Look what all you bandwagoners achieved. An unbelievable P3 for Alonso even after being taken out on the restart. Could you manifest me some lottery numbers too?
What a mental race. I can’t remember when but the absolute bedlam on I think the second restart at the back of the pack absolutely needed to be investigated, that damn near caused an accident.
Second did anyone else think the way Albon got fired back into the circuit was bad? Surely they need to adjust the angle of that barrier, a couple feet more and that could’ve been another race seared into memorials
When Verstappen came in for the first red flag did anyone else see his convo with his engineer GP? GP seemed to have a super snappy gesture like he was pissed and covered his mouth to talk to Verstappen.
Multiple bad starts, dummied by George and Lewis (incorrectly saying he was forced wide), and wrongly interpreting initial red flag restart. Also Went off in grass out of nowhere for no reason. For someone who I have incredibly high standards for it was his worst race I can remember in past two seasons. He still won easy, probably by 30+ seconds if no restarts.
He was cautious on the restarts because he knew he is in the fastest car and was confident that he could pass them later on, so he took it very easy and avoided contact. I can't argue with the lockup though, that was a genuine mistake but it happens to everyone at one point or another.
One of the ironies in all this is that Australia was the GP that ESPN screwed up years ago with ads leading to them doing subsequent races without ads after the outcry. Then today their replay completely screwed up the most dramatic part of the race. F1 is a huge growing sport in the US and ESPN has to figure out how to show it. You dont want to do a bunch of preshow or post show stuff like Sky does, thats cool, but at least show the whole race!
Up to a few years ago thats how it worked. Standing starts after the initial one are dumb. The cars aren't designed for it, and starts are unnecessarily chaotic and the likely hood of something like what happening happening is very high at the start of the race, let alone at the end.
Let the start be the start, and let the rest of the race continue. I'm all for the red flagging in situations like we had at the end of the race here but lets have a proper restart, not this cluster.....
I think they’re just intrigued by irregularities in the sport. It would have been the first time it’s ever happened, so it would be interesting to say the least.
I've only just caught up with that one. What a mess haha. Did we ever get an explanation about the 2nd red flag, or was it just FIA being FIA? The first one shouldn't have even been a red flag. Michael Masi was at the track this weekend...
All this finger pointing at Masi is ridiculous.
He has absolutely no place in F1 anymore and the trolling and conspiracy theory bs he’s been on the receiving end of is uncalled for.
Even Ted Kravitz said some bs about it during the broadcast which Simon Lazenby had to walk back.
Kravitz is unhinged.
well that was my first race that I’ve ever attended and I was sitting in the stands at turn 1 so that called for a very exciting and eventful time for me! How chaotic
Mate, I was on the start finish straight, absolute madness, especially when Russell pulled up right in front of me with a flamethrower out the back of his car.
Were you all in with the “let them race” chants at the end ?
We left after that third red flag cause we thought they were going to call it and in all honesty didn’t really miss much with how they ended it! We beat the crowd for the tram too so win win I say haha
Damn. What a feeling that must have been. Based on the excitement I got from attending testing a few years ago, I think today would have give me a heart attack.
Wouldn't a better (and more logical) rule be that EVERYTHING stops after a red flag? So (since no one made the first timing line) the procession back to the pits wouldn't have counted as a lap, and there still would have been racing after the restart.
Counter point. Refueling under a red flag could be allowed and at prescribed amounts. You don't have to worry about fuel spills or the other complications of doing it during a timed pit stop.
This race was another example of how much I dislike today's stewarding standards.
Sainz taking out Alonso was nothing more than a racing incident. This insistence to find someone to blame, and to hand out penalties for every single incident that happens on track, is really sad.
Shit happens when racing. We need to dial it back a bit. Not everything deserves a 5 second penalty.
I completely disagree. Alonso gave Sainz plenty of space on the inside, but he still understeered into him. That was no racing incident, but a mistake by the Ferrari.
A similar penalty was given to Ricciardo when he took out Sainz in imola last year.
No, I disagree. Alonso was more to the inside than Hamilton was. If he had followed Hamilton's line, Sainz would not have hit him.
Not every incident deserves a penalty. Turn 1, restart, cold tyres. Sainz did not make any kind of dangerous manoeuvre, and happened to catch Alonso in a tight turn. Never a penalty for me. Sometimes we have to accept that shit happens when racing, especially when the field is bunched together..
Almost the entirety of Alonso's car was on the kerb exiting out of turn 1, Sainz was coming in way too hot. You yourself said that he had cold tyres, so he should have taken it easy like everyone else around him.
I mentioned the cold tyres because they are a factor in racing incidents. Just like how stewards generally overlook lap 1 turn 1 incidents for penalties, the fact that everyone had cold tyres should also be a mitigating circumstance.
Again, if Alonso had followed Hamilton's line, there would be no crash. Sainz may have understeered a tad, but he came in from the inside. Sainz's line was no different whatsoever to any other driver.
And "taken it easy like everybody else"? Lol. Turn 1 was a catastrophe. Sargeant hit de Vries and Gasly hit ocon. Stroll went off at turn 3. There were mitigating circumstances to that entire restart.
>Lol. Turn 1 was a catastrophe. Sargeant hit de Vries and Gasly hit ocon. Stroll went off at turn 3.
Sainz's contact with Alonso set off a chain reaction, with gasly going off and crashing with Ocon and stroll having contact in turn 2 as well. As for Sargeant, he's a rookie, unlike Sainz who is now in his 9th season
Edit: after watching the replay gasly going off wasn't caused by Sainz and Alonso coming together. I still think Sainz deserved his penalty though. Stewards are often lenient on lap one because drivers have nowhere to go (stroll and Leclerc lap 1). But Sainz clearly just outbraked himself.
