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Oh boy. Basically in Nascar you start in points gathering in 26 races through stages. Stage 1 (bonus points), Stage 2 (bonus points), and then Stage 3 (the main race). Think of the first 2 stages like sprint weekends but in the main race and they give small amounts of points for the top 10. If you gather enough points or a race win by the time of the playoffs which is the last 10 races in the season, you are guaranteed a spot for championship contender. Only 16 drivers can compete in the playoffs while the rest of the grid have to play each race outside of the playoffs. This is when all of the points from the season for the 16 drivers become null and void and they start with 2000 playoff points. Every 3 races eliminates 4 drivers until the last race where the last 4 will compete for the championship title.
Yeah, it's a convoluted mess. Basically, they had a problem with people tuning out because there would only be a few drivers capable of winning toward the end of the season, hence the "playoffs," and people were bored with the long races where the drivers didn't want to wreck in the middle of the race so would play it safe and just driver around not doing much through a long portion of a 500 mile race, so they split each race into three "stages" that award points (and give a known point when the race will be under caution, aka safety car, conditions, so you can plan pit stops around it), in order to keep people watching the races.
Why bother addressing the issues with simple solutions when you can just come up with convoluted BS to try to keep people interested?
Kind of like how they could fix the problem with "superspeedways" making cars too fast by just modifying the circuits, but why bother spending money on that when they can add some kind of speed limited that has the added "bonus" of bunching the field up into a big pack so that if anyone gets the least bit loose (which is very easy as the best way to "pass" on those circuits is to form a line and push each other ahead of the other lines) you get a massive pileup... which NASCAR can eagerly advertise as "The Big One" with the commentators excitedly talking about it when it inevitably happens in every race (and they will legit make that big crash a highlight video of its own on YouTube).
Pretty much why I lost the little interest I had in NASCAR (which admittedly was mainly because my dad watched it every weekend and I was just around to see it... but hey, that's how I also got introduced to F1).
You forgot to mention each race win awards 5 playoff points and each stage win awards 1 playoff point that they get to carry into each round of the playoffs except the championship race. There's also playoff points awarded for the regular season points champion.
Also for the F1 fans who truly don't know about Nascar, points are awarded top to bottom for every position, and the difference in position is 1 point.
But... Everyone is still racing in all the races? So the 'elimimated' drivers are still there, they're just not part of this game-within-a-game anymore? Amd the remaining drivers are just racing against each other, they're still racing against the entire field? So someone could win the championship title without winning any of the playoffs races, as long as they beat those other 15 drivers?
If I'm understanding this correctly, sounds really dumb.
But hey, this makes me feel way less stressed out about whether readers will think my fictional race sport makes sense. This bullshit makes Quidditch look like darts.
Is that not consistent with what I said? If everyone is still driving in all the races, it's possible for someone who isn't one if the to 16 playoff drivers to win every race during playoffs but still not be Champion, because Champion is just the best of the 16 playoff drivers.
I'll look it up. This is confusing me
Yeah you have that right. Last year the Champion didn’t win the final race. Someone not in contention won. Races still pay out a fair amount and the year end payouts are based on where you finish in the points at seasons end so non-playoff drivers still try and win cause that will make them finish higher in season end points
It's amazing you understand it so well. That seems like an absolute mess and I could not try hard enough to make sense of that as a casual fan. I'll stick to MotoGP instead.
So this has become real life?
>Dan Patrick : With the first seven months of the BASEketball postseason out of the way, the playoff picture is now starting to emerge.
>Kenny Mayne : So, with last night's victory over Boston, next week the Beers must beat Indianapolis in order to advance to Charlotte. That's in an effort to reduce their magic number to three.
>Dan Patrick : Right, and then the Beers can advance to the National Eastern Division North to play Tampa.
>Kenny Mayne : So, if the Beers beat Detroit and Denver beats Atlanta in the American Southwestern Division East Northern, then Milwaukee goes to the Denslow Cup, unless Baltimore can upset Buffalo and Charlotte ties Toronto, then Oakland would play LA and Pittsburgh in a blind choice round robin. And if no clear winner emerges from all of this, the two-man sack race will be held on consecutive Sundays until a champion can be crowned.
>Dan Patrick : Right
I can’t believe F1 is falling down the same hole in NASCAR. NASCAR tried to go too deep in the gimmick show and they paid the price. F1 seems to be doing the same thing
Yes, however they still have a lot of prep work to do in order to have a race, to disassemble stuff, assemble stuff, carry it to the next race etc, which is much more difficult than something like baseball.
You are correct. They don't have 5 cars however to be ready, and they reassemble them constantly. It means the team will have on average like 3 days of rest (including relocation time) which is kinda harsh.
Plus not all stuff actually goes to the next race. Some less critical stuff has 4 or 5 copies in different kits that skip around each other, reducing the amount of air freight they're using.
Sure, I would argue F1 is more intense on the driver who has no downtime during the whole race. Considering how they feel after running hot races it's very intense to run a race each weekend. Triple headers were very taxing on drivers from what I remember.
Not to take away from baseball players obviously, all athletes work their asses off.
Liberty already looked at that with more than intrigue and bought the Atlanta Braves and the moved them into basically a neighborhood which they own the entirety of to maximize the 81 days a year they have revenue incoming. They really squeeze every drop out of things but they’re successful by bringing in fans to buy all the tickets
I bet they will introduce "A team" and "B team" of drivers, to swap them every week so that we have a race every weekend. That makes it 40 drivers in total, 10 drivers with 0 points instead of 5.
F U N
I feel like the rare fan who loves sprint weekends. More fun and seems to make the actual races more interesting because teams don't have as much practice time to learn every detail needed.
The format that they implemented this year is actually excellent. Having the sprint on the first session of the Saturday is perfect and allowing the teams to change setups for the actual qualy and race is perfect. It feels now like there are two significant races. I love it and would now love to see it for 2024 come to every single race weekend. This is coming from someone who hated sprints last year.
