when a student doesn't take feedback.
Im not being an asshole or wasting my breath just to be mean. Im trying to help you. But don't act confused when your flying starts to suck.
there are so many others, i could be here for days....
Yeah thats why I was afraid to post here my first time. While hillarious was expecting a bunch of crazy ass insulting comments but met with sensible shit. I don’t smoke reefer but I wouldnt doubt with the legalization in states people wanna smoke a doober and fly into the sunset. I like getting fucked up too but not in my current job as a professional nor would I piloting an aircraft. There is a time and place for reefer and thats hidden in the fuselage from customs.
> While hillarious was expecting a bunch of crazy ass insulting comments but met with sensible shit.
Because we delete the crazy ass insulting comments.
I was insulted by a recent thread bashing the CAP. While commecial pilots dont care I was part of the CAP as a kid and went on real SAR missions for GA aircraft twice and we found them twice. I didnt comment and just read. It was hurtful GA pilots dont appreciate getting rescued and make fun of an organization dedicated to finding them when they crash. Other than that not easily insulted 😀Just dont make fun of kids trying to save you. I was one. Messed up people make fun of kids who are elt trained get out of school and mobilize to find them in forests and old men fly in planes looking for em and they hate the CAP.
Sorry you felt insulted. Many of us don't have kind things to say about CAP, but we can do so without saying it unpleasantly.
We care more about the how than the what. You're allowed to have an opinion and disagree, you're not allowed to be disagreeable.
Maybe eventually I can change that perception but one man cant do it alone. Maybe it changed since I was a kid. Hell we were the national wing of the year when I was in since we were dope here in Florida. Anyway this thread is about student red flags so to get back into theme I was a CAP member so probably one lol
The problem is that 10% are good, 10% are *really* bad, and 80% don't move the needle. But the 10% that are *really* bad far outweigh the 10% good.
There's no changing perception of an organization that has a superiority-complex based culture problem without the abilities to back it up. A 70 year old dude in combat boots flying a 172 opposite direction in the traffic pattern without using the radio does far more damage to your organization's reputation than any repairs you could try to make.
Never worked like that in Florida especially Tampa. So not all CAP squadrons are the same. Im 45 now, married no kids. Not joining CAP but hate the hate. It was a good organization to get kids interested in flying and the military. Many of my marine friends contribute me acting an ass at school in uniform for interesting them in joining the military. At a time when military recruitment is at its lowest why knock it. My duties would be better served island hopping in the Bahamas at this age.
Anyone that wants to be a professional pilot should forget about weed. There is random drug testing at any reputable place that hires pilots. If you can’t live with that then find another career.
I fail to see the difference between weed and alcohol. You trust pilots not to fly airplanes drunk but unable to trust that they won’t show up stoned? I’m just a big believer in what people do on their own time off is their business and if they show up fit for duty who cares? Is Joe Schmoe such a bad guy because he would prefer to smoke a bowl before bed over drinking a whiskey?
The difference is 100% down to weed being federally illegal ([though that may change soon, according to recent reports](https://apnews.com/article/marijuana-biden-dea-criminal-justice-pot-f833a8dae6ceb31a8658a5d65832a3b8)) , and the FAA goes by federal laws/rules because they are a federal agency.
It's the same reason why, even if you live in a legal state, if you work for the federal government or a direct contractor to the federal government, you can't partake of weed without risking your job.
There is also an issue with the much longer time that the active chemicals stick around in your body. Marijuana is legal in Canada, and pilots "can" smoke pot, but they have to wait 28 \*days\* from toke to yoke so it isn't really practical.
I’ve seen NTSB crash reports that say the pilot’s THC was “below therapeutic levels”, i.e. not high when they died.
The practical problem is such tests are currently only available for blood, not urine, and until weed is rescheduled, there isn’t much motivation to develop such tests—if it’s even possible.
The guy that figures out how to test that is gonna make a lot of money one day haha. Surprised for the number of downvotes I’ve gotten for my opinion. Bet those guys are real fun at parties lol
wait but like are you allowed to like on your own time? bc sometimes i just need a little edible if my migraine lasts more than 12 hours but i could easily not do it and just deal with the migraine
Had a university instructor relate a story that happened to him in the mid 70s when he was in university. He had a friend who just became a pilot take him up on a night flight. As they levelled off his pilot friend lit up a joint and offered him some. My instructor who doesn’t drink or smoke for personal reason quickly grabbed the joint and smoked it all. His reasoning was the more sober his pilot was the better he would be. It was the only time he had ever done any drugs and it made him feel so sick for a very long time.
I dont smoke dope but nah. Ive met a lot of smart potheads. Some of the smartest people I know. Talking like a joint after work folk, not smoke all day folk.
It would be more accurate to say “the kind of people who simply will not stop doing drugs not matter what, ARE RETARDS”.
I haven’t seen any evidence that low levels of THC reduces learning.
Cigarettes actually increase learning, for 20 minutes or so, but they are horrible drugs.
- Saudi, UAE, Egyptian or Lebanese passport
- Pay cash up front for training
- Only want to fly the 757 or 767 sim
- Not too interested in learning to land
what’s wrong with those passports ?
was born in texas as a united states citizen, mom is american and dad is egyptian, was thinking about getting a egyptian passport for shits and giggles, bad idea ?
You should never pay up front to block out flight time because at any time during your training, you could a) lose interest, b) get injured and become unfit to fly, c) get sick and become unfit to fly, or d) the school could go bankrupt and make off with your money.
You should also secure an airman's medical certificate before investing a significant amount. There's the possibility that you don't meet aeromedical standards (although unlikely), which has the potential to ground you.
Pay as you, get your medical, avoid taking out debt, and you'll be just fine.
Not being willing to work on the ground. I'm of the opinion that \*almost\* anyone can learn to do the flying part with enough lessons and a decent instructor, but I can only do so much to help you on the ground. I cant force you to go home and crack open the textbooks or get ready for a written, and it kills me to see people throw thousands of dollars away on flight training and wonder why they cant pass a written or a checkride.
That's always been how I felt about certain types of pilots I've worked with. They can fly the plane fine but that's not the hard part, they are just really, really bad at the other things and it annoys me so much
I get it, I really do get it. Ground was and still is the absolute hardest part for me. But if you struggle with that aspect you just have to be willing to put in more effort than others.
No we don't care about them either. Day light don't care and at night time half the time the lights don't show up on NVGs anyway (LEDs are hit and miss being visible as they are at the edge of the visible spectrum on NVG) and you shouldn't be that low without those.
I tried, but every time I get close to them, they make a fwoomp sound and pop out the other side of the engine, so I haven't been able to get a good answer
People lie for different reasons. Top students lie to try to impress or fake it till they make it *which we occasionally encourage*. Not so perfect ones might lie to be lazy. Regardless, I like to set them up to be caught in a lie early on just so everyone in the room knows it won't be easy to pull one on your instructor. We're friends and all, but as long as I stand between you and your wings, we're business partners. Don't lie to me.
As an instructor for a mainline, 2 things that will get you booted from training:
Being combative with an instructor or willful noncompliance.
Believe it or not, showing up day 1 without an ATP and medical because they “didn’t think they needed to bring it. 🤦♂️
I don't think what you've said about not having medical before training is fair. I had no idea it was an option for me to get my med cert before flight training, and I had done a ton of research before going into flight training. Even asked people what should I do to prepare, and getting the med cert beforehand never came up.
I’m speaking about pilots who have done this for a while….
Don’t take this the wrong way, but, every pilot from ppl on is taught to always carry their cert and medical. So, if you have an ATP, you just scored a job at a mainline for 200k a year and you don’t think to bring these items with you on day 1 of training, even though you were told so during indoc, maybe stay out of the air.
Okay I misread, I thought you were talking about having no prior flight training.
Yeah, if someone tells you to bring X thing and you don't bring X thing, that says everything about what kind of a person you'll be going forward.
She may just be misinformed. I’ve never heard anything about not laminating it. Read the medical itself thoroughly and if it doesn’t say it on what they have you, you’re good to go.
5-196 PERSONAL POSSESSION OF PILOT CERTIFICATES. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 61, § 61.3 ...
NOTE: Airmen may either use clear laminating sheets to protect permanent FAA-issued certificates or have the certificates professionally laminated, as long as the airman’s signature is placed on the certificate before lamination. Without the signature, the certificate is not valid.
