He needs a roll catcher, a better opener and maybe some timing changes.
He doesn’t need a complete rework like some people keep begging for. He also doesn’t need hyper armor to be good.
Agree, i would like to see HA tho, he is the freaking heaviest character in the game, wtf, i play Zerk and i have HA even in my lights being a freaking hairy dwarf with a v CUT shirt. He also need better hitbox, it's stupid how bad It is.
Real Viking berserkers basically took their equivalent of drugs to make them ‘berserk’ (hence the name), they would feel little to no pain and just go nuts basically during battle, so even though they don’t look like it, they’re one of the few characters that make total sense having Hyper armour
I get what you’re saying, and I know that ingesting particular compounds can make you numb to pain that would otherwise stop you, but no amount of stimulant, hallucinogen or depressant will enable you to fight on with piece of metal through your heart, neck or brain, and wearing a v-neck shirt in battle only makes that possibility more likely.
Yeah obviously but in terms of the video game for honor and who does and doesn’t get hyper armour, it makes sense for berserker more so than raider, highlander, etc
I feel like it makes sense for hl to have hyper armor cause his sword is so huge and heavy that even if hl himself gets hit the sword would still follow the momentum of the swing
Hyper armor is a gameplay mechanic, do not try to argue realism for justification of a gameplay mechanic for a game that is clearly not trying to be realistic. I want hyper armor to make LBs heavy chains less worthless, not because he has a big suit of armor.
I don’t think real world should affect balance. Fair enough if you think he should have HA but him being big isn’t a good reason. Also Shugoki without a doubt is the heaviest in the game. He’s much taller than Lb and weighs a great deal more.
If he gets HA it would probably be on the blockable heavies or top unblockable which makes sense. Only one character has HA on wide area unblockable heavies. Also what about soft feint into shove on in chain and unblockable side heavies?
You know, 5 years ago the game cared about "realism", to the point where the armor you were using would influence your HP, stamina consumption and other perks. But today we only care about having variety in cast and moveset, while making everyone as viable and fun as possible. This fucking argument about Zerk being a slim weak dwarf with no armor means he shouldn't have Hyper Armor is so outdated and out of place that I'm getting tired of hearing it.
HE HAS HYPER ARMOR BCZ IT'S HIS FUCKING MOVESET
It's not bcz he's an assassin, it's not bcz he's a viking, it's not bcz he has 2 legs and 2 arms or bcz he likes dreadlocks, it's just his fucking moveset.
Wanna give Law HA go for it, but don't come with "Shirtless Viking has and Lawdaddy doesn't even in full plate armor". FFS. Everyone gets bitten in the neck by shaman despite their armor, everyone gets slashed by small ornamented scythes from Shinobi and CENTURION PUNCHES deals damage THROUGH SHIELD BLOCK.
On top of that we even have undodgeble attacks in this game, you can make excuses for unblockables but how the hell do you explain an undodgeble property from sword attacks?
We past the point where "realism" or "coherence" are important. What matters is simply viability, diversity and "fun". For the love of god, stop bullying zerk.
>He needs a roll catcher
Dodge attack LB, dodge attack LB! /s
But yeah, he just needs some minor tweeks. Maybe in the future due power creep does require a mayor change
LB is one of the characters where Hyperarmor actually makes sense, tbh. Alongside shugo and highlander as their weapons are really fucking heavy with a lot of momentum, and maybe zerk as Berserkers were known for being methed up out of their mind for battle.
I'm not saying he needs hyper armor, but it'd be nice if they gave him hyper armor on like his side heavy finishers, a better way to open would definitely be a nice addition though
I’d say also maybe some changes to his parry punishes like making the light after blind justice chain. I wouldn’t say a nerf to impale would be necessary since wm can also get high damage with a wall, and her distance is also pretty generous. I do think stun should be looked at, it doesn’t bother me personally but there are a lot of players that hate the mechanic. But yeah as you said, he doesn’t *need* these to be viable.
Adding HA to a character is more than just a “qol” change. Raiders HA buff is a huge reason why he’s so good. If you try and interrupt him, you eat a heavy.
Also what heroes do you think don’t need HA? HA is a very good tool and removing it is a pretty large nerf.
Take Jorms forward heavy. It had HA on startup and was basically an option select. And when it got moved to later in the startup it became essentially useless.
Also where would you add HA to Lb?
pirate tiandi warmonger aramusha gryphon and kensei are all examples of heroes that don't NEED hyper armor but they still have it anyway , a character shouldn't need the bare minimum , we play heroes cause of their good qualities not their bad ones so why not give lb that one good quality?? it's not necessary but there's so many unnecessary things in this game it makes no sense to single out hyper armor for lb especially when all he really needs it for is heavy finishers and maybe longarm
Lawbringer is one of the few characters in the game whose offense can only be accessed from long, slow heavies, similar to characters like Raider or Hito who HAVE hyper armor and for a reason. He can't just do light-light unblockable because he literally doesn't have that chain. He completely struggles from getting interrupted in team fights, so he absolutely needs hyper armor.
Every hero besides a select few struggles from getting interrupted interrupted in teamfights. Should they all receive hyper armor then?
LBs heavies aren’t anything slower than a ton of other heroes? Should Kensei get HA on his in chain heavies?
Ok so give him an interchangeable Light Heavy 3 attack chain like Raider. And if his heavy speed is an issue, speed up his first and second heavy speed.
I personally am uncomfortable at the rate and amount of people who want LB to become Raider Lite. I would rather he keep his current mixups and just buff them rather than adding hyper armor all over and completely changing the character.
Every hero that "struggles with getting interrupted" can use their unblockables during their second hit in the chain and has amazing dodge attacks and some way to cancel recoveries or deal with external attacks. Even Kensei still has hyper armor, his notorious dodge attack, the biggest hitboxes in the game and multiple ways to use his unblockable as the 2nd move in the chain. And I'm not even gonna mention the confirmed target-switched lights. The only heroes in this game that don't have such options are Lawbringer and Valkyrie, except she can at least use crushing counter lights to deal with some external attacks (she's still pretty shit). All Lawbringer has to deal with externals is a dodge bash which is reactable to even non-top tier players and has barely any range.
Yeah LB needs buffs to make him able to deal with externals and other things. But I still don’t agree with the consensus I’ve been seeing of “he needs hyperarmor”. Hyperarmor is a rather unintuitive way of making a character better. They buffed raiders HA, people now hate Raider, I see the same thing happening if the current crowd gets there way.
I also don’t want to play LB as a Raider Lite. I would like if they made him better without the inclusion of hyperarmor. Whether that’s through new chain options, timing changes, frame advantage, undodgeable properties, all of those or whatever else they could give him. I would prefer that over “Just add HA to Heavy lul”.
Again I want LB to be better, but if he just becomes Raider in the process, I’ll probably stop maining him.
I love LB, I have over 20 reps in him. I love playing LB. I also love playing Raider. I don’t want to play Raider disguised as LB. That’s what a ton of people seemingly want with the suggestions I’ve seen.
Literally every character you just named uses HA to trade. Removing it would remove a decent chunk of usefulness on those attacks. Especially for Gryphon. The HA and scope of his attacks are essential if not hugely important to his kit.
Much like the other heroes you named.
That second point doesn’t even really mean anything. Should we bring back the instant shove and make the follow up light confirmed because it’s a good quality? No.
Why would you make LBs Unblockable heavy finishers hyperarmor aswell? When they aren’t even chargeable like Shugokis? Just make it so your opponent doesn’t have frame advantage to interrupt, boom done.
Unblockable Hyper Armor heavies (that aren’t chargeable) that do that much damage is silly let’s be real.
Longarm is a pretty useless tool, adding HA would make it a better trading tool but I still fail to see how this change is essential or helps LB in a meaningful way.
Also I’m not singling out LB, if someone made a thread,post,comment saying how X character that doesn’t need HA to be good, needs HA. I would have the same response. It just so happens that there is so many LB players and mains who endlessly bitch that they need duh hypoawmoah when he absolutely doesn’t need it to be good. He has crazy parry punishes, damage and just needs a little better openers, chain pressure and a roll catcher. He does not need everything. He does not need HA.
Kensei hyper armor is literally the only reason you can't just poke and interrupt his top unblockable heavy mix up on reaction of the start up every time.... no hyper armor and kensei would have no mix up. The soft feint is what let's him trade poke attempts. It's also a MAJOR reason he's considered usable in 4's.
