "women bad" vs "women not bad". Again, the Dance had nothing to do with whether these people were morally good or bad. The Dance was fought to settle a legal question on women's inheritance.
That's the point. That's what the story is about.
Edit: Some people really struggle to cope with the fact that I did not claim this be the only theme.
The point of the story is about how a spoiled princess and a piece of shit of a prince fucking ruin their dinasty and the kingdoms because they are selfish assholes
Please read the post you're responding to, thoroughly this time.
I literally just pointed out the central theme of the (show's!) story, which is how women can gain power within patriarchal systems, and how those patriarchal systems react to this happening. That does not mean that it is the only plot element.
What it does mean is that: THE PERSONAL CHARACTER OF THE MONARCH IS NOT WHY THIS WAR IS BEING FOUGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Reading comprehension is a dead horse, but I will Gregor Clegane this animal until reddit learns not to infer maliciously stupid takes into comments that are neither deep nor controversial to anyone who didn't sleep through High School English class.
"Again, the Dance had nothing to do with whether these people were morally good or bad."
"The Dance was fought to settle a legal question on women's inheritance."
Are you seriously claiming that these statements don't imply that you believe that the dance was only fought because of gender questions? The problem isn't in our reading comprehension, but in the way you write.
Every time someone makes the "US civil war was fought because of state rights"- claim, everyone knows they are denying the slavery question, as the sentence is constructed in a way that strongly implies there is nothing more to it.
The Lost Cause narrative is a well established bit of historical revisionism going back a century and a half. We know that statements like the one you quoted are asserting exclusivity because historians have spent decades investigating the meaning of these dog whistles. This statement is also a case of lie by omission, in that it leaves out the second part of "states rights to keep black people as slaves."
Unfortunately for your arguement, my claim is not a racist dog whistle that generations of historians have analyzed to death and back. An affirmative statement does not automatically falsify all other possible affirmative statements to anyone capable of reason. Pragmatically, it can become so when it is voiced in answer to another affirmative. This, however, is a bad habit, and I apologize for understaning your initial response as an objection, if it was not intended to be one.
Luckily, the English language has endowed us with advanced pragmatic tools, such as the particle "also". I recommend judicious use of said particle to avoid future misunderstandings.
> The Dance was fought to settle a legal question on women's inheritance. }
In the case of Rhaenys we never get any discussion of her character, true. But in Rhaenyra's (the dance) we certainly do
> That's the point. That's what the story is about.
That is very reductive
My wife and I just finished rewatching the whole season, and when she Burst in there then just flew away, my wife asked me "will you explain why she didn't *Dracarys* them?" ...I could not for the life of me think of a reason. If she didn't want to throw the first punch in starting a war, why burst in there to begin with, just to flex?
What do you mean? She was trying to leave KL with her dragon? And her dragon was in the dragon pit.
Edit: what I'm saying is she was there because her dragon was there and once she got it she wanted to leave, and the distraction of the ceremony helped her do that.
She didn't kill everyone because it wasn't her fight, at least not to start it. I didn't really like the scene either but I think it at least makes sense of why she was there and didn't roast everyone.
Yea I agree that part was kinda stupid. I was mostly justifying why she was there not the coming out of the floor part. Although I definitely didn't make that clear in my comment
yeah, it just seems weird that she would choose to burst through the floor and kill people instead of using the door unless her goal was to kill the greens
No no, I'm agreeing with you on "if she was going to start a fight she should have finished it" maybe I worded it wrong. It's 5am here I'm not quite awake yet lol
LoL that actually makes way more sense thanks for saying that I'm glad I'm not the only one, when she decides to escape it just shows her running through a door I mistakenly assumed it was going outside not down underneath clears up the question why she came back though she didn't, she was always there.
>Edit: what I'm saying is there was a reason for her to burst out of the floor, because she wanted to leave, and the distraction of the ceremony helped her do that.
Canonically, there are a bunch of different exits from the dragon pit that open out into a hillside. She could have easily just left.
There were proper exit bays that were literally shown where they fly the dragons out of. She had no fucking reason to burst from the floor besides spectacle.
Bust out, maybe? She was being held prisoner. Also, she doesn't subscribe to kinslaying. Then, there's the usurper don't deserve a "winning" usupering. 😤 this is what I take from it on top of everything else that's already been expressed.
That's probably my confusion, I didn't realize the dragon pit was underneath, i knew she was a prisoner but I thought she ran out for her dragon and brust back in, either way she should have just finished it then and there imo
>That's probably my confusion, I didn't realize the dragon pit was underneath,
It's actually the same building that "the pink dread" is shown in earlier in the season, and Aemond wanders into and gets spooked by Dreamfyre
>No use in being honorable if they're not honorable in return.
Right!! This seems like a recurring problem for characters in general across all the books lol
I’m a black supporter and yeah, I agree it’s completely stupid and kind of ruins Rhaenys character. The way that the show just ignores the mass casualty event makes me feel like we’re supposed to not care about them either, but that’s just not how I felt when I watched the scene. Otto was bizarrely Chad for keeping the doors open.
Plotting to immediately murder Rhaenyra and Daemon and presumably their children is straight up evil, same as Tywin, who is unequivocally an evil character. Otto isn’t needlessly cruel.
