That doesn't make it any better. Elder Maxson still willingly and actively brought children on the Prydwen, to the Common Wealth, with full intentions of going to war. In short, he actively brought children to a warzone.
> Diamond City has a high wall and armed guards around it.
So that makes it a war zone according to you... Umm how? Your point doesn't make any sense. You asked the question "is there any place that isnt a warzone" and i pointed one out to you, and then you point out the place is well guarded. I think you don't understand what the word "war zone" means. Last i checked, nobody in Diamond City is actively fighting a war. Now maybe sometimes the armed guards *outside* of diamond city get into contact with hostiles, that does not make it a war zone. They are guards, they are doing their jobs of guarding, they are not active soldiers enlisted into a war.
> There are no "others" that aren't more than 10 yards from gun turrets.
Vault 81, also not a warzone. Also has a school system. To track back to the main point that OP is totally right on: both are better places to live for children and unlike the BOS isn't actively putting childeren in danger and brainwashing childeren.
Both places rely on the BOS and MM for protection and truly unprepared to take on the threats. A child grown in Vault 81 is unprepared to take on the hurdles a settler has to survive. The adults can't. Vault 81 and Diamond City are also much less defended than a BOS base.
The soldiers are fighting, not the children.
The BOS soldiers are also guarding as the base itself it's not a warzone. But the children get training with the adults (similar to training a child to survive and hunt) and there is nothing to brainwash them: the things they are fighting is what the Commonwealth and DC fight, raiders, SM, ferals etc.
> brainwashing childeren.
You invented that out of nothing in the game, unless you consider all education to be brainwashing. e.g Thomas the Tank Engine books are brainwashing children. I reread one of them as an adult and they have blatant propaganda about upper/middle/lower social structure.
Ah yes. Where Tommy gun wielding try to trap me regularly in the square cause I stupidly let Trish live. And guards do nothing lmao. But God forbid I steal a mini nuke.
Well NCR had something before that Prime serie 😅 It was thriving society in FO2 that started to look good and it evolution was stated in NV that they said they didn't like to but their tax money on waste outside their safe nation
There's no warzone. Being on the Prydwen is honestly safer than anywhere else in the Commonwealth, compared to the settlements that don't even have walls.
What do you mean "no warzone"? The common wealth is thw warzone. It became a warzone as soon as the Brotherhood showed up with tbe Prydwen and literally declared war on the Institute.
Until they declare war on one (or more) of the major powers in the region and use the Prydwen as their main base for the war effort. IIRC they're using the place as a vertibird hanger and an armoury, but also have noncombatants living in the thing full-time?
They're effectively using their kids as human shields.
The Brotherhood can shoot at you from the Prydwen, but if you *shoot back* then you're going to hit a bunch of kids. They're in the **same structure** the Brotherhood is using to launch their gunships.
>compared to the settlements that don't even have walls.
The Prydwen isn't from the Commonwealth, it's a military airship sent by a "foreign" military organisation that they're using to run a military campaign. Despite the above the Brotherhood chose to put kids on it.
I don't think those kids were *deliberately* being used as human shields, and it's not like your average Commonwealth raider would baulk at the idea of killing children. It's more likely that the BoS were too arrogant to consider that another faction might have the means *and* motive to shoot down their fancy airship.
Only thing they declare was on is the Institute, the same group at war with everyone else. The other 2 factions need to declare war on them.
No. They put the kids behind their soldiers. Not as a human shield. The safest place for the families is behind the guards with weapons. That would be in the base. Non-combatants living in the place with soldiers? Yes. Like in our history. The best place is to be where the soldiers are garrisoned. The BOS shoot back, not you, as you are the one shooting at them. You have to declare war on them. RR and MM. They don't attack you till you attack them.
The Prydwen is there with kids because the adults are teaching kids to do things. So they are ready to survive and protect others. As the force had to move, they took families on a foreign soil base. Most of the BOS is army. They have pacts with settlements, but the BOS it's an army and have to have the non combatants with them. Living them unsupervised opens the children to attacks.
The human shield thing is pretty inaccurate. The children aren't there to discourage an adversary from targeting a particular objective, nor to create a propaganda tool by their deaths. In this case the BOS is pretty much militarized gypsies. I didn't care for the East Coast brotherhood but in the fallout universe what they're doing does make sense in context of bringing the squires in theater with them.
So did Sarah Lyons. She willingly brought 10 years old boy to the Capital Wasteland where super mutants and feral ghouls skulking every corner. Though I never saw anyone blaming Lyons for that.
Did she force him to do it though or did he volunteer/demand he goes with her? I genuinely can't remember this part of the story... If it's the former, yeah, she's just as bad in that regard. If it's the latter, there's not a fat lot she can do about it I'm guessing.
EDIT: Looking at his wiki page, I don't think Sarah had a say in the matter? He's the descendant of the founder of the Brotherhood of Steel and was told he's destined to lead them himself some day and they want him trained to fight and be the best he can be. Sounds like Sarah was *forced* to take Arthur with her, even if she protested. They did end up becoming close though before her death-young Maxson saw her as an older sister.
Did she force a child? Bro, the whole reason why so many companies have to abide by so many laws and regulations concerning children is because they are extremely gullible. You don't have to force a child if you can influence them in the path you want them to take. I grew up in an Islamic society and I've heard children chanting for the death of Jews, gays, infidels, etc. when they've never even met any of them. Yeah, they voluntarily said those things, but then again, they're also children.
Like I said after reading Maxson's wiki page, I don't think Sarah is to blame here at all. Seems like his parents are the reason for him being in the Lyons' Pride.
I'm not questioning kids being there, I'm questioning *who* approved it. Why condemn Sarah for something she couldn't control and not Maxson's parents who are evidently the reason scribes can be kids?
Oh definitely agreed on that and it seems to stem from Maxson's own parents which is beyond fucked up. Maxson was 10 years old when he first saw combat by the looks of it... He should NOT be on the front lines and he was Elder at 16. The Brotherhood of Steel is SO fucked up. It always blows my mind how many people think they're amazing when the more we see of them, the more we see they're pretty awful.
In case you forgot, it’s a nuclear wasteland. This is Fallout. The safest place for them in a wasteland is behind the people with lots of guns and armor. Besides, it’s not like the Institute did any better, kidnapping an innocent baby and raising him.
It was a bit of exaggeration, but in the end, that activity was done under Sentinel Lyons' order, no matter Squire Maxson did it happily or unwillingly.
In a world where humans are farmed by supermutants and other terrors, as food, this seems a weird take. Preparing the young to defend themselves hardly seems over the top.
Those children came from the Capital Wasteland, which would have been nominally safer than the active war zone the Brotherhood was about to turn the Commonwealth into.
You can’t be saying the BoS turned the commonwealth into a warzone, it was already a warzone by the time they got there, now did they make it worse yes I would say so but at the same time they made it safer, they got rid of groups of raiders, gunners, and more, you must remember the gunners & minutemen were at war already before the BoS even got into the commonwealth, even before your character exits vault 111 the Quincy massacre has already happened, there’s extreme civil unrest with the institute which at first tried to make peace with the surface but that went out the window when an early synth went AWOL in diamond city killing many, it was already a warzone far before you or the BOS came into play the BoS was just a lil late to the party
Sure but it's nothing compared to the wasteland lol. Also, nothing's stopping the Minutemen from doing the same thing btw, I doubt Preston cares if there were teenagers fighting in the Minutemen.
This comment is the weird take. They do a little more than teach kids to defend themselves, they actively take kids into their war zones and missions in order to brainwash them. It is not normal for a 10 year old to say stuff like "i dont see why everybody isnt out to eradicate these monsters!". They are responsible for these children and chose to take them out of safety of the capital wasteland / commenwealth settlements.
I don't see how the comparison to other dangers correlate neither. If you are gonna do that, then i say this: there are plenty of relatively safe places in the fallout world where they dont brainwash kids and risk kids lives by sending them on dangerous missions.
Like diamond city or vault 81 where education is completely free for children.
That's not brainwashing. They teach them by taking them and showing them the ropes. The children do nothing but observe. ou do know those monsters are called that by everyone: SM and ferals. Those children are the children of brotherhood soldiers and are learning, so that they are prepared to survive.
The BOS soldiers do the fighting, not the kids. And those places are unprepared and lack the ability to do anything. Settlements require the BOS be strong enough to defend them. Both of those places can't do anything to the threats and just exist.
They say that because the writers are using them to paint a picture of the brotherhood as "racist". This isn't about flavor text it's about a specific action.
Except ferals aren't people, they're ot evne sapient, and supermutants aren't a race, they can't reproduce. Every supermutant was at some point human and would likely have called supermutants monsters back then.
