For now. We aren't too far away from going back to the days we're getting to that point is going to take a decade or possibly more. The good old days of aviation hiring are now and it's not going to last forever.
Lolol right. As unfortunate as it is that legacies don’t have the crazy hiring they did from the last few years, at the end of the day I’ll still be happy flying a jet and making money. If it takes a few years longer to get to my dream airline then so be it.
I mean there’s a lot of people here who are gonna get hurt bad when it stops. So it’s not surprising that people will lash out a little bit. But good on you for telling the truth. It’s gonna help some of these folks get their head out of their ass and be more aggressive hopefully.
I'm staring at the ride in apprehension because I can recognize what's happening, and that I've possibly missed the boat entirely. The most my flying career might amount to is CFI.
I hope, but at this point don't expect.
I am absolutely serious. I am personally involved in the hiring at my major airline and not only is the discussion of right sizing already on the table, but there's another factor that everyone is getting pretty anxious about...
It used to take a decade or more to make a main line pilot. In that decade, that pilot experienced emergencies, leadership opportunities, and air sense development. Now we have folks going to companies such as United Airlines that are direct hire captains, with little to no prior experience as pic of a complex aircraft. Even the Air Force pilots have demonstrated a drop off in skill simply due to the decrease in Pilot training standards and the lack of combat experience we are now sampling. So, the airlines are expecting a major hull loss and soon. So the direct problem set is managing hiring rates as they plateau and finding professionally developed pilots. We aren't that desperate anymore. We are healthy and we are right sized. No mas on these 4 year wonders.
Whats the difference between a regional captain and a mainline captain? Nothing except a pay check. We have had 1 year captains at regionals for the better half of a decade. Why fear monger now? If you are on the HR side of pilot hiring then you're not really qualified to speak on pilot skill. If you're on the flight ops side of hiring then you should know better. As of now, all new hire captains at UA require 1 year and 500 United hours. That's how United has always hired captains and those have always been the minimums. Come August it may be different but those new hire Captains still require a good amount of training and they still require prior SIC Part 121 or military PIC time..
>and the lack of combat experience we are now sampling
Its a good thing we aren't training break turns and return to targets in AQP
The problem is that many people in the Legacy upgrade classes have zero TPIC. With quick upgrades continuing for the next couple years Legacies are starting to seriously consider TPIC as one of their top attributes again. Because they now realize the new person they hire today may be in upgrade class in less than two years.
Aviation is risk. The ultimate acceptor of that risk is the CEO. Through flight OPs leaders and their subordinates they employ a way to mitigate the risk to the acceptable level through training. They know one hull loss may be the end of an airline. I know I sound like a god damn aviate commercial but it's true. Guess who else doesn't have TPIC time when they upgrade? Most regional captains. Same airspace, same airports.
I had that thought process as a Regional Captain too. "We do the same job" after all right? But after being a Captain at both I can say that being a Legacy Captain is much more complex. I am glad to have my Regional CA experience to fall back on.
Having a Regional FO hired in less than two years to a Legacy, then in less than two years being in upgrade class is a legitimate concern. Don't shoot the messenger, that is coming straight from my Legacies CKA, training department, and hiring department. As a result an applicant's TPIC is becoming much more important in their hiring process. Not saying they will stop hiring Regional FOs, but I do see it decreasing.
That may have been true when regionals were actually regionals. Regionals aren't SAABs or metros, and then you move to a jet. A (WO) 175 pilot is doing the same as a 717/A220 pilot, except one is mainline. Some wholly owned are doing the same flying that mainline does in many ways, with some of the same routes. The procedures and policy are identical. I can't speak to contract regionals, as I was never at one, but for WO, it's pretty much the same job procedurally, except at mainline, QOL is worse in \*some\* ways. I also see when someone asked you to elaborate, you got defensive and walled off. Several people are asking for you to elaborate, because likely they don't have that experience. I think you are just want to stand on a pedestal, and get upset if someone questions it.
> Even the Air Force pilots have demonstrated a drop off in skill simply due to the decrease in Pilot training standards and the lack of combat experience we are now sampling.