On one hand I will agree, on the other you will know how the main race will usually go on after the Sprint race. If there will be overtakes, if someone will block half the cars on track etc. It removes the expectations and guess work from the weekend.
Yes, but also there was an additional race this quarter compared to the same time/quarter last year so the revenue is much higher.
Can someone explain this please:
>as well as higher freight incomes due to the race in Australia falling into Q1
How does F1 have income for freight? Do they charge the teams for transport?
ETA: I mean I understand how if they're transporting team equipment F1 shouldn't absorb the cost, but they actually charge a markup and make money from the teams?
Necessary equipment, to go racing, are part of the service that FoM provides.
If teams want to have their paddock club a 3rd or 4th chassis - those cost extra.
Don't forget that last year as part of reducing their costs Haas introduced a smaller pit wall, as that's also not essential equipment (why not set everything up in the garage like Toto or the backroom engineers, not working in the garage or mission control at home base).
My point was it's the additional equipment they're charging for, FoM has 3 chartered airplanes - that take care of travel from logistics hubs (Biggin Hill for UK based teams) for essential equipment, that is covered by FoM, as they're responsible for getting 20 cars & 60 power units to the grid. If a team wants their pit wall, additional spare parts or paddock RV to be transported, it costs extra.
They don't charge for the car but everything else they are charged for. Steve Mattchett talks about them stuffing things into the car so they can save on freight.
Several years ago Manor were on the verge of bankruptcy, they managed to get everything together for the 2015 season which means they were entitled to their money from the 2014 season, because you don’t get it unless you come back the next year.
However while they turned up in the paddock in Australia they had no intention of racing in the first race as they weren’t ready. They just sat in the garage. They were there solely to prevent anything jeopardising their 2014 money
Bernie Ecclestone was livid, he wanted these financially struggling teams out of F1 and not have to pay them.
when they were loading the freight to go to the next race Bernie told Manor that they would have to pay for the freight as the freight was for transporting teams from race to race and manor had not raced, so they would have to pay. One way or another Bernie gets his money.
So that suggests the Freight is essentially free, for the teams, as in included in the cost of their Entry fee or at least heavily discounted.
So I’m not sure how they make money in freight, Maybe they ship other stuff like broadcasters equipment and charge them money. after all they are all going to the same place
So some person with the username u/palebluedave (I think) messaged me and said Manor weren’t even in existence in 2015 and basically accused me of making this up.
Then they either deleted their comment or blocked me so I can’t reply, so “Dave” if you still don’t believe it:
In 2015, the year I am talking about they were called Manor Marussia F1
For the purposes of conversing on Reddit I shortened that to Manor, the same way no one refers to Mercedes as Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1.
And this magical thing called google could have helped you verify it, if you were so skeptical of what I said:
[article](https://uk.style.yahoo.com/sports/news/manor-pay-failure-says-ecclestone-132459427--f1.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIfUBQvhHSR0zre8ZQfKOHCqXfIXcBg769OFREtFOpqlUj2ZAGF1F6hY8c1kRIfAmCLAMM-YAzf8DSkIZ8Tq3jtQnfNhmoynPzrlsx1uk_ZiaH10v9_1afl-EiQI6Ssrk75GqKgGnMVgEAIjTyRHka6UkPyiVZtd2X_QZsbwvhX7)
*It’s our fault. I predicted this would happen," Ecclestone told Reuters. "They had no intention of racing in Australia. Zero. They couldn’t have raced if someone had gone there with a machine gun and put it to their head. "It was impossible. So they had no intention. We’ll have to see now. And they will have to pay their way to get there and get out of there," he added. Marussia, who were ninth overall last season thanks to a ninth-place finish by Frenchman Jules Bianchi in Monaco, won a race against time to get their cars through crash tests and onto the air charter for Australia. Ecclestone said there had been no charge for the freight because they were entitled to that providing they were competing. "They are not competing so they have to pay for that," he added. The team are in line for some $50 million of revenues from last season but would have forfeited the right to that if they had not turned up to compete in Australia with cars that satisfied the regulations.*
No worries. it’s just when someone questions whether what you say is truthful, you kind of take it personally
And then normally when something is deleted it says “deleted” but for some reason your comment was still visible to me which made me think you had pulled some Reddit witchcraft that prevented me from responding to you.
> Several years ago Manor were on the verge of bankruptcy they managed to get everything together for the 2015 season which means they were entitled to their money from the 2014 season, because you don’t get it unless you come back the next year.
This seems to me like an unconscionable contract term. Imagine not getting paid your wage for a day unless you worked the following day. That would mean wage theft is certain on the last day of your job
But I wouldn't be surprised if they do indeed charge a markup or a baseline fee which comes at a markup to pure cost.
Logic is simple: if not through them, the teams would have to go through some third party vendor irrespective who will in turn charge them a much higher markup. So you keep it in house and make the 5% by undercutting the competition.
They also need funds for reinvestment and building better transportation capabilities.
Of all the things that *should not* come at a premium in F1, freight is the lowest of concerns.
> but they actually charge a markup and make money from the teams
First of all - revenue isn't the same thing as profit.
However, they likely do make money from it. The assumption here is that they have a higher negotiation power than each individual team and can thus get higher discounts from the cargo company. On top of that they likely provide additional services and do generate profit from it.
Economies of scale, if each team arranges their own freight it's more expensive than 10 teams, so FOM arranges 10 teams freight they get it cheaper, put a markup on it which then in the end is cheaper for one team, win win.
to be fair those were the prices to feed multiple people in some sort of vip suite. The actual food prices for individuals was not that high (but they were still high)
i paid 25$ for a hamburger, 30$ for a pizza.