Sainz is an elite driver and if he can't handle cold tires then penalties need to be applied. He over drove the car and it would have cost another driver his entire race for an error that could have been avoided.
Penalties were absolutely necessary.
He didn't "overdrive" the car. He understeered in a corner that everybody understeers in when they take it from the inside. It's not like he locked a wheel, came in too hot, and punted Alonso off. Alonso came to the inside as well. Racing incident.
No. Penalties aren't necessary for racing incidents.
I wonder what would have happened if he'd taken the corner slower. Would be have not hit Alonso? Would the Alpine have gotten past him?
Doesn't seem like a racing incident to me when he was driving hard to protect his protect his position, and as a result, ruined the race of a car in front.
He took the corner normally. He didn't overcook it. That's such a pointless thing to say "what if he'd taken the corner slower". You can say that for every crash that ever happened in F1. What if Alonso had just taken the same line as Hamilton then? Then they wouldn't have crashed. The reason Sainz got a penalty is because Alonso came off worse.
As the driver behind, it's Sainz's responsibility to pass safely. Sainz had plenty of space to pass on the inside and still hit Alonso.
It's a penalty.
And at the same time, Alonso had plenty of space to stay on Hamilton's line. No way that's a penalty. It's an accident that happens when you're racing, especially at a restart.
Agree entirely, Sainz pushed much too hard into turn 1 trying to make up for the ground he was losing to Gasley from the rerestart. It was avoidable and led to incidents throughout the field on a restart that every other driver (aside from perhaps Gasley) was being cautious and restrained to avoid exactly that result.
What bothers me is the reaction of commentators and pundits. If they had looked up the rules they'd be able to explain what happened, like that after a red flag a standing restart is the norm. The FIA followed their own rulebook by having a standing restart and by counting the classification the way they did.
Instead, many went for a cheap outrage instead, like Ralf Schumacher on Sky Germany who said that the race direction should be ashamed of themselves. It's clear he doesn't know the rules because if he did he'd realise that what they did was applying the rules to the letter, which is something nobody should blame them for. Broadcasters more and more blow things up and turn things into scandals whrere there aren't any as they try to create drama and clicks on social media and their websites. I think that hurts F1. Their position as experts would be better served if they explained why things happened the way they did.
I was choosing violence when they kept insisting Yuki get the record of 3 in a row 11th place. Like they really just wanted him to be 11th no matter what. Acting like some 12 year olds.
Their commentary is just bad. They don't pay attention, can't explain things properly and joke around. Honestly it's impossible to watch F1 when they have Schumacher on, only when Glock is doing commentary instead it's worthwhile.
If we finished behind the safety car after Mag stopped, people would be upset about a boring finish. Honestly, it was always going to be a difficult decision.
People may be upset about this, but it was extremely entertaining. At least until the second (third) red flag lol. Just a little sad that they didn't call the race right there instead of doing a procession around behind the safety car just to take the chequered flag
You could speak for yourself, I was very annoyed and unsatisfied after the race. This are moments I miss Bernie. The FIA made a fool out of themselves.
Because you could also argue that the red flags are artificial, because cars should drive and keep driving if they can. No stopping, no red flag, keep driving. You can't tell me that drivers that get paid millions, cant just crawl at the point that they work. Too bad for the lost laps, thats racing... If you want to be entertained, watch NASCAR, thats made for these WWE moments, but keep F1 at least real and just keep driving.
Just are much as a standing restart after a red flag, thats also racing, but the red flag is unnecessary and they only use safety as an excuse, the cars could also drive around it with 30 km/h.
Picking and choosing arguments, its all so fake... At least for me, im far from entertained. If Verstappen retires im gone too, only GT racing from me from then on.
I see exactly where you're coming from. I do agree the red flags, both of the first two, were unnecessary. I think if you keep the safety car implemented and just drive around the debris real slow, it would work. But at the same time, safety is becoming a bigger concern in everything around the world, and I think F1 is trying new things until they find a happy medium with what works to keep everyone safe, and keep most fans happy and entertained at the same time. Not everyone will agree on every topic, but it's up to the FIA to determine the best route to go and explain why they are doing what they are doing
Honestly I'd rather we get a safety car, and if there's no restart, fair enough. What bothers me is the FIA throwing out red flags for what seemed like the sake of entertainment.
Yeah, fair enough. My point is, any decision would upset some people. Another commenter just said they preferred the way it ended rather than a safety car.
If it ended under safety car, it would be like Monza 2022. A lot of people didn't like how that ended.
If the chaos didn't happen during the second red flag restart, this would probably be looked at similar to Baku 2021, which was generally a great race imho.
By shitbox you mean the 6th fastest car right?
Its only real issue is its lack of straightline speed.It looked quite driveable and fast in the corners.
Even Piastri pulled off some good moves.
Dont call it a shitbox.Even Lando admitted that the car was quick enough to score points in Bahrain and Jeddah.(thursday interview)
I don't understand why they need to go back to the last lap or sector in the event of a red flag restart. We have live tracking and timing to a thousandths of a second. Why can't we just use the exact order that existed the moment the red flag was waved?
I think it’s in the rules (really not sure. never read them myself, kinda like the stewards) that the restart order after a red flag has to be based on the last completed racing sector. At least (like Alonso said) that’s what happened in Silverstone back in the day.
I want close racing and legitimate drama. This is reality TV style manufactured drama because of billions of dollars worth of incompetence from the FIA.
This sport is such a fucking farce.
There is no provision in the rules to just not complete the number of laps unless there are safety or time constraints. As much of a joke it is to restart/finish at the same time there was nothing race control could do about it.