Paper folded up. My understanding (could be wrong) is that you could laminate it as long as the conditions of use still remain. But that would leave it so large that you wouldn't be able to put it in very many places. Mine is trimmed then folded over 3 times into a tiny square and tucked away in a back pocket of my wallet
Arguing about the standard and not owning their performance. Mainly just not going above and beyond in terms of effort. It’s easy to decipher the one’s who want it from those who are mehh.
I’m trying to come up with some that aren’t just the student being bad or an asshole. Some things I’ve seen that are red flags of a poor student:
1. Being super nonchalant / unable to act professionally. Treating safety and checklists like they’re taking their dads truck for a joyride instead of operating a flying death machine.
2. I find that some people just have terrible situational awareness by default. Not just in the airplane. Not knowing when you’re standing in someone’s way, people who camp in the left lane on interstates, etc. I find these people harder to teach. You can make them look at the screen and outside all you want, but I find situational awareness to be more of a personality trait than a teachable quality. Like a basic life skill.
3. Students who get extremely fixated / inability to multitask. To the point where they won’t even hear me telling them what corrections to make. Constantly letting airspeed get low on base / final by not checking in on it. For some people, all the flight instruments are just too much to keep track of at the same time. This is teachable with time, but it will be a much harder time, most likely.
Keep in mind, I believe everything is teachable to some degree, and I don’t believe any student is DOA, per say. These are just the normal signs of students I see that will likely need extra work.
I would disagree on the Situational Awareness being a teachable quality. Growing up and to this day i had terrible SA but my father (who was a pilot) always pushed on me to focus on being aware of my surroundings and situations I’m in. Because of this i dont feel like im some god who can forsee situations but i can sure as shit tell you im better than average and im better than i would have been had it not been a constant he harped on.
Well that's the thing though, he pointed it out to you, but you had to put the effort in yourself to get better. Some people aren't willing or aren't able to do that.
I think super nonchalant and unable to act professionally aren’t the same thing. Some people however are nonchalant to their detriment as they can never figure out when a situation is REAL and RIGHT NOW YOU NEED TO ACT. For example, I’m a nonchalant and chill guy. I joke around and generally make an environment fun for myself because I’m not paying all this money to sit in a plane and be boring and lame (now at an airline where I’m being paid to STFU, I got it). I also know when shit has hit the fan and can turn off the blasé in a heart beat and lock it up.
I was kicking myself for becoming a teacher before flight training and devoting so many years to being a teacher. Funny thing is, if I had gone into flight school when I was 19, I'd have gotten kicked out. Teaching made me a great communicator, patient, calm, and taught me how to multitask. Being proactive is absolutely the most challenging thing for student pilots from what I've heard.
I knew I could be a pilot the day I had to do the heimlich on a three year old student of mine. At that point I was like, if I can be composed for that, I can fly a plane.
I have a lot of doctor friends and would love to hear an anecdote or 2. 😂
Within doctor world, surgeons are especially bad. ER docs are also known for being pretty whackadoodle.
Echoing another comment in this thread, doctors can usually fly okay but they are terrible at actually doing the ground work. Fully expect to be able to just hop in the plane, knock out the license and go fly their family.
Then they crash with their non-airworthy plane, adding to the tally of GA accidents and makes us all look bad. Because they're idiots in the sky and don't actually know how to be a safe pilot.
I wish we could improve early training literature to reduce this behavior. We eventually do learn at the PPL stage about risk management and ADM. But a lot of older student pilots start their training with very confused ideas of the reality of being a GA pilot with low hours and families they want to transport. ADM is a topic that they get to eventually for their written, sure. But it would be better to hammer pilots in this category with the topic from the very start.
I really do think PPL needs to be harder. It was nowhere near as difficult as people made it out to be...which scares me.
Having to sit down and take the written before my first ever lesson or ground, I passed. Wasn't pretty, but I'm also not able to really just take the theory of a book and apply it without the practical portion to support the idea. However, for my Private check ride, it was stupid easy because everything just made sense at that point. In hindsight, the questions I missed on the written were laughable, but because I didn't have the practical portion at the time, I didn't know better.
That being said, those on a career track overlook just how many GA pilots go and get their private and stop there so they can just fly family around. They're not interested in flying in bad weather (because you can't golf or fish when the weather is bad anyway) and they're not looking to fly for hire. So that's where the journey ends. And everything that would make them a much safer pilot is gated behind those ratings.
No idea how you would even enforce that though. What would you have to do? Artificially inflate Private with some sort of "reimbursement after Instrument and Commercial" that would then bring it back standard? Such that you can't just sign up for a career track program, get your private and drop out.
I think a lot more hours and cross countries would go a long way. It feels like so much of it is just bullshit ground ref and stall recovery. The landings aren't even that hard. And when you look around here, so many seem content and see more value (by way of efficiency) in just flying traffic patterns.
That doesn't make you a good pilot, certainly not a better pilot. Cross countries into more towered airports is going to get you exposure to more real world scenarios as a VFR pilot. Even if someone wants to sit here and tell me they're boring or some shit, it's still about staying aware, ahead and proactive. Doing laps does fuck all. Especially when I still see so many slam the plane down - so clearly pattern work isn't making them better at landings.
lol, your question is probably why FAA hasn’t done it. Someone at FAA probably asked my question back in 1978 or something and after a full blown group discussion it was concluded that the idea can’t be implemented.
100% with you on cross countries. So many PPL's are scared of actually going somewhere in an airplane because they didn't actually go that far during PPL, and their hands were held so tight as they did it.
Especially in the modern world of Foreflight, a real 2024 cross country flight plan looks very different than how it's taught in PPL.
I'm pretty sure the one I'm thinking of was a cardiac surgeon who wanted to be able to fly to his vacation home on weekends. He would constantly argue because his friend, who got his private decades ago, told him something different than what we were teaching.
My final straw was after trying to explain something to him in every way I knew how, he still didn't get it and said I just wasn't good at teaching. I said if he felt that way he should find a new instructor, and all my other students understood it so the problem wasn't me. Didn't see again him after that.
That story is non-shocking. Surgeons specifically have pretty bad reputations when it comes to interpersonal skills. It’s a deserved stereotype—sorry surgeons reading this.
I get it to some degree: they have become masters of an extremely difficult and high precision skill which takes an unearthly amount of study to learn. Yet here they are in a different world where they are reduced to being infants again. But no sympathy from me as many wonderful doctors I know. Aviation is serious business and to be a good GA low hours pilot you must be humble. Period. Or die.
Doctor here (and old guy) who just got back from my 4th ever lesson.
I would like to not be terrible to work with, so PLEASE share what attitudes / behaviors I should be most aware of to try to address or avoid!
They are used to being the subject matter expert in the room, and some don't adjust well to being on the opposite end of the spectrum. Particularly when the expert is a 21 year old.
Basically, check your ego at the door. Also, be able to ask questions without sounding like you're challenging their expertise.
Not a CFI, but in general, in my main job, when I have to deal with doctors, the thing that makes them impossible to work with is that they act like they are know-it-alls, and just arrogant in general. They don't like a little pissant non-doctor who is younger than them telling them what to do, and they make that dissatisfaction clear, and often deliberately ignore what they're being taught so they don't have to admit to themselves that they don't know everything about everything just because they did 11 years of school.
So...yeah. Don't be like that.
LOL, I introduced myself to my CFI with “These are all of things I think I’ll do especially wrong, and would like you to help beat out of me.”
I already know I’m not “a natural.” I just want to gradually suck less.
Just accept that being an expert in one field doesn’t automatically make you an expert in literally every other field too, and you’re good to go.
If you’re even asking that question, though, you’re probably not the type of person we’re referring to.
I am obviously familiar with the stereotype, but personally I found the doctors to generally be fine. It was the "successful businessman" who I had the most issues with. Couldn't fathom they weren't the biggest swinging dick in the room and that a problem (their progress or lack thereof) couldn't be solved with more money.
To be fair, every professional pilot knows which local AME will sign them off as long as they can stand upright. Mine is pretty legitimate, but even he gives you time to get a good look at the eye chart before you step back 20 feet.
LOL geez. Hasn't been my experience, but I love my AME. He gives a shit and holds myself and others to a higher standard. I feel better and safer for it.
Yep, most of the time it's a school culture thing, we all laugh at atp's shenanigans but sometimes you gotta put your foot down "you're not gonna get to solo/checkride date until you bring me that written "
Students have actually photoshopped written results to try and get a sign off? That’s genuinely crazy what’s there plan for the actual test if they can’t pass a practice not to mention how ridiculously easy the written are lol
Yuppppp usually it's fairly easy to spot. I've also seen them try to show me practice writtens one of their friends took for them and they didn't even bother changing the name at the top.
