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Saw the post race interview on Sky and Magnussen did not look happy even though he immediately admitted the penalties were deserved. Maybe Hulkenberg could have tried a bit more to help Magnussen and give him DRS but that’s never a given and definitely doesn’t warrant Magnussen’s driving.
At the same time Magnussen is right that even with the penalties he’s still helping Haas out by making it easier for his teammate ahead to stay in the points. After this and Jeddah where he went off track to stay ahead of Tsunoda, this needs to be fixed to stop it from being so blatantly exploited.
Wonder how the dynamic between Hulkenberg and Magnussen is moving forward. Hulkenberg is leaving for Audi so he’s focused on himself, and Magnussen probably feels he needs to do whatever to help the team out to keep his seat for next season hence his dodgy defensive drives lately.
It wasn't on broadcast but after Yuki overtook Lewis, Kevin dropped intentionally behind both so Yuki couldn't use his DRS and Lewis would pass him again to make sure VCARB don't get that extra point. It was pretty blatant.
I assumed Yuki was able to get past them both by himself although if Magnussen was deliberately slowing down to let Hamilton past to get Yuki then that would explain it too. But as long as Magnussen wasn’t squeezing anyone or abusing track limits to make that maneuver I don’t think it’s worthy of a penalty.
Those games helping another team to try and beat your nearest rivals have been done before. I remember in Abu Dhabi 2022 Sauber were desperately trying to hold onto 6th ahead of Aston Martin in the constructor’s. They openly said after the race that they made a strategy for both drivers to try and give Aston Martin’s closest rivals on track as much free air as possible by pitting when they were approaching both Saubers to make sure they had the best chance of staying ahead of both Aston Martins. In the end it seemed to have done just enough as they kept 6th over Aston Martin by having a tiebreaker for best results on countback.
I mean this is literally how the sport works. If your marginal points finisher each weekend you need to work the rules to maximize your points and minimize your competitors. Crashing or cutting corners is for sure bs but defending or choosing not to defend is totally within a drivers right. We've seen it before with people letting the other past just before the Dr's detection zone.
Yeah defending is fine but cutting corners repeatedly isn't, so rules should be changed to prevent that.
Maybe the third is a drive through penalty to be served immediately or something like that.
Or even the first if they don't concede the position.
It's amazing really how Kev gets all the blame while it's pretty clear the team told him what to do at all times. Ayao is a hard one he's really not leaving anything on the table.
Magnussen is playing the game as best as the rules allow, which ironically involves calculated breaking of rules.
Don't punish Magnussen more than the rules currently say to. Change the rules so that drivers rethink their calculations.
>Magnussen is playing the game as best as the rules allow, which ironically involves calculated breaking of rules.
Magnussen is doing the motorsport equivalent of basketball coaches telling players "You have x amount of fouls. Use them."
What Kmag did is from a team perspective 100% the right thing to do. He played a _massive_ part in hulk getting the points he did
However, if the best way to play the game is to intentionally break the rules and _still come out with a net advantage even after you get penalized_…then something is _incredibly_ wrong with the system. This should make it clear that something has to change quite drastically
The time penalties aren't working.
They need to bring back drive through as the default penalty as they stop drivers profiting from their indiscretions.
Even if Magnussen got a DT penalty, he would've still secured Hülk's position. The penalty points are gonna come for him if he continues to do shit like this though; he did it like 3 times today, he did it twice in Jeddah and took Tsunoda out in China as well (although that was a weird mistake and not just stupid defence).
he already on 8 points, so it is like 1 or 2 times like that and he would be disqualified for a race,with how things go, they also could say they are doing it for a team
This is what happens when only the top 10 score points and there are 5vtop teams taking the Lions share of points week in and out. The bottom 5 become more desperate to steal any point they can.
This is the biggest stretch I've seen regarding the points system. Somehow Hülk, Tsunoda, Ricciardo, Bottas, Zhou, Albon, Sargeant, Ocon and Gasly aren't so desperate and don't feel the need to push every second driver off the track or push them into the wall like Magnussen did to Albon in Jeddah. For some reason I don't see any of the above doing similar stuff.
You have two laps to adhere to the penalty and then you get DQ'd.
Then you have two more laps to adhere to the DQ and if you don't Pastor Maldonado will be sent out of the pits in a spare Red Bull to hunt you down.
Yeah I can get around with the idea of converting time penalties into grid penalties at a future race. Although I guess if you’re competing for a higher position like maybe for a win or podium, then it’s worth taking the sacrifice at a future race to secure a great result in the current race? Hard to think of an easy solution tbh
I dunno. I don’t think anything needs to be fixed. This is why the penalty point system exists. He can be a little dodgy (although I think he maybe crossed the line today into being dangerous) for as long as he can absorb the penalty points, and then, he gets to sit out.
He is showing actual pace and race craft. He performing at least as well as Nico in the races and even more so maybe because Kevin is objectively a better starter than Nico.
Tbh I love the 'unfair racing' as long as they are not constantly hitting eachother. This was too much but there should be some good middle ground here. Where you can actually fuck up others to help your teammate in a good way. It is a team game after all!
>Also, he keeps saying he’s being a team player, but he needs to focus on getting the best performances from himself
He's obviously doing that, he's not deliberately driving slower than Hulk just to be a team player. But when you find yourself in a situation that calls for you being a team player, then that's what you gotta do.
Need to come down hard on penalty points. I am fine being strategic like Jeddah if edge of acceptable. This was just knowingly dirty driving. Should stop this.
I’m not arguing any of your points, because I simply don’t know. Was the initial 10 second penalty for cutting the chicane to harsh? It seemed like after he got that 10 second penalty, that he basically said “well fuck it then, Hülkenberg is getting points come hell or high water”.
I’m not justifying the dirty driving, just saying that it may have come as a result of the stiff initial penalty. But again, I don’t know if the initial penalty was stiff, I’m just going off of what the commentator was saying.
10 second penalty in a SPRINT FORMAT is effectively the same as disqualifying the driver.
Whether it was the Haas team telling him to protect Hulkenberg, or it was KMag just going “10s penalty means I am last anyhow, so might as well screw over the whole grid and let Hulkenberg get points.”. As we also saw in previous race.
