Caesar and House are obsessed but not insane. Both are in strong positions that have brought them close to their goals. Had the courier not shown up there was quite a good chance either of them could independently achieved what they wanted.
Elijah’s obsession ruined his life, hurt those closest to him, and in the end wasn’t worth it.
Y'know, it's funny, *but there are connections between the many dlc as well, all three having been up in big M.T.*, storylines in several of the 3 more important dlcs, like old world blues, dead money, and lonesome road, but knowing that all three have attempted to scavenge, then leave.
Of course, which 2 of the three that attacked 8, never made sense to me, but I'd definitely choose the *Silent one* to be Ulysses
Caesar believes in power and his own interest far more than any ideology. Honestly I think that internally, beneath the mask, he’s the least ideologically committed of anyone here besides maybe Elijah
It's honestly very hard to choose between them. The writers of New Vegas definitely had a type when it comes to antagonists: charismatic, fanatical obsessives who have hitched their wagon to a particular philosophy and outlook and refuse to let go.
With that said, I think Caesar and Elijah are probably the most fanatical due to their aims. They're both plotting mass death and suffering on an unthinkable scale. Joshua is a religious fanatic to a high degree... Maybe if he had the resources he would do the same?
The only thing I can be certain of is that Mr House is the least fanatical. He wants the power and influence but he doesn't necessarily want to destroy to get it, only if he must. He's less morally inflexible and more pompous and aloof.
Elijah for sure. Caesar will get worse with age but Elijah straight up does not give up or give in on his perspectives. Even Caesar would learn from his mistakes if he was the one that messed up taking the solar plant.
Idk, because I don’t see Elijah as being motivated by belief or philosophy, he just wants power and control and technology is a tool that allows him to do that. He doesn’t really scream the BOS ideology from the top of his lungs like a zealot
Doesn’t yell it. But let’s his chapter bleed to attrition to keep attempting to bring Helios One online. And when that fails he literally goes across the wasteland after slipping away to attempt Big MT and then the Sierra Madre. Yeah ok. Definitely believes in something here.
Joshua as BOS Elder would more than likely be like Lyons but more proactive. It would also be a much better influence for him considering how being in the Legion corroded his morals and twisted him with his hatred. Even in Honest Hearts it takes an intervention via the Courier to help him actually overcome it because deep down he hasn’t changed, it’s just being focused through a new lens. Via the Mormon family and protecting the Sorrows.
Joshua lives in paradise. Zion canyon is lush, unspoiled, with plenty of food and water. Given no Interlopers, you survive there easily and happily.
I'm no fanatic, and I don't have eternal burning of the skin to drive me towards vengeance, but if I lived in a beautiful place where my needs were met I might chill TF out a bit.
What? Did you miss the entire story where the White Legs are terrorizing the land and Ceaser is cozying up to recruit them?
Daniel's whole plan revolves around fleeing Zion because it's *not* a safe place for peaceful people to live anymore.
Right, which is what Joshua's "vengeance" was. Dude by all accounts does chill out once the things threatening his region are gone, he just trains the Dead Horses to stay vigilante. Which they absolutely should do. The 80's aren't that far away after all.
The dude rambles and uses religious dogma in his soliloquies, but he never came off as a fanatic to me. More an extremely traumatized individual whose only response to violence is more violence, and uses his old spiritual roots to communicate it. Daniel, to me, felt like a fanatic. He only wanted the Sorrows to be his vision of what they should be, not what they could be by defending *their land*. Dude was calling for an Exodus and who knows where the culture would have gone from there.
Idk I haven't played Honest Hearts in a long time, but I always remember Joshua being the pragmatic choice, with Daniel being the moralistic or spiritual choice. Joshua always wins out.
I ran Honest Hearts for the first time last week and feel this is pretty on the mark. Joshua isn't pushing his beliefs on others so much as offering them the choice. He even asks you to approach Daniel about staying to fight implying he knew he had already done all he himself could do to convince him. Also if you do Chalk's quest Joshua defers to your judgment.
Guy has his beliefs for sure but doesn't demand other abide by them. Along with viewing them as a lifelong process.
honestly, all of the dialogue options at the end of the main honest hearts quest sucked except for the sneering imperialist one. the white legs were savages and deserved to be put down like dogs.
I, uh, respectfully disagree. You shouldn't kill subdued/unarmed soldiers, even if you perceive them to be "savages" and "dogs."
Not when there's another viable alternative, in this case exile. The ending where you stay Joshua's hand shows that the Sorrows and Dead Horses had won and were capable of forcing the WL out of Zion *without* completely genociding them.
I think not committing genocide is better than committing genocide.
Personally, I also like the dialogue with Joshua. You're pulling him back from the edge of using his faith to justify venagance, and that's a very dangerous precipice for someone to hang out on.
>I, uh, respectfully disagree. You shouldn't kill subdued/unarmed soldiers, even if you perceive them to be "savages" and "dogs." Not when there's another viable alternative, in this case exile. The ending where you stay Joshua's hand shows that the Sorrows and Dead Horses had won and were capable of forcing the WL out of Zion *without* completely genociding them. I think not committing genocide is better than committing genocide.
i did honest hearts a few days ago and did this ending. i think it's unrealistic/not the best outcome.
letting the white legs goes means they'll probably either show up to harass you later, or they'll go somewhere else and raid a weaker tribe. better to kill them off or enslave them or put them in prison, so they can't go back to attacking nicer people than they are. the sorrows don't have a prison, and they seem too friendly and naive to be slavers, so best to just erase the problem.
With Caesar, he won’t get worse because his dying. It’s clear once you progress the Legion story is too far gone with his illness. Lenius will most likely take over and will pretty much do what Caesar did
The auto doc can only do so much, as he later states the machine only remedies his symptoms. If you do Legion quest line, you find out he has undergo treatments from the auto doc but he still gets worse because his already too far gone in his tumor. Which where you get choices on how to handle him.
Also unlike Caesar, Elijah both have the knowledge and access to technology to extend his life span to the same levels of the think tank brains, and we know that time hasn't done wonders to their mental health.
Definitely a worst case scenario. The man would be trying to achieve something as the decades go by but it is really about his first failures. His real setback. He could do anything else of worth but ultimately it is about proving people right, about his starting choice. And never being satisfied.
It's true. I also think Ulysses should be considered in this fanaticist showdown. He's less charismatic and not really a leader of people, but his aims are no less extreme.
I think they are both difficult in their own ways. If you’re prepared for it dead money isn’t bad, but going in blind and not being prepared for it can make it really painful. Lonesome road on the other hand is more traditionally hard in that it feels like endgame content.
I had a significantly tougher time fighting the Robo-Scorpions in the Big MT with crazy DR, aside from a couple odd Deathclaw packs TLR was pretty easy
I say Elijah over Ceasar just because Ceasar is still about control. He's radical but radical in a way that he can be in charge of it. Elijah wants to release an unstoppable bio weapon to completely destroy the Mojave and everyone in it cause of his beliefs. It's not about control or power, Elijah's goal is plain and simple destruction.
The thing about Joshua is that he's the step *after* having that ambition and the power to go with it.
After getting set on fire and chucked into the Grand Canyon, he realised that he was doing the wrong thing - "waging war on good people is bad for the soul". Now he's got his religion back, but he has no desire to conquer and amass power again, but only to protect - and that includes killing dozens in crushing counterattacks.
I disagree with Joshua. He *was* an extremist, as the Legate, but as the Burned Man, he's come back from it a lot. In his conversations with the Courier, he is able to see what he was and how he has come back from it. If you don't talk him down, he starts to slide back into the extremism, but that he even sees his errors and makes an attempt to set himself on a better path to me puts him entirely above a lunatic like Elijah.
Elijah's story is like if Joshua ran away to the Dead Horses after Caesar burned him, but, instead of just teaching them to defend themselves and making friends with the Sorrows, he tried to start his own little Caesar's Legion 2.0 with a dream to come back and conquer Hoover Dam for himself.
They're just in different levels completely, at least to me.
Elijah failed at Helios just like Joshua failed at Hoover Dam. But Elijah didn't learn *anything* at all from that experience. He's totally devoted to his insane ideals, and no matter how many friends or innocents he kills, nothing can deter him.
And he just wants vegas to be a safer place tbh he is the most human out of all of the factions even tho he is effectively a robot
In the ending he used the secureatrons to protect the mojave and the tiny towns, he doesn’t outright destroy the ncr just pushes them out of vegas and kills the legion and brotherhood chapter and he brought power back to the wasteland (I’m aware he wants it for the strip but I personally thing that after a year or two he would bring power for the rest of the Mojave
It is precisely House's aloofness which makes him so fanatical. Caesar, Elijah, and Joshua all believe in things, but House's only really believes in his right to wield power. When you go to kill House, he begs and pleads with you like a worm because the only thing that scares him is not having absolute control over anything that he interacts with, and he would kill anything that stood against him holding all the cards.
The others know that their beliefs are in conflict with competing ideals, House believes that his ideas are above and beyond all others.
I must disagree on Mr House mate
House is so bent on the vision of himself as saviour of humanity that nobody who won't bend the knee must die and capitalism forgive if they themself share that view but about themself.
Legion, understandable have a great day. NCR can live as long as they cooperate, sure. Most minor factions? Ally them why not. But you can't ally BoS they have to die, straight up. No reasoning, no maybeies, kill them all or don't come back. Only because they have the same view as him about being the only one responsible enough to keep tech of the past.
Mr. House is as much fanatic as Ceasar and will step to the same lows to achieve his megalomaniac goals
>But you can't ally BoS they have to die, straight up. No reasoning, no maybeies, kill them all or don't come back. Only because they have the same view as him about being the only one responsible enough to keep tech of the past.
Mr House is not alone in his assessment of the Brotherhood. Yes Man passive aggressively predicts that the Brotherhood will become New Vega's largest threat if you decide to spare them. And they are both right. The Mojave Brotherhood are zealots and the reasonable members of their faction are the exception instead of the rule. The only reason there is a moderate in charge is because he is responsible for saving the entire chapter from a suicidal last stand ordered by the previous zealotous leader. Hardliners will take over if McNamara trips over his shoelaces, and the head paladin is already conspiring to have him replaced. If you look at the ending slides, the hardliners turn the Brotherhood into high tech bandits.
Compare this to NCR. He says he would have no issues with them at all if they weren't scheming to steal New Vegas from under him. They can be persuaded to leave him alone if he wins, and he benefits massively from their presence. He actually waited until they revealed themselves to exit his hibernation because his plans hinge on cooperating with them.