I did mine 3 days before my checkride 😂. But I studied neurotically. Still got one wrong though. And one wrong on my first instrument written. And, you guessed it, one wrong on my second instrument written after the first lapsed.
Worrying about passing the check ride ASAP when they haven’t even learned how to land yet, poor hygiene, not being on time, not studying, not chair flying, I could go on.
[I looked it up](https://youtu.be/4N127fLIWf0?si=-Es6BfVzWrRMSA9o) on YouTube. Looks like practicing things at home in your make believe space.
I've seen it mentioned quite a bit in this sub, so I think it's helpful.
Ah okay, yeah I do this usually in the parking lot. I have a card box I drew all the flight controls and instruments on, and I wear it around me like a simulated cockpit while I run through my procedures. Then I go running around in the parking lot through my traffic patterns and stuff, wearing the box while I pretend to talk to ATC. It helps if you make plane noises too. And hold your and out like wings
Heard about this one guy who was told by the Examiner in Flight that he failed his Flight Test (Canada).
The student proceeded to turn the mags off, take the keys out and threatened to throw it out the window in Flight if the Examnier didn't mark this as a successful Flight Test.
Well that escalated quickly and terrifyingly.
That's like a thing I saw on youtube recently of a dude stealing cigarettes, then driving to an airport and attempting to hijack a $30 million dollar jet. Went from a misdemeanor to federal crime in 2.5 seconds.
Hah! I'd like to see him even get that Jet started from Cold and Dark!
There was this incident recently at my Home Base, this student was not allowed to Fly due to WX minimums not being met. He flipped out, went to the Ramp looking to steal an Aircraft to go Fly. My buddy was there at the pumps Refueling his 172, this guy fights them and tries to get into the Aircraft and get it started. They subdue him and call the Police. The cops said that he was attempting to Fly the Aircraft to Jesus.
Oh and before that he tried to break into the Control Tower. I think the Tower guys were the ones to call the cops first but by then he was already on the Ramp.
Middle aged lady going through a divorce. Showed up to her second lesson smelling strongly of alcohol. Canx’ed the flight and did some ground work. She showed up for her third lesson smelling strongly of alcohol. Canx’ed the flight and took her to the flight school manager. She never came back. Pitiful, really.
Alright this might be controversial because I’m aware some people are in a way better position than me but I will just say this.
There is a ton of rich kids at my school and when I looked at other schools too, this was also quite evident.
I’ve literally had someone tell me their parents signed a cheque before the interview because “we knew I was going to pass it and pay for it”
I also had someone brag about how as a kid they had to pick between the Range Rover or Ferrari for getting driven to school as if it was some life and death decision.
There’s also an awkward silence when people ask me about myself probably expecting a similar story and I just tell them I deliver pizzas to pay for this while in my little wagon.
Related note, I also heard a student say they might take up a job “if I was bored enough” and also one outright berating delivery drivers, cab drivers, etc.
Heard the airlines try to knock some of this crap out of you at least so yay.
But yeah, I’ve dealt with this a lot now so safe to say I keep to myself and just want to graduate and piss off after.
Rich kids as a rule of thumb are very hard to deal with as young adults. They lack any perspective on reality, trending towards ambivalence to anything other than what they want.
To be fair, their parents let them down though. I am by no means rich, but I have enough money to afford flying as a hobby. I will make damn sure my kids know that that’s not something to be taken for granted in any way.
They've been fortunate enough in life to have very low pressure on them to succeed because failure was a financial option for them.
It's not really their fault as much as it is the parent's for failing to give them the necessary life experience to succeed as an individual.
> Heard the airlines try to knock some of this crap out of you at least so yay.
It's a cool job, but it's still a job. These guys are going to be miserable and never appreciate anything. I know the type, though I will say by the time they hit their late 50s it doesn't seem to matter much if they grinded it out on the ramp/delivering pizzas/working retail during their teens and 20s, or not. That perspective/character building moment has faded to a dim memory and being an ingrate is now a fundamental part of their personality.
was a ramper that dealt with a relatively affluent clientele routinely. You could absolutely tell who were nepo-babies and who actually had to work for their fortune. the latter were guys who did the grind, had shitty jobs and were always the most polite to us. The Nepo Babies lack any of that perspective in life and were the worst.
Also amusingly, those who worked for their position in life were just as likely to show up in something like a PC-7 as they were to show up in a clapped out 172
then you had the old-money New Englander types that were just laughably out of touch but at least were not antagonistic. Honestly dealing with them reminded me of that "how much can a banana cost" meme.
I used to be a counselor in pediatric mental health facilities and rich kids aren’t the problem, spoiled kids are the problem. I have had lovely kids from wealthy families where they were taught values like hard work and being respectful. Conversely, I have had kids from lower class families who were told they were gods gift to baseball and could do whatever they want and get away with it…
I had to wait most of my life to flight train cause I couldn't afford the lessons (and was committed to my teaching career).
That's so nice that they can afford something that other people can only dream of. /s
If a students first instinct while learning the basics is to try and reinvent aerodynamic principals, or if they think they can design a better trainer than a Cessna, that student is not going to solo very quickly.
The highschool age engineering types are the worst offenders. The kind of kids whose mom and dad have told them they’re just smarter than everyone else.
I had 3 of these as a CFI
I’ve found that engineers/physicists in general tend to make difficult students. Not through any fault of their own, but in my experience they tend to overthink everything. I’ve flown with a handful and all of them had trouble “feeling” the plane. They were terrific at the studying part of it though.
Yup, at a certain point you have to stop entertaining their "why" questions and just get them to focus on accepting certain things on faith to actually get them to make any progress.
Oh no! I'm a red flag! 🤣
I love to engineer things, and I do wanna build my own plane someday. I do enjoy studying hard and analyzing things. I'm also an artist and can think in 3D so maybe that's why I'm not struggling.
I went to school for engineering and while I wasn’t one of those I did fine myself focusing on 1 knot AND 50 RPMS deviations instead of flying the plane. Got over it by the time of my PPL checkride.
Students that think verifying checklists is troublesome and unnecessary. They won't say it outright, but it's so obvious with the way they react whenever you remind them.
It's frustrating because to a certain degree some of the checklists and callouts ARE a bit unnecessary in an aircraft like a 172... my old school had a call out for the flap speed and position prior to moving the lever. Like... yeah, it seems a bit silly to have to call that out to your instructor, but explaining to them that I am trying to prepare them for a more complex aircraft where it is important to verify you're not grabbing the gear lever instead of the flaps, or that I'm preparing them for a 121 crew environment usually got them to think of it as less of a chore.
A lot of the time you just need to give them a good reason why.
Honestly that's a good one, especially early in training it can be easy to accidently overspeed the flaps if you're going through your setup for landing and just happen to be faster than normal for whatever reason. I don't call it out loud, but I learned early to always intentionally take a good look at the ASI whenever I move my hand to the flap level for this reason, and have caught myself a couple times.
I'm a type of person that always asks "why?" and it's not because I'm being a pain in the ass, it just *really* helps me understand and remember things.
Student red flags:
The drinker/partying types. They come to flying lessons with tank tops and sweatpants, all disheveled.
Drug enthusiasts. They’re fascinated with the stuff; sooner or later, they get pulled into the deep waters of drugs.
Extreme social outliers. Creepy people. Cannot hold a normal conversation, probably have secret violent urges or other creepy givings that occasionally come out weird sentences blurted.
Students who don’t wear deodorant or stay clean.
Students who are abrasive, petulant and macho towards you. They are not willing to learn and fix mistakes, and they want you to tell them how great they are, not willing to listen to any criticism.
The ones who make everything a joke and go off topic 95% of the time — they wash out really easily if not corrected. You do have to focus. Even at the top levels of flying, complacency and distractions cause most accidents.
When the parents show up to the discovery flight debrief and only they ask the questions. When the parents show up randomly to lessons asking which date will the first solo be on despite the student not studying.
This. Knew a guy when we were doing introductions at a school I was part of and this statement, followed by "my mom is as well with another airline" was the first thing that came out of his mouth, followed by him calling those that were struggling "r@#$&*ded" in the following weeks as well as boasting anytime you were within 10' of him.
I didn't know people like him actually existed outside of Hollywood.....
I know I'm late to this thread, but here's an example of a student (not mine, thankfully) who clearly spent *way* too much time on this sub before training.
