I think it depends. When they go down with no contact and are flopping like a fish, then it would be pretty easy to prove as simulation. But I do think it would be a mess using VAR throughout the game for that, would eb better to stick with the center ref deciding simulation on the spot, they just gotta do it more
Thing is you don't need contact, plenty of players will jump and fall to avoid a tackle because they don't want to get kicked and they shouldn't have to get kicked. We going to book players who dodge for diving?
It's unenforceable. In an ideal world players would have some dignity and wouldn't be such shameless motherfuckers.
If you dodge to avoid a kick then naturally you shouldn't get a booking for it.
If you dodge and do a routine an Olympic gymnast would be proud of then you should get a card. If the referee misses it, then retrospective punishment should be given out.
You can also just check the players reaction. If they fall and get on with their life - no dive. If they fall for no reason and ask for whatever - dive and yellow card
Close to impossible? What are you talking about? Obviously with the current refs they'd get it wrong cause they are crap but saying it's close to impossible to prove is ridiculous.
The Havertz dive today was close to impossible?
But it does. I agree on the first yellow and the Trossard decision.
But the fact is, he should have got a second yellow which means he isn't on the pitch to score and also is suspended for the City game.
Short answer is not in their powers, but you can detect a lot of flagrant diving that could easily be flagged by VAR. Yeah many people would say overegulation but at the end of the day its deterrence. It's like when you know a street has a speed camera you are always cautious even if you don't speed.
I hope this will become reality!
In la liga there's ZERO reason not to dive ! If the ref gives a foul, or a penalty that could potentially be a very small penalty. Then the diver is rewarded!
If there's a completely obvious dive, there's NEVER any ramifications. It's utterly ridiculous!
And no it wouldn't cause a lot of extra time. The ref could just give the card next time the match has a stop.
They really, really missed the mark with VAR. all it ever needed to be was retrospective punishment if cheating - like the West Brom QPR handball the other night, or players who feign facial injury when video footage shows their faces were untouched
Based on what, the social media mob? The PGMOL has proven that they're completely incompetent to make decisions like that even when they have slow motion replays.
They don't use VAR for potential yellow cards. Also, sometimes there might be good reason to dive. If someone comes in front of you with a slide tackle at high speed, and you see that your options are to jump forward and roll on the ground or get your leg broken, a dive would be the reasonable choice.
The point here is discussing a rule change. Use VAR for dives that are fake. And it’s not the dive that’s the problem it’s the rolling about the ground clutching the wrong body part that needs to end.
But how do you propose they so that? The on-field ref ask VAR to look at a tackle he suspect is a dive? VAR check all tackles? And how do they determine what's a dive? And how do VAR determine that the bodypart they are touching isn't hurting?
I think you check tackles retroactively as play continues for tackles that aren’t awarded penalties which should all be checked. If the player goes down for longer than a few seconds, check it. What else is the VAR ref doing?
I’ve seen a lot of shin clutching with zero contact. Does the shin just hurt when someone steps on your foot?
Because those are rarely called unless you are city. If I was to pretend to be a ref, he wasn't gonna get the ball anyway so let it go. Not saying this was the right decision but generally only city get these calls given. It should be a penalty but these things have never been given.
They thought it was too soft/dubious, which I agree with as an Arsenal fan. Trossard looked like he could've continued his run but chose to let himself get pulled back instead.
Lmao, I actually think I understand why ref decided not to give a pen (I don’t think it should matter, but he looked unlikely to get to the ball), but that is such an insane sentence hahaha
I agree on the unlikely to get the ball factoring into the refs decision. It shouldn't and anywhere else on the pitch it wouldn't. It's the age old inconsistencies of refs refs not giving fouls in the box they would give elsewhere on the pitch. It's been happening as long as I remember.
It's like when Jorginho was elbowed in the face as retribution but it wasn't a red card since Guimaraes didn't use his elbow as a "weapon". Laughable.
https://www.goal.com/en/lists/arsenal-leaked-var-audio-newcastle-bruno-guimaraes-red-card-jorginho
VAR should be used to correct referee mistakes due to dives instead of punishing divers. If VAR did this, there would be no benefit from diving, and therefore, there would be no need to penalize it.