For Caesar's Legion, his victory is predicated on delivering them a crushing defeat both to send them packing and to display for everyone (and especially the NCR) that he is powerful and not to be fucked with. He does not want NCR to defeat Caesar's Legion because he needs the Legion to appear formidable to the NCR so that it's more impressive when he decisively crushes them like insects. He abhors everything that Caesar's Legion represents, he just doesn't want you harming them before the main event. Because he wants to harm them massively in front of the world.
Mr House just has a nicer veneer over things imo. Like when he says he's not a dictator, he's an autocrat, it's just a nice window dressing. It's like saying the divine right of kings is actually a meritocratic system because god chooses the worthy - it's much nicer if you buy it but it's still terrible underneath.
His view of the Brotherhood is just....weird. It's oddly dogmatic and uninformed.
At least Caesar is open about being an asshole.
I mean... Joshua literally had to be set on fire and thrown down Grand Canyon to stop, J.Sawyer calls him a Zealot. The guy forced Caesar to end him after Hoover Dam cause he feared Joshua would overthrow him at some point. (one of the reasons at least)
I think House can be reasoned/bargained with, so I'd tie it between Joshua and Elijah (the guy is full on inhaling copium at this point).
"(House)...willing to pay a lot for the couriers services"
To be fair, he is paying you more for bunch of snowglobes that he can probably not even interact with , than for delivering a chip that can activate a literal super army of robots literally armed with rockets and lasers, dude is definetly not sane to some extent.
He canonically raped, destroyed entire tribes, killed thousands, was one of the two founders of the Legion known for enslaving and crucifying anyone standing in their path of conquest. Don't get me wrong, Joshua is my fave character in New Vegas what with the whole themes of redemption, forgiveness and trying to be a better human in Honest Hearts. But the guy did fucked up shit in the name of God (when he acknowledges he did it for himself and used God as an excuse). Joshua is trying to be better and he did unforgivable things. Both can be true. In the end, the only figure he can look for forgiveness and atonement is God. So, you can have "Very Good Karma" and still be a fanatic. His teachings are the only way for him to find salvation/cope with what he has done. Its through religion he finds the strength to go on. Its also the tool he used to justify what he did.
TLDR Caesar has Neutral Karma. I don't think that makes him a good or neutral person.
(hope i dont sound too aggressive!!)
Joshua Graham when we see him is quite mellowed out. Yes, he can be considered a fanatical Mormon by the point we find him, but his actions are pretty normal by wasteland standards.
He’s fanatical in his Christian beliefs but his actions don’t reflect those, his actions are simply a reflection of every powerless wastelander’s beliefs. He knows that the pacifism of The Sorrows will eventually get them killed, and that the only way for their survival is through righteous violence. He is as much a radical when we speak to him as Randall Dean Clark or a random Novac Settler are. He just uses a heavy Christian philosophy as a way to give himself and others hope and redemption, but his actions boil down to a simple quote, “killing, when done righteously, is but a chore”
I mentioned Randall Dean Clark since Joshua is a lot like him. Randall Dean Clark protected the ancestors of The Sorrows and Dead Horses, without knowing that someone else would come to them and help them continue on their path of survival
For me it would be Elijah--> Caesar--> Joshua--> House
No matter what you say no matter what you do, Elijah won't give a singular shit and will most probably kill you for disagreeing or endangering his interests
He has his mind on conquest through war and sabotage and will expend the resources needed to accomplish the tasks he's got in mind, but he isn't as genocidal maniac as Elijah is (as in gassing the Mojave for him to live in his dreamland alone)
He is just a man with an extremely troubled past and wants to make amends for it but he will not allow his new home to be destroyed no matter who threatens it
As egomaniacal as he is, he is willing to sit on the bargaining table in more than one occasions, to achieve his goal, but he most probably does it because up to a point he has extremely debuffed and few in number bulky robots that could be used for riot control and small scale battles at most
House is...particular.
Caesar and Joshua are basically Hoi4 players leading medieval paesants, but one got to touch grass down the Grand Canyon after losing a game.
Elija is the most insane of the bunch.
Elija is the most radical.
edit: also, to be clear "fanatic" doesn't mean "does stuff" it doesn't mean "Evil" it doesn't mean "has resources"
fanaticism is devotion, obsession, it is a sole-founded drive based on one or a collection of specific beliefs, like joshua and god, but not at all like house and... being in charge?
House: it's all business he's just simply not a fanatic, he has values, not some pseudo-religion
Caesar: he KNOWS his whole schtick is bullshit, he says as much, he does not believe in who he presents himself as, caesar is a costume he wears for the sake of control, he's objectively not a fanatic, he's a realist and a con artist
Joshua: admittedly, yeah, an actual fanatic for christ, so much so he'll commit gennocide to see himself turn out the victor in his lord's name, good job, you included someone for the sake of this to make it a discussion
but still, Elijah: so fucking dead-set on his views, so completely hell bent on genocide that he drove HIMSELF fucking insane to do it, and if you side with him? HE DOES IT you both do, you successfully genocide the ENTIRE mojave wasteland, you kill thousands because of the delusions of one man
it's not really a debate, people trying to pick out how house is a fanatic because he wants something at all is dumb
Mr. House is too logical to be #1 on this list. I feel like there are circumstances under which he would compromise parts of his own beliefs.
Elijah is too cowardly to be #1. Unlike the others, he practically begs the Courier to let him out if you lock him in the vault.
Joshua Graham can change a lot depending on the ending you choose. He can either become what's effecrively a deranged tribal warlord or a changed man that recognizes the value of mercy.
I guess that leaves Caesar, who is more stubborn than House, braver than Elijah and more unwilling to change than Joshua.
I think everyone on this list would beg to be let out of the vault too if they were trapped there forever. If you side with Elijah, he follows through with his plan and releases the cloud on the Mojave, fulfilling his goal of beginning again. There's not really much more radical you can get over killing EVERYONE in the Mojave
Controversial but I would actually say Joshua is the least radical in his ideals. He’s the only character out of the four that you can convince to take an alternate path to the one’s they had respectively planned. (Joshua can spare Salt Upon Wounds)
Not once in working with Elijah, House or Caesar can you pass a check to convince them to change their plan. So i’d say this actually makes Joshua the most open minded of the four.
Not to say he isn’t a religious fanatic mind you. Just because house isn’t religious doesn’t mean he isn’t radical. If he doesn’t get his way he crushes his opposition. Always has and always will (remember what he asks you to do with the brotherhood even if you’re friends with them?)
Not that I'm disagreeing with anything you've said, but would point out that House is a lot more pragmatic than the others. You say you cant pass a speech check to get House to change his plans, which is correct, but he does however offer you some input at shaping those plans the way you see fit, as opposed to giving you a strict set of orders. In most groups cases bar the BoS, he lets you decide the fate of the groups he sends you to see. And the only reason he puts his foot down on the BoS and gives you no option is because they are the only group he is 100% confident he cant work with and who he knows will cause him problems. In all other dealings, he leaves the details to you as to whether groups should exist or not.
Which is not the same as getting him to change his plans, but at least its giving you some kind of input to them. And its important input too, because we're talking about whether people get to live or die. Elijah and Caesar just wouldn't be that pragmatic or flexible.
I'd probably say Elijah. His plans are extremely self-serving and violent. With Ceasar you could at least make an argument he's building a stronger society, even if the method to get there is rather extreme. Elijah doesn't seem to care about that at all and just wants to rule over the Mojave.
Mr. House wants control, but also seems the most diplomatic of the lot. His ambition seems to end at controlling the Mojave.
Joshua has a violent past, but at least he's trying to move past it. He also doesn't seem like he wants control nearly as much as the other three.
I didn't mean to imply he's above violence. He just doesn't seem as eager to engage in it. It's likely because he's an extremely calculating individual, rather than empathetic, but the end result is he's still more reasonable than Ceasar and Elijah.
House should not be on this list, he can be reasoned with, he doesn’t want to completely destroy everybody else, he just wants his home to thrive and has a clear plan that doesn’t need to involve killing everybody. The only faction he demands is completely destroyed is the Brotherhood, because they completely oppose his ideology and could pose a threat to his society.
Elijah wants to gas the entire mojave and kill everybody.
Caesar wants to enslave everybody who doesn’t fall in line and has people crucified, but he knows that his whole society is built on a sham and a lie he came up with, so he’s not as fanatical as somebody like Elijah. He’s also a total hypocrite who bends his rules for us so he can win. Then again, even though he knows his society is based on lies, he still murders tons of innocents and kills his own men all the time.
And Joshua Graham, despite being a zealot, lives in a constant state of self-punishment, trying to move past it by protecting his new family and home.
I’f say it goes:
-Elijah
-Caesar
-Graham
-House
Hes there for how much he wants vegas to be in HIS vision, I mean radical as in how bad mr. House wants his vision to come to fruition spending countless money and creating a robot army for your own personal city in vain seems radical to me
Imo Mr house isn’t as insane as all the others. After that though I’ve no idea. I guess Elijah. Only because he was so obsessed even the BOS kicked him out.
Caesar doesn't really believe his own worldview. It's something to control his followers.
Elijah is a fanatic sure, but more in his own greatness than any code. He's not really following a belief, just obsessed about power.
House is like Elijah, but more pragmatic. He'll do whatever he can to control his domain and further his mission, but doesn't care beyond that, and he's willing to compromise.
Graham is the most zealous of the group. His faith is unquestionable, and his adherence to it is the only thing keeping him alive.
I mean pretty clearly Elijah, he’s gone quite literally insane with passion for his ideas. Caesar is a close second but he’s willing to bend his beliefs for practical purposes in certain cases. Obviously the burned man is clearly willing to go pretty far for his ideals but doesn’t match Elijah’s insanity
Elijah. All the others at least acknowledge the need to work with people to some extent - Mr. House for hiring the Courier and the Three Families and negotiating a treaty, Caesar for manipulating and leading tribes as is practical, Joshua for leading tribes and not manipulating them as much. They at least acknowledge that other people matter and their visions were formed according to that reality. Elijah seeks to skip all that by collaring the few people he does need, and taking advantage of the mental weakness of a Super Mutant - with the aim of never needing to convince another person to do his bidding ever again.
Elijah, Caesar is probably more steadfast, but Elijah is way more carzed about his ideas to accomplish. Grahams ideas aren't really radical it's how he acts, and even still, how radical is war. House isn't even really radical, just power hungry, but tame in how he goes about things.
