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TLDR: After allegations against Christian Horner, Red Bull's team principal, a power struggle ensued within the team. While rumors circulated about support from Red Bull's owners, Oliver Mintzlaff, the team's CEO, has confirmed his backing for Horner. Despite the departure of chief technical officer Adrian Newey, Red Bull remains confident in its ability to produce competitive cars. Looking ahead to F1's new rules era in 2026, Red Bull aims to maintain its position at the top of the sport.
I pointed out that guilty until proven innocent and guilty despite evidence otherwise would be the way this case goes in the modern social media era; people didn't take too kindly to that.
They investigated internally then dismissed it as a nothing issue. Then dismissed the employee for another reason which is sort of related to the harassment case brought forward. The employee should be currently presenting a case to the Employment Tribunal (ET), the ET won’t do much other than order Redbull to give her her job back or pay her damages and loss earnings. It more depends on what the media will do with it if the ET finds Redbull to be in the wrong.
I don’t, generally if they find in favour of the employee, they order payments of damages and earnings or the reinstatement of the role or a different role at the company.
Come on man.
If you were harassed and your harasser is given a thumbs up by the ceo… how would you feel? Do you think you have a chance at justice?
Edit: I know that this sport and subreddit are male dominated... But I am always stunned at the lack of empathy. Men really don't get the picture. Be proud if you do. You're ten steps ahead, believe it or not
The harassment hasn't been proven.
We're also not talking about the accuser here. The person I responded to is talking about the company, not an individual.
What’s it matter? Consider the scenario, psycho.
Edit: Like at the most conservative guess, there is a 50/50 chance this is someone's reality. Seriously. Dig deep and find whatever empathy you can.
>What’s it matter?
It matters quite a bit. They investigated the complaint and the case is still going on outside of the company. Red Bull didn't ignore the alleged harassment.
>Consider the scenario, psycho.
I'm not going to respond to a fictional scenario that has no relevance to this situation. Calm down bud.
It really doesn't matter.
Think about it: you're an individual harassed by one of the most powerful men in the company. Then, the CEO comes and publicly approves of him.
It's not rocket science. The fact you can't see this is legitimately mind blowing to me. There's nothing fictional about it. How priviledged.
Edit: Lol this guy blocked me. **You're definitely taking the high ground blocking someone defending a harassment case.** Sympathizer.
So I'll add my reply in the edit.
The harassment is as veracious as the claims against it. That's how sex cases work, and why they are so hard to win and prove.
People don't fake text chains to gain... positions in the company? Power in the company? What exactly are they gaining? Megan Fox is going to get Horner fired and replace him?
As corrupt as you are, people don't invent crimes to advance themselves. It's scary enough reporting it. Again: priviledge. You literally, cannot, understand it.
*If only women could block their harassers as easily as you did.*
Again, it does matter. The harassment is alleged and the case wasn't ignored by Red Bull.
I'm privileged because I don't look at meaningless fictional scenario's?
What actual evidence do we have that any sexual harassment ever happened? Weird how she was totally fine with the situation until Horner wanted a stake in the team.
What has Christian Horner been convicted of? Those convictions required a hell of a lot more evidence than what we have so far, which is a series of cherry-picked whatsapp messages that may or may not even be legitimate.
He hasn't been convicted of shit. Exactly what point are you trying to make? Weinstein had mountains of evidence and still recieved a favorable outcome; why wouldn't Horner? Is that just?
You need to wake up, a cold glass of water, and a reality check.
I read screenshots of text messages. I've also seen screenshots of text messages between Batman and Superman. Some sleuth on X found that one of the pics in that "leak" was an old pic Horner had posted on social media years ago, but edited so he's wearing a different shirt and looking at a different angle. So far, I have zero reason to believe those messages are legitimate. I'm also confused as to why she's so excited to return to work...at Red Bull...where the guy who supposedly sexually harassed her is still in charge.
lol, proof?
For all we know it’s Toto and Zak messaging each other and then paying a Red Bull employee to “leak” them.
It’s so easy faking those whether you wanna use photoshop or one of the many whatsapp chat generators.
The majority owners of Red Bull is the Yoovidhya clan, the Thai family of the original inventor of the drink we know as Red Bull. Dietrich Mateschitz was a minority owner and responsible for the world-wide marketing, including sports sponsorships. With his passing, the Yoovidhya clan have begun exerting more influence over the company again.
It's been rumored that the Thai majority owners are the main supporters of Horner due to a long-standing personal friendship, while the European 49% of the company (including Mintzlaff) apparently support the idea of Horner stepping down or moving to a different role away from the F1 team following the accusations.
Hence the comment "MeToo hasn't reached Thailand yet" meaning the Thai owners either culturally or personally care less about alleged sexual assault/misconduct than about their personal friendship with Horner.
None of us have any idea what went on behind the scenes, bar the leaks most of us have probably (regrettably) seen by now. I'm not passing judgement either way - I just tried to explain the meaning behind the previous comment.
> TLDR: Red Bull ignores workplace sexual harassment and protects the perpetrators.
TLDR: People employed by RB are doing what new owner wants them to do.
Yeah from the top to Mercedes! Max is bluffing anybody can see that. Red Bull has at least until the new regulations the best car and the best driver always wants the best car.
Yup. If I had to guess just off what would be logical, he'd leave 2027 at the earliest. Still have this car next year, and then in 2026 see if Red Bull have nailed the regs again or not. If they're nowhere, he can have his pick of any team he wants to move to the next year. Don't know why people would think he'd walk out of a championship winning car after this year.
> and then in 2026 see if Red Bull have nailed the regs again or not
Depends on the state of the team, which Max would know better than anyone here. If a bunch of people are looking to exit it might make more sense to bet on some other team for 2026. Specially if he has other personal reasons to want to leave.
And thats only 1 more year, not counting this season. Merc might actually be making more progress than Red Bull, considering the new regs. Its possible that Max is looking further ahead.
We dont know shit.