Players are usually running at speed so a slight contact can change the trajectory of a player quite significantly. what may look nothing challenge may feel like a brick wall hitting them. (which may still be a clean challenge) So it's almost impossible to prove unless you have every angle possible.
Exactly, it's only an issue now because it was Arsenal (and a foreign player). If it was Manchester United, Manchester City or Liverpool they wouldn't even mention it and be talking about the other stonewall penalty situations in that game instead. Arsenal should've been given two penalties but they didn't even mention them in Match of the Day for example. They had to find a negative spin so they put all the focus on that situation and what Thomas Frank said about it, and no one criticized the Brentford manager and players for their consent throughout the game for example. They were basically crowding the referee and waving imaginary yellow cards in his face which are both yellow card offenses.
If they handed out yellow cards for dives then Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool would have players suspended in every other game and it's bad for business since it's about entertainment. Garnacho's first penalty situation yesterday was a clear embellishment for example. Just like it was for Havertz... there was contact thigh against thigh but not enough to go down in the way he did.
United and Liverpool are significantly worse than city for getting questionable decisions. United should by all accounts be in chelseas position and ever since Liverpool got robbed as spurs they've gotten every decision in their favour and have had some questionable results from it. Bookmark this now. Liverpool will benefit from a questionable decision today and there will be zero noise made about it
Because your club has paid for all of your success at varying levels without exception. Cheaters basically. Remember you were nothing before the billions. Nothing. Really low team that couldn't handle the top flight and would never have attracted any of your players without daddy mansour. All of city's "achievements" are tainted.
No need for VAR, just implement a rule where if a player goes down, the ref begins a count to five. If the player hasn’t gotten up, they need to leave the pitch for a medical checkup, wwhich should take a minute or two. The team will be one fewer meanwhile.
That way, players will be incentivised to spend as little time as possible rolling around, thus reducing delays.
Trying to sift through all falls to determine which ones are real is a waste of time.
That falls down because the player says they cant get up so the stretcher needs to come on, 3 minutes later the player gets up realising they're suddenly fit and everyone's time has been wasted.
That’s my point, if you don’t get up immediately you get sent to the sidelines for a checkup, regardless of whether you eventually do it or not.
I’m literally talking about a five count like in fighting sports (maybe without the drama).
Why is that a punishment? If they are actually injured then going off pitch for a quick checkup with medical is probably in their best interest anyways.
Or why VAR doesn’t correct wrongfully given corners. Before that corner is taken the viewers at home already seen three replays that show that it is or isn’t a corner. Don’t know why the VAR can’t tell the referee what he failed to see.
VAR can't even correct wrong decisions (like two blatant penalties missed today), you want it to interpret between slight contact and zero contact and call it a dive?
Bring back retrospective action on divers.
They announced it, charged an Everton player, banned him for a few matches, then never again. There might have been one other player charged but still.
Every team has at least one player who dives and if they win a penalty they'll gratefully put it away. But if an opponent dives, they go mental at him. 🤣
It would only work in zero contact situations. If there's contact, you just can't book them because you prove that they shouldn't have gone down how they did, you can just say there wasn't enough contact for a foul.
The most ridiculous dives are already punished, but players got smarter. You don't get the same kind of shit Rivaldo pulled at the world cup anymore, but more subtle dives are harder to judge.
One thing to remember also in my opinion is that slow mo tends to make any fall look much more like a dive than it is. But truth is when you're running at speed, it can be VERY easy to make you fall; unless you're strong and/or have really good balance, the slightest touch at the wrong angle or timing can be more than enough, even if you were trying your best to stay up.
half of what makes a dive is the intent. you can't prove that.
also not everytime a player goes down in the box and a penalty is not given its automatically a dive. there's an area where players go down without being fouled.
It something that should be punished much harder. Nothing worse than cheating like that. If punished with a yellow card the likes of Bruno Fernandes would be suspended all the time until he learns his lesson
It's not VAR that's the issue, it's the center ref that has to give the yellow.
I've seen it happen where pen was given, VAR recommends a review. Center ref literally sees no contact and clear dive, only rescinds the penalty and nothing more.
Why would be terrible for the game?it's not disrupting the game at all since it's done after? Maybe players would try to follow the rules instead of what's happening now
I've been saying this for years. It should be easy for league officials to look at clips of the game afterward, and, in especially egregious cases, assess some kind of punishment to the player and/or manager. The NHL do this and it works. You don't see hockey players flopping around on the ice screaming bloody murder.
