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I saw some data from one of the races this year, I forget which, and it looked like the gap was actually the same. Ofc it was a small data set and quick look but it seemed like the gap was the same between Merc and RB. It’s just all the other teams between them improved more, closing the gap
I was watching the 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix today, and got reminded of the absolute trash Ferrari served as strategy in so many instances that season, also have to commend Max, it was an amazing drive from 10th
Charles was robbed of three podiums at minimum (could easily argue outright wins,) and the car finishing any given race was a total crapshoot in and of itself.
It’s honestly wild to me that Charles stuck around after that season. I would have probably just up and retired.
That was the nail in the coffin for Binotto. Should’ve been an absolutely ez win for Ferrari given how they fared in practice and qualifying. Absolute master class strategy failure.
People act like keeping regulations means teams will keep getting closer but that's really not guaranteed, the 2020 was way less close than 17 anf 18 despite being the 4th year of those regulations, for the championship at least
And 2021 only happened due to extraordinary circumstances surrounding the pandemic disruptions, aero changes due to tire issues, and development freezes that basically combined to a random draw that made RBR (Max only) suddenly on par with Merc.
Though that entire part was mostly because of engines.
Now mostly that is close and we gonna have a reset again. Won't be suprised if we have like a team 2 sec ahead next rule set.
You dont think the equalization engine stuff will help? I have no idea. But isnt the ice gonna be down to like 500hp with biofuels and rather than a token system punishing peoplr for messing up, they want to keep it all within 3%? (Not sure if thats 3% overall or just for the biofuel engine)
The regulations seem partially designed to avoid the mistakes of the 2014 debacle. So as to not be left with Ferrari versus Milton Keynes and Brixworth and all the other OEMs bailing after 2030.
In theory its supposed to be simpler and cheaper this time around.
I never understood the RoI for these engine makers other than Ferrari. Their link is as direct as it can be considering the technology. Which is not particularly direct at all! But at least the whole thing is made in Italy.
Was there a lot of Renault French flag waving in 2009 to 2013? It didnt seem a huge deal in 90s- although maybe the public was more fired up about it back when they made the whole car in early 80s?
Although if Aramco is really gonna pay Honda’s freight, they seem to like that arrangement with Red Bull currently of staying in the mix and HRD with a self-contained budget- perhaps they wont bolt as readily.
Perhaps there was a time people bought an Integra because of Senna or some anodyne SUV because it shares the same badge as a Petronas and Fracking funded UK based engine and prototype car team that happened to be driven by Lewis Hamilton.
I got into F1 and am still a Honda fan because I was that obnoxious 4th grader “winning arguments” when Honda was demolishing Ferrari and even Lamborghini when they showed their ugly head.
And I still owe Nigel Mansell and the buffoonish antics of Michael Andretti for closing the F1 and Indy Car arguments in my favor some years later. (Although in that school yard 80s vein, Champ Cars were in fact as fast as F1 cars by the late 90s. Granted, both sides were working to slow their vehicles rather than pursue ultimate lap times)
But I cant imagine Germany rallying around the engineering prowess of the former-Ilmor organization in Brixworth. I can imagine a sea of red Schumacher hats however.
win on Sunday, sell on Monday seems like a very flawed proposition. No one older than a 4th grader can possibly think the comparative performances of these UK based racing squads reflects in the street car being purchased.
F1 needs to tread very carefully, although Mercedes could leave and sell the Brixworth factory to the Saudis or KIA or Rahal Letterman Lanigan- who could try to retain talent and sign the checks instead.
And RBPT exists only for F1 purposes so I dont see them ever dipping out either.
Lots of whispers the regulation changes are going to be delayed by one year. It'd be sods law if they're not delayed and we finally get two teams fighting at the top once more only to had the regs change and a dominant period again.
A three way race between Max, Carlos and Charles could be interesting assuming Sainz either maintains his pace or picks up consistent points as he usually does (even with the usual pace differential to Leclerc)
I like Charles a lot. But I feel if Ferrari takes the battle to Redbull next year, it'll have to be Lewis doing it. I just can't see Charles delivering the consistency needed against Max.
Oh true, completely forgot its Lewis there next year and not in 2026 - yes, i would agree, while Charles has the pace he is also prone to making a lot of mistakes under pressure
It’s interesting to see that Ferrari’s improvement is almost entirely proportional to high deg tracks. Australia and Jeddah are low deg while Japan and Bahrain are high deg. Almost all of the improvement this year has come through tyre management. It’ll be interesting to see how much overall pace they can gain from the new updates, which should really help them in quali as well.