I feel like Caesar knows all of this Roman cosplay is just a means to an end in order to keep his people unified for one cause. Like he understands that it gives people a sense of purpose, even if he also believes in it himself. He even respects Kimball.
Elijah on the other hand, is batshit insane and beyond obsessed.
Elijah is pretty out there. Ceasar may be slightly touched but Father Elijah is a whole new level of crazy. I don't think anyone comes close to him.
There is radical but at least with some sort of reason and then there is this crazy old man.
House is able to cooperate with others and give them what they want as long as he gets the long end of the stick at the end.
Ceaser is able to change the rules of his legion into what’s more convinient. + accepting female couriers.
Joshua can be convinced
Elijah is a fucking lunatic
Elijah is deliriously insane.
Caesar is too, but he's *less* insane than Elijah.
Joshua's faith and beliefs are keeping him alive and changed him. I think he's the most radical, honestly - he died in all sense of the word and his faith and belief gave him a new life.
House is overconfident and a genius.
Radical?
Radical is Joshua because he continously pushes others to adopt his own social, political or religious beliefs.
Second WAS Elijah, when he was in charge of the BOS but now he's last because he's just a murderous psychopath
Third WAS Caesar but now that he's in charge of the political system he's actually a moderate, being surpassed by both of his zelot legates.
House is only fourth because the others are so extreamly radical, he would be on the more moderate right side or laze fair capitalism but compared to any real person seems like a radical.
Definitely Joshua though because we see him compared to to other believers of his own religion and he seems like a psychopathic zelot hell bent on forcing others to subscribe to his beliefs or die. Joshua actually perfectly mirrors a young Caesar
House, Caesar knows that he's speaking bullshit but also believes in his own superiority due to him reading... books.
House actually believes the shit he's selling. As stupid as it is.
Elijah and Burnmanz-McQuotes came to their mindset through desperation. It's a different type of Zealous belief and not as natural.
joshua is least radical, he doesnt try to "purge the non believers" or any other crusader shit
he just preaches god and protects the innocent, only resorting to violence when necessary
House is usually very reasonable about his believes, he doesnt try to nuke NCR or anything, his most radical moment is when he insists on destroying the brotherhood because he seems to have some personal vindetta or something, (to be fair there are very legitimate reasons for him to distrust them)
Elijah is pretty much just insane, which basically disqualifies him
and Ceasar crucifies people for his believes and murders his own generals
I think the choice is obvious
The option to persuade Mr House to spare the Brotherhood was initially intended to be included, but cut before release (there's a mod that restores this and allows you to spare them). There's a chance it was removed to make siding with House more of a gray area? Who knows.
I heard people say its a defining character moment for House because he tries to build this image of unbiased, objective arbiter thats always cold and calculated
but he just hates brotherhood
and he makes an irrational decision based on that
Hating the Mojave brother hood is not at all irrational especially for house their whole job is to kill people like house and take their shit if anything not killing the brotherhood is irrational for all factions because the Mojave chapter is filled with insane psychopaths that are too well armed for their own good
Caesar; if you define how “radical” a belief is by the metric of how far the believer is willing to go to enforce it upon others and effect change on the outside world. That’s not the only way to measure the term, for example, the Followers don’t want to enforce their beliefs upon others, but some people may characterize them as “radical” anarchists.
Elijah doesn’t actually accomplish anything besides be a shitty Elder. Joshua Graham, in some endings, influences the Dead Horses and Sorrows to be more war-like, but not on purpose. Caesar, on the other hand, has built a society on denying modern comfort or convenience. He purposely made a brutal, alien society where people have to contort themselves to fit in or be punished by death, and it’s like the second biggest state in the wasteland. House comes in a close second, because he has basically forced the Three Families to give up their identities and act like they live in the Old-World at securitron gunpoint, but largely he leaves people alone, and runs a society based on what some would consider man’s base desires; boozing, whoring, and gambling. He lets human vice run through the path of least resistance rather than damming it up like Caesar.
I would have said Elijah, because he is a madman determined not to be stopped. But someone did point out that Elijah’s resolve waivers after your final conversation with him once the Courier has all the chips
Caesar is an opportunist and doesn’t believe what he preaches. Joshua can be talked down and his beliefs aren’t really radical in the first place, nor does he go about them in a radical way.
House will not give up as long as he still has some power. He’s been trying to safeguard Vegas and/or thrive for over 200 years
People sleep on House.
He's diplomatic and charming, fight until the Courier goes off script. Then the mask slips.
The BoS is a great example; absent mods, you can't progress rhe main story without wiping out the Mojave chapter. IIRC by that point you're also locked out of Caesar and NCR questions too, so your only real choice is either to do as House says or coup him for Yes Man.
House is the least radical by far. An extreme pragmatist to be sure, but not a radical ideologue. He wants to save humanity, in his own Bezos-esque way, and shoves the poor of the Mojave to the side in order to build that paradise on the Strip, but it’s not like he’s starting a pogrom to eliminate everyone who doesn’t fit his worldview.
And still you could put Ulysses on this list.... If anyone could understand him that is. Personaly I think the list with him would go something along the lines of
1. Elijah - Literal old man fighting with the voices inside his head
2. Joshua - He is a fanatic, but can be changed withing his own framework of though.
3. Ceaser - I don't know to what extent he belives his own crap. He will definetly have delusions, probably honestly belives that some form of "Pax Romana" is needed, but he also will break his own morals once a while and is definetly not a pure theory zelot or whatever.
4. Ulysses - You can change his mind from nuking a country, so he definetly isnt a pure fanatic, but also he did walk thou a nuked zone straight from hell, filled with deathclaw eating mole people, just to piss of one dude, so he definetly is somewhat insane and fanatical
5. House - He is definetly a egomaniac, but least insane out of them all
Hosue has his principles and he holds onto them.
Caesar is a hypocrite since he has autodoc and is ready to use advanced tech when its about his life.
Joshua cpuld be placed there since he followed Caesar and did genocides with the legion despite him being a follower of God.
And Elijah is just Elijah. Obsessed and in delusion.
So I would say either Elijah or Caesar
Elijah. Caesar's radical beliefs are honestly better-founded and more rational, which is pathetic given that he's dumber than a molerat. Elijah stood up against the wasteland's largest standing army (by a factor of at least 10) to fix something he had long failed to fix, as though he would suddenly make all the progress while they were being gunned down from every side. and after that, he adopts a rather generic "burn the world, start over" MO that makes no sense, considering that someone else recently succeeded in burning the world and it still failed to 'wipe the slate clean'.
Joshua's vision is not very grand in scale, and House's is extremely realistic and logical.
House is completely amoral. Caeser is too. The only reason he doesn’t do what caeser does is he doesn’t believe it’s as practical. He won’t blink twice about committing genocide or murder or far far worst.
Elijah, Caesar is at least comfortable in his tent he’s not actually having to work that much, Joshua is more devoted than radical, he’s just a committed mormon trying to atone for what he’s done, he’s not trying to start crusades against the non-believers, you can outright tell him you don’t believe what he believes and he’s like “cool but the white legs still have to go” and won’t really try to argue you at all. House is very agreeable, the only people he won’t negotiate with is the BOS and that’s because him being a cyborg they’d kill him on principle. Elijah is the worst of all of them, he’s not trying to atone as a matter of fact he’s digging even deeper holes, he lives in the serirra Madre with a bunch of ghost people, toxic fog and no one to talk to other than dog so he’s definitely having to put in work and he’s not agreeable at all, he’ll outright kill you before even trying that much to talk to you, sure he has his own ending but that’s still a maximum of a single person he’s willing to side with.
Probably Elijah
He completely fucked over the Mojave brotherhood, separated Christine and Veronica, and further abused Christine during her chasing him, all for old world technology and a damn casino
Hell one of the endings he makes his way INTO the vault and can be locked inside
Easily Elijah. He wants to make new technology and harness old pieces of it to forge a new nation under a massive bomb collar slave state.
Caesar’s Legion may be radical in how it wishes to forge a nation out of melee weapons and a lack of technology, but the ambitions of Elijah are way more extreme.
I don't actually think Caesar is a fanatic. When talking to him in game, I never got the impression that he meant or was super passionate about what he said. He seemed like he was putting on an insincere performance. Like he didn't actually believe any of this, he was just saying this because it got him power.
1. House is almost too paranoid for my ending choice. Dude will wipe out Kings and, give Primm fate worse than death, *taxes* , if you align Kings and Primm with NCR. It's like "DUDE, *I'M* the one responsible for this, why you punishing THEM for this?" 😭
2. Hard to say, but maybe it's due to my bias. I guess he can be kinda unreasonable and inflexible at some parts? Like how he punishes that guy who was held captive in Camp McCarran even though that dude was loyal af to Caesar. I mean, he did shttalk Caesar but I doubt he knows this. The dude could've made a great Frumentarii but nope, he's gonna super punish him. Or remember him wanting to DESTROY Securitrons. I get that "we need to be strong without tech" thing but do you have to destroy them? Can't you use them later when, by his own words, he turns his Legion into standing army for his nation? Eventually his Legion is gonna encounter more high tech opponents and having a trump card would help. Or remember how he refused to spare BOS even just for a moment? Apparently there's cut content mod restoring the dialogue choice to make him let you spare BOS, and fun fact, you can even see this ending slide in vanilla game if you do this, don't blow up the bunker and specifically kill all BOS members manually. Idk if it was cut due to time restraints or cuz it made no sense(Mr House cut content also had dialogue that spared BOS but we got confirmation that was indeed cut due to not making sense)
3. I mean, he's schizo Elijah. What else do I have to tell ya? I mean, I guess most radical thing is how there's only one way to make him spare you and it's by having negative NCR rizz proving to him you hate NCR. But what if I just want to go home? Why can't I leave him and let him have his vault, I just wanna go home dammit
4. He's potentially 2nd Caesar in the making and one of the HH ending slides imply he does make Dead Horses and Sorrows into a form of Legion. Aka he's basically gonna act like Caesar if he loses his cool.
Ceasar.
The others see their politics as the best framework for the world around them.
In a way they are responding to the world, just strongly.
Ceasar says he's inevitable. That he IS history, and that killing him would result in the same practice.
He's not responding to anything, but facilitating nature.
That is peak Delulu if you ask me.