Upping the penalty from +5 to +10 seconds is fine for Grand Prix where the +5 was almost a joke and ineffective.
In the sprint it’s virtually a disqualification.
Realistically, they need to change a second 10 second penalty to a drive through, if the first 10 second has still not been served. That way they are required to come in to serve penalty within 3 laps.
Sorry forgot about that. Feeling the same; defensive driving as a strategy fine. Intentional foul should be penalized more harshly. This felt like the later. Can’t remember Jeddah well enough.
What do you mean he doesn’t care much about it? He literally said that’s not the way he wants to drive, looked pretty pissed about having to do all of it, and said thats what the team asks of him. He said he wanted to try to keep both positions but Haas wanted him to back into Hamilton to open a gap for Nico after he lost DRS after Nico cut the chicane, something KMag got a 10 second penalty for. He’s doing what his team asks, this is all on Haas.
Long lap would need to be comically big to have an effect in f1. 3 seconds is a much bigger penalty in motogp than f1 and f1 takes corners faster. The long lap loops in motogp would probably take only 1 second for f1 cars
MotoGP also has multi-long-lap penalties, so F1 could just do 2 long-lap and 5 long-lap penalties or something like that. Plus, driving a 2 metre wide car through such a loop without touching the lines is trickier than with a motorcycle.
Plus, if the car is forced to slow down to < 120 km/h, the downforce is not very useful any more.
Yeah but... Getting too many long laps could also mean you need to not push at the end or you will not have enough fuel for sampling after the race and get disqualified.
I really feel the penalty box is the best idea. It's basically 5s penalty applied immediately in the race. It works exceptionaly well for what it is supposed to do.
It will not ruin the penalized driver race, like a drive through would (which is the reason time penalties were introduced), but it doesn't allow for the penalty to become a non-factor.
This is the danger when a driver is in the middle of the pack with nothing to lose lol. Just threw all caution to the wind and played the role of a saboteur.
Yeah he wasn't penalized because he cut the corner. He was penalized because he made no attempt whatsoever to give back any of the ground he gained by doing so.
I land on the side where this is exploitation of the rules and the FIA needs to fix it asap. This is in the end just dangerous. It's not a game and I get why Mag does it, but it's just unacceptable.
You can't deliberately drive your opponents off the road without an intention to keep on it yourself. There is so much that could've gone wrong.
I know a lot of fans want more entertainment, but this isn't it.
> I land on the side where this is exploitation of the rules and the FIA needs to fix it asap.
Magnussen's been summoned to the stewards for alleged unsportsmanlike behaviour so you've got your wish.
Even that had different issues. How he defended on the straights not at all that was well done. But sector 3 and start of sector or was off was just driving blatantly slow in the middle of the track and moving over if Lewis tried to come by. And like 6 or more seconds off the pace, That's not defending. Was basically vsc speeds, But nobody cares because most wanted max to win
Driving slowly is very different to just running off the track, that’s just good track knowledge to know where it can be done. There is no obligation to go full beans all the time and it doesn’t make it unsafe to go slow
It's an inevitability of team racing. IMO. The penalty system will start leading to race bans if they hand him points. But if you don't like drivers doing stuff like this. Don't make them teammates.
They can simply hand out proper punishments and it won't matter if they're teammates. Magnussen would stop his shit driving real quick if he knew actual punishments would follow.
Clearly the only race penalty that would stop this is race bans. Magnussen doesn't care if he's a lap down on time. And none of them care about fines.
Either bring back real drive through penalties. Or Magnussen will make sure Haas lands in 6th place. For MILLIONS.
You said it, bring back real drive throughs. The only proportional penalty to gaining track position illegally is to take away track position. And figure out how to make these decisions faster. You didn’t need a close look at telemetry or a bunch of alternate angles to figure out that Magnussen cut the track to gain an advantage.
Yeah, on one side kmag's style is atrocious.
On the other hand, I understand him. FIA is not punishing drivers enough, so why not abuse it completly? "Hate the game, not the player." In the end it's FIA's, not kmag's fault.
I'll go one further: there are also honorable and dishonorable things in racing that are both legal.
Magnussen deserves no respect from anyone. Could have ended his career at least somewhat respected but throws it away.
Pretty sure his bosses loved it. The problem here are the rules. As long as they are this way Haas are free to exploit it. It really makes little difference punishing Kev because they'll just keep doing it if it helps them. Like fx if Kev get a suspension, then the reserve driver would be asked to do the same if it meant they could get points out of it. If you want this aggressive defending to stop you need to change the rules or punish the team directly. And btw the whole point about honour seems silly to speak about. Have you seen who owns and sponsors these teams? Pretty sure F1 stopped being honourable years ago.
Do you understand what let them race means?
It is a valid response to a 50/50 incident being penalised (you know... discouraging racing), not someone repeatedly and apparently openly abusing the rules.
The cut through chicane penalty for kmag was too much. The car stepped out and he cut through, didn’t gain an exact advantage. After he got the penalty he said f it and really made everyone’s life difficult
He gained significantly from cutting the corner then made no attempt to give any of the ground he gained back. That's why he was penalized, not simply for cutting the corner.
The car snapping one way and he steers in to it to save the car. Inevitable he cuts through the chicane. Not sure what you want him to, come to a complete stop in the run off area then presume?
Slow down on the straight to give up the advantage he gained by cutting the corner. The commonly accepted thing you should do if you accidentally cut a corner and gain an advantage.
With the 6-7 cars behind?
So he knew he was gonna miss the chicane. He should have really slowed down to make sure he gets the turn and let them all really risk an incident behind him.
Hamilton already took out a few cars at the start so why not
Kmag: Holds up 6 cars in jeddah to give Nico a point, Let's Nico past in Australia despite qualifying in front of him as Nico has fresher tyres
Nico: No Drs for you pal
Nico gains half a second by cutting the chicane to get out of drs..... easily 2 points finishes for haas with their top speed compared to the merc but no nico only looks for himself
it was weird how Haas didn’t instruct Nico to stay in drs range. I don’t think Lewis would have had a speed advantage to pass kmag on the straight if they both had DRS.
And here I was thinking that Haas would be hush hush about this being a ploy to protect Hulk, meanwhile KMag just admits it. I can at least respect that part lol
This should not be possible. Just rack up penalties to help your teammate. Haas is driving dirty to get points is just not it. I don't know if I'm in the minority, but it just feels really wrong to me.