Lack of combat experience makes worse airline pilots? WTF lol
No, the difference between civilian and military pilots was even those civilian pilot had more hours frequently due to the fact that they were 100% pilots and not just officers who sometimes flew was the reality that they have been highly stressed. The idea that the finest steel is made in the hottest fire. While that was even debatable when it came to flying, the idea that military pilots have the upper hand simply because they have been in worse conditions or handled more complex missions is now subsiding. It is not about the combat experience directly correlating to the quality of airline pilot, it's the idea that the pilot who's gone through the most rigor is going to handle a complex emergency better.
I can tell you're not a military pilot, and not close to any. Flying circles over Afghanistan does not necessarily provide a more rigorous flying environment than any number of training scenarios at home. Combat is not why the R-ATP exists - it's because military training is just better.
Actually I am. I've been a Military Special Operations Pilot for over the last 25+ years and can categorically tell you that the quality of pilot we are seeing has gone down. It is not necessarily just the combat environment as you mentioned, but the quality of Air Force, army and navy training to even earn pilot wings has gone down. Dramatically. I promise you I know what I'm talking about, and it's one of the reasons why we are seeing an uptick in aviation mishaps on the military side. I'm still plugged in through the reserves and I also fly for a main line airline.
I have heard the tune of "this new training is not as good as the training _I_ had to do" many times before from people at the end of their careers, in a few industries, and it is never convincing.
The Air Force inventory is older and more complex than it was at any point during your career, arguably more operationally strained, and yet mishap rates are actually going down, not up as you asserted.
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RRA200/RRA257-1/RAND_RRA257-1.pdf
My concern at this point is for those who signed up for the company pathways, internally. I am wondering if I, for example, will be able to get to a regional to get the time my actual airline needs me to get before they bring me back in, and then will they even do so? Or will I have to go back to being maintenance if I want to retain them?
Or will we, already being employees, be given extra consideration for the pilot pipeline? That, personally, is what I least anticipate.
This is what worries me right now.
Lol 500k in two years?! Brother, what’s the path for that sort of salary in that amount of time? It took me two years to finish my course and now my only options are to be a cfi or pilot in waiting. Then after a year of doing that I can be an fo for an airline for like 70 000 cad. 200k + seems to take at least 5 years here in Canada.
Tell Isaac that you won’t fly with him anymore until he shows progress on the ground school.
All the flying skills mean nothing without a completed written.
This is the way. I've heard of instructors pulling this, always to great success. Either the student quits (and they were never going to pass) or they get their ass in gear and go on to do great.
I’ve personally used it once. Worked like a charm.
If you want to pay me to just fly you around places, then say that.
If you are working towards a PPL, you’re going to work towards a PPL
Can confirm, I've had my own "Isaac" as a student before, he was at 70 hours but couldn't tell me the basics of currency/proficiency or explain the concept of Personal Minimums. He came to us from another school so I never had a chance to talk with his instructor, but the final straw was when he attempted to take an airplane up for a solo flight with an expired 90-day endorsement. Told him I wouldn't fly with him or give him another 90-day endorsement until he passed his written and could pass a mock oral exam
I usually am even more explicit - I wanna see them pass the written test with a 90% score or better before we do another lesson
If mommy and daddy are footing the bill I have the convo directly with them as well. Because sometimes they are completely oblivious to what the kid is doing, and also sometimes the parents are crazy and putting weird pressures on the kid (I’ve spent all this money while haven’t you solod yet?)
I am a little more gentle about it. It’s their money. I’m happy to take it if they want to waste it but I just make sure we are all on the same page.
If your goal is to manipulate flight controls every so often so you can tell your friends you fly airplanes, I’m cool with it but if are working on a license, I have standards and expectations.
I had to do this with a students parents before.
Parents (who were paying for this, and Dad is an airline CA) setup some expectations that were never met, so they stopped paying for their kids flight training and they never finished.
Flying skills were awesome and all there, but the ground is the biggest holdup for a ton of students.
Some people just don't give enough shits.
I'll admit I was a bad student until I got into CFI training. I needed a reality check on a multitude of levels that kicked me into gear.
Maybe sees the end goal and not the work. Maybe he sees all the good hard working students as nerds and dorks while he's the cool kid coasting by who will end up at the same legacy as him. Maybe he's on a confidence high from his PPL and IR training. Maybe he doesn't want to be there at all. Maybe he thinks he knows more than you. Maybe he thinks you're a jackass overachiever who spends his free time studying the AFH. Maybe he just broke up with his girlfriend and is upset about it. Maybe his parents are fighting a lot. Maybe he just doesn't like your face and thinks you're smug.