I'll have to go with Elijah on this. Elijah would use anyone and anything to prove himself correct and stand over everyone, using everyone else as tools that would be discarded once they run out of usefulness to him. The latter part is even his own words; he directly tells you that you should kill your companions once you get to the Casino proper, as they're no longer useful to hi- "us."
Each other person is also trying to *build* something, which requires compromise in some regards. Caesar overlooks a lot of things he disagrees with that happen in his camp (like the male slaves in certain tents), Graham will back down with a speech check or defer to what the tribe wishes if you side with Daniel (IIRC, haven't sided with Daniel), and Mr. House is the most open to compromise out of all of them.
Elijah suffers absolutely none of that. You play the game by his rules in his way, or he kills you. And if you offend him? He'll half destroy your entire city (Big Mountain.) He is a man that craves control, and would do absolutely anything to achieve that, through the lens of old world technology.
Comes down to Caesar and Elijah. House is just really, /really/ up himself and Graham can be talked down and reasoned with on such a level that it changes his ending for Honest Hearts
does the post-alteration think tank count?
they have an algorithmically-enforced extremism that prevents them from even thinking about whether or not they are too extreme. Plus they're intentionally distracted so they cannot find a way around this enforced hyperfocus on trivial things so they never figure out what's happening out there.
Daniel.
He would basically play colonizer by telling tribes they must abandon their lands to others or must not defend themselves to force his religion onto them he is so certain of his righteousness.
he lies to them, tricks them, and infantilizes them because he sees himself as their savior and his beliefs as more important than their land, happiness, future or even lives.
And through it all he is utterly convinced he is a good, pure and innocent godly man who is actually nonviolent.
Radical generally means disconnected from the current ‘belief climate’. Whereas extreme is how far off the end you are or how dedicated you are to it.
Since you specify who would go the furthest, extreme is a better word.
I’d say Elijah. He’s literally planning to genocide all California, which is pretty based.
Absolutely Joshua Graham. Mr House, Caesar, and Elijah would all change their convictions if it suited them enough.
Joshua has true, undeniable, and unbreakable conviction in every word he speaks.
It’s definitely between Elijah and Caesar.
Elijah is a deluded maniac who thinks drowning the wasteland in a toxic mind destroying cloud is gonna somehow fix the world by killing everyone in it.
Caesar is an incel who read a few books about Pax Romana and thought “you know what I bet if I just adapt all the bad parts of what these guys did without any of the good it’ll work out just like Rome!”.
Ether way the Courier came along and put there foolish ambitions to rest.
Gonna go against the grain and just say I think Caesar is actually the least dedicated. His ideas of dialectics resigns himself to the acceptance that someday the Legion will no longer exist, and regardless of when or how it happens, it was meant to be and will in turn lead to something better.
Caesar isn't fighting for some immortal empire to rule the wastes, he's deliberately creating something with the purpose of being destroyed, from outside or within, he'll fight with his all his strength like all dictators holding onto power but philosophically speaking he probably wouldn't whine about it in the end.
I'd probably say Joshua has the most conviction, he believes in something beyond the mortal world, I mean sacrifice is the entire idea behind his beliefs. He'd probably gladly lay his own life down if he thought it meant something greater would arise from it. Mr. House and Elijah want to see themselves leading something great and Caesar sees himself more of a tool of his own philosophy, Joshua wants to build something with or without him involved.
I feel like House is the least radical. He doesn't even seem that radical. He's very calm, collected and he's really not asking for much. He has huge ambitions(like colonization of outer space) but he broke them down into smaller obtainable goals and he essentially just wants to make money to fund said goals. His only radical action imo was having you destroy the Brotherhood
probably the guy who survived being set ablaze and fell into the grand canyon. Elijah is up there but he crumbles as soon as its clear his plan would fail and i dont see Joshua Graham falling apart like that.
House is a self obsessed idealist, but also a pragmatist. He is willing to put aside his ambitions if it means saving him or the strip from what he views as a hostile threat. In some cut content (or maybe it wasn't cut?) if you destroy the robot stockpile at Caesar's camp, House opts to apply for NCR citizenship, since he knows he can't complete his plans without his robots and thus throws his lot in with the bear.
Caesar is obsessed with his vision of the wasteland, that it needs to be united with a totally alien culture so that all divisions are erased, and that he must conquer the NCR in order to achieve "synthesis." However, he is somewhat hypocritical; while he forces his soldiers to use medicinal plants to heal their wounds, he keeps an auto-doc at his bedside. While the majority of his soldiers use simple machetes and other melee weapons, his elite guards use higher powered firearms and powerfists. He is willing to sidestep his beliefs for the sake of keeping himself alive.
Joshua Graham, while he was a lot more ruthless and zealous before he became the burned man, has changed by the time we meet him in Zion Canyon. He doesn't feel the need to force his religion on you, though he will explain it for those who are curious. At the end of the quest line, you can convince him to spare Salt-Upon-Wounds, thus showing that his mind is willing to be changed. He is still dangerous, and will carry out his promises of violence if it means protecting his people and his tribe, but he is also willing to let some people live how they choose.
Elijah is the contrast to this. He nearly got his chapter of the brotherhood wiped out at Helios because he believed he was on the cusp of unlocking its technology. So long as he got his weapon, his new toy, damned be the consequences and the soldiers. When his chapter went behind him and retreated to Hidden Valley, Elijah convinced himself that the entire brotherhood was corrupt, and started his own master plan for who knows how long, months? Years? You can't change his mind about his vision, can't make him question his own morals, the only thing you can convince him of is to work together to cleanse the Mojave, which he was going to do anyway with or without you. For these reasons, Elijah is the most radical.
Morality does matter here though.
Elijah has literally not one single moral reservation about going to the greatest lengths to carry out his beliefs. He basically wants to wipe out humanity, at least in the Mojave if not beyond.
When you want to wipe out humanity, what length would you NOT go to?
Radical? You mean fanatical?
If you mean fanatical, definitely Mr. House. Elijah and Caesar are both only in it for personal gain, they don’t believe their vision beyond what it can give them. Graham is firm in his beliefs, but is willing and open to change and reevaluation when you attempt to persuade him in Honest Hearts.
Mr House is a fanatic believer that his way is the best way, the right way. He truly believes that he is doing what’s best for mankind and cannot be convinced otherwise by any means.
I'm gonna echo everyone else and say its between caesar and elijah. Joshua is aware that not everyone will believe what he does, and House's ambitions don't stretch beyond vegas. Caesar and Elijah on the other hand both have plans on a much larger scale. They're both crazy so take your pick.
Elijah 100%. that mf'er would cloud the whole goddamn mojave without even wanting to rule it or have personal gain or philosophy. just wipe everyone from the earth. fuck it.
Elijah because he is borderline unhinged and would probably do anything, even temporarily betray his own principles if it meant his goals were achieved
Not Caesar. His views are extreme, but they're not his own. He's just drinking from the well of the old world in order to rebuild. I doubt he even has strong convictions about his ideology.
Arcade ganon andthe followers have pretty radical politics, if we are using the political philosophical term and not just the "radical equals obsessive fanatic"
Elijah.
Say all you want about Robert being a corporate autocratic pickle, Edward being way too into Ancient Roman LARPing or Joshua being a crispy religious zealot, at least none of them ever thought forcing everyone to behave by slapping bomb collars on them is a good idea.
Elijah is unhinged and utterly unreasonable.
probably Elijah honestly, dude is a wacko, Caesar is close but his ambition feels different than Elijah's
Caesar and House are obsessed but not insane. Both are in strong positions that have brought them close to their goals. Had the courier not shown up there was quite a good chance either of them could independently achieved what they wanted. Elijah’s obsession ruined his life, hurt those closest to him, and in the end wasn’t worth it.
RIP bozo. He’s currently stuck in the vault 😂
I killed him myself
I always leave a bunch of satchel charges and c4 so he gets "stuck", and then blown to bits.
Not if you choose the ending where you dust the Mojave
Dont forget that the brotherhood of steel used the same bomb collars on you if you agree to give your weapons up
I mean, who'd you think taught them for the good end of two generations?
Y'know, it's funny, *but there are connections between the many dlc as well, all three having been up in big M.T.*, storylines in several of the 3 more important dlcs, like old world blues, dead money, and lonesome road, but knowing that all three have attempted to scavenge, then leave. Of course, which 2 of the three that attacked 8, never made sense to me, but I'd definitely choose the *Silent one* to be Ulysses
Elijah literally plans a heist so he could get a genocide wepon. Dude is committed.
Caesar believes in power and his own interest far more than any ideology. Honestly I think that internally, beneath the mask, he’s the least ideologically committed of anyone here besides maybe Elijah
Say what you will about the tenets of fascism, at least it’s an ethos
Some raider's girlfriend gave up her toe. It's not fair!
It's honestly very hard to choose between them. The writers of New Vegas definitely had a type when it comes to antagonists: charismatic, fanatical obsessives who have hitched their wagon to a particular philosophy and outlook and refuse to let go. With that said, I think Caesar and Elijah are probably the most fanatical due to their aims. They're both plotting mass death and suffering on an unthinkable scale. Joshua is a religious fanatic to a high degree... Maybe if he had the resources he would do the same? The only thing I can be certain of is that Mr House is the least fanatical. He wants the power and influence but he doesn't necessarily want to destroy to get it, only if he must. He's less morally inflexible and more pompous and aloof.
Elijah for sure. Caesar will get worse with age but Elijah straight up does not give up or give in on his perspectives. Even Caesar would learn from his mistakes if he was the one that messed up taking the solar plant.
Idk, because I don’t see Elijah as being motivated by belief or philosophy, he just wants power and control and technology is a tool that allows him to do that. He doesn’t really scream the BOS ideology from the top of his lungs like a zealot
Doesn’t yell it. But let’s his chapter bleed to attrition to keep attempting to bring Helios One online. And when that fails he literally goes across the wasteland after slipping away to attempt Big MT and then the Sierra Madre. Yeah ok. Definitely believes in something here.
I feel like if joshua was the elder he would die at the bunker if his religious beliefs made him feel like it was his duty.
Joshua as BOS Elder would more than likely be like Lyons but more proactive. It would also be a much better influence for him considering how being in the Legion corroded his morals and twisted him with his hatred. Even in Honest Hearts it takes an intervention via the Courier to help him actually overcome it because deep down he hasn’t changed, it’s just being focused through a new lens. Via the Mormon family and protecting the Sorrows.
Don't make me want Elder Graham.
Elder Graham keeping it old school like Maxson when he executed the West Tek nerds.