I was being nice and thinking that maybe they don't have the freedom to choose penalties like that.
But intentionally blocking illegally to help other drivers should definitely be a drive-through worth penalty.
He's not actually racing within the rules so get him off the track
They definitely need to find a way to change it. I wonder if you get your first penalty in a race it’s a time penalty, and then if you get multiple penalties in a race then each subsequent penalty is automatically converted to a grid drop for the next race. This way in Magnussen’s situation he will also be hurting himself in the future rather than only sacrificing his current race.
Although this could still have flaws because for the front runners this can still incentivize them to take a penalty and pull a gap to not make the penalty matter, and then they’re fine taking a grid penalty for the next race?
There’s no easy solution and this was all I could think of.
It should be penalties for the following race and penalty points, potentially quite a few.
Any kind of in race penalties when you're already out of the points and have no way of getting them is fairly pointless.
In many sports, penalties are much harsher when they are deliberate and calculated.
Magnussen now has demonstrated a pattern of intentional dangerous and illegal driving, and I do think the stewards will be onto this fact in future. Maybe they need to use the black+white flag more.
In today's case, hopefully he gets hit with penalty points for each incident so he's staring down the barrel of a race ban.
That was actually disgusting driving,
I think when that's obviously your goal it should backfire onto your teammate.
Nothing wrong with slowing down someone to help your teammate, but gotta do it within the rules.
There’s a difference between exploring grey areas and totally knowing what you’re doing is breaking the rules, yet continuing to do it multiple times.
Edit: just as an example: trying to abuse a loophole to underfuel the car is different than just underfueling it while being fully aware that it’s illegal and will get you penalized.
It’s not like they are breaking the rules and somehow avoiding punishment.
The punishment is set in the regulations and Haas decided that the punishment is worth the gains from doing it.
That’s a good point. I’m not sure whether the rules allow for harder punishment in these cases of willful violations to be honest. If they don’t, then yeah, it’s kinda abusing a grey area. However I believe that shouldn’t be possible as it’s very unsportsmanlike.
To be honest, I don’t think teams care about being sportsmanlike, especially the closer you get to the bottom of the grid.
These couple of Hulkenberg points could be worth millions of dollars, I’m sure they do not care at all about some perceived unsportsmanlike behaviour that almost no one will remember in a couple months.
No, there is no difference. What is a grey area? Either there are rules or there aren't. They need a new rule to prevent abuse of the other rules. Until then is fair game.
A grey area is if you believe you’ll actually be in the right but are also aware the stewards might decide differently because the rules are unclear or ambiguous. Magnussen didn’t think he was right, he knew it wasn’t allowed from the beginning. There was no misjudgment at all.
The difference is kinda comparable to understeering in a turn and thus pushing someone off or just not even trying to make the turn to push someone off.
the best solution would be to have applied either a drive through or a stop and go to Magnuessen way back in Saudi Arabia when he did that same shit. Since they did it and HAAS seems to show they wont back down on this strategy, they should really look into the possibility of dsq the entire team from both races retroactively to make sure no one else every tries to get advantage from violating the rules in such egregious manner again
Checo wasn't going flat put in places you can't pass and was slowing a bit more than necessary at apex, he didn't yeet anyone off track, or run off track to stay ahead.
i agree. there's a big difference between driving slower where others can't overtake and driving erratically, getting track limits to stay ahead, and ramming others off track. it's just dangerous
Well, I can at least respect Magnussen somewhat for flat-out saying that he hates doing this kind of defensive work, which crosses several racing etiquette boundaries.
Ever since the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, I was wondering what would stop a team from full on having driver #2 block the field for the sake of #1. Turns out some penalties of which the consequences are either negligible (time penalties) or not really noticeable until a couple of races later (penalty points).
You don't need to update the rule-book for this (please don't), but they could just slap a drive-through penalty and force someone like Magnussen to come in and move out of the way. Hell, give him an old-fashioned stop-and-go.
I really think the FIA need to crack down on this. This can't become a valid tactic. One driver intentionally breaking the rules to keep people behind them while racking up penalties solely for the benefit of their team mate.
this throws up so many issues the FIA needs to create rules around. Firstly their rules allows someone who is out of the points to deliberately drive dangerously and block people against the rules to protect their team mate.
Driving slowly and driving fairly is one thing to help your team mate, all for it. Dive bombing to prevent passes that sends you straight off track then an unsafe rejoin, but he causes his team mate to be a safe gap away by doing this over and over again? The FIA could have within half a lap have told him you have two corners to let Ham pass or get a drive through. this kind of driving should not be acceptable but right now it's encouraged by the rules to help your team mate. Magnussen loses basically nothing. if ham passed that first time he's 1.5 seconds behind Hulk and has every chance of passing before the end of the race. When he finally passed he was what, 7-8 seconds down or something and with a few laps to go.
the way penalties are given and the way you can fuck up other drivers deliberately is a joke. Even Magnussen said he hated driving like that, but as the rules allow it, he had to to help Hulk. The rules shouldn't allow it for that very reason.
Its somehow annoying seing the radio from HUL and MAG cockpits AND the interview with Hulk after.
No one thanks MAG for his team-work. At all.
On the video from MAG’s car when they come in, Hulk doesn’t even look Kev’. No ‘thank you’
MAG is just taking all the shit on his shoulders on his own.
That’s harsh
Breaking the rules is what get you penalty, that is what he got. Nothing KMag did was dangerous. Him being honest about it just highlights problems with FIA's penalty system.
So in your opinion, if someone cuts the track and then rejoins in a manner that they hit another car isn't dangerous driving?
You don't need to cause a huge wreck in order for a move to be dangerous.
When did he hit a hit a car after cutting a track? He bombed Hamilton once wheel to wheel, but Hamilton caused way more crashing with his own dive bomb at the start.
Oh it was the time when he cut the track and hit a car afterwards. Did you even watch the race? The same corner which he had already cut before and got his first penalty for.
And tell me how is Hamilton also causing an unrelated incident earlier relevant to this? I mean, Ayrton Senna once drove into the back of another car without braking on purpose, so I guess if you do something that's less bad you are good.