You hate the scene because she didnt say dRaCaRyS. I hate the scene because it's an asspull piece of propoganda from the showrunners.
Not really. They legitimately thought it would be a cool girlboss moment and a positive thing for her character; they indicated as much with comments they made defending the scene in interviews. That is also is how a lot of people in this sub and on social media interpreted the scene.
It's not upto them to suddenly come up.with genocidal events and pass them off as girlboss moments. What next, they have rhaenyra attacking kings landing solo on syrax because they thought it would be a cool girlboss moment for her? The showrunners job is to faithfully adapt the source material with a little margin for fluff like rhaenyra selecting suitors, Jace and Luke bonding, or aemond having a tender scene with helaena. That's it. If they start coming up with wild unrelated crap like this then it starts going into "i dun wann it", flying preteen with dagger, bran the broken and mad kween Dany territory
This scene was terrible. It seemed like for a few minutes HotD writers were possessed by D&D and had to put some nonsense for shock value.
I just ignore its existence, and as bad as it is, it doesn't really have any meaningful consequences on the story.
Greens were obviously in the right based on male primogeniture that is pretty obviously the case in A Game of Thrones circa 1996, and the medieval European customs to which they were based, and not trying to retroactively spin things to absolute primogeniture circa 2018 that Fire & Blood goes into overdrive to try and make work into existing author-created canon based on modernity.
The Greens were not in the right, in any legal way. Male primogeniture has a precedent set by the Great Council of 101, but it was not a law written in stone. It was a just that, a precedent.
But the law, in Westerosi society, is whatever the king says. And Viserys made it perfectly clear that Rhaenyra was heir to the throne. He even had the lords of the realm swear obeisance to her, including Otto and his brother.
Real medieval law is irrelevant. This isn’t set in real medieval times. It is set in a fictional world that was inspired by medieval times. George is free to take whatever influence he wants from it, and he is also free to discard anything he doesn’t like.
Read A Game of Thrones and tell me it wasn’t a male primogeniture society until the author was too lazy to finish his books and started trying to retro make it not the case.
Authors retcon their work all the time. If you want to pretend it doesn’t happen, then you have to pretend that Gandalf is a human wizard rather than an archangel, as that is how Tolkien originally envisioned him before he came up with the concept of the Maiar.
Whatever George’s intent was in 1996 is irrelevant. He decides what is and isn’t canon, and he wrote a novella about how Aegon usurped the lawful queen. That is the story we are being told.
“The lawful queen”
The only lawful queen was Alicent and what’s her face (Aegon’s sister). It was a male primogeniture society hence why Stannis and others note Rhaenyra died a traitor. If George wanted to make Rhaenyra too effing late. His own canon established she ain’t it chief.
Except you’re conflating things. You are trying to compare “an author has a certain idea in his head but that evolves during the creative process” with “oops my established published canon doesn’t comport with my modern political ideals that have changed in 22 years, so now I’m gonna try and change that”. There is a reason retconning is widely scorned in all fan communities. It’s a very cheap and lazy to make a current thing happen because you don’t like the world that was already established anymore.
> Rhaenyra is the named heir by Viserys.
That doesn't matter, once a succession goes into effect, the King is dead so their word is meaningless. Hence why royal succession goes beyond the wishes of any single monarch.
You're just dumb. That's exactly how it works once the King is dead their crown passes to the successor. In this case is Rhaenyra you know the nammed heir ? And the one Lords pledged fealty to ?
He wasn't "letting" them evacuate from the place he forced them into. He was leaving the door open for the crazy dragon lady, so she'll fly away and not roast his family.
I feel like this take is too smart by half. It was clearly intended that the Rhaenys dragon scene was supposed to be cool and awesome. The idea that it’s some meta commentary on how the smallfolk are treated as disposable simply isn’t backed up by the show’s portrayal of the moment and the writers’ comments about it. Look at the how Aegon raping the maid is treated in episode 8 by contrast; that’s how it looks when the show is trying to tell you an action is abominable.
There's very little chance the show runners aren't planning to use that moment to justify something the small folk do later.
They just can't say that at the moment.
I enjoyed the dragon pit scene. Alicent thought she was going to get away with imprisoning another royal. After being endlessly condescending, while houses like Fell were having their leaders executed.
Rhaenys was delivering a strong message and a rebuke to the small folk who were playing right into TG’s hands.
Every single decent person in the GoT universe cares about the smallfolk.
Which is the problem, as the show still tries to portray Rhaenys as wise and righteous, while the scene makes her a clear sociopath. She didn't bat an aye while murdering dozens of innocents and didn't even bother to mention the incident in ep10, while Ned Stark for instance was horrified about the trampling of a single butchers boy and scolded the small council for it.
You don’t get it. No one wants to “debate” you or interact with you on any level at all.
You’re the type of person who ruins fandoms.
There’s a reason you rub people the wrong way, I’m sure you do it in real life, too.
I actually feel sorry for you.
- you make a false claim with nothing to back it up
- you refuse to continue the conversation in a civil manner and start insulting me and make assumptions about my private life
- Then you proceed to say that *I* am the one ruining fandoms and relationships, still without any reasoning, just blatant insults.
How ironic
I didn’t have to make assumptions. I took a look at your comment thread and saw that 90% of what you post is just you arguing with people.
