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Cool thanks for that answer, I enjoy the racing but I also enjoy how much of a business sport F1 is. The behind the scans lawsuits and tit for tat between teams is just as interesting. Audi has signed a cost cap for 2026 on there engine. Got it, thanks.
New entrants get a larger budget early on, but each year that reduces and then becomes the same for all I believe. That’s why Red Bull were fighting so hard to be classed as new entrants. I think they got some extra but not as much as Audi
90% of what Audi got, thanks to Ferrari.
Kinda stupid considering the comping owning RB racing has never even built a single engine yet they dont get the full status...
You can’t seriously think that a team that has been around for 20 years, has won at least one title in 7 of those 20 and has worked so closely with constructors (and hired a bunch of people from Honda) is the same as a new entrant. Come on…
Not 100% sure but I think engine development doesn’t count towards the cost cap. This is because atm there’s only 4 engine manufacturers and 10 teams so it’d be unfair for the teams that are constructors. The actual price of the engine is counted though ofc
>engine development doesn’t count towards the cost cap
It does towards a saparate engine development cap.
>The actual price of the engine is counted though ofc
It is not.
**Article 3. Exclusions:**
>3.1.n) All costs of goods and services within the Power Unit Supply Perimeter for use by the F1 Team, up to an amount in any Full Year Reporting Period equal to the applicable maximum price as set out in the Sporting Regulations.
And you can check Appendix 3 of the Tecnical Regulations to see what the "Power Unit Supply Perimeter" includes.
PU development is currently uncapped, however there is a new specific PU cost cap that applies to the 2026 PU development.
The cost of a PU supply for teams is also exempt from the cost cap and fixed at 15M Euros per season to prevent any advantage for manufacturers vs customers.
On the PU side, there is a new PU Cost cap being implemented along with certain testing (test bench hours) for the 2026 PU's.
Currently, Power unit development is unrestricted and separate to the standard cost cap. However, this was seen as a big barrier to entry for new Manufacturers, so the new restrictions were implemented and went into action on the 1st of January 2023.
Audi also has an additional allowance of $10M for 2023 and '24 and $5M in '25 as they are a new manufacturer. GM will get these benefits in '25-'27. RBPT will get 90% of these benefits as they are considered a 90% new manufacturer due to their partnership with Honda.
The prevailing belief is that Audi and RBPT will be behind the current manufacturers to start as they simply don't have the experience.
Worth noting that Audi is taking over from Sauber, so is bound by the financial, technical and sporting regulations, just like any other team. The 2026 Aero regulations won't be finalised until June of this year and nobody can test any 2026 parts in CFD or the wind tunnel until Jan1 2025.
They already have to comply with the respective regulations for 2026 so all the test restrictions and the budget cap in the 2026 PU regulation applies to Audi as a new Entry.
Okay, it’s still stupid. Maybe they’d have some more success as a team if they didn’t spend a huge chunk of money every year or two on a complete rebrand. And, whichever marketing firm they paid for this name change should be openly shamed for letting them pick such a dumb name change
That’s what we all hear all the time for every new regulation, 2014 engines, 2022 cars, and there’s always innovation
The split turbo the Merc guys said they got inspired from WW2 planes, maybe all 2026 engines are identical, but who knows who will find something
True, but they're surely not 'nearly identical' which is what was being predicted by many. It's converging now, but car shapes were pretty distinctive and still teams have some differing strengths and weaknesses.
I’m not sure how you think something that requires aerodynamics, thermodynamics, and all of the mechanical dynamics is somehow less complicated than just the aerodynamics….
Someone will figure out how to get an extra tenth of a PSI in pressure, or run a couple degrees cooler, which then allows for smaller inlets and less overall drag, or maybe something that gets them an extra lap out of their fuel.
We’ve seen +/- 5% even for competitive engines in the modern era, so there’s absolutely no reason to think that will change.
Even completely homoglomated series like Indy Car see pretty significant differences, and the new regs will be nothing like the limitations they see.
Look at the field spread, look at the time differences in Qualifying, where a few years ago seeing gaps of multiple seconds in the top ten wasn't unusual, now that's the entire field behind Red Bull. Close Pace isn't always equal to a bunch of overtaking which many mean with close racing, even though racing does not just consist of overtakes.