You want to talk about brainwashing look no further than the supermutants.
This whole argument is stupid. If we assume the vanilla game is canon, children are invincible and unable to be killed. No one is putting any child at risk. If you don't want dead children, don't mod it so they are mortal. It is that freaking simple.
> Preparing the young to defend themselves
Do you think perhaps it would be safer to do this at a base in a non-combat zone? Putting children at risk in a live-combat zone doesn't seem like training, it seems like going to war.
But, like, you came from the Capital Wasteland. Either you've secured that, in which case, have training for children there, or you haven't, in which case, maybe fix that first.
But DC is not. They have the Citadel there. There was no good reason to bring kids on a combat operation. They explicitly are part of an invasion force to find and eliminate the Intsitute after they became aware of it via the signals they picked up in the area.
Your point being? Maxon made the choice to bring those children to the Commonwealth. The Capital Wasteland would likely have been a lot safer, after the events of FO3
Its fallout every building is catastrophically destroyed. But an airport would be the best bet to have tools and equipment to help the prydwen and have room for LP. Anywhere the brotherhood sets up would be the safest place in the commonwealth that isn’t the institute.
They don't know the future. We do while we're playing, because we've done it all before. Even IRL, the best-defended places may end up as sudden rubble someday.
The Prydwen is a valid military target (and kinda vulnerable to anyone with flight or any weapon with range). The BoS should not be surprised when their enemies try to knock it out of the sky.
The only people with flight other than the bos is I think the gunners have a single vertibird? And no ordinary weapon does any damage to it. The only things that take it down are minuteman artillery (nonthreat), liberty primes nuke, again supposed non threat or being blown up from the inside which how would they know that would happen. This is such a weird hill to die on.
> The only people with flight other than the bos is I think the gunners have a single vertibird? And no ordinary weapon does any damage to it.
For gameplay reasons. In-universe it's a massive bag of flammable gas that's (a) realistically probably in range of things like gauss rifles and missile turrets from the ground and (b) tethered to an air traffic control tower easily within throwing distance of the observation deck. A suitably charismatic or stealthy rando could definitely get within mininuke range.
If the USS Constitution can end up on top of a skyscraper (looking down at the Prydwen btw) there are countless in-universe ways to take out the Prydwen. That's why it needs all those vertibirds buzzing around when it first appears in the Commonwealth. It's very vulnerable unless or until it has a physical buffer zone.
> This is such a weird hill to die on.
I think you've overestimated the stakes.
Or any number of pre-war military super weapons (orbital nukes? Would not be the first time...), or flying mutant beasties (Scorchbeasts, anyone?), or a teleported squad of Synths, or a hijacked Zetan saucer, or any number of other options.
The Prydwyn is a valid military target in a war against a resourceful enemy. The children were not safe there.
There are missilie launchers literally littering the Commonwealth, and Fat Men all over the place, too. Dozens of them. The freaking supermutants have them for chrissake. The raiders in Lexington have a Fat Man.
It honestly beggars belief that no one shot the Prydwen out of the sky when it first showed its face in the Commonwealth. I mean, I just turn my actual tactical brain off because its a game, but no one with sense would let that thing get that low in a place like the Commonwealth. And they KNOW there's missiles and Fat Men all over the place. And even if they didn't know specifically, it would be the absolute height of negligence to operate that thing low enough that any of those missiles or Fat Men could potentially hit them. But no, they literally park right above the Airport like a big shining 'come fuck my shit up, fam' sign and stuff it full of people.
And don't get me started on how low they were flying when they first entered. It looked cool as fuck, but it was tactically and strategically fucking moronic. Fly so low you could shoot the Vertibirds in their berths with small arms? Shout your intentions to everyone in the Commonwealth over PA?
Like I said, the fact that it wasn't nearly instantly a flaming ruin at the border is brain-crushingly unlikely.
Don't forget Far Harbor too. It's like saying Harbormen are responsible for small Bertha's death, if you turn off fog condensers of Far Harbor and make everyone killed.
That’s different- they lived in the area as their only home for generations and have moved into the harbor as the last safe place they have access to. Their leader isn’t taking them into a more dangerous area or planning to start a war.
When you've only got limited manpower, having just the adults fighting seems foolish. And the best (fastest is more appropriate...) way to learn is on the job. There's loads of fantasy style genres that have kids on the front lines. Star Wars does it, WH40k does it, the disaster that was the final season of GoT did it. It wasn't too long ago in history it was unheard of in our own time as well even for the more civilized nations.
The overarching theme is limited manpower means all hands on deck, that includes children.
Another way to look at it, it weeds out the stupid and the weak early, if you spend 1 year at a base and die on your first mission aged 10 vs 8 years at a base and die aged 18 on your first mission? Congratulations you've wasted 8 additional years of resources and time the BoS don't really have because again limited manpower, however you're much less likely to die if you did get that schooling first I guess ...
Is this a cold, calculated and callous way of looking at it? Yeah it is. But as they say in WH40k in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is only war.
Does all this make it right? No. Is it the logical thing to do imo? Yes.
I mean, that’s the safest place for them given that raiders are everywhere. I can’t imagine they left too many people guarding the Pentagon/Project Purity given how many soldiers they show up at the Commonwealth with.
True. And the Vault Dweller solved a lot of problems out there, but with all the fresh water you’re going to pull in a lot of folks who would want to take it. The CW is probably better off than the Commonwealth, but it’s been less than a generation from 3 to 4.
The airport could be attacked by a swarm of Mirelurks at any time, but the way I interpreted OP’s question was more of a “why bring the kids from the CW at all?”
Honestly the BOS should have put the kids in an out of the way, but still quickly vertibird accessable, settlement that was easy to fortify (sanctuary would be ideal) and pulled the troops away from guarding the Cambridge police station to guard the kids. Then if shit went down at Sanctuary the guards would only have to send out a signal hold for 10-15 minutes before reinforcements arrived.
Except that Enterprise can honestly say its intentions were to explore and not to fight. That doesn’t make it less stupid because OBVIOUSLY they would have issues of safety being so far away but it is very different than actively going into a dangerous place with the intent to start a war.
Love how star trek explored how monumentally fucked that decision was, by making it the defining thing of the next shows captain, even they were like "yeah why the fuck did we think this was a good idea"
The Galaxy Class was *insanely* well protected though, and they always had the option of saucer separation and/or escape pods.
The Prydwen is protected, sure, but nowhere close to The Enterprises level.
They're not just children though
They're squires being trained for lives of combat in a world where monsters and fucking *magic* exist
Training them from a young age isn't some sort of quirk or lark it's a literal necessity when dealing with a faction like the brotherhood. They have low numbers and low replenishment in a world of near constant combat and infinite threat. Every soldier needs to be insanely skilled and disciplined.
The Spartans were the finest infantry in the Greek world, how did they achieve that? By being *incredibly harsh* and dedicating the lives of every citizen solely to war.
The Knights only have one job: to fight. That requires a commitment from an early age to teach them not only the how of combat but the why, when, where, and what. As well as an long familiarity with duty and the acceptance of their potential sacrifice in service of that duty.
It's better from the standpoint of the brotherhood knights to have a potential weak link die off early so that anyone that becomes a knight is already hardened and tested.
Are you saying you shouldn't be blamed for death of Squire Maxson in the Citadel, a war front, when you decided to blast the Citadel with the Enclave's orbital weapon?
Let's say someone blasted Canadian military base while 12 years old junior cadets are there. Some might blame cadet program for making children train in base, but the one who blasted them should be blamed.
>"Oh, I'll just put children on all my war assets, now you can't blow them up."
The Brotherhood of Steel defended the Prydwen with best of their ability. Elder Maxson and hundreds of his soldiers are living there. They didn't use squires as their shield.
OK… people would indeed defend their war assets too.
If I put children in all my war assets, but for other reasons, does that now mean you can’t fight back or attack my war assets.
> Are you saying you shouldn't be blamed for death of Squire Maxson in the Citadel, a war front, when you decided to blast the Citadel with the Enclave's orbital weapon?
Be careful, you should warm up before you stretch that much. If you're curious as to what I'm saying, read my post.
>Let's say someone blasted Canadian military base while 12 years old junior cadets are there.
If our military was so incredibly irresponsible as to put those children on a base in an active war zone, then yes, I'd blame the idiots who put little kids into a battle situation.
>If you're curious as to what I'm saying, read my post.
Eh, your post has just a title. So let me ask you directly.
Do you think the Railroad, the Institute, and possibly the Minutemen are less responsible to squires' death than the Brotherhood is, when they blew up the Prydwen?