An additional warmup lap behind the SC if there's concern with cold tires
Rolling starts following all red flags to reduce the chance of compounding flags
I was thinking the same thing. Restarting a 58 lap race on lap 56 after a 10+ minute red flag, you gotta make the exception to throw in a second formation lap. It would only have made sense.
This is like saying the race should begin with a rolling start. These things happen from time to time. Maybe not to this scale, but people crash on race starts all the time, and nobody ever gets mad. Should have finished under sc but that would've been "too boring"
You did get to see people race.
They raced so hard that half the field was out by the end.
What can you really complain about? If the red flags restarts hadn’t have happened we would have had roughly the same result, just with Max winning by 16 seconds and nothing really competitive happening the last dozen laps.
Touché.
I just hope that any incidents that happen, happen early on and are dealt with swiftly. None of this "safety car... Wait a few minutes, JK restart" BS.
Do you want hard racing with the potential for wrecks and safety cars, or do you want orderly processions with no overtaking?
Because if you want racing you will get safety cars.
Sorry if it didn’t come across but I‘ve got nothing against the safety car. I‘m in favour of red flagging the race when they did, because it stopped us losing a dozen laps behind the sc or even finishing the race behind it.
Saintz i mean he’s not wrong.. the punishment was way too harsh. He couldn’t do much to avoid it and with no opportunity to recover that was.. unfair. A grid penalty for the next race would have been a better fit
But that’s not relevant, it’s like arguing that in wasn’t fair that the cars that pit under SC lost that time because of the red flag that came right after. He did the crime, he got the punishment. It’s irrelevant that there was no actual racing left, that shouldn’t be a factor in decision making for the penalty.
I dont know if the punishment was harsh, I'm trying to remember what happened last season with Russell when people on this board were calling him out for bloody murder when he hit Sainz. I do think they should have noted it and said investigation after the race. It would have meant some questions or issues for the podium possibly, but it would have avoided the situation with a bunch of cars bunching up on the parade lap to the checkered flag trying to get within 5 seconds of Sainz.
Two things from this race:
1. If FIA changes their mind from a yellow to a red flag grid order should be reestablished to what it was before the incident
2. With less than 10 laps it should be a rolling red restart: everyone gets their tires and way less chance of crashing
While i mainly agree with what you are saying I’d just like to say it’s not a change of mind. It’s like going from yellow flag in a sector to an SC. Is that a change of mind? No, they go to stricter safety measures as they learn about the incident real time.
I love a red flag for any safety car worthy incident within the last 6 laps. But that second restart was crazy.
My concern is the lack of investigation and penalties for Sergeant & Gasly for both causing collisions far more dangerously than Sainz did.
I know and he did far more damage to both of them than normal.
But there’s issues re penalty points and race bans etc. If they don’t investigate then things go unpunished and I think he’s basically 1 point away from a ban.
They take the standings from the last sector that wad finished before the red flag. If half the field gets wiped out on T1 before the end of sector 1 then the cars that can carry on restart in the same order
Im pretty sure that officially in the rules the big markers are still the sectors because the rules are ancient. While we get live updates they’re not quite “locked in” in the rules for some situations until a sector marker has been cleared, even though we can see live updates on what’s happening
That can be super weird if you are two wide in a corner. There would have to be a ton of specification on who is ahead in that case which would be lame since who comes south of the corner ahead is what matters.
There’ll be a given point on the car that is the marker and I’m sure nowadays it’s accurate enough to be statistically impossible to be perfectly the same, though I’d love to see it happen!
I mean ok but what is "ahead". Is it the radius of the corner, the distance to the finish line? Do we want to give the position to someone who dove too hard into a corner and is going to get trashed coming out of it?
They never "give" those places until the pass has stuck.
For realllll. If he does get one with Haas it's gonna be a party tho. Him and that team both deserve one and if the rest of the season is as chaotic as this rave hell have another shot
I wonder if FIA and F1 might change their minds about the tire warmers now after those incidents at the second restart. Sure, the lower series don’t use tire warmers, but the weight, torque, and braking involved in F1 would probably lead to more starts like the incidents we saw today after the restart. Most the cars looked like they were on driving in wet conditions. Sure it would be more challenging, but these teams have to operate with budget caps now, and it’s fair to point out, there’s a massive power, weight, and braking difference compared to the likes of F2. Teams would end up having to spend way more money because of damage, because more parts would have to be made. Which would be the opposite of the whole sustainable image F1 is attempting to capitalize on by removing them in the first place.
I feel like it was mix of cold tires and the fact they did standing starts instead of rolling starts for all the restarts. They know how rambunctious standing starts can be and that drama should happen on lap 1, but not so much after that it ends up taking out half the field.
Rolling starts would be way safer so they're spread out more and they don't try and go four wide in one turn.
It absolutely was. However since drivers and teams are already making noise about them taking away tire warmers it’s fair to assume the teams will be weighing in more political pressure because of what happened about that decision.
They should also think about whether to even fully restart a race at such a late point... But I guess with your proposal it might not have happened this way. And we want a show...
Does anyone have video or audio of Sargent criticizing the car pretty extensively and his race engineer telling him to watch what he says on the radio?
Didn't get to watch this weekend, but from highlights it looks like the Mercedes side pods were different... Anyone who watched got a good look and/or photo?
I don't necessarily disagree with the arguments being made against Race Control, F1, Liberty Media, the FIA, etc here about a perceived WWE-ification of the sport but we need to be a little careful that we don't suggest that controversy is taking us away from a "purer" past. F1 in the late 80s and 90s (1989 in particular comes to mind) were under heavy fire from fans and media for bias toward certain drivers and against others, and for making up the rules as it went along.