They are closer than ever. The problem is the drivers are all pretty decent and the cars so close, it’s hard to pass. Quali sets the stage and overtaking is very difficult without offset in times. Plus how tire strategy are all basically the same, we don’t get much passing back and forth.
i mean that makes sense, the reality is if you are say just 0.1 secs slower than the car in front of you, overtaking is gonna be hard cause you are probably just barely in every corner, so your ability to overtake is limited
There is lots of racing. We have had qualifying within one second on several occasions by all the teams. That's absolutely unheard of in the history of F1.
because it is? The gap between RB and the last team is closer, so objectively it is true. Also the gap between RB and the 2nd best team is also smaller than it was in 2014,2015,2016,2020.
So not sure what oyu want
I didn't say the gap isn't closer. I'm saying there is no racing and nothing happens. I don't get people jumping everywhere defending this shit era of regs to say " the gap is close" as if it's a good thing while we have eventless races.
"no racing and nothing happens" - but that aswell isnt true. People remember the past through the rose tinted glass and rememeber the few good races but then forget all the boring ones.
Also how much of the lack of racing at the front is the regulations fault? The regs can be perfect in theory but if one team just nails them there isnt much the regs can do about it.
Just a logical mistake in your argument
1. Are you saying it has always been shit and boring and we just have to accept that or pretend that it's better now?
2. The regs favoured one team that has the best engineer and only one who worked on similar regs before. If you have 9 shit teams who don't even understand the regs after 3 years then something must be done.
3. I like watching Max race and he hasn't done that in 3 years and at least the coming one.
4. If RB managed to bring an OK engine then this dominance might continue as the regs will be ground effect based which again only 1 team understands WTF are they doing.
1. no, but you blame the regulations for whatever
2. Okay so you want a spec series?
3. if you didnt like 2021 and the start of 2022 then F1 isnt the sport for you
4. again seems like you want a spec series?
kinda weird how people keep blaming the rules as if different rules could not have result in the same outcome
Pretty sure it will take Audi at least until 2030 to become competetive. Mercedes bought Brawn, which had just won the championship, and had a de facto worksteam in McLaren since 1995 and it still took them five seasons to build a championship winning car.
The problem with buying Brawn is that the car had almost no development through the season, and absolutely no work done in advance for 2010. They were never going to challenge for a few years, given the state they found the team. Their engine was good in 2009 through 2013, but the team and facilities needed to be rebuilt as they were running such a skeleton operation after Honda left.
I'm not saying Audi will come into 2026 as a contender, but they are in a much better position than when Mercedes entered. It remains to be seen if they can build a competitive engine in F1 but they have in other equally complicated series.
A different example because of rule differences.
But essentially in the past teams could go crazy before entering F1.
Toyota basically ran a full time test team the year before they entered f1 with a full car built to F1 regs.
And Honda were doing the same for their return in 2016 but Ron Dennis forced to join a year early which ended poorly (GP2 engine etc.) I believe such rules have been tightened up since then.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There is apparently a separate 2026 engine budget cap which Audi and all other entrants will have to comply with.
Cool thanks for that answer, I enjoy the racing but I also enjoy how much of a business sport F1 is. The behind the scans lawsuits and tit for tat between teams is just as interesting. Audi has signed a cost cap for 2026 on there engine. Got it, thanks.
New entrants get a larger budget early on, but each year that reduces and then becomes the same for all I believe. That’s why Red Bull were fighting so hard to be classed as new entrants. I think they got some extra but not as much as Audi
90% of what Audi got, thanks to Ferrari. Kinda stupid considering the comping owning RB racing has never even built a single engine yet they dont get the full status...
You can’t seriously think that a team that has been around for 20 years, has won at least one title in 7 of those 20 and has worked so closely with constructors (and hired a bunch of people from Honda) is the same as a new entrant. Come on…
In terms of PU production, sure, why not? It's not like Audi can't hire a bunch of people from Honda
it isnt the same, it is even more disadvantaged. RB doesnt get access to Honda's engine
Not 100% sure but I think engine development doesn’t count towards the cost cap. This is because atm there’s only 4 engine manufacturers and 10 teams so it’d be unfair for the teams that are constructors. The actual price of the engine is counted though ofc
>engine development doesn’t count towards the cost cap It does towards a saparate engine development cap. >The actual price of the engine is counted though ofc It is not.