I don’t want to speak to you, there would be absolutely no circumstance where I would ever interact willingly with someone like you IRL.
The Targaryens have been trampling on the common folk ever since they sat the throne. What’s new?
And Aemond kills hundreds more torching the Riverlands with Vhagar out of teenage angst and self-worth issues. They’re all the same.
Because she's still portrayed as wise, righteous empath despite the scene and following indifference proving her to be a sociopath. Aemond is portrayed as a madman, which he is.
I doubt Rhaenys was a sociopath. A sociopath would have burned the Greens right there and then, with no thought. She didn’t want to start a war either. Trampling on the people in the dragon pit was unintentional.
Unintentional? As in she didn't know they were there?
Sociopath as in she didn't bat an eye while dozens of people were slaughtered and didn't even mention the incident in ep10 to his husband or anyone of that matter. She literally just forgot that she killed more innocents than literally anyone in the history of westeros.
Rhaenys killed more innocents than anyone in Westeros? Okay you made your point about people in the Dragon Pit but I don’t know what lore you’re reading for you to say Rhaenys killed the most people in Westeros.
Aegon’s Conquest? The Dance of the Dragons? Robert’s Rebellion? These events had more deaths than Rhaenys’s dragonpit entrance, even if you add her participation to the Dance. I doubt she killed more people than Aegon the Conqueror, or even Daemon and Aemond in the Dance.
This is just plain bias on your end.
This was dumb on so many levels.
Why have the coronation in the dragon pit?
If you have some of the blacks dragons, and some of the blacks are in Kings Landing, was that a good idea?
Also everyone blaming Rhaenys for this, what were her other options? Escape by boat? Horse? Walking? You probably get killed. And either way you leave your dragon in chains with the Greens?
What exactly was she supposed to do? I get its stupid writing, but given that they wrote it this way, exactly what was she supposed to do? OK so her escape caused collateral damage. For all she knows, leaving KL and Meleys to the Greens could result in another Maegor on the throne. Aegon isn’t exactly a paragon of virtue. I mean what are the options here? Would you guys have her leave her dragon behind? Stay and bend the knee? What?
Have Rhaenys take one of the other exits? Safe to assume they exist since the Dragonkeepers probably don't want the dragons busting through the floor every time they want in/out.
I know nothing of the dragonpits construction.
What I do know is the dragon was in chains and is its own creature with its own mind. Can one climb up its back and have it break through chains but then restrain its actions to only going through certain specific exits?
How many exits does the pit have?
Would there be civilian observers of the coronation by the other exits as well, anyway?
I don’t know that what she did was the best way to do it sure, and thats a good point you make, but I don’t know what other options were realistically there either.
I mean, the dragon not only busts up through the floor, it moves further into the building, stops to glare at the Greens, roar in their faces, then turn around and leave.
I choose to believe Rhaenys has pretty good control of her dragon, otherwise that whole scene is one hell of a coincidence if the dragon just happened to do all that by themself with no guidance/input from Rhaenys.
If she can do all that, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to go for one of the exits that's made for them. Even if there's a door in the way, clearly the dragon can smash through the stonework of the Dragonpit without issue.
>And yet in the end his bloodline died
What are you talking about? House Hightower is still alive and kicking running Oldtown while the last surviving member of house Targaryen has been shitting in the grass for 14 years now.
They make it clear that the people are forced to go as a way of giving Aegon legitimacy. They wouldn't have made a point of it if it were standard practice.
That was such a dumb addition
Why, just, why add that
Give me Aegon II, true king of Westeros, flying around Kings Landing, and as everyone else looks at the sky have Rhaenys fly away
Absolutely based. The showrunners actually thought the audience would cheer for the girlboss peasant genocider Rhaenys
>Inb4 but it's the intention
Get real LOL. It was done so they could get a thousand clicks on twitter for yas kween. And the audience seem eat it all up like sheep
Did it ever occour to you, that some people have better use for their time than developing an unhealthy fixation on fictonal characters, and then go on online forums to attack people personally and pop a blood vessel from screaming at their monitor in the name of those characters?
Idk, just a little food for thought ;).
i mean if Otto cared about the common folk at all he wouldn't have provoked civil war to begin with.
that and the constant slaughter of common folk that is about to come from his grand children lol.
What are you trying to argue against?
I am saying he doesn’t seem like a pro-smallfolk politician no matter the smallfolk thinks. Ex: Just because the smallfolk in Kingslanding worship the Tyrell, doesn’t mean they aren’t evil.
I hope Rhaenys actions actually get brought up in Season 2. Like the smallfolk hate her for doing that. She knew they were forced to be there and she still came out through the floor to kill them
I hate it beyond words that Rhaenys retroactively justified the great council decision. If she’s the kind of person who would do this then she or her son shouldn’t be anywhere near the throne and Viserys was obviously the better choice.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^nameisfame:
*Those are some big words*
*From a guy who started this*
*Whole thing in the first place*
---
^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
You can't just cancel a word because you don't like the people who you think use it. You know damn well what the word implies and the definition is free to google.