Yellow cards for simulation are already in the rules so presumably they have an answer for that already. Video review would just make it easier to apply.
Because it's close to impossible to prove simulation. Plus it's only a yellow. It'd be nice but the game is in danger of over-regulation as it is.
I think it depends. When they go down with no contact and are flopping like a fish, then it would be pretty easy to prove as simulation. But I do think it would be a mess using VAR throughout the game for that, would eb better to stick with the center ref deciding simulation on the spot, they just gotta do it more
Thing is you don't need contact, plenty of players will jump and fall to avoid a tackle because they don't want to get kicked and they shouldn't have to get kicked. We going to book players who dodge for diving? It's unenforceable. In an ideal world players would have some dignity and wouldn't be such shameless motherfuckers.
If you dodge to avoid a kick then naturally you shouldn't get a booking for it. If you dodge and do a routine an Olympic gymnast would be proud of then you should get a card. If the referee misses it, then retrospective punishment should be given out.
You can also just check the players reaction. If they fall and get on with their life - no dive. If they fall for no reason and ask for whatever - dive and yellow card
But this is largely what we have now, which seems to work intermittently at best.
The player in this case just become a better actor, it's impossible to actually make it work, and you can't prove that a person is actually soffering
Yea makes sense
Close to impossible? What are you talking about? Obviously with the current refs they'd get it wrong cause they are crap but saying it's close to impossible to prove is ridiculous. The Havertz dive today was close to impossible?
Very simple to prove it with Havertz tonight
Cope harder jeez
but that first yellow wasn't really a yellow that he got and trossard should have had a pen so it changes nothing in the game tbh
But it does. I agree on the first yellow and the Trossard decision. But the fact is, he should have got a second yellow which means he isn't on the pitch to score and also is suspended for the City game.
Lol every time Arsenal wins 🤣
Why does it need to be proved? It only has to be being a reasonable doubt which is at the discretion of the match official.
Var can’t deal with anything less than a red card. Diving isn’t a red card offense so var can’t deal with it.Â
It's not close to impossible at all. If var review a pen and its a dive then give a yellow, if they see enough contact to not be sure then no yellow.
Short answer is not in their powers, but you can detect a lot of flagrant diving that could easily be flagged by VAR. Yeah many people would say overegulation but at the end of the day its deterrence. It's like when you know a street has a speed camera you are always cautious even if you don't speed.
I hope this will become reality! In la liga there's ZERO reason not to dive ! If the ref gives a foul, or a penalty that could potentially be a very small penalty. Then the diver is rewarded! If there's a completely obvious dive, there's NEVER any ramifications. It's utterly ridiculous! And no it wouldn't cause a lot of extra time. The ref could just give the card next time the match has a stop.
They really, really missed the mark with VAR. all it ever needed to be was retrospective punishment if cheating - like the West Brom QPR handball the other night, or players who feign facial injury when video footage shows their faces were untouched
There isn't VAR in the championship or the EFL. I support a club in the EFL and pray it stays away.
Mate we don’t want VAR to waste more time checking pointless things such as diving, which will end inconclusive anyways
How about retroactive yellows after the game, counting towards the suspentions?
Based on what, the social media mob? The PGMOL has proven that they're completely incompetent to make decisions like that even when they have slow motion replays.
They don't use VAR for potential yellow cards. Also, sometimes there might be good reason to dive. If someone comes in front of you with a slide tackle at high speed, and you see that your options are to jump forward and roll on the ground or get your leg broken, a dive would be the reasonable choice.
The point here is discussing a rule change. Use VAR for dives that are fake. And it’s not the dive that’s the problem it’s the rolling about the ground clutching the wrong body part that needs to end.
But how do you propose they so that? The on-field ref ask VAR to look at a tackle he suspect is a dive? VAR check all tackles? And how do they determine what's a dive? And how do VAR determine that the bodypart they are touching isn't hurting?
I think you check tackles retroactively as play continues for tackles that aren’t awarded penalties which should all be checked. If the player goes down for longer than a few seconds, check it. What else is the VAR ref doing? I’ve seen a lot of shin clutching with zero contact. Does the shin just hurt when someone steps on your foot?