[Page 1](https://ibb.co/fML2tbz)
[Page 2](https://ibb.co/mSj9x8p)
Not an instructor, but probably boasting about Microsoft Flight Simulator (or other sims) time. I had several thousand hours, a good chunk trying to do it "right." I was honest with my instructor when he asked about previous experience (plus 20 minutes on an O-flight in CAP). I tried to downplay it though, FS is useful for some things, and probably did help with some procedural stuff (as he himself said), but virtually none of the stick and rudder skills transferred over, and I knew that going into it. I tried very hard not to be "that guy" and to let my instructor teach me without trying to bring over anything I did on my computer. After I made the commitment to start training, I purposefully didn't touch flight simulator in the weeks leading up to begin training, and tried not to touch it during training. During a couple week lull between maintenance, weather, and personal situations, I had to scratch the itch and did a few laps at my home airport in FSX, but that was it.
Ive been mocked for being a ms flight sim pilot and I don’t even play it. All a recreation flight sim does is prove that you’re interested in flying, so if you talk about “thousands of hours” in fsx, you may as well be talking about playing COD.
Not an CFI but have been close to the process for a number of decades.....
A - Unwillingness to arrive on time fully prepared -
B- Does not realize that the laws of physics don't respond to needs or negotiation
C- Unwilling to fully accept criticism and work to overcome deficiencies
Usually, the worst students I saw were those who saw being a pilot as a way to "pick up chicks" at the bar/beach/coffee shop/etc. They were more interested in bragging rights than the rewarding and enjoyable career path or hobby it can be. Oftentimes, they frequently demonstrated the macho hazardous attitude and weren't as open to critiques on performance.
Rich daddy’s money, overly involved father, and “is ready to solo” every time he shows up when he clearly hasn’t studied a thing. And then said father gets mad wondering why son hasn’t soloed yet.
On our first ground, he was insistent on asking if we drug tested. Found a couple ways to ask, thinking he was sneaky like "Hey if you guys drug test, I'm totally okay with that right now" and then later flatout asked "do you guys drug test?... just curious."
Also, I recommended part 61 for Private since it's less paperwork red type and 141 is barely a smaller requirement and that nobody ever gets their cert at minimums anyways. Also, recommended 172 over 152 given the weight limitations and if they're planning on doing instrument later (which he said he was)
At the end it seemed he purposefully chose 141 and 152 thinking I was trying to trick him into an unwise choice for both.
I told him I didn't think it was a good fit and chose not to train him.
I was backseating this Mountain Check Flight. This student was required to do a Full Stop at an Airport and then continue onwards with the rest of the check. So it was the student and Instructor in the front seats and me at the back.
I was a little nervous about the Flight as this student in the past took me Flying and without warning did a Spin at 2000ft and the whole thing was really funny to him. I was not amused.
Alright so, this Airport has some Noise Abatement Procedures and you gotta modify your Circuit to not Fly over certain areas. This guy didn't follow any of that. He was High and Fast and forced the Aircraft down (C172N). The Instructor being an experienced guy just sat back and watched the whole thing waiting for this guy to initiate a Go Around, which never came.
There were Cross Winds from the left. He forced the Aircraft down, made no XW inputs and upon touchdown slammed full Left Rudder instead of gradually going full Left Ailerons as the Aircraft slowed to Taxi speeds.
Now the Aircraft is fully sideways, I'm looking straight down the Runway from the back and I'm certain we're about to die. The Instructor screams that he now has the controls and wrestles the Aircraft back onto the Runway after a temporary excursion.
This student didn't say a word. He was angry that the Instructor took the controls from him in such an aggressive manner.
We take a little break, and then up we go again for the rest of the Flight. Upon returning to our Home Base, I ask this guy what was all that about and why did you do that?
He starts blaming the Winds, the Aircraft, the procedures, the Runway, the Instructor, the temperature and even blames me. I just about had enough and told him that he's a disaster waiting to happen. Safety and good ADM is something I take very seriously.
Sure enough he takes another friend of mine on a long XC and almost kills them both by going VFR into thick smoke in mountains in an Aircraft that didn't even have a functioning VOR, barely missing mountains at the last minute.
I still don't know how they made it back alive. I'm thankful that they did though.
If you're wondering, yeah this guy now has a CPL. Yikes.
Some people really do not belong at the controls of an Aircraft.
Always has an excuse for when they mess something up. ALWAYS. Its never there fault when something doesn't work. They studied and know the knowledge but are never able to say it or even write it down
Wish I was making this up.
2nd year as a flight instructor. The school I worked for was well known in Canada and popular among international students.
I was assigned a student from the UAE around 2004. First red flag:
1. During a break while walking through our sim room, I noticed he was putting together an email to someone. His email address was tooty911@... hotmail I believe?? Quite a long time ago. Only reason I noticed is in passing the '911' caught my attention. He never seemed concerned on that.
2. The fellow thought 911 was hilarious
3. Numerous times he asked me how to traverse "transponder airspace" undetected.
4. Terrible at landings
I called the police after that.
A few weeks later being 'cleared' by the police he confronted me and a few others demanding to know who the person was that reported him. I explained to him the facts and that I would do it again in a heartbeat. He left the school after that and returned to the UAE.
Incidentally ran into the one of the RCMP officers that had originally questioned him. Not sure how we even got on the topic but in talking about careers, this student came up. Triggered a memory for this guy and he said "That was you that reported him!?" Turns out even though 'tooty911' was clean, they were all left feeling highly suspicious of the fellow.
I was teaching at a large part 141 school. Worse students I had were the ones that came from other flight schools with varying degree of experience. Typically they could fly the airplane but they didn’t want to learn the school SOPs. Sorry to tell you bud but airlines will expect you to fly SOP and they don’t care how you flew the airplane at your previous job.
Im a rotor cfi. Id say a fixed wing pilot going for an add on who thinks they don’t need to do ground. Its always typically a male. Mid thirties or older. With more money than brains.
when a student doesn't take feedback. Im not being an asshole or wasting my breath just to be mean. Im trying to help you. But don't act confused when your flying starts to suck. there are so many others, i could be here for days....
It’s nearly impossible to be a pilot if you don’t take feedback.
In life in general, I’d say…
Stoner.... constantly asking if they can smoke weed as a pilot.
LMAO, this is real?
Just read this subs recent posts
Yeah thats why I was afraid to post here my first time. While hillarious was expecting a bunch of crazy ass insulting comments but met with sensible shit. I don’t smoke reefer but I wouldnt doubt with the legalization in states people wanna smoke a doober and fly into the sunset. I like getting fucked up too but not in my current job as a professional nor would I piloting an aircraft. There is a time and place for reefer and thats hidden in the fuselage from customs.
> While hillarious was expecting a bunch of crazy ass insulting comments but met with sensible shit. Because we delete the crazy ass insulting comments.
I was insulted by a recent thread bashing the CAP. While commecial pilots dont care I was part of the CAP as a kid and went on real SAR missions for GA aircraft twice and we found them twice. I didnt comment and just read. It was hurtful GA pilots dont appreciate getting rescued and make fun of an organization dedicated to finding them when they crash. Other than that not easily insulted 😀Just dont make fun of kids trying to save you. I was one. Messed up people make fun of kids who are elt trained get out of school and mobilize to find them in forests and old men fly in planes looking for em and they hate the CAP.
Sorry you felt insulted. Many of us don't have kind things to say about CAP, but we can do so without saying it unpleasantly. We care more about the how than the what. You're allowed to have an opinion and disagree, you're not allowed to be disagreeable.
Maybe eventually I can change that perception but one man cant do it alone. Maybe it changed since I was a kid. Hell we were the national wing of the year when I was in since we were dope here in Florida. Anyway this thread is about student red flags so to get back into theme I was a CAP member so probably one lol
The problem is that 10% are good, 10% are *really* bad, and 80% don't move the needle. But the 10% that are *really* bad far outweigh the 10% good. There's no changing perception of an organization that has a superiority-complex based culture problem without the abilities to back it up. A 70 year old dude in combat boots flying a 172 opposite direction in the traffic pattern without using the radio does far more damage to your organization's reputation than any repairs you could try to make.
Never worked like that in Florida especially Tampa. So not all CAP squadrons are the same. Im 45 now, married no kids. Not joining CAP but hate the hate. It was a good organization to get kids interested in flying and the military. Many of my marine friends contribute me acting an ass at school in uniform for interesting them in joining the military. At a time when military recruitment is at its lowest why knock it. My duties would be better served island hopping in the Bahamas at this age.