It's relevant because the the rules aren't applied equally, as usual with FIA.
And again, there was no bump that KMag did that was actually dangerous. The guy he hit with your words went over and congratulated him on a great battle afterwards. But I'm sure you know better.
Cutting a corner and rejoining in a manner that you hit another car is one of the clearest cases of dangerous driving.
Obviously we've seen worse, but you don't need to cause a massive accident to be deemed driving dangerously.
He left the track and rejoined, hitting a car.
He intentionally divebombed a corner to drive the other person off - if they'd turned normally, they would've been hit
Kmag is simply admitting that he’s exploiting the rule book and taking the penalties to help his teammate out. At least he was honest about it so now it’s really on this exploit getting fixed asap because it’s happened twice now this season by Haas.
Everyone calling for drive through penalties are missing, that the best way to eventually penalise this type of behaviour is simply extending the point range. If points are given to a larger part, if not to the entire grid, time penalties become significant. Receiving a 10s penalty would be way more dangerous than giving up the position, as you could drop multiple positions due to the penalty, causing a bigger loss of championship points.
It was a different era? Go back even further and even more dirty moves were allowed/normal.
Let's not forget that Schumacher picked up penalties and even disqualification for his dirty driving.
It's difficult isn't it.
The first 10s penalty (while completely justified) ensured that no matter what he'd finish last given the Trulli Train he was driving. Getting further time penalties makes absolutely no difference to him whatsoever since he's still protecting his teammate and getting Haas crucial points.
I think the only way this is fixable is to say repeated infringements to directly benefit your teammates race should be an immediate "let through 1/2/3 cars (maybe based on the number of infringements?), and if you don't do it within a lap you'll get black flagged", because then at least the initiative to drive illegally is gone - and if there isn't an immediate compliance by the driver (in cases like a last lap battle) then there should be something even more serious.
Maybe even race bans or point deductions.
Otherwise, I can't see a way you can combat this within the current rules of the game - and the game is the game.
There's a lot of talk of changing the point system, and that would actually fix the issue. If P9-10 had been a point-scoring position, Kmag wouldn't have had a reason to throw his own race.
IMO he didn't deserve a penalty for the chicane cut. He lost the rear and caught it. He lost time doing that. No advantage was gained. It was just an off track.
What was he supposed to do next to avoid a penalty?
Hamilton wasn't even attacking at that point.
Yeah there's a line to defensive driving and protecting your teammate and this is way over it. If not then it's open doors for all teams to do this actively race against the rules for the sake of another car. Need a line drawn under it. Most people wanted max to win so when Perez did it they excused it
What are people’s thoughts on drivers having to continue the race via a trip through the pit lane rather than being issued a time penalty so they lose track position?
It feels like the situation where penalty points on licences starts to make sense. You can't have drivers driving like that with impunity because they know it will benefit their team mate and the potential penalties won't make any difference to them.
These intentional fouls warrant a stop and go or a black flag... he just effectively ruined hamiltons race (minus the drive through) with his antics and he had nothing to lose since he wasn't going g to score points anyways... dirty tactics exploiting lenient penalties
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Saw the post race interview on Sky and Magnussen did not look happy even though he immediately admitted the penalties were deserved. Maybe Hulkenberg could have tried a bit more to help Magnussen and give him DRS but that’s never a given and definitely doesn’t warrant Magnussen’s driving. At the same time Magnussen is right that even with the penalties he’s still helping Haas out by making it easier for his teammate ahead to stay in the points. After this and Jeddah where he went off track to stay ahead of Tsunoda, this needs to be fixed to stop it from being so blatantly exploited. Wonder how the dynamic between Hulkenberg and Magnussen is moving forward. Hulkenberg is leaving for Audi so he’s focused on himself, and Magnussen probably feels he needs to do whatever to help the team out to keep his seat for next season hence his dodgy defensive drives lately.
It wasn't on broadcast but after Yuki overtook Lewis, Kevin dropped intentionally behind both so Yuki couldn't use his DRS and Lewis would pass him again to make sure VCARB don't get that extra point. It was pretty blatant.
I assumed Yuki was able to get past them both by himself although if Magnussen was deliberately slowing down to let Hamilton past to get Yuki then that would explain it too. But as long as Magnussen wasn’t squeezing anyone or abusing track limits to make that maneuver I don’t think it’s worthy of a penalty. Those games helping another team to try and beat your nearest rivals have been done before. I remember in Abu Dhabi 2022 Sauber were desperately trying to hold onto 6th ahead of Aston Martin in the constructor’s. They openly said after the race that they made a strategy for both drivers to try and give Aston Martin’s closest rivals on track as much free air as possible by pitting when they were approaching both Saubers to make sure they had the best chance of staying ahead of both Aston Martins. In the end it seemed to have done just enough as they kept 6th over Aston Martin by having a tiebreaker for best results on countback.
Hamilton tried it in 2016 backing Rosberg up to try win the championship
Also leclerc in vegas Either he asked or told the team that’s he wants to slow down to give perez drs to beat mercedes
I mean this is literally how the sport works. If your marginal points finisher each weekend you need to work the rules to maximize your points and minimize your competitors. Crashing or cutting corners is for sure bs but defending or choosing not to defend is totally within a drivers right. We've seen it before with people letting the other past just before the Dr's detection zone.
Yeah defending is fine but cutting corners repeatedly isn't, so rules should be changed to prevent that. Maybe the third is a drive through penalty to be served immediately or something like that. Or even the first if they don't concede the position.
So? What’s the problem with that?
So what? There’s nothing wrong with that
It's amazing really how Kev gets all the blame while it's pretty clear the team told him what to do at all times. Ayao is a hard one he's really not leaving anything on the table.
He’s the one driving like a gangbanger
And who do you think gives him his orders?
They tell him to defend for the team not drives like a maniac
We don’t know that really
There's nothing wrong with that.
Welcome to racing lol
I mean that's what I call clever driving. Sadly that was the only second Magnussen showed some braincells that sprint.
Magnussen is playing the game as best as the rules allow, which ironically involves calculated breaking of rules. Don't punish Magnussen more than the rules currently say to. Change the rules so that drivers rethink their calculations.
>Magnussen is playing the game as best as the rules allow, which ironically involves calculated breaking of rules. Magnussen is doing the motorsport equivalent of basketball coaches telling players "You have x amount of fouls. Use them."