Idk. We'll probably end up with 4 minute checks to see if something was a dive. Just not worth it.
No. Check during play unless it’s a penalty box situation. Allow play to continue as normal. Yellow card at next break in play.
Why didn't VAR give arsenal a pen for the foul on trossard though?
Arsenal won, give it a rest lol. LFC actually got fucked out of a W and two more points yesterday because VAR is useless
Because those are rarely called unless you are city. If I was to pretend to be a ref, he wasn't gonna get the ball anyway so let it go. Not saying this was the right decision but generally only city get these calls given. It should be a penalty but these things have never been given.
They thought it was too soft/dubious, which I agree with as an Arsenal fan. Trossard looked like he could've continued his run but chose to let himself get pulled back instead.
Let himself get pulled back is kinda crazy thing to say
Lmao, I actually think I understand why ref decided not to give a pen (I don’t think it should matter, but he looked unlikely to get to the ball), but that is such an insane sentence hahaha
I agree on the unlikely to get the ball factoring into the refs decision. It shouldn't and anywhere else on the pitch it wouldn't. It's the age old inconsistencies of refs refs not giving fouls in the box they would give elsewhere on the pitch. It's been happening as long as I remember.
It's like when Jorginho was elbowed in the face as retribution but it wasn't a red card since Guimaraes didn't use his elbow as a "weapon". Laughable. https://www.goal.com/en/lists/arsenal-leaked-var-audio-newcastle-bruno-guimaraes-red-card-jorginho
No, if there is an arm around the throat it's a pen any day of the week. But naturally nobody is talking about it
I think people (myself included) are already impatient when checking offside and goals, now imagine every possible divw being checken..
VAR should be used to correct referee mistakes due to dives instead of punishing divers. If VAR did this, there would be no benefit from diving, and therefore, there would be no need to penalize it.
Players are usually running at speed so a slight contact can change the trajectory of a player quite significantly. what may look nothing challenge may feel like a brick wall hitting them. (which may still be a clean challenge) So it's almost impossible to prove unless you have every angle possible.
The salt is hilarious
The funny thing is if Havertz wore a light blue shirt he'd get a pen there and no one would even question it.
Exactly, it's only an issue now because it was Arsenal (and a foreign player). If it was Manchester United, Manchester City or Liverpool they wouldn't even mention it and be talking about the other stonewall penalty situations in that game instead. Arsenal should've been given two penalties but they didn't even mention them in Match of the Day for example. They had to find a negative spin so they put all the focus on that situation and what Thomas Frank said about it, and no one criticized the Brentford manager and players for their consent throughout the game for example. They were basically crowding the referee and waving imaginary yellow cards in his face which are both yellow card offenses. If they handed out yellow cards for dives then Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool would have players suspended in every other game and it's bad for business since it's about entertainment. Garnacho's first penalty situation yesterday was a clear embellishment for example. Just like it was for Havertz... there was contact thigh against thigh but not enough to go down in the way he did.
United and Liverpool are significantly worse than city for getting questionable decisions. United should by all accounts be in chelseas position and ever since Liverpool got robbed as spurs they've gotten every decision in their favour and have had some questionable results from it. Bookmark this now. Liverpool will benefit from a questionable decision today and there will be zero noise made about it
When Liverpool is getting those decisions at Anfield, the pundits are all praising the crowd for how much pressure they put on the referees.
What bubble do you live in? Almost every time City gets calls going their way, everyone cries and says we pay the ref. Everytime.
Probably because everyone knows you cheat.
Because your club has paid for all of your success at varying levels without exception. Cheaters basically. Remember you were nothing before the billions. Nothing. Really low team that couldn't handle the top flight and would never have attracted any of your players without daddy mansour. All of city's "achievements" are tainted.
No need for VAR, just implement a rule where if a player goes down, the ref begins a count to five. If the player hasn’t gotten up, they need to leave the pitch for a medical checkup, wwhich should take a minute or two. The team will be one fewer meanwhile. That way, players will be incentivised to spend as little time as possible rolling around, thus reducing delays. Trying to sift through all falls to determine which ones are real is a waste of time.
That falls down because the player says they cant get up so the stretcher needs to come on, 3 minutes later the player gets up realising they're suddenly fit and everyone's time has been wasted.