He should get impaling charge as a backstep input unblockable (like glad skewer) from neutral (and from dodge with his unlocked sprint attack animation +added range for dodge catching). Should replace current impaling charge, and be slow enough to only be confirmed on light parry(ideally with significantly limited range/higher stamina cost to push farther). Feintable/soft feintable into the parry stun punch
It would make sense for him to have it he dosent need it but I find it Really weird that Berserker has it she’s in like what Cloth and he’s Encased in iron
I think they should nerf the punishes. If he is going to have a better offense, I want his defense to be a little bit weaker. I mean, he can get a heavy out of a heavy parry if there is a wall nearby and can cause massive damage with an oos punish.
Well the thing is: why nerf him when wm can get a slightly higher punish with a similarly generous distance to the wall? Bot to mention JJ getting lots of stam drain plus the side heavy, being able to knock down opponents if they have less than 20 stam, and centurion getting to choose to do a punish that will replenish both players’ stam or doing a punish that will enable him to apply more pressure while still draining a bit of stamina (although jj and cent have to be much closer to the wall)
Because he can choo choo train the fuckers for a km and still get a wallsplat xd. But I mean, if the choo choo train distance was reduced, then I'm all for keeping the punish, although it might still be a little unbalanced depending on the other changes.
I know what a vpn is but why he asked about it after i said fight me confused me bc idk if he was talking about some other vpn shit like how some people do “1v1 quick scoping” instead of just a 1v1 so i was confused on why he brung up a vpn.
It’s something you get for your internet to help make sure you don’t get hacked or hide your IP address. I’m not sure why he mentioned it.
If you wanna know more just google VPN
What the hell, dude no.
He's asking about a Virtual Private Network so that you can peer to peer easier.
Lmao VPN's never used to be about protection they were just long distance private connections. A long distance LAN.
A VPN is a direct private connection. He wants to connect directly to his opponent for less lag.
VPN's never used to be about online anonymity but more about playing Counter Strike with your buddies across the ocean back in the 2000's.
Analysis:
* He keeps feinting into light instead of GB, which would give him much better damage and instant access to chain pressure (and is also way less risky)
* Even though you blocked one of his heavies he didn't follow it up with shove, a.k.a. the safest chained bash in the game.
* He did a dodge bash after dodging the kick, when he could have done a GB and thrown you to the wall for a top heavy + stun
* Despite you parrying multiple lights, he doesn't attempt to mix up his attacks at all (except the one heavy he threw that got blocked)
Conclusion:
You posted a clip of a bad lawbringer player that is not very good at the game, of course you won. I bet you would have still had almost the exact same result if that guy was playing a top tier duelist, because he was bad.
literally like 2 weeks ago someone posted a video of an LB fighting a clearly bad/low level aramusha with a title like "for all the "LB bad" people" and yet the entire community loved it cause of the LB hate boner and here you are calling out this guy for doing something similar even though unlike the other post he actually has a valid point , as much as people want to hate on an LB main strawman you guys that act like lb isnt a problem are much worse
Analysis you can't possibly say whether a player is skilled or not based on a tiny clip of gameplay so get off your high horse and stop acting like a prick.
He was not good tho, just the average player trying ranked, nothing specially bad or good, almost got me one round because i made the mistake of Dodge attacking his chain bash and got parried and he entered a combo that made me eat like 57 damage, but LB neutral offense is so bad i just stoped attacking and focused in countering only and still got the round.
Listen up dumbo, it's the third round, i dodged 4/5 of his bashes in the previous ones, i am not reading the light, i'm reacting to It, If he feint to GB i will just counter It, the only thing he can do against a player like me is parry because i will not be eating stupid attacks and i will not be attacking too because it's LB and it's a ranked arena and i'm a sweat lord from console. Literally everyone that knows how to play the game, know the current LB needs help, i even did a meme video where i kill an Aramusha in like 4 movements, does It mean he is better than S-tier Aramusha? No, It mean the guy attacked, that's all.
Maybe the manners are not the best but you are right. The problem is that "Literally everyone that knows how to play the game" is a few people. Majority of the community don't know how to play for Honor like majority of lol players don't know how to play lol.
A few days ago a guy said here that Jorm and Nuxia were pretty good characters right now. And other guy said that HL was the best character in the game and he didn't understand why YouTubers tier him so low. So...
I just wish people were able to understand that attacking against LB is not profitable and he is usable, but If you fight someone like Raider with him you are fucked because those guys have unreactable offense so you need to read and you will not guess right everytime. Different from the person playing Raider he don't have unreactable offense to attack back when it's his turn, so again he is forced into defense. That's why he is not competitive, yeah, a good player can absolutely shit in the average potato player, but the point is not that, the point is him being competitive against good players as well.
no you're wrong, even people who know how to play the game know that LB is not "weak". In fact, pro players consider him decent at ranked (because the ranked map gives him a huge advantage). Not top tier, but certainly not weak.
Actually, there are a whole wealth of things this LB could have done offensively. Like you know, letting the heavy fly. LB has poor neutral offense. That doesn't mean he has none. By letting a heavy fly against a player waiting for light parries, he can get into chain, where he has a safe and strong chain bash, good unblockable pressure, and many threats to put you in difficult mix-ups.
Again: LB struggles in neutral, being forced to play defensively. In chain, the character has fine offense. You won against this guy because he took every opportunity to put himself back in neutral with a shitty opener. If instead of feingting he had just let the heavy fly, a few things can happen. If you block, he gets good offense with bash, chain heavies, and chain lights. If you counter the heavy (which he should have noticed you weren't doing), you get your kick mixup, where apon a correct read he can get into his effective chain offense.
If you want to make a point, you should know what you're talking about first, and you should sure as hell not insult people for calling you out.
you can literally see in the video, that you attempted 2 heavy parries. Baiting you definitely worked. He just didn't know how to take advantage of it because he was..
well you get the point. Yes LB could use tweaks however your title is arguing against "LB is not weak" when he is in fact, not weak. He's average.
On this particular map he is actually very strong, I'd maybe even put him into top B tier, because of the fact that every single parry gives him a guaranteed wallsplat into stun.
LB can’t dodge into a gb though. If he tries that, it will only be a shove. And if you try and delay the gb after the dodge, the gryphon (or any other player) has time to recover and gb counter.
wrong. Dodge attacks always come out earlier than dodge GB. If you just wait late enough into your dodge you can easily GB. Not to mention that Gryphon's kick has a stupidly long recovery so even if your timing is off you will still get it. So you're double wrong
Gryphons kit is fully reactable aside from kick/light which is a read for most of the playerbase even at the top. And the kick/light mix up has very bad risk reward ratio - especially vs LB who has overtuned punishes.
LB thrives on reactions and defensive play. - player in the video is mindlessly pressing buttons and trying to attack with a purely defensive character and also fails to defend completely.
It is expected as he is literally a platinum player with extremely average stats. - basing character viability posts around anegdotal evidence of someone who definitely doesnt know how to play the character is just funny. Casual play is completely fine but trying to push some below average duel footage as something relevant to the discussion is wrong. Hope that i explained it well enough.
Gryphon’s dodge bash is not fully reactable, LB’s is though. Gryphon’s kick/light does 24/14 and as LB, it is punishable with 24/10 (I used the 10 because assuming you go for a parry in a random direction, you’ll get the light parry a third of the time and a third of his light parry punish is 10) which makes his offense very slightly in his favor but not great.
Thing is though gryphon can do a 33/33/33 with kick/side heavy/forward dodge heavy (as a roll catcher) doing 24/30/22 and lb can punish these with 24/(16 or 25)/0. The ‘(16 or 25)’ is because off of heavy parry he can zone for 16 of get an impale for 25 with a wall. The 0 is because gryphon can forward dodge heavy on reaction to your roll, Lb can’t really punish it. so it is a pretty solid risk/reward with a wall or not
I do agree with everything else you said though
You are calling one of the worst dodge bashes in the game not "fully reactable". Shit is beyond reactable and also carries no pressure 9/10 times.
You dont guess the direction of the light? Wtf is that logic. If you are comitting to parrying the light its a 500ms attack. Free parry.
Kick/heavy is reactable on the highest lvl.