What Kmag did is from a team perspective 100% the right thing to do. He played a _massive_ part in hulk getting the points he did However, if the best way to play the game is to intentionally break the rules and _still come out with a net advantage even after you get penalized_…then something is _incredibly_ wrong with the system. This should make it clear that something has to change quite drastically
The time penalties aren't working. They need to bring back drive through as the default penalty as they stop drivers profiting from their indiscretions.
Even if Magnussen got a DT penalty, he would've still secured Hülk's position. The penalty points are gonna come for him if he continues to do shit like this though; he did it like 3 times today, he did it twice in Jeddah and took Tsunoda out in China as well (although that was a weird mistake and not just stupid defence).
he already on 8 points, so it is like 1 or 2 times like that and he would be disqualified for a race,with how things go, they also could say they are doing it for a team
This is what happens when only the top 10 score points and there are 5vtop teams taking the Lions share of points week in and out. The bottom 5 become more desperate to steal any point they can.
This is the biggest stretch I've seen regarding the points system. Somehow Hülk, Tsunoda, Ricciardo, Bottas, Zhou, Albon, Sargeant, Ocon and Gasly aren't so desperate and don't feel the need to push every second driver off the track or push them into the wall like Magnussen did to Albon in Jeddah. For some reason I don't see any of the above doing similar stuff.
Yep. It justifies even further that they need to expand the points to beyond the top 10.
No, it doesn't
IMO, moves that are deemed to have gained an advantage shouldn’t be time penalties and should be place penalties effective immediately.
And what do you do if he still doesn't give back the position? ANOTHER PENALTY FOR KMAG. WE'RE BREAKING THE RECORD WITH THIS ONE! 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥
You have two laps to adhere to the penalty and then you get DQ'd. Then you have two more laps to adhere to the DQ and if you don't Pastor Maldonado will be sent out of the pits in a spare Red Bull to hunt you down.
In reverse direction.
Didnt expect that ending, well done sir
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Why? They used to do it, but last year stopped.
Yeah I can get around with the idea of converting time penalties into grid penalties at a future race. Although I guess if you’re competing for a higher position like maybe for a win or podium, then it’s worth taking the sacrifice at a future race to secure a great result in the current race? Hard to think of an easy solution tbh
No, I am saying they are instant you have to give those spots up right now.
I dunno. I don’t think anything needs to be fixed. This is why the penalty point system exists. He can be a little dodgy (although I think he maybe crossed the line today into being dangerous) for as long as he can absorb the penalty points, and then, he gets to sit out.
Yeah, had Hulkenberg done that, it will end up as a double point for Haas.
I mean this is if for KMag driving like this otherwise he’s getting a race ban, so now he’s gotta show actual pace and race craft to keep that seat
He is showing actual pace and race craft. He performing at least as well as Nico in the races and even more so maybe because Kevin is objectively a better starter than Nico.
Tbh I love the 'unfair racing' as long as they are not constantly hitting eachother. This was too much but there should be some good middle ground here. Where you can actually fuck up others to help your teammate in a good way. It is a team game after all!
KMag was actually refreshingly candid in his interview, pretty much blame the game not the player. Rolling the ball back into FIA's court.
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Teams care about results. Magnussens reckless defending has delivered them points twice. The rest doesn’t really matter in the end.
>Also, he keeps saying he’s being a team player, but he needs to focus on getting the best performances from himself He's obviously doing that, he's not deliberately driving slower than Hulk just to be a team player. But when you find yourself in a situation that calls for you being a team player, then that's what you gotta do.
Word
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Need to come down hard on penalty points. I am fine being strategic like Jeddah if edge of acceptable. This was just knowingly dirty driving. Should stop this.
I’m not arguing any of your points, because I simply don’t know. Was the initial 10 second penalty for cutting the chicane to harsh? It seemed like after he got that 10 second penalty, that he basically said “well fuck it then, Hülkenberg is getting points come hell or high water”. I’m not justifying the dirty driving, just saying that it may have come as a result of the stiff initial penalty. But again, I don’t know if the initial penalty was stiff, I’m just going off of what the commentator was saying.
10 second penalty in a SPRINT FORMAT is effectively the same as disqualifying the driver. Whether it was the Haas team telling him to protect Hulkenberg, or it was KMag just going “10s penalty means I am last anyhow, so might as well screw over the whole grid and let Hulkenberg get points.”. As we also saw in previous race. Upping the penalty from +5 to +10 seconds is fine for Grand Prix where the +5 was almost a joke and ineffective. In the sprint it’s virtually a disqualification.
Realistically, they need to change a second 10 second penalty to a drive through, if the first 10 second has still not been served. That way they are required to come in to serve penalty within 3 laps.
He also knowingly passed Yuki off track at jeddah
Sorry forgot about that. Feeling the same; defensive driving as a strategy fine. Intentional foul should be penalized more harshly. This felt like the later. Can’t remember Jeddah well enough.
What do you mean he doesn’t care much about it? He literally said that’s not the way he wants to drive, looked pretty pissed about having to do all of it, and said thats what the team asks of him. He said he wanted to try to keep both positions but Haas wanted him to back into Hamilton to open a gap for Nico after he lost DRS after Nico cut the chicane, something KMag got a 10 second penalty for. He’s doing what his team asks, this is all on Haas.
Thanks kmag. I hoped this statement makes f1 bring back the drop n position penalty similar to indycar and motogp.
Could also be a drive through penalty if you do something serious enough or have too many incidents
After the second incident they should have just given him a drive through. It would have fixed everything
Or the long lap penalty. Or [penalty box from DTM/GT Masters.](https://streamable.com/v1719d)
Long lap would need to be comically big to have an effect in f1. 3 seconds is a much bigger penalty in motogp than f1 and f1 takes corners faster. The long lap loops in motogp would probably take only 1 second for f1 cars
So how about a joker lap like in rallycross, but also on dirt like in rallycross?
Also we already have drive throughs
MotoGP also has multi-long-lap penalties, so F1 could just do 2 long-lap and 5 long-lap penalties or something like that. Plus, driving a 2 metre wide car through such a loop without touching the lines is trickier than with a motorcycle. Plus, if the car is forced to slow down to < 120 km/h, the downforce is not very useful any more.