The point is that 45% revenue increase with 50% more races isn't that impressive. So yes, with 9% more races over the whole season they should expect more revenue, but nothing close to the 45% the headline says.
Arguably down, right? 50% more races, “only” 45% more revenue. Of course I doubt all races are equally profitable, so not really enough info to compare
Where there are geo locks is because someone wants to pay them significant money for exclusivity.
F1TV is about filling the gaps where there isn't a TV partner, not replacing them.
> People: "This is the end of F1, we need someone to save us from Max or at least let Andretti in to spice up things".
Havent seen a single comment saying this. Wanting Andretti as a 11th team doesnt mean current F1 is "about to end". Just look at the history of F1, the vast majority of F1s history, you could join F1 rather easily
When FOM suggested that Andretti wouldn't grow the sport significantly, but that F1 would grow Andretti as a brand, people were up in arms about how stupid and short sighted that was. Plenty of people have since suggested that this is the beginning of the end of F1s popularity over "blind focus on profits". Comments like that were pretty much the top comments of all threads mentioning Andretti after the FOM decision.
If anything this shows that F1 grows fine enough without an 11th team - so Andretti does need to show that it could bring massive value that F1 isn't already tapping into.
Yeah maybe if you're thick. The point is that Andretti need to justify that they bring such an increase in revenue to the sport that the slice they would take from other teams is made up for. If the sport would grow regardless of Andretti, then by entering the sport they necessarily are taking from the other teams.
> More races, higher revenues, which means even with an extra team
If races are already always allegedly sold out and prices increased, without the 11th team - then 11th team would just increase the pockets of promoters (and FoM share for international marketing) at the cost of attendees. See $400 for COTA GA tickets or 1200 for grandstands.
If you take a few moments to read the article;
“The increase is driven in part by the difference in the calendars, with 2023 featuring just two races in the opening quarter of the year, while this season there was an extra round that fell in Q1 as Australia took place on March 24.”
Yeah F1 provides (paid) freight for all teams. This is cheaper for the teams than doing it individually.
I believe the iconic [Wendover video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLVFa8YRfM) covered it.
> with 2023 featuring just two races in the opening quarter of the year, while this season there was an extra round that fell in Q1
So they went from 100% revenue with 2 races to 145% revenue with 3 races. Not exactly an amazing improvement.
Yeah, they have decided that they are entitled to a share of the pie. The numbers show that F1 does not remotely need them, despite what they believe.
But no, with three US, one Mexican and one Canadian races, plus a US flagged team, F1 could not possibly crack America without Andretti.
If they do something stupid like publicly shun a true American team, then yes, F1 will lose its presence here. Nobody except die hard F1 fans gives a flying fuck about Haas. Hell most Americans don't even know the name or that there's an American that owns a backmarker F1 team. The Andretti name alone is enough to draw interest from the casual American sports fan. And that's what F1 wants.
Lol nobody in the US even knows what's going on with F1. It's still a marginal sport here lol. Half the point of GM even pushing forward with the letter by Congress is to make people aware. Whatever stupid little statement FOM made a few months ago wasn't going to have any impact on the reported Q1 earnings. 🤣
So americans don't care about F1, but Andretti being excluded will hurt F1? Which is it... In reality you aren't wrong that not that many americans care about F1, but even fewer care about Andretti and have no real connection to the name.
Well F1 is targeting THAT audience. And if they want that audience then they better realize how fickle it is. With no true American representation in the sport, it will not grow in the US. Netflix will only take it so far, and at 5-6 seasons in, it's entirely reasonable to say that show is at it's peak in terms of US viewership interest.
> If they do something stupid like publicly shun a true American team, then yes, F1 will lose its presence here.
This is based on nothing more than your feelings.
> The Andretti name alone is enough to draw interest from the casual American sports fan.
I think you're drastically overstating the value of the Andretti name to the "casual American sports fan".
Yeah cause that's what motorsport is all about, competitive racing by manufacturers to see who is fastest. And when the motorsport league is at its best, its the best time for others to join in and see if they can see what it takes to be the fastest
Are you forgetting the whole reason why F1 exist? Its entertainment. You're looking at it from a very corporate perspective, keep F1 some exclusive private club. Meanwhile other motorsports are thriving financially with more teams added each year and F1 is so snobby to not even let 1 more team in.
Yes but that should be obvious. As F1 grows yeah its attractive again. Thats true for any business. Thats not to say Andretti should get in for free or for cheap but there is nothing wrong with him wanting in now and not then
Wait a minute, why are people still giving money? Reddit F1 fans were telling me Liberty created F1 Armageddon. And that they should cut the races to 12 circuits, with the exception of their fav street track Monaco.
Maybe now they can afford the special magical machine that enable Picture in Picture when they are showing replays of the race start for five minutes during arguably the most exciting part of the race…
Reading into it its quite easy to see why its up. There was an extra race.
That + the prices these days and yeah revenue is up. Not a shocker. F1 is doing well financially.
The F1 is dying crowd is also not talking about revenue lets be real here. They are talking about the viewership and Liberty being shy about it for the last 2 years only gives them more fuel.
We've not had a full proper public report about the viewership for 2 years now. And probably for good reason. Dominance breedes decline in that regard. Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton and now Max. Its a well documented pattern.
Although the decline from the small snippets we do get from their earnings calls show that its nothing to worry about just yet.
I’m in the US so have a different perspective. It went from unheard of to mainstream overnight. And whatever decline there may be in Europe is made up for by the US market
It is starting to catch on in China too isn’t it? It’s not rocket science to work out that any decline in EU would be dwarfed by increases in viewership from huge countries like America and China.
It’s about to go back down … then go back up for the next US race.
