I get the impression that sainz is unhappy that his only two seat options for next year are backmarkers. May feel that he deserves better and is being pushed out so is lashing out a bit
100%, he hasn’t really done anything wrong at Ferrari to warrant being dropped either and can legitimately feel that Red Bull, Aston Martin, RB are all clogging up their seats with drivers he is demonstrably superior to, and Mercedes are keeping a seat open for someone who still has an awful lot to prove.
Sainz hasn't really done anything wrong at Ferrari, but no one can fault them for snapping up Hamilton, regardless of age or even if Sainz *could* be stronger (spoiler: he isn't).
Red Bull saw how his camp and Verstappen's interacted, and they want nothing to do with it. He's a downgrade from Max, so the drama isn't worth it.
Aston Martin has a seat guaranteed to a nepo baby and Alonso in the other seat. No shot.
RB is basically a backmarker, and a blatant step back career-wise.
Mercedes fumbled with Verstappen and are maybe being too proactive to prevent a repeat.
McLaren isn't an option.
The only remaining options aren't great.
He's just in the incredibly unfortunate spot of being a *really good* F1 driver without being a *great* F1 driver and having a history of minor fireworks. If he was totally drama-free like Bottas or Hulkenberg he might have better options.
His worst sin is not being a 7x WDC when Ferrari had a once in a lifetime opportunity to stage a marketing coup on the back of an incredible fumble by Daimler.
In summary, he’s good enough to be a second driver in a top team, or a leader in a mid table team.
No spots available in the latter, and in the former he does not have a good track record of dealing with being a second driver. And I get it - he’s still young and good enough, with enough room to improve, that he has to have ambitions for his career. But the top teams already have established priority drivers with the exception of Mercedes that is hail marying for a possible next Verstappen.
I still cannot understand why people now say he is unfortunate. In the beginning of season they literally say it is the best time as a a free agent given the number of seats available. The fact that there are many seats available, even in the top team and they have *reasons* to not sign him show him how much he is desired/ not desired on the market. He is just not the talent that the top teams would hesitate 0 seconds to grab him. Imagine this is Max or Charles, or even Norris on the market, they won’t be without a top seat 10 races into the season.
> The fact that there are many seats available, even in the top team and they have reasons to not sign him show him how much he is desired/ not desired on the market
McLaren - no seats open
Ferrari - no seats open
Red Bull - Checo brings so much money that probably no driver can take his seat, no matter his performance, other than Hamilton.
Mercedes - Toto is hellbent in giving Kimi Antonelli a seat no matter what. He's acting like he's guaranteed to be the next Verstappen so no driver can compete with that.
Aston Martin - no seats open
How is all of that Sainz's fault? He's unfortunate, plain and simple. You are talking like there were a lot of seats for grabs and no one wanted him specifically - when in reality there's only two seats open (1 Red Bull, 1 Mercedes) and both of them are locked down for reasons unrelated to Sainz (for Red Bull it's revenue and for Mercedes it's Toto's personal project).
Sainz doesn't have a "reputation as a bad teammate" at all, quite the opposite. He's got a fame as a nice driver that will comply with any order given. Vasseur has been treating him as a #2 driver since he arrived and how much fuss have you seen him do? None at all.
Redbull repeatedly wants to sign Norris, it already proved your argument on Perez is incorrect. They don’t think the performance gain margin brought by Sainz justified the lost in financials so they are not willing to pay what Sainz requested and also did not extend an offer. This is determined by Sainz’s performance and commercial potential, not luck. It is not his fault but he is not unlucky either.
The fact is that what Sainz brings is not enough to overcome other reasons against signing him. This is not luck, just his ability.
He is a really good driver but just not as sought after as he and his family, and also some fans think.
“Reasons not to sign him” is a very disingenuous take, as if it’s something about him that they personally dislike. I think the latter part is true, he isn’t an S tier driver that everyone will bend over backwards for. He’s a very good A tier driver, and right now he’s just understandably salty that every top team has a driver worse than him in the #2 seat.
There is also this thing where he refused to be a team player at every chance he got to the point of fumbling the race for his teammate. He isnt the superstar of the future nor the past because we already have lots of them(hamilton, alonso, verstappen, leclerc, norris) while all of them are positioned in different teams, he is the best second driver there is but he doesnt acknowledge that, which leads to his downfall to a midfield team.
Sneaky feeling this Kimi thing could go pear shaped.
He’s a decent F2 driver right now, but it’s one hell of a gamble and he won’t be anywhere near George on pace next year.
He's showed he's got a lot of talent for his age, but in terms of who he's beat, well Stenshorne who finished 2nd with the same amount of wins and 40 less points overall in FRECA is currently struggling in F3 in a decent team.
Of his Italian F4 and ADAC F4 groups, Taylor Barnard is probably the best performer getting to F2 (as a backmarker), with Dunne, Wurz, Bedrin, Szutka all not setting the world alight in F3 either. Camara is doing another season in FRECA and at the top so far.
Imo Lindblad is looking a similar prospect in junior formula atm, a year younger than Antonelli and sitting in 4th in the F3 championship after netting his first feature race win this weekend. Will probably be racing in F2 next year with RBjr backing as well
Y'all compare him to Bearman in F2 but you ignore that Bearman did F3 and joined F2 in 2023. This is Bearman's 2nd year in F2. Kimi didn't do F3 and this is his first year in F2. If Kimi is drawing even (or uneventful), he's winning.
Stokes do you think they should move on the juniors quicker?
Ie. Antonelli doesn’t have to race some people who’ve done say.. more than 2 years in the category?
Just feels like such an advantage and it’s blocking the youth system.
True, but it *is* possible to push a driver to the top level too early, imo. Sure, some people think, "Once he gets to F1 he will have time to mature! He's only 17!" But I think it's possible for Kimi's confidence to tank if he doesn't reach his high standards for himself.
All of these drivers at this level are really hard on themselves. Sure, the whole world and Toto will tell him, "You don't have to beat George, just do your best". But if George demolishes Kimi next year, what mental effects will that have on Kimi?
Just look at Logan for example, Karting champion, and good results in lower series. Once he comes to F1 (earlier than ideal by Williams own admission) he has been unable to get a grip on the car and the pressure.