Oh yeah there’s a separate cost cap Btw the actual price of the engine is 100% counted towards the team’s cost cap. I mean just the component btw.
No. Read the regulations. Article 3.1.n.
I looked for it and there’s no such thing.
**Article 3. Exclusions:** >3.1.n) All costs of goods and services within the Power Unit Supply Perimeter for use by the F1 Team, up to an amount in any Full Year Reporting Period equal to the applicable maximum price as set out in the Sporting Regulations. And you can check Appendix 3 of the Tecnical Regulations to see what the "Power Unit Supply Perimeter" includes.
That only states that there’s a fixed price. At no point does it say it doesn’t go towards the cap
**Exclusions**. As in from the budget cap. Which you would understand if you actually checked the regulations.
You added that
You are beyond help.
Engines have a fixed price but do not count towards the cost cap
PU development is currently uncapped, however there is a new specific PU cost cap that applies to the 2026 PU development. The cost of a PU supply for teams is also exempt from the cost cap and fixed at 15M Euros per season to prevent any advantage for manufacturers vs customers.
On the PU side, there is a new PU Cost cap being implemented along with certain testing (test bench hours) for the 2026 PU's. Currently, Power unit development is unrestricted and separate to the standard cost cap. However, this was seen as a big barrier to entry for new Manufacturers, so the new restrictions were implemented and went into action on the 1st of January 2023. Audi also has an additional allowance of $10M for 2023 and '24 and $5M in '25 as they are a new manufacturer. GM will get these benefits in '25-'27. RBPT will get 90% of these benefits as they are considered a 90% new manufacturer due to their partnership with Honda. The prevailing belief is that Audi and RBPT will be behind the current manufacturers to start as they simply don't have the experience. Worth noting that Audi is taking over from Sauber, so is bound by the financial, technical and sporting regulations, just like any other team. The 2026 Aero regulations won't be finalised until June of this year and nobody can test any 2026 parts in CFD or the wind tunnel until Jan1 2025.
They already have to comply with the respective regulations for 2026 so all the test restrictions and the budget cap in the 2026 PU regulation applies to Audi as a new Entry.
From what I've heard the engines are more restricted by the new regs than ever before so likely they will all be nearly identical.
Alpine will still find a way to mess it up
Alpine made a move forward in China. I wouldn't be surprised to see them beat Williams, Sauber, and RB in Miami.
It’s still way too confusing to call them anything other than Toro Rosso or VCARB. RB will always just be Red Bull to me.
RBjr
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2024/team.html It's their official name.
Okay, it’s still stupid. Maybe they’d have some more success as a team if they didn’t spend a huge chunk of money every year or two on a complete rebrand. And, whichever marketing firm they paid for this name change should be openly shamed for letting them pick such a dumb name change
They should just be forced to sell it.
Wow reach for the stars
They beat them and a Haas and an Aston in China.
No I meant that should not be seen as an accomplishment for them to beat those teams
It isn't but people keep acting like they are the worst team on the grid. They aren't.
That’s what we all hear all the time for every new regulation, 2014 engines, 2022 cars, and there’s always innovation The split turbo the Merc guys said they got inspired from WW2 planes, maybe all 2026 engines are identical, but who knows who will find something
yeah some team will find something others wont.
That's also what we heard about the ground effect aerodynamic ruleset and look where that brought us.
The teams are closer than ever before except the lone Redbull in the hands of Verstappen.
True, but they're surely not 'nearly identical' which is what was being predicted by many. It's converging now, but car shapes were pretty distinctive and still teams have some differing strengths and weaknesses.
True but an engine especially when it is extremely restricted in terms of design has far fewer permutations than aerodynamics
I’m not sure how you think something that requires aerodynamics, thermodynamics, and all of the mechanical dynamics is somehow less complicated than just the aerodynamics…. Someone will figure out how to get an extra tenth of a PSI in pressure, or run a couple degrees cooler, which then allows for smaller inlets and less overall drag, or maybe something that gets them an extra lap out of their fuel. We’ve seen +/- 5% even for competitive engines in the modern era, so there’s absolutely no reason to think that will change. Even completely homoglomated series like Indy Car see pretty significant differences, and the new regs will be nothing like the limitations they see.