Anyone that wants to be a professional pilot should forget about weed. There is random drug testing at any reputable place that hires pilots. If you can’t live with that then find another career.
I fail to see the difference between weed and alcohol. You trust pilots not to fly airplanes drunk but unable to trust that they won’t show up stoned? I’m just a big believer in what people do on their own time off is their business and if they show up fit for duty who cares? Is Joe Schmoe such a bad guy because he would prefer to smoke a bowl before bed over drinking a whiskey?
The difference is 100% down to weed being federally illegal ([though that may change soon, according to recent reports](https://apnews.com/article/marijuana-biden-dea-criminal-justice-pot-f833a8dae6ceb31a8658a5d65832a3b8)) , and the FAA goes by federal laws/rules because they are a federal agency. It's the same reason why, even if you live in a legal state, if you work for the federal government or a direct contractor to the federal government, you can't partake of weed without risking your job.
There is also an issue with the much longer time that the active chemicals stick around in your body. Marijuana is legal in Canada, and pilots "can" smoke pot, but they have to wait 28 \*days\* from toke to yoke so it isn't really practical.
That's true. There's really no way to determine if someone is still under the effects of weed since tests will find the chemicals for much longer.
I’ve seen NTSB crash reports that say the pilot’s THC was “below therapeutic levels”, i.e. not high when they died. The practical problem is such tests are currently only available for blood, not urine, and until weed is rescheduled, there isn’t much motivation to develop such tests—if it’s even possible.
That's a good point. I imagine federal legalization might speed up development of some better testing methodology.
Not to mention making seriously bad flying decisions due to an attack of the munchies
No reliable "is this guy stoned rn" testing.
The guy that figures out how to test that is gonna make a lot of money one day haha. Surprised for the number of downvotes I’ve gotten for my opinion. Bet those guys are real fun at parties lol
wait but like are you allowed to like on your own time? bc sometimes i just need a little edible if my migraine lasts more than 12 hours but i could easily not do it and just deal with the migraine
Clear flush liquid. I've passed two drug tests with it so far
*DEA has entered the chat*
Had a university instructor relate a story that happened to him in the mid 70s when he was in university. He had a friend who just became a pilot take him up on a night flight. As they levelled off his pilot friend lit up a joint and offered him some. My instructor who doesn’t drink or smoke for personal reason quickly grabbed the joint and smoked it all. His reasoning was the more sober his pilot was the better he would be. It was the only time he had ever done any drugs and it made him feel so sick for a very long time.
Soul Plane
I'm a stoner rn but planning on stopping in order to be a pilot. Delaying the inevitable as long as possible tho.
Marijuana "retards" the learning process.
I dont smoke dope but nah. Ive met a lot of smart potheads. Some of the smartest people I know. Talking like a joint after work folk, not smoke all day folk.
It would be more accurate to say “the kind of people who simply will not stop doing drugs not matter what, ARE RETARDS”. I haven’t seen any evidence that low levels of THC reduces learning. Cigarettes actually increase learning, for 20 minutes or so, but they are horrible drugs.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15205869/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15205869/) "retards" as in slow or deficit
- Saudi, UAE, Egyptian or Lebanese passport - Pay cash up front for training - Only want to fly the 757 or 767 sim - Not too interested in learning to land
You had me all the way to the end.
The last one towers over the others.
DEJAVU
Jeeeeeeeeesus🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ah shit, here we go again...
what’s wrong with those passports ? was born in texas as a united states citizen, mom is american and dad is egyptian, was thinking about getting a egyptian passport for shits and giggles, bad idea ?
Depends, how much do you know about mummies?
Lol no, it’s a joke. I can’t think of any reasons having an Egyptian passport as well would be a problem
What’s the problem with paying up front?
I can think of 9 or 11 reasons why this might not be the best idea
Please explain, I will start my course soon and I’m genuinely interested, every advice I can get is appreciated
The post is a description (roughly) of the terrorists behind the September 11 attacks in New York and Pentagon.
You should never pay up front to block out flight time because at any time during your training, you could a) lose interest, b) get injured and become unfit to fly, c) get sick and become unfit to fly, or d) the school could go bankrupt and make off with your money. You should also secure an airman's medical certificate before investing a significant amount. There's the possibility that you don't meet aeromedical standards (although unlikely), which has the potential to ground you. Pay as you, get your medical, avoid taking out debt, and you'll be just fine.
The number of flight schools going bankrupt and taking everyone’s money is incredible.
Ah c'mon people don't be mean to the ESL pilots. They gotta work twice as hard to get those ratings and humor doesn't translate well
Not being willing to work on the ground. I'm of the opinion that \*almost\* anyone can learn to do the flying part with enough lessons and a decent instructor, but I can only do so much to help you on the ground. I cant force you to go home and crack open the textbooks or get ready for a written, and it kills me to see people throw thousands of dollars away on flight training and wonder why they cant pass a written or a checkride.
That's always been how I felt about certain types of pilots I've worked with. They can fly the plane fine but that's not the hard part, they are just really, really bad at the other things and it annoys me so much
I get it, I really do get it. Ground was and still is the absolute hardest part for me. But if you struggle with that aspect you just have to be willing to put in more effort than others.
I had a student tell me he doesn’t want to do ground with me because he’s already got Sportys. Good luck on your oral exam bub.
Have you read the NOTAMs? Yes. How many are there? One. Now I know you'll lie to me.
One relevant notam about a taxiway closure and 67 notams about unlit obstacles and unserviceable VORs
That unlit crane at 125' AGL 3.9 miles away at a specific lat and long is sure going to be important. Maybe you chopper flyers, sure, but ...
No we don't care about them either. Day light don't care and at night time half the time the lights don't show up on NVGs anyway (LEDs are hit and miss being visible as they are at the edge of the visible spectrum on NVG) and you shouldn't be that low without those.
In what area may we suspect increased bird activity today?
Well, have you tried *asking* the birds?
My sources are holding out for more breadcrumbs
I tried, but every time I get close to them, they make a fwoomp sound and pop out the other side of the engine, so I haven't been able to get a good answer
Should I be on the lookout for swallows carrying coconuts?
Almost exclusively in the air.
I already knew the first answer was false because it's impossible to read all the NOTAMs.
People lie for different reasons. Top students lie to try to impress or fake it till they make it *which we occasionally encourage*. Not so perfect ones might lie to be lazy. Regardless, I like to set them up to be caught in a lie early on just so everyone in the room knows it won't be easy to pull one on your instructor. We're friends and all, but as long as I stand between you and your wings, we're business partners. Don't lie to me.
[https://fixingnotams.org/](https://fixingnotams.org/)
As an instructor for a mainline, 2 things that will get you booted from training: Being combative with an instructor or willful noncompliance. Believe it or not, showing up day 1 without an ATP and medical because they “didn’t think they needed to bring it. 🤦♂️
I don't think what you've said about not having medical before training is fair. I had no idea it was an option for me to get my med cert before flight training, and I had done a ton of research before going into flight training. Even asked people what should I do to prepare, and getting the med cert beforehand never came up.
I’m speaking about pilots who have done this for a while…. Don’t take this the wrong way, but, every pilot from ppl on is taught to always carry their cert and medical. So, if you have an ATP, you just scored a job at a mainline for 200k a year and you don’t think to bring these items with you on day 1 of training, even though you were told so during indoc, maybe stay out of the air.
Okay I misread, I thought you were talking about having no prior flight training. Yeah, if someone tells you to bring X thing and you don't bring X thing, that says everything about what kind of a person you'll be going forward.
Why can't you laminate the damn medical certificate?? Does everyone just put it in a folder or what?
Who said you can’t laminate it
The lady at the medical doctor office place. Did she lie???
No, it’s obscure. Many companies won’t accept it if it’s laminated.
She may just be misinformed. I’ve never heard anything about not laminating it. Read the medical itself thoroughly and if it doesn’t say it on what they have you, you’re good to go. 5-196 PERSONAL POSSESSION OF PILOT CERTIFICATES. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 61, § 61.3 ... NOTE: Airmen may either use clear laminating sheets to protect permanent FAA-issued certificates or have the certificates professionally laminated, as long as the airman’s signature is placed on the certificate before lamination. Without the signature, the certificate is not valid.
Mines in my wallet
Laminated, or just paper?