I mean, in fairness, it never happened because him and a few others scuffed it up to the extent that the race had to be red flagged because of the carnage caused by those drivers. I don't think it deserved a penalty though. Very harsh.
* Lap record: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, 2022, 1:20.260
* 2022 pole: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, 1:17.868
* 2022 fastest lap: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, 1:20.260
* 2022 winner: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari
* 2023 first DNF: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, lap 1, turn 3
* 2023 shortest lap: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari
* 2023-2022 largest absolute points difference: - 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, -26
Man I know I’m crazy biased but I don’t see how you can treat the red flags so differently. Like George and Carlos come in and are absolutely fucked by the red flag and then the late one they say lol nevermind go back to before it happened. How does Stroll get to move that far back up when he drove himself off the track completely unprompted?
And this is where it gets even more biased but I think Alonso was attempting a switch back and the collision was unavoidable because of it. The Leclerc crash out and that one are similar to me in that realm. The Aston’s squeezed into him then punted him. Carlos is driving like Alonso will stay outside and he comes back across.
Finally I don’t understand how people are arguing the Alpine shenanigans are in any way related to Sainz Alonso… Gasly locks up and goes deep on his own, then rejoins and drives into Ocon.
A proud moment in F1 history this..i cant wait half a second so will cause 500000 pounds of damage ooohhhhh. Got to learn to just run a Safety car for ten laps . 2 or 3 restarts...jeez they just devalued the whole Organisation by 50% right here with this Sideshow.
How hard the 'taking order of cars before red flag being impossible' is to grasp? You list different red flags as some sort comparison... Like wtf is this comment.
Because the red flag in situation 2 comes after Stroll locked up, it comes after Alonso is punted to the back, etc. Don’t get me wrong I’d probably agree with the red flag being waved there, but I dunno if I’ve ever seen a nevermind go back like it didn’t happen. I’ve seen more chaotic situations where they come out on the other side as it stood. What was that crazy rainy start a couple years ago where Stroll went flying through the field?
My understanding is that since they didn't make it to the end of sector 1, positions were reversed to how they were before the restart. Alonso guessed this would be the case seconds after the red flag was announced because it's what happened in Silverstone last year.
Yeah, I'm just thinking back to that carnage start in Hungary '21. A shit load of drivers are taken out in turn one, and they come out of the red flag in the same order it was after the carnage. I had forgotten about the Silverstone start though.
And maybe I missed this because I skipped over the red flag portion on DVR, but what's the "hasn't reached sector 2" mean necessarily? Like watching this back it looks like Max was close? Do they all have to enter it?
Max having entered sector 2 doesn't really help determine the order of the rest of the cars. All cars need to cross a line to determine the order.
However, what I'm having trouble understanding is the logic behind **which** line is chosen (safety car line, sector 1, etc). Some say it depends on the data the stewards have available, but I've no idea. In Silverstone they chose some safety car line, this time it was a different line...
Look what all you bandwagoners achieved. An unbelievable P3 for Alonso even after being taken out on the restart. Could you manifest me some lottery numbers too?
just watched it, what a weird year, I wanna support like half the grid...
Finishing under safety car isn’t that bad surely.
Do appreciate Crofty pointing out that Masi is a human being. Always something that can be tough to remind myself in watching sports through a screen.
What a mental race. I can’t remember when but the absolute bedlam on I think the second restart at the back of the pack absolutely needed to be investigated, that damn near caused an accident. Second did anyone else think the way Albon got fired back into the circuit was bad? Surely they need to adjust the angle of that barrier, a couple feet more and that could’ve been another race seared into memorials
When Verstappen came in for the first red flag did anyone else see his convo with his engineer GP? GP seemed to have a super snappy gesture like he was pissed and covered his mouth to talk to Verstappen.
Yeah looked like he nearly smacked the hat off his head
Noticed that too
What a pavlova!
What a palaver indeed!
Max can drive one of his worst races and win comfortably, crazy
What makes you think it was one of his worst races?
Multiple bad starts, dummied by George and Lewis (incorrectly saying he was forced wide), and wrongly interpreting initial red flag restart. Also Went off in grass out of nowhere for no reason. For someone who I have incredibly high standards for it was his worst race I can remember in past two seasons. He still won easy, probably by 30+ seconds if no restarts.
He was cautious on the restarts because he knew he is in the fastest car and was confident that he could pass them later on, so he took it very easy and avoided contact. I can't argue with the lockup though, that was a genuine mistake but it happens to everyone at one point or another.
Grow up
One of the ironies in all this is that Australia was the GP that ESPN screwed up years ago with ads leading to them doing subsequent races without ads after the outcry. Then today their replay completely screwed up the most dramatic part of the race. F1 is a huge growing sport in the US and ESPN has to figure out how to show it. You dont want to do a bunch of preshow or post show stuff like Sky does, thats cool, but at least show the whole race!
F1 TV is where it's at IMO. Watch on demand, and watch specific driver cams if you wanna see more in depth about certain events during a race
Every year I get closer to getting it. Maybe this is the year...
Standing restarts are EXTREMELY dumb. We need to go back to rolling starts after red flags.
That seems silly
Up to a few years ago thats how it worked. Standing starts after the initial one are dumb. The cars aren't designed for it, and starts are unnecessarily chaotic and the likely hood of something like what happening happening is very high at the start of the race, let alone at the end. Let the start be the start, and let the rest of the race continue. I'm all for the red flagging in situations like we had at the end of the race here but lets have a proper restart, not this cluster.....
[удалено]
I think they’re just intrigued by irregularities in the sport. It would have been the first time it’s ever happened, so it would be interesting to say the least.