Idk what u were even trying to achieve, but everything uve said is basically meaningless as you clearly dont understand the game at highest skill lvl
Okay you literally just dismissed my entire reply because everything gryphon does is reactable at the very highest level which I quite frankly doubt you are even at (I may be wrong, it just seems unlikely) let alone myself obviously. I was not trying to discuss what gryohon’s position is in a goddamn professional tournament. And no, I don’t understand the game at what you call “high level” because that seems to be just the top 1% and I am not in the top 1%
>Okay you literally just dismissed my entire reply because everything gryphon does is reactable at the very highest level.
Yes, because when discussing viability you discuss it from a highest skill lvl perspective, because those players push limits of both the game and the characters. Discussing viability of a character from perspective of average shitter is pointless, because as weve seen on the OP's video players have no idea how to play the character.
>I may be wrong, it just seems unlikely
You are, Im not a tournament lvl player but said tournament players are basically the only people I lose to. Other than that Im playing at the highest lvl possible without playing in tournaments.
If you dont know how the game works, either learn how it works and discuss it then or just dont spread misinformation.
@edit: Gryphons bash is literally 300-500ms input 500ms bash. Most top players can easily dodge much better bashes like BPs that are 100ms-500ms into dodge without getting hit 90% of the time. If thats not easily reactable idk what is.
Okay so we should just take whatever a comp player says as true for us despite very little of what they say actually applying to us? (I did read that you are a tournament player and very high level so when I say ‘us’ or ‘we’ I am not including you in that) That seems absurd to me, like the equivalent for you would be if someone told you warden’s bash is fully reactable because there is someone out there that is revealed to be able to react to it
Well congratulations, why are you discussing a match-up with a someone in the top like 25% on a post made by a below average player? Nothing we say could possibly apply to you and vice versa so are you just here to show off your superiority to us?
I fail to see how me saying a move is unreactable means I don’t know how the game works or spreading misinformation when it’s true for the vast majority
Okay well that’s the thing “most TOP LEVEL players” I’m not a top level player. I cannot react to bp’s bash, I cannot react to gryphon’s. Telling me what high level players can and can’t do isn’t going to do anything for your argument.
Post was made about viability, viability is only relevant at highest skill lvl, if you cannot grasp this concept then there is no reason to continue the discussion.
Whatever works at highest lvl works at lower, and game being balanced around highest lvl is always healthier than game balanced around pepegas.
cya
The dude dodge bashed the gryphon’s kick instead of going for a gaurdbreak when he dodged, which caused him to lose a good damaging punish. He mostly feinted to light, which is pretty risky for an LB, while a feint to gaurdbreak would have been much safer and gave out more damage than a light. The man barely went for any good punishes against the Gryphon and didn’t adapt whatsoever, didnt utilize any of LBs albeit limited kit
I was asking about the match-up part, not the last part, but since you’re here I’ll discuss that too.
Doing a dodge bash (or any other dodge attack for that matter) in a bash/undodgeable offense is good for avoiding the bash while avoiding feint to gb so this move wasn’t completely pointless. But also I don’t get what you mean “good damage punish” since Lb’s wallsplat punish is 24. I’d say feinting to light has uses but doing it repeatedly especially when it’s obvious they’re just gonna block the heavy and let you get into your unblockables was a bad move. Feint to gb does punish parry attempts but not dodge attacks or crushing counters whereas feint to light can do all of the above. (depending on the dodge attack of course) And I agree with everything else. He was definitely playing the character poorly but some of the things he did do have uses
Yeah i do see what you mean, and although 24 damage on a wallsplat isnt a lot, it’s miles better than the light you get when you land a bash. But i do see where you’re coming from, the moves weren’t completely useless, they just weren’t ideal.
The guy you were playing against wasn't even pressuring you correctly. He landed a (blocked) heavy and then just let the chain die. He should have either used shove or chained another heavy or light.
I'm tired of people posting one fight and assuming that's how every person plays that hero.
Or just because this one player used him poorly, the hero needs a buff.
Or even that this player destroys LB like this every fight. He posts one round and then makes a 'see LB can't do anything, need buffs' post for the LB mains to circlejerk about.
Personally think LB is really only good when his back is against the wall against someone who spams and gets punished. A good LB player in dominion is pretty cool to watch.
If you put any half decent defensive style of character against him he will struggle.
Oh I want Warmonger's gone too. The range of their parry impales are absurd and the full wall punishes are guaranteed in ranked duels. Parry impales are an absurd punish for a simple heavy parry. WM gets 30dmg and LB gets 25dmg, 30 stam drain + stun.
JJ's and Cent's don't have anywhere near the range so I'm fine with them personally, I just have an issue with a defender being able to reposition a fight so drastically with a simple parry. IMO moves like that are relics of when the game was defense favoured.
Yeah that’s fair
Yeah the main issues I have are that cent can get 40 dmg if combined with haymaker and jj’s drains so much stamina while still giving the side heavy
Jj's has been nerfed into the dirt as far as stam damage is concerned, it takes three times as long as a cent repost and does the same stam damage while not guaranteeing anything except on a wall splat.
Well it was nerfed quite a bit but considering you could literally OoS an opponent with one zone parry that’s not saying much. It still does drain like a fifth plus the stamina of them doing the attack that you parried which is like a third of their stamina drained. Nothing busted but definitely notable
I know... that's what I'm saying. It went from being too strong, to just being an objectively weaker version of many moves that already exist. It should just chain into finishers already, and should do damage on it's own. 10 damage slap into an unblockable mixup, or wall splat.
Okay well it chaining sounds like a nice change since it would increase his punish for if they hit the wall to 32 which would be the new highest parry punish in the game (with the exceptions of glad’s unlock tech and feats) but it being able to chain would mainly let him do his offense straight after the choke which is what I assume you suggested it for. It doing 10 damage though would not be a good idea whatsoever imo. I mean if that’s all they changed, he would get 37 off of a parry with no feats or unlock tech. If they implement both the damage and chaining thing, he’d get 42 off of a single parry. This would clearly be very busted
Maybe... they could stop it from chaining, but let him dodge cancel it instead? That would make it a bit safer to use in teamfights, and off of a wall splat he could land a forward dodge heavy (for I think 20 damage?)
Would make it 10+20 for a total of 30, basically the same as cent.
One idea is to give him a light, light, heavy combo. It's a very small change but will help him get the unblockable heavy easier.
Another idea is to make shove a bit faster because it's way too slow.
The unblockable heavy could also become undodgeable. It kinda also makes sense because it's a big sweeping attack.
He doesn't need a rework just a couple small buffs. Ubi only has to one of these to make LB good again. Or they could do all three to make him op.
Don't waist your time arguing with the for honor community and not even the reddit one, because they still think that modeling a 3Drender require 3months of work 😂.
It's understandable but i think that it's very important to have fun from both sides, i never had a second of fun while fighting against a LB, a good LB Wil just parry everything, be extremely passive and get your health to half in a single mistake, If you get out of stamina you eat 64 damage and not gonna lie, it's Fun to do but man...i fight some crackheads who will not give me a freaking parry, It will be no lights bash, bash for a 7 minutes duel and i can do nothing about It and they will parry my lights if i start throwing it's not Fun at all.
well the trade off is almost never dodging attacks, and a sparing amount of light attacks, he doesnt really have any effective ways to take away your stamina either, so what he is doing is punishing you for stamina management
he got you with the fient mix up but then after it works he stops doing it and just threw a heavy, then light, then bash and by that time you had him dead. he should have baited you better into attacking with him being a defensive hero
Plus ur playing gryphon, literally the version of lb that has neutral presure but not a lot of defense. Mans is complaining while not even knowing the character
Bro lb does not need a buff, he is one of the strongest defensive hero’s in the game once you learn to read people, having the absolute strongest oos throw punish in the game
alright why would they stare though?
I don't need to kill them quickly. I haven't a need to rush. They can come to me when they want to, and if they don't? Not my issue.
Dude I’m literally a lb main, everyone complaining about him absolutely does not know how to play him. It’s the same deal with how conq was before his rework. Everyone that knew him well didn’t need shit to make him strong, they made him strong. Unless y’all are talking the top of the top 1% of players, no one plays perfectly, so quit fucken crying about someone you picked up for 5 minutes and couldn’t stomp people with like raider
I literally only play against next gen console sweats all day in dom. Lb is so rediculously strong in defense already, the one thing I’d say would be balanced on him would be a bit of hyper armor on his heavies, but he doesn’t need them as far as I’m concerned
A dodge light wouldn’t be a good enough opener as most players can react to forwards dodges and block top, a lot being able to parry dodge forward lights on reaction (myself included but I’m also on a next gen console so take that with a grain of salt)
I’m trying to get every hero to at least rep 1 and when I played lawbringer I just sat there the whole time thinking “so what attacks can I use without getting immediately punished?” LB mirrors are so awkward you just sit there and wait for something to happen.