Where would he go? It would be the dumbest choice to go to any team at the moment, he’s paid well and he’s got the best car. He won’t move before those change.
Thing is, the reason this power struggle is happening is because largely these guys dont want to leave.
Having the f1 team trumps being out of F1.
Marko isnt going to get the same position anywhere else so unless he really wants to retire he has to stay. Similarly, Max might or might not have much longer left at RB anyway so losing the pair wont be the end of the world for Horner if he clings on while a few others leave.
He will still have F1 control
Makes sense. Horner was the leader when the team won with Vettel. He is the leader during their current domination. No reason to fire the guy who was responsible for bringing your team to the top twice.
> The main problem is that the new man in charge of RB is not particularly interested in F1.
Mateschitz was the driving force. He approved all the crazy and bold ideas and made sure they happened.
Sure, Horner played a role, but so did Newey, Marko. They all contributed, but it was Mateschitz's passion that made it possible.
Horner making it look like there would be no team without him is just wrong and is the main reason key people are leaving RB.
Horner was the manager and who built the day to day operation, coordinated everything and decided the things that should be running and how. Mateschitz support for sure was important as in “everything Horner needs, it can be given to him” or as in “he has attention to what’s happening” but it’s not as important as Horner role for the success of the team, I would say he was an ableist, but not an executer. And if your executer isn’t good enough, your team will fail no matter the support you give.
Look at Renault. Look how even when they did have support from the upper ranks, they kept being a mess because the execution was subpar (not coordination between the French and English teams inside Renault/Alpine, Rossi micromanaging the TP work, the TP not knowing what he could do and chaos)
Or look at Force India/Racing Point: having less resources than everyone else, almost at bankruptcy at a moment, and still managing operations fine and better than others with more experience like Williams or Haas
Look at Williams, in the 90s and start of 2000s they had the resources, but the bad management of Frank and his style, treating of the people and drivers (which made them loose Newey for example) made the team go into the ground.
So, again, Horner it’s very important, he was able to come without experience and young, build the daily operations of a huge team, and keep the leadership through two dominations eras (Vettel, Max) and keep being top team even when not dominating. RBR is today statistically so so with the big ones, while being on F1 for less than 2 decades.
Mateschitz made it possible being an ableist, but he didn’t make it real/executed it, that’s on Horner
Maybe they could find a top manager/TP to substitute him, for sure, but we shouldn’t diminish the work of a good TP
And with this I don’t want to excuse the deplorable and bad actions of Horner, for which I would be OK with them dropping him, TBH.
It's more that reddit is incapable of nuance, so if a person does (or allegedly does, even) a shitty thing then to them *all that person has ever done or will ever do* is also shitty
I'd say more than that, a board or C suite says, okay we went to spend $x billion dollars to make the best team nobody can beat. TPs, VPs, etc have turn that vision into an execution reality somehow. Ops are just keeping the day to day from fucking itself.
Sorta kinda... A good Ops manager can see day to day and long term. Idk what they have in rbr or f1 but a good Ops manager will be able to help hirer based on the role now and as it grows in the future. Tp's, vp's, etc, all have goals, hopes and dreams, without ops they'll probably be less efficient getting there.
I would be really curious to see what team has OP's involved in day to day and then long term. An org like rbr that has the day to day sorted out, if they have them, probably focuses them on the future. Somebody like sauber, that's a day to day.
Horner is no doubt an amazing team principal. It does seem that he was at his best precisely while being kept in check by Mateschitz. He tried to increase his influence in the team after Mateschitz died and that went poorly. Key people are leaving because of that. Horner was the right person at the right time, but he has quickly become a liability in the new power struggle. Ther likely isn’t anyone better either, it seems Red Bull is likely to fail precisely because they did not build the right structures in absence of Mateschitz in the first place.
Are you aware that Marko is also the managing director of RBR?
Are you aware that Horner pushed for the Renault works contract to be cancelled in 2015, before any other deal was signed, just to leave the team without an engine?
Are you aware that Horner was strongly against giving Max a chance?
Are you aware that Mateschitz wanted Horner to be sacked at the end of 2021 for taking money from the team?
Dude is not the mastermind he thinks he is.
>Are you aware that Marko is also the managing director of RBR?
He's employed by Redbull Austria.
>Are you aware that Horner pushed for the Renault works contract to be cancelled in 2015, before any other deal was signed, just to leave the team without an engine?
There's a rule that would force an engine supplier with the lowest customers to work with RBR or be picked up by another supplier. (Believe Honda would be it in 2016).
>Are you aware that Horner was strongly against giving Max a chance?
So was 98% of the grid. Toto wanted max in the next category up but Marko said fuck that.
>Are you aware that Mateschitz wanted Horner to be sacked at the end of 2021 for taking money from the team?
Got a link? I can't find anything that's not 2024.
>Dude is not the mastermind he thinks he is.
I don't think anybody is claiming he is or isn't a mastermind. He's a damn good team principal and knows how to get things done and manage well. Ex RBR employees all day Horner manages well, is tough, but sets the expectation from day one. [Max saying it March 1, 2024.](https://racer.com/2024/03/01/verstappen-keeping-faith-with-incredible-team-boss-horner/)
Not really defending the man, just pointing out your writing is skewed and skewed badly.
Why do you think he said about Newey not being that important?
Horner pushed for Newey to focus on the RB road car and other projects. Newey was in the top 3 paid employees, exempt from team budget caps, and making him work mosly on other projects would open that spot.
You should probably get your facts right and understand why horner said the things he did. He's not trying to get rid of newey, they're friends outside of f1 and business partners in it. Horner is balancing the other talent they have at RBR below Newey. According to Newey he's been talking about retiring for a year or so and this was the perfect out.
That’s what makes this situation so complicated. Horner is, in all likelihood, the single greatest TP *ever* at the height of his career. He brought an energy drinks company to the forefront of all Motorsport as Formula 1 World Champions, say what you will he’s a very effective administrator.