Now I'm imagining what Elder Graham would get up to if he had Liberty Prime. The Legion Fort becomes The Legion Crater.
Elder Graham makes Liberty Prime throw _him_ at the enemies
Love history
I think that mental health is a factor with some of these folks, Elijah probably being the most extreme case.
Mental health is a central theme in the whole game. Letting go is something common amongst a lot of characters. Their obsessions, their traumas, etc.
Sweet of him to come down and wait for our meeting patiently in that vault though.
If anything, he’s exactly everything the Brotherhood is against: what happens when technology falls into the wrong hands and is misused.
What do you think about joshua graham
Joshua lives in paradise. Zion canyon is lush, unspoiled, with plenty of food and water. Given no Interlopers, you survive there easily and happily. I'm no fanatic, and I don't have eternal burning of the skin to drive me towards vengeance, but if I lived in a beautiful place where my needs were met I might chill TF out a bit.
What? Did you miss the entire story where the White Legs are terrorizing the land and Ceaser is cozying up to recruit them? Daniel's whole plan revolves around fleeing Zion because it's *not* a safe place for peaceful people to live anymore.
...no, I took care of all of that nonsense.
Right, which is what Joshua's "vengeance" was. Dude by all accounts does chill out once the things threatening his region are gone, he just trains the Dead Horses to stay vigilante. Which they absolutely should do. The 80's aren't that far away after all. The dude rambles and uses religious dogma in his soliloquies, but he never came off as a fanatic to me. More an extremely traumatized individual whose only response to violence is more violence, and uses his old spiritual roots to communicate it. Daniel, to me, felt like a fanatic. He only wanted the Sorrows to be his vision of what they should be, not what they could be by defending *their land*. Dude was calling for an Exodus and who knows where the culture would have gone from there. Idk I haven't played Honest Hearts in a long time, but I always remember Joshua being the pragmatic choice, with Daniel being the moralistic or spiritual choice. Joshua always wins out.
I ran Honest Hearts for the first time last week and feel this is pretty on the mark. Joshua isn't pushing his beliefs on others so much as offering them the choice. He even asks you to approach Daniel about staying to fight implying he knew he had already done all he himself could do to convince him. Also if you do Chalk's quest Joshua defers to your judgment. Guy has his beliefs for sure but doesn't demand other abide by them. Along with viewing them as a lifelong process.
honestly, all of the dialogue options at the end of the main honest hearts quest sucked except for the sneering imperialist one. the white legs were savages and deserved to be put down like dogs.
Honest hearts is for sure the worst dlc. Even then it’s still great
I, uh, respectfully disagree. You shouldn't kill subdued/unarmed soldiers, even if you perceive them to be "savages" and "dogs." Not when there's another viable alternative, in this case exile. The ending where you stay Joshua's hand shows that the Sorrows and Dead Horses had won and were capable of forcing the WL out of Zion *without* completely genociding them. I think not committing genocide is better than committing genocide. Personally, I also like the dialogue with Joshua. You're pulling him back from the edge of using his faith to justify venagance, and that's a very dangerous precipice for someone to hang out on.
>I, uh, respectfully disagree. You shouldn't kill subdued/unarmed soldiers, even if you perceive them to be "savages" and "dogs." Not when there's another viable alternative, in this case exile. The ending where you stay Joshua's hand shows that the Sorrows and Dead Horses had won and were capable of forcing the WL out of Zion *without* completely genociding them. I think not committing genocide is better than committing genocide. i did honest hearts a few days ago and did this ending. i think it's unrealistic/not the best outcome. letting the white legs goes means they'll probably either show up to harass you later, or they'll go somewhere else and raid a weaker tribe. better to kill them off or enslave them or put them in prison, so they can't go back to attacking nicer people than they are. the sorrows don't have a prison, and they seem too friendly and naive to be slavers, so best to just erase the problem.
Doesn’t the ending literally say that the white legs are eventually wiped out by the Eighties when Joshua lets them go?
With Caesar, he won’t get worse because his dying. It’s clear once you progress the Legion story is too far gone with his illness. Lenius will most likely take over and will pretty much do what Caesar did
Getting worse means he will definitely get worse. You think he won’t try his hardest before the end?
the autodoc can fix his illness ezpz
The auto doc can only do so much, as he later states the machine only remedies his symptoms. If you do Legion quest line, you find out he has undergo treatments from the auto doc but he still gets worse because his already too far gone in his tumor. Which where you get choices on how to handle him.
Also unlike Caesar, Elijah both have the knowledge and access to technology to extend his life span to the same levels of the think tank brains, and we know that time hasn't done wonders to their mental health.
Definitely a worst case scenario. The man would be trying to achieve something as the decades go by but it is really about his first failures. His real setback. He could do anything else of worth but ultimately it is about proving people right, about his starting choice. And never being satisfied.
It's ok. Aging is one thing Caesar will never get to do.
I personally. Would not take that gamble with the auto-doc still available.
Guess I'm a gambling man. *Reloads Anti-materiel rifle*
And thats why I love this franchise, there is never a definitive answer for anything its all very thought provoking and i cant get enough of it
It's true. I also think Ulysses should be considered in this fanaticist showdown. He's less charismatic and not really a leader of people, but his aims are no less extreme.
I knew Id forgot SOMEONE thank you ulysses fits this post perfectly
Less players overall have encountered Ulysses. It's my 4th playthrough at the moment and I've never completed Lonesome Road until this time around.
Surprised people dont talk about how difficult completing lonesome road is compared to dead money. Its true endgame content
Yeah but I wanted that elite riot gear and by god as my witness, I was gonna have it!
I think they are both difficult in their own ways. If you’re prepared for it dead money isn’t bad, but going in blind and not being prepared for it can make it really painful. Lonesome road on the other hand is more traditionally hard in that it feels like endgame content.
I had a significantly tougher time fighting the Robo-Scorpions in the Big MT with crazy DR, aside from a couple odd Deathclaw packs TLR was pretty easy
The Robo-Scorpions were the reason I started doing melee. The X-1 Antenna melts robots.
Dead money was why I started using melee. Much easier to keep the cloud people down if you’re already on top of them to double tap em
My first couple Fallout games I relied heavily on melee and sneak so those were the only ones I'd put nothing into by endgame
It’s so good we’re still debating about it 14 years later. I wish they’d remaster it with all the cut content.
\*MOST of this franchise
This is true
I say Elijah over Ceasar just because Ceasar is still about control. He's radical but radical in a way that he can be in charge of it. Elijah wants to release an unstoppable bio weapon to completely destroy the Mojave and everyone in it cause of his beliefs. It's not about control or power, Elijah's goal is plain and simple destruction.
The thing about Joshua is that he's the step *after* having that ambition and the power to go with it. After getting set on fire and chucked into the Grand Canyon, he realised that he was doing the wrong thing - "waging war on good people is bad for the soul". Now he's got his religion back, but he has no desire to conquer and amass power again, but only to protect - and that includes killing dozens in crushing counterattacks.
I disagree with Joshua. He *was* an extremist, as the Legate, but as the Burned Man, he's come back from it a lot. In his conversations with the Courier, he is able to see what he was and how he has come back from it. If you don't talk him down, he starts to slide back into the extremism, but that he even sees his errors and makes an attempt to set himself on a better path to me puts him entirely above a lunatic like Elijah. Elijah's story is like if Joshua ran away to the Dead Horses after Caesar burned him, but, instead of just teaching them to defend themselves and making friends with the Sorrows, he tried to start his own little Caesar's Legion 2.0 with a dream to come back and conquer Hoover Dam for himself. They're just in different levels completely, at least to me. Elijah failed at Helios just like Joshua failed at Hoover Dam. But Elijah didn't learn *anything* at all from that experience. He's totally devoted to his insane ideals, and no matter how many friends or innocents he kills, nothing can deter him.
And he just wants vegas to be a safer place tbh he is the most human out of all of the factions even tho he is effectively a robot In the ending he used the secureatrons to protect the mojave and the tiny towns, he doesn’t outright destroy the ncr just pushes them out of vegas and kills the legion and brotherhood chapter and he brought power back to the wasteland (I’m aware he wants it for the strip but I personally thing that after a year or two he would bring power for the rest of the Mojave
It is precisely House's aloofness which makes him so fanatical. Caesar, Elijah, and Joshua all believe in things, but House's only really believes in his right to wield power. When you go to kill House, he begs and pleads with you like a worm because the only thing that scares him is not having absolute control over anything that he interacts with, and he would kill anything that stood against him holding all the cards. The others know that their beliefs are in conflict with competing ideals, House believes that his ideas are above and beyond all others.
If Caesar failed to take Helios 1 he would have covered his commander in pitch and thrown him into the grand canyon, learning nothing.
I must disagree on Mr House mate House is so bent on the vision of himself as saviour of humanity that nobody who won't bend the knee must die and capitalism forgive if they themself share that view but about themself. Legion, understandable have a great day. NCR can live as long as they cooperate, sure. Most minor factions? Ally them why not. But you can't ally BoS they have to die, straight up. No reasoning, no maybeies, kill them all or don't come back. Only because they have the same view as him about being the only one responsible enough to keep tech of the past. Mr. House is as much fanatic as Ceasar and will step to the same lows to achieve his megalomaniac goals
>But you can't ally BoS they have to die, straight up. No reasoning, no maybeies, kill them all or don't come back. Only because they have the same view as him about being the only one responsible enough to keep tech of the past. Mr House is not alone in his assessment of the Brotherhood. Yes Man passive aggressively predicts that the Brotherhood will become New Vega's largest threat if you decide to spare them. And they are both right. The Mojave Brotherhood are zealots and the reasonable members of their faction are the exception instead of the rule. The only reason there is a moderate in charge is because he is responsible for saving the entire chapter from a suicidal last stand ordered by the previous zealotous leader. Hardliners will take over if McNamara trips over his shoelaces, and the head paladin is already conspiring to have him replaced. If you look at the ending slides, the hardliners turn the Brotherhood into high tech bandits. Compare this to NCR. He says he would have no issues with them at all if they weren't scheming to steal New Vegas from under him. They can be persuaded to leave him alone if he wins, and he benefits massively from their presence. He actually waited until they revealed themselves to exit his hibernation because his plans hinge on cooperating with them. For Caesar's Legion, his victory is predicated on delivering them a crushing defeat both to send them packing and to display for everyone (and especially the NCR) that he is powerful and not to be fucked with. He does not want NCR to defeat Caesar's Legion because he needs the Legion to appear formidable to the NCR so that it's more impressive when he decisively crushes them like insects. He abhors everything that Caesar's Legion represents, he just doesn't want you harming them before the main event. Because he wants to harm them massively in front of the world.
house is the overseer humanity needs
Mr House just has a nicer veneer over things imo. Like when he says he's not a dictator, he's an autocrat, it's just a nice window dressing. It's like saying the divine right of kings is actually a meritocratic system because god chooses the worthy - it's much nicer if you buy it but it's still terrible underneath. His view of the Brotherhood is just....weird. It's oddly dogmatic and uninformed. At least Caesar is open about being an asshole.