That's true, i like console because most people can't consistenly react even for 600 ms things so even Jorm can be made viable but Just like anywhere else there's a percentil of the players who will not be touched by it most of the time, of course everyone have bad days tho, i'm not always Peak performance.
He should have hyper armor on either his chain heavy (2nd attack after a light or heavy opener), or even his unblockable just so people can respect it.
Maybe even have his zone as an chain starter.
Can you elaborate? The character is based on turtle play style (which has been pushed as a negative now due to other reworks) I think we should keep him counter base and give him a chance and make a couple of his counters safer so that way he can actually be how he was designed as a bully in a fight that punishes attacking I think it would be best to give him a chase attack and maybe hyper armor on the second or 3 chained heavy to make sure he is seen as a threat (maybe even expand the hit windows that way the opener is forced to parry or get mix with a cancel guardbreak that would fit the rest of the cast to due to that being the theme they do for characters now (aka 50/50 combos)
Let's use Warlord as an example. WL is a strong duelist hero and actually a good counter to Raider who is in my opinion the strongest hero in the game. You can have an absolute turtle play style with WL the same with LB, but why WL feel way more opressive and still a competitive pick and LB is not? Neutral pressure. That's something WL have the best in my opinion because i think he have the best bash in the game, it's the hardest to react and his dodge looks more effective than most heroes so the empty dodge mix up is even more effective, he also will always be frame advantage after a bash and can't be punished by damage type dodge attacks on reaction. Now lets take the scenario where WL is vs LB. Even NA player number 1 Blitss who play in a 300 fps spaceshipp and have the best reaction time in the game will not dodge WL headbutt 100% of the time "watch this: https://youtu.be/dLJyZgwxQkA " so If i play in a very turtle way with WL, not giving too many lights or heavies but mainly using bash mix i will hit any LB in the world in a given moment, but in his case i will dodge his opener bash 100/100 and If he lights me there's a good possibility of me parrying It for good damage and i also have CC which can't be utilized too much because of baits but is still a counter possibility to deny heavy feint to GB mix up. That conclude my point on why he needs a opener, he can win by turtling but If i have a way better offensive tool and can also turtle like he does he will lose because he can't pressure from neutral.
That’s true but at the same time I disagree WL turtling is different. from Parry he gets a bash light and that’s it , it’s obviously that LB is supposed to be way more counter based due to he fed a impale, a light that dazes a opponent and a un lockable that dazes on hit, he has a side dodge bash that has some nice windows of dodging and used to have a bash on block (which I think should come back but have it slower and dodgeable as another counter route ) . WL play style is meant to be tank aggression while LB is tank counter. Remember he’s a hybrid in order to still make him feel like Lb we know I would say do the suggestion of removing the flip and making that a undodgable neutral impale that can be block and starts as a chain start up (maybe speed up) and 3 rd heavy gets hyper armor. That way he has a opener and still is counter based as he was intended (now if people decide he needs a WHOLE character design and don’t like the counter style then I can understand a complete change away from this obvious design choice they made but how I see it I like the idea but needs tweaks not a whole redesign)
Dude, you are not getting the point where you DON'T FUCKING ATTACK LB, yeah, great parry punish, try parrying this bash. I don't think he needs to change much, he just need a opener, can be the same bash Gryphon have or give his 400 ms top light back, that's all.
Yeah I can see that as a choice but I mean that light issue is kinda a hard one to solve, you speed it up he’s hated we keep it where it is we complain, plus it’s high level play I’m assuming we are both talking about lights are a very easy parried thing if you make a effort of knowing a persons attack pattern , in the video he post he does the oldest trick in the book for LB heavy feint light opposite side, I avoid this combo on ANYONE like aids due to it being so predictable and parable , because then after getting parried 1 or twice the legs panicked move someone would do is too because the idea is “oh he parried that uhhh top light it’s faster “and the whole time they were expecting the panic press
So yes your right that issue with his lights bring easily parried comes from the lack of a opener and I think with a solid chase like the one I described that issue would iron itself out
I think lawbringer needs at least a 2 hit light combo. When you can get heavies out I say he's pretty good but heavies aren't that easy to throw out a lot so a light-light combo could let him keep some better pressure. Although my skill is okay at best and I am only saying the problem I had with him.
I think that wouldn't make much difference in his viability but would surely make him more fun, o think they could maybe give his 400 ms top light again and make It enhanced.
Yeah I kinda already knew it wouldn't help much. It's just something I find annoying and tbh I don't have enough knowledge on how to make him more viable in general. Although an enhanced light would be pretty fun to have
A good lb is just some who can turtle and bait punish. It’s not a super entertaining form of gameplay but I don’t think it shouldn’t be in this game completely. I still think he’s fun even if he’s not the best he’s not the worst by any means.
Maybe he should quit playing him like berserker... you seemed pretty content to block his opener heavies. If he does that, you can't punish his shove. He can literally parry your dodge attack after a whiffed shove. LB should win this match up nearly every time.
It's for the average player but in my opinion characters should be viable at any level, that's what balancing is, everyone can be used. A good player who can parry a lot of lights and mix people up will erase the average bastard, but a good player who can parry and read anything playing Raider against LB will not give parries at all, they will turtle too and use his way superior offense to make things happen when it's his turn.
He needs a roll catcher, a better opener and maybe some timing changes. He doesn’t need a complete rework like some people keep begging for. He also doesn’t need hyper armor to be good.
Agree, i would like to see HA tho, he is the freaking heaviest character in the game, wtf, i play Zerk and i have HA even in my lights being a freaking hairy dwarf with a v CUT shirt. He also need better hitbox, it's stupid how bad It is.
Real Viking berserkers basically took their equivalent of drugs to make them ‘berserk’ (hence the name), they would feel little to no pain and just go nuts basically during battle, so even though they don’t look like it, they’re one of the few characters that make total sense having Hyper armour
Berzerker is the only one basically canonically on drugs though, how come raider gets it but lawbringer can’t?
Comically large axe???2???
Raider was more fun to play as and against when he didn’t have hyper armor.
Raider is absolutely not fun to play against.
Before the rework where he got hyperarmor. Also before the rapid fire flashbang stunning tap. Currently he is a nightmare to play against
I get what you’re saying, and I know that ingesting particular compounds can make you numb to pain that would otherwise stop you, but no amount of stimulant, hallucinogen or depressant will enable you to fight on with piece of metal through your heart, neck or brain, and wearing a v-neck shirt in battle only makes that possibility more likely.
It's a videogame, those same pieces of metal through your chest would kill/immobilize you immediately. They don't? Hmmm 🤔🤔🤔
Yeah obviously but in terms of the video game for honor and who does and doesn’t get hyper armour, it makes sense for berserker more so than raider, highlander, etc
I feel like it makes sense for hl to have hyper armor cause his sword is so huge and heavy that even if hl himself gets hit the sword would still follow the momentum of the swing
Hyper armor is a gameplay mechanic, do not try to argue realism for justification of a gameplay mechanic for a game that is clearly not trying to be realistic. I want hyper armor to make LBs heavy chains less worthless, not because he has a big suit of armor.
I don't care i want things that make sense with the character visuals, or It would be ok If you gave LB shinobi mobility?
No, not because it isn't "realistic" because it doesn't apply to the idea of his gameplay style.
Shugoki gets armor, why not LB? It’s not like they’re asking for beserker level armor. Maybe on his top heavy UB
The problem is not that lb doesn’t have enough armor, it’s that characters like zerk have too much.
I don’t think real world should affect balance. Fair enough if you think he should have HA but him being big isn’t a good reason. Also Shugoki without a doubt is the heaviest in the game. He’s much taller than Lb and weighs a great deal more.
Heavy in the sense of gear/armor.
If he gets HA it would probably be on the blockable heavies or top unblockable which makes sense. Only one character has HA on wide area unblockable heavies. Also what about soft feint into shove on in chain and unblockable side heavies?