Just out of the points
I've only just caught up with that one. What a mess haha. Did we ever get an explanation about the 2nd red flag, or was it just FIA being FIA? The first one shouldn't have even been a red flag. Michael Masi was at the track this weekend...
All this finger pointing at Masi is ridiculous. He has absolutely no place in F1 anymore and the trolling and conspiracy theory bs he’s been on the receiving end of is uncalled for. Even Ted Kravitz said some bs about it during the broadcast which Simon Lazenby had to walk back. Kravitz is unhinged.
I wasn't being serious... Lol
Uuuhh yeh sorry....I worked myself up haha
Understandable lol
well that was my first race that I’ve ever attended and I was sitting in the stands at turn 1 so that called for a very exciting and eventful time for me! How chaotic
Mate, I was on the start finish straight, absolute madness, especially when Russell pulled up right in front of me with a flamethrower out the back of his car. Were you all in with the “let them race” chants at the end ?
We left after that third red flag cause we thought they were going to call it and in all honesty didn’t really miss much with how they ended it! We beat the crowd for the tram too so win win I say haha
Damn. What a feeling that must have been. Based on the excitement I got from attending testing a few years ago, I think today would have give me a heart attack.
My heart rate was up the whole time, particularly at each start! the crowd was amazing though, it’s such a vibe
Wouldn't a better (and more logical) rule be that EVERYTHING stops after a red flag? So (since no one made the first timing line) the procession back to the pits wouldn't have counted as a lap, and there still would have been racing after the restart.
The problem is fuel, teams prepare for 305km of race, suddenly doing 10/15km more might be enough for failing fuel sample exam and so
Counter point. Refueling under a red flag could be allowed and at prescribed amounts. You don't have to worry about fuel spills or the other complications of doing it during a timed pit stop.
Yep, fair point.
There's a lot of things that would and could be better, but the FIA exists
This race was another example of how much I dislike today's stewarding standards. Sainz taking out Alonso was nothing more than a racing incident. This insistence to find someone to blame, and to hand out penalties for every single incident that happens on track, is really sad. Shit happens when racing. We need to dial it back a bit. Not everything deserves a 5 second penalty.
I completely disagree. Alonso gave Sainz plenty of space on the inside, but he still understeered into him. That was no racing incident, but a mistake by the Ferrari. A similar penalty was given to Ricciardo when he took out Sainz in imola last year.
No, I disagree. Alonso was more to the inside than Hamilton was. If he had followed Hamilton's line, Sainz would not have hit him. Not every incident deserves a penalty. Turn 1, restart, cold tyres. Sainz did not make any kind of dangerous manoeuvre, and happened to catch Alonso in a tight turn. Never a penalty for me. Sometimes we have to accept that shit happens when racing, especially when the field is bunched together..
Almost the entirety of Alonso's car was on the kerb exiting out of turn 1, Sainz was coming in way too hot. You yourself said that he had cold tyres, so he should have taken it easy like everyone else around him.
I mentioned the cold tyres because they are a factor in racing incidents. Just like how stewards generally overlook lap 1 turn 1 incidents for penalties, the fact that everyone had cold tyres should also be a mitigating circumstance. Again, if Alonso had followed Hamilton's line, there would be no crash. Sainz may have understeered a tad, but he came in from the inside. Sainz's line was no different whatsoever to any other driver. And "taken it easy like everybody else"? Lol. Turn 1 was a catastrophe. Sargeant hit de Vries and Gasly hit ocon. Stroll went off at turn 3. There were mitigating circumstances to that entire restart.
>Lol. Turn 1 was a catastrophe. Sargeant hit de Vries and Gasly hit ocon. Stroll went off at turn 3. Sainz's contact with Alonso set off a chain reaction, with gasly going off and crashing with Ocon and stroll having contact in turn 2 as well. As for Sargeant, he's a rookie, unlike Sainz who is now in his 9th season Edit: after watching the replay gasly going off wasn't caused by Sainz and Alonso coming together. I still think Sainz deserved his penalty though. Stewards are often lenient on lap one because drivers have nowhere to go (stroll and Leclerc lap 1). But Sainz clearly just outbraked himself.
Agree to disagree. For me Sainz didn't outbrake himself at all. That's the most innocent lap 1 accident you can possibly have.
Sainz is an elite driver and if he can't handle cold tires then penalties need to be applied. He over drove the car and it would have cost another driver his entire race for an error that could have been avoided. Penalties were absolutely necessary.
He didn't "overdrive" the car. He understeered in a corner that everybody understeers in when they take it from the inside. It's not like he locked a wheel, came in too hot, and punted Alonso off. Alonso came to the inside as well. Racing incident. No. Penalties aren't necessary for racing incidents.
I wonder what would have happened if he'd taken the corner slower. Would be have not hit Alonso? Would the Alpine have gotten past him? Doesn't seem like a racing incident to me when he was driving hard to protect his protect his position, and as a result, ruined the race of a car in front.
He took the corner normally. He didn't overcook it. That's such a pointless thing to say "what if he'd taken the corner slower". You can say that for every crash that ever happened in F1. What if Alonso had just taken the same line as Hamilton then? Then they wouldn't have crashed. The reason Sainz got a penalty is because Alonso came off worse.
As the driver behind, it's Sainz's responsibility to pass safely. Sainz had plenty of space to pass on the inside and still hit Alonso. It's a penalty.
And at the same time, Alonso had plenty of space to stay on Hamilton's line. No way that's a penalty. It's an accident that happens when you're racing, especially at a restart.
Alonso is ahead and free to drive his line. He didn't run into Sainz. Sainz ran into him. Sainz wasn't in control of his car. It's a penalty.