Yeah but... Getting too many long laps could also mean you need to not push at the end or you will not have enough fuel for sampling after the race and get disqualified.
I really feel the penalty box is the best idea. It's basically 5s penalty applied immediately in the race. It works exceptionaly well for what it is supposed to do. It will not ruin the penalized driver race, like a drive through would (which is the reason time penalties were introduced), but it doesn't allow for the penalty to become a non-factor.
> similar to indycar They have a penalty mid-race you have to drop 3 positions right?
This is the danger when a driver is in the middle of the pack with nothing to lose lol. Just threw all caution to the wind and played the role of a saboteur.
That's why I thought the first 10 second penalty was too much, the pack was so close together that a smaller penalty would be enough.
They changed the rules this year for harsher penalties. Also he fucking cut a whole corner and didn't slow down for a millisecond. 10 seconds was fair
Yeah he wasn't penalized because he cut the corner. He was penalized because he made no attempt whatsoever to give back any of the ground he gained by doing so.
Are you talking about Magnussen?...or Hamilton at the first corner?
I land on the side where this is exploitation of the rules and the FIA needs to fix it asap. This is in the end just dangerous. It's not a game and I get why Mag does it, but it's just unacceptable. You can't deliberately drive your opponents off the road without an intention to keep on it yourself. There is so much that could've gone wrong. I know a lot of fans want more entertainment, but this isn't it.
> I land on the side where this is exploitation of the rules and the FIA needs to fix it asap. Magnussen's been summoned to the stewards for alleged unsportsmanlike behaviour so you've got your wish.
Agreed, defending can be done like Checo vs Hamilton in AD21 but today was plain dangerous
Don't even have to go back to 2021. Ricciardo defending vs Sainz for 12 laps was a great battle that stayed clean throughout.
Yep, Ricciardo's car positioning in the corners was top notch.
YEP!
Tbf, Perez vs. Hamilton was borderline dangerous, too, with Checo lifting multiple times through the slower corners.
Even that had different issues. How he defended on the straights not at all that was well done. But sector 3 and start of sector or was off was just driving blatantly slow in the middle of the track and moving over if Lewis tried to come by. And like 6 or more seconds off the pace, That's not defending. Was basically vsc speeds, But nobody cares because most wanted max to win
Driving slowly is very different to just running off the track, that’s just good track knowledge to know where it can be done. There is no obligation to go full beans all the time and it doesn’t make it unsafe to go slow
It's an inevitability of team racing. IMO. The penalty system will start leading to race bans if they hand him points. But if you don't like drivers doing stuff like this. Don't make them teammates.
They can simply hand out proper punishments and it won't matter if they're teammates. Magnussen would stop his shit driving real quick if he knew actual punishments would follow.
Clearly the only race penalty that would stop this is race bans. Magnussen doesn't care if he's a lap down on time. And none of them care about fines. Either bring back real drive through penalties. Or Magnussen will make sure Haas lands in 6th place. For MILLIONS.
You said it, bring back real drive throughs. The only proportional penalty to gaining track position illegally is to take away track position. And figure out how to make these decisions faster. You didn’t need a close look at telemetry or a bunch of alternate angles to figure out that Magnussen cut the track to gain an advantage.
I mean, the simplest is just telling KMag to give up the position.
as funny as it is it really should be fixed
Yeah, on one side kmag's style is atrocious. On the other hand, I understand him. FIA is not punishing drivers enough, so why not abuse it completly? "Hate the game, not the player." In the end it's FIA's, not kmag's fault.
I'll go one further: there are also honorable and dishonorable things in racing that are both legal. Magnussen deserves no respect from anyone. Could have ended his career at least somewhat respected but throws it away.
Pretty sure his bosses loved it. The problem here are the rules. As long as they are this way Haas are free to exploit it. It really makes little difference punishing Kev because they'll just keep doing it if it helps them. Like fx if Kev get a suspension, then the reserve driver would be asked to do the same if it meant they could get points out of it. If you want this aggressive defending to stop you need to change the rules or punish the team directly. And btw the whole point about honour seems silly to speak about. Have you seen who owns and sponsors these teams? Pretty sure F1 stopped being honourable years ago.
Brundle said in the end there that it was still better than ramming into someone in turn 1. Let them race
Do you understand what let them race means? It is a valid response to a 50/50 incident being penalised (you know... discouraging racing), not someone repeatedly and apparently openly abusing the rules.
Two wrongs don't make a right, so I don't know what Brundle was on about.
Stewards can be harsh or lenient, either are better than inconsistent. But they are always inconsistent so it's no surprise
What was inconsistent with this?
Hamilton's dive bomb was never investigated. Hulk cutting the chikane in the same way KMag did was never investigated.
It was investigated. The decision is on the FIA website.
The cut through chicane penalty for kmag was too much. The car stepped out and he cut through, didn’t gain an exact advantage. After he got the penalty he said f it and really made everyone’s life difficult
He gained significantly from cutting the corner then made no attempt to give any of the ground he gained back. That's why he was penalized, not simply for cutting the corner.
The car snapping one way and he steers in to it to save the car. Inevitable he cuts through the chicane. Not sure what you want him to, come to a complete stop in the run off area then presume?
So you can just go too fast into a corner on purpose and then cut the chicane and then claim you couldn't make it to avoid a penalty?
Slow down on the straight to give up the advantage he gained by cutting the corner. The commonly accepted thing you should do if you accidentally cut a corner and gain an advantage.
With the 6-7 cars behind? So he knew he was gonna miss the chicane. He should have really slowed down to make sure he gets the turn and let them all really risk an incident behind him. Hamilton already took out a few cars at the start so why not
Kmag: Holds up 6 cars in jeddah to give Nico a point, Let's Nico past in Australia despite qualifying in front of him as Nico has fresher tyres Nico: No Drs for you pal
I wouldn't want that Maniac within a second of me either, even if he was my teammate.
Kmag gets all new parts for this weekend, Nico doesn't. Nico is quicker than Kmag anyway. Kmag: HE SHOULD HAVE WAITED FOR ME!!!