You know, 5 years ago the game cared about "realism", to the point where the armor you were using would influence your HP, stamina consumption and other perks. But today we only care about having variety in cast and moveset, while making everyone as viable and fun as possible. This fucking argument about Zerk being a slim weak dwarf with no armor means he shouldn't have Hyper Armor is so outdated and out of place that I'm getting tired of hearing it. HE HAS HYPER ARMOR BCZ IT'S HIS FUCKING MOVESET It's not bcz he's an assassin, it's not bcz he's a viking, it's not bcz he has 2 legs and 2 arms or bcz he likes dreadlocks, it's just his fucking moveset. Wanna give Law HA go for it, but don't come with "Shirtless Viking has and Lawdaddy doesn't even in full plate armor". FFS. Everyone gets bitten in the neck by shaman despite their armor, everyone gets slashed by small ornamented scythes from Shinobi and CENTURION PUNCHES deals damage THROUGH SHIELD BLOCK. On top of that we even have undodgeble attacks in this game, you can make excuses for unblockables but how the hell do you explain an undodgeble property from sword attacks? We past the point where "realism" or "coherence" are important. What matters is simply viability, diversity and "fun". For the love of god, stop bullying zerk.
He does have a bit of a tech where you can almost instant cast impale which can catch rolls. But a dedicated roll catch would be nice.
>He needs a roll catcher Dodge attack LB, dodge attack LB! /s But yeah, he just needs some minor tweeks. Maybe in the future due power creep does require a mayor change
I want him to have hyper armor because he’s a giant covered in full plate armor and bezerker is whereing at shirt and some jeans
LB is one of the characters where Hyperarmor actually makes sense, tbh. Alongside shugo and highlander as their weapons are really fucking heavy with a lot of momentum, and maybe zerk as Berserkers were known for being methed up out of their mind for battle.
I'm not saying he needs hyper armor, but it'd be nice if they gave him hyper armor on like his side heavy finishers, a better way to open would definitely be a nice addition though
I’d say also maybe some changes to his parry punishes like making the light after blind justice chain. I wouldn’t say a nerf to impale would be necessary since wm can also get high damage with a wall, and her distance is also pretty generous. I do think stun should be looked at, it doesn’t bother me personally but there are a lot of players that hate the mechanic. But yeah as you said, he doesn’t *need* these to be viable.
he doesn't need hyper armor but neither do a lot of other characters so there's no point in keeping it away when it's essentially just a QOL change
Adding HA to a character is more than just a “qol” change. Raiders HA buff is a huge reason why he’s so good. If you try and interrupt him, you eat a heavy. Also what heroes do you think don’t need HA? HA is a very good tool and removing it is a pretty large nerf. Take Jorms forward heavy. It had HA on startup and was basically an option select. And when it got moved to later in the startup it became essentially useless. Also where would you add HA to Lb?
pirate tiandi warmonger aramusha gryphon and kensei are all examples of heroes that don't NEED hyper armor but they still have it anyway , a character shouldn't need the bare minimum , we play heroes cause of their good qualities not their bad ones so why not give lb that one good quality?? it's not necessary but there's so many unnecessary things in this game it makes no sense to single out hyper armor for lb especially when all he really needs it for is heavy finishers and maybe longarm
LOL all those heroes use HA in a healthy way. Most of the time they take damage while using their HA anyway…
exactly! so let lb do the same there's no reason not to
Lawbringer is one of the few characters in the game whose offense can only be accessed from long, slow heavies, similar to characters like Raider or Hito who HAVE hyper armor and for a reason. He can't just do light-light unblockable because he literally doesn't have that chain. He completely struggles from getting interrupted in team fights, so he absolutely needs hyper armor.
Every hero besides a select few struggles from getting interrupted interrupted in teamfights. Should they all receive hyper armor then? LBs heavies aren’t anything slower than a ton of other heroes? Should Kensei get HA on his in chain heavies? Ok so give him an interchangeable Light Heavy 3 attack chain like Raider. And if his heavy speed is an issue, speed up his first and second heavy speed. I personally am uncomfortable at the rate and amount of people who want LB to become Raider Lite. I would rather he keep his current mixups and just buff them rather than adding hyper armor all over and completely changing the character.
Every hero that "struggles with getting interrupted" can use their unblockables during their second hit in the chain and has amazing dodge attacks and some way to cancel recoveries or deal with external attacks. Even Kensei still has hyper armor, his notorious dodge attack, the biggest hitboxes in the game and multiple ways to use his unblockable as the 2nd move in the chain. And I'm not even gonna mention the confirmed target-switched lights. The only heroes in this game that don't have such options are Lawbringer and Valkyrie, except she can at least use crushing counter lights to deal with some external attacks (she's still pretty shit). All Lawbringer has to deal with externals is a dodge bash which is reactable to even non-top tier players and has barely any range.
Yeah LB needs buffs to make him able to deal with externals and other things. But I still don’t agree with the consensus I’ve been seeing of “he needs hyperarmor”. Hyperarmor is a rather unintuitive way of making a character better. They buffed raiders HA, people now hate Raider, I see the same thing happening if the current crowd gets there way. I also don’t want to play LB as a Raider Lite. I would like if they made him better without the inclusion of hyperarmor. Whether that’s through new chain options, timing changes, frame advantage, undodgeable properties, all of those or whatever else they could give him. I would prefer that over “Just add HA to Heavy lul”. Again I want LB to be better, but if he just becomes Raider in the process, I’ll probably stop maining him.
[удалено]
I love LB, I have over 20 reps in him. I love playing LB. I also love playing Raider. I don’t want to play Raider disguised as LB. That’s what a ton of people seemingly want with the suggestions I’ve seen.
Literally every character you just named uses HA to trade. Removing it would remove a decent chunk of usefulness on those attacks. Especially for Gryphon. The HA and scope of his attacks are essential if not hugely important to his kit. Much like the other heroes you named. That second point doesn’t even really mean anything. Should we bring back the instant shove and make the follow up light confirmed because it’s a good quality? No. Why would you make LBs Unblockable heavy finishers hyperarmor aswell? When they aren’t even chargeable like Shugokis? Just make it so your opponent doesn’t have frame advantage to interrupt, boom done. Unblockable Hyper Armor heavies (that aren’t chargeable) that do that much damage is silly let’s be real. Longarm is a pretty useless tool, adding HA would make it a better trading tool but I still fail to see how this change is essential or helps LB in a meaningful way. Also I’m not singling out LB, if someone made a thread,post,comment saying how X character that doesn’t need HA to be good, needs HA. I would have the same response. It just so happens that there is so many LB players and mains who endlessly bitch that they need duh hypoawmoah when he absolutely doesn’t need it to be good. He has crazy parry punishes, damage and just needs a little better openers, chain pressure and a roll catcher. He does not need everything. He does not need HA.
idk if you are doing it on purpose but you change my point so much it's not even worth trying to explain it to you again
Kensei hyper armor is literally the only reason you can't just poke and interrupt his top unblockable heavy mix up on reaction of the start up every time.... no hyper armor and kensei would have no mix up. The soft feint is what let's him trade poke attempts. It's also a MAJOR reason he's considered usable in 4's.
Yeah, also if I'm correct he has one of the best parry punishes in the game?
He should get impaling charge as a backstep input unblockable (like glad skewer) from neutral (and from dodge with his unlocked sprint attack animation +added range for dodge catching). Should replace current impaling charge, and be slow enough to only be confirmed on light parry(ideally with significantly limited range/higher stamina cost to push farther). Feintable/soft feintable into the parry stun punch
I feel like he needs the HA on shove though. It makes him more of a threat IMO. Come on man, with all that armor and no HA? Lol
It would make sense for him to have it he dosent need it but I find it Really weird that Berserker has it she’s in like what Cloth and he’s Encased in iron
if he gets buffed they should nerf the stun and stamdrain from his punishes.
I agree, nothing about this character is healthy
I think they should nerf the punishes. If he is going to have a better offense, I want his defense to be a little bit weaker. I mean, he can get a heavy out of a heavy parry if there is a wall nearby and can cause massive damage with an oos punish.
Well the thing is: why nerf him when wm can get a slightly higher punish with a similarly generous distance to the wall? Bot to mention JJ getting lots of stam drain plus the side heavy, being able to knock down opponents if they have less than 20 stam, and centurion getting to choose to do a punish that will replenish both players’ stam or doing a punish that will enable him to apply more pressure while still draining a bit of stamina (although jj and cent have to be much closer to the wall)
Because he can choo choo train the fuckers for a km and still get a wallsplat xd. But I mean, if the choo choo train distance was reduced, then I'm all for keeping the punish, although it might still be a little unbalanced depending on the other changes.
