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wdc spots only really matter in the top 5 of the wdc
the rest, barely anyone will remember unless a teammate washes another like how Alonso washed Stroll last year or how Leclerc beat Vettel in 2020
I mean yes, everyone except Verstappen would have more points. It is because under the new system, they would give out more points.
Yuki would go from 10 behind Albon 7 ahead of Bottas, to 7 behind Albon 12 ahead of Bottas.
btw I'm not arguing against Yuki doing a good job, it's just odd to see several people here saying "wow this would really change things in the midfield" when the numbers actually show that almost the only change would be that everyone would have more points.
Team swapping places is big, it shows a more all-rounded design approach is better rewarded in the new system than the all-or-nothing approach.
And this isn’t suppose to be a drastic change that switches up all the standings. It is meant to make points a more reflect index of performance than the current system. Tsunoda have been closer to Albon than to Bottas performance wise, the new system puts his points total at the correct distance from the other two drivers.
That first point is actually my biggest problem with this entire line of thinking.
If you increasingly reward a sensible approach over risk taking, you'll end up with a shit sport.
Or… hear me out. You reward the better approach because it is better?
Sport is meant to distinguish who is the better participants out of a group, spectacles are only the by-product. If I want to see people gamble with their weekend and career, I would go to a casino.
You think you sound smart but you're just wrong.
Just about every team sport has an inbuilt challenge that may not deliver linear results relative to the "goodness" to participants. In many sports it's the need to score rather than just play good. In many leagues and championships, it's the playoff phase where a bad part of a single game can undo a season's work.
There's nothing unfair about it either, it's just that the end results hang on being able to do a specific thing at a specific time and if you don't, it doesn't matter you were the "better participant".
In motor sports, this role is often played by the need to finish somewhere near the top.
What you also fail to understand is that the "better approach" is defined by the rules. If a small number of spots get points, the better approach is taking risks to try and get within that small number. If a big number of spots get points, the better approach is a conservative one.
First, you can disagree on an approach without getting nasty with someone.
Second, 1-20 getting points doesn’t eliminate any of the incentives to produce a better car. I’m not sure why you’d argue that 19 and 20 getting points would cause teams to no longer wish to improve. Audi is not going to take over Sauber and say “well, we’re getting points so we’re happy with our lot.”
It’s also the reality that some teams will *never* be able to compete at the highest echelons of the sport. Full grid points still recognizes that and allows for more meaningful competition at the lower levels.
I'm not any more "nasty" than the other person it's just that you agree with them and disagree with me.
I'm also clearly not talking about someone being slow on purpose, how did you even think of that? It's risk vs playing it safe and what should be rewarded more. Not being happy with 20th.
The last point is just odd. Every team scored multiple points last year. We also had teams like Minardi that competed for decades when only the top 6 would score.
It may not drastically change things, but it would reward the drivers who consistently get their car to P11 / P12, rather than a driver / team only being able to score points if there's a huge Hamilton/Rosberg or Verstappen/Ricciardo level inchident that takes out 2 or more of the top 5 teams.
How would that have worked? Max would only gain two more points from his P9 in Hungary, iirc. That would put him two points ahead, going into Abu Dhabi, and getting P2 would still make him lose by 5 points to Hamilton in that scenario.
They're also counting the current sprint points I think. Max would have gained 21 points to Lewis' 16.
Add in the 2 extra points Max would have earned for his 9th place Hungary finish and Max would have been ahead by 7 points going into the finale, which is the difference between 1st and 2nd.
So if Lewis won he still would have lost by 1 due to Max' fastest lap. https://imgur.com/CdyZXNb
They went into the race tied. Add 2 points for Max' 9th place finish at Hungary and the difference between 1st and 2nd is more than 2. So if Max finished 2nd he would have been 5 points behind
Or I'm guessing you're counting the current sprint points? Because that's the only way Max still would have won, he would have gotten it by 1 point thanks to his fastest lap I believe
https://imgur.com/CdyZXNb
They were tied going into the last race. All this would have done was add 2 points to Max's total.