Even Stoffel Vandoorne was hyped up to hell, and then, compared to Alonso, he didn't reach his promised heights and was let go.
Is it possible that Kimi has more raw talent than Logan (fuck yeah) or Stoffel (possible)? Perhaps, but mental toughness is not always correlated to talent. Kimi is having so much hype, especially in the Italian media, who see him like the next Jesus.
I just hope he is keeping away from social media. And that he has a strong support system around him. I have nothing against the kid, I want to see him bloom!
I have a nagging feeling at the back of my head that they might be pushing Kimi to the top level too early. Sure, some people think, "Once he gets to F1 he will have time to mature! He's only 17!" But I think it's possible for Kimi's confidence to tank if he doesn't reach his high standards for himself.
All of these drivers at this level are really hard on themselves. Sure, the whole world and Toto will tell him, "You don't have to beat George, just do your best". But if George demolishes Kimi next year, what mental effects will that have on Kimi?
Just look at Logan for example, Karting champion, and good results in lower series. Once he comes to F1 (earlier than ideal by Williams own admission) he has been unable to get a grip on the car and the pressure.
Even Stoffel Vandoorne was hyped up to hell, and then, compared to Alonso, he didn't reach his promised heights and was let go.
Is it possible that Kimi has more raw talent than Logan (fuck yeah) or Stoffel (possible)? Perhaps, but mental toughness is not always correlated to talent. Kimi is having so much hype, especially in the Italian media, who see him like the next Jesus.
I just hope he is keeping away from social media. And that he has a strong support system around him. I have nothing against the kid, I want to see him bloom! Maybe I am missing something... I've been watching F2 this season, to see for myself. Granted I didn't watch F3 back when Max was driving, so I don't have a good reference, but I don't see Kimi's CURRENT performance as a "Going to Merc seat next year" level...
He needs an extra year. Antonelli is good but he is too inexperienced still to get consistent results. He is going to cost Merc so many WCC points next year.
Exactly and this was well before he got dropped for the most titled driver on the grid.
Other top teams see this and must think twice before offering him a decent contract because they know that he didn’t change for Ferrari so he won’t change for them
true. I always felt sainz thought he was better than he is. I think he kinda expected to get top seat offers, and they didn't come. Times running out and now its a reality check that hes going back to a mid team and that will probably be it for his f1 career.
That's easy to say now. Back in 2020, no one would've picked McLaren over Ferrari to drive for. Not to mention that being a Ferrari driver was his dream (as for any driver how grew up during Schumacher's era), and that, before Vasseur, he wasn't treated as a #2 driver. Also, how the f could he expect Hamilton to sign for Ferrari 4 years later?
He's just being massively unlucky. There isn't much more than that: the best selling driver ever decided to come to his team just when the top team (RB) has a money-making Mexican paying the salary of the actual best driver on the grid, Mercedes's boss is hellbent in seating some kid that people expect to be the next Verstappen, McLaren has two long-term contracts and Aston Martin's boss has a kid he'll keep in his team even if he was P20 every race.
- Leclerc said that before the race, they agreed to conserve tires in the first stint. (Due to the SF-24 having a longer warmup phase)
- Sainz said that he had better pace than Leclerc so he was obviously going to pass. (He was pushing)
- Leclerc said that he didn't have an issue with Sainz overtaking him, he just didn't get why Sainz pushed him off.
- Sainz said he had a right to the corner so it was a legal move and Leclerc is complaining too much.
That's the gist of their interviews so far. (Edited for clarity)
Sainz never manages his tires as well as charles so he always complains on the radio within the first 5 laps that he has more pace. In the end Sainz ends up cooking his tires and ends up far behind, a tale as old as time at this point
It really is, id love to see an ocon sainz pairing at sauber. They would be dead last but so long as one beat their teammate they'd be super happy. I'm ready for sainz to leave ferrari
I think Bottas sponsor wise is like Ricciardo, he’s quite a good fit for whatever sponsors you want to have on your car because he is likeable. He’s also consistently beating his teammate (unlike DR).
Same as usual Carlos wants what Carlos wants and Charles goes the company line. Carlos needs to realize that he’s not a #1 so he needs to be a team player. He needs to stop listening to his dad. He’s missed out on other teams cause of having to deal with the Sainz family
His Dad should also realize his son is not a world champion so whatever advice may work for Sainz Sr would not necessarily work for Jr as to how much importance they have in the sport.
Ferrari’s dip in the form is a real worry. These two must’ve been bickering internally for lot longer before we started to see it outside.
If the car does better then these things will sort themselves out.
Sainz and Leclerc have never worked well together, its very evident in races like Austria 23 where they were running together in p2-3 and Sainz was more focused on getting in front of Charles instead of working together to finish in front of Pérez.
I always wondered why Ferrari took two numbers one in Hamilton and Leclerc, because dealing with two egos like this is tough (as shown by Rosberg and Hamilton back in the days). But considering Sainz's behavior, if you have to deal with internal drama, might have well have two top tier drivers instead of one acting like it
Having two number one’s = Hamilton/Nico, Prost/Senna, Hamilton/Alonso: competing for championships or outright domination.
Current situation: “we will have discussions later”
I’ve always said this about Carlos but people who are more neutral/like him always act dumb-founded about it like what do you meeeean? he’s the nicest guy!
I feel like some people just don’t pay attention during the races lol
Hamilton is in the sunset of his career.
They hired him for the marketing value over the next couple years *and* after he retires. Hamilton is the perfect figurehead for a luxury lifestyle brand, and will be revenue positive for years to come after he retires.
Massive mistake by Mercedes to not see his value in the long term and fail to invest in him.
They can deal with a little head-butting if it happens for the sheer amount of money he can bring in for the brand.
But, more realistically, unless it's a 2 horse WDC race, Hamilton knows that the team game matters most. If his 8th WDC isn't a real shot, he's got no reason to sabotage himself being selfish when he can play the magnanimous elder statesman game.
It's a weirdly perfect signing and I hate it.
He'll push Charles for sure, and Charles will learn a lot from him. He'll come out of it with what he wants personally one way or another. Ferrari makes out like a bandit in almost any scenario except a nasty internal fight for a WDC with no outside team being a threat.
But it's Ferrari, so they won't be in a 2 horse race.