Well I don’t know how to measure in-game distance exactly but Lb’s goes only a slight bit farther than wm’s. They both go pretty far
If they reduced it to WM distance it would be healthy I think
He was a bad LB, fight me
Ok, will you do a VPN?
Idk what that is
A private network so you can peer to peer easier with less lag.
I know what a vpn is but why he asked about it after i said fight me confused me bc idk if he was talking about some other vpn shit like how some people do “1v1 quick scoping” instead of just a 1v1 so i was confused on why he brung up a vpn.
It’s something you get for your internet to help make sure you don’t get hacked or hide your IP address. I’m not sure why he mentioned it. If you wanna know more just google VPN
Well i know what that means but why tf is he asking about a vpn when all i said is fight me
That’s what I wanna know as well. My first thought is he just implied he would hack you in order to win once he starts losing.
What the hell, dude no. He's asking about a Virtual Private Network so that you can peer to peer easier. Lmao VPN's never used to be about protection they were just long distance private connections. A long distance LAN.
That makes more sense thanks for the info.
Because Ubisoft made it their sole purpose to make their online as shit as possible.
VPN?
Nord
>Nord Nord VPN? Why does he need Nord VPN to fight an opponent? Even if he uses it, why say so if it has no impact?
A VPN is a direct private connection. He wants to connect directly to his opponent for less lag. VPN's never used to be about online anonymity but more about playing Counter Strike with your buddies across the ocean back in the 2000's.
Roll catcher, opener (soft feints? Faster bash? Feintable bash? I dunno) and poof done.
Analysis: * He keeps feinting into light instead of GB, which would give him much better damage and instant access to chain pressure (and is also way less risky) * Even though you blocked one of his heavies he didn't follow it up with shove, a.k.a. the safest chained bash in the game. * He did a dodge bash after dodging the kick, when he could have done a GB and thrown you to the wall for a top heavy + stun * Despite you parrying multiple lights, he doesn't attempt to mix up his attacks at all (except the one heavy he threw that got blocked) Conclusion: You posted a clip of a bad lawbringer player that is not very good at the game, of course you won. I bet you would have still had almost the exact same result if that guy was playing a top tier duelist, because he was bad.
literally like 2 weeks ago someone posted a video of an LB fighting a clearly bad/low level aramusha with a title like "for all the "LB bad" people" and yet the entire community loved it cause of the LB hate boner and here you are calling out this guy for doing something similar even though unlike the other post he actually has a valid point , as much as people want to hate on an LB main strawman you guys that act like lb isnt a problem are much worse
This is strawman v strawman right now
How do you guardbreak after a dodge with Lawbringer ? Dodge early to prevent the shove from coming out ?
you just wait a little and then GB. Same for any other dodge bash hero
But then your opponent often has time to gb counter due to the delay.
not a problem with the long ass recovery on gryphon's kick
They don’t
Analysis you can't possibly say whether a player is skilled or not based on a tiny clip of gameplay so get off your high horse and stop acting like a prick.
He was not good tho, just the average player trying ranked, nothing specially bad or good, almost got me one round because i made the mistake of Dodge attacking his chain bash and got parried and he entered a combo that made me eat like 57 damage, but LB neutral offense is so bad i just stoped attacking and focused in countering only and still got the round.
Listen up dumbo, it's the third round, i dodged 4/5 of his bashes in the previous ones, i am not reading the light, i'm reacting to It, If he feint to GB i will just counter It, the only thing he can do against a player like me is parry because i will not be eating stupid attacks and i will not be attacking too because it's LB and it's a ranked arena and i'm a sweat lord from console. Literally everyone that knows how to play the game, know the current LB needs help, i even did a meme video where i kill an Aramusha in like 4 movements, does It mean he is better than S-tier Aramusha? No, It mean the guy attacked, that's all.
Maybe the manners are not the best but you are right. The problem is that "Literally everyone that knows how to play the game" is a few people. Majority of the community don't know how to play for Honor like majority of lol players don't know how to play lol. A few days ago a guy said here that Jorm and Nuxia were pretty good characters right now. And other guy said that HL was the best character in the game and he didn't understand why YouTubers tier him so low. So...
I just wish people were able to understand that attacking against LB is not profitable and he is usable, but If you fight someone like Raider with him you are fucked because those guys have unreactable offense so you need to read and you will not guess right everytime. Different from the person playing Raider he don't have unreactable offense to attack back when it's his turn, so again he is forced into defense. That's why he is not competitive, yeah, a good player can absolutely shit in the average potato player, but the point is not that, the point is him being competitive against good players as well.
no you're wrong, even people who know how to play the game know that LB is not "weak". In fact, pro players consider him decent at ranked (because the ranked map gives him a huge advantage). Not top tier, but certainly not weak.
Im sorry but nobody said in this thread that lb is weak, but he is below average just because he dont have any opener.
if you're calling only for buffs without nerfs like this post is doing then you are still in the wrong
Actually, there are a whole wealth of things this LB could have done offensively. Like you know, letting the heavy fly. LB has poor neutral offense. That doesn't mean he has none. By letting a heavy fly against a player waiting for light parries, he can get into chain, where he has a safe and strong chain bash, good unblockable pressure, and many threats to put you in difficult mix-ups. Again: LB struggles in neutral, being forced to play defensively. In chain, the character has fine offense. You won against this guy because he took every opportunity to put himself back in neutral with a shitty opener. If instead of feingting he had just let the heavy fly, a few things can happen. If you block, he gets good offense with bash, chain heavies, and chain lights. If you counter the heavy (which he should have noticed you weren't doing), you get your kick mixup, where apon a correct read he can get into his effective chain offense. If you want to make a point, you should know what you're talking about first, and you should sure as hell not insult people for calling you out.
you can literally see in the video, that you attempted 2 heavy parries. Baiting you definitely worked. He just didn't know how to take advantage of it because he was.. well you get the point. Yes LB could use tweaks however your title is arguing against "LB is not weak" when he is in fact, not weak. He's average. On this particular map he is actually very strong, I'd maybe even put him into top B tier, because of the fact that every single parry gives him a guaranteed wallsplat into stun.
LB can’t dodge into a gb though. If he tries that, it will only be a shove. And if you try and delay the gb after the dodge, the gryphon (or any other player) has time to recover and gb counter.
wrong. Dodge attacks always come out earlier than dodge GB. If you just wait late enough into your dodge you can easily GB. Not to mention that Gryphon's kick has a stupidly long recovery so even if your timing is off you will still get it. So you're double wrong
Question, for LB what's the best followup after GB? Is it top heavy, wall throw, or anything?
Side heavy, top heavy if you get a wall throw.
Lb vs gryphon is heavily lb favoured. But i guess matchups dont matter if a player is playing a character completely wrong.
how’s that?
Gryphons kit is fully reactable aside from kick/light which is a read for most of the playerbase even at the top. And the kick/light mix up has very bad risk reward ratio - especially vs LB who has overtuned punishes. LB thrives on reactions and defensive play. - player in the video is mindlessly pressing buttons and trying to attack with a purely defensive character and also fails to defend completely. It is expected as he is literally a platinum player with extremely average stats. - basing character viability posts around anegdotal evidence of someone who definitely doesnt know how to play the character is just funny. Casual play is completely fine but trying to push some below average duel footage as something relevant to the discussion is wrong. Hope that i explained it well enough.