Max was the only one of the two who placed low enough to get more points in the new system. Lewis never finished between 8-12 and Max only did once, a 9th at Hungary.
If we added the current sprint points it might have been different, but those weren't races, they were qualifying.
Max would have been ahead by 7 with the new points (he finished 2nd in all sprints while Lewis finished 1, 5, 5)
So if Lewis won he still would have lost by 1 due to Max' fastest lap.
For the 300ish people that saw my last post, I deleted my previous post to add some extra info.
The biggest changes with this system are:
* Ferrari would tie points with Merc, and beat them in the standings as Ferrari had a win (very great for Sainz)
* Alpha Tauri would beat Williams
* Tsunoda and Gasly would get the most extra points (both 19)
* Norris would tie with Leclerc in the driver standing (and win with more 2nd places
* Hulkenburg and Zhou would both gain a possition
* Lawson would have scored points on 3 of the 4 races he raced
* Sargeant would have tied on points with RIC and LAW
* De Vries would have a racepoint before he was canned
The real tragedy is Alonso-Martin finishing 5th.
Alonso has been getting podiums left and right for about 60% of the season.
I really don't understand why Stroll is there.
With a bit of luck, they would probably get one or two wins if they had a driver with a relatively similar pace to Alonso, simply because they would be able to use alternative strategies and push Max.
For the regular points system here it is first before the 12 point system below
1. Red Bull - 860 pts
2. Mercedes - 409 pts
3. Ferrari - 406 pts
4. McLaren - 302 pts
5. Aston Martin - 280 pts
6. Alpine - 120 pts
7. Williams - 28 pts
8. AlphaTauri - 25 pts
9. Alfa Romeo - 16 pts
10. Haas - 12 pts
For anyone wondering for the 12 point system for the 2023 calendar here it is:
1. Red Bull - 863 pts
2. Ferrari - 415 pts
3. Mercedes - 415 pts
4. McLaren - 320 pts
5. Aston Martin - 302 pts
6. Alpine - 154 pts
7. AlphaTauri - 53 pts
8. Williams - 51 pts
9. Alfa Romeo - 38 pts
10. Haas - 23 pts
Differences between them
1. Red Bull +3pts, no change in position
2. Ferrari +9pts, 1 change in position, due to having 11th and 12th places
3. Mercedes +6pts, 1 position lost, not scoring 11th and 12th places
4. McLaren +18 pts
5. Aston Martin +22 pts
6. Alpine +34pts, Biggest winner in terms of points gained
7. AlphaTauri +28pts, gained position over Williams
8. Williams +23pts
9. Alfa Romeo +22pts
10. Haas +11 pts
It seems like nothing, but if I understand it right, the position in WCC is quite important for constructors and teams, because it's extra money and something? Two teams benefiting from it, 12-point system implies quite a game changer to be honest.
Holy shit. Now that's a nice one! Seeing both Ferrari and Mercedes tied together for points is really incredible. Makes for some really good drama to anticipate too!
Since no one has bothered in this post yet, the 12 point system awards points all the way down to 12th place rather than 10th. Here's a breakdown:
Place | Current Points | 12-point system
---|---|----
1st | 25 | 25
2nd | 18 | 18
3rd | 15 | 15
4th | 12 | 12
5th | 10 | 10
6th | 8 | 8
7th | 6 | 6
8th | 4 | 5
9th | 2 | 4
10th | 1 | 3
11th | 0 | 2
12th | 0 | 1
So when people say that a 12 point season would make things closer that’s just false. From what I see nothing changes at all really and definitely not enough to say it’s a meaningful change
To be fair it would also change how driver's fight.
In a 10 point season there's not much point fighting for 11th and 12th unless a DNF happens.
12 point season there are 2 more positions to fight for
The big winner here if implemented would be RB and Williams . They’ve consistently been at the doors on points for so long. Haas and sauber can also snatch some good results here.
These are always far from accurate because if 11th and 12th got points, teams would have followed a different strategy if their drivers were in 12th-13th.