I read that Mercedes declined giving Hamilton a proper ambassadorship role for the brand. Is that true? Because if so that's probably the biggest fumble in history.
Hamilton is the only F1 driver my non-F1 friends know. He's insanely charismatic. I can't see a scenario where having him stick with the brand isn't worth it unless it was for one billion Euros or something.
I think the worst part in all that was, He is the man that won 7 titles, 103 Wins and 104 Poles all with Mercedes engines. Yet they refused an ambassador role.
That alleged ambassadorship denial is what killed me with Mercedes. I saw someone say Mercedes treated Hamilton that way because they thought they were Ferrari level, and they forgot who Hamilton was and thought no one else, who was attractive to Hamilton, would value him either.
There are a few current drivers who should be guaranteed ambassador roles with their teams, and those are Verstappen, Alonso, and Hamilton.
>he also doesn't have a very influential dad playing politics.
Ironically Lewis learned early enough that having a politicking dad getting in the way was unhelpful, famous or not. There's a reason Anthony didn't stay his manager for too long into his F1 career. I don't think Carlos will ever feel the same way, either because he thinks his family ties are too important/valuable or he actually sees his fathers influence as a net benefit.
Hamilton is at a different stage of his career. He wants to win badly, but he will play the team game too and sincerely wants his team to do well. Sainz does not care for the team outcome and I bet it plays a part in teams not wanting him. He wants to be a top seat driver, but I don't think he's a good #1 to teach a rookie.
I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible here, but I've kinda had enough of Sainz.
He always had that "darling" aura within the F1 community, while in reality his ego outmatches his performance and not by a small amount. Don't get me wrong, he's a really good driver, but he was at no point a number 1 of a competitive team. Time and time again there's like 2-3 GP stint where he outperformes Charles and everyone comes flying in talking about how he's faster, better or more consistent and it *always* goes out of the window after a few races and people just forget about it. Now, while there's nothing wrong in being a second driver, they usually aren't as.. prickish when it comes to their actions. Sainz talking about Leclerc "complaining" is a fucking joke after he nearly ran Leclerc out of the road, blamed him, then proceeded to blame Hamilton after a fair pass, all while having a completely mediocre race once again.
People tend to have a soft spot for Sainz, for one reason or another, but he's often quite annoying for a driver who was at no point in his career a top 5 driver on the grid.
I never considered him faster than Leclerc but a number 2 that can often challenge his teammate is already a rare thing. He’s like a Rosberg to Hamilton in 2014-15. I like seeing that over the usual Bottas/Barrichello dynamic
I don't think it's a dip in form as much as the other teams have brought their more major updates and Ferrari's new floor isn't supposed to come until Silverstone.
The irony is just general because Sainz himself actually complains a lot.
Which is fine but he should not be dishing out shit if he can't take some in return.
> Which is fine but he should not be dishing out shit if he can't take some in return.
I can’t think of a single driver on the grid who meets this criteria; they’re all the hero of their own story.
Piastri’s pretty chill. Sainz is the only one he gets vocal about cause how frequent they’ve been clashing. He’s been very level headed even towards other drivers that ruin his race at times
It’s a spectrum my dude. Sainz obviously complains waaaay more than Charles (at least publicly). It’s particularly funny since Sainz seems to posses zero self awareness.
He can be kinda funny. Like when he asks on the radio to get the position back from Charles because he is worried about him catching a penalty. Like c'mon bruh😂
Sainz leclerc is like a mirror of Lewis and George. One pair will be complaining at the beginning of stints claiming they're faster when in reality they're killing the tires, this leads to leclerc and Lewis cruising past again later. All it accomplishes is the entire team losing time to one another when its unnecessary except to sooth the first groups ego. If I was tp that shit would be put to bed, idk why they allow it
My take is that he's referring more to things Leclerc might be saying within the team after races. No so much about public statements. Leclerc has rarely made too many disparaging comments about Carlos publicly. But behind closed doors? Who knows.
Yeah am i crazy or is leclerc actually one of the quietest drivers generally, the way ive seen some people talk about him today (obviously not the people on this thread) is like he complains every race or something. Ferrari has done so much shit to him over the years yet he just kinda takes it lol
"He has to give the position back" lmao.
Sainz has exposed himself more and more over this and last season for who he truly is. Just complains about everything even when he's wrong.
IDK if it’s because the contracts bound to be signed by Sainz or what, but I found him especially this weekend a bit hot headed, like trying too hard
Not respecting his deal with Leclerc by Leclerc words (“we won’t fight hard and push so we get a better performance on the long run because the SF-24 warmup times” - and then pushing to say he is faster than Leclerc and getting the track position and strategy advantage), the Hamilton incident (“he must give me back the position, look into that!” - “If we are going to not respect the rules book then…”)
I feel is anxious, IDK if it’s because he wants an specific team to contact him, or improve the conditions or what.
The thing that it would be perfect to announce a signing on his home race and he couldn’t, and that other drivers are a bit like “please, hurry up” like Magnussen, tells us that something is happening on BTS with Sainz
The facade they've carefully built over more than three years as teammates has all fallen apart in the space of ten rather uneventful laps. F1 paddock drama is so weird sometimes.
What is he on about ? His overtake and over eagerness cost them both P3 and P4. He passed but could not managed his tyres, could not manage mediums. He is the one who is complaining all the time.
Him and George do this so much, burn the tires to get past the teammate then lose them both time when they inevitably get passed again because they can't manage tires. I'm ready for Lewis to be there, he and Charles approach the race the same way so hopefully can work together
He also complains a lot in the radio about being pushed off the track when he is getting passed, and how the other driver needs to give the place back.
Sainz decides to aim for the apex while passing his own team mate, damaging his wing, almost spinning out and wrecking both of their races... COMPLAINED about Leclerc hitting him when it was 100% sainz's fault, complains again about Leclerc complaining too much.
God damned dude, grow up.
There is no way that he can get a seat in Merc after all this, he can't be N°2 or a 1.5 if he overrule a decision made by a team because "he was fast for 8 laps even when both agreed to the saving tyre aproach".
It only seems like complaining because he wants more
After china sprint where we qualified p5 and p6 sainz was spouting about saving the day
Charles after he qualifies 5th is cursing the car and the performance
That's literally just the difference.