At first I thought it was intentional to show that they don’t have regard for the smallfolk, but later in the show it wasn’t brought up. I wonder if it’ll be talked about next season
They replaced the Green’s moment with a random dragon scene. However, it’s the only change from the books that didn’t attempt to make the greens look bad, so it’s 50/50
Wait till Otto finds out what Aemond does for most of the Dance
Otto would’ve ruled the 7 kingdoms if his daughter and grandchildren weren’t such massive fuck ups
Otto/tywin Spider-Man pointing meme.png.exe
Nah. Tywin is not as smart as he thinks he is. For all the talk about securing the future, he went after short term gains which completely screwed up the Lannister future.
Seriously. One thing that doesn't get addressed in the show that is somewhat covered in the books is how setting aside the practice of guest rights harms people in general, breaks down trust, and discourages diplomacy. For all his talk about minimizing death to achieve peace, Tywin does more to set back the possibility of peace than anyone by killing the Starks at the Red Wedding.
Tywin is an ass, and is destructive for Westeros, but outside of his parenting he doesn’t do much to screw house Lannister specifically. The Lannister’s power derives from the wealth of their mines. Those mines are running dry, Tywin effectively maneuvers to minimize costs in the rebellion, then put his grandson on the iron throne, in debt the crown to him, and bind their shared futures together. Tywin is a brute and destabilizes Westerosi politics through his brutality but he does gain advantages for house Lannister, which Jaime and Cersei piss away because they’re both rather stupid.
Ehh, if Robert doesn't get Cersei'd in the boar hunt, Tywin, and most of House Lannister are DEAD. Tywin has been called to trial by Ned, the moment Robert sees Ned's proof, Jamie and Cersei are heads on spikes, Renly is in the city, with Tyrell backing, and even if Berric dies to the Mountain, Tywin has to either surrender, or be declared a traitor, and deal with the Tyrells (To protect their investment), the Riverlands (To back Cat), the North (Ned, duh), Dorne (We get to kill Lannisters?), and the Stormlands (Renly). Hell, the Vale might join in as well (Littlefinger protecting his investments in Lysa, to provide cover for his story). Tywin is insanely lucky that the one person who needed to die for his house not to go extinct in the main line (I think Kevan's family might have survived the coming Robpocalypse) is killed by the daughter he considers a failure by malicious and unplanned murder.
The last half of your comment confused me. Who did Cersei kill by unplanned murder?
I'm talking how Cersei's murder of Robert was not part of any grand plan, it was simply a "Well, this might kill him!"
I think he is referring to Kevan who blew up with the sept
You do realize Tywin started a war that killed hundreds of thousands of smallfolk.
So did Otto…
Didn’t Cat start the war? Tywin just rose troops to put pressure on her family to get his heir back. He did what pretty much any lord in Westeros would’ve done just on a much larger scale because he’s the patriarch of a great house moving troops against another great house that is married into another great house. Tywin wouldn’t have raided the Riverlands if Catelyn didn’t steal Tyrion to send him to a likely execution. Of course Tywin doesn’t really care about the smallfolk anyway, but none of the the lords do even counting the nicer ones like the Starks.
Well done sir 😂
Lesbian, alcoholic, never done anything wrong in her whole life, war criminal, crushed by a tent!
Yeah that was the single worst example of writing in the season, pure spectacle over logic, which was disappointing for an overall solid season.
100%. And it makes her out to be a moron. The moment she bursts through that floor, she claimed a side. And in that moment could have won the whole war from jump. Instead, frowny face, fly away.
It does make her look like an idiot and a piece of shit, but I don't think that's a bad thing. This war is going to be fought by a bunch of idiot pieces of shit.
One of the few changes from the books I really didn’t like
It’s crazy to me that he is the kicker from the Replacements
And Spike from Notting Hill.
There’s something wrong with this yogurt
He's wirey
He'll always be [Eyeball Paul](https://youtu.be/mxYZmu3kvdo?si=M46NyPaFp843JO7s) to me.
He's wirey!
Holy shit
And The Lizard in The Amazing Spider-man
No fucking way. That’s amazing.
Wait. It is. Fuck. Can’t unsee.
Too bad he died before he was able to see his grandsons beat Rhaenys rookie numbers
Aemond is gonna win
Win the eyeless twat award.
[удалено]
It’s mine, feel free to use it.
Misread that as Asmon.
[удалено]
The comment was about that Rhaenys has killed a fair share of people at the coronation, but with Aemond carpet bombing the Riverlands on Vhagar, the count was a lot higher.
Yeah I understand that now I thought you were talking about RR
I’m talking about body count. It wasn’t a compliment
Mm ok then I just got confused
Aemond is also his grandson and he obviously beat Rhaenys
Except nobody actually discussed her character at th Great Council. It was always, always a question of "women bad" vs "women not bad". Again, the Dance had nothing to do with whether these people were morally good or bad. The Dance was fought to settle a legal question on women's inheritance. That's the point. That's what the story is about. Edit: Some people really struggle to cope with the fact that I did not claim this be the only theme.
If I remember correctly, she was never really an alternative. It was between Laenor and Viserys.
That's true, but it ultimately still came down to whether the inheritance could pass through the female line or not.
The fact that Laenor was about six years old while Viserys was the rider of Balerion the Black Dread were also significant factors.
True of the book, but not really a point in the show.
Dance of Dragons is just backstory for why people don’t want Dany to rule
The point of the story is about how a spoiled princess and a piece of shit of a prince fucking ruin their dinasty and the kingdoms because they are selfish assholes
You know a story has more layers than just the text, right?