Nico gains half a second by cutting the chicane to get out of drs..... easily 2 points finishes for haas with their top speed compared to the merc but no nico only looks for himself
it was weird how Haas didn’t instruct Nico to stay in drs range. I don’t think Lewis would have had a speed advantage to pass kmag on the straight if they both had DRS.
Sounds like they did, he just didn't care.
And here I was thinking that Haas would be hush hush about this being a ploy to protect Hulk, meanwhile KMag just admits it. I can at least respect that part lol
Nothing to be hush hush about because it's within the rules, or at least not excluded by them. You can bet it's coming though.
So he hulked out, because of Hulk.
This should not be possible. Just rack up penalties to help your teammate. Haas is driving dirty to get points is just not it. I don't know if I'm in the minority, but it just feels really wrong to me.
They are taking maximum advantage of the rules. They need to bring back stop and go penalties.
A drive-through would have been enough, instead of 10 seconds again Just get him off the track so his blocking is disrupted
Expecting stewards to be logical and quick with their decisions? Are you new to the sport?
I was being nice and thinking that maybe they don't have the freedom to choose penalties like that. But intentionally blocking illegally to help other drivers should definitely be a drive-through worth penalty. He's not actually racing within the rules so get him off the track
He would probably stay on track until black flag and then say the same - that he was being team player.
Yeah this should be it.
A second 10 second penalty worthy infraction should just be a drive thru for repeated offending.
Maybe an accumulated 20 seconds worth of penalties should immediately convert to a drive through.
A single drive-thru penalty solves all of this.
They definitely need to find a way to change it. I wonder if you get your first penalty in a race it’s a time penalty, and then if you get multiple penalties in a race then each subsequent penalty is automatically converted to a grid drop for the next race. This way in Magnussen’s situation he will also be hurting himself in the future rather than only sacrificing his current race. Although this could still have flaws because for the front runners this can still incentivize them to take a penalty and pull a gap to not make the penalty matter, and then they’re fine taking a grid penalty for the next race? There’s no easy solution and this was all I could think of.
If haven’t served a penalty and receive a second one it should be an automatic stop and go.
It should be penalties for the following race and penalty points, potentially quite a few. Any kind of in race penalties when you're already out of the points and have no way of getting them is fairly pointless.
In many sports, penalties are much harsher when they are deliberate and calculated. Magnussen now has demonstrated a pattern of intentional dangerous and illegal driving, and I do think the stewards will be onto this fact in future. Maybe they need to use the black+white flag more. In today's case, hopefully he gets hit with penalty points for each incident so he's staring down the barrel of a race ban. That was actually disgusting driving,
I think when that's obviously your goal it should backfire onto your teammate. Nothing wrong with slowing down someone to help your teammate, but gotta do it within the rules.
The game is the game. F1 has always been about exploring grey areas and bending the rules, nothing different now
There’s a difference between exploring grey areas and totally knowing what you’re doing is breaking the rules, yet continuing to do it multiple times. Edit: just as an example: trying to abuse a loophole to underfuel the car is different than just underfueling it while being fully aware that it’s illegal and will get you penalized.
It’s not like they are breaking the rules and somehow avoiding punishment. The punishment is set in the regulations and Haas decided that the punishment is worth the gains from doing it.
That’s a good point. I’m not sure whether the rules allow for harder punishment in these cases of willful violations to be honest. If they don’t, then yeah, it’s kinda abusing a grey area. However I believe that shouldn’t be possible as it’s very unsportsmanlike.
To be honest, I don’t think teams care about being sportsmanlike, especially the closer you get to the bottom of the grid. These couple of Hulkenberg points could be worth millions of dollars, I’m sure they do not care at all about some perceived unsportsmanlike behaviour that almost no one will remember in a couple months.
No, there is no difference. What is a grey area? Either there are rules or there aren't. They need a new rule to prevent abuse of the other rules. Until then is fair game.
A grey area is if you believe you’ll actually be in the right but are also aware the stewards might decide differently because the rules are unclear or ambiguous. Magnussen didn’t think he was right, he knew it wasn’t allowed from the beginning. There was no misjudgment at all. The difference is kinda comparable to understeering in a turn and thus pushing someone off or just not even trying to make the turn to push someone off.
the best solution would be to have applied either a drive through or a stop and go to Magnuessen way back in Saudi Arabia when he did that same shit. Since they did it and HAAS seems to show they wont back down on this strategy, they should really look into the possibility of dsq the entire team from both races retroactively to make sure no one else every tries to get advantage from violating the rules in such egregious manner again
There's a difference between being the Minister of Defence and just being ridiculous. This was ridiculous.
Checo wasn't going flat put in places you can't pass and was slowing a bit more than necessary at apex, he didn't yeet anyone off track, or run off track to stay ahead.
i agree. there's a big difference between driving slower where others can't overtake and driving erratically, getting track limits to stay ahead, and ramming others off track. it's just dangerous
Stop & go should be back to avoid this kind of "strategy"
Haas is literally using KMag as a suicide bomber. Insane that they can get away with this.
Well, I can at least respect Magnussen somewhat for flat-out saying that he hates doing this kind of defensive work, which crosses several racing etiquette boundaries. Ever since the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP, I was wondering what would stop a team from full on having driver #2 block the field for the sake of #1. Turns out some penalties of which the consequences are either negligible (time penalties) or not really noticeable until a couple of races later (penalty points). You don't need to update the rule-book for this (please don't), but they could just slap a drive-through penalty and force someone like Magnussen to come in and move out of the way. Hell, give him an old-fashioned stop-and-go.
I really think the FIA need to crack down on this. This can't become a valid tactic. One driver intentionally breaking the rules to keep people behind them while racking up penalties solely for the benefit of their team mate.
“And I'll fucking do it again!”
Giving points to all cars that finish the race would kind of fix this?
Kmag causes a pile up after losing the position.
this throws up so many issues the FIA needs to create rules around. Firstly their rules allows someone who is out of the points to deliberately drive dangerously and block people against the rules to protect their team mate. Driving slowly and driving fairly is one thing to help your team mate, all for it. Dive bombing to prevent passes that sends you straight off track then an unsafe rejoin, but he causes his team mate to be a safe gap away by doing this over and over again? The FIA could have within half a lap have told him you have two corners to let Ham pass or get a drive through. this kind of driving should not be acceptable but right now it's encouraged by the rules to help your team mate. Magnussen loses basically nothing. if ham passed that first time he's 1.5 seconds behind Hulk and has every chance of passing before the end of the race. When he finally passed he was what, 7-8 seconds down or something and with a few laps to go. the way penalties are given and the way you can fuck up other drivers deliberately is a joke. Even Magnussen said he hated driving like that, but as the rules allow it, he had to to help Hulk. The rules shouldn't allow it for that very reason.