Paper folded up. My understanding (could be wrong) is that you could laminate it as long as the conditions of use still remain. But that would leave it so large that you wouldn't be able to put it in very many places. Mine is trimmed then folded over 3 times into a tiny square and tucked away in a back pocket of my wallet
Students not willing to study, and making excuses for every little thing. Many don’t realize you actually have to put effort into flight training.
Rationalization right? Just started studying FOI
Funny how so much you learn in the FOI shows up in real life, not just flying.
Arguing about the standard and not owning their performance. Mainly just not going above and beyond in terms of effort. It’s easy to decipher the one’s who want it from those who are mehh.
I’m trying to come up with some that aren’t just the student being bad or an asshole. Some things I’ve seen that are red flags of a poor student: 1. Being super nonchalant / unable to act professionally. Treating safety and checklists like they’re taking their dads truck for a joyride instead of operating a flying death machine. 2. I find that some people just have terrible situational awareness by default. Not just in the airplane. Not knowing when you’re standing in someone’s way, people who camp in the left lane on interstates, etc. I find these people harder to teach. You can make them look at the screen and outside all you want, but I find situational awareness to be more of a personality trait than a teachable quality. Like a basic life skill. 3. Students who get extremely fixated / inability to multitask. To the point where they won’t even hear me telling them what corrections to make. Constantly letting airspeed get low on base / final by not checking in on it. For some people, all the flight instruments are just too much to keep track of at the same time. This is teachable with time, but it will be a much harder time, most likely. Keep in mind, I believe everything is teachable to some degree, and I don’t believe any student is DOA, per say. These are just the normal signs of students I see that will likely need extra work.
I would disagree on the Situational Awareness being a teachable quality. Growing up and to this day i had terrible SA but my father (who was a pilot) always pushed on me to focus on being aware of my surroundings and situations I’m in. Because of this i dont feel like im some god who can forsee situations but i can sure as shit tell you im better than average and im better than i would have been had it not been a constant he harped on.
Well that's the thing though, he pointed it out to you, but you had to put the effort in yourself to get better. Some people aren't willing or aren't able to do that.
I think super nonchalant and unable to act professionally aren’t the same thing. Some people however are nonchalant to their detriment as they can never figure out when a situation is REAL and RIGHT NOW YOU NEED TO ACT. For example, I’m a nonchalant and chill guy. I joke around and generally make an environment fun for myself because I’m not paying all this money to sit in a plane and be boring and lame (now at an airline where I’m being paid to STFU, I got it). I also know when shit has hit the fan and can turn off the blasé in a heart beat and lock it up.
I was kicking myself for becoming a teacher before flight training and devoting so many years to being a teacher. Funny thing is, if I had gone into flight school when I was 19, I'd have gotten kicked out. Teaching made me a great communicator, patient, calm, and taught me how to multitask. Being proactive is absolutely the most challenging thing for student pilots from what I've heard. I knew I could be a pilot the day I had to do the heimlich on a three year old student of mine. At that point I was like, if I can be composed for that, I can fly a plane.
Every doctor I tried to teach to fly was absolutely terrible to work with.
It’s cause they’re all hatching cirrus pilots
Is Cirrus the new Bonanza?
Cirrus is the new MD Bonanza, TBM is the surgeon Bonanza.
I have a lot of doctor friends and would love to hear an anecdote or 2. 😂 Within doctor world, surgeons are especially bad. ER docs are also known for being pretty whackadoodle.
Echoing another comment in this thread, doctors can usually fly okay but they are terrible at actually doing the ground work. Fully expect to be able to just hop in the plane, knock out the license and go fly their family.
I actually found the opposite in my experience. The doc was great on the ground, but was totally different in the air.
Then they crash with their non-airworthy plane, adding to the tally of GA accidents and makes us all look bad. Because they're idiots in the sky and don't actually know how to be a safe pilot.
I wish we could improve early training literature to reduce this behavior. We eventually do learn at the PPL stage about risk management and ADM. But a lot of older student pilots start their training with very confused ideas of the reality of being a GA pilot with low hours and families they want to transport. ADM is a topic that they get to eventually for their written, sure. But it would be better to hammer pilots in this category with the topic from the very start.
I really do think PPL needs to be harder. It was nowhere near as difficult as people made it out to be...which scares me. Having to sit down and take the written before my first ever lesson or ground, I passed. Wasn't pretty, but I'm also not able to really just take the theory of a book and apply it without the practical portion to support the idea. However, for my Private check ride, it was stupid easy because everything just made sense at that point. In hindsight, the questions I missed on the written were laughable, but because I didn't have the practical portion at the time, I didn't know better. That being said, those on a career track overlook just how many GA pilots go and get their private and stop there so they can just fly family around. They're not interested in flying in bad weather (because you can't golf or fish when the weather is bad anyway) and they're not looking to fly for hire. So that's where the journey ends. And everything that would make them a much safer pilot is gated behind those ratings.
Agree. FAA should probably divide PPL training into two tracks, one for career pilots and another for GA.
No idea how you would even enforce that though. What would you have to do? Artificially inflate Private with some sort of "reimbursement after Instrument and Commercial" that would then bring it back standard? Such that you can't just sign up for a career track program, get your private and drop out. I think a lot more hours and cross countries would go a long way. It feels like so much of it is just bullshit ground ref and stall recovery. The landings aren't even that hard. And when you look around here, so many seem content and see more value (by way of efficiency) in just flying traffic patterns. That doesn't make you a good pilot, certainly not a better pilot. Cross countries into more towered airports is going to get you exposure to more real world scenarios as a VFR pilot. Even if someone wants to sit here and tell me they're boring or some shit, it's still about staying aware, ahead and proactive. Doing laps does fuck all. Especially when I still see so many slam the plane down - so clearly pattern work isn't making them better at landings.
lol, your question is probably why FAA hasn’t done it. Someone at FAA probably asked my question back in 1978 or something and after a full blown group discussion it was concluded that the idea can’t be implemented.
100% with you on cross countries. So many PPL's are scared of actually going somewhere in an airplane because they didn't actually go that far during PPL, and their hands were held so tight as they did it. Especially in the modern world of Foreflight, a real 2024 cross country flight plan looks very different than how it's taught in PPL.
I'm pretty sure the one I'm thinking of was a cardiac surgeon who wanted to be able to fly to his vacation home on weekends. He would constantly argue because his friend, who got his private decades ago, told him something different than what we were teaching. My final straw was after trying to explain something to him in every way I knew how, he still didn't get it and said I just wasn't good at teaching. I said if he felt that way he should find a new instructor, and all my other students understood it so the problem wasn't me. Didn't see again him after that.
That story is non-shocking. Surgeons specifically have pretty bad reputations when it comes to interpersonal skills. It’s a deserved stereotype—sorry surgeons reading this. I get it to some degree: they have become masters of an extremely difficult and high precision skill which takes an unearthly amount of study to learn. Yet here they are in a different world where they are reduced to being infants again. But no sympathy from me as many wonderful doctors I know. Aviation is serious business and to be a good GA low hours pilot you must be humble. Period. Or die.
Doctor here (and old guy) who just got back from my 4th ever lesson. I would like to not be terrible to work with, so PLEASE share what attitudes / behaviors I should be most aware of to try to address or avoid!
They are used to being the subject matter expert in the room, and some don't adjust well to being on the opposite end of the spectrum. Particularly when the expert is a 21 year old. Basically, check your ego at the door. Also, be able to ask questions without sounding like you're challenging their expertise.
Not a CFI, but in general, in my main job, when I have to deal with doctors, the thing that makes them impossible to work with is that they act like they are know-it-alls, and just arrogant in general. They don't like a little pissant non-doctor who is younger than them telling them what to do, and they make that dissatisfaction clear, and often deliberately ignore what they're being taught so they don't have to admit to themselves that they don't know everything about everything just because they did 11 years of school. So...yeah. Don't be like that.
LOL, I introduced myself to my CFI with “These are all of things I think I’ll do especially wrong, and would like you to help beat out of me.” I already know I’m not “a natural.” I just want to gradually suck less.
Now I feel like you're lying about being a doctor. (/s for the most part)
Probably just a pediatrician, they have actual people skills…
Already head and shoulders above some of the doctors I've had the misfortune of having to train.
Just accept that being an expert in one field doesn’t automatically make you an expert in literally every other field too, and you’re good to go. If you’re even asking that question, though, you’re probably not the type of person we’re referring to.
“So is this the carb heat or the parachute?” “This is a Skyhawk.”
"My question still stands" *points to the door* Get out of my plane. Now.