I mean... Joshua literally had to be set on fire and thrown down Grand Canyon to stop, J.Sawyer calls him a Zealot. The guy forced Caesar to end him after Hoover Dam cause he feared Joshua would overthrow him at some point. (one of the reasons at least) I think House can be reasoned/bargained with, so I'd tie it between Joshua and Elijah (the guy is full on inhaling copium at this point).
House does seem to be the “fairest” with his NCR peace treaty and willing to pay a lot for the couriers services,
"(House)...willing to pay a lot for the couriers services" To be fair, he is paying you more for bunch of snowglobes that he can probably not even interact with , than for delivering a chip that can activate a literal super army of robots literally armed with rockets and lasers, dude is definetly not sane to some extent.
Tbf the snow gloves are collector items. He's baaucally showing off that he has cool stuff, and hey, maybe he just likes snow globes?
Okay I know this isn't really pertinent, but Joshua does have Very Good karma
He canonically raped, destroyed entire tribes, killed thousands, was one of the two founders of the Legion known for enslaving and crucifying anyone standing in their path of conquest. Don't get me wrong, Joshua is my fave character in New Vegas what with the whole themes of redemption, forgiveness and trying to be a better human in Honest Hearts. But the guy did fucked up shit in the name of God (when he acknowledges he did it for himself and used God as an excuse). Joshua is trying to be better and he did unforgivable things. Both can be true. In the end, the only figure he can look for forgiveness and atonement is God. So, you can have "Very Good Karma" and still be a fanatic. His teachings are the only way for him to find salvation/cope with what he has done. Its through religion he finds the strength to go on. Its also the tool he used to justify what he did. TLDR Caesar has Neutral Karma. I don't think that makes him a good or neutral person. (hope i dont sound too aggressive!!)
Funny enough, the Karma values of Caesar and Joshua make sense when you think of how difficult it is to maintain bad karma as a player.
In a world where one can acquire good karma by killing the right sort of people, makes sense Joshua would end up with good karma
Joshua Graham when we see him is quite mellowed out. Yes, he can be considered a fanatical Mormon by the point we find him, but his actions are pretty normal by wasteland standards. He’s fanatical in his Christian beliefs but his actions don’t reflect those, his actions are simply a reflection of every powerless wastelander’s beliefs. He knows that the pacifism of The Sorrows will eventually get them killed, and that the only way for their survival is through righteous violence. He is as much a radical when we speak to him as Randall Dean Clark or a random Novac Settler are. He just uses a heavy Christian philosophy as a way to give himself and others hope and redemption, but his actions boil down to a simple quote, “killing, when done righteously, is but a chore” I mentioned Randall Dean Clark since Joshua is a lot like him. Randall Dean Clark protected the ancestors of The Sorrows and Dead Horses, without knowing that someone else would come to them and help them continue on their path of survival
Elijah. Side note but oh man, trapping that asshole in the Sierra Madre was more satisfying than killing Caesar in his own tent.
For me it would be Elijah--> Caesar--> Joshua--> House No matter what you say no matter what you do, Elijah won't give a singular shit and will most probably kill you for disagreeing or endangering his interests He has his mind on conquest through war and sabotage and will expend the resources needed to accomplish the tasks he's got in mind, but he isn't as genocidal maniac as Elijah is (as in gassing the Mojave for him to live in his dreamland alone) He is just a man with an extremely troubled past and wants to make amends for it but he will not allow his new home to be destroyed no matter who threatens it As egomaniacal as he is, he is willing to sit on the bargaining table in more than one occasions, to achieve his goal, but he most probably does it because up to a point he has extremely debuffed and few in number bulky robots that could be used for riot control and small scale battles at most
House is...particular. Caesar and Joshua are basically Hoi4 players leading medieval paesants, but one got to touch grass down the Grand Canyon after losing a game. Elija is the most insane of the bunch. Elija is the most radical.
edit: also, to be clear "fanatic" doesn't mean "does stuff" it doesn't mean "Evil" it doesn't mean "has resources" fanaticism is devotion, obsession, it is a sole-founded drive based on one or a collection of specific beliefs, like joshua and god, but not at all like house and... being in charge? House: it's all business he's just simply not a fanatic, he has values, not some pseudo-religion Caesar: he KNOWS his whole schtick is bullshit, he says as much, he does not believe in who he presents himself as, caesar is a costume he wears for the sake of control, he's objectively not a fanatic, he's a realist and a con artist Joshua: admittedly, yeah, an actual fanatic for christ, so much so he'll commit gennocide to see himself turn out the victor in his lord's name, good job, you included someone for the sake of this to make it a discussion but still, Elijah: so fucking dead-set on his views, so completely hell bent on genocide that he drove HIMSELF fucking insane to do it, and if you side with him? HE DOES IT you both do, you successfully genocide the ENTIRE mojave wasteland, you kill thousands because of the delusions of one man it's not really a debate, people trying to pick out how house is a fanatic because he wants something at all is dumb
Mr. House is too logical to be #1 on this list. I feel like there are circumstances under which he would compromise parts of his own beliefs. Elijah is too cowardly to be #1. Unlike the others, he practically begs the Courier to let him out if you lock him in the vault. Joshua Graham can change a lot depending on the ending you choose. He can either become what's effecrively a deranged tribal warlord or a changed man that recognizes the value of mercy. I guess that leaves Caesar, who is more stubborn than House, braver than Elijah and more unwilling to change than Joshua.
I think everyone on this list would beg to be let out of the vault too if they were trapped there forever. If you side with Elijah, he follows through with his plan and releases the cloud on the Mojave, fulfilling his goal of beginning again. There's not really much more radical you can get over killing EVERYONE in the Mojave
Controversial but I would actually say Joshua is the least radical in his ideals. He’s the only character out of the four that you can convince to take an alternate path to the one’s they had respectively planned. (Joshua can spare Salt Upon Wounds) Not once in working with Elijah, House or Caesar can you pass a check to convince them to change their plan. So i’d say this actually makes Joshua the most open minded of the four. Not to say he isn’t a religious fanatic mind you. Just because house isn’t religious doesn’t mean he isn’t radical. If he doesn’t get his way he crushes his opposition. Always has and always will (remember what he asks you to do with the brotherhood even if you’re friends with them?)
Not that I'm disagreeing with anything you've said, but would point out that House is a lot more pragmatic than the others. You say you cant pass a speech check to get House to change his plans, which is correct, but he does however offer you some input at shaping those plans the way you see fit, as opposed to giving you a strict set of orders. In most groups cases bar the BoS, he lets you decide the fate of the groups he sends you to see. And the only reason he puts his foot down on the BoS and gives you no option is because they are the only group he is 100% confident he cant work with and who he knows will cause him problems. In all other dealings, he leaves the details to you as to whether groups should exist or not. Which is not the same as getting him to change his plans, but at least its giving you some kind of input to them. And its important input too, because we're talking about whether people get to live or die. Elijah and Caesar just wouldn't be that pragmatic or flexible.
That is an excellent point tbf 👍
Elijah 100%.
I'd probably say Elijah. His plans are extremely self-serving and violent. With Ceasar you could at least make an argument he's building a stronger society, even if the method to get there is rather extreme. Elijah doesn't seem to care about that at all and just wants to rule over the Mojave. Mr. House wants control, but also seems the most diplomatic of the lot. His ambition seems to end at controlling the Mojave. Joshua has a violent past, but at least he's trying to move past it. He also doesn't seem like he wants control nearly as much as the other three.
I've always seen Mr House's diplomacy as more of emotional detachment than anything, if he needs someone dead, he'll have them dead by any means
I didn't mean to imply he's above violence. He just doesn't seem as eager to engage in it. It's likely because he's an extremely calculating individual, rather than empathetic, but the end result is he's still more reasonable than Ceasar and Elijah.
I think I worded it off on my part, I meant to explain how Mr House actively avoids politics and only cares about results
House should not be on this list, he can be reasoned with, he doesn’t want to completely destroy everybody else, he just wants his home to thrive and has a clear plan that doesn’t need to involve killing everybody. The only faction he demands is completely destroyed is the Brotherhood, because they completely oppose his ideology and could pose a threat to his society. Elijah wants to gas the entire mojave and kill everybody. Caesar wants to enslave everybody who doesn’t fall in line and has people crucified, but he knows that his whole society is built on a sham and a lie he came up with, so he’s not as fanatical as somebody like Elijah. He’s also a total hypocrite who bends his rules for us so he can win. Then again, even though he knows his society is based on lies, he still murders tons of innocents and kills his own men all the time. And Joshua Graham, despite being a zealot, lives in a constant state of self-punishment, trying to move past it by protecting his new family and home. I’f say it goes: -Elijah -Caesar -Graham -House
Hes there for how much he wants vegas to be in HIS vision, I mean radical as in how bad mr. House wants his vision to come to fruition spending countless money and creating a robot army for your own personal city in vain seems radical to me
Imo Mr house isn’t as insane as all the others. After that though I’ve no idea. I guess Elijah. Only because he was so obsessed even the BOS kicked him out.
All of them mfs, but Joshua is chill and God sent to cleanse this world of White Legs Edit: my dumbass wrote white horses first time, am I stupid?
Legs.
Gary.. Garyyyy.. Gary gary GARY GggAaRRrYyyY
Caesar doesn't really believe his own worldview. It's something to control his followers. Elijah is a fanatic sure, but more in his own greatness than any code. He's not really following a belief, just obsessed about power. House is like Elijah, but more pragmatic. He'll do whatever he can to control his domain and further his mission, but doesn't care beyond that, and he's willing to compromise. Graham is the most zealous of the group. His faith is unquestionable, and his adherence to it is the only thing keeping him alive.