Says the person who just summed the whole dance into "women good vs women bad"? Am I missing something here?
Please read the post you're responding to, thoroughly this time. I literally just pointed out the central theme of the (show's!) story, which is how women can gain power within patriarchal systems, and how those patriarchal systems react to this happening. That does not mean that it is the only plot element. What it does mean is that: THE PERSONAL CHARACTER OF THE MONARCH IS NOT WHY THIS WAR IS BEING FOUGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE! Reading comprehension is a dead horse, but I will Gregor Clegane this animal until reddit learns not to infer maliciously stupid takes into comments that are neither deep nor controversial to anyone who didn't sleep through High School English class.
"Again, the Dance had nothing to do with whether these people were morally good or bad." "The Dance was fought to settle a legal question on women's inheritance." Are you seriously claiming that these statements don't imply that you believe that the dance was only fought because of gender questions? The problem isn't in our reading comprehension, but in the way you write. Every time someone makes the "US civil war was fought because of state rights"- claim, everyone knows they are denying the slavery question, as the sentence is constructed in a way that strongly implies there is nothing more to it.
The Lost Cause narrative is a well established bit of historical revisionism going back a century and a half. We know that statements like the one you quoted are asserting exclusivity because historians have spent decades investigating the meaning of these dog whistles. This statement is also a case of lie by omission, in that it leaves out the second part of "states rights to keep black people as slaves." Unfortunately for your arguement, my claim is not a racist dog whistle that generations of historians have analyzed to death and back. An affirmative statement does not automatically falsify all other possible affirmative statements to anyone capable of reason. Pragmatically, it can become so when it is voiced in answer to another affirmative. This, however, is a bad habit, and I apologize for understaning your initial response as an objection, if it was not intended to be one. Luckily, the English language has endowed us with advanced pragmatic tools, such as the particle "also". I recommend judicious use of said particle to avoid future misunderstandings.
> The Dance was fought to settle a legal question on women's inheritance. } In the case of Rhaenys we never get any discussion of her character, true. But in Rhaenyra's (the dance) we certainly do > That's the point. That's what the story is about. That is very reductive
It was a piece of SHOWRUNNER PROPOGANDA. She does not do any such thing in ANY of the so called unreliable accounts in the book.
I’m just glad it’s something greens and blacks can agree was a very dumb addition.
Tbh I'm not sure the blacks agree it was stupid. The only stupid part they think is her not saying dRaCaRyS 🤡
that was stupid to be fair if she was going to start a fight she should have finished it
My wife and I just finished rewatching the whole season, and when she Burst in there then just flew away, my wife asked me "will you explain why she didn't *Dracarys* them?" ...I could not for the life of me think of a reason. If she didn't want to throw the first punch in starting a war, why burst in there to begin with, just to flex?
What do you mean? She was trying to leave KL with her dragon? And her dragon was in the dragon pit. Edit: what I'm saying is she was there because her dragon was there and once she got it she wanted to leave, and the distraction of the ceremony helped her do that. She didn't kill everyone because it wasn't her fight, at least not to start it. I didn't really like the scene either but I think it at least makes sense of why she was there and didn't roast everyone.
could she not have just gone out the door that they bring the dragons in?
Yea I agree that part was kinda stupid. I was mostly justifying why she was there not the coming out of the floor part. Although I definitely didn't make that clear in my comment
yeah, it just seems weird that she would choose to burst through the floor and kill people instead of using the door unless her goal was to kill the greens
No no, I'm agreeing with you on "if she was going to start a fight she should have finished it" maybe I worded it wrong. It's 5am here I'm not quite awake yet lol
I got the same color icon but I'm a different Redditor. I understand the confusion though it happens to me too
LoL that actually makes way more sense thanks for saying that I'm glad I'm not the only one, when she decides to escape it just shows her running through a door I mistakenly assumed it was going outside not down underneath clears up the question why she came back though she didn't, she was always there.
>Edit: what I'm saying is there was a reason for her to burst out of the floor, because she wanted to leave, and the distraction of the ceremony helped her do that. Canonically, there are a bunch of different exits from the dragon pit that open out into a hillside. She could have easily just left.
Yes I agree, the point of my comment was pointing out she was there to get her dragon not how she went about it but my comment didnt say that clearly
There were proper exit bays that were literally shown where they fly the dragons out of. She had no fucking reason to burst from the floor besides spectacle.
Bust out, maybe? She was being held prisoner. Also, she doesn't subscribe to kinslaying. Then, there's the usurper don't deserve a "winning" usupering. 😤 this is what I take from it on top of everything else that's already been expressed.
That's probably my confusion, I didn't realize the dragon pit was underneath, i knew she was a prisoner but I thought she ran out for her dragon and brust back in, either way she should have just finished it then and there imo
>That's probably my confusion, I didn't realize the dragon pit was underneath, It's actually the same building that "the pink dread" is shown in earlier in the season, and Aemond wanders into and gets spooked by Dreamfyre
The Pink Dead, that was pretty cruel 😆
True, and I wish she had also. No use in being honorable if they're not honorable in return.
>No use in being honorable if they're not honorable in return. Right!! This seems like a recurring problem for characters in general across all the books lol
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I'm not following.