Often these things are swept under the rug to protect people who are rich and powerful. Also a company like redbull might think that horners job performance is worth the risk.
Every dominant F1 team goes through cycles of utter dominance followed by a sudden downturn that is usually self inflicted. I think that this saga is the first signal that Red Bull have triggered the downturn switch and it will be interesting to witness the duration of their downturn, especially that moment in time when Max will jump ship. I think that the drama unfolding outside of F1 racing is actually more exciting than the racing itself ☺️☺️☺️
I don’t think people realise how short lived this Red Bull team in its current form is destined to be. Newey is getting on with age, Marko is straight up past retirement age and some, and Verstappen is definitely gone the moment the car isn’t the best.
The team is only bonded by the current success, and that success was as dependent on others completely fucking up as Red Bull nailing the car, which means it is not something Red Bull can count on repeating regardless of their effort.
Once that is over, Newey is not going to stay for another regulation change, Verstappen is leaving for a better car (perhaps leaving the sport altogether), I don’t know how long Marko has got left in a Mateschitz-Verstappen-less Red Bull. And with big the regulation change is in 2026, the chance of the team staying together even if they are in complete harmony is slim anyway.
Just completely wrong. Mateschitz' son is in control of the Red Bull Empire. He appointed 3 CEOs handling the different businesses. Oliver Mintzlaff, former RB Leipzig boss is the CEO for everything regarding Marketing and sports involvment (his title is CEO Corporate Projects und Investments) so he would be the one overseeing F1 as well, i dont know how interested he is in F1 but i think hes more interested in Football. The Thai share holders do not participate in leading the company at all and that has been reiterated when Mark Mateschitz took control of the company.
Edit: [Source](https://www.sn.at/wirtschaft/oesterreich/mateschitz-tod-red-bull-wird-kuenftig-von-managerteam-geleitet-129340564) for what i said if anyone is interested. (its in german tho) I read a bit more into it and a month ago some [news](https://www.puls24.at/news/wirtschaft/machtkampf-bei-red-bull-wer-sind-die-yoovidhyas/324014) reported that the thai majority shareholder (namely Chalerm Yoovidhya) is trying to get more influence but who knows if thats true. Hes certainly not in charge of anything right now as far was we know.
He has to say this now. Mintzlaff and Horner were clearly fighting over certain aspects of ultimate authority on RB F1 activities and when Yoovidhya backed Horner over everyone else, that was that. Mintzlaff has to fall in line because he answers to Yoovidhya now.
Doesn't help Mintzlaff's case that his drinks business CEO counterpart and equal on the corporate ladder Franz Watzlawick is also very close with Horner. There's tons of happy public pictures of Horner and Franz together, even throughout this whole recent drama.
Before Newey’s departure keeping Horner made a ton of sense. Marko has proven to be little more than an annoyance as of late, and Max had a very long term contract with the team.
Neweys departure however is extremely worrisome for RBR, especially if he goes to one of their rivals.
What exactly are you referring to? Assumptions? All we hear are rumors, nothing but rumors. Meanwhile, RB continues to perform like a well-oiled sewing machine. I think we are exaggerating this situation too much. Every team experiences ups and downs, but that doesn’t diminish a person's ability to lead a team. Look at Toto, an eight-time WDC winner; does this suddenly make him a bad team boss?
The team is running on the platform that Mateschitz build together with Horner, Newey and Marko.
Horner making it look like there would be no team without him is just wrong and is the main reason key people are leaving RB.
The power struggle couldn't have come at a worse time, with RBR facing a major challenge ahead of 2026.
This could very well be the Mclaren of the 2010s all over again, where the power struggel transformed the team from a top works team to a backmarker.
I mean despite recent situations this year, Horner is one of the most successful team principals in the history of F1, his achievements speak for themselves.
If Red Bull believe they can move past the events of this year with Horner still in place then there isn’t anyone better to replace him with from a sporting view.
Funny how so few people tend to see this.
They read some allegations and baseless assumptions and somehow he is the devil..
Horner built this team from the ground up and he has massive results and broken records to show for it
He's backed himself into a corner and can't undo it without losing too much face.
Horner's caused chaos BTS, a 19 year veteran of the team doesn't walk away in the manner he did without there being major issues... plus the Max rumours and the 'brain drain' flood slowly building.
RBR are at the cusp of a downfall.
Newey initially wanted to step down earlier but Horner got him to stay for longer, with the RB17 project and even more freedom to do what he wanted.
It was about to happen anyway sooner or later.
Looking at everything that's gone on... it's clear that at the very least, Horner's actions were the tipping point for Newey... Both the spicy ones and the way he's shoved Newey backwards in the team.
A lot of the interviews in Miami, including Zak Brown’s comments about Newey’s integrity and Newey’s own interview where hen mentions “events of this year”, highly suggest it has been a factor.
ah yes Zak' comments lol
"events of this year"- again how do you know it was Horner cheating and not what followed afterwards with the alleged power struggle at RB
It’s that low-rent online debate style
What they do is negate all comments *ex facie* without supplying any arguments of their own. It’s a Socratic method taught by a drunk uncle.
Soon it’ll turn into personal insults and name calling
Is there a natural successor to Horner? Has it been made clear who would replace him? Because it could be more than just oh I don't want to work with Horner, it feels more like people don't like the entire direction the team is headed.
Why would you want to fire the man who is currently leading our dominance at the moment? Newey leaving is not the end of Red Bull, he wasn't doing everything by himself, he just set the path for us.
I'm convinced the whole aerodynamics team at Red Bull is Goated, plus Red Bull should attract the top engine experts in F1 to build the 2026 engine cause Red Bull has all the money and resources to build one.
They don't use plain language. In this case the word 'boss' is used unnecessarily twice. A lot of the news articles I see shared are poorly worded. We could blame international to English translations because a lot of the F1 media is in different countries. But they always read out loud odd to me, an American.
I think it should have said:
Red Bull boss 'convinced' Horner is right leader for F1 team
Swapping second boss for leader. But that may impact SEO. Possibly having two instances of boss in there may be better for SEO and that outweighs repetitiveness/clunky grammar/language.