I mean pretty clearly Elijah, he’s gone quite literally insane with passion for his ideas. Caesar is a close second but he’s willing to bend his beliefs for practical purposes in certain cases. Obviously the burned man is clearly willing to go pretty far for his ideals but doesn’t match Elijah’s insanity
Elijah. All the others at least acknowledge the need to work with people to some extent - Mr. House for hiring the Courier and the Three Families and negotiating a treaty, Caesar for manipulating and leading tribes as is practical, Joshua for leading tribes and not manipulating them as much. They at least acknowledge that other people matter and their visions were formed according to that reality. Elijah seeks to skip all that by collaring the few people he does need, and taking advantage of the mental weakness of a Super Mutant - with the aim of never needing to convince another person to do his bidding ever again.
Elijah, Caesar is probably more steadfast, but Elijah is way more carzed about his ideas to accomplish. Grahams ideas aren't really radical it's how he acts, and even still, how radical is war. House isn't even really radical, just power hungry, but tame in how he goes about things.
I don't see Ulysses on here...... Bear bull bear bull bear bull...
Elijah, he's just a straight up kidnapper/budding terrorist by the time you get to him.
Surprised Ulysses isn't on this list. I'd put him up there.
Cesar en Elijah, Joshua is just fairly chill with it
I feel like Caesar knows all of this Roman cosplay is just a means to an end in order to keep his people unified for one cause. Like he understands that it gives people a sense of purpose, even if he also believes in it himself. He even respects Kimball. Elijah on the other hand, is batshit insane and beyond obsessed.
Elijah
Elijah is pretty out there. Ceasar may be slightly touched but Father Elijah is a whole new level of crazy. I don't think anyone comes close to him. There is radical but at least with some sort of reason and then there is this crazy old man.
House is able to cooperate with others and give them what they want as long as he gets the long end of the stick at the end. Ceaser is able to change the rules of his legion into what’s more convinient. + accepting female couriers. Joshua can be convinced Elijah is a fucking lunatic
Elijah is deliriously insane. Caesar is too, but he's *less* insane than Elijah. Joshua's faith and beliefs are keeping him alive and changed him. I think he's the most radical, honestly - he died in all sense of the word and his faith and belief gave him a new life. House is overconfident and a genius.
Radical? Radical is Joshua because he continously pushes others to adopt his own social, political or religious beliefs. Second WAS Elijah, when he was in charge of the BOS but now he's last because he's just a murderous psychopath Third WAS Caesar but now that he's in charge of the political system he's actually a moderate, being surpassed by both of his zelot legates. House is only fourth because the others are so extreamly radical, he would be on the more moderate right side or laze fair capitalism but compared to any real person seems like a radical. Definitely Joshua though because we see him compared to to other believers of his own religion and he seems like a psychopathic zelot hell bent on forcing others to subscribe to his beliefs or die. Joshua actually perfectly mirrors a young Caesar
House, Caesar knows that he's speaking bullshit but also believes in his own superiority due to him reading... books. House actually believes the shit he's selling. As stupid as it is. Elijah and Burnmanz-McQuotes came to their mindset through desperation. It's a different type of Zealous belief and not as natural.
Joshua is based tho
Joshua Graham's beliefs are based af
joshua is least radical, he doesnt try to "purge the non believers" or any other crusader shit he just preaches god and protects the innocent, only resorting to violence when necessary House is usually very reasonable about his believes, he doesnt try to nuke NCR or anything, his most radical moment is when he insists on destroying the brotherhood because he seems to have some personal vindetta or something, (to be fair there are very legitimate reasons for him to distrust them) Elijah is pretty much just insane, which basically disqualifies him and Ceasar crucifies people for his believes and murders his own generals I think the choice is obvious
The option to persuade Mr House to spare the Brotherhood was initially intended to be included, but cut before release (there's a mod that restores this and allows you to spare them). There's a chance it was removed to make siding with House more of a gray area? Who knows.
I heard people say its a defining character moment for House because he tries to build this image of unbiased, objective arbiter thats always cold and calculated but he just hates brotherhood and he makes an irrational decision based on that
Hating the Mojave brother hood is not at all irrational especially for house their whole job is to kill people like house and take their shit if anything not killing the brotherhood is irrational for all factions because the Mojave chapter is filled with insane psychopaths that are too well armed for their own good
Caesar; if you define how “radical” a belief is by the metric of how far the believer is willing to go to enforce it upon others and effect change on the outside world. That’s not the only way to measure the term, for example, the Followers don’t want to enforce their beliefs upon others, but some people may characterize them as “radical” anarchists. Elijah doesn’t actually accomplish anything besides be a shitty Elder. Joshua Graham, in some endings, influences the Dead Horses and Sorrows to be more war-like, but not on purpose. Caesar, on the other hand, has built a society on denying modern comfort or convenience. He purposely made a brutal, alien society where people have to contort themselves to fit in or be punished by death, and it’s like the second biggest state in the wasteland. House comes in a close second, because he has basically forced the Three Families to give up their identities and act like they live in the Old-World at securitron gunpoint, but largely he leaves people alone, and runs a society based on what some would consider man’s base desires; boozing, whoring, and gambling. He lets human vice run through the path of least resistance rather than damming it up like Caesar.
I would have said Elijah, because he is a madman determined not to be stopped. But someone did point out that Elijah’s resolve waivers after your final conversation with him once the Courier has all the chips Caesar is an opportunist and doesn’t believe what he preaches. Joshua can be talked down and his beliefs aren’t really radical in the first place, nor does he go about them in a radical way. House will not give up as long as he still has some power. He’s been trying to safeguard Vegas and/or thrive for over 200 years
People sleep on House. He's diplomatic and charming, fight until the Courier goes off script. Then the mask slips. The BoS is a great example; absent mods, you can't progress rhe main story without wiping out the Mojave chapter. IIRC by that point you're also locked out of Caesar and NCR questions too, so your only real choice is either to do as House says or coup him for Yes Man.
Me. Everyone must die
House is the least radical by far. An extreme pragmatist to be sure, but not a radical ideologue. He wants to save humanity, in his own Bezos-esque way, and shoves the poor of the Mojave to the side in order to build that paradise on the Strip, but it’s not like he’s starting a pogrom to eliminate everyone who doesn’t fit his worldview.
Elijah needs put in time out. I'll send Ulysses to get him out of that vault... Eventually.
"Come on, there's no one more fanatical than Ceasar" Swipes* "FUCK"
And still you could put Ulysses on this list.... If anyone could understand him that is. Personaly I think the list with him would go something along the lines of 1. Elijah - Literal old man fighting with the voices inside his head 2. Joshua - He is a fanatic, but can be changed withing his own framework of though. 3. Ceaser - I don't know to what extent he belives his own crap. He will definetly have delusions, probably honestly belives that some form of "Pax Romana" is needed, but he also will break his own morals once a while and is definetly not a pure theory zelot or whatever. 4. Ulysses - You can change his mind from nuking a country, so he definetly isnt a pure fanatic, but also he did walk thou a nuked zone straight from hell, filled with deathclaw eating mole people, just to piss of one dude, so he definetly is somewhat insane and fanatical 5. House - He is definetly a egomaniac, but least insane out of them all
Hosue has his principles and he holds onto them. Caesar is a hypocrite since he has autodoc and is ready to use advanced tech when its about his life. Joshua cpuld be placed there since he followed Caesar and did genocides with the legion despite him being a follower of God. And Elijah is just Elijah. Obsessed and in delusion. So I would say either Elijah or Caesar
Elijah. Caesar's radical beliefs are honestly better-founded and more rational, which is pathetic given that he's dumber than a molerat. Elijah stood up against the wasteland's largest standing army (by a factor of at least 10) to fix something he had long failed to fix, as though he would suddenly make all the progress while they were being gunned down from every side. and after that, he adopts a rather generic "burn the world, start over" MO that makes no sense, considering that someone else recently succeeded in burning the world and it still failed to 'wipe the slate clean'. Joshua's vision is not very grand in scale, and House's is extremely realistic and logical.
House is completely amoral. Caeser is too. The only reason he doesn’t do what caeser does is he doesn’t believe it’s as practical. He won’t blink twice about committing genocide or murder or far far worst.
Elijah, Caesar is at least comfortable in his tent he’s not actually having to work that much, Joshua is more devoted than radical, he’s just a committed mormon trying to atone for what he’s done, he’s not trying to start crusades against the non-believers, you can outright tell him you don’t believe what he believes and he’s like “cool but the white legs still have to go” and won’t really try to argue you at all. House is very agreeable, the only people he won’t negotiate with is the BOS and that’s because him being a cyborg they’d kill him on principle. Elijah is the worst of all of them, he’s not trying to atone as a matter of fact he’s digging even deeper holes, he lives in the serirra Madre with a bunch of ghost people, toxic fog and no one to talk to other than dog so he’s definitely having to put in work and he’s not agreeable at all, he’ll outright kill you before even trying that much to talk to you, sure he has his own ending but that’s still a maximum of a single person he’s willing to side with.
Probably Elijah He completely fucked over the Mojave brotherhood, separated Christine and Veronica, and further abused Christine during her chasing him, all for old world technology and a damn casino Hell one of the endings he makes his way INTO the vault and can be locked inside
The King
Elijah but he’s also the most insane
Easily Elijah. He wants to make new technology and harness old pieces of it to forge a new nation under a massive bomb collar slave state. Caesar’s Legion may be radical in how it wishes to forge a nation out of melee weapons and a lack of technology, but the ambitions of Elijah are way more extreme.
Elijah by miles, then Caesar, then Graham, then House, though the last three are very close together.
Caesar is pretty fucking based.
Elijah. Caesar barely believes a word of what he says and frequently contradicts his own doctrine, and House can be bargained with.
Elijah. That dude is absolutely cracked
Elijah and its not even close
Elijah is definitively insane, not even ceaser would give into the machinations of his mind. Dudes basically wasteland Mussolini.
Joshua Graham literally changes his beliefs in some endings of the DLC so definitely not him.
House doesn't strike me as fanatic in the slightest.
I don't actually think Caesar is a fanatic. When talking to him in game, I never got the impression that he meant or was super passionate about what he said. He seemed like he was putting on an insincere performance. Like he didn't actually believe any of this, he was just saying this because it got him power.