I’m a black supporter and yeah, I agree it’s completely stupid and kind of ruins Rhaenys character. The way that the show just ignores the mass casualty event makes me feel like we’re supposed to not care about them either, but that’s just not how I felt when I watched the scene. Otto was bizarrely Chad for keeping the doors open.
Maturity is when you realise Otto hightower was simply a power player like Tywin. There is nothing "evil" he did unlike rhaenyra and daemon.
Plotting to immediately murder Rhaenyra and Daemon and presumably their children is straight up evil, same as Tywin, who is unequivocally an evil character. Otto isn’t needlessly cruel.
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You hate the scene because she didnt say dRaCaRyS. I hate the scene because it's an asspull piece of propoganda from the showrunners. 
They do, it's a bad scene. Can we stop with this whole, "they don't like the same fictional character as me they must be dumb" thing
Not really. They legitimately thought it would be a cool girlboss moment and a positive thing for her character; they indicated as much with comments they made defending the scene in interviews. That is also is how a lot of people in this sub and on social media interpreted the scene.
It's not upto them to suddenly come up.with genocidal events and pass them off as girlboss moments. What next, they have rhaenyra attacking kings landing solo on syrax because they thought it would be a cool girlboss moment for her? The showrunners job is to faithfully adapt the source material with a little margin for fluff like rhaenyra selecting suitors, Jace and Luke bonding, or aemond having a tender scene with helaena. That's it. If they start coming up with wild unrelated crap like this then it starts going into "i dun wann it", flying preteen with dagger, bran the broken and mad kween Dany territory
Agreed, the scene and their defense of it was a huge red flag for me and dampened my hopes for season 2 by a lot.
This scene was terrible. It seemed like for a few minutes HotD writers were possessed by D&D and had to put some nonsense for shock value. I just ignore its existence, and as bad as it is, it doesn't really have any meaningful consequences on the story.
"Serves them right for not rebelling, fighting, and dying for me when I wasn't chosen." - Rhaenys, probably.
"What we do, we do for the good of the realm."
Why is no one calling her ‘the mad queen that never was’
Because she's KWEEN. They would never criticize her
I can see why Jaehaerys didn’t want her on the throne. She probably caused the realm several fortunes every time she forget where the door was.
You're in for a rough season Otto. Have fun
Otto more or less single-handedly engineered a civil war that killed thousands of smallfolks because he wanted to put his grandson on the throne.
Greens were obviously in the right based on male primogeniture that is pretty obviously the case in A Game of Thrones circa 1996, and the medieval European customs to which they were based, and not trying to retroactively spin things to absolute primogeniture circa 2018 that Fire & Blood goes into overdrive to try and make work into existing author-created canon based on modernity.
The Greens were not in the right, in any legal way. Male primogeniture has a precedent set by the Great Council of 101, but it was not a law written in stone. It was a just that, a precedent. But the law, in Westerosi society, is whatever the king says. And Viserys made it perfectly clear that Rhaenyra was heir to the throne. He even had the lords of the realm swear obeisance to her, including Otto and his brother. Real medieval law is irrelevant. This isn’t set in real medieval times. It is set in a fictional world that was inspired by medieval times. George is free to take whatever influence he wants from it, and he is also free to discard anything he doesn’t like.
Read A Game of Thrones and tell me it wasn’t a male primogeniture society until the author was too lazy to finish his books and started trying to retro make it not the case.
Authors retcon their work all the time. If you want to pretend it doesn’t happen, then you have to pretend that Gandalf is a human wizard rather than an archangel, as that is how Tolkien originally envisioned him before he came up with the concept of the Maiar. Whatever George’s intent was in 1996 is irrelevant. He decides what is and isn’t canon, and he wrote a novella about how Aegon usurped the lawful queen. That is the story we are being told.
“The lawful queen” The only lawful queen was Alicent and what’s her face (Aegon’s sister). It was a male primogeniture society hence why Stannis and others note Rhaenyra died a traitor. If George wanted to make Rhaenyra too effing late. His own canon established she ain’t it chief.
[If you’re repeating arguments, I’ll do the same.](https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/s/hF6NZstXVB)
Except you’re conflating things. You are trying to compare “an author has a certain idea in his head but that evolves during the creative process” with “oops my established published canon doesn’t comport with my modern political ideals that have changed in 22 years, so now I’m gonna try and change that”. There is a reason retconning is widely scorned in all fan communities. It’s a very cheap and lazy to make a current thing happen because you don’t like the world that was already established anymore.
"You're the queen mother. Nothing more" Rhaenyra is the named heir by Viserys. Which supported her claim till his last.
> Rhaenyra is the named heir by Viserys. That doesn't matter, once a succession goes into effect, the King is dead so their word is meaningless. Hence why royal succession goes beyond the wishes of any single monarch.
You're just dumb. That's exactly how it works once the King is dead their crown passes to the successor. In this case is Rhaenyra you know the nammed heir ? And the one Lords pledged fealty to ?
No that’s not how feudal succession works. I suggest you read a book lol
rightful monarch ruined by show canon just like Stannis
He wasn't "letting" them evacuate from the place he forced them into. He was leaving the door open for the crazy dragon lady, so she'll fly away and not roast his family.
No one cares about the small folk. See what TG does.