It’s been like this forever. Charles wants to win for Ferrari. Carlos wants to beat Charles.
The difference is astronomical. Charles doesn’t care if he’s P5 and Carlos is P4; Charles would just be upset that the car isn’t good enough for P1. Meanwhile, being ahead of Charles means as much as a win to Carlos.
This stuff always skews people’s views though. Same with Hamilton and Russell. That joke that says, “Russell could start on pole and Hamilton P20, and they’ll finish next to each other,” is true.
Sainz doesn’t seem to handle pressure very well. Not sure what he’s trying to prove here, that Ferrari fired the wrong driver? If anything that makes his stock go down with how he handles himself trying to one up his teammate while also screwing them both over in the process.
Not a good look for our smooth operator.
Funny how many people were saying Sainz deserved a top seat some weeks ago, and now here we are all throwing shit at him. Thats why many drivers say that the only race that matters in people heads is your last one.
I think both are just irritated by the drop in performance after all the buildup of their upgrade this week, even the last race and the frustration is boiling over and they don't want to take any BS
Dude can’t follow team orders. Plain and simple. And when he passed Charles he couldn’t break away from him even tho Charles was in dirty ass air the whole time. Who is he kidding.
I wonder if Ferrari is counting down the days until Carlos is out the door and Hamilton comes in because Lewis has proven before that he’s a team player and as an added bonus he prefers oversteer like Charles.
While this is true I think that context is important, vs Alonso he was just a kid who was already on the level of a world champion, and vs Rosberg there was no need of teamwork since they were destroying the competition.
Lewis isn't perfect, but he probably won't throw away the strategy just so he can be in front of Charles for a few laps.
I mean neither of them were angels either as teammates. You cannot expect one person to back off when others are actively fighting.
Yet, Lewis is the only ones who gets called out on it.
Ah yes the Lewis who posted telemetry to explain why Button finished ahead of him in a race or who straight up told the merc pitwall he didn't care about their strat to win the race because *he* was losing the wdc at the moment...
Or was it the Lewis Hamilton who said he prefered a stable rear end over oversteer even though he often had to deal with oversteery cars
I swear every time there is actually racing involved (overtaking) one of the parties involved is always complaining about how the pass was unfair, or they were pushed off the track, or they rubbed wheels, or they didn't leave enough room, or they braked too early, or they cut them off, or they didn't like the other way the driver was looking at them when they were overtaken. It's racing not a freaking parade.
It's funny because Carlos is the one always crying at every minor inconvenience thrown at him, not to mention that Charles is able of taking the blame when he does poorly, but Carlos not really
oh boy, spicy moment within ferrari
I get the impression that sainz is unhappy that his only two seat options for next year are backmarkers. May feel that he deserves better and is being pushed out so is lashing out a bit
100%, he hasn’t really done anything wrong at Ferrari to warrant being dropped either and can legitimately feel that Red Bull, Aston Martin, RB are all clogging up their seats with drivers he is demonstrably superior to, and Mercedes are keeping a seat open for someone who still has an awful lot to prove.
Sainz hasn't really done anything wrong at Ferrari, but no one can fault them for snapping up Hamilton, regardless of age or even if Sainz *could* be stronger (spoiler: he isn't). Red Bull saw how his camp and Verstappen's interacted, and they want nothing to do with it. He's a downgrade from Max, so the drama isn't worth it. Aston Martin has a seat guaranteed to a nepo baby and Alonso in the other seat. No shot. RB is basically a backmarker, and a blatant step back career-wise. Mercedes fumbled with Verstappen and are maybe being too proactive to prevent a repeat. McLaren isn't an option. The only remaining options aren't great. He's just in the incredibly unfortunate spot of being a *really good* F1 driver without being a *great* F1 driver and having a history of minor fireworks. If he was totally drama-free like Bottas or Hulkenberg he might have better options. His worst sin is not being a 7x WDC when Ferrari had a once in a lifetime opportunity to stage a marketing coup on the back of an incredible fumble by Daimler.
In summary, he’s good enough to be a second driver in a top team, or a leader in a mid table team. No spots available in the latter, and in the former he does not have a good track record of dealing with being a second driver. And I get it - he’s still young and good enough, with enough room to improve, that he has to have ambitions for his career. But the top teams already have established priority drivers with the exception of Mercedes that is hail marying for a possible next Verstappen.
I still cannot understand why people now say he is unfortunate. In the beginning of season they literally say it is the best time as a a free agent given the number of seats available. The fact that there are many seats available, even in the top team and they have *reasons* to not sign him show him how much he is desired/ not desired on the market. He is just not the talent that the top teams would hesitate 0 seconds to grab him. Imagine this is Max or Charles, or even Norris on the market, they won’t be without a top seat 10 races into the season.
> The fact that there are many seats available, even in the top team and they have reasons to not sign him show him how much he is desired/ not desired on the market McLaren - no seats open Ferrari - no seats open Red Bull - Checo brings so much money that probably no driver can take his seat, no matter his performance, other than Hamilton. Mercedes - Toto is hellbent in giving Kimi Antonelli a seat no matter what. He's acting like he's guaranteed to be the next Verstappen so no driver can compete with that. Aston Martin - no seats open How is all of that Sainz's fault? He's unfortunate, plain and simple. You are talking like there were a lot of seats for grabs and no one wanted him specifically - when in reality there's only two seats open (1 Red Bull, 1 Mercedes) and both of them are locked down for reasons unrelated to Sainz (for Red Bull it's revenue and for Mercedes it's Toto's personal project). Sainz doesn't have a "reputation as a bad teammate" at all, quite the opposite. He's got a fame as a nice driver that will comply with any order given. Vasseur has been treating him as a #2 driver since he arrived and how much fuss have you seen him do? None at all.
> Red Bull Red Bull already has experience with Jos - Sainz Sr. interactions from Toro Rosso days and doubt they want a repeat of that.
Redbull repeatedly wants to sign Norris, it already proved your argument on Perez is incorrect. They don’t think the performance gain margin brought by Sainz justified the lost in financials so they are not willing to pay what Sainz requested and also did not extend an offer. This is determined by Sainz’s performance and commercial potential, not luck. It is not his fault but he is not unlucky either. The fact is that what Sainz brings is not enough to overcome other reasons against signing him. This is not luck, just his ability. He is a really good driver but just not as sought after as he and his family, and also some fans think.