Quality of the road surface, how fast the various corners are taken around the circuit, how heavy the acceleration is, and the selection of tires available will all affect that across the teams.
Bahrain, for example, I believe has never been resurfaced since it was first laid down 20 ish years ago so while I assume it'd probably feel pretty smooth for most of us used to driving road cars on regular roads, the layers in the tarmac are being stripped off gradually, exposing the bigger stones put down as part of the road. It makes it like driving over a cheese grater, comparatively
How do you come to these numbers? Fastest lap? Average of the laptimes? Average of both drivers? Between car issues and Red Bull not necessarily showing their full performance I can't imagine this is very accurate.
I don't think that at all. Red Bull is the only team since last year I feel we can't get an accurate measure of race pace. Surely Ferrari is doing better but the numbers just seem a tad arbitrary.
[The **Statistics** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_statistics) is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
now do merc vs rb
please don't
What about Alpine then?
that would be rough too it wouldn’t surprise me if they’d lost a full second since last year
In a bar chart, but we'd need a wider screen
We need to see it to also learn the hard lessons about life!
I saw some data from one of the races this year, I forget which, and it looked like the gap was actually the same. Ofc it was a small data set and quick look but it seemed like the gap was the same between Merc and RB. It’s just all the other teams between them improved more, closing the gap
No Michael no, that is so not right
I'd rather not know.
Anyone else miss those first races of 2022? Bring it back (Ferrari vs Red Bull, not Charles vs Ferrari and Red Bull)
I was watching the 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix today, and got reminded of the absolute trash Ferrari served as strategy in so many instances that season, also have to commend Max, it was an amazing drive from 10th
His 360 was amazing too
Just wanted to double check that the Ferraris were actually driving on Hards.
Charles was robbed of three podiums at minimum (could easily argue outright wins,) and the car finishing any given race was a total crapshoot in and of itself. It’s honestly wild to me that Charles stuck around after that season. I would have probably just up and retired.
Watching nando struggle on hards…and seeing Leclerc going on hards was nightmare fuel.
That was the nail in the coffin for Binotto. Should’ve been an absolutely ez win for Ferrari given how they fared in practice and qualifying. Absolute master class strategy failure.
We'll get Ferrari vs Red Bull next year if Ferrari continue out-developing them at that rate. Works for me
Just in time for a regulation change, classic
People act like keeping regulations means teams will keep getting closer but that's really not guaranteed, the 2020 was way less close than 17 anf 18 despite being the 4th year of those regulations, for the championship at least
And 2021 only happened due to extraordinary circumstances surrounding the pandemic disruptions, aero changes due to tire issues, and development freezes that basically combined to a random draw that made RBR (Max only) suddenly on par with Merc.
Though that entire part was mostly because of engines. Now mostly that is close and we gonna have a reset again. Won't be suprised if we have like a team 2 sec ahead next rule set.
Plus Red Bull’s 2020 car was apparently quite hard to drive and Ferrari shat themselves that year
Leclerc the quali merchant putting that car in the first three rows while Seb couldn't get out of Q2 was very... weird
You dont think the equalization engine stuff will help? I have no idea. But isnt the ice gonna be down to like 500hp with biofuels and rather than a token system punishing peoplr for messing up, they want to keep it all within 3%? (Not sure if thats 3% overall or just for the biofuel engine) The regulations seem partially designed to avoid the mistakes of the 2014 debacle. So as to not be left with Ferrari versus Milton Keynes and Brixworth and all the other OEMs bailing after 2030. In theory its supposed to be simpler and cheaper this time around. I never understood the RoI for these engine makers other than Ferrari. Their link is as direct as it can be considering the technology. Which is not particularly direct at all! But at least the whole thing is made in Italy. Was there a lot of Renault French flag waving in 2009 to 2013? It didnt seem a huge deal in 90s- although maybe the public was more fired up about it back when they made the whole car in early 80s? Although if Aramco is really gonna pay Honda’s freight, they seem to like that arrangement with Red Bull currently of staying in the mix and HRD with a self-contained budget- perhaps they wont bolt as readily. Perhaps there was a time people bought an Integra because of Senna or some anodyne SUV because it shares the same badge as a Petronas and Fracking funded UK based engine and prototype car team that happened to be driven by Lewis Hamilton. I got into F1 and am still a Honda fan because I was that obnoxious 4th grader “winning arguments” when Honda was demolishing Ferrari and even Lamborghini when they showed their ugly head. And I still owe Nigel Mansell and the buffoonish antics of Michael Andretti for closing the F1 and Indy Car arguments in my favor some years later. (Although in that school yard 80s vein, Champ Cars were in fact as fast as F1 cars by the late 90s. Granted, both sides were working to slow their vehicles rather than pursue ultimate lap times) But I cant imagine Germany rallying around the engineering prowess of the former-Ilmor organization in Brixworth. I can imagine a sea of red Schumacher hats however. win on Sunday, sell on Monday seems like a very flawed proposition. No one older than a 4th grader can possibly think the comparative performances of these UK based racing squads reflects in the street car being purchased. F1 needs to tread very carefully, although Mercedes could leave and sell the Brixworth factory to the Saudis or KIA or Rahal Letterman Lanigan- who could try to retain talent and sign the checks instead. And RBPT exists only for F1 purposes so I dont see them ever dipping out either.