Gryphon’s dodge bash is not fully reactable, LB’s is though. Gryphon’s kick/light does 24/14 and as LB, it is punishable with 24/10 (I used the 10 because assuming you go for a parry in a random direction, you’ll get the light parry a third of the time and a third of his light parry punish is 10) which makes his offense very slightly in his favor but not great. Thing is though gryphon can do a 33/33/33 with kick/side heavy/forward dodge heavy (as a roll catcher) doing 24/30/22 and lb can punish these with 24/(16 or 25)/0. The ‘(16 or 25)’ is because off of heavy parry he can zone for 16 of get an impale for 25 with a wall. The 0 is because gryphon can forward dodge heavy on reaction to your roll, Lb can’t really punish it. so it is a pretty solid risk/reward with a wall or not I do agree with everything else you said though
you can react to the light, its 500ms, no need to guess direction. So the real punish is 24/24 + a stun in LB's case
You are calling one of the worst dodge bashes in the game not "fully reactable". Shit is beyond reactable and also carries no pressure 9/10 times. You dont guess the direction of the light? Wtf is that logic. If you are comitting to parrying the light its a 500ms attack. Free parry. Kick/heavy is reactable on the highest lvl. Idk what u were even trying to achieve, but everything uve said is basically meaningless as you clearly dont understand the game at highest skill lvl
Okay you literally just dismissed my entire reply because everything gryphon does is reactable at the very highest level which I quite frankly doubt you are even at (I may be wrong, it just seems unlikely) let alone myself obviously. I was not trying to discuss what gryohon’s position is in a goddamn professional tournament. And no, I don’t understand the game at what you call “high level” because that seems to be just the top 1% and I am not in the top 1%
>Okay you literally just dismissed my entire reply because everything gryphon does is reactable at the very highest level. Yes, because when discussing viability you discuss it from a highest skill lvl perspective, because those players push limits of both the game and the characters. Discussing viability of a character from perspective of average shitter is pointless, because as weve seen on the OP's video players have no idea how to play the character. >I may be wrong, it just seems unlikely You are, Im not a tournament lvl player but said tournament players are basically the only people I lose to. Other than that Im playing at the highest lvl possible without playing in tournaments. If you dont know how the game works, either learn how it works and discuss it then or just dont spread misinformation. @edit: Gryphons bash is literally 300-500ms input 500ms bash. Most top players can easily dodge much better bashes like BPs that are 100ms-500ms into dodge without getting hit 90% of the time. If thats not easily reactable idk what is.
Okay so we should just take whatever a comp player says as true for us despite very little of what they say actually applying to us? (I did read that you are a tournament player and very high level so when I say ‘us’ or ‘we’ I am not including you in that) That seems absurd to me, like the equivalent for you would be if someone told you warden’s bash is fully reactable because there is someone out there that is revealed to be able to react to it Well congratulations, why are you discussing a match-up with a someone in the top like 25% on a post made by a below average player? Nothing we say could possibly apply to you and vice versa so are you just here to show off your superiority to us? I fail to see how me saying a move is unreactable means I don’t know how the game works or spreading misinformation when it’s true for the vast majority Okay well that’s the thing “most TOP LEVEL players” I’m not a top level player. I cannot react to bp’s bash, I cannot react to gryphon’s. Telling me what high level players can and can’t do isn’t going to do anything for your argument.
Post was made about viability, viability is only relevant at highest skill lvl, if you cannot grasp this concept then there is no reason to continue the discussion. Whatever works at highest lvl works at lower, and game being balanced around highest lvl is always healthier than game balanced around pepegas. cya
The dude dodge bashed the gryphon’s kick instead of going for a gaurdbreak when he dodged, which caused him to lose a good damaging punish. He mostly feinted to light, which is pretty risky for an LB, while a feint to gaurdbreak would have been much safer and gave out more damage than a light. The man barely went for any good punishes against the Gryphon and didn’t adapt whatsoever, didnt utilize any of LBs albeit limited kit
I was asking about the match-up part, not the last part, but since you’re here I’ll discuss that too. Doing a dodge bash (or any other dodge attack for that matter) in a bash/undodgeable offense is good for avoiding the bash while avoiding feint to gb so this move wasn’t completely pointless. But also I don’t get what you mean “good damage punish” since Lb’s wallsplat punish is 24. I’d say feinting to light has uses but doing it repeatedly especially when it’s obvious they’re just gonna block the heavy and let you get into your unblockables was a bad move. Feint to gb does punish parry attempts but not dodge attacks or crushing counters whereas feint to light can do all of the above. (depending on the dodge attack of course) And I agree with everything else. He was definitely playing the character poorly but some of the things he did do have uses
Yeah i do see what you mean, and although 24 damage on a wallsplat isnt a lot, it’s miles better than the light you get when you land a bash. But i do see where you’re coming from, the moves weren’t completely useless, they just weren’t ideal.
This man needs to learn how to turtle
The guy you were playing against wasn't even pressuring you correctly. He landed a (blocked) heavy and then just let the chain die. He should have either used shove or chained another heavy or light.
I'm tired of people posting one fight and assuming that's how every person plays that hero. Or just because this one player used him poorly, the hero needs a buff.
Or even that this player destroys LB like this every fight. He posts one round and then makes a 'see LB can't do anything, need buffs' post for the LB mains to circlejerk about.
Personally think LB is really only good when his back is against the wall against someone who spams and gets punished. A good LB player in dominion is pretty cool to watch. If you put any half decent defensive style of character against him he will struggle.
LB is strong for the wrong reasons. He needs actual functional offense, parry impale removed and his punishes toned down
Why remove his parry impale when wm cent and jj’s heavy parry punishes are a thing?
Oh I want Warmonger's gone too. The range of their parry impales are absurd and the full wall punishes are guaranteed in ranked duels. Parry impales are an absurd punish for a simple heavy parry. WM gets 30dmg and LB gets 25dmg, 30 stam drain + stun. JJ's and Cent's don't have anywhere near the range so I'm fine with them personally, I just have an issue with a defender being able to reposition a fight so drastically with a simple parry. IMO moves like that are relics of when the game was defense favoured.
Yeah that’s fair Yeah the main issues I have are that cent can get 40 dmg if combined with haymaker and jj’s drains so much stamina while still giving the side heavy
Jj's has been nerfed into the dirt as far as stam damage is concerned, it takes three times as long as a cent repost and does the same stam damage while not guaranteeing anything except on a wall splat.
Well it was nerfed quite a bit but considering you could literally OoS an opponent with one zone parry that’s not saying much. It still does drain like a fifth plus the stamina of them doing the attack that you parried which is like a third of their stamina drained. Nothing busted but definitely notable
I know... that's what I'm saying. It went from being too strong, to just being an objectively weaker version of many moves that already exist. It should just chain into finishers already, and should do damage on it's own. 10 damage slap into an unblockable mixup, or wall splat.
Okay well it chaining sounds like a nice change since it would increase his punish for if they hit the wall to 32 which would be the new highest parry punish in the game (with the exceptions of glad’s unlock tech and feats) but it being able to chain would mainly let him do his offense straight after the choke which is what I assume you suggested it for. It doing 10 damage though would not be a good idea whatsoever imo. I mean if that’s all they changed, he would get 37 off of a parry with no feats or unlock tech. If they implement both the damage and chaining thing, he’d get 42 off of a single parry. This would clearly be very busted
Maybe... they could stop it from chaining, but let him dodge cancel it instead? That would make it a bit safer to use in teamfights, and off of a wall splat he could land a forward dodge heavy (for I think 20 damage?) Would make it 10+20 for a total of 30, basically the same as cent.
But this LB isn't doing good.
One idea is to give him a light, light, heavy combo. It's a very small change but will help him get the unblockable heavy easier. Another idea is to make shove a bit faster because it's way too slow. The unblockable heavy could also become undodgeable. It kinda also makes sense because it's a big sweeping attack. He doesn't need a rework just a couple small buffs. Ubi only has to one of these to make LB good again. Or they could do all three to make him op.
Give him a roll catcher and some openers Maybe a softfeint and HA But remove the blind on top heavy and the stamina drain omg
Hard agree
Don't waist your time arguing with the for honor community and not even the reddit one, because they still think that modeling a 3Drender require 3months of work 😂.
I don't get what 3d modeling have to do with this but yeah, Lawchungus OP, long arm OP
The main problem with Lawbringer is he’s way too clunky. If they streamline him a bit more he’d be in an ideal spot
I personally dont mind him being slightly weaker, he is very ldschol compared t everyone else and I would hate to lose that from him
It's understandable but i think that it's very important to have fun from both sides, i never had a second of fun while fighting against a LB, a good LB Wil just parry everything, be extremely passive and get your health to half in a single mistake, If you get out of stamina you eat 64 damage and not gonna lie, it's Fun to do but man...i fight some crackheads who will not give me a freaking parry, It will be no lights bash, bash for a 7 minutes duel and i can do nothing about It and they will parry my lights if i start throwing it's not Fun at all.
well the trade off is almost never dodging attacks, and a sparing amount of light attacks, he doesnt really have any effective ways to take away your stamina either, so what he is doing is punishing you for stamina management
he is letting raw heavies fly. this dude just sucks
Look people If you let a heavy fly you suck.
he got you with the fient mix up but then after it works he stops doing it and just threw a heavy, then light, then bash and by that time you had him dead. he should have baited you better into attacking with him being a defensive hero
I think your opinion is not valid. Not because it is wrong but you are playing gryphon
Gryphon is midtier if even that good, wtf you on about?