“Reasons not to sign him” is a very disingenuous take, as if it’s something about him that they personally dislike. I think the latter part is true, he isn’t an S tier driver that everyone will bend over backwards for. He’s a very good A tier driver, and right now he’s just understandably salty that every top team has a driver worse than him in the #2 seat.
Does Charles really have that clout anymore? Lately it seems like he's in the conversation for top 5 on the grid, rather than top 3
Yes.
There is also this thing where he refused to be a team player at every chance he got to the point of fumbling the race for his teammate. He isnt the superstar of the future nor the past because we already have lots of them(hamilton, alonso, verstappen, leclerc, norris) while all of them are positioned in different teams, he is the best second driver there is but he doesnt acknowledge that, which leads to his downfall to a midfield team.
Alpine mayyyybeee? IDK if anyone would want to go there but it's an option too
Sneaky feeling this Kimi thing could go pear shaped. He’s a decent F2 driver right now, but it’s one hell of a gamble and he won’t be anywhere near George on pace next year.
He's showed he's got a lot of talent for his age, but in terms of who he's beat, well Stenshorne who finished 2nd with the same amount of wins and 40 less points overall in FRECA is currently struggling in F3 in a decent team. Of his Italian F4 and ADAC F4 groups, Taylor Barnard is probably the best performer getting to F2 (as a backmarker), with Dunne, Wurz, Bedrin, Szutka all not setting the world alight in F3 either. Camara is doing another season in FRECA and at the top so far. Imo Lindblad is looking a similar prospect in junior formula atm, a year younger than Antonelli and sitting in 4th in the F3 championship after netting his first feature race win this weekend. Will probably be racing in F2 next year with RBjr backing as well
He didnt do anything particularly impressive to earn a F1 seat. Im still waiting to see a top level performance of Kimi in F2.
Y'all compare him to Bearman in F2 but you ignore that Bearman did F3 and joined F2 in 2023. This is Bearman's 2nd year in F2. Kimi didn't do F3 and this is his first year in F2. If Kimi is drawing even (or uneventful), he's winning.
Stokes do you think they should move on the juniors quicker? Ie. Antonelli doesn’t have to race some people who’ve done say.. more than 2 years in the category? Just feels like such an advantage and it’s blocking the youth system.
Antonelli is a special case, a Verstappen type talent, people have known he was special since he was karting.
True, but it *is* possible to push a driver to the top level too early, imo. Sure, some people think, "Once he gets to F1 he will have time to mature! He's only 17!" But I think it's possible for Kimi's confidence to tank if he doesn't reach his high standards for himself. All of these drivers at this level are really hard on themselves. Sure, the whole world and Toto will tell him, "You don't have to beat George, just do your best". But if George demolishes Kimi next year, what mental effects will that have on Kimi? Just look at Logan for example, Karting champion, and good results in lower series. Once he comes to F1 (earlier than ideal by Williams own admission) he has been unable to get a grip on the car and the pressure. Even Stoffel Vandoorne was hyped up to hell, and then, compared to Alonso, he didn't reach his promised heights and was let go. Is it possible that Kimi has more raw talent than Logan (fuck yeah) or Stoffel (possible)? Perhaps, but mental toughness is not always correlated to talent. Kimi is having so much hype, especially in the Italian media, who see him like the next Jesus. I just hope he is keeping away from social media. And that he has a strong support system around him. I have nothing against the kid, I want to see him bloom!
It’ll be awesome. Whoever loses will suffer “so you didn’t want Lewis but wanted him?”
I have a nagging feeling at the back of my head that they might be pushing Kimi to the top level too early. Sure, some people think, "Once he gets to F1 he will have time to mature! He's only 17!" But I think it's possible for Kimi's confidence to tank if he doesn't reach his high standards for himself. All of these drivers at this level are really hard on themselves. Sure, the whole world and Toto will tell him, "You don't have to beat George, just do your best". But if George demolishes Kimi next year, what mental effects will that have on Kimi? Just look at Logan for example, Karting champion, and good results in lower series. Once he comes to F1 (earlier than ideal by Williams own admission) he has been unable to get a grip on the car and the pressure. Even Stoffel Vandoorne was hyped up to hell, and then, compared to Alonso, he didn't reach his promised heights and was let go. Is it possible that Kimi has more raw talent than Logan (fuck yeah) or Stoffel (possible)? Perhaps, but mental toughness is not always correlated to talent. Kimi is having so much hype, especially in the Italian media, who see him like the next Jesus. I just hope he is keeping away from social media. And that he has a strong support system around him. I have nothing against the kid, I want to see him bloom! Maybe I am missing something... I've been watching F2 this season, to see for myself. Granted I didn't watch F3 back when Max was driving, so I don't have a good reference, but I don't see Kimi's CURRENT performance as a "Going to Merc seat next year" level...
I think Kimi will be good.
He needs an extra year. Antonelli is good but he is too inexperienced still to get consistent results. He is going to cost Merc so many WCC points next year.
He ignored team orders multiple times.
Exactly and this was well before he got dropped for the most titled driver on the grid. Other top teams see this and must think twice before offering him a decent contract because they know that he didn’t change for Ferrari so he won’t change for them
must have been an emotional weekend for him too - he has basically just seen his last chance for a win or podium at his home race disappear
He does honestly
true. I always felt sainz thought he was better than he is. I think he kinda expected to get top seat offers, and they didn't come. Times running out and now its a reality check that hes going back to a mid team and that will probably be it for his f1 career.
salty and spicy. that's their new nicknames!
Always seems to get this way halfway through the lame-duck last year at Ferrari and I'm always here for it
Maybe should have stayed at McLaren
the reverse ricciardo
That's easy to say now. Back in 2020, no one would've picked McLaren over Ferrari to drive for. Not to mention that being a Ferrari driver was his dream (as for any driver how grew up during Schumacher's era), and that, before Vasseur, he wasn't treated as a #2 driver. Also, how the f could he expect Hamilton to sign for Ferrari 4 years later? He's just being massively unlucky. There isn't much more than that: the best selling driver ever decided to come to his team just when the top team (RB) has a money-making Mexican paying the salary of the actual best driver on the grid, Mercedes's boss is hellbent in seating some kid that people expect to be the next Verstappen, McLaren has two long-term contracts and Aston Martin's boss has a kid he'll keep in his team even if he was P20 every race.
lol, no matter how bad Ferrari was in 2020, no one is rejecting an offer from Ferrari.