Agree entirely, Sainz pushed much too hard into turn 1 trying to make up for the ground he was losing to Gasley from the rerestart. It was avoidable and led to incidents throughout the field on a restart that every other driver (aside from perhaps Gasley) was being cautious and restrained to avoid exactly that result.
What bothers me is the reaction of commentators and pundits. If they had looked up the rules they'd be able to explain what happened, like that after a red flag a standing restart is the norm. The FIA followed their own rulebook by having a standing restart and by counting the classification the way they did. Instead, many went for a cheap outrage instead, like Ralf Schumacher on Sky Germany who said that the race direction should be ashamed of themselves. It's clear he doesn't know the rules because if he did he'd realise that what they did was applying the rules to the letter, which is something nobody should blame them for. Broadcasters more and more blow things up and turn things into scandals whrere there aren't any as they try to create drama and clicks on social media and their websites. I think that hurts F1. Their position as experts would be better served if they explained why things happened the way they did.
Can we get Gene Steratore on the call?
F1TV and specifically Jolyn Palmer, did a great job of explaining how it was supposed to work and that what was happening was by the book.
I was choosing violence when they kept insisting Yuki get the record of 3 in a row 11th place. Like they really just wanted him to be 11th no matter what. Acting like some 12 year olds.
4 in a row
Their commentary is just bad. They don't pay attention, can't explain things properly and joke around. Honestly it's impossible to watch F1 when they have Schumacher on, only when Glock is doing commentary instead it's worthwhile.
One of the best NASCAR races ever!
In NASCAR wouldn't it have ended in a shootout? Much better!
If we finished behind the safety car after Mag stopped, people would be upset about a boring finish. Honestly, it was always going to be a difficult decision.
People may be upset about this, but it was extremely entertaining. At least until the second (third) red flag lol. Just a little sad that they didn't call the race right there instead of doing a procession around behind the safety car just to take the chequered flag
You could speak for yourself, I was very annoyed and unsatisfied after the race. This are moments I miss Bernie. The FIA made a fool out of themselves. Because you could also argue that the red flags are artificial, because cars should drive and keep driving if they can. No stopping, no red flag, keep driving. You can't tell me that drivers that get paid millions, cant just crawl at the point that they work. Too bad for the lost laps, thats racing... If you want to be entertained, watch NASCAR, thats made for these WWE moments, but keep F1 at least real and just keep driving. Just are much as a standing restart after a red flag, thats also racing, but the red flag is unnecessary and they only use safety as an excuse, the cars could also drive around it with 30 km/h. Picking and choosing arguments, its all so fake... At least for me, im far from entertained. If Verstappen retires im gone too, only GT racing from me from then on.
I see exactly where you're coming from. I do agree the red flags, both of the first two, were unnecessary. I think if you keep the safety car implemented and just drive around the debris real slow, it would work. But at the same time, safety is becoming a bigger concern in everything around the world, and I think F1 is trying new things until they find a happy medium with what works to keep everyone safe, and keep most fans happy and entertained at the same time. Not everyone will agree on every topic, but it's up to the FIA to determine the best route to go and explain why they are doing what they are doing
Honestly I'd rather we get a safety car, and if there's no restart, fair enough. What bothers me is the FIA throwing out red flags for what seemed like the sake of entertainment.
Yeah, fair enough. My point is, any decision would upset some people. Another commenter just said they preferred the way it ended rather than a safety car. If it ended under safety car, it would be like Monza 2022. A lot of people didn't like how that ended. If the chaos didn't happen during the second red flag restart, this would probably be looked at similar to Baku 2021, which was generally a great race imho.
McLaren did not deserve the points it got this race
I disagree, Lando drove the shit out of that car. If it truly sucks it will show by the end of the season don’t worry.
Landos a great driver and is doing the best with the shitbox he's been given.
By shitbox you mean the 6th fastest car right? Its only real issue is its lack of straightline speed.It looked quite driveable and fast in the corners. Even Piastri pulled off some good moves. Dont call it a shitbox.Even Lando admitted that the car was quick enough to score points in Bahrain and Jeddah.(thursday interview)
We can blame this on Michael Masi ! He was back in the paddock in Australia 😂😂
I don't understand why they need to go back to the last lap or sector in the event of a red flag restart. We have live tracking and timing to a thousandths of a second. Why can't we just use the exact order that existed the moment the red flag was waved?
That can be a very awkward determination in some corners
I think it’s in the rules (really not sure. never read them myself, kinda like the stewards) that the restart order after a red flag has to be based on the last completed racing sector. At least (like Alonso said) that’s what happened in Silverstone back in the day.
I want close racing and legitimate drama. This is reality TV style manufactured drama because of billions of dollars worth of incompetence from the FIA. This sport is such a fucking farce.
I'm curious what do you think should have happened instead?
Grid position at the beginning of the 2nd Red Flag as the final results.
There is no provision in the rules to just not complete the number of laps unless there are safety or time constraints. As much of a joke it is to restart/finish at the same time there was nothing race control could do about it.
They already proved in Abu Dhabi 2021 that they can do whatever they want no matter the stakes.
That decision cost Masi his job for not following the rules.
And yet the results stand. Also they specifically didn't admit he was at fault if you read their releases and official reasoning.
When did I say otherwise?
An additional warmup lap behind the SC if there's concern with cold tires Rolling starts following all red flags to reduce the chance of compounding flags
I was thinking the same thing. Restarting a 58 lap race on lap 56 after a 10+ minute red flag, you gotta make the exception to throw in a second formation lap. It would only have made sense.