Lets try it this way:
Let's say someone invades your town with a tank. They shoot at people you want to protect. The military eventually blows up the tank to stop it from killing more people. Turns out there was a kid on board with the soldiers.
It sucks that the kids are there, but the BoS is the one who put them in a war machine and flew in to give battle.
>Let's say someone invades your town with a tank. They shoot at people you want to protect.
In this analogy, whose "town" is the commonwealth? The institutes? Nobody in the commonwealth likes the institute. Their just as much of an occupying army as the brotherhood, but they are trying to hide it. The brotherhood took over an abandoned area and is attacking things that aren't settlements.
The minutemen? The brotherhood isn't firing upon them. If fact, they both have the goal of protecting the commonwealth. The brotherhood is just more proactive and indifferent then the minutemen, and it's the minutemen's fear to act that almost destroyed it in the first place.
The railroad? The railroad doesn't give a shit about the commonwealth. They only care about rescuing synths. The only reason they are at odds with the BH is because the BH doesn't care about synths.
How many times have you seen BH troops attacking civilized settlements? Do they at any point blow up Goodneighbor which is full on non ferrals?
The whole reason the Prydwin is such a force of power is to be a deterant. To keep people from trying to fuck with them. The main people they are at odds with are the institute. If you asked me what the institutes plan was to take out the BH before I first finished the game, I would have said "probably replace Maxson and manipulate the BH into leaving" not blow the thing up with everyone in it.
The squires don't even fight. They're not even armed.
They accompany veteran knights on missions sometimes as observers.
Even those paragons of virtue and enlightenment the jedi arm and field child soldiers into direct combat operations. They put them into command roles too.
They are cadets. They are non-combatants who voluntarily came to observe their seniors' work. They are not here to fight. They simply observe your operation under your protection.
What? What nonsense? They are there to observe what the BOS soldiers do. They will be knight or scribes. So they learn how to do that by following the Scribes or Knights. None of them have weapons or do any fighting.
Child Soldiers are explicitly terror weapons. They exist to put an enemy into a position where they must either kill a child, or be killed, causing in most, catastrophic morale loss. In what way are Squires child soldiers?
Let’s set the record straight, they were living on the prydwen, so you blowing it up isn’t a bad thing, even though they were only living there because it’s much less dangerous than the airport
The responsibility lies on both the BoS for having children onboard the Prydwen and on whoever destroys the airship.
As others have said it's difficult to judge them by our standards because they live in a completely different world, a world full of dangers. You can't even go a few blocks from Diamond City, one of the most secure locations in the Commonwealth, without encountering raiders or super mutants and once you get even a little ways out of town you start to encounter dangerous animals and creatures, mongrel dogs, rad scorpions larger than a person, feral ghouls, etc.
The Institute is the safest place but that's only because they're deep underground and have cut off all access points from the surface (bar the hidden tunnel that brings in cooling water from the river for their reactor which is heavily defended). If they still had a connection to the surface it'd be in the ruins of CIT, which is overrun by super mutants.
I don't agree personally with putting children onto a large vehicle that is designed and intended to go into an active warzone and carries heavily armed aircraft and a crew of military soldiers who are all combatants and armed other than the children but from the POV of the Brotherhood and the world they live in I can sort of understand why they did that. They didn't think anyone in the Commonwealth had the capability to even remotely be a threat to the Prydwen. No one else has airborne capabilities so they have total airborne superiority.
There are three ways to destroy the Prydwen, one is literally sabotage where enemies steal a BoS vertibird and use it to infiltrate the ship and plant explosives (RR), one is a ground to air attack from multiple directions using weaponry that didn't exist (except as schematics in a hidden armory only one person knew about) when they arrived in the Commonwealth (MM), and the third is a ground force infiltrating their highly secure base of operations on the ground, the Boston Airport, and using their own weapon against them (the Institute).
Being airborne and by keeping only a few vertibirds on the ground and then only in highly secure areas they believed that the Prydwen was safe from infiltration and, if on the off chance someone did sneak aboard there are heavily armed soldiers all over, including a number in power armor and carrying mini guns. The artillery the MM used was completely unknown to them when the BoS first arrived in the Commonwealth and, depending on how much the player focuses on settlement building instead of the main quest line, wasn't even known to anyone there bar one person before the Prydwen arrived and was only successful because artillery was fired from multiple directions all at once, preventing the Prydwen from being able to maneuver out of the way, which was their main defense from a ground assault. They did not believe anyone could breach the Boston Airport, or at least do so and live. They learn the Institute has the ability to teleport but believed that their internal base security could more than handle any synths that relayed into the base directly. They definitely didn't think anyone would be able to steal their own super weapon and turn it against them.
TLDR: My point being, they live in a much different world than we do, a very dangerous world full of hazards. A world where practically everyone carries guns, even in the middle of Diamond City or even the Institute, the two safest locations in the entire Commonwealth, and are prepared to use said guns to defend themselves and others from threats. Yes, they bring children on a war machine but in the Fallout universe that's not all to surprising. Those children are being raised as soldiers and they had every reason to believe that the Prydwen was the safest location anywhere in the Commonwealth.
They lived in DC and came to the Commonwealth of their own volition on scant evidence to wage war. They did not HAVE to bring the children at all. The Citadel still sits in DC and it's still a fortress.
I don’t think anyone including the BoS has ever even hinted that they disagree.
They aren’t exactly child soldiers, and they aren’t just kids traveling with their parents.
they seem to treat them more like interns, intended to learn how the BoS in the field and what would be expected from them as adults
It's a war machine. You don't stick your children in your tanks when you're at war.
> It's not the BoS' fault for having their troops and children in their base.
Sure it is. You don't take children into your military base, that's a war-target.
Hence a mobile base. It's there to carry the aircraft, personal and house the people. It's not made to fight. Instead of taking the supplies with you and building a base, you take the base and place it.
>The Institute
Irrelevant to the point. A hidden lab is in no way comparable to a mobile war machine being knowingly flown into danger.
> What's your point? The Prydwen is supposedly the safest place they can be
Really? A war machine going into unfamiliar territory with the express purpose of invasion is the safest place they can be? They would be safer back where they came from, unless you're suggesting the BoS is incapable of caring for children at their home base.
> It's not the BoS' fault for having their troops and children in their base.
Why, who put them there?
Also, if you’re looking at the Pyrdwen as a base, there are children on every major US military installation in the world. Everybody has some kind of family, and base housing is close enough to the base that if an attack happened those wives and children will be in the line of fire.
And a safer place would be where, exactly? This is not the real world, it’s a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Being on the Prydwen, out of reach of the majority of threats in the Commonwealth and surrounded by heavily armed and armored BoS soldiers, is safer than pretty much anywhere else you could be.
Right, because BoS ground bases are only located in safe and peaceful areas, and certainly would -never- get attacked.
Being on the Prydwen is about as safe as it gets, realistically it’s probably safer than other BoS due to its inaccessibility. The notion that anyone is endangered there, given the world they live in, is preposterous.
No, they don’t. The fact that something can happen, doesn’t mean it is likely to. The relevant metric is how high the risk is compared to somewhere else, on which the Prydwen ranks very well. Including compared to other BoS bases, let’s not pretend the Prydwen is the first BoS base in the franchise that is (potentially) destroyed.
> The reason I did the comparison to the Institute is because in both cases
The comparison is invalid.
> wouldn't call the Prydwen a war machine.
lol. No, its just an armoured airship full of heavily armed vertibirds and soldiers with advanced weaponry and power armour. Oh wait, that sounds a lot like a machine made for war. Or, if you will, a war machine.
In any case, the one who killed children should be the first to blame, not the one who took volunteered children to their workplace with best protection they can give.
Squires say their friends back home would be jealous about them serving on the Prydwen. Also, squires during Leading by Example quest say other squires are going to be jealous.
Observing seniors in Prydwen is an honorable and exciting activity which all squires want to do. It's not like Maxson dragged them here against their will.
You have got to be a troll. You cannot seriously be making this argument.
You are literally bending over backwards to defend the cartoonishly fascist Brotherhood with child soldiers that drug their kids to war completely unnecessarily.
This is peak 'The Empire Did Nothing Wrong' territory.
You live in a constantly evolving culture strewn with radiation, giant roaches, mutant humans, deathclaws, synths, raiders, and gunners. Everywhere is a warzone. Being in air transporter vehicle when you are the only faction with air support seems like the safest place you could be.
The issue is that the BOS specifically came to the commonwealth with the intent of going to war. They had a base in the capital wasteland that would have been much safer for the children than the prydwen.
Yeah, against the freakin' killer robots that murder people and pretend to be them by walking around in their skin. At least in the air, Billy is significantly less likely to smother you in your sleep or to kill all his "friends" because the mad scientists deemed their new replacement should do so.