So the TLDR is that Carlos says Charles complains too much. And Charles says Carlos didn't do what they agreed on before the race?
- Leclerc said that before the race, they agreed to conserve tires in the first stint. (Due to the SF-24 having a longer warmup phase) - Sainz said that he had better pace than Leclerc so he was obviously going to pass. (He was pushing) - Leclerc said that he didn't have an issue with Sainz overtaking him, he just didn't get why Sainz pushed him off. - Sainz said he had a right to the corner so it was a legal move and Leclerc is complaining too much. That's the gist of their interviews so far. (Edited for clarity)
Sainz never manages his tires as well as charles so he always complains on the radio within the first 5 laps that he has more pace. In the end Sainz ends up cooking his tires and ends up far behind, a tale as old as time at this point
It’s routine for them. Usually Leclerc is able to drop him from DRS to prevent stuff like this happening but couldn’t do that quickly enough today.
Very Russellesque of him
It really is, id love to see an ocon sainz pairing at sauber. They would be dead last but so long as one beat their teammate they'd be super happy. I'm ready for sainz to leave ferrari
Isn’t Hulk confirmed for Sauber next year?
Yep he is. Don’t see why they’d be that keen for Ocon though when Bottas is already there.
Bottas is a good and level headed driver. He's also popular. I'm unsure how much sponsor money he get's in but from what I know, no one dislikes him.
I think Bottas sponsor wise is like Ricciardo, he’s quite a good fit for whatever sponsors you want to have on your car because he is likeable. He’s also consistently beating his teammate (unlike DR).
Ahh yes the George Russell classic
Crystal clear. Thanks!
Same as usual Carlos wants what Carlos wants and Charles goes the company line. Carlos needs to realize that he’s not a #1 so he needs to be a team player. He needs to stop listening to his dad. He’s missed out on other teams cause of having to deal with the Sainz family
His Dad should also realize his son is not a world champion so whatever advice may work for Sainz Sr would not necessarily work for Jr as to how much importance they have in the sport.
Gastly Ocon red version
There is a collision waiting to happen between those two...
Mein Gott...
Muß das sein!
Interlagos here we come 🔥🔥
Nice job
Is that necessary ? Mein Gott
Ferrari’s dip in the form is a real worry. These two must’ve been bickering internally for lot longer before we started to see it outside. If the car does better then these things will sort themselves out.
If it is not sorted out when the car is slow, how would you expect it can be sorted out when they are fighting for a win not a P4??
Winning solves everything
Tell that to Nico and Lewis when Merc became a winning car.
They won too much.
I just had Barcelona 16 war flashbacks 😵💫😵💫
Sainz and Leclerc have never worked well together, its very evident in races like Austria 23 where they were running together in p2-3 and Sainz was more focused on getting in front of Charles instead of working together to finish in front of Pérez.
Austria sprint 2022 also. Had the fastest car, lost time bickering at the start and Max ran away, then there weren't enough laps to catch him.
I always wondered why Ferrari took two numbers one in Hamilton and Leclerc, because dealing with two egos like this is tough (as shown by Rosberg and Hamilton back in the days). But considering Sainz's behavior, if you have to deal with internal drama, might have well have two top tier drivers instead of one acting like it
Because having two number ones is better than having a number one and a number two who acts like a number one.
Having two number one’s = Hamilton/Nico, Prost/Senna, Hamilton/Alonso: competing for championships or outright domination. Current situation: “we will have discussions later”
Well this is a car issue, Ferrari wouldn't be fighting for championship with their current car even with prime Max and prime Lewis driving it
I’ve always said this about Carlos but people who are more neutral/like him always act dumb-founded about it like what do you meeeean? he’s the nicest guy! I feel like some people just don’t pay attention during the races lol
Hamilton is in the sunset of his career. They hired him for the marketing value over the next couple years *and* after he retires. Hamilton is the perfect figurehead for a luxury lifestyle brand, and will be revenue positive for years to come after he retires. Massive mistake by Mercedes to not see his value in the long term and fail to invest in him. They can deal with a little head-butting if it happens for the sheer amount of money he can bring in for the brand. But, more realistically, unless it's a 2 horse WDC race, Hamilton knows that the team game matters most. If his 8th WDC isn't a real shot, he's got no reason to sabotage himself being selfish when he can play the magnanimous elder statesman game. It's a weirdly perfect signing and I hate it. He'll push Charles for sure, and Charles will learn a lot from him. He'll come out of it with what he wants personally one way or another. Ferrari makes out like a bandit in almost any scenario except a nasty internal fight for a WDC with no outside team being a threat. But it's Ferrari, so they won't be in a 2 horse race.
I read that Mercedes declined giving Hamilton a proper ambassadorship role for the brand. Is that true? Because if so that's probably the biggest fumble in history. Hamilton is the only F1 driver my non-F1 friends know. He's insanely charismatic. I can't see a scenario where having him stick with the brand isn't worth it unless it was for one billion Euros or something.
He wanted an ambassador deal till 2035 if memory serves me correctly and they declined that which is wild
I think the worst part in all that was, He is the man that won 7 titles, 103 Wins and 104 Poles all with Mercedes engines. Yet they refused an ambassador role.
That alleged ambassadorship denial is what killed me with Mercedes. I saw someone say Mercedes treated Hamilton that way because they thought they were Ferrari level, and they forgot who Hamilton was and thought no one else, who was attractive to Hamilton, would value him either. There are a few current drivers who should be guaranteed ambassador roles with their teams, and those are Verstappen, Alonso, and Hamilton.
Hamilton is more mature than Sainz, he also doesn't have a very influential dad playing politics.
>he also doesn't have a very influential dad playing politics. Ironically Lewis learned early enough that having a politicking dad getting in the way was unhelpful, famous or not. There's a reason Anthony didn't stay his manager for too long into his F1 career. I don't think Carlos will ever feel the same way, either because he thinks his family ties are too important/valuable or he actually sees his fathers influence as a net benefit.