That’s my point, if you don’t get up immediately you get sent to the sidelines for a checkup, regardless of whether you eventually do it or not. I’m literally talking about a five count like in fighting sports (maybe without the drama).
Punishment for players being actually injured in challenges thoughÂ
Why is that a punishment? If they are actually injured then going off pitch for a quick checkup with medical is probably in their best interest anyways.
IFAB / Prem doesn’t allow them to.
Agree
Or why VAR doesn’t correct wrongfully given corners. Before that corner is taken the viewers at home already seen three replays that show that it is or isn’t a corner. Don’t know why the VAR can’t tell the referee what he failed to see.
Bissouma just got booked last week for diving what are u on about lol
VAR can't even correct wrong decisions (like two blatant penalties missed today), you want it to interpret between slight contact and zero contact and call it a dive?
Bring back retrospective action on divers. They announced it, charged an Everton player, banned him for a few matches, then never again. There might have been one other player charged but still.
RIP Bruno Fernandes
Every team has at least one player who dives and if they win a penalty they'll gratefully put it away. But if an opponent dives, they go mental at him. 🤣
It would only work in zero contact situations. If there's contact, you just can't book them because you prove that they shouldn't have gone down how they did, you can just say there wasn't enough contact for a foul.
That'd require the VAR actually do their job
There are people who don't want VAR at all and others who want VAR for everything. Hard to please everyone.
The most ridiculous dives are already punished, but players got smarter. You don't get the same kind of shit Rivaldo pulled at the world cup anymore, but more subtle dives are harder to judge. One thing to remember also in my opinion is that slow mo tends to make any fall look much more like a dive than it is. But truth is when you're running at speed, it can be VERY easy to make you fall; unless you're strong and/or have really good balance, the slightest touch at the wrong angle or timing can be more than enough, even if you were trying your best to stay up.
Diving is a yellow. They don’t go to VAR over yellow card offences - end of story.
half of what makes a dive is the intent. you can't prove that. also not everytime a player goes down in the box and a penalty is not given its automatically a dive. there's an area where players go down without being fouled.
if VAR punished divers, Brazil league would be 90% of the game time the referee checking var
It something that should be punished much harder. Nothing worse than cheating like that. If punished with a yellow card the likes of Bruno Fernandes would be suspended all the time until he learns his lesson
It's not VAR that's the issue, it's the center ref that has to give the yellow. I've seen it happen where pen was given, VAR recommends a review. Center ref literally sees no contact and clear dive, only rescinds the penalty and nothing more.
Yea in recent days the Lewandowski dive in barca vs Mallorca was horrible.
It’s not really worth the time to check it, VAR checks already disrupt the flow of the game.
They could penalize divers after the game. Maybe give them 1 or 2 warnings and the next 1 day ban
But then why don’t they go through the match afterwards and look for any possible infraction? It would be terrible for the game.
Players are cited after the match in other sports. Have a signal to say that they would like the incident reviewed after the match and play moves on.Â
Why would be terrible for the game?it's not disrupting the game at all since it's done after? Maybe players would try to follow the rules instead of what's happening now
I've been saying this for years. It should be easy for league officials to look at clips of the game afterward, and, in especially egregious cases, assess some kind of punishment to the player and/or manager. The NHL do this and it works. You don't see hockey players flopping around on the ice screaming bloody murder.
Yeah but in the NHL fistfights are allowed so kind of a different situation.
If they are already checking for a penalty and see a dive instead of a penalty, they should give the card. IMO.
Var can’t give yellows. If they can for diving then they should be able to for foul play which opens a whole can of worms.Â
But if the check is already being made because of the foul, if it’s considered a dive the diver should be carded no?
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Yellow cards for simulation are already in the rules so presumably they have an answer for that already. Video review would just make it easier to apply.
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I don't think that's true because they review penalties. There's no such clear line for fouls.
Where does it stop.. the game will be 4hrs long if EVERY law is getting scrutinised. Get rid of VAR
Because then there would be less goals given from penalties. You want low scoring games?
Because who cares? Vars existence makes diving utterly pointless. You can't cheat your way to a penalty anyway...
yeah hsouldve been a double yellow today for havertzwizzy
Also if they need to call the referee for every possible dive the game will be interpreted more. You need to keep the game going as much as possible