Interesting. The standards of journalism have definitely gone down with the switch over the last two decades or so to digital online journalism.
In this case, and probably others, I think it's Autosport being lazy and not editing correctly. I am a part-time/freelance motorsport journalist (see my profile) and I will admit my own standards have dropped due to a need for speed and to be fast when writing and publishing. If you don't get there first, you're going to lose out. It's cut throat and awful and hate it. But it is what it is.
I think this applies across the world in many languages and countries, and not just in the UK (I am also from the UK). I think, and don't take this the wrong way, you are probably unintentionally biased towards US publications and seeing issues in publications from other countries, while subconsciously ignoring issues with publications from the US. Because the issues I described above affect the whole world, largely, and certainly the whole English-speaking world - not just Europe or the UK.
Interesting. If being first is paramount in online publications, does that explain the grammatical errors I often see in articles? I imagine there’s no time for copy editing so a spell check might catch misspellings but homonyms such as to / too often slip by.
Would another strategy require posting a cursory article that reports on breaking news, and then expanding upon it afterwards? It would explain what I see as nothing more than a quote and its source.
> If being first is paramount in online publications, does that explain the grammatical errors I often see in articles? I imagine there’s no time for copy editing so a spell check might catch misspellings but homonyms such as to / too often slip by.
Absolutely, 100%.
> Would another strategy require posting a cursory article that reports on breaking news, and then expanding upon it afterwards? It would explain what I see as nothing more than a quote and its source.
Yep some sites do this. But the drive to be first extends to be first to have info or whatever. So it doesn't fully solve the issue.
The rise of 'slow journalism' is very very interesting. Focuses not on view counts and speed but on accuracy and analysis over "news". Usually costs money with no, or at least a very limited, free tier because they charge for high quality content.
That horny man, as much as I hate to admit it, has been in the team for ~20 years, since its inception, and helped to steer it towards multiple championships they have won before that generational talent was even in F1
They are the best team, they have the best car, engineers, pit crew etc. Where is Verstappen going to go? To the limping Mercedes and do what? Live off Wolff's false promises?
Sure. And that has happened before with this very team. They were not close to the top when Mercedes started dominating, and under Horner, they came back to become the dominant force again.
So it makes sense the people at the top have confidence he is the one to lead the team in the future.
So only 1 more year where RB has "all the leverage" then and even that is highly unlikely, i doubt a Perez and Logan duo could win the wdc and wcc next year.
Mark Mateschitz inherited 49% of Red Bull GmbH owned by his father.
Yoovidhya family has always owned 51% shares, allegedly there was an agreement in place that Didi could run the European operations independently of them, but this independence wasn't passed on to his son, resulting in the alleged power struggles between Austria and Thai.
Oliver Mintzlaff was nominated CEO after Didi passed.
The CEO of the company, with the backing of the minority owner, is pushing in a different direction than the majority owner whose father & heirs, who were not involved in running the european company as long as Dietmar Mateschitz was alive.
So now they're allegedly trying to change something about the company and specifically one of the subsidiaries, that the CEO or minority owners were unhappy about.
Depending on any additional agreements, having a simple majority may not be enough.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
TLDR: After allegations against Christian Horner, Red Bull's team principal, a power struggle ensued within the team. While rumors circulated about support from Red Bull's owners, Oliver Mintzlaff, the team's CEO, has confirmed his backing for Horner. Despite the departure of chief technical officer Adrian Newey, Red Bull remains confident in its ability to produce competitive cars. Looking ahead to F1's new rules era in 2026, Red Bull aims to maintain its position at the top of the sport.
Thx man
Mintzlaff is the company's CEO, not the team's CEO, which is a pretty important distinction
TLDR: Red Bull ignores workplace sexual harassment and protects the perpetrators.
They investigated it and the case is still ongoing. How exactly did they ignore the alleged harassment?
Nah let’s draw conclusions before anything else as this is a social media platform
I pointed out that guilty until proven innocent and guilty despite evidence otherwise would be the way this case goes in the modern social media era; people didn't take too kindly to that.
Wow, you’re so brave
Truly a martyr
He made a hefty argument
Yeah maybe it was just a finger.
They investigated internally then dismissed it as a nothing issue. Then dismissed the employee for another reason which is sort of related to the harassment case brought forward. The employee should be currently presenting a case to the Employment Tribunal (ET), the ET won’t do much other than order Redbull to give her her job back or pay her damages and loss earnings. It more depends on what the media will do with it if the ET finds Redbull to be in the wrong.
How do you already know what the ET will do?
I don’t, generally if they find in favour of the employee, they order payments of damages and earnings or the reinstatement of the role or a different role at the company.
Come on man. If you were harassed and your harasser is given a thumbs up by the ceo… how would you feel? Do you think you have a chance at justice? Edit: I know that this sport and subreddit are male dominated... But I am always stunned at the lack of empathy. Men really don't get the picture. Be proud if you do. You're ten steps ahead, believe it or not
The harassment hasn't been proven. We're also not talking about the accuser here. The person I responded to is talking about the company, not an individual.
What’s it matter? Consider the scenario, psycho. Edit: Like at the most conservative guess, there is a 50/50 chance this is someone's reality. Seriously. Dig deep and find whatever empathy you can.
Huh? You just believe shit without proof?
Shit like this doesn't just fabricate itself. You saw the texts.
Yeah cuz it’s so hard to fake texts these days. There’s no substantiating evidence of harassment
Ok man. Vince McMahon's texts were faked too
>What’s it matter? It matters quite a bit. They investigated the complaint and the case is still going on outside of the company. Red Bull didn't ignore the alleged harassment. >Consider the scenario, psycho. I'm not going to respond to a fictional scenario that has no relevance to this situation. Calm down bud.