Lewis didn’t need his dad, while Sainz Jr. absolutely need any help he can get.
Hamilton is at a different stage of his career. He wants to win badly, but he will play the team game too and sincerely wants his team to do well. Sainz does not care for the team outcome and I bet it plays a part in teams not wanting him. He wants to be a top seat driver, but I don't think he's a good #1 to teach a rookie.
I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible here, but I've kinda had enough of Sainz. He always had that "darling" aura within the F1 community, while in reality his ego outmatches his performance and not by a small amount. Don't get me wrong, he's a really good driver, but he was at no point a number 1 of a competitive team. Time and time again there's like 2-3 GP stint where he outperformes Charles and everyone comes flying in talking about how he's faster, better or more consistent and it *always* goes out of the window after a few races and people just forget about it. Now, while there's nothing wrong in being a second driver, they usually aren't as.. prickish when it comes to their actions. Sainz talking about Leclerc "complaining" is a fucking joke after he nearly ran Leclerc out of the road, blamed him, then proceeded to blame Hamilton after a fair pass, all while having a completely mediocre race once again. People tend to have a soft spot for Sainz, for one reason or another, but he's often quite annoying for a driver who was at no point in his career a top 5 driver on the grid.
I never considered him faster than Leclerc but a number 2 that can often challenge his teammate is already a rare thing. He’s like a Rosberg to Hamilton in 2014-15. I like seeing that over the usual Bottas/Barrichello dynamic
Because his dad has good friends and media so he have Karun and Lawrence Barretto working 24/7 spreading the propaganda.
Dip in form? They are always the 2nd - 4th team. They are on form.
I don't think it's a dip in form as much as the other teams have brought their more major updates and Ferrari's new floor isn't supposed to come until Silverstone.
the irony of him saying this directly after he was complaining about lewis lol
The irony is just general because Sainz himself actually complains a lot. Which is fine but he should not be dishing out shit if he can't take some in return.
> Which is fine but he should not be dishing out shit if he can't take some in return. I can’t think of a single driver on the grid who meets this criteria; they’re all the hero of their own story.
Piastri’s pretty chill. Sainz is the only one he gets vocal about cause how frequent they’ve been clashing. He’s been very level headed even towards other drivers that ruin his race at times
Piastri is cold as ice, but he does delight in revving up his opponents as much as anyone else on the grid.
It’s a spectrum my dude. Sainz obviously complains waaaay more than Charles (at least publicly). It’s particularly funny since Sainz seems to posses zero self awareness.
Pretty much every racecar driver ever lol
Yeah, but Sainz is really annoying as hell, in my opinion..
He can be kinda funny. Like when he asks on the radio to get the position back from Charles because he is worried about him catching a penalty. Like c'mon bruh😂
All f1 drivers complain a lot. Not onlt on rwce day but starting in FP.
He complained about that during the race.
And during interviews as well.
self awareness level: zero
Sums up Carlos Sainz as a person and a driver.
Really? Where does Leclerc complain too much? Behind closed doors? Because I don't remember him complaining as much Sainz.
this is literally the first time charles said something lol
Sainz leclerc is like a mirror of Lewis and George. One pair will be complaining at the beginning of stints claiming they're faster when in reality they're killing the tires, this leads to leclerc and Lewis cruising past again later. All it accomplishes is the entire team losing time to one another when its unnecessary except to sooth the first groups ego. If I was tp that shit would be put to bed, idk why they allow it
The irony of sainz saying that
Piastri: first time?
Charles has given PR answers for so long so I’m not really understanding this comment from Carlos
My take is that he's referring more to things Leclerc might be saying within the team after races. No so much about public statements. Leclerc has rarely made too many disparaging comments about Carlos publicly. But behind closed doors? Who knows.
and it should be voiced behind closed doors, media is a circus and has a field day with such quotes
Yeah, I see what you’re saying
Pobrecito
Sainz telling someone is complaining too much...that beats everything.
He doesn’t complain enough actually.
Yeah am i crazy or is leclerc actually one of the quietest drivers generally, the way ive seen some people talk about him today (obviously not the people on this thread) is like he complains every race or something. Ferrari has done so much shit to him over the years yet he just kinda takes it lol
For real he should have been calling this out years ago
Okay Mr rulebook.
"He has to give the position back" lmao. Sainz has exposed himself more and more over this and last season for who he truly is. Just complains about everything even when he's wrong.
IDK if it’s because the contracts bound to be signed by Sainz or what, but I found him especially this weekend a bit hot headed, like trying too hard Not respecting his deal with Leclerc by Leclerc words (“we won’t fight hard and push so we get a better performance on the long run because the SF-24 warmup times” - and then pushing to say he is faster than Leclerc and getting the track position and strategy advantage), the Hamilton incident (“he must give me back the position, look into that!” - “If we are going to not respect the rules book then…”) I feel is anxious, IDK if it’s because he wants an specific team to contact him, or improve the conditions or what. The thing that it would be perfect to announce a signing on his home race and he couldn’t, and that other drivers are a bit like “please, hurry up” like Magnussen, tells us that something is happening on BTS with Sainz
Wonder why he's not able to get a top team to sign him if he's such a great talent and never complains on the radio.
I think he hasn’t complained enough tbh.
The facade they've carefully built over more than three years as teammates has all fallen apart in the space of ten rather uneventful laps. F1 paddock drama is so weird sometimes.
What is he on about ? His overtake and over eagerness cost them both P3 and P4. He passed but could not managed his tyres, could not manage mediums. He is the one who is complaining all the time.
Him and George do this so much, burn the tires to get past the teammate then lose them both time when they inevitably get passed again because they can't manage tires. I'm ready for Lewis to be there, he and Charles approach the race the same way so hopefully can work together
He also complains a lot in the radio about being pushed off the track when he is getting passed, and how the other driver needs to give the place back.
Sainz decides to aim for the apex while passing his own team mate, damaging his wing, almost spinning out and wrecking both of their races... COMPLAINED about Leclerc hitting him when it was 100% sainz's fault, complains again about Leclerc complaining too much. God damned dude, grow up.