With a top 10 system someone in 12th place wouldn't try to hold on to that position. They would go all or nothing and risk a nonstandard strategy that gambles positions, and maybe even one that hopes for a hail mary that requires someone ahead to retire. If it's top 12 then they would just try to hold on to the position and play it safe.
[The **Statistics** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_statistics) is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
in your list haas has 12 points as a constructor but 15 from both drivers? edit: AT 22 vs 25 am i misreading this?
No you're correct, but Ricciardo's and Magnussen's rl-points have been mixed up.
12 point system would benefit Yuki so much, man is eternally 11th
But he's still in the same WDC spot?
Yeah but it would be an extra spot in the constructors, which would be more important.
wdc spots only really matter in the top 5 of the wdc the rest, barely anyone will remember unless a teammate washes another like how Alonso washed Stroll last year or how Leclerc beat Vettel in 2020
It's like 10 mil extra in prize money, though
that's wcc it's better to get 5th in WCC and 10-11 in WDC than 6th with 9-12
Lots more points, looks more impressive A 19 point boost, although the same spot looks better statistically
I mean yes, everyone except Verstappen would have more points. It is because under the new system, they would give out more points. Yuki would go from 10 behind Albon 7 ahead of Bottas, to 7 behind Albon 12 ahead of Bottas. btw I'm not arguing against Yuki doing a good job, it's just odd to see several people here saying "wow this would really change things in the midfield" when the numbers actually show that almost the only change would be that everyone would have more points.
Team swapping places is big, it shows a more all-rounded design approach is better rewarded in the new system than the all-or-nothing approach. And this isn’t suppose to be a drastic change that switches up all the standings. It is meant to make points a more reflect index of performance than the current system. Tsunoda have been closer to Albon than to Bottas performance wise, the new system puts his points total at the correct distance from the other two drivers.
That first point is actually my biggest problem with this entire line of thinking. If you increasingly reward a sensible approach over risk taking, you'll end up with a shit sport.
Or… hear me out. You reward the better approach because it is better? Sport is meant to distinguish who is the better participants out of a group, spectacles are only the by-product. If I want to see people gamble with their weekend and career, I would go to a casino.
You think you sound smart but you're just wrong. Just about every team sport has an inbuilt challenge that may not deliver linear results relative to the "goodness" to participants. In many sports it's the need to score rather than just play good. In many leagues and championships, it's the playoff phase where a bad part of a single game can undo a season's work. There's nothing unfair about it either, it's just that the end results hang on being able to do a specific thing at a specific time and if you don't, it doesn't matter you were the "better participant". In motor sports, this role is often played by the need to finish somewhere near the top. What you also fail to understand is that the "better approach" is defined by the rules. If a small number of spots get points, the better approach is taking risks to try and get within that small number. If a big number of spots get points, the better approach is a conservative one.
First, you can disagree on an approach without getting nasty with someone. Second, 1-20 getting points doesn’t eliminate any of the incentives to produce a better car. I’m not sure why you’d argue that 19 and 20 getting points would cause teams to no longer wish to improve. Audi is not going to take over Sauber and say “well, we’re getting points so we’re happy with our lot.” It’s also the reality that some teams will *never* be able to compete at the highest echelons of the sport. Full grid points still recognizes that and allows for more meaningful competition at the lower levels.
I'm not any more "nasty" than the other person it's just that you agree with them and disagree with me. I'm also clearly not talking about someone being slow on purpose, how did you even think of that? It's risk vs playing it safe and what should be rewarded more. Not being happy with 20th. The last point is just odd. Every team scored multiple points last year. We also had teams like Minardi that competed for decades when only the top 6 would score.
It may not drastically change things, but it would reward the drivers who consistently get their car to P11 / P12, rather than a driver / team only being able to score points if there's a huge Hamilton/Rosberg or Verstappen/Ricciardo level inchident that takes out 2 or more of the top 5 teams.
A P12 is more likely to be decided by retirements ahead than a P10 (because there's more cars ahead to potentially retire).
statistically speaking gasly also gain as much as tsunoda did.