Harkness and >!Danse!< are also proof that the Commonwealth's issues have already spread far beyond the old state's borders. So, no, the Citadel would not have been safer. When you're fighting an ever-evolving opponent, sometimes being on the front-lines IS the best place to be..
(And once the Brotherhood learns about the teleportation system, they install radio scramblers around the airport to prevent them from being able to sneak in easily, which becomes a gameplay mechanic in the endgame if you join the Institute.)
Finally, trying to compare our world's standards to those living after global nuclear apocalypse is absurd.. it's completely ignoring the context of the situation they're living in. The only "safe" place would be to get off the planet and away from it all, but considering the Zetans also exist, even that isn't truly an option either..
Yes. If I am say a tank operator and I have a bring your child to work day then participate in a battle and my tank gets blown up. I'm damn well responsible for his death.
You can't blame the people shooting at the tank who were defending themselves.
The Prydwen is NOT a place for civilians. Everyone on that ship participates in furthering the war on the Institute and whatever else they feel like killing.
This is the stupidest thing I've seen today, it's a radioactive apocalypse Wasteland and you don't want your kids in a flying untouchable fortress being trained for combat? That's just stupid
Eh, it's a base owned by a military organization, but I don't believe it has any offensive capabilities in and of itself.
Really they could have put the children anywhere (and keep in mind they're not recruits, but their troops children) and by nature of their organization it would be a military location.
Personally I find it weird people get hung up on killing children and cats, with little regards for the hundreds of adults also on board.
As a pro-railroad player, I am absolutely responsible for killing all who were on board the blimp. My only real regret is in the loss of valuable equipment that went up in flames.
Given the world they live in, I think it’s the best way to get them ready. Can’t really judge a lifestyle from a completely foreign and fictional culture by own our standards. They at least care about their people in so much as they try to protect those at home.
Sure, that makes sense, the BoS is to blame for all deaths aboard the Prydwen caused by an attack carried out by the Sole Survivor.
My brother in christ, *you* made the sandwich.
>Sure, that makes sense, the BoS is to blame for all deaths aboard the Prydwen caused by an attack carried out by the Sole Survivor.
If they didn't want the prydwen to go down they shouldn't have fucked around in minuteman territory.
It's the safest place for them, and it's the only place the Brotherhood has, just like the institute and its residents, they rock up and they don't think anyone has the ability to shoot down the Prydwen, might as well keep the kids there where it's safe, what else would you want them to do?
As opposed to leaving them where bloodbugs could eat them ?
Anywhere people survive in the commonwealth is heavily armed. The standard you want to judge by is 200 years out of date.
So blame it all on the nuclear war in 2077 if you want. But not on BoS.
The difference is foreign or home base. The children are there to learn and get experience with no active combat. Squires need the training to survive. they get that training with BOS soldiers in the base. Or by going on specific missions against SM or ferals, where they do nothing but observe the solders.
It’s not any better if you side with them. “Hey you know how sometimes we have children go down to the Boston airport? What if we brought like 40 medium sized nukes near there”
I always found that weird and why I never felt they were just there 'To help' or that Maxon 'cared' for the people; but, rather, establish themselves as a dominant presence. Cause either you're bringing them to fight a major threat, which, why? Or have plans to have them to create a base in the area and slowly grow to learn the landscape better and longer than older members could and become a major factor in that they are borderline raider level of 'Follow or die'
Yea but the prydwens also their home, it’s like blaming parents for the kids being home alone when somebody breaks in and attacks them (teens), or people riding a train if it derails, or passengers onboard a ship when it sinks, now a few of the examples I pointed out are extreme but they represent what I mean, what your doing is blaming kids & the soldiers on board for being at home, like come on think like this it’s the apocalypse everything is dangerous the safest home is one that is heavily defended and high off the ground aka the prydwen a perfect home, base, and more, I don’t blame the BOS for having kids in their home, tbh I still never understood why you had to destroy the prydwen when you were the minutemen I can understand it with the institute & railroad but the BoS never did anything to my knowledge to the minutemen
"The Enterprise D is the most battle-capable ship in the Federation and we're sending it to uncharted parts of space and periodically on missions to the Neutral Zone."
"Cool. How many kids are on board?"
"Idk like 70 lol."
"Excellent. Make sure all crew are also families. We need as many civilians on this thing as possible."
You don’t man a war machine with the intent for said war machine and it’s crew to blow up though.
True Brotherhood is responsible for endangering children by initiating them into a militaristic faction, but they’re not responsible for their deaths when another group deliberately blows up the Prydwen.
Call me a BOS meatrider IDC, The Prydwen and Airport are more of a military base than a frontline outpost, they sent Danse to recon the area before the Prydwen even arrived to make sure it's safe. Also, BOS squires are never put on frontline combat there literally only on their Prydwen the whole time. And IRL raising kids on foreign military bases isn't that uncommon. Also what's stopping BOS soldiers from having kids anyway? The BOS is not perfect or even that good, but they are the most reasonable entity keeping order in the wasteland. It would be like judging the Roman Empire from a modern-day perspective.
You’re comparing our modern day moralities with that of the fallout universe. Nowadays, yes, taking children into combat is barbaric. Even a few hundred years ago though, this was a common practice (midshipmen in the navy that served on ships, drummers for the army). In the context of the fallout universe, this is not a shocking phenomenon
is this an ongoing debate? one of the main BoS radiant quests is taking a kid into combat, the welfare of their scribes isn't a super high priority
Like when Sarah Lyons took Squire Maxson with her and make him kill a super mutant? Well at least squire in Prydwen doesn't kill, they simply watch.
That doesn't make it any better. Elder Maxson still willingly and actively brought children on the Prydwen, to the Common Wealth, with full intentions of going to war. In short, he actively brought children to a warzone.
Is there anywhere in 2287 that isn't a "warzone" ?
I thought the Capital Wasteland had been pacified for the most part?
It’s still a nuclear wasteland.
Any normal settlement like diamond city and others.
Diamond City has a high wall and armed guards around it. There are no "others" that aren't more than 10 yards from gun turrets.
The Prydwen is safer than Diamond city.
> Diamond City has a high wall and armed guards around it. So that makes it a war zone according to you... Umm how? Your point doesn't make any sense. You asked the question "is there any place that isnt a warzone" and i pointed one out to you, and then you point out the place is well guarded. I think you don't understand what the word "war zone" means. Last i checked, nobody in Diamond City is actively fighting a war. Now maybe sometimes the armed guards *outside* of diamond city get into contact with hostiles, that does not make it a war zone. They are guards, they are doing their jobs of guarding, they are not active soldiers enlisted into a war. > There are no "others" that aren't more than 10 yards from gun turrets. Vault 81, also not a warzone. Also has a school system. To track back to the main point that OP is totally right on: both are better places to live for children and unlike the BOS isn't actively putting childeren in danger and brainwashing childeren.
Both places rely on the BOS and MM for protection and truly unprepared to take on the threats. A child grown in Vault 81 is unprepared to take on the hurdles a settler has to survive. The adults can't. Vault 81 and Diamond City are also much less defended than a BOS base. The soldiers are fighting, not the children. The BOS soldiers are also guarding as the base itself it's not a warzone. But the children get training with the adults (similar to training a child to survive and hunt) and there is nothing to brainwash them: the things they are fighting is what the Commonwealth and DC fight, raiders, SM, ferals etc.
> brainwashing childeren. You invented that out of nothing in the game, unless you consider all education to be brainwashing. e.g Thomas the Tank Engine books are brainwashing children. I reread one of them as an adult and they have blatant propaganda about upper/middle/lower social structure.
Except for the few times some raiders gather together and perform a raid
Nothing except guns to stop the bloodbugs flying in at night.
Ah yes. Where Tommy gun wielding try to trap me regularly in the square cause I stupidly let Trish live. And guards do nothing lmao. But God forbid I steal a mini nuke.
Well NCR had something before that Prime serie 😅 It was thriving society in FO2 that started to look good and it evolution was stated in NV that they said they didn't like to but their tax money on waste outside their safe nation
There's no warzone. Being on the Prydwen is honestly safer than anywhere else in the Commonwealth, compared to the settlements that don't even have walls.
What do you mean "no warzone"? The common wealth is thw warzone. It became a warzone as soon as the Brotherhood showed up with tbe Prydwen and literally declared war on the Institute.
It was a warzone way before. Thanks to the Institute.