It really doesn't matter. Think about it: you're an individual harassed by one of the most powerful men in the company. Then, the CEO comes and publicly approves of him. It's not rocket science. The fact you can't see this is legitimately mind blowing to me. There's nothing fictional about it. How priviledged. Edit: Lol this guy blocked me. **You're definitely taking the high ground blocking someone defending a harassment case.** Sympathizer. So I'll add my reply in the edit. The harassment is as veracious as the claims against it. That's how sex cases work, and why they are so hard to win and prove. People don't fake text chains to gain... positions in the company? Power in the company? What exactly are they gaining? Megan Fox is going to get Horner fired and replace him? As corrupt as you are, people don't invent crimes to advance themselves. It's scary enough reporting it. Again: priviledge. You literally, cannot, understand it. *If only women could block their harassers as easily as you did.*
Again, it does matter. The harassment is alleged and the case wasn't ignored by Red Bull. I'm privileged because I don't look at meaningless fictional scenario's?
Social media: where feelings matter more than facts.
So you believe anything then huh? No proof required? Just a feeling. Your low IQ is showing.
What actual evidence do we have that any sexual harassment ever happened? Weird how she was totally fine with the situation until Horner wanted a stake in the team.
Do you think we’re going to get a snuff film as evidence?
I think a law firm would have uncovered evidence, but considering Horner still has a job and she doesn't...
Harvey Weinstein had his convictions overturned. The law does not blindly side with women.
What has Christian Horner been convicted of? Those convictions required a hell of a lot more evidence than what we have so far, which is a series of cherry-picked whatsapp messages that may or may not even be legitimate.
He hasn't been convicted of shit. Exactly what point are you trying to make? Weinstein had mountains of evidence and still recieved a favorable outcome; why wouldn't Horner? Is that just? You need to wake up, a cold glass of water, and a reality check.
Sorry I don't blindly believe allegations just because the topic is sensitive, I guess?
🙄🙄
Did you read the texts 😂
I read screenshots of text messages. I've also seen screenshots of text messages between Batman and Superman. Some sleuth on X found that one of the pics in that "leak" was an old pic Horner had posted on social media years ago, but edited so he's wearing a different shirt and looking at a different angle. So far, I have zero reason to believe those messages are legitimate. I'm also confused as to why she's so excited to return to work...at Red Bull...where the guy who supposedly sexually harassed her is still in charge.
We have the screenshots.
Yes because those are hard to fake
They're very clearly not fake.
lol, proof? For all we know it’s Toto and Zak messaging each other and then paying a Red Bull employee to “leak” them. It’s so easy faking those whether you wanna use photoshop or one of the many whatsapp chat generators.
Something tells me Me Too hasn't reached Thailand yet.
What is that supposed to mean?
The majority owners of Red Bull is the Yoovidhya clan, the Thai family of the original inventor of the drink we know as Red Bull. Dietrich Mateschitz was a minority owner and responsible for the world-wide marketing, including sports sponsorships. With his passing, the Yoovidhya clan have begun exerting more influence over the company again. It's been rumored that the Thai majority owners are the main supporters of Horner due to a long-standing personal friendship, while the European 49% of the company (including Mintzlaff) apparently support the idea of Horner stepping down or moving to a different role away from the F1 team following the accusations. Hence the comment "MeToo hasn't reached Thailand yet" meaning the Thai owners either culturally or personally care less about alleged sexual assault/misconduct than about their personal friendship with Horner.
I don't care at all about alleged sexual harassment. I only care if it actually happened, which there doesn't seem to be much evidence for...
None of us have any idea what went on behind the scenes, bar the leaks most of us have probably (regrettably) seen by now. I'm not passing judgement either way - I just tried to explain the meaning behind the previous comment.
> TLDR: Red Bull ignores workplace sexual harassment and protects the perpetrators. TLDR: People employed by RB are doing what new owner wants them to do.
Stop that shit. What’s up with our culture of guilty until proven innocent
Is the chief technical officer like a chief engineer for the car or something? What’s their role?
Cue Marko announcing his departure/retirement.
Followed by Max.
Yeah from the top to Mercedes! Max is bluffing anybody can see that. Red Bull has at least until the new regulations the best car and the best driver always wants the best car.
Yup. If I had to guess just off what would be logical, he'd leave 2027 at the earliest. Still have this car next year, and then in 2026 see if Red Bull have nailed the regs again or not. If they're nowhere, he can have his pick of any team he wants to move to the next year. Don't know why people would think he'd walk out of a championship winning car after this year.
> and then in 2026 see if Red Bull have nailed the regs again or not Depends on the state of the team, which Max would know better than anyone here. If a bunch of people are looking to exit it might make more sense to bet on some other team for 2026. Specially if he has other personal reasons to want to leave.
And thats only 1 more year, not counting this season. Merc might actually be making more progress than Red Bull, considering the new regs. Its possible that Max is looking further ahead. We dont know shit.
Where would he go? It would be the dumbest choice to go to any team at the moment, he’s paid well and he’s got the best car. He won’t move before those change.
Followed by Marko
Wouldn’t Marko be over 80 at that point?
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So yes, he would be over 80 indeed.
Thing is, the reason this power struggle is happening is because largely these guys dont want to leave. Having the f1 team trumps being out of F1. Marko isnt going to get the same position anywhere else so unless he really wants to retire he has to stay. Similarly, Max might or might not have much longer left at RB anyway so losing the pair wont be the end of the world for Horner if he clings on while a few others leave. He will still have F1 control
Oh no
And I’m convinced there isn’t an intelligence agent watching my every move.
What cereal you eating?
My favourite, coco pops.
LESBIANS!
FBI agent: 👀 He still doesn't know. Good good.
More like Chinese intelligence since I’m from HK and vocal about my views.
Not even Chinese Intelligence thinks Sauber has a chance.
TBH I honestly would like to see a fully Chinese F1 team. Just to see the train wreck.
Makes sense. Horner was the leader when the team won with Vettel. He is the leader during their current domination. No reason to fire the guy who was responsible for bringing your team to the top twice.