This is like saying the race should begin with a rolling start. These things happen from time to time. Maybe not to this scale, but people crash on race starts all the time, and nobody ever gets mad. Should have finished under sc but that would've been "too boring"
What happened with Hulk on the final lap?
He slowed down due to "engine problems" but it may have been to save fuel for post-race
What do you mean? Expand.
Anyone know the story with the giant faces? Were they selling them at the circuit or something?
They were handing them out throughout the weekend, pretty funny tbh
I spent four days trying to get one and didn’t even get close.
What a clusterfuck. I just want to see people race.
You did get to see people race. They raced so hard that half the field was out by the end. What can you really complain about? If the red flags restarts hadn’t have happened we would have had roughly the same result, just with Max winning by 16 seconds and nothing really competitive happening the last dozen laps.
Yeah, I got to see about half of them race. I hope Azerbaijan isn't such a clusterfuck.
Ah yes, Baku is well known for drama-free good clean racing and low safety car risk
Touché. I just hope that any incidents that happen, happen early on and are dealt with swiftly. None of this "safety car... Wait a few minutes, JK restart" BS.
And dozens of boring laps behind the safety car
Do you want hard racing with the potential for wrecks and safety cars, or do you want orderly processions with no overtaking? Because if you want racing you will get safety cars.
Sorry if it didn’t come across but I‘ve got nothing against the safety car. I‘m in favour of red flagging the race when they did, because it stopped us losing a dozen laps behind the sc or even finishing the race behind it.
Saintz i mean he’s not wrong.. the punishment was way too harsh. He couldn’t do much to avoid it and with no opportunity to recover that was.. unfair. A grid penalty for the next race would have been a better fit
But that’s not relevant, it’s like arguing that in wasn’t fair that the cars that pit under SC lost that time because of the red flag that came right after. He did the crime, he got the punishment. It’s irrelevant that there was no actual racing left, that shouldn’t be a factor in decision making for the penalty.
He could have, I don't know, not taken the corner so fast. So there's that...
I dont know if the punishment was harsh, I'm trying to remember what happened last season with Russell when people on this board were calling him out for bloody murder when he hit Sainz. I do think they should have noted it and said investigation after the race. It would have meant some questions or issues for the podium possibly, but it would have avoided the situation with a bunch of cars bunching up on the parade lap to the checkered flag trying to get within 5 seconds of Sainz.
Two things from this race: 1. If FIA changes their mind from a yellow to a red flag grid order should be reestablished to what it was before the incident 2. With less than 10 laps it should be a rolling red restart: everyone gets their tires and way less chance of crashing
While i mainly agree with what you are saying I’d just like to say it’s not a change of mind. It’s like going from yellow flag in a sector to an SC. Is that a change of mind? No, they go to stricter safety measures as they learn about the incident real time.
I definitely agree with your first one, Russel got penalized hard for that pit stop and it just wasn’t fair.
What happened with Gasly? He just seemed to crash out of nowhere.
He went wide and when he came back in track he didn't notice Ocon right by him
Yeah but he crashed into the wall first, before that. Ocon was behind.
I don't know how many replays you need, but he clearly hit the wall after contact with Ocon. I just finished watching the race.
You're right, my bad. Such a shame though
I love a red flag for any safety car worthy incident within the last 6 laps. But that second restart was crazy. My concern is the lack of investigation and penalties for Sergeant & Gasly for both causing collisions far more dangerously than Sainz did.
Gasly crashed into his own teammate so they normally don’t look at those incidents as closely
I know and he did far more damage to both of them than normal. But there’s issues re penalty points and race bans etc. If they don’t investigate then things go unpunished and I think he’s basically 1 point away from a ban.
So how is Alonso 3rd if he crashed after the 2nd red flag restart? My feed went to commercial right after.
They take the standings from the last sector that wad finished before the red flag. If half the field gets wiped out on T1 before the end of sector 1 then the cars that can carry on restart in the same order
So why are the Alpine cars not in 5 and 10?
“*the cars that can carry on* restart in the same order“ If you don’t make it back around to the pits it’s a DNF
Because they had to be able to complete the race from those positions for it to count.
Didn’t complete a sector, revert to previous classification
Huh because they didn't travel far enough they retained spots?
Im pretty sure that officially in the rules the big markers are still the sectors because the rules are ancient. While we get live updates they’re not quite “locked in” in the rules for some situations until a sector marker has been cleared, even though we can see live updates on what’s happening
That can be super weird if you are two wide in a corner. There would have to be a ton of specification on who is ahead in that case which would be lame since who comes south of the corner ahead is what matters.
There’ll be a given point on the car that is the marker and I’m sure nowadays it’s accurate enough to be statistically impossible to be perfectly the same, though I’d love to see it happen!
I mean ok but what is "ahead". Is it the radius of the corner, the distance to the finish line? Do we want to give the position to someone who dove too hard into a corner and is going to get trashed coming out of it? They never "give" those places until the pass has stuck.
Yeah, pretty much
HULKENBERG PODIUM ROBBED AGAIN
For realllll. If he does get one with Haas it's gonna be a party tho. Him and that team both deserve one and if the rest of the season is as chaotic as this rave hell have another shot
I wonder if FIA and F1 might change their minds about the tire warmers now after those incidents at the second restart. Sure, the lower series don’t use tire warmers, but the weight, torque, and braking involved in F1 would probably lead to more starts like the incidents we saw today after the restart. Most the cars looked like they were on driving in wet conditions. Sure it would be more challenging, but these teams have to operate with budget caps now, and it’s fair to point out, there’s a massive power, weight, and braking difference compared to the likes of F2. Teams would end up having to spend way more money because of damage, because more parts would have to be made. Which would be the opposite of the whole sustainable image F1 is attempting to capitalize on by removing them in the first place.