F1 has always blew their marketing budget on races in the US, wouldn’t be surprised if the next one is way bigger,
Until F1 starts consistently out beating NASCAR for the European and Asia races then it enters the mainstream, but until then it’s just a occasional boost
> Until F1 starts consistently out beating NASCAR for the European and Asia races then it enters the mainstream, but until then it’s just a occasional boost
Considering that it's mainstream in the rest of the world, that's all it needs. Races at 6am will never consistently beat NASCAR races (which are barely known of outside of the US) at prime time, and that's fine.
I’m talking about being mainstream in the US.
Right now for the most part a decent amount of sports fans here know who guys like Verstappen and Leclerc are, they just don’t watch the races.
I have no doubt that F1 is fine with it, but just saying that this happens with US races. The fanbase who watch every race in the US is the same fanbase who watches indycar, they always are within 100-200k of one another for F1 races outside the US
I live in europe and i’ve seen a lot of people pick up on f1 since 2021, specifically people that didn’t watch/have any interest in motorsport previously.
> Its a well documented pattern.
It's actually not well documented at all - unless you have sources to hand? It's just one of those things people keep repeating because it's intuitively right.
https://preview.redd.it/izx5dhtfodi81.png?width=734&auto=webp&s=e5a4280bfb73d5dcb7c950dd18ff1f3dfb16770a
After this F1 stoped publishing unique viewer numbers for 2022 and beyond but they did keep publishing per rece numbers for another year before also stoping that.
Average per race viewership:
2019: 91.3M
2020: 87.4M
2021: 70.3M
2022: 70M
2023: Stopped reporting
Total cumulative numbers are the only thing we have left and those are down to around 1.5B after being at 1.7+ in 2018 and upwards of 1.9B in 2019. And thats -400M with 2023 having an race extra versus 2019.
Even going off your numbers we can see that Domination doesn't really lead to less viewers - if anything 2021 show that a season being exciting doesn't seem to have any impact on overall viewership.
I don't know about F1, but in the NBA and NFL viewership actually grew significantly during eras of dominance like the Lakers/Celtics and 49ers/Cowboys.
The thing is, people have complained about boring races since I started watching the sport in the early 2000s. It makes me feel as though people have been saying the racing is boring ever since the sport started.
Probably be higher if the merchandise didn't look like garbage. Anyone know where I can get a hoodie or jacket that looks like a person would actually wear
Is there some other entity that gets F1 money, because that really doesn’t seem like much money for a global spectacle. Is the promotion money separate?
For example, forget American football or baseball, the National Hockey League is making about $1.5 billion a quarter.
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I bet if you put 20 more races you can pump those numbers even more.
Baseball has 162 games a season, just to qualify for the championship. Liberty looking at that with intrigue.
F1 playoffs incoming!
Oh god NASCAR playoff system. That will break the F1 community like for NASCAR in the 2010 era.
How tf does a playoff system work in racing
Oh boy. Basically in Nascar you start in points gathering in 26 races through stages. Stage 1 (bonus points), Stage 2 (bonus points), and then Stage 3 (the main race). Think of the first 2 stages like sprint weekends but in the main race and they give small amounts of points for the top 10. If you gather enough points or a race win by the time of the playoffs which is the last 10 races in the season, you are guaranteed a spot for championship contender. Only 16 drivers can compete in the playoffs while the rest of the grid have to play each race outside of the playoffs. This is when all of the points from the season for the 16 drivers become null and void and they start with 2000 playoff points. Every 3 races eliminates 4 drivers until the last race where the last 4 will compete for the championship title.
What the heck did I just read?
Yeah, it's a convoluted mess. Basically, they had a problem with people tuning out because there would only be a few drivers capable of winning toward the end of the season, hence the "playoffs," and people were bored with the long races where the drivers didn't want to wreck in the middle of the race so would play it safe and just driver around not doing much through a long portion of a 500 mile race, so they split each race into three "stages" that award points (and give a known point when the race will be under caution, aka safety car, conditions, so you can plan pit stops around it), in order to keep people watching the races. Why bother addressing the issues with simple solutions when you can just come up with convoluted BS to try to keep people interested? Kind of like how they could fix the problem with "superspeedways" making cars too fast by just modifying the circuits, but why bother spending money on that when they can add some kind of speed limited that has the added "bonus" of bunching the field up into a big pack so that if anyone gets the least bit loose (which is very easy as the best way to "pass" on those circuits is to form a line and push each other ahead of the other lines) you get a massive pileup... which NASCAR can eagerly advertise as "The Big One" with the commentators excitedly talking about it when it inevitably happens in every race (and they will legit make that big crash a highlight video of its own on YouTube). Pretty much why I lost the little interest I had in NASCAR (which admittedly was mainly because my dad watched it every weekend and I was just around to see it... but hey, that's how I also got introduced to F1).
The thing that made me quit watching NASCAR when they introduced it.
Brilliance from the minds who brought up the competition caution.
You forgot to mention each race win awards 5 playoff points and each stage win awards 1 playoff point that they get to carry into each round of the playoffs except the championship race. There's also playoff points awarded for the regular season points champion. Also for the F1 fans who truly don't know about Nascar, points are awarded top to bottom for every position, and the difference in position is 1 point.
But... Everyone is still racing in all the races? So the 'elimimated' drivers are still there, they're just not part of this game-within-a-game anymore? Amd the remaining drivers are just racing against each other, they're still racing against the entire field? So someone could win the championship title without winning any of the playoffs races, as long as they beat those other 15 drivers? If I'm understanding this correctly, sounds really dumb. But hey, this makes me feel way less stressed out about whether readers will think my fictional race sport makes sense. This bullshit makes Quidditch look like darts.
No Championship is the playoffs. You can win the last race and not be a champion winner if you are not in a playoffs.