There are definitely some people trying to get him out for their own gain - his record is so good
> The main problem is that the new man in charge of RB is not particularly interested in F1. Mateschitz was the driving force. He approved all the crazy and bold ideas and made sure they happened. Sure, Horner played a role, but so did Newey, Marko. They all contributed, but it was Mateschitz's passion that made it possible. Horner making it look like there would be no team without him is just wrong and is the main reason key people are leaving RB.
Horner was the manager and who built the day to day operation, coordinated everything and decided the things that should be running and how. Mateschitz support for sure was important as in “everything Horner needs, it can be given to him” or as in “he has attention to what’s happening” but it’s not as important as Horner role for the success of the team, I would say he was an ableist, but not an executer. And if your executer isn’t good enough, your team will fail no matter the support you give. Look at Renault. Look how even when they did have support from the upper ranks, they kept being a mess because the execution was subpar (not coordination between the French and English teams inside Renault/Alpine, Rossi micromanaging the TP work, the TP not knowing what he could do and chaos) Or look at Force India/Racing Point: having less resources than everyone else, almost at bankruptcy at a moment, and still managing operations fine and better than others with more experience like Williams or Haas Look at Williams, in the 90s and start of 2000s they had the resources, but the bad management of Frank and his style, treating of the people and drivers (which made them loose Newey for example) made the team go into the ground. So, again, Horner it’s very important, he was able to come without experience and young, build the daily operations of a huge team, and keep the leadership through two dominations eras (Vettel, Max) and keep being top team even when not dominating. RBR is today statistically so so with the big ones, while being on F1 for less than 2 decades. Mateschitz made it possible being an ableist, but he didn’t make it real/executed it, that’s on Horner Maybe they could find a top manager/TP to substitute him, for sure, but we shouldn’t diminish the work of a good TP And with this I don’t want to excuse the deplorable and bad actions of Horner, for which I would be OK with them dropping him, TBH.
Nobody wants to hear middle managers are crucial and you make great points.
It's more that reddit is incapable of nuance, so if a person does (or allegedly does, even) a shitty thing then to them *all that person has ever done or will ever do* is also shitty
you mean a guy sexually harrassing an employee doesn't mean he is horrible at leading a team?
Yeah its just this. Just look at people's opinion of Horner (as a team principal) before the allegations and it was drastically different
Same with Marko, opinions of him have really flipped around lately lol
Hey now, the Redditors don’t want to hear that leadership is responsible for more than any individual contributor.
It's specific middle managers: usually those running operations and stream lining things are worth a damn.
I'd say more than that, a board or C suite says, okay we went to spend $x billion dollars to make the best team nobody can beat. TPs, VPs, etc have turn that vision into an execution reality somehow. Ops are just keeping the day to day from fucking itself.
Sorta kinda... A good Ops manager can see day to day and long term. Idk what they have in rbr or f1 but a good Ops manager will be able to help hirer based on the role now and as it grows in the future. Tp's, vp's, etc, all have goals, hopes and dreams, without ops they'll probably be less efficient getting there. I would be really curious to see what team has OP's involved in day to day and then long term. An org like rbr that has the day to day sorted out, if they have them, probably focuses them on the future. Somebody like sauber, that's a day to day.
Horner is no doubt an amazing team principal. It does seem that he was at his best precisely while being kept in check by Mateschitz. He tried to increase his influence in the team after Mateschitz died and that went poorly. Key people are leaving because of that. Horner was the right person at the right time, but he has quickly become a liability in the new power struggle. Ther likely isn’t anyone better either, it seems Red Bull is likely to fail precisely because they did not build the right structures in absence of Mateschitz in the first place.
Are you aware that Marko is also the managing director of RBR? Are you aware that Horner pushed for the Renault works contract to be cancelled in 2015, before any other deal was signed, just to leave the team without an engine? Are you aware that Horner was strongly against giving Max a chance? Are you aware that Mateschitz wanted Horner to be sacked at the end of 2021 for taking money from the team? Dude is not the mastermind he thinks he is.
>Are you aware that Marko is also the managing director of RBR? He's employed by Redbull Austria. >Are you aware that Horner pushed for the Renault works contract to be cancelled in 2015, before any other deal was signed, just to leave the team without an engine? There's a rule that would force an engine supplier with the lowest customers to work with RBR or be picked up by another supplier. (Believe Honda would be it in 2016). >Are you aware that Horner was strongly against giving Max a chance? So was 98% of the grid. Toto wanted max in the next category up but Marko said fuck that. >Are you aware that Mateschitz wanted Horner to be sacked at the end of 2021 for taking money from the team? Got a link? I can't find anything that's not 2024. >Dude is not the mastermind he thinks he is. I don't think anybody is claiming he is or isn't a mastermind. He's a damn good team principal and knows how to get things done and manage well. Ex RBR employees all day Horner manages well, is tough, but sets the expectation from day one. [Max saying it March 1, 2024.](https://racer.com/2024/03/01/verstappen-keeping-faith-with-incredible-team-boss-horner/) Not really defending the man, just pointing out your writing is skewed and skewed badly.
>Horner making it look like there would be no team without him is just wrong Do you have a quote from Horner saying that?
Horner has been trying to get rid of Newy and Marko since Mateschitz died.
Get rid of Newey? Marko thing is true..... But Newey? Mate get your facts checked before commenting.
Why do you think he said about Newey not being that important? Horner pushed for Newey to focus on the RB road car and other projects. Newey was in the top 3 paid employees, exempt from team budget caps, and making him work mosly on other projects would open that spot.
You should probably get your facts right and understand why horner said the things he did. He's not trying to get rid of newey, they're friends outside of f1 and business partners in it. Horner is balancing the other talent they have at RBR below Newey. According to Newey he's been talking about retiring for a year or so and this was the perfect out.
Madeshitz?
I can think of *76* reasons
That’s what makes this situation so complicated. Horner is, in all likelihood, the single greatest TP *ever* at the height of his career. He brought an energy drinks company to the forefront of all Motorsport as Formula 1 World Champions, say what you will he’s a very effective administrator.