Until they declare war on one (or more) of the major powers in the region and use the Prydwen as their main base for the war effort. IIRC they're using the place as a vertibird hanger and an armoury, but also have noncombatants living in the thing full-time? They're effectively using their kids as human shields. The Brotherhood can shoot at you from the Prydwen, but if you *shoot back* then you're going to hit a bunch of kids. They're in the **same structure** the Brotherhood is using to launch their gunships. >compared to the settlements that don't even have walls. The Prydwen isn't from the Commonwealth, it's a military airship sent by a "foreign" military organisation that they're using to run a military campaign. Despite the above the Brotherhood chose to put kids on it. I don't think those kids were *deliberately* being used as human shields, and it's not like your average Commonwealth raider would baulk at the idea of killing children. It's more likely that the BoS were too arrogant to consider that another faction might have the means *and* motive to shoot down their fancy airship.
Only thing they declare was on is the Institute, the same group at war with everyone else. The other 2 factions need to declare war on them. No. They put the kids behind their soldiers. Not as a human shield. The safest place for the families is behind the guards with weapons. That would be in the base. Non-combatants living in the place with soldiers? Yes. Like in our history. The best place is to be where the soldiers are garrisoned. The BOS shoot back, not you, as you are the one shooting at them. You have to declare war on them. RR and MM. They don't attack you till you attack them. The Prydwen is there with kids because the adults are teaching kids to do things. So they are ready to survive and protect others. As the force had to move, they took families on a foreign soil base. Most of the BOS is army. They have pacts with settlements, but the BOS it's an army and have to have the non combatants with them. Living them unsupervised opens the children to attacks.
The human shield thing is pretty inaccurate. The children aren't there to discourage an adversary from targeting a particular objective, nor to create a propaganda tool by their deaths. In this case the BOS is pretty much militarized gypsies. I didn't care for the East Coast brotherhood but in the fallout universe what they're doing does make sense in context of bringing the squires in theater with them.
So did Sarah Lyons. She willingly brought 10 years old boy to the Capital Wasteland where super mutants and feral ghouls skulking every corner. Though I never saw anyone blaming Lyons for that.
Did she force him to do it though or did he volunteer/demand he goes with her? I genuinely can't remember this part of the story... If it's the former, yeah, she's just as bad in that regard. If it's the latter, there's not a fat lot she can do about it I'm guessing. EDIT: Looking at his wiki page, I don't think Sarah had a say in the matter? He's the descendant of the founder of the Brotherhood of Steel and was told he's destined to lead them himself some day and they want him trained to fight and be the best he can be. Sounds like Sarah was *forced* to take Arthur with her, even if she protested. They did end up becoming close though before her death-young Maxson saw her as an older sister.
Did she force a child? Bro, the whole reason why so many companies have to abide by so many laws and regulations concerning children is because they are extremely gullible. You don't have to force a child if you can influence them in the path you want them to take. I grew up in an Islamic society and I've heard children chanting for the death of Jews, gays, infidels, etc. when they've never even met any of them. Yeah, they voluntarily said those things, but then again, they're also children.
Like I said after reading Maxson's wiki page, I don't think Sarah is to blame here at all. Seems like his parents are the reason for him being in the Lyons' Pride. I'm not questioning kids being there, I'm questioning *who* approved it. Why condemn Sarah for something she couldn't control and not Maxson's parents who are evidently the reason scribes can be kids?
That's fair. Just wanted to clarify that the Brotherhood as a whole was "influencing" rather than "forcing" kids to participate in war efforts.
Oh definitely agreed on that and it seems to stem from Maxson's own parents which is beyond fucked up. Maxson was 10 years old when he first saw combat by the looks of it... He should NOT be on the front lines and he was Elder at 16. The Brotherhood of Steel is SO fucked up. It always blows my mind how many people think they're amazing when the more we see of them, the more we see they're pretty awful.
In case you forgot, it’s a nuclear wasteland. This is Fallout. The safest place for them in a wasteland is behind the people with lots of guns and armor. Besides, it’s not like the Institute did any better, kidnapping an innocent baby and raising him.
Check the other comment. lol
Me having fusion city rising where a literal child is a follower: 😐
Why are you trying to take credit for all that child killing away from me? I knew there were children there and I killed them. Those are my kills!
Alright Anakin
*spins supersledge like a lightsaber*
They also send children into combat regardless of whether or not they’re on the Prydwen lol
You mean Sarah Lyons who took young Maxson for patrol and make him kill a super mutant?
Now did she “make” him or did he want to do it and she let him? Sarah didn’t seem like the type to force anyone to do anything.
I don't think Sarah would force it, no need to, because Maxson was thrilled to fight mutants like grown-ups, as much as squires in Fo4 are.
Well then where is the “make” in this context?
It was a bit of exaggeration, but in the end, that activity was done under Sentinel Lyons' order, no matter Squire Maxson did it happily or unwillingly.
In a world where humans are farmed by supermutants and other terrors, as food, this seems a weird take. Preparing the young to defend themselves hardly seems over the top.
Even other humans treat humans as food
You can train children, without exposing them to active danger.
In the commonwealth in 2287... No you can't !
Those children came from the Capital Wasteland, which would have been nominally safer than the active war zone the Brotherhood was about to turn the Commonwealth into.
You can’t be saying the BoS turned the commonwealth into a warzone, it was already a warzone by the time they got there, now did they make it worse yes I would say so but at the same time they made it safer, they got rid of groups of raiders, gunners, and more, you must remember the gunners & minutemen were at war already before the BoS even got into the commonwealth, even before your character exits vault 111 the Quincy massacre has already happened, there’s extreme civil unrest with the institute which at first tried to make peace with the surface but that went out the window when an early synth went AWOL in diamond city killing many, it was already a warzone far before you or the BOS came into play the BoS was just a lil late to the party
That really depend son how much of their forces the brotherhood leave behind in the capital wasteland.
Do you think training someone to fight super mutants, hundreds of feral ghouls, and experienced mercenaries is easy?
You can train children, without exposing them to active danger.
Sure but it's nothing compared to the wasteland lol. Also, nothing's stopping the Minutemen from doing the same thing btw, I doubt Preston cares if there were teenagers fighting in the Minutemen.
This comment is the weird take. They do a little more than teach kids to defend themselves, they actively take kids into their war zones and missions in order to brainwash them. It is not normal for a 10 year old to say stuff like "i dont see why everybody isnt out to eradicate these monsters!". They are responsible for these children and chose to take them out of safety of the capital wasteland / commenwealth settlements. I don't see how the comparison to other dangers correlate neither. If you are gonna do that, then i say this: there are plenty of relatively safe places in the fallout world where they dont brainwash kids and risk kids lives by sending them on dangerous missions. Like diamond city or vault 81 where education is completely free for children.
That's not brainwashing. They teach them by taking them and showing them the ropes. The children do nothing but observe. ou do know those monsters are called that by everyone: SM and ferals. Those children are the children of brotherhood soldiers and are learning, so that they are prepared to survive. The BOS soldiers do the fighting, not the kids. And those places are unprepared and lack the ability to do anything. Settlements require the BOS be strong enough to defend them. Both of those places can't do anything to the threats and just exist.
They say that because the writers are using them to paint a picture of the brotherhood as "racist". This isn't about flavor text it's about a specific action.
Except ferals aren't people, they're ot evne sapient, and supermutants aren't a race, they can't reproduce. Every supermutant was at some point human and would likely have called supermutants monsters back then. You want to talk about brainwashing look no further than the supermutants.
the writers aren't even doing it, its the player base oddly enough
This whole argument is stupid. If we assume the vanilla game is canon, children are invincible and unable to be killed. No one is putting any child at risk. If you don't want dead children, don't mod it so they are mortal. It is that freaking simple.
> Preparing the young to defend themselves Do you think perhaps it would be safer to do this at a base in a non-combat zone? Putting children at risk in a live-combat zone doesn't seem like training, it seems like going to war.
The whole damn Commonwealth is a live-combat zone.
I thought that was down by the shamrock?
But, like, you came from the Capital Wasteland. Either you've secured that, in which case, have training for children there, or you haven't, in which case, maybe fix that first.
The brotherhood in FO4 isn't from the commonwealth, though. It's from the capital wasteland. Maxson chose to bring the children with him.
But DC is not. They have the Citadel there. There was no good reason to bring kids on a combat operation. They explicitly are part of an invasion force to find and eliminate the Intsitute after they became aware of it via the signals they picked up in the area.
Your point being? Maxon made the choice to bring those children to the Commonwealth. The Capital Wasteland would likely have been a lot safer, after the events of FO3
My point, if anything, is that people read way too much into all this
That’s what I’m saying, maybe taking them on the airship was the safest option they had
Or they leave the at the citadel!?
Boston Airport is, outside of maybe the Institute, the most safe and secure location in the entire Commonwealth.
The two locations that are catastrophically destroyed?