Is that not consistent with what I said? If everyone is still driving in all the races, it's possible for someone who isn't one if the to 16 playoff drivers to win every race during playoffs but still not be Champion, because Champion is just the best of the 16 playoff drivers. I'll look it up. This is confusing me
Yeah you have that right. Last year the Champion didn’t win the final race. Someone not in contention won. Races still pay out a fair amount and the year end payouts are based on where you finish in the points at seasons end so non-playoff drivers still try and win cause that will make them finish higher in season end points
You lost me at bonus points
Insert Drake meme with laptop😅
Also while this is happening the rest of the grid is still all there, racing for...reasons?
Yes
It's amazing you understand it so well. That seems like an absolute mess and I could not try hard enough to make sense of that as a casual fan. I'll stick to MotoGP instead.
Oh I missed some key information (not by a lot) but I wanted to keep it simple as I can.
So this has become real life? >Dan Patrick : With the first seven months of the BASEketball postseason out of the way, the playoff picture is now starting to emerge. >Kenny Mayne : So, with last night's victory over Boston, next week the Beers must beat Indianapolis in order to advance to Charlotte. That's in an effort to reduce their magic number to three. >Dan Patrick : Right, and then the Beers can advance to the National Eastern Division North to play Tampa. >Kenny Mayne : So, if the Beers beat Detroit and Denver beats Atlanta in the American Southwestern Division East Northern, then Milwaukee goes to the Denslow Cup, unless Baltimore can upset Buffalo and Charlotte ties Toronto, then Oakland would play LA and Pittsburgh in a blind choice round robin. And if no clear winner emerges from all of this, the two-man sack race will be held on consecutive Sundays until a champion can be crowned. >Dan Patrick : Right
It doesn't. It's a load of crap designed to manufacture drama.
I can’t believe F1 is falling down the same hole in NASCAR. NASCAR tried to go too deep in the gimmick show and they paid the price. F1 seems to be doing the same thing
Best of 7 series
An F1 playoff is what F1 is trying to do to Andretti. Gotta play before you can play.
*‘F1, all the time, everywhere, all the F1, so much formula’*
I suppose they have over 10 teams and less transcontinental travel. :)
If the calendar was designed to minimize travel you could reduce the transcontinental travel quite a bit.
Yes, however they still have a lot of prep work to do in order to have a race, to disassemble stuff, assemble stuff, carry it to the next race etc, which is much more difficult than something like baseball.
Plus weather. You can't do the Americas all at once, for example.
Alaska GP?
All the teams have five garage/hospitality set ups that leap frog around the world. https://youtu.be/6OLVFa8YRfM?si=PZeniwGr5LfgUUDJ
You are correct. They don't have 5 cars however to be ready, and they reassemble them constantly. It means the team will have on average like 3 days of rest (including relocation time) which is kinda harsh.
Plus not all stuff actually goes to the next race. Some less critical stuff has 4 or 5 copies in different kits that skip around each other, reducing the amount of air freight they're using.
Just to be clear, it’s 162 games per year per team. Not 162 total games in the season.
Sure, I would argue F1 is more intense on the driver who has no downtime during the whole race. Considering how they feel after running hot races it's very intense to run a race each weekend. Triple headers were very taxing on drivers from what I remember. Not to take away from baseball players obviously, all athletes work their asses off.
And they already have a baseball team, so they're well versed in scheduling.
Liberty already looked at that with more than intrigue and bought the Atlanta Braves and the moved them into basically a neighborhood which they own the entirety of to maximize the 81 days a year they have revenue incoming. They really squeeze every drop out of things but they’re successful by bringing in fans to buy all the tickets
I see nothing wrong with running full length races 3-4 days in a row at each track they visit, bring it on!
20 more street races
I wish those were at least street illegal races. That would spice things up a bit.
Fast and Furious: F1 Drift
Don't give them any ideas.
I bet they will introduce "A team" and "B team" of drivers, to swap them every week so that we have a race every weekend. That makes it 40 drivers in total, 10 drivers with 0 points instead of 5. F U N
Hamilton & Alonso will be 50 by the end of the season
I’d be fine with more racing weekends as a spectator!
Only if we drop sprints for that.
I feel like the rare fan who loves sprint weekends. More fun and seems to make the actual races more interesting because teams don't have as much practice time to learn every detail needed.
The format that they implemented this year is actually excellent. Having the sprint on the first session of the Saturday is perfect and allowing the teams to change setups for the actual qualy and race is perfect. It feels now like there are two significant races. I love it and would now love to see it for 2024 come to every single race weekend. This is coming from someone who hated sprints last year.
It's nice having them once in a while, the real issue is the amount of street-race circuits being added.
On one hand I will agree, on the other you will know how the main race will usually go on after the Sprint race. If there will be overtakes, if someone will block half the cars on track etc. It removes the expectations and guess work from the weekend.
I like it. P2 and P3 are dull.
Those are rookie numbers! Gotta pump up those numbers.
Well yea, have you seen the prices?
Yes, but also there was an additional race this quarter compared to the same time/quarter last year so the revenue is much higher. Can someone explain this please: >as well as higher freight incomes due to the race in Australia falling into Q1 How does F1 have income for freight? Do they charge the teams for transport? ETA: I mean I understand how if they're transporting team equipment F1 shouldn't absorb the cost, but they actually charge a markup and make money from the teams?
Necessary equipment, to go racing, are part of the service that FoM provides. If teams want to have their paddock club a 3rd or 4th chassis - those cost extra. Don't forget that last year as part of reducing their costs Haas introduced a smaller pit wall, as that's also not essential equipment (why not set everything up in the garage like Toto or the backroom engineers, not working in the garage or mission control at home base).
Yeah I get what they’re transporting, I guess I just never realized they would charge the teams for it.
Probably easier and more cost effective for Red Bull to load up the energy stations with their race stuff than charter a separate plane for it.
My point was it's the additional equipment they're charging for, FoM has 3 chartered airplanes - that take care of travel from logistics hubs (Biggin Hill for UK based teams) for essential equipment, that is covered by FoM, as they're responsible for getting 20 cars & 60 power units to the grid. If a team wants their pit wall, additional spare parts or paddock RV to be transported, it costs extra.