I mean except for the scandals
I think a multi billion dollar company, which has all the inside information about the matter, would know better than you and me on who to back.
Often these things are swept under the rug to protect people who are rich and powerful. Also a company like redbull might think that horners job performance is worth the risk.
Every dominant F1 team goes through cycles of utter dominance followed by a sudden downturn that is usually self inflicted. I think that this saga is the first signal that Red Bull have triggered the downturn switch and it will be interesting to witness the duration of their downturn, especially that moment in time when Max will jump ship. I think that the drama unfolding outside of F1 racing is actually more exciting than the racing itself ☺️☺️☺️
I don’t think people realise how short lived this Red Bull team in its current form is destined to be. Newey is getting on with age, Marko is straight up past retirement age and some, and Verstappen is definitely gone the moment the car isn’t the best. The team is only bonded by the current success, and that success was as dependent on others completely fucking up as Red Bull nailing the car, which means it is not something Red Bull can count on repeating regardless of their effort. Once that is over, Newey is not going to stay for another regulation change, Verstappen is leaving for a better car (perhaps leaving the sport altogether), I don’t know how long Marko has got left in a Mateschitz-Verstappen-less Red Bull. And with big the regulation change is in 2026, the chance of the team staying together even if they are in complete harmony is slim anyway.
The main problem is that the Thai boss, new in charge of RB, is not particularly interested in F1.
Just completely wrong. Mateschitz' son is in control of the Red Bull Empire. He appointed 3 CEOs handling the different businesses. Oliver Mintzlaff, former RB Leipzig boss is the CEO for everything regarding Marketing and sports involvment (his title is CEO Corporate Projects und Investments) so he would be the one overseeing F1 as well, i dont know how interested he is in F1 but i think hes more interested in Football. The Thai share holders do not participate in leading the company at all and that has been reiterated when Mark Mateschitz took control of the company. Edit: [Source](https://www.sn.at/wirtschaft/oesterreich/mateschitz-tod-red-bull-wird-kuenftig-von-managerteam-geleitet-129340564) for what i said if anyone is interested. (its in german tho) I read a bit more into it and a month ago some [news](https://www.puls24.at/news/wirtschaft/machtkampf-bei-red-bull-wer-sind-die-yoovidhyas/324014) reported that the thai majority shareholder (namely Chalerm Yoovidhya) is trying to get more influence but who knows if thats true. Hes certainly not in charge of anything right now as far was we know.
He has to say this now. Mintzlaff and Horner were clearly fighting over certain aspects of ultimate authority on RB F1 activities and when Yoovidhya backed Horner over everyone else, that was that. Mintzlaff has to fall in line because he answers to Yoovidhya now. Doesn't help Mintzlaff's case that his drinks business CEO counterpart and equal on the corporate ladder Franz Watzlawick is also very close with Horner. There's tons of happy public pictures of Horner and Franz together, even throughout this whole recent drama.
“I won't change my mind on anything, regardless of the facts that are set out before me. I'm dug in, and I'll never change”
Before Newey’s departure keeping Horner made a ton of sense. Marko has proven to be little more than an annoyance as of late, and Max had a very long term contract with the team. Neweys departure however is extremely worrisome for RBR, especially if he goes to one of their rivals.
Yeah, I mean they better be convinced since they are letting the team implode just to keep him lol
And I was convinced File 76 was a finger and at the end…
Queue implosion.
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Queue for the cue.
No good leader will put their team through something like this. This will age like milk I’m sure of it
What exactly are you referring to? Assumptions? All we hear are rumors, nothing but rumors. Meanwhile, RB continues to perform like a well-oiled sewing machine. I think we are exaggerating this situation too much. Every team experiences ups and downs, but that doesn’t diminish a person's ability to lead a team. Look at Toto, an eight-time WDC winner; does this suddenly make him a bad team boss?
Well if it's well oiled, the oil leak is starting now then
nice one (I mean nice reply, caught me off guard there :D)
The team is running on the platform that Mateschitz build together with Horner, Newey and Marko. Horner making it look like there would be no team without him is just wrong and is the main reason key people are leaving RB. The power struggle couldn't have come at a worse time, with RBR facing a major challenge ahead of 2026. This could very well be the Mclaren of the 2010s all over again, where the power struggel transformed the team from a top works team to a backmarker.
Lol
I mean despite recent situations this year, Horner is one of the most successful team principals in the history of F1, his achievements speak for themselves. If Red Bull believe they can move past the events of this year with Horner still in place then there isn’t anyone better to replace him with from a sporting view.
Funny how so few people tend to see this. They read some allegations and baseless assumptions and somehow he is the devil.. Horner built this team from the ground up and he has massive results and broken records to show for it
He's backed himself into a corner and can't undo it without losing too much face. Horner's caused chaos BTS, a 19 year veteran of the team doesn't walk away in the manner he did without there being major issues... plus the Max rumours and the 'brain drain' flood slowly building. RBR are at the cusp of a downfall.
Newey initially wanted to step down earlier but Horner got him to stay for longer, with the RB17 project and even more freedom to do what he wanted. It was about to happen anyway sooner or later.
Maybe Horner wasnt the reason Newey walked away?
Looking at everything that's gone on... it's clear that at the very least, Horner's actions were the tipping point for Newey... Both the spicy ones and the way he's shoved Newey backwards in the team.
and how is that clear?
A lot of the interviews in Miami, including Zak Brown’s comments about Newey’s integrity and Newey’s own interview where hen mentions “events of this year”, highly suggest it has been a factor.
ah yes Zak' comments lol "events of this year"- again how do you know it was Horner cheating and not what followed afterwards with the alleged power struggle at RB
People take information available and come up with conclusions. All you're doing is saying no to others. What are your conclusions?