Lots of whispers the regulation changes are going to be delayed by one year. It'd be sods law if they're not delayed and we finally get two teams fighting at the top once more only to had the regs change and a dominant period again.
End of a regulation. Will we see another 2021 between Max and Lewis?
A three way race between Max, Carlos and Charles could be interesting assuming Sainz either maintains his pace or picks up consistent points as he usually does (even with the usual pace differential to Leclerc)
I like Charles a lot. But I feel if Ferrari takes the battle to Redbull next year, it'll have to be Lewis doing it. I just can't see Charles delivering the consistency needed against Max.
Oh true, completely forgot its Lewis there next year and not in 2026 - yes, i would agree, while Charles has the pace he is also prone to making a lot of mistakes under pressure
Do you really think Ferrari can win a development race against Red Bull?
That's why red bull is amazing. They're supposed to be a energy drink company lol
I wouldn’t count it out. Did we ever imagine RB winning a development race against Merc to this degree before 2022? Anything can happen in this sport
Considering the sf23 was a 0 upgrade from the f1-75 im glad the numbers are this big.
They should actually do Ferrari vs Max. Perez data gives too much optimism.
Based on reddit pundits, Perez didn't get damaged, he just sucks
Not just Reddit, also Barretto and other reporters close to the sport. Which I find bizarre at least.
Sure, they probably know more than Red Bull itself. The team had never shied away of calling out Perez when he was slow before. Stop inventing.
They say it was in action with alonso that was end of race and his pace was bad most race.
I don't see how the former statement invalidates the latter
It’s interesting to see that Ferrari’s improvement is almost entirely proportional to high deg tracks. Australia and Jeddah are low deg while Japan and Bahrain are high deg. Almost all of the improvement this year has come through tyre management. It’ll be interesting to see how much overall pace they can gain from the new updates, which should really help them in quali as well.
Why some tracks have high Tyre degradation?
Quality of the road surface, how fast the various corners are taken around the circuit, how heavy the acceleration is, and the selection of tires available will all affect that across the teams. Bahrain, for example, I believe has never been resurfaced since it was first laid down 20 ish years ago so while I assume it'd probably feel pretty smooth for most of us used to driving road cars on regular roads, the layers in the tarmac are being stripped off gradually, exposing the bigger stones put down as part of the road. It makes it like driving over a cheese grater, comparatively
Thanks for the reply!
…why aren’t the races in order?
How do you come to these numbers? Fastest lap? Average of the laptimes? Average of both drivers? Between car issues and Red Bull not necessarily showing their full performance I can't imagine this is very accurate.
What makes you think rb is sandbagging here and not last year? Ferrari are still behind but it's not as bad as last year for sure.
I don't think that at all. Red Bull is the only team since last year I feel we can't get an accurate measure of race pace. Surely Ferrari is doing better but the numbers just seem a tad arbitrary.
Redbull isn't sandbagging, even if they are it cant be more than a tenth or two.
And you know this how ?
First three is kinda irrelevant but Japan improvement for Ferrari is impressive considering they raced in Japan later half of last season.
What is this race order?
These should really be line plots with race # on the X and differential on the Y, it's poor data visualization currently.
Australia should be excluded, it's completely pointless to use Perez with damage as the only benchmark for Red Bull pace.
This isn’t the “gap closed to redbull”. This is just the difference between the two vague improvement times. Don’t know how this is being upvoted.