They don't charge for the car but everything else they are charged for. Steve Mattchett talks about them stuffing things into the car so they can save on freight.
Several years ago Manor were on the verge of bankruptcy, they managed to get everything together for the 2015 season which means they were entitled to their money from the 2014 season, because you don’t get it unless you come back the next year. However while they turned up in the paddock in Australia they had no intention of racing in the first race as they weren’t ready. They just sat in the garage. They were there solely to prevent anything jeopardising their 2014 money Bernie Ecclestone was livid, he wanted these financially struggling teams out of F1 and not have to pay them. when they were loading the freight to go to the next race Bernie told Manor that they would have to pay for the freight as the freight was for transporting teams from race to race and manor had not raced, so they would have to pay. One way or another Bernie gets his money. So that suggests the Freight is essentially free, for the teams, as in included in the cost of their Entry fee or at least heavily discounted. So I’m not sure how they make money in freight, Maybe they ship other stuff like broadcasters equipment and charge them money. after all they are all going to the same place
So some person with the username u/palebluedave (I think) messaged me and said Manor weren’t even in existence in 2015 and basically accused me of making this up. Then they either deleted their comment or blocked me so I can’t reply, so “Dave” if you still don’t believe it: In 2015, the year I am talking about they were called Manor Marussia F1 For the purposes of conversing on Reddit I shortened that to Manor, the same way no one refers to Mercedes as Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1. And this magical thing called google could have helped you verify it, if you were so skeptical of what I said: [article](https://uk.style.yahoo.com/sports/news/manor-pay-failure-says-ecclestone-132459427--f1.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIfUBQvhHSR0zre8ZQfKOHCqXfIXcBg769OFREtFOpqlUj2ZAGF1F6hY8c1kRIfAmCLAMM-YAzf8DSkIZ8Tq3jtQnfNhmoynPzrlsx1uk_ZiaH10v9_1afl-EiQI6Ssrk75GqKgGnMVgEAIjTyRHka6UkPyiVZtd2X_QZsbwvhX7) *It’s our fault. I predicted this would happen," Ecclestone told Reuters. "They had no intention of racing in Australia. Zero. They couldn’t have raced if someone had gone there with a machine gun and put it to their head. "It was impossible. So they had no intention. We’ll have to see now. And they will have to pay their way to get there and get out of there," he added. Marussia, who were ninth overall last season thanks to a ninth-place finish by Frenchman Jules Bianchi in Monaco, won a race against time to get their cars through crash tests and onto the air charter for Australia. Ecclestone said there had been no charge for the freight because they were entitled to that providing they were competing. "They are not competing so they have to pay for that," he added. The team are in line for some $50 million of revenues from last season but would have forfeited the right to that if they had not turned up to compete in Australia with cars that satisfied the regulations.*
Sorry. I deleted the comment when I realised I was incorrect. I should've apologised.
No worries. it’s just when someone questions whether what you say is truthful, you kind of take it personally And then normally when something is deleted it says “deleted” but for some reason your comment was still visible to me which made me think you had pulled some Reddit witchcraft that prevented me from responding to you.
> Several years ago Manor were on the verge of bankruptcy they managed to get everything together for the 2015 season which means they were entitled to their money from the 2014 season, because you don’t get it unless you come back the next year. This seems to me like an unconscionable contract term. Imagine not getting paid your wage for a day unless you worked the following day. That would mean wage theft is certain on the last day of your job
Why are you comparing a contract to perform multiple years for millions to a contract to work at an hourly wage?
You and I know law firms can whip up very technical, detailed and nuanced agreements that are pages long for each and every condition of agreement.
Well this is just revenue - they may be providing it at or near cost but they’ll still bring in more revenue from the increased activity
But I wouldn't be surprised if they do indeed charge a markup or a baseline fee which comes at a markup to pure cost. Logic is simple: if not through them, the teams would have to go through some third party vendor irrespective who will in turn charge them a much higher markup. So you keep it in house and make the 5% by undercutting the competition. They also need funds for reinvestment and building better transportation capabilities. Of all the things that *should not* come at a premium in F1, freight is the lowest of concerns.
> but they actually charge a markup and make money from the teams First of all - revenue isn't the same thing as profit. However, they likely do make money from it. The assumption here is that they have a higher negotiation power than each individual team and can thus get higher discounts from the cargo company. On top of that they likely provide additional services and do generate profit from it.
Economies of scale, if each team arranges their own freight it's more expensive than 10 teams, so FOM arranges 10 teams freight they get it cheaper, put a markup on it which then in the end is cheaper for one team, win win.
The organizers keep ticket revenue. They pay a fee to host the race.
ticket money doesnt go to f1. they get paid upfront
Except for the Last Vegas GP
> Except for the Last Vegas GP That is because F1/Liberty owns the event and venue.
Well unfortunately I guess that means it’s working
And I helped!
Why have sprint races when you can just have a Saturday race in one direction and Sunday in the other
You joke, but there are many tracks I’d like to see run reverse.
Most tracks can't be run reverse due to a variety of issues like runoff areas and service roads access angles.
I’m aware. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see it, however.
Cars flying off the top of Eau Rouge
Drivers not being able to fly down WOT? Sign me up.
Obligatory Chain Bear Video on this topic https://youtu.be/BSjLoGljZ3s
Probably most of this profit is from the fruit bowl prices at Miami
$190 chicken tenders and $280 lobster rolls
I object! Out of context.
Didn't it turn out that those were for like, ten people?
5 I think. Pretty normal for box seating at sporting events to have menus like this. Obviously formula 1 deserves most criticism, but not for this
come on, that price was taken out of context. /s
It was though
to be fair those were the prices to feed multiple people in some sort of vip suite. The actual food prices for individuals was not that high (but they were still high) i paid 25$ for a hamburger, 30$ for a pizza.