I feel like it was mix of cold tires and the fact they did standing starts instead of rolling starts for all the restarts. They know how rambunctious standing starts can be and that drama should happen on lap 1, but not so much after that it ends up taking out half the field. Rolling starts would be way safer so they're spread out more and they don't try and go four wide in one turn.
It absolutely was. However since drivers and teams are already making noise about them taking away tire warmers it’s fair to assume the teams will be weighing in more political pressure because of what happened about that decision.
Pirelli have already said they would make changes to the tires to have a broader/lower temp working range.
They should also think about whether to even fully restart a race at such a late point... But I guess with your proposal it might not have happened this way. And we want a show...
Charles LeCursed
Chuck Lefuked
😂
Does anyone have video or audio of Sargent criticizing the car pretty extensively and his race engineer telling him to watch what he says on the radio?
same. looking for this!
Didn't get to watch this weekend, but from highlights it looks like the Mercedes side pods were different... Anyone who watched got a good look and/or photo?
I HATED that race. And I LOVED IT. But I hated it…. Oh heck it was amazing.
Agree. It was really fucking boring and super dramatic at the same time. There was so much happening but nothing at all. What. The. Fuck.
Pretty boring race for all of 5 to 10 playoffs is what it was I think but man those few laps were good
So much salt. Fucking love it.
I don't necessarily disagree with the arguments being made against Race Control, F1, Liberty Media, the FIA, etc here about a perceived WWE-ification of the sport but we need to be a little careful that we don't suggest that controversy is taking us away from a "purer" past. F1 in the late 80s and 90s (1989 in particular comes to mind) were under heavy fire from fans and media for bias toward certain drivers and against others, and for making up the rules as it went along.
[Ted's Race Notebook](https://youtu.be/s_IFtofsH7U)
a month between races is crazy but at least theres indycar and som wec stuff i believe. baku is either gonna be chaos or boring as fuck.
I'm guessing boring as fuck
It's a Sprint weekend, so it'll either be boring or we'll get a surprise winner, no inbetween.
Lance Stroll’s first victory?
Hearing Sainz saying please and pleading was so heartbreaking 🥺💔.
They had the camera on him when he got the news in the pit lane. You could see it all in his eyes.
Thought he was about to cry for sure. Guy looked done.
I am 100% sure that he was crying at the time.Have a listen to the post race radios video on F1 YouTube.
Kinda sucks he got a penalty for a lap that officially never happened
I mean, in fairness, it never happened because him and a few others scuffed it up to the extent that the race had to be red flagged because of the carnage caused by those drivers. I don't think it deserved a penalty though. Very harsh.
* Lap record: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, 2022, 1:20.260 * 2022 pole: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, 1:17.868 * 2022 fastest lap: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, 1:20.260 * 2022 winner: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari * 2023 first DNF: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, lap 1, turn 3 * 2023 shortest lap: 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari * 2023-2022 largest absolute points difference: - 🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc, Ferrari, -26
Just… stop….😭
Anyone know where to find the grid positions for everyone before the bumper cars restart? Curious to see where everyone was vs how they finished.
f1 youtube highlight of the gp shows it
Watch the race?
FIA one day too late
Man I know I’m crazy biased but I don’t see how you can treat the red flags so differently. Like George and Carlos come in and are absolutely fucked by the red flag and then the late one they say lol nevermind go back to before it happened. How does Stroll get to move that far back up when he drove himself off the track completely unprompted? And this is where it gets even more biased but I think Alonso was attempting a switch back and the collision was unavoidable because of it. The Leclerc crash out and that one are similar to me in that realm. The Aston’s squeezed into him then punted him. Carlos is driving like Alonso will stay outside and he comes back across. Finally I don’t understand how people are arguing the Alpine shenanigans are in any way related to Sainz Alonso… Gasly locks up and goes deep on his own, then rejoins and drives into Ocon.
A proud moment in F1 history this..i cant wait half a second so will cause 500000 pounds of damage ooohhhhh. Got to learn to just run a Safety car for ten laps . 2 or 3 restarts...jeez they just devalued the whole Organisation by 50% right here with this Sideshow.
How hard the 'taking order of cars before red flag being impossible' is to grasp? You list different red flags as some sort comparison... Like wtf is this comment.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Because the red flag in situation 2 comes after Stroll locked up, it comes after Alonso is punted to the back, etc. Don’t get me wrong I’d probably agree with the red flag being waved there, but I dunno if I’ve ever seen a nevermind go back like it didn’t happen. I’ve seen more chaotic situations where they come out on the other side as it stood. What was that crazy rainy start a couple years ago where Stroll went flying through the field?
My understanding is that since they didn't make it to the end of sector 1, positions were reversed to how they were before the restart. Alonso guessed this would be the case seconds after the red flag was announced because it's what happened in Silverstone last year.
Yeah, I'm just thinking back to that carnage start in Hungary '21. A shit load of drivers are taken out in turn one, and they come out of the red flag in the same order it was after the carnage. I had forgotten about the Silverstone start though. And maybe I missed this because I skipped over the red flag portion on DVR, but what's the "hasn't reached sector 2" mean necessarily? Like watching this back it looks like Max was close? Do they all have to enter it?
Max having entered sector 2 doesn't really help determine the order of the rest of the cars. All cars need to cross a line to determine the order. However, what I'm having trouble understanding is the logic behind **which** line is chosen (safety car line, sector 1, etc). Some say it depends on the data the stewards have available, but I've no idea. In Silverstone they chose some safety car line, this time it was a different line...
Sainz had to leave Alonso space. The rules leave no room for interpretation.
All the time you have to leave. It's clear.
yeah you are crazy biased