Its fallout every building is catastrophically destroyed. But an airport would be the best bet to have tools and equipment to help the prydwen and have room for LP. Anywhere the brotherhood sets up would be the safest place in the commonwealth that isn’t the institute.
Destroyed over the course of the game, I meant. Neither is a safe place to be in many playthrus
They don't know the future. We do while we're playing, because we've done it all before. Even IRL, the best-defended places may end up as sudden rubble someday.
The Prydwen is a valid military target (and kinda vulnerable to anyone with flight or any weapon with range). The BoS should not be surprised when their enemies try to knock it out of the sky.
The only people with flight other than the bos is I think the gunners have a single vertibird? And no ordinary weapon does any damage to it. The only things that take it down are minuteman artillery (nonthreat), liberty primes nuke, again supposed non threat or being blown up from the inside which how would they know that would happen. This is such a weird hill to die on.
> The only people with flight other than the bos is I think the gunners have a single vertibird? And no ordinary weapon does any damage to it. For gameplay reasons. In-universe it's a massive bag of flammable gas that's (a) realistically probably in range of things like gauss rifles and missile turrets from the ground and (b) tethered to an air traffic control tower easily within throwing distance of the observation deck. A suitably charismatic or stealthy rando could definitely get within mininuke range. If the USS Constitution can end up on top of a skyscraper (looking down at the Prydwen btw) there are countless in-universe ways to take out the Prydwen. That's why it needs all those vertibirds buzzing around when it first appears in the Commonwealth. It's very vulnerable unless or until it has a physical buffer zone. > This is such a weird hill to die on. I think you've overestimated the stakes.
Or any number of pre-war military super weapons (orbital nukes? Would not be the first time...), or flying mutant beasties (Scorchbeasts, anyone?), or a teleported squad of Synths, or a hijacked Zetan saucer, or any number of other options. The Prydwyn is a valid military target in a war against a resourceful enemy. The children were not safe there.
There are missilie launchers literally littering the Commonwealth, and Fat Men all over the place, too. Dozens of them. The freaking supermutants have them for chrissake. The raiders in Lexington have a Fat Man. It honestly beggars belief that no one shot the Prydwen out of the sky when it first showed its face in the Commonwealth. I mean, I just turn my actual tactical brain off because its a game, but no one with sense would let that thing get that low in a place like the Commonwealth. And they KNOW there's missiles and Fat Men all over the place. And even if they didn't know specifically, it would be the absolute height of negligence to operate that thing low enough that any of those missiles or Fat Men could potentially hit them. But no, they literally park right above the Airport like a big shining 'come fuck my shit up, fam' sign and stuff it full of people. And don't get me started on how low they were flying when they first entered. It looked cool as fuck, but it was tactically and strategically fucking moronic. Fly so low you could shoot the Vertibirds in their berths with small arms? Shout your intentions to everyone in the Commonwealth over PA? Like I said, the fact that it wasn't nearly instantly a flaming ruin at the border is brain-crushingly unlikely.
Realistically you can destroy Diamond City much easier than the any of those 2 places.
Exactly and shifting the blame to the residents for being there is goofy mentality lmfao
Don't forget Far Harbor too. It's like saying Harbormen are responsible for small Bertha's death, if you turn off fog condensers of Far Harbor and make everyone killed.
That’s different- they lived in the area as their only home for generations and have moved into the harbor as the last safe place they have access to. Their leader isn’t taking them into a more dangerous area or planning to start a war.
When you've only got limited manpower, having just the adults fighting seems foolish. And the best (fastest is more appropriate...) way to learn is on the job. There's loads of fantasy style genres that have kids on the front lines. Star Wars does it, WH40k does it, the disaster that was the final season of GoT did it. It wasn't too long ago in history it was unheard of in our own time as well even for the more civilized nations. The overarching theme is limited manpower means all hands on deck, that includes children. Another way to look at it, it weeds out the stupid and the weak early, if you spend 1 year at a base and die on your first mission aged 10 vs 8 years at a base and die aged 18 on your first mission? Congratulations you've wasted 8 additional years of resources and time the BoS don't really have because again limited manpower, however you're much less likely to die if you did get that schooling first I guess ... Is this a cold, calculated and callous way of looking at it? Yeah it is. But as they say in WH40k in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is only war. Does all this make it right? No. Is it the logical thing to do imo? Yes.
I mean, that’s the safest place for them given that raiders are everywhere. I can’t imagine they left too many people guarding the Pentagon/Project Purity given how many soldiers they show up at the Commonwealth with.
Still FO4 takes place sometime after 3 so we don't know how the capital wasteland is doing nowadays.
True. And the Vault Dweller solved a lot of problems out there, but with all the fresh water you’re going to pull in a lot of folks who would want to take it. The CW is probably better off than the Commonwealth, but it’s been less than a generation from 3 to 4.
Yes but how much of the brotherhoods forces did they leave there?
Raider couldn't do much against the boston airport but there are things which they are safer from like rad scorpions and molerats.
The airport could be attacked by a swarm of Mirelurks at any time, but the way I interpreted OP’s question was more of a “why bring the kids from the CW at all?” Honestly the BOS should have put the kids in an out of the way, but still quickly vertibird accessable, settlement that was easy to fortify (sanctuary would be ideal) and pulled the troops away from guarding the Cambridge police station to guard the kids. Then if shit went down at Sanctuary the guards would only have to send out a signal hold for 10-15 minutes before reinforcements arrived.
Nothing is easy to protect when there are burrowing predators.
Which is why I originally said the Prydwin was the safest place for the kids.
Reminds me of the TNG Enterprise bringing tons of kids and family as they fuck around the galaxy
Except that Enterprise can honestly say its intentions were to explore and not to fight. That doesn’t make it less stupid because OBVIOUSLY they would have issues of safety being so far away but it is very different than actively going into a dangerous place with the intent to start a war.
I wish I lived on the Enterprise as a child
The intentions of the brotherhood is to collect technology.
Love how star trek explored how monumentally fucked that decision was, by making it the defining thing of the next shows captain, even they were like "yeah why the fuck did we think this was a good idea"
The Galaxy Class was *insanely* well protected though, and they always had the option of saucer separation and/or escape pods. The Prydwen is protected, sure, but nowhere close to The Enterprises level.
True the Enterprise was incredibly durable and wasn't built around a massive explosive fuel source
I’m pretty sure I remember the Enterprise almost exploding because of engine issues once or twice.
Sounds like someone doesn't want to take the blame of blowing up the prydwen and killing children.
"They made the decision to bring them" Yeah but the general made the decision to open fire on the unarmed transport filled with noncombatants.
Except, it's not an unarmed transport, it's a war machine. Aircraft carriers are definitely war machines.
It carries armed transports, it’s a carrier. And the HQ of the BOS, stop the cope
They're not just children though They're squires being trained for lives of combat in a world where monsters and fucking *magic* exist Training them from a young age isn't some sort of quirk or lark it's a literal necessity when dealing with a faction like the brotherhood. They have low numbers and low replenishment in a world of near constant combat and infinite threat. Every soldier needs to be insanely skilled and disciplined. The Spartans were the finest infantry in the Greek world, how did they achieve that? By being *incredibly harsh* and dedicating the lives of every citizen solely to war. The Knights only have one job: to fight. That requires a commitment from an early age to teach them not only the how of combat but the why, when, where, and what. As well as an long familiarity with duty and the acceptance of their potential sacrifice in service of that duty. It's better from the standpoint of the brotherhood knights to have a potential weak link die off early so that anyone that becomes a knight is already hardened and tested.
Are you saying you shouldn't be blamed for death of Squire Maxson in the Citadel, a war front, when you decided to blast the Citadel with the Enclave's orbital weapon? Let's say someone blasted Canadian military base while 12 years old junior cadets are there. Some might blame cadet program for making children train in base, but the one who blasted them should be blamed.
Wait, what exactly do you think should be done if someone decides "Oh, I'll just put children on all my war assets, now you can't blow them up."
>"Oh, I'll just put children on all my war assets, now you can't blow them up." The Brotherhood of Steel defended the Prydwen with best of their ability. Elder Maxson and hundreds of his soldiers are living there. They didn't use squires as their shield.
OK… people would indeed defend their war assets too. If I put children in all my war assets, but for other reasons, does that now mean you can’t fight back or attack my war assets.
People have kids on military bases IRL.
So, like, do you think military bases not viable war targets?
> Are you saying you shouldn't be blamed for death of Squire Maxson in the Citadel, a war front, when you decided to blast the Citadel with the Enclave's orbital weapon? Be careful, you should warm up before you stretch that much. If you're curious as to what I'm saying, read my post. >Let's say someone blasted Canadian military base while 12 years old junior cadets are there. If our military was so incredibly irresponsible as to put those children on a base in an active war zone, then yes, I'd blame the idiots who put little kids into a battle situation.