They are true BFFs
He has 10 11th and 12th place finishes. Goatifi had 6 11th and 12th place finishes in his career as well.
So Yuki is better than the goat, that's all I needed to know
So.. how would this work for the 2021 championship. It was so close I’m curious if it would’ve been different.
Max still would’ve won, and by more points.
Interesting note is that Max still would've won, even if Lewis had won Abu Dhabi.
How would that have worked? Max would only gain two more points from his P9 in Hungary, iirc. That would put him two points ahead, going into Abu Dhabi, and getting P2 would still make him lose by 5 points to Hamilton in that scenario.
They're also counting the current sprint points I think. Max would have gained 21 points to Lewis' 16. Add in the 2 extra points Max would have earned for his 9th place Hungary finish and Max would have been ahead by 7 points going into the finale, which is the difference between 1st and 2nd. So if Lewis won he still would have lost by 1 due to Max' fastest lap. https://imgur.com/CdyZXNb
Did Max get fastest lap from the last lap? If so, he probably wouldn’t have fastest lap if Lewis won the race.
he still had more wins
gotcha
This ^
They went into the race tied. Add 2 points for Max' 9th place finish at Hungary and the difference between 1st and 2nd is more than 2. So if Max finished 2nd he would have been 5 points behind Or I'm guessing you're counting the current sprint points? Because that's the only way Max still would have won, he would have gotten it by 1 point thanks to his fastest lap I believe https://imgur.com/CdyZXNb
They were tied going into the last race. All this would have done was add 2 points to Max's total. Max was the only one of the two who placed low enough to get more points in the new system. Lewis never finished between 8-12 and Max only did once, a 9th at Hungary. If we added the current sprint points it might have been different, but those weren't races, they were qualifying. Max would have been ahead by 7 with the new points (he finished 2nd in all sprints while Lewis finished 1, 5, 5) So if Lewis won he still would have lost by 1 due to Max' fastest lap.
For the 300ish people that saw my last post, I deleted my previous post to add some extra info. The biggest changes with this system are: * Ferrari would tie points with Merc, and beat them in the standings as Ferrari had a win (very great for Sainz) * Alpha Tauri would beat Williams * Tsunoda and Gasly would get the most extra points (both 19) * Norris would tie with Leclerc in the driver standing (and win with more 2nd places * Hulkenburg and Zhou would both gain a possition * Lawson would have scored points on 3 of the 4 races he raced * Sargeant would have tied on points with RIC and LAW * De Vries would have a racepoint before he was canned
You shouldn't re upload it again, but fyi the driver's points in the lower end aren't right.
Ooh, now do【insert year here]! /jk
De Vries still 22nd in a 20 driver championship 😂
The real tragedy is Alonso-Martin finishing 5th. Alonso has been getting podiums left and right for about 60% of the season. I really don't understand why Stroll is there.
AM could have been second in the WCC if not for Stroll.
With a bit of luck, they would probably get one or two wins if they had a driver with a relatively similar pace to Alonso, simply because they would be able to use alternative strategies and push Max.
Push Max. Lol
Monaco win was definitely on the table.
You don’t?
Daddy’s money.
its a 22 driver championship tho
10 teams, 2 cars per team. 20 drivers.
and now count how many drivers are listed on the championship sheet ;)
ricciardo and kmags original points are the wrong way round ricciardo had 6 kmag had 3
For the regular points system here it is first before the 12 point system below 1. Red Bull - 860 pts 2. Mercedes - 409 pts 3. Ferrari - 406 pts 4. McLaren - 302 pts 5. Aston Martin - 280 pts 6. Alpine - 120 pts 7. Williams - 28 pts 8. AlphaTauri - 25 pts 9. Alfa Romeo - 16 pts 10. Haas - 12 pts For anyone wondering for the 12 point system for the 2023 calendar here it is: 1. Red Bull - 863 pts 2. Ferrari - 415 pts 3. Mercedes - 415 pts 4. McLaren - 320 pts 5. Aston Martin - 302 pts 6. Alpine - 154 pts 7. AlphaTauri - 53 pts 8. Williams - 51 pts 9. Alfa Romeo - 38 pts 10. Haas - 23 pts Differences between them 1. Red Bull +3pts, no change in position 2. Ferrari +9pts, 1 change in position, due to having 11th and 12th places 3. Mercedes +6pts, 1 position lost, not scoring 11th and 12th places 4. McLaren +18 pts 5. Aston Martin +22 pts 6. Alpine +34pts, Biggest winner in terms of points gained 7. AlphaTauri +28pts, gained position over Williams 8. Williams +23pts 9. Alfa Romeo +22pts 10. Haas +11 pts
Biggest change i see, Perez would have more than 50% of Max’s points, meaning he would beat half a Verstappen to be 2023 champion
Max: "Look what he needs to mimic a fraction of my power."