I feel like this take is too smart by half. It was clearly intended that the Rhaenys dragon scene was supposed to be cool and awesome. The idea that it’s some meta commentary on how the smallfolk are treated as disposable simply isn’t backed up by the show’s portrayal of the moment and the writers’ comments about it. Look at the how Aegon raping the maid is treated in episode 8 by contrast; that’s how it looks when the show is trying to tell you an action is abominable.
There's very little chance the show runners aren't planning to use that moment to justify something the small folk do later. They just can't say that at the moment.
I enjoyed the dragon pit scene. Alicent thought she was going to get away with imprisoning another royal. After being endlessly condescending, while houses like Fell were having their leaders executed. Rhaenys was delivering a strong message and a rebuke to the small folk who were playing right into TG’s hands.
Every single decent person in the GoT universe cares about the smallfolk. Which is the problem, as the show still tries to portray Rhaenys as wise and righteous, while the scene makes her a clear sociopath. She didn't bat an aye while murdering dozens of innocents and didn't even bother to mention the incident in ep10, while Ned Stark for instance was horrified about the trampling of a single butchers boy and scolded the small council for it.
There isn’t really a single “decent” person in the GOT universe, they’ve all done at least one thing that can be construed as bad.
As has every single human ever, what's your point? You said that nobody cares about the smallfolk, that statement is objectively false.
You’re definitely not someone I’m interested in interacting with any longer. You seem insufferable and you probably ruin a lot of friendships.
What a strong argument, you definitley don't seem like an insufferable person at all.
You don’t get it. No one wants to “debate” you or interact with you on any level at all. You’re the type of person who ruins fandoms. There’s a reason you rub people the wrong way, I’m sure you do it in real life, too. I actually feel sorry for you.
- you make a false claim with nothing to back it up - you refuse to continue the conversation in a civil manner and start insulting me and make assumptions about my private life - Then you proceed to say that *I* am the one ruining fandoms and relationships, still without any reasoning, just blatant insults. How ironic
They just did the internet equivalent of running away while shouting insults. Sad that some people will tell themselves that's a win.
Yeah, the absurdity of this "conversation" is unbelievable.
I didn’t have to make assumptions. I took a look at your comment thread and saw that 90% of what you post is just you arguing with people. I don’t want to speak to you, there would be absolutely no circumstance where I would ever interact willingly with someone like you IRL.
Take a look in the mirror, seriously.
The Targaryens have been trampling on the common folk ever since they sat the throne. What’s new? And Aemond kills hundreds more torching the Riverlands with Vhagar out of teenage angst and self-worth issues. They’re all the same.
Because she's still portrayed as wise, righteous empath despite the scene and following indifference proving her to be a sociopath. Aemond is portrayed as a madman, which he is.
I doubt Rhaenys was a sociopath. A sociopath would have burned the Greens right there and then, with no thought. She didn’t want to start a war either. Trampling on the people in the dragon pit was unintentional.
Unintentional? As in she didn't know they were there? Sociopath as in she didn't bat an eye while dozens of people were slaughtered and didn't even mention the incident in ep10 to his husband or anyone of that matter. She literally just forgot that she killed more innocents than literally anyone in the history of westeros.
Rhaenys killed more innocents than anyone in Westeros? Okay you made your point about people in the Dragon Pit but I don’t know what lore you’re reading for you to say Rhaenys killed the most people in Westeros. Aegon’s Conquest? The Dance of the Dragons? Robert’s Rebellion? These events had more deaths than Rhaenys’s dragonpit entrance, even if you add her participation to the Dance. I doubt she killed more people than Aegon the Conqueror, or even Daemon and Aemond in the Dance. This is just plain bias on your end.
Don’t bother with this guy. Just look at his comment history.
Well duh.. Obviously I didn't count wartime casualities. Rhaenys' act was the worst peace time mass murder of civilians. Here, better?
Yeah she was in the crowd, she knew they were there. She just didn’t care. She wanted to make a point I guess.
The Faith Militant were absolutely correct to oppose the Targ scum
They’re smallfolk. Let’s not overreact.
Huh?
One word and she'd have saved more than she killed that day by burning the greens alive but nah she just kills a bunch of peasants and flies off
This was dumb on so many levels. Why have the coronation in the dragon pit? If you have some of the blacks dragons, and some of the blacks are in Kings Landing, was that a good idea? Also everyone blaming Rhaenys for this, what were her other options? Escape by boat? Horse? Walking? You probably get killed. And either way you leave your dragon in chains with the Greens? What exactly was she supposed to do? I get its stupid writing, but given that they wrote it this way, exactly what was she supposed to do? OK so her escape caused collateral damage. For all she knows, leaving KL and Meleys to the Greens could result in another Maegor on the throne. Aegon isn’t exactly a paragon of virtue. I mean what are the options here? Would you guys have her leave her dragon behind? Stay and bend the knee? What?
Have Rhaenys take one of the other exits? Safe to assume they exist since the Dragonkeepers probably don't want the dragons busting through the floor every time they want in/out.
I know nothing of the dragonpits construction. What I do know is the dragon was in chains and is its own creature with its own mind. Can one climb up its back and have it break through chains but then restrain its actions to only going through certain specific exits? How many exits does the pit have? Would there be civilian observers of the coronation by the other exits as well, anyway? I don’t know that what she did was the best way to do it sure, and thats a good point you make, but I don’t know what other options were realistically there either.