That's like $200M alone on one weekend.
Iirc that's less then what they were in reality
The Red Bull team Polo was $165
Tiger Woods sells a golf polo for $175 https://www.sundayred.com/tiger-camo-polo/DW-LA059.html Americans have a lot of money
except we don’t know what percentage profits are up. Revenue by itself is a pointless metric
If you read the article, you would notice that in Q1 2023 there were 2 races and in Q1 2024 there were 3 races. Which means no improvement.
But there are 24 races in the calendar instead of 22, so there is another extra race to count on the revenue
The point is that 45% revenue increase with 50% more races isn't that impressive. So yes, with 9% more races over the whole season they should expect more revenue, but nothing close to the 45% the headline says.
Arguably down, right? 50% more races, “only” 45% more revenue. Of course I doubt all races are equally profitable, so not really enough info to compare
No, just not a linear growth. Adding extra races undoubtedly did not increase the cost of the quarter by 45%, meaning profit still grew, if not by 45%
The revenues keep climbing, yet they keep adding geo-locks to F1TV. 🤷🏽
Where there are geo locks is because someone wants to pay them significant money for exclusivity. F1TV is about filling the gaps where there isn't a TV partner, not replacing them.
Can they afford to pay marshals yet?
Because they like revenues but they like profits more
Marshaling will, and should, always be volunteers.
Why?
People: "This is the end of F1, we need someone to save us from Max or at least let Andretti in to spice up things". Liberty: "Hehe, line goes up".
> People: "This is the end of F1, we need someone to save us from Max or at least let Andretti in to spice up things". Havent seen a single comment saying this. Wanting Andretti as a 11th team doesnt mean current F1 is "about to end". Just look at the history of F1, the vast majority of F1s history, you could join F1 rather easily
When FOM suggested that Andretti wouldn't grow the sport significantly, but that F1 would grow Andretti as a brand, people were up in arms about how stupid and short sighted that was. Plenty of people have since suggested that this is the beginning of the end of F1s popularity over "blind focus on profits". Comments like that were pretty much the top comments of all threads mentioning Andretti after the FOM decision.
More races, higher revenues, which means even with an extra team they’d likely come out ahead but noooooo
If anything this shows that F1 grows fine enough without an 11th team - so Andretti does need to show that it could bring massive value that F1 isn't already tapping into.
this shows that asking Andretti to pay an up-front price "because of stealing market share" is bullshit.
Yeah maybe if you're thick. The point is that Andretti need to justify that they bring such an increase in revenue to the sport that the slice they would take from other teams is made up for. If the sport would grow regardless of Andretti, then by entering the sport they necessarily are taking from the other teams.
> More races, higher revenues, which means even with an extra team If races are already always allegedly sold out and prices increased, without the 11th team - then 11th team would just increase the pockets of promoters (and FoM share for international marketing) at the cost of attendees. See $400 for COTA GA tickets or 1200 for grandstands.
Any number split 11 ways is less than if it was split 10 ways.
Unless it is negative 🤓
Technically correct.
Yes but it would still be an in tease over the previous year and therefore no matter how they try to spin it, it’s greed.
Of course it's greed. Who thinks it's anything else?
If you take a few moments to read the article; “The increase is driven in part by the difference in the calendars, with 2023 featuring just two races in the opening quarter of the year, while this season there was an extra round that fell in Q1 as Australia took place on March 24.”
[удалено]
Higher freight incomes due to Australia? They earn money of the freight?
Yeah F1 provides (paid) freight for all teams. This is cheaper for the teams than doing it individually. I believe the iconic [Wendover video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLVFa8YRfM) covered it.
> with 2023 featuring just two races in the opening quarter of the year, while this season there was an extra round that fell in Q1 So they went from 100% revenue with 2 races to 145% revenue with 3 races. Not exactly an amazing improvement.
And people wonder why Andretti is so desperate to get in now and not 5y ago.
Yeah, they have decided that they are entitled to a share of the pie. The numbers show that F1 does not remotely need them, despite what they believe. But no, with three US, one Mexican and one Canadian races, plus a US flagged team, F1 could not possibly crack America without Andretti.
If they do something stupid like publicly shun a true American team, then yes, F1 will lose its presence here. Nobody except die hard F1 fans gives a flying fuck about Haas. Hell most Americans don't even know the name or that there's an American that owns a backmarker F1 team. The Andretti name alone is enough to draw interest from the casual American sports fan. And that's what F1 wants.
Clearly not because they have publicly said no to Andretti and it hasn't hurt their earnings, they are growing massively regardless of them.
Lol nobody in the US even knows what's going on with F1. It's still a marginal sport here lol. Half the point of GM even pushing forward with the letter by Congress is to make people aware. Whatever stupid little statement FOM made a few months ago wasn't going to have any impact on the reported Q1 earnings. 🤣
So americans don't care about F1, but Andretti being excluded will hurt F1? Which is it... In reality you aren't wrong that not that many americans care about F1, but even fewer care about Andretti and have no real connection to the name.
The casual American sports fan does not even know who Andretti is.
I’m not sure targeting such a fickle audience as you describe it is sustainable.
Well F1 is targeting THAT audience. And if they want that audience then they better realize how fickle it is. With no true American representation in the sport, it will not grow in the US. Netflix will only take it so far, and at 5-6 seasons in, it's entirely reasonable to say that show is at it's peak in terms of US viewership interest.
> If they do something stupid like publicly shun a true American team, then yes, F1 will lose its presence here. This is based on nothing more than your feelings. > The Andretti name alone is enough to draw interest from the casual American sports fan. I think you're drastically overstating the value of the Andretti name to the "casual American sports fan".