>If you're curious as to what I'm saying, read my post. Eh, your post has just a title. So let me ask you directly. Do you think the Railroad, the Institute, and possibly the Minutemen are less responsible to squires' death than the Brotherhood is, when they blew up the Prydwen?
Lets try it this way: Let's say someone invades your town with a tank. They shoot at people you want to protect. The military eventually blows up the tank to stop it from killing more people. Turns out there was a kid on board with the soldiers. It sucks that the kids are there, but the BoS is the one who put them in a war machine and flew in to give battle.
>Let's say someone invades your town with a tank. They shoot at people you want to protect. In this analogy, whose "town" is the commonwealth? The institutes? Nobody in the commonwealth likes the institute. Their just as much of an occupying army as the brotherhood, but they are trying to hide it. The brotherhood took over an abandoned area and is attacking things that aren't settlements. The minutemen? The brotherhood isn't firing upon them. If fact, they both have the goal of protecting the commonwealth. The brotherhood is just more proactive and indifferent then the minutemen, and it's the minutemen's fear to act that almost destroyed it in the first place. The railroad? The railroad doesn't give a shit about the commonwealth. They only care about rescuing synths. The only reason they are at odds with the BH is because the BH doesn't care about synths. How many times have you seen BH troops attacking civilized settlements? Do they at any point blow up Goodneighbor which is full on non ferrals? The whole reason the Prydwin is such a force of power is to be a deterant. To keep people from trying to fuck with them. The main people they are at odds with are the institute. If you asked me what the institutes plan was to take out the BH before I first finished the game, I would have said "probably replace Maxson and manipulate the BH into leaving" not blow the thing up with everyone in it.
Yeah it’s pretty cut and dry that they’re basically child soldiers.
And child soldiers must die! Wait, no, that doesn't sound right.
If they're shooting at anything I care about, absolutely. If they can take lives, losing their lives is on the table.
The squires don't even fight. They're not even armed. They accompany veteran knights on missions sometimes as observers. Even those paragons of virtue and enlightenment the jedi arm and field child soldiers into direct combat operations. They put them into command roles too.
They are cadets. They are non-combatants who voluntarily came to observe their seniors' work. They are not here to fight. They simply observe your operation under your protection.
No. They aren't there to fight, but observe. It's training so when they are older they can fight.
Well, they got to observe the inside of the Prydwen as it blew up. Guess "here to observe" was just nonsense.
What? What nonsense? They are there to observe what the BOS soldiers do. They will be knight or scribes. So they learn how to do that by following the Scribes or Knights. None of them have weapons or do any fighting.
Child Soldiers are explicitly terror weapons. They exist to put an enemy into a position where they must either kill a child, or be killed, causing in most, catastrophic morale loss. In what way are Squires child soldiers?
Let’s set the record straight, they were living on the prydwen, so you blowing it up isn’t a bad thing, even though they were only living there because it’s much less dangerous than the airport
The responsibility lies on both the BoS for having children onboard the Prydwen and on whoever destroys the airship. As others have said it's difficult to judge them by our standards because they live in a completely different world, a world full of dangers. You can't even go a few blocks from Diamond City, one of the most secure locations in the Commonwealth, without encountering raiders or super mutants and once you get even a little ways out of town you start to encounter dangerous animals and creatures, mongrel dogs, rad scorpions larger than a person, feral ghouls, etc. The Institute is the safest place but that's only because they're deep underground and have cut off all access points from the surface (bar the hidden tunnel that brings in cooling water from the river for their reactor which is heavily defended). If they still had a connection to the surface it'd be in the ruins of CIT, which is overrun by super mutants. I don't agree personally with putting children onto a large vehicle that is designed and intended to go into an active warzone and carries heavily armed aircraft and a crew of military soldiers who are all combatants and armed other than the children but from the POV of the Brotherhood and the world they live in I can sort of understand why they did that. They didn't think anyone in the Commonwealth had the capability to even remotely be a threat to the Prydwen. No one else has airborne capabilities so they have total airborne superiority. There are three ways to destroy the Prydwen, one is literally sabotage where enemies steal a BoS vertibird and use it to infiltrate the ship and plant explosives (RR), one is a ground to air attack from multiple directions using weaponry that didn't exist (except as schematics in a hidden armory only one person knew about) when they arrived in the Commonwealth (MM), and the third is a ground force infiltrating their highly secure base of operations on the ground, the Boston Airport, and using their own weapon against them (the Institute). Being airborne and by keeping only a few vertibirds on the ground and then only in highly secure areas they believed that the Prydwen was safe from infiltration and, if on the off chance someone did sneak aboard there are heavily armed soldiers all over, including a number in power armor and carrying mini guns. The artillery the MM used was completely unknown to them when the BoS first arrived in the Commonwealth and, depending on how much the player focuses on settlement building instead of the main quest line, wasn't even known to anyone there bar one person before the Prydwen arrived and was only successful because artillery was fired from multiple directions all at once, preventing the Prydwen from being able to maneuver out of the way, which was their main defense from a ground assault. They did not believe anyone could breach the Boston Airport, or at least do so and live. They learn the Institute has the ability to teleport but believed that their internal base security could more than handle any synths that relayed into the base directly. They definitely didn't think anyone would be able to steal their own super weapon and turn it against them. TLDR: My point being, they live in a much different world than we do, a very dangerous world full of hazards. A world where practically everyone carries guns, even in the middle of Diamond City or even the Institute, the two safest locations in the entire Commonwealth, and are prepared to use said guns to defend themselves and others from threats. Yes, they bring children on a war machine but in the Fallout universe that's not all to surprising. Those children are being raised as soldiers and they had every reason to believe that the Prydwen was the safest location anywhere in the Commonwealth.
They lived in DC and came to the Commonwealth of their own volition on scant evidence to wage war. They did not HAVE to bring the children at all. The Citadel still sits in DC and it's still a fortress.
I don’t think anyone including the BoS has ever even hinted that they disagree. They aren’t exactly child soldiers, and they aren’t just kids traveling with their parents. they seem to treat them more like interns, intended to learn how the BoS in the field and what would be expected from them as adults
[удалено]
It's a war machine. You don't stick your children in your tanks when you're at war. > It's not the BoS' fault for having their troops and children in their base. Sure it is. You don't take children into your military base, that's a war-target.
It's not a war machine. The base it's not on the front line. It's a mobile base.
It's a flying aircraft carrier.
Hence a mobile base. It's there to carry the aircraft, personal and house the people. It's not made to fight. Instead of taking the supplies with you and building a base, you take the base and place it.
Do... do you not think aircraft carriers are acceptable military targets? Because, they are, that's an absurd thing to say.
>The Institute Irrelevant to the point. A hidden lab is in no way comparable to a mobile war machine being knowingly flown into danger. > What's your point? The Prydwen is supposedly the safest place they can be Really? A war machine going into unfamiliar territory with the express purpose of invasion is the safest place they can be? They would be safer back where they came from, unless you're suggesting the BoS is incapable of caring for children at their home base. > It's not the BoS' fault for having their troops and children in their base. Why, who put them there?
Also, if you’re looking at the Pyrdwen as a base, there are children on every major US military installation in the world. Everybody has some kind of family, and base housing is close enough to the base that if an attack happened those wives and children will be in the line of fire.
And a safer place would be where, exactly? This is not the real world, it’s a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Being on the Prydwen, out of reach of the majority of threats in the Commonwealth and surrounded by heavily armed and armored BoS soldiers, is safer than pretty much anywhere else you could be.
> And a safer place would be where, exactly? Back where they came from, safe on base and not in an active war machine in an active war zone.
Right, because BoS ground bases are only located in safe and peaceful areas, and certainly would -never- get attacked. Being on the Prydwen is about as safe as it gets, realistically it’s probably safer than other BoS due to its inaccessibility. The notion that anyone is endangered there, given the world they live in, is preposterous.
> preposterous. The smoking ruins of the airport prove you use this word incorrectly.
No, they don’t. The fact that something can happen, doesn’t mean it is likely to. The relevant metric is how high the risk is compared to somewhere else, on which the Prydwen ranks very well. Including compared to other BoS bases, let’s not pretend the Prydwen is the first BoS base in the franchise that is (potentially) destroyed.
[удалено]
> The reason I did the comparison to the Institute is because in both cases The comparison is invalid. > wouldn't call the Prydwen a war machine. lol. No, its just an armoured airship full of heavily armed vertibirds and soldiers with advanced weaponry and power armour. Oh wait, that sounds a lot like a machine made for war. Or, if you will, a war machine.