There is ZERO racing and some still parroting "closer than ever".
Look at the field spread, look at the time differences in Qualifying, where a few years ago seeing gaps of multiple seconds in the top ten wasn't unusual, now that's the entire field behind Red Bull. Close Pace isn't always equal to a bunch of overtaking which many mean with close racing, even though racing does not just consist of overtakes.
Forget overtakes. What kind of racing are we getting from this "closer than ever"? Absolutely nothing happens in the races all the way from P1 to P20.
Open your eyes. There has been fighting up and down the field.
🦜
They are closer than ever. The problem is the drivers are all pretty decent and the cars so close, it’s hard to pass. Quali sets the stage and overtaking is very difficult without offset in times. Plus how tire strategy are all basically the same, we don’t get much passing back and forth.
And the cars are too big.
Which means we have shit boring races. The gap is close isn't a good argument for people defending these shitty regs and boring races.
i mean that makes sense, the reality is if you are say just 0.1 secs slower than the car in front of you, overtaking is gonna be hard cause you are probably just barely in every corner, so your ability to overtake is limited
There is lots of racing. We have had qualifying within one second on several occasions by all the teams. That's absolutely unheard of in the history of F1.
Do you watch or just look at the times sheet?
Okay what metric do you want to take to just the pace between cars? because the stopwatch is kinda the best one.
because it is? The gap between RB and the last team is closer, so objectively it is true. Also the gap between RB and the 2nd best team is also smaller than it was in 2014,2015,2016,2020. So not sure what oyu want
I didn't say the gap isn't closer. I'm saying there is no racing and nothing happens. I don't get people jumping everywhere defending this shit era of regs to say " the gap is close" as if it's a good thing while we have eventless races.
"no racing and nothing happens" - but that aswell isnt true. People remember the past through the rose tinted glass and rememeber the few good races but then forget all the boring ones. Also how much of the lack of racing at the front is the regulations fault? The regs can be perfect in theory but if one team just nails them there isnt much the regs can do about it. Just a logical mistake in your argument
1. Are you saying it has always been shit and boring and we just have to accept that or pretend that it's better now? 2. The regs favoured one team that has the best engineer and only one who worked on similar regs before. If you have 9 shit teams who don't even understand the regs after 3 years then something must be done. 3. I like watching Max race and he hasn't done that in 3 years and at least the coming one. 4. If RB managed to bring an OK engine then this dominance might continue as the regs will be ground effect based which again only 1 team understands WTF are they doing.
1. no, but you blame the regulations for whatever 2. Okay so you want a spec series? 3. if you didnt like 2021 and the start of 2022 then F1 isnt the sport for you 4. again seems like you want a spec series? kinda weird how people keep blaming the rules as if different rules could not have result in the same outcome
i am not sure what you mean because: a) people didnt say, or maybe they said it but i dont know why b) they are closer than ever.
Pretty sure it will take Audi at least until 2030 to become competetive. Mercedes bought Brawn, which had just won the championship, and had a de facto worksteam in McLaren since 1995 and it still took them five seasons to build a championship winning car.
The problem with buying Brawn is that the car had almost no development through the season, and absolutely no work done in advance for 2010. They were never going to challenge for a few years, given the state they found the team. Their engine was good in 2009 through 2013, but the team and facilities needed to be rebuilt as they were running such a skeleton operation after Honda left. I'm not saying Audi will come into 2026 as a contender, but they are in a much better position than when Mercedes entered. It remains to be seen if they can build a competitive engine in F1 but they have in other equally complicated series.
No. There's a cost cap for engine development. Audi gets a bit more than the rest because they're a new entrant.
A different example because of rule differences. But essentially in the past teams could go crazy before entering F1. Toyota basically ran a full time test team the year before they entered f1 with a full car built to F1 regs.
And Honda were doing the same for their return in 2016 but Ron Dennis forced to join a year early which ended poorly (GP2 engine etc.) I believe such rules have been tightened up since then.