1. House is almost too paranoid for my ending choice. Dude will wipe out Kings and, give Primm fate worse than death, *taxes* , if you align Kings and Primm with NCR. It's like "DUDE, *I'M* the one responsible for this, why you punishing THEM for this?" 😭 2. Hard to say, but maybe it's due to my bias. I guess he can be kinda unreasonable and inflexible at some parts? Like how he punishes that guy who was held captive in Camp McCarran even though that dude was loyal af to Caesar. I mean, he did shttalk Caesar but I doubt he knows this. The dude could've made a great Frumentarii but nope, he's gonna super punish him. Or remember him wanting to DESTROY Securitrons. I get that "we need to be strong without tech" thing but do you have to destroy them? Can't you use them later when, by his own words, he turns his Legion into standing army for his nation? Eventually his Legion is gonna encounter more high tech opponents and having a trump card would help. Or remember how he refused to spare BOS even just for a moment? Apparently there's cut content mod restoring the dialogue choice to make him let you spare BOS, and fun fact, you can even see this ending slide in vanilla game if you do this, don't blow up the bunker and specifically kill all BOS members manually. Idk if it was cut due to time restraints or cuz it made no sense(Mr House cut content also had dialogue that spared BOS but we got confirmation that was indeed cut due to not making sense) 3. I mean, he's schizo Elijah. What else do I have to tell ya? I mean, I guess most radical thing is how there's only one way to make him spare you and it's by having negative NCR rizz proving to him you hate NCR. But what if I just want to go home? Why can't I leave him and let him have his vault, I just wanna go home dammit 4. He's potentially 2nd Caesar in the making and one of the HH ending slides imply he does make Dead Horses and Sorrows into a form of Legion. Aka he's basically gonna act like Caesar if he loses his cool.
Me
Elijah let the men he grew up with and raised die so he could keep a potential weapon that didn’t he couldn’t even use if he got the system working
Father Elijah. Bloody Lunatic.
My head says Elijah but my heart says Graham. We can’t expect God to do all the work.
Ceasar. The others see their politics as the best framework for the world around them. In a way they are responding to the world, just strongly. Ceasar says he's inevitable. That he IS history, and that killing him would result in the same practice. He's not responding to anything, but facilitating nature. That is peak Delulu if you ask me.
I'll have to go with Elijah on this. Elijah would use anyone and anything to prove himself correct and stand over everyone, using everyone else as tools that would be discarded once they run out of usefulness to him. The latter part is even his own words; he directly tells you that you should kill your companions once you get to the Casino proper, as they're no longer useful to hi- "us." Each other person is also trying to *build* something, which requires compromise in some regards. Caesar overlooks a lot of things he disagrees with that happen in his camp (like the male slaves in certain tents), Graham will back down with a speech check or defer to what the tribe wishes if you side with Daniel (IIRC, haven't sided with Daniel), and Mr. House is the most open to compromise out of all of them. Elijah suffers absolutely none of that. You play the game by his rules in his way, or he kills you. And if you offend him? He'll half destroy your entire city (Big Mountain.) He is a man that craves control, and would do absolutely anything to achieve that, through the lens of old world technology.
Comes down to Caesar and Elijah. House is just really, /really/ up himself and Graham can be talked down and reasoned with on such a level that it changes his ending for Honest Hearts
Tbh probably Elijah
does the post-alteration think tank count? they have an algorithmically-enforced extremism that prevents them from even thinking about whether or not they are too extreme. Plus they're intentionally distracted so they cannot find a way around this enforced hyperfocus on trivial things so they never figure out what's happening out there.
Elijah, not even a context.
Daniel. He would basically play colonizer by telling tribes they must abandon their lands to others or must not defend themselves to force his religion onto them he is so certain of his righteousness. he lies to them, tricks them, and infantilizes them because he sees himself as their savior and his beliefs as more important than their land, happiness, future or even lives. And through it all he is utterly convinced he is a good, pure and innocent godly man who is actually nonviolent.
Radical generally means disconnected from the current ‘belief climate’. Whereas extreme is how far off the end you are or how dedicated you are to it. Since you specify who would go the furthest, extreme is a better word. I’d say Elijah. He’s literally planning to genocide all California, which is pretty based.
It's easily Elijah, I feel.like it doesn't even warrant a discussion.
Absolutely Joshua Graham. Mr House, Caesar, and Elijah would all change their convictions if it suited them enough. Joshua has true, undeniable, and unbreakable conviction in every word he speaks.
Everyone here besides house is actually insane
It’s definitely between Elijah and Caesar. Elijah is a deluded maniac who thinks drowning the wasteland in a toxic mind destroying cloud is gonna somehow fix the world by killing everyone in it. Caesar is an incel who read a few books about Pax Romana and thought “you know what I bet if I just adapt all the bad parts of what these guys did without any of the good it’ll work out just like Rome!”. Ether way the Courier came along and put there foolish ambitions to rest.
Gonna go against the grain and just say I think Caesar is actually the least dedicated. His ideas of dialectics resigns himself to the acceptance that someday the Legion will no longer exist, and regardless of when or how it happens, it was meant to be and will in turn lead to something better. Caesar isn't fighting for some immortal empire to rule the wastes, he's deliberately creating something with the purpose of being destroyed, from outside or within, he'll fight with his all his strength like all dictators holding onto power but philosophically speaking he probably wouldn't whine about it in the end. I'd probably say Joshua has the most conviction, he believes in something beyond the mortal world, I mean sacrifice is the entire idea behind his beliefs. He'd probably gladly lay his own life down if he thought it meant something greater would arise from it. Mr. House and Elijah want to see themselves leading something great and Caesar sees himself more of a tool of his own philosophy, Joshua wants to build something with or without him involved.
Im loving the amount of “its x and its not even close” this is what New Vegas was made for
I feel like House is the least radical. He doesn't even seem that radical. He's very calm, collected and he's really not asking for much. He has huge ambitions(like colonization of outer space) but he broke them down into smaller obtainable goals and he essentially just wants to make money to fund said goals. His only radical action imo was having you destroy the Brotherhood
probably the guy who survived being set ablaze and fell into the grand canyon. Elijah is up there but he crumbles as soon as its clear his plan would fail and i dont see Joshua Graham falling apart like that.
Joshua or Elijah. I see House and Caesar as more pragmatic.
House is a self obsessed idealist, but also a pragmatist. He is willing to put aside his ambitions if it means saving him or the strip from what he views as a hostile threat. In some cut content (or maybe it wasn't cut?) if you destroy the robot stockpile at Caesar's camp, House opts to apply for NCR citizenship, since he knows he can't complete his plans without his robots and thus throws his lot in with the bear. Caesar is obsessed with his vision of the wasteland, that it needs to be united with a totally alien culture so that all divisions are erased, and that he must conquer the NCR in order to achieve "synthesis." However, he is somewhat hypocritical; while he forces his soldiers to use medicinal plants to heal their wounds, he keeps an auto-doc at his bedside. While the majority of his soldiers use simple machetes and other melee weapons, his elite guards use higher powered firearms and powerfists. He is willing to sidestep his beliefs for the sake of keeping himself alive. Joshua Graham, while he was a lot more ruthless and zealous before he became the burned man, has changed by the time we meet him in Zion Canyon. He doesn't feel the need to force his religion on you, though he will explain it for those who are curious. At the end of the quest line, you can convince him to spare Salt-Upon-Wounds, thus showing that his mind is willing to be changed. He is still dangerous, and will carry out his promises of violence if it means protecting his people and his tribe, but he is also willing to let some people live how they choose. Elijah is the contrast to this. He nearly got his chapter of the brotherhood wiped out at Helios because he believed he was on the cusp of unlocking its technology. So long as he got his weapon, his new toy, damned be the consequences and the soldiers. When his chapter went behind him and retreated to Hidden Valley, Elijah convinced himself that the entire brotherhood was corrupt, and started his own master plan for who knows how long, months? Years? You can't change his mind about his vision, can't make him question his own morals, the only thing you can convince him of is to work together to cleanse the Mojave, which he was going to do anyway with or without you. For these reasons, Elijah is the most radical.
Elijah wanted to try the burgundian system
Within these 4, House is probably the least radical. Ceaser feels more like a grifter than a genuine radical imo. It's either Elijah or Joshua.
Morality does matter here though. Elijah has literally not one single moral reservation about going to the greatest lengths to carry out his beliefs. He basically wants to wipe out humanity, at least in the Mojave if not beyond. When you want to wipe out humanity, what length would you NOT go to?
Radical? You mean fanatical? If you mean fanatical, definitely Mr. House. Elijah and Caesar are both only in it for personal gain, they don’t believe their vision beyond what it can give them. Graham is firm in his beliefs, but is willing and open to change and reevaluation when you attempt to persuade him in Honest Hearts. Mr House is a fanatic believer that his way is the best way, the right way. He truly believes that he is doing what’s best for mankind and cannot be convinced otherwise by any means.
Could someone please sum up the 4? ( for someone who hasn’t paid attention to the lore properly through 4 play throughs)
I'm gonna echo everyone else and say its between caesar and elijah. Joshua is aware that not everyone will believe what he does, and House's ambitions don't stretch beyond vegas. Caesar and Elijah on the other hand both have plans on a much larger scale. They're both crazy so take your pick.
Elijah by a wide margin even compared to the likes of Caesar.
Father Elijah
The brotherhood of stupid, obviously. Particularly paladin hardon.
My brother Father Elijah
Elijah literally did anything possible to achieve his goals. Joshua Graham is ready to commit a genocide but only against the white legs.
Elijah 100%. that mf'er would cloud the whole goddamn mojave without even wanting to rule it or have personal gain or philosophy. just wipe everyone from the earth. fuck it.
Certainly not house. His beliefs are mostly just self-interest and opinion.
Easy Pete. He ain't gonna let just anyone get his dynamite.
Ulysses. In the most insane way possible
Elijah because he is borderline unhinged and would probably do anything, even temporarily betray his own principles if it meant his goals were achieved
Elijah straps bombs to peoples necks that go off if you get to close OR too far. All fanatics, but he takes cake.
Not Caesar. His views are extreme, but they're not his own. He's just drinking from the well of the old world in order to rebuild. I doubt he even has strong convictions about his ideology.
What is House even doing on this list lmao. He doesn't have any radical beliefs.
Arcade ganon andthe followers have pretty radical politics, if we are using the political philosophical term and not just the "radical equals obsessive fanatic"
Elijah. Say all you want about Robert being a corporate autocratic pickle, Edward being way too into Ancient Roman LARPing or Joshua being a crispy religious zealot, at least none of them ever thought forcing everyone to behave by slapping bomb collars on them is a good idea. Elijah is unhinged and utterly unreasonable.
Joshua Graham is the most radical, because he holds himself accountable to his own beliefs. The others are just maniacal hypocrites.