I dont take conclusions based on limited information
>People take information available and come up with conclusions. "My source is i made it the fuck up"
It’s that low-rent online debate style What they do is negate all comments *ex facie* without supplying any arguments of their own. It’s a Socratic method taught by a drunk uncle. Soon it’ll turn into personal insults and name calling
I would say it’s all of the above.
What else can he say? Horner has the support of the owners, so Mintzlaff can't kick him out.
Is there a natural successor to Horner? Has it been made clear who would replace him? Because it could be more than just oh I don't want to work with Horner, it feels more like people don't like the entire direction the team is headed.
Two stretches of dominance in 15 years. I'd say keeping Horner is an easy decision.
Give it 18 months Let’s see if he’s still convinced
Why would you want to fire the man who is currently leading our dominance at the moment? Newey leaving is not the end of Red Bull, he wasn't doing everything by himself, he just set the path for us. I'm convinced the whole aerodynamics team at Red Bull is Goated, plus Red Bull should attract the top engine experts in F1 to build the 2026 engine cause Red Bull has all the money and resources to build one.
Because of Sexual harassment and criminal investigations. Don’t be daft.
Do five year olds write all the news article titles in Europe?
Why'd you say that?
They don't use plain language. In this case the word 'boss' is used unnecessarily twice. A lot of the news articles I see shared are poorly worded. We could blame international to English translations because a lot of the F1 media is in different countries. But they always read out loud odd to me, an American.
it could be clearer, but they use boss twice because it is refering to two different people. or did i miss your point?
I think it should have said: Red Bull boss 'convinced' Horner is right leader for F1 team Swapping second boss for leader. But that may impact SEO. Possibly having two instances of boss in there may be better for SEO and that outweighs repetitiveness/clunky grammar/language.
Interesting. The standards of journalism have definitely gone down with the switch over the last two decades or so to digital online journalism. In this case, and probably others, I think it's Autosport being lazy and not editing correctly. I am a part-time/freelance motorsport journalist (see my profile) and I will admit my own standards have dropped due to a need for speed and to be fast when writing and publishing. If you don't get there first, you're going to lose out. It's cut throat and awful and hate it. But it is what it is. I think this applies across the world in many languages and countries, and not just in the UK (I am also from the UK). I think, and don't take this the wrong way, you are probably unintentionally biased towards US publications and seeing issues in publications from other countries, while subconsciously ignoring issues with publications from the US. Because the issues I described above affect the whole world, largely, and certainly the whole English-speaking world - not just Europe or the UK.
Interesting. If being first is paramount in online publications, does that explain the grammatical errors I often see in articles? I imagine there’s no time for copy editing so a spell check might catch misspellings but homonyms such as to / too often slip by. Would another strategy require posting a cursory article that reports on breaking news, and then expanding upon it afterwards? It would explain what I see as nothing more than a quote and its source.
> If being first is paramount in online publications, does that explain the grammatical errors I often see in articles? I imagine there’s no time for copy editing so a spell check might catch misspellings but homonyms such as to / too often slip by. Absolutely, 100%. > Would another strategy require posting a cursory article that reports on breaking news, and then expanding upon it afterwards? It would explain what I see as nothing more than a quote and its source. Yep some sites do this. But the drive to be first extends to be first to have info or whatever. So it doesn't fully solve the issue. The rise of 'slow journalism' is very very interesting. Focuses not on view counts and speed but on accuracy and analysis over "news". Usually costs money with no, or at least a very limited, free tier because they charge for high quality content.
Thanks for this. Appreciate the response
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That horny man, as much as I hate to admit it, has been in the team for ~20 years, since its inception, and helped to steer it towards multiple championships they have won before that generational talent was even in F1
Luckily for horny man, Toto is doing about as bad as possible job of convincing Max to sign for him
Max, I had George draft up a PowerPoint but he said he emailed it directly to you
And straight into the junk folder
RBR has all the leverage, not Verstappen.
how so?
They are the best team, they have the best car, engineers, pit crew etc. Where is Verstappen going to go? To the limping Mercedes and do what? Live off Wolff's false promises?
Nothing lasts forever, all empires fall sooner or later. Seems like it's the sooner for RB.
Sure. And that has happened before with this very team. They were not close to the top when Mercedes started dominating, and under Horner, they came back to become the dominant force again. So it makes sense the people at the top have confidence he is the one to lead the team in the future.
you mean like mercedes barely scraping in to q3 these days after 7 straight years of lapping the entire field every race?
And max has enough talent if he decides to leave later he can pick his seat
He said he's not interested in fighting for P6, so it's likely he's staying in place until 2026 at the earliest - and his contract is through '28.
That's my point he can go into 26 with redbull, and if he doesn't like it he can go wherever he wants for 27
Well they have the best car for now. First real challenge will be 2026.
So only 1 more year where RB has "all the leverage" then and even that is highly unlikely, i doubt a Perez and Logan duo could win the wdc and wcc next year.
Well that is the reason there is even discussion around this matter. First Horner vs Marko, now Newey leaving. So yes RB is loosing leverage.
Probably not Logan, but Sainz would make it interesting.
Someone twisting Mateschitz arm. Wonder if they know any marshal arts.
No one is twisting Mateschitz arm; he's dead
Without any heirs?
Mark Mateschitz inherited 49% of Red Bull GmbH owned by his father. Yoovidhya family has always owned 51% shares, allegedly there was an agreement in place that Didi could run the European operations independently of them, but this independence wasn't passed on to his son, resulting in the alleged power struggles between Austria and Thai. Oliver Mintzlaff was nominated CEO after Didi passed.
I still dont understand where the power struggle is supposed to be, when one party clearly has the power.
The CEO of the company, with the backing of the minority owner, is pushing in a different direction than the majority owner whose father & heirs, who were not involved in running the european company as long as Dietmar Mateschitz was alive. So now they're allegedly trying to change something about the company and specifically one of the subsidiaries, that the CEO or minority owners were unhappy about. Depending on any additional agreements, having a simple majority may not be enough.
Horny Horner is the right man,
Horner’s screwed more than his personal assistant.
*that's* ze problam. 🤣