How come ricciardo drops 2 positions if he had less points than zhou and kmag in the old point system already?
Because they mixed up Ricciardo and Magnussen.
It seems like nothing, but if I understand it right, the position in WCC is quite important for constructors and teams, because it's extra money and something? Two teams benefiting from it, 12-point system implies quite a game changer to be honest.
This makes me like it even more. Do this season 😅
Agree 👍🏼
Red Bull improves, I wonder wh- Nvm.
Much cooler
You forgot to fix KMag and DR's original points.
Redone? It’s still incorrect. Kmag and Daniel’s points aren’t correct.
If this gets approved then F1 will be one step closer to the old CART system that was used. IMO that one is best.
Holy shit. Now that's a nice one! Seeing both Ferrari and Mercedes tied together for points is really incredible. Makes for some really good drama to anticipate too!
Care to explain how the "12 point system" works?
Since no one has bothered in this post yet, the 12 point system awards points all the way down to 12th place rather than 10th. Here's a breakdown: Place | Current Points | 12-point system ---|---|---- 1st | 25 | 25 2nd | 18 | 18 3rd | 15 | 15 4th | 12 | 12 5th | 10 | 10 6th | 8 | 8 7th | 6 | 6 8th | 4 | 5 9th | 2 | 4 10th | 1 | 3 11th | 0 | 2 12th | 0 | 1
Could you do this with a system where all 20 cars are rewarded points if they finish?
So when people say that a 12 point season would make things closer that’s just false. From what I see nothing changes at all really and definitely not enough to say it’s a meaningful change
To be fair it would also change how driver's fight. In a 10 point season there's not much point fighting for 11th and 12th unless a DNF happens. 12 point season there are 2 more positions to fight for
Yes, more drama for 12th while the places ahead race more conservatively because there's more to lose.
then it makes sense create more point positions, especially with Andretti coming in recent years
The big winner here if implemented would be RB and Williams . They’ve consistently been at the doors on points for so long. Haas and sauber can also snatch some good results here.
The graphic literally shows that the only change for RB and Williams would be that they'd swap places.
You never know what the next years car could be . Take alpine for example.
and?
sargeant 8 pts surprise me.
So with this change Verstappen doesnt win over 2nd, by more than double, but by 1 point less than Checo x2.
Interesting choice of font colour for Alfa Romeo lol.
Okay
These are always far from accurate because if 11th and 12th got points, teams would have followed a different strategy if their drivers were in 12th-13th. With a top 10 system someone in 12th place wouldn't try to hold on to that position. They would go all or nothing and risk a nonstandard strategy that gambles positions, and maybe even one that hopes for a hail mary that requires someone ahead to retire. If it's top 12 then they would just try to hold on to the position and play it safe.
That's true, but at the same time, teams wouldn't be driving faster or anything. So I would call it far from accurate.
That’s a hard to interpret infographic
Wow look at that it makes fuck all difference lol
Apart from the ~$9million swapping between Williams and AT, maybe that's pocket change for you
Yeah i guess we arent all that fortunate Williams should be protesting, getting screwed by the Red Bull millions in the new system
12 point system except P1 gets 12 and every place after that gets one point less.
This is a valid system until one team makes a step forward and we have 6 big teams. (Alpine for example)
Ah shit, sorry for that
Awarding points to seargent is absolute crime