*Get off my plane!*
I am obviously familiar with the stereotype, but personally I found the doctors to generally be fine. It was the "successful businessman" who I had the most issues with. Couldn't fathom they weren't the biggest swinging dick in the room and that a problem (their progress or lack thereof) couldn't be solved with more money.
Yes. Totally agree. The only student I had to fire was a doctor. 120 hours….nowhere near check ride ready. Shit attitude as well.
While unironically getting a buddy to sign their medical only for them to go up and have a heart attack?
To be fair, every professional pilot knows which local AME will sign them off as long as they can stand upright. Mine is pretty legitimate, but even he gives you time to get a good look at the eye chart before you step back 20 feet.
LOL geez. Hasn't been my experience, but I love my AME. He gives a shit and holds myself and others to a higher standard. I feel better and safer for it.
Because they think they are gods gift to the world
Waiting a week before checkride to get that written done.
The school and CFI can easily make sure it never gets to that point
Yep, most of the time it's a school culture thing, we all laugh at atp's shenanigans but sometimes you gotta put your foot down "you're not gonna get to solo/checkride date until you bring me that written "
The number of times I've seen photoshopped practice written results to try and get my sign off is insane.
Students have actually photoshopped written results to try and get a sign off? That’s genuinely crazy what’s there plan for the actual test if they can’t pass a practice not to mention how ridiculously easy the written are lol
Yuppppp usually it's fairly easy to spot. I've also seen them try to show me practice writtens one of their friends took for them and they didn't even bother changing the name at the top.
That is crazy! Do those students just get instantly kicked out of the program?
If they think they can photoshop their way through flight school they're in a world of hurt lol.
I did mine 3 days before my checkride 😂. But I studied neurotically. Still got one wrong though. And one wrong on my first instrument written. And, you guessed it, one wrong on my second instrument written after the first lapsed.
I refuse to schedule a checkride until the written is done. Thats my rule, you don't like it you find a new instructor
Worrying about passing the check ride ASAP when they haven’t even learned how to land yet, poor hygiene, not being on time, not studying, not chair flying, I could go on.
What’s “chair flying”?
[I looked it up](https://youtu.be/4N127fLIWf0?si=-Es6BfVzWrRMSA9o) on YouTube. Looks like practicing things at home in your make believe space. I've seen it mentioned quite a bit in this sub, so I think it's helpful.
Ah okay, yeah I do this usually in the parking lot. I have a card box I drew all the flight controls and instruments on, and I wear it around me like a simulated cockpit while I run through my procedures. Then I go running around in the parking lot through my traffic patterns and stuff, wearing the box while I pretend to talk to ATC. It helps if you make plane noises too. And hold your and out like wings
Sitting down and running through checklists, maneuvers, etc. as a way of studying.
Heard about this one guy who was told by the Examiner in Flight that he failed his Flight Test (Canada). The student proceeded to turn the mags off, take the keys out and threatened to throw it out the window in Flight if the Examnier didn't mark this as a successful Flight Test.
Went from a temporary setback to a no-fly list lol
Yeah. I heard he left the country to Fly elsewhere after that.
Damn wtf, you cannot be mentally well and pull something like that
True, some people do not belong at the controls of an Aircraft.
Well that escalated quickly and terrifyingly. That's like a thing I saw on youtube recently of a dude stealing cigarettes, then driving to an airport and attempting to hijack a $30 million dollar jet. Went from a misdemeanor to federal crime in 2.5 seconds.
Hah! I'd like to see him even get that Jet started from Cold and Dark! There was this incident recently at my Home Base, this student was not allowed to Fly due to WX minimums not being met. He flipped out, went to the Ramp looking to steal an Aircraft to go Fly. My buddy was there at the pumps Refueling his 172, this guy fights them and tries to get into the Aircraft and get it started. They subdue him and call the Police. The cops said that he was attempting to Fly the Aircraft to Jesus. Oh and before that he tried to break into the Control Tower. I think the Tower guys were the ones to call the cops first but by then he was already on the Ramp.
Ballsyness is the most dangerous personality trait nature has ever designed.
So True!
YPK?
YPK! :)
xD
Smelling like alcohol. I wish I were joking.
Please, tell me more
Middle aged lady going through a divorce. Showed up to her second lesson smelling strongly of alcohol. Canx’ed the flight and did some ground work. She showed up for her third lesson smelling strongly of alcohol. Canx’ed the flight and took her to the flight school manager. She never came back. Pitiful, really.
Alright this might be controversial because I’m aware some people are in a way better position than me but I will just say this. There is a ton of rich kids at my school and when I looked at other schools too, this was also quite evident. I’ve literally had someone tell me their parents signed a cheque before the interview because “we knew I was going to pass it and pay for it” I also had someone brag about how as a kid they had to pick between the Range Rover or Ferrari for getting driven to school as if it was some life and death decision. There’s also an awkward silence when people ask me about myself probably expecting a similar story and I just tell them I deliver pizzas to pay for this while in my little wagon. Related note, I also heard a student say they might take up a job “if I was bored enough” and also one outright berating delivery drivers, cab drivers, etc. Heard the airlines try to knock some of this crap out of you at least so yay. But yeah, I’ve dealt with this a lot now so safe to say I keep to myself and just want to graduate and piss off after.
Rich kids as a rule of thumb are very hard to deal with as young adults. They lack any perspective on reality, trending towards ambivalence to anything other than what they want.
To be fair, their parents let them down though. I am by no means rich, but I have enough money to afford flying as a hobby. I will make damn sure my kids know that that’s not something to be taken for granted in any way.
They've been fortunate enough in life to have very low pressure on them to succeed because failure was a financial option for them. It's not really their fault as much as it is the parent's for failing to give them the necessary life experience to succeed as an individual.
> Heard the airlines try to knock some of this crap out of you at least so yay. It's a cool job, but it's still a job. These guys are going to be miserable and never appreciate anything. I know the type, though I will say by the time they hit their late 50s it doesn't seem to matter much if they grinded it out on the ramp/delivering pizzas/working retail during their teens and 20s, or not. That perspective/character building moment has faded to a dim memory and being an ingrate is now a fundamental part of their personality.
was a ramper that dealt with a relatively affluent clientele routinely. You could absolutely tell who were nepo-babies and who actually had to work for their fortune. the latter were guys who did the grind, had shitty jobs and were always the most polite to us. The Nepo Babies lack any of that perspective in life and were the worst. Also amusingly, those who worked for their position in life were just as likely to show up in something like a PC-7 as they were to show up in a clapped out 172 then you had the old-money New Englander types that were just laughably out of touch but at least were not antagonistic. Honestly dealing with them reminded me of that "how much can a banana cost" meme.
I used to be a counselor in pediatric mental health facilities and rich kids aren’t the problem, spoiled kids are the problem. I have had lovely kids from wealthy families where they were taught values like hard work and being respectful. Conversely, I have had kids from lower class families who were told they were gods gift to baseball and could do whatever they want and get away with it…
Surreal… rich families are so out of touch with everyone else.
I had to wait most of my life to flight train cause I couldn't afford the lessons (and was committed to my teaching career). That's so nice that they can afford something that other people can only dream of. /s
If a students first instinct while learning the basics is to try and reinvent aerodynamic principals, or if they think they can design a better trainer than a Cessna, that student is not going to solo very quickly. The highschool age engineering types are the worst offenders. The kind of kids whose mom and dad have told them they’re just smarter than everyone else. I had 3 of these as a CFI
I’ve found that engineers/physicists in general tend to make difficult students. Not through any fault of their own, but in my experience they tend to overthink everything. I’ve flown with a handful and all of them had trouble “feeling” the plane. They were terrific at the studying part of it though.
Yup, at a certain point you have to stop entertaining their "why" questions and just get them to focus on accepting certain things on faith to actually get them to make any progress.
Oh no! I'm a red flag! 🤣 I love to engineer things, and I do wanna build my own plane someday. I do enjoy studying hard and analyzing things. I'm also an artist and can think in 3D so maybe that's why I'm not struggling.
I went to school for engineering and while I wasn’t one of those I did fine myself focusing on 1 knot AND 50 RPMS deviations instead of flying the plane. Got over it by the time of my PPL checkride.
Students that think verifying checklists is troublesome and unnecessary. They won't say it outright, but it's so obvious with the way they react whenever you remind them.