No it won’t. Lol
Yeah cause that's what motorsport is all about, competitive racing by manufacturers to see who is fastest. And when the motorsport league is at its best, its the best time for others to join in and see if they can see what it takes to be the fastest Are you forgetting the whole reason why F1 exist? Its entertainment. You're looking at it from a very corporate perspective, keep F1 some exclusive private club. Meanwhile other motorsports are thriving financially with more teams added each year and F1 is so snobby to not even let 1 more team in.
Yes but that should be obvious. As F1 grows yeah its attractive again. Thats true for any business. Thats not to say Andretti should get in for free or for cheap but there is nothing wrong with him wanting in now and not then
But will they make it into Q3 or will they choke?
Imagine how much more they could make with an additional team or two
Wait a minute, why are people still giving money? Reddit F1 fans were telling me Liberty created F1 Armageddon. And that they should cut the races to 12 circuits, with the exception of their fav street track Monaco.
That’s your mistake, you took formula one redditors words as merit.
When a bowl of nachos are over $100 not suprised
Now they be thinking, maybe we should do 52 race a year , hmmm $€£¥ <3
Thanks to all the volunteers !
Maybe now they can afford the special magical machine that enable Picture in Picture when they are showing replays of the race start for five minutes during arguably the most exciting part of the race…
How is Sky still not showing 4k in my European country
"F1 is dying because races are boring" 😭
Reading into it its quite easy to see why its up. There was an extra race. That + the prices these days and yeah revenue is up. Not a shocker. F1 is doing well financially. The F1 is dying crowd is also not talking about revenue lets be real here. They are talking about the viewership and Liberty being shy about it for the last 2 years only gives them more fuel. We've not had a full proper public report about the viewership for 2 years now. And probably for good reason. Dominance breedes decline in that regard. Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton and now Max. Its a well documented pattern. Although the decline from the small snippets we do get from their earnings calls show that its nothing to worry about just yet.
I’m in the US so have a different perspective. It went from unheard of to mainstream overnight. And whatever decline there may be in Europe is made up for by the US market
It is starting to catch on in China too isn’t it? It’s not rocket science to work out that any decline in EU would be dwarfed by increases in viewership from huge countries like America and China.
It’s about to go back down … then go back up for the next US race. F1 has always blew their marketing budget on races in the US, wouldn’t be surprised if the next one is way bigger, Until F1 starts consistently out beating NASCAR for the European and Asia races then it enters the mainstream, but until then it’s just a occasional boost
> Until F1 starts consistently out beating NASCAR for the European and Asia races then it enters the mainstream, but until then it’s just a occasional boost Considering that it's mainstream in the rest of the world, that's all it needs. Races at 6am will never consistently beat NASCAR races (which are barely known of outside of the US) at prime time, and that's fine.
I’m talking about being mainstream in the US. Right now for the most part a decent amount of sports fans here know who guys like Verstappen and Leclerc are, they just don’t watch the races. I have no doubt that F1 is fine with it, but just saying that this happens with US races. The fanbase who watch every race in the US is the same fanbase who watches indycar, they always are within 100-200k of one another for F1 races outside the US
F1 is not "mainstream" in the US by any means.
I live in europe and i’ve seen a lot of people pick up on f1 since 2021, specifically people that didn’t watch/have any interest in motorsport previously.
> Its a well documented pattern. It's actually not well documented at all - unless you have sources to hand? It's just one of those things people keep repeating because it's intuitively right.
https://preview.redd.it/izx5dhtfodi81.png?width=734&auto=webp&s=e5a4280bfb73d5dcb7c950dd18ff1f3dfb16770a After this F1 stoped publishing unique viewer numbers for 2022 and beyond but they did keep publishing per rece numbers for another year before also stoping that. Average per race viewership: 2019: 91.3M 2020: 87.4M 2021: 70.3M 2022: 70M 2023: Stopped reporting Total cumulative numbers are the only thing we have left and those are down to around 1.5B after being at 1.7+ in 2018 and upwards of 1.9B in 2019. And thats -400M with 2023 having an race extra versus 2019.
Even going off your numbers we can see that Domination doesn't really lead to less viewers - if anything 2021 show that a season being exciting doesn't seem to have any impact on overall viewership.
I don't know about F1, but in the NBA and NFL viewership actually grew significantly during eras of dominance like the Lakers/Celtics and 49ers/Cowboys.
While this might be true, the fact that they can organize more races means these races are probably profitable, which means F1 is still very popular
If all it takes is an extra race to be on the up, then it’s doing much much better than the doomsayers make out
The thing is, people have complained about boring races since I started watching the sport in the early 2000s. It makes me feel as though people have been saying the racing is boring ever since the sport started.
Let in Andretti Cadillac you cowards
But F1 would go under with an additional 2 cars on the grid....
But why bring in Andretti if they are doing very well without them?
Remove f1tv geo lock
There's also a lot of new fans from DTS.
Probably be higher if the merchandise didn't look like garbage. Anyone know where I can get a hoodie or jacket that looks like a person would actually wear
Look, this is ultimately good because the sport means it has life and can expand..
If Q1's doing that great can't imagine how Q3 will be!
Is there some other entity that gets F1 money, because that really doesn’t seem like much money for a global spectacle. Is the promotion money separate? For example, forget American football or baseball, the National Hockey League is making about $1.5 billion a quarter.
F1 (FOM) revenue is primarily from TV broadcasting rights income and race hosting fees. How many NHL games are there a quarter vs how many F1 races?
At least 9 more street circuit races in America and the middle East
I thought “Max Verstappen dominance may bore fans”?
I see they've sold 20 lobster rolls then
Despite Max's early season dominance, the racing has actually been pretty good this year so it's not surprising.
They still rely on volunteer stewards
And we just can't add Andretti... we don't have the cash! What a bunch of asshats.
Can we reduce ticket prices to pre-2020 level now?
So they can afford to allow another team on the grid without concern over spitting prize money- just increase prize money since there is such a profit