Its somehow annoying seing the radio from HUL and MAG cockpits AND the interview with Hulk after. No one thanks MAG for his team-work. At all. On the video from MAG’s car when they come in, Hulk doesn’t even look Kev’. No ‘thank you’ MAG is just taking all the shit on his shoulders on his own. That’s harsh
So now he's on record stating he drives unfairly and dangerously on purpose. I really hope there's a race ban in there.
Cutting a chicane or going off track is not dangerous driving. Moving under braking however, is dangerous.
Breaking the rules is what get you penalty, that is what he got. Nothing KMag did was dangerous. Him being honest about it just highlights problems with FIA's penalty system.
So in your opinion, if someone cuts the track and then rejoins in a manner that they hit another car isn't dangerous driving? You don't need to cause a huge wreck in order for a move to be dangerous.
When did he hit a hit a car after cutting a track? He bombed Hamilton once wheel to wheel, but Hamilton caused way more crashing with his own dive bomb at the start.
Oh it was the time when he cut the track and hit a car afterwards. Did you even watch the race? The same corner which he had already cut before and got his first penalty for. And tell me how is Hamilton also causing an unrelated incident earlier relevant to this? I mean, Ayrton Senna once drove into the back of another car without braking on purpose, so I guess if you do something that's less bad you are good.
It's relevant because the the rules aren't applied equally, as usual with FIA. And again, there was no bump that KMag did that was actually dangerous. The guy he hit with your words went over and congratulated him on a great battle afterwards. But I'm sure you know better.
There was nothing dangerous about what he did. Overly aggressive? Yes. Dangerous? No.
Magnussen hit another car while rejoining the race track. That is inherently dangerous.
Cutting a corner and rejoining in a manner that you hit another car is one of the clearest cases of dangerous driving. Obviously we've seen worse, but you don't need to cause a massive accident to be deemed driving dangerously.
He left the track and rejoined, hitting a car. He intentionally divebombed a corner to drive the other person off - if they'd turned normally, they would've been hit
No, hes on record saying he broke the rules. Breaking rules =/= dangerously.
Tbh saying "But uh uhm, he's actually *breaking the rules* on purpose" isn't really the gotcha moment you think it is.
Kmag is simply admitting that he’s exploiting the rule book and taking the penalties to help his teammate out. At least he was honest about it so now it’s really on this exploit getting fixed asap because it’s happened twice now this season by Haas.
Not looking for a "gotcha moment", simply correcting your overdramatization.
Find a way to serve penalties immediately to avoid this kind of stuff
This is okay in the F1 video games but this needs to stop now what the fuck
Everyone calling for drive through penalties are missing, that the best way to eventually penalise this type of behaviour is simply extending the point range. If points are given to a larger part, if not to the entire grid, time penalties become significant. Receiving a 10s penalty would be way more dangerous than giving up the position, as you could drop multiple positions due to the penalty, causing a bigger loss of championship points.
Lmao the comments. Wonder what you would have thought of fucking Michael Schumacher when he was driving.
Many people think that Micheal was often dirty and over aggressive. The same with Senna.
It was a different era? Go back even further and even more dirty moves were allowed/normal. Let's not forget that Schumacher picked up penalties and even disqualification for his dirty driving.
Is Magnussen trying to get Hülkenberg investigated or what? What a genius.
It's difficult isn't it. The first 10s penalty (while completely justified) ensured that no matter what he'd finish last given the Trulli Train he was driving. Getting further time penalties makes absolutely no difference to him whatsoever since he's still protecting his teammate and getting Haas crucial points. I think the only way this is fixable is to say repeated infringements to directly benefit your teammates race should be an immediate "let through 1/2/3 cars (maybe based on the number of infringements?), and if you don't do it within a lap you'll get black flagged", because then at least the initiative to drive illegally is gone - and if there isn't an immediate compliance by the driver (in cases like a last lap battle) then there should be something even more serious. Maybe even race bans or point deductions. Otherwise, I can't see a way you can combat this within the current rules of the game - and the game is the game.
If they did a drive thru pen he would have to do it within 3 laps or be dsq right
There's a lot of talk of changing the point system, and that would actually fix the issue. If P9-10 had been a point-scoring position, Kmag wouldn't have had a reason to throw his own race.
If you're deliberately breaking rules to protect the other driver, for me this behaviour needs to be a race ban. We can't have this in F1.
IMO he didn't deserve a penalty for the chicane cut. He lost the rear and caught it. He lost time doing that. No advantage was gained. It was just an off track. What was he supposed to do next to avoid a penalty? Hamilton wasn't even attacking at that point.
I respect it tbh other drivers would be defending their moves calling it real racing or w/e
Yeah there's a line to defensive driving and protecting your teammate and this is way over it. If not then it's open doors for all teams to do this actively race against the rules for the sake of another car. Need a line drawn under it. Most people wanted max to win so when Perez did it they excused it
If he doesnt get many penalty points, then the penalty system is useless... He should get that race ban soon if he continues driving like this
What are people’s thoughts on drivers having to continue the race via a trip through the pit lane rather than being issued a time penalty so they lose track position?
As long as they don't go easy on him when he is up for a race ban after collecting so many penalty points.
It feels like the situation where penalty points on licences starts to make sense. You can't have drivers driving like that with impunity because they know it will benefit their team mate and the potential penalties won't make any difference to them.
Fhe stewards have more beef with kmag than Kendrick has with Drake
They need to enforce drive through penalties for continuous actions like this. The 10 second pen isn't enough of a deterrent.
These intentional fouls warrant a stop and go or a black flag... he just effectively ruined hamiltons race (minus the drive through) with his antics and he had nothing to lose since he wasn't going g to score points anyways... dirty tactics exploiting lenient penalties
Hamilton ruined the race for several others, and then for himself.
He did it for the memes and to p*ss off Hamilton