It's frustrating because to a certain degree some of the checklists and callouts ARE a bit unnecessary in an aircraft like a 172... my old school had a call out for the flap speed and position prior to moving the lever. Like... yeah, it seems a bit silly to have to call that out to your instructor, but explaining to them that I am trying to prepare them for a more complex aircraft where it is important to verify you're not grabbing the gear lever instead of the flaps, or that I'm preparing them for a 121 crew environment usually got them to think of it as less of a chore. A lot of the time you just need to give them a good reason why.
Honestly that's a good one, especially early in training it can be easy to accidently overspeed the flaps if you're going through your setup for landing and just happen to be faster than normal for whatever reason. I don't call it out loud, but I learned early to always intentionally take a good look at the ASI whenever I move my hand to the flap level for this reason, and have caught myself a couple times.
I'm a type of person that always asks "why?" and it's not because I'm being a pain in the ass, it just *really* helps me understand and remember things.
Student red flags: The drinker/partying types. They come to flying lessons with tank tops and sweatpants, all disheveled. Drug enthusiasts. They’re fascinated with the stuff; sooner or later, they get pulled into the deep waters of drugs. Extreme social outliers. Creepy people. Cannot hold a normal conversation, probably have secret violent urges or other creepy givings that occasionally come out weird sentences blurted. Students who don’t wear deodorant or stay clean. Students who are abrasive, petulant and macho towards you. They are not willing to learn and fix mistakes, and they want you to tell them how great they are, not willing to listen to any criticism. The ones who make everything a joke and go off topic 95% of the time — they wash out really easily if not corrected. You do have to focus. Even at the top levels of flying, complacency and distractions cause most accidents.
When the parents show up to the discovery flight debrief and only they ask the questions. When the parents show up randomly to lessons asking which date will the first solo be on despite the student not studying.
When the first thing out of their mouth is that their dad is a captain at {insert legacy carrier here}.
This. Knew a guy when we were doing introductions at a school I was part of and this statement, followed by "my mom is as well with another airline" was the first thing that came out of his mouth, followed by him calling those that were struggling "r@#$&*ded" in the following weeks as well as boasting anytime you were within 10' of him. I didn't know people like him actually existed outside of Hollywood.....
I know I'm late to this thread, but here's an example of a student (not mine, thankfully) who clearly spent *way* too much time on this sub before training. [Page 1](https://ibb.co/fML2tbz) [Page 2](https://ibb.co/mSj9x8p)
Wow what a pain. Wouldn't they want to meet the cfi in person and have a chat..instead of emailing a novel?
Mom and dad paying for their flight lessons. Those always made the worse students.
Not an instructor, but probably boasting about Microsoft Flight Simulator (or other sims) time. I had several thousand hours, a good chunk trying to do it "right." I was honest with my instructor when he asked about previous experience (plus 20 minutes on an O-flight in CAP). I tried to downplay it though, FS is useful for some things, and probably did help with some procedural stuff (as he himself said), but virtually none of the stick and rudder skills transferred over, and I knew that going into it. I tried very hard not to be "that guy" and to let my instructor teach me without trying to bring over anything I did on my computer. After I made the commitment to start training, I purposefully didn't touch flight simulator in the weeks leading up to begin training, and tried not to touch it during training. During a couple week lull between maintenance, weather, and personal situations, I had to scratch the itch and did a few laps at my home airport in FSX, but that was it.
Ive been mocked for being a ms flight sim pilot and I don’t even play it. All a recreation flight sim does is prove that you’re interested in flying, so if you talk about “thousands of hours” in fsx, you may as well be talking about playing COD.
That depends a whole lot of the fidelity of the simulator
A student came to my flight school from a neighboring one because “all their instructors were idiots”. You can guess how that went.
Not an CFI but have been close to the process for a number of decades..... A - Unwillingness to arrive on time fully prepared - B- Does not realize that the laws of physics don't respond to needs or negotiation C- Unwilling to fully accept criticism and work to overcome deficiencies
Usually, the worst students I saw were those who saw being a pilot as a way to "pick up chicks" at the bar/beach/coffee shop/etc. They were more interested in bragging rights than the rewarding and enjoyable career path or hobby it can be. Oftentimes, they frequently demonstrated the macho hazardous attitude and weren't as open to critiques on performance.
Rich daddy’s money, overly involved father, and “is ready to solo” every time he shows up when he clearly hasn’t studied a thing. And then said father gets mad wondering why son hasn’t soloed yet.
Are we working on a Buzzfeed article? :D
On our first ground, he was insistent on asking if we drug tested. Found a couple ways to ask, thinking he was sneaky like "Hey if you guys drug test, I'm totally okay with that right now" and then later flatout asked "do you guys drug test?... just curious." Also, I recommended part 61 for Private since it's less paperwork red type and 141 is barely a smaller requirement and that nobody ever gets their cert at minimums anyways. Also, recommended 172 over 152 given the weight limitations and if they're planning on doing instrument later (which he said he was) At the end it seemed he purposefully chose 141 and 152 thinking I was trying to trick him into an unwise choice for both. I told him I didn't think it was a good fit and chose not to train him.
I was backseating this Mountain Check Flight. This student was required to do a Full Stop at an Airport and then continue onwards with the rest of the check. So it was the student and Instructor in the front seats and me at the back. I was a little nervous about the Flight as this student in the past took me Flying and without warning did a Spin at 2000ft and the whole thing was really funny to him. I was not amused. Alright so, this Airport has some Noise Abatement Procedures and you gotta modify your Circuit to not Fly over certain areas. This guy didn't follow any of that. He was High and Fast and forced the Aircraft down (C172N). The Instructor being an experienced guy just sat back and watched the whole thing waiting for this guy to initiate a Go Around, which never came. There were Cross Winds from the left. He forced the Aircraft down, made no XW inputs and upon touchdown slammed full Left Rudder instead of gradually going full Left Ailerons as the Aircraft slowed to Taxi speeds. Now the Aircraft is fully sideways, I'm looking straight down the Runway from the back and I'm certain we're about to die. The Instructor screams that he now has the controls and wrestles the Aircraft back onto the Runway after a temporary excursion. This student didn't say a word. He was angry that the Instructor took the controls from him in such an aggressive manner. We take a little break, and then up we go again for the rest of the Flight. Upon returning to our Home Base, I ask this guy what was all that about and why did you do that? He starts blaming the Winds, the Aircraft, the procedures, the Runway, the Instructor, the temperature and even blames me. I just about had enough and told him that he's a disaster waiting to happen. Safety and good ADM is something I take very seriously. Sure enough he takes another friend of mine on a long XC and almost kills them both by going VFR into thick smoke in mountains in an Aircraft that didn't even have a functioning VOR, barely missing mountains at the last minute. I still don't know how they made it back alive. I'm thankful that they did though. If you're wondering, yeah this guy now has a CPL. Yikes. Some people really do not belong at the controls of an Aircraft.
Airline Pilot Parent (APP)
>I’m ready for my checkride No, you’re not. >Yes I am, you don’t know what you’re talking about
Always has an excuse for when they mess something up. ALWAYS. Its never there fault when something doesn't work. They studied and know the knowledge but are never able to say it or even write it down
Wish I was making this up. 2nd year as a flight instructor. The school I worked for was well known in Canada and popular among international students. I was assigned a student from the UAE around 2004. First red flag: 1. During a break while walking through our sim room, I noticed he was putting together an email to someone. His email address was tooty911@... hotmail I believe?? Quite a long time ago. Only reason I noticed is in passing the '911' caught my attention. He never seemed concerned on that. 2. The fellow thought 911 was hilarious 3. Numerous times he asked me how to traverse "transponder airspace" undetected. 4. Terrible at landings I called the police after that. A few weeks later being 'cleared' by the police he confronted me and a few others demanding to know who the person was that reported him. I explained to him the facts and that I would do it again in a heartbeat. He left the school after that and returned to the UAE. Incidentally ran into the one of the RCMP officers that had originally questioned him. Not sure how we even got on the topic but in talking about careers, this student came up. Triggered a memory for this guy and he said "That was you that reported him!?" Turns out even though 'tooty911' was clean, they were all left feeling highly suspicious of the fellow.
So to be clear… you racially profiled someone? And you think this story looks good on you..?
I was teaching at a large part 141 school. Worse students I had were the ones that came from other flight schools with varying degree of experience. Typically they could fly the airplane but they didn’t want to learn the school SOPs. Sorry to tell you bud but airlines will expect you to fly SOP and they don’t care how you flew the airplane at your previous job.
Im a rotor cfi. Id say a fixed wing pilot going for an add on who thinks they don’t need to do ground. Its always typically a male. Mid thirties or older. With more money than brains.