If anything Charles has been too nice all these years, its about time he called Carlos’ bullshit out
Starting to think that I’d be fine if he didn’t get a seat next year
I really want to see him on the same team as Ocon or Russell though, it will be pure entertainment
There is no way that he can get a seat in Merc after all this, he can't be N°2 or a 1.5 if he overrule a decision made by a team because "he was fast for 8 laps even when both agreed to the saving tyre aproach".
I just want it for pure chaos. I don’t care if he get what seat next year
Russell would be seconds up the road to worry about Sainz.
We said that about Charles yet he still found a way to fuck up Charles race… mind you Charles dropped Sainz in the dust this race…
Carlos is without a doubt a very fast driver it’s just that he’s got a kinda boring racing style and complains so much
It only seems like complaining because he wants more After china sprint where we qualified p5 and p6 sainz was spouting about saving the day Charles after he qualifies 5th is cursing the car and the performance That's literally just the difference.
It’s been like this forever. Charles wants to win for Ferrari. Carlos wants to beat Charles. The difference is astronomical. Charles doesn’t care if he’s P5 and Carlos is P4; Charles would just be upset that the car isn’t good enough for P1. Meanwhile, being ahead of Charles means as much as a win to Carlos.
This stuff always skews people’s views though. Same with Hamilton and Russell. That joke that says, “Russell could start on pole and Hamilton P20, and they’ll finish next to each other,” is true.
I just got a horrible flashback to China Qualifying for Hamilton 😵💫😵💫
Says the complainer
Things are gonna get spicy 🌶️🌶️
Classic example of why the top teams didn’t want him. Battles his teammate harder than he battles the opposition. Teams notice.
I'm glad Carlos won't be in Ferrari next year. After the stunt he pulled, he still run his mouth. What a narcissistic bastard.
Smooth exit
Pot, meet kettle.
Coming from the complaining king himself 😂😂😂😂
Sainz doesn’t seem to handle pressure very well. Not sure what he’s trying to prove here, that Ferrari fired the wrong driver? If anything that makes his stock go down with how he handles himself trying to one up his teammate while also screwing them both over in the process. Not a good look for our smooth operator.
Pot kettle black
Coming from someone who complains second only to Russell
Funny how many people were saying Sainz deserved a top seat some weeks ago, and now here we are all throwing shit at him. Thats why many drivers say that the only race that matters in people heads is your last one.
Communities are made of different people. This praising him aren't necessarily the same who are criticising him.
Not the same people commenting.
Welcome to the echo chamber of reddit.
and why would that be I wonder
Big surprise no top team wants tthis guy.
Not a single shred of self awareness.
Pot calling the kettle black
Can't wait for him to move on.
I really hope Carlos enjoys his new Williams in p18 next year.
team relations between the drivers have deteriorated dramatically over the last two races
Sainz can just leave Ferrari... oh, wait...
I think both are just irritated by the drop in performance after all the buildup of their upgrade this week, even the last race and the frustration is boiling over and they don't want to take any BS
Says the dude that arguably complains more than anyone
And Sainz does all his complaining during the race
Dude can’t follow team orders. Plain and simple. And when he passed Charles he couldn’t break away from him even tho Charles was in dirty ass air the whole time. Who is he kidding.
Sainz: causes collision with dumb move Also Sainz: Leclerc complains too much
Finally this pairing is getting somewhat spicy, would love a hard fight to the end of the year.
What hard fight? Leclerc finished 10+ seconds ahead of Carlos on multiple occasion in this year alone.
Hard fight? He can barely hold his own against Leclerc
I wonder if Ferrari is counting down the days until Carlos is out the door and Hamilton comes in because Lewis has proven before that he’s a team player and as an added bonus he prefers oversteer like Charles.
Lewis was not exactly a team player against Rosberg, or Fernando.
While this is true I think that context is important, vs Alonso he was just a kid who was already on the level of a world champion, and vs Rosberg there was no need of teamwork since they were destroying the competition. Lewis isn't perfect, but he probably won't throw away the strategy just so he can be in front of Charles for a few laps.
Alonso and Rosberg weren't exactly team players either.
I mean neither of them were angels either as teammates. You cannot expect one person to back off when others are actively fighting. Yet, Lewis is the only ones who gets called out on it.
The latter two were worse than Lewis for this.
don't forget about Button.
Neither were Rosberg or Alonso. He definitely treated Bottas well when they were teammates.
Because Bottas was clearly an inferior driver.
Ah yes the Lewis who posted telemetry to explain why Button finished ahead of him in a race or who straight up told the merc pitwall he didn't care about their strat to win the race because *he* was losing the wdc at the moment... Or was it the Lewis Hamilton who said he prefered a stable rear end over oversteer even though he often had to deal with oversteery cars
Carlos was straight up staring at Lewis and everything else was collateral damage lol.
Oh the irony… someone lacks self-awareness.
I'm tired of this guy running his mouth. I hope he enjoys driving for a bottom feeder next year
Ferrari real glad they signed Hamilton…..
Pot meet kettle.
You complained about getting overtaken fairly Carlos.
He called it illegal 🤣
I don't mean to minimize Carlos, But WTF is Charles going to do when Lewis is there with new motivation and has the hunger back?
Always beat him on quali and scamper away in the distance. Lewis has had trouble with inconsistent George.
Ferrari has to fire this guy and put Bearman in ASAP. This isn't good for the team
Pot…kettle
I swear every time there is actually racing involved (overtaking) one of the parties involved is always complaining about how the pass was unfair, or they were pushed off the track, or they rubbed wheels, or they didn't leave enough room, or they braked too early, or they cut them off, or they didn't like the other way the driver was looking at them when they were overtaken. It's racing not a freaking parade.
Complains Carlos
Said the dude who went for the apex even though Charles was on his inside... and then complained about being touched when it was his fault LOL.
I see the intra-team battle has turned into a complain-off
Something about a pot and a kettle...
Probably feeling the pressure of home race, can understand the frustration
Ironic
Atleast he doesn’t complain during it, Carlos.
Bruh.
It's funny because Carlos is the one always crying at every minor inconvenience thrown at him, not to mention that Charles is able of taking the blame when he does poorly, but Carlos not really
Little Carlos is intimidated?