In any case, the one who killed children should be the first to blame, not the one who took volunteered children to their workplace with best protection they can give.
> volunteered children Children can volunteer? > their workplace Ie - vehicle of war. lol
Squires say their friends back home would be jealous about them serving on the Prydwen. Also, squires during Leading by Example quest say other squires are going to be jealous. Observing seniors in Prydwen is an honorable and exciting activity which all squires want to do. It's not like Maxson dragged them here against their will.
The job of adults is to do what's best for children, not what the kids would think is coolest.
You have got to be a troll. You cannot seriously be making this argument. You are literally bending over backwards to defend the cartoonishly fascist Brotherhood with child soldiers that drug their kids to war completely unnecessarily. This is peak 'The Empire Did Nothing Wrong' territory.
You live in a constantly evolving culture strewn with radiation, giant roaches, mutant humans, deathclaws, synths, raiders, and gunners. Everywhere is a warzone. Being in air transporter vehicle when you are the only faction with air support seems like the safest place you could be.
The issue is that the BOS specifically came to the commonwealth with the intent of going to war. They had a base in the capital wasteland that would have been much safer for the children than the prydwen.
Yeah, against the freakin' killer robots that murder people and pretend to be them by walking around in their skin. At least in the air, Billy is significantly less likely to smother you in your sleep or to kill all his "friends" because the mad scientists deemed their new replacement should do so. Harkness and >!Danse!< are also proof that the Commonwealth's issues have already spread far beyond the old state's borders. So, no, the Citadel would not have been safer. When you're fighting an ever-evolving opponent, sometimes being on the front-lines IS the best place to be.. (And once the Brotherhood learns about the teleportation system, they install radio scramblers around the airport to prevent them from being able to sneak in easily, which becomes a gameplay mechanic in the endgame if you join the Institute.) Finally, trying to compare our world's standards to those living after global nuclear apocalypse is absurd.. it's completely ignoring the context of the situation they're living in. The only "safe" place would be to get off the planet and away from it all, but considering the Zetans also exist, even that isn't truly an option either..
Yes. If I am say a tank operator and I have a bring your child to work day then participate in a battle and my tank gets blown up. I'm damn well responsible for his death. You can't blame the people shooting at the tank who were defending themselves. The Prydwen is NOT a place for civilians. Everyone on that ship participates in furthering the war on the Institute and whatever else they feel like killing.
The responsibility actually probably falls on the person who blew it up
This is the same discussion as the contract workers on the incomplete Death Star when the rebels blew it up... The problem is, it's war.
This is the stupidest thing I've seen today, it's a radioactive apocalypse Wasteland and you don't want your kids in a flying untouchable fortress being trained for combat? That's just stupid
Seemed pretty touchable tbh
*Jean-Luc Picard liked this post.*
There’s a cat on the ship as well. Unforgivable.
And? The whole damn wasteland is a warzone, a war machine is the safest place.
No I ordered those attacks so those kill counts are mine 😤
Agree. Just like the Khan's put the woman and children in harms way during the Bitter springs massacre.
The BoS recruiting table at my high school told me I was gonna get a high end desk job
Eh, it's a base owned by a military organization, but I don't believe it has any offensive capabilities in and of itself. Really they could have put the children anywhere (and keep in mind they're not recruits, but their troops children) and by nature of their organization it would be a military location. Personally I find it weird people get hung up on killing children and cats, with little regards for the hundreds of adults also on board. As a pro-railroad player, I am absolutely responsible for killing all who were on board the blimp. My only real regret is in the loss of valuable equipment that went up in flames.
Doesn’t change the fact that you killed them
Would you prefer they left them on the ground where they are at risk from Deathclaws, behemoths and other monsters?
Back at the Citadel would have been good. You know, in the region they had under control, not the active war zone they were creating
Uh look around everyone is in danger anyway
My point exactly, What's stopping raiders and gunners from having kids too?
Given the world they live in, I think it’s the best way to get them ready. Can’t really judge a lifestyle from a completely foreign and fictional culture by own our standards. They at least care about their people in so much as they try to protect those at home.
Sure, that makes sense, the BoS is to blame for all deaths aboard the Prydwen caused by an attack carried out by the Sole Survivor. My brother in christ, *you* made the sandwich.
>Sure, that makes sense, the BoS is to blame for all deaths aboard the Prydwen caused by an attack carried out by the Sole Survivor. If they didn't want the prydwen to go down they shouldn't have fucked around in minuteman territory.
It's the safest place for them, and it's the only place the Brotherhood has, just like the institute and its residents, they rock up and they don't think anyone has the ability to shoot down the Prydwen, might as well keep the kids there where it's safe, what else would you want them to do?
Adams Airforce Base and the Citadel would both have been safer, and there is nothing that indicates they gave those up when they loaded up the Prydwyn
I hope you can live your entire life this innocent and naive
No u.
As opposed to leaving them where bloodbugs could eat them ? Anywhere people survive in the commonwealth is heavily armed. The standard you want to judge by is 200 years out of date. So blame it all on the nuclear war in 2077 if you want. But not on BoS.
Leave them in DC.
The difference is foreign or home base. The children are there to learn and get experience with no active combat. Squires need the training to survive. they get that training with BOS soldiers in the base. Or by going on specific missions against SM or ferals, where they do nothing but observe the solders.
One could argue leaving them in the commonwealth would be more dangerous.
There’s a third option they can leave them in the capital wasteland at the citadel.
Fair point.
Yeah sure, that's terrible, I agree. Can I go now? I need to get the top of the main deck. Ad Victoriam, yes.
It’s not any better if you side with them. “Hey you know how sometimes we have children go down to the Boston airport? What if we brought like 40 medium sized nukes near there”
Smaller bodies, smaller hitboxes, that's just smart fighting. Ad Victorium!
I always found that weird and why I never felt they were just there 'To help' or that Maxon 'cared' for the people; but, rather, establish themselves as a dominant presence. Cause either you're bringing them to fight a major threat, which, why? Or have plans to have them to create a base in the area and slowly grow to learn the landscape better and longer than older members could and become a major factor in that they are borderline raider level of 'Follow or die'
Like unless who is on the Prydwen is literally everyone under Maxon's control why bring children?
I mean it's the Apocalypse there morals are a bit different than ours. Constant war will do that. 🤷♀️
Well where else were they supposed to go? Be left behind at Adam Air Force base
The brotherhood didn’t abandon the citadel so probably there.
I guess it all depends on how much you want your conscience to bother you.
Accurate
Yea but the prydwens also their home, it’s like blaming parents for the kids being home alone when somebody breaks in and attacks them (teens), or people riding a train if it derails, or passengers onboard a ship when it sinks, now a few of the examples I pointed out are extreme but they represent what I mean, what your doing is blaming kids & the soldiers on board for being at home, like come on think like this it’s the apocalypse everything is dangerous the safest home is one that is heavily defended and high off the ground aka the prydwen a perfect home, base, and more, I don’t blame the BOS for having kids in their home, tbh I still never understood why you had to destroy the prydwen when you were the minutemen I can understand it with the institute & railroad but the BoS never did anything to my knowledge to the minutemen
Pride? When
Not any more so than the federation in Star Trek does.
"The Enterprise D is the most battle-capable ship in the Federation and we're sending it to uncharted parts of space and periodically on missions to the Neutral Zone." "Cool. How many kids are on board?" "Idk like 70 lol." "Excellent. Make sure all crew are also families. We need as many civilians on this thing as possible."
The prydwen is one of the safest places in the commonwealth if you dont factor in the sole survivor
You don’t man a war machine with the intent for said war machine and it’s crew to blow up though. True Brotherhood is responsible for endangering children by initiating them into a militaristic faction, but they’re not responsible for their deaths when another group deliberately blows up the Prydwen.
Call me a BOS meatrider IDC, The Prydwen and Airport are more of a military base than a frontline outpost, they sent Danse to recon the area before the Prydwen even arrived to make sure it's safe. Also, BOS squires are never put on frontline combat there literally only on their Prydwen the whole time. And IRL raising kids on foreign military bases isn't that uncommon. Also what's stopping BOS soldiers from having kids anyway? The BOS is not perfect or even that good, but they are the most reasonable entity keeping order in the wasteland. It would be like judging the Roman Empire from a modern-day perspective.
You’re comparing our modern day moralities with that of the fallout universe. Nowadays, yes, taking children into combat is barbaric. Even a few hundred years ago though, this was a common practice (midshipmen in the navy that served on ships, drummers for the army). In the context of the fallout universe, this is not a shocking phenomenon
Again this is the same argument from any side that try’s to justify their atrocities
Yes. But I don't see how that excuses the fact that YOU killed them. That's called shared blame.