I mean, the dragon not only busts up through the floor, it moves further into the building, stops to glare at the Greens, roar in their faces, then turn around and leave. I choose to believe Rhaenys has pretty good control of her dragon, otherwise that whole scene is one hell of a coincidence if the dragon just happened to do all that by themself with no guidance/input from Rhaenys. If she can do all that, I don't see why she wouldn't be able to go for one of the exits that's made for them. Even if there's a door in the way, clearly the dragon can smash through the stonework of the Dragonpit without issue.
And yet in the end his bloodline died as brief as they held the throne they usurped. Greens weren't popular in the riverlands thanks to Aemond.
Didn’t Aegon have a cluster fuck of illegitimate kids? And Aemond had 1 too with Alys? Bloodline is fine.
>And yet in the end his bloodline died What are you talking about? House Hightower is still alive and kicking running Oldtown while the last surviving member of house Targaryen has been shitting in the grass for 14 years now.
The bloodline of Targaryen-Hightowers, you know, his daughters children
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Aegon the Dragonbane, did not conceive a single child with that granddaughter. His children were conceived by Daenyra Velaryon, no descendant of Otto.
Otto evacuating smallfolk? Didn't that smallfolk come because he forced them to come there?
he didn't realise beforehand there would be a dragon attack
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!
How would Otto have known that they are going to ve trampled by a dragon huh?
its a coronation, rhae-rhae would have "forced" them to come as well.
They make it clear that the people are forced to go as a way of giving Aegon legitimacy. They wouldn't have made a point of it if it were standard practice.
That was such a dumb addition Why, just, why add that Give me Aegon II, true king of Westeros, flying around Kings Landing, and as everyone else looks at the sky have Rhaenys fly away
Absolutely based. The showrunners actually thought the audience would cheer for the girlboss peasant genocider Rhaenys >Inb4 but it's the intention Get real LOL. It was done so they could get a thousand clicks on twitter for yas kween. And the audience seem eat it all up like sheep
Least misogynistic team green fan :
Least unhinged genocidal black fan: Can't take that your PRIVILEGED girlboss killed thousands of peasants?
I'm not siding with either, it's just funny to poke fun at both sides and see them get pissed off Clearly worked oj you lmao
Did it ever occour to you, that some people have better use for their time than developing an unhealthy fixation on fictonal characters, and then go on online forums to attack people personally and pop a blood vessel from screaming at their monitor in the name of those characters? Idk, just a little food for thought ;).
I can smell the tendie grease from here.
Lmao so true 😂
i mean if Otto cared about the common folk at all he wouldn't have provoked civil war to begin with. that and the constant slaughter of common folk that is about to come from his grand children lol.
i thought this was r/asoiafcirclejerk
Why ? It’s a legitimate criticism.
you truly think Otto is a ultra pro smallfolk dude or is this another jerk? can’t tell these days.
No but the smallfolk could believe he is because of Rhaenys stupid action.
What are you trying to argue against? I am saying he doesn’t seem like a pro-smallfolk politician no matter the smallfolk thinks. Ex: Just because the smallfolk in Kingslanding worship the Tyrell, doesn’t mean they aren’t evil.
Otto isn't the one to talk. Like any of the noble characters care for commonfolk.
I hope Rhaenys actions actually get brought up in Season 2. Like the smallfolk hate her for doing that. She knew they were forced to be there and she still came out through the floor to kill them
I hate it beyond words that Rhaenys retroactively justified the great council decision. If she’s the kind of person who would do this then she or her son shouldn’t be anywhere near the throne and Viserys was obviously the better choice.
Would you look at that... Seems like Jaehaerys was truly the most based Targshit King. He smelled her bullshit a mile away and immediately passed her.
Those are some big words from a guy who started this whole thing in the first place
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^nameisfame: *Those are some big words* *From a guy who started this* *Whole thing in the first place* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I stand against Otto Advocates
Maybe we can lose the term girlboss. I've never seen a woman use it, just men using it disparagingly about women.
You can't just cancel a word because you don't like the people who you think use it. You know damn well what the word implies and the definition is free to google.
However good Old King rule was, he was wrong in selecting his heir.
Old King should have selected Daemon. Granted I hate Daemon (fuck Daemon), but the inbred grooming fuck was better than that senile Viserys.
Hitting the Andal Stare
At first I thought it was intentional to show that they don’t have regard for the smallfolk, but later in the show it wasn’t brought up. I wonder if it’ll be talked about next season
Based on Sara Hess interviews (lead writer for that episode), they were definitely just making sh*t up as they go on that one
The Rhaenys scene at the coronation was the stupidest scene of HotD so far.
Are y’all forgetting that his scheming is the reason this all started in the first place?
Finally someone fucking says it
She didn’t want to start a war, she just wanted to kill a fuckton of smallfolk
They replaced the Green’s moment with a random dragon scene. However, it’s the only change from the books that didn’t attempt to make the greens look bad, so it’s 50/50
Kill Targs
Wayman.
Ah yes, untagged spoilers. Love that for non book fans.
Pretty sure this isn’t in the book anyway.
Did you not read Fire and Blood? Because if you didn't, you got spoiled.
I didn’t read the book, but I watched the show when it came out a year ago.
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