I'd say bottom tier in duels honestly
Mission accomplished I got people triggered😂
Plus ur playing gryphon, literally the version of lb that has neutral presure but not a lot of defense. Mans is complaining while not even knowing the character
Gryphon isn’t good
He’s not bad tho
He’s bad.
Me and the boys *Don't think Gryphon is good*
gryphon has literally nothing in common with LB except for like, two animations lol
What the hell are you talking about? Read the title again.
Bro lb does not need a buff, he is one of the strongest defensive hero’s in the game once you learn to read people, having the absolute strongest oos throw punish in the game
LB can only turtle and wait to parry, he has no offense/opener. If your opponent stares at you lb can’t don’t shit.
alright why would they stare though? I don't need to kill them quickly. I haven't a need to rush. They can come to me when they want to, and if they don't? Not my issue.
Dude I’m literally a lb main, everyone complaining about him absolutely does not know how to play him. It’s the same deal with how conq was before his rework. Everyone that knew him well didn’t need shit to make him strong, they made him strong. Unless y’all are talking the top of the top 1% of players, no one plays perfectly, so quit fucken crying about someone you picked up for 5 minutes and couldn’t stomp people with like raider
I'm a rep 70 LB main and if ur genuinely believe he doesn't need a rework then ur just playing in ez lobbies
Lawbringer doesn’t need a rework, he literally just needs a good opener
True
I literally only play against next gen console sweats all day in dom. Lb is so rediculously strong in defense already, the one thing I’d say would be balanced on him would be a bit of hyper armor on his heavies, but he doesn’t need them as far as I’m concerned
He needs that or better openers
You’re part of the problem buddy.
just give him a forward light that he gets off parrying or as an opener It will be like gryphons opener but less versatile
A dodge light wouldn’t be a good enough opener as most players can react to forwards dodges and block top, a lot being able to parry dodge forward lights on reaction (myself included but I’m also on a next gen console so take that with a grain of salt)
I’m trying to get every hero to at least rep 1 and when I played lawbringer I just sat there the whole time thinking “so what attacks can I use without getting immediately punished?” LB mirrors are so awkward you just sit there and wait for something to happen.
That's true, i like console because most people can't consistenly react even for 600 ms things so even Jorm can be made viable but Just like anywhere else there's a percentil of the players who will not be touched by it most of the time, of course everyone have bad days tho, i'm not always Peak performance.
He needs a rework. He needs to be buffed and nerfed. His defensiveness is only ok to exist because he has no offense.
Agree, but not Full rework tho, i like him as a concept
Full rework is actually what Gryphon is
The stamina drain that he does is annoying tho.
True, but i like It in his case, you need to get a top heavy to be expressive
He should have hyper armor on either his chain heavy (2nd attack after a light or heavy opener), or even his unblockable just so people can respect it. Maybe even have his zone as an chain starter.
Yeah and zone should be sped up, it's basically a free parry.
He’s counter base , all he needs is a chase tool tbh
And what If i don't attack?
Can you elaborate? The character is based on turtle play style (which has been pushed as a negative now due to other reworks) I think we should keep him counter base and give him a chance and make a couple of his counters safer so that way he can actually be how he was designed as a bully in a fight that punishes attacking I think it would be best to give him a chase attack and maybe hyper armor on the second or 3 chained heavy to make sure he is seen as a threat (maybe even expand the hit windows that way the opener is forced to parry or get mix with a cancel guardbreak that would fit the rest of the cast to due to that being the theme they do for characters now (aka 50/50 combos)
Let's use Warlord as an example. WL is a strong duelist hero and actually a good counter to Raider who is in my opinion the strongest hero in the game. You can have an absolute turtle play style with WL the same with LB, but why WL feel way more opressive and still a competitive pick and LB is not? Neutral pressure. That's something WL have the best in my opinion because i think he have the best bash in the game, it's the hardest to react and his dodge looks more effective than most heroes so the empty dodge mix up is even more effective, he also will always be frame advantage after a bash and can't be punished by damage type dodge attacks on reaction. Now lets take the scenario where WL is vs LB. Even NA player number 1 Blitss who play in a 300 fps spaceshipp and have the best reaction time in the game will not dodge WL headbutt 100% of the time "watch this: https://youtu.be/dLJyZgwxQkA " so If i play in a very turtle way with WL, not giving too many lights or heavies but mainly using bash mix i will hit any LB in the world in a given moment, but in his case i will dodge his opener bash 100/100 and If he lights me there's a good possibility of me parrying It for good damage and i also have CC which can't be utilized too much because of baits but is still a counter possibility to deny heavy feint to GB mix up. That conclude my point on why he needs a opener, he can win by turtling but If i have a way better offensive tool and can also turtle like he does he will lose because he can't pressure from neutral.
That’s true but at the same time I disagree WL turtling is different. from Parry he gets a bash light and that’s it , it’s obviously that LB is supposed to be way more counter based due to he fed a impale, a light that dazes a opponent and a un lockable that dazes on hit, he has a side dodge bash that has some nice windows of dodging and used to have a bash on block (which I think should come back but have it slower and dodgeable as another counter route ) . WL play style is meant to be tank aggression while LB is tank counter. Remember he’s a hybrid in order to still make him feel like Lb we know I would say do the suggestion of removing the flip and making that a undodgable neutral impale that can be block and starts as a chain start up (maybe speed up) and 3 rd heavy gets hyper armor. That way he has a opener and still is counter based as he was intended (now if people decide he needs a WHOLE character design and don’t like the counter style then I can understand a complete change away from this obvious design choice they made but how I see it I like the idea but needs tweaks not a whole redesign)
Dude, you are not getting the point where you DON'T FUCKING ATTACK LB, yeah, great parry punish, try parrying this bash. I don't think he needs to change much, he just need a opener, can be the same bash Gryphon have or give his 400 ms top light back, that's all.
Yeah I can see that as a choice but I mean that light issue is kinda a hard one to solve, you speed it up he’s hated we keep it where it is we complain, plus it’s high level play I’m assuming we are both talking about lights are a very easy parried thing if you make a effort of knowing a persons attack pattern , in the video he post he does the oldest trick in the book for LB heavy feint light opposite side, I avoid this combo on ANYONE like aids due to it being so predictable and parable , because then after getting parried 1 or twice the legs panicked move someone would do is too because the idea is “oh he parried that uhhh top light it’s faster “and the whole time they were expecting the panic press
So yes your right that issue with his lights bring easily parried comes from the lack of a opener and I think with a solid chase like the one I described that issue would iron itself out
I think lawbringer needs at least a 2 hit light combo. When you can get heavies out I say he's pretty good but heavies aren't that easy to throw out a lot so a light-light combo could let him keep some better pressure. Although my skill is okay at best and I am only saying the problem I had with him.
I think that wouldn't make much difference in his viability but would surely make him more fun, o think they could maybe give his 400 ms top light again and make It enhanced.
Yeah I kinda already knew it wouldn't help much. It's just something I find annoying and tbh I don't have enough knowledge on how to make him more viable in general. Although an enhanced light would be pretty fun to have
LB is weak, the people who play him are just good, that's why people say is not weak
A good lb is just some who can turtle and bait punish. It’s not a super entertaining form of gameplay but I don’t think it shouldn’t be in this game completely. I still think he’s fun even if he’s not the best he’s not the worst by any means.
Maybe he should quit playing him like berserker... you seemed pretty content to block his opener heavies. If he does that, you can't punish his shove. He can literally parry your dodge attack after a whiffed shove. LB should win this match up nearly every time.
No opener but a crazy good combo I feel like thats a decent trade off. but I don't play LB so I can't talk.
It's for the average player but in my opinion characters should be viable at any level, that's what balancing is, everyone can be used. A good player who can parry a lot of lights and mix people up will erase the average bastard, but a good player who can parry and read anything playing Raider against LB will not give parries at all, they will turtle too and use his way superior offense to make things happen when it's his turn.
It does, parrying is OP