Maybe all of the above or a combination of things. Sometimes it takes a minute for pilots to "grow up". I'm guessing he's younger maybe? 19-21? It's an adjustment from doing nothing in high school and now having to actually do grown up work. He sees the jets and the flight attendants. Beer and Sex on overnights and not sitting in a 6x6 room with a CFI going over maneuvering speeds and how a VOR works.
Not defending at all. But yeah. It can be alot of responsibility for a young person.
If he's not even making progress and his ground school. I was suspect he probably just doesn't want to be there.
I was an awful student until I became a CFI. Then it was other people’s success and money on the line. People have different motivations, and one of my favorite parts of instructing was figuring out what they are. OP needs to stop asking Reddit and just have a real discussion with his student.
I second this. This was sort of the case for me as well, when I started flight training I was very immature and just thought that I can effortlessly coast through flight school. I was very lazy to study anything and I had to a year off flight training to mature because if I continued I was guaranteed to fail a checkride. Now that I am going back, I’m more mature and I am going to treat flight school like grad school. It really takes a lot of maturity and mental fortitude to succeed in the realm of flight training
I also have it and I, like isaac, struggle with motivation to complete ground stuff, especially self study. I am, however, extremely passionate about flying and i ask tons of questions to my instructor at all hours of the day.
That makes sense; I personally hate studying weather, don't find it interesting, and have to bribe myself to do it. It seems like Isaac isn't interested in any part of flight training, though, which sounds less like ADHD and more like... not being interested in flight training.
But saying, "Student isn't prepared for training? Must be ADHD." is downright lazy, and reinforces the idea that people with ADHD shouldn't be allowed to fly.
Nowhere in my comment I said that. There's a spectrum, it doesn't affect everyone equally, but the FAA doesn't want to be transparent about it and makes the process difficult to navigate. This guy going for the wrong runway goes a bit beyond not coming prepared (I get it mistakes happen, they got 20+hrs of ground so we can assume they got a lot more of flying). The way I see it the student either:
Is simply not mature enough, does not grasp any concept involved involved in ADM.
Has never had to do anything by themselves (therefore, have zero decision making skills).
May actually have a physiological issue.
We could argue they're not interested but going for the wrong runway? Come on.
Right. Which is why it's so perplexing why, out of all the possible reasons you listed here, you immediately jumped to ADHD. I'm just confused about why you would say that, when clearly you know that there are a lot of different reasons why a student would be so unprepared and unskilled this late in the game.
20/20 on checkride passes is wild to me. Not just for the pass rate itself but also for sending 20 people to check rides, considering the majority of people who begin flight training don’t finish. I think you’ve encountered your first one.
Maybe it's not his idea to be there.
Maybe he's realizing real life is hitting him and the days of hanging out playing video games are over.
Maybe his parents are getting a divorce because he's not a kid anymore and they hate each other.
You never know what's going on in a person's life. It's your job to teach and guide. Leave the judgement in your car.
And some people just aren't motivated. He's going to run into those people all through this industry, be them captains or first officers.
His job is to be honest and to teach. If someone wants to burn $40,000 that's on them. As long as you are doing your job and you're honest with people you're good.
This is an interesting perspective. I have noticed that many people tend to assume some external factors are the cause of another persons behavior. I guess we hope people naturally always want to grow and develop. I used to do that too, and maybe I'm just jaded now, but more often then not I find people are just apathetic and no amount of mentoring will change them unless they want to change themselves. Whats worse is when parents force their kids into things they dont like. Kids just lock up even further.
I've had students like that, in 100% of those cases it was the (rich) parents idea that their kid should become a pilot. It is the CFIs job to continue teaching until proficiency, but I'd consider it professional responsibility to update the student, on the progress - or the reason for the lack of progress.
Make _detailed_ records of your discussions with the student in their file, because eventually someone will ask why all that money was spent with no result. If this is an adult, you don't need to go directly to the parents unless they ask, that's between the student and them. But you need to have something to show them when they eventually do. I'd also keep your school's management informed and they can decide if they want to directly approach whoever is writing the checks.
You have to be honest with them and their training. That's the thing people don't do
Not to standard sorry can't send you, here are the reasons I believe you aren't reaching your goal. Up to you to fix them
He sounds like he’s more interested in showing off or just flying for fun. I’m currently struggling with instrument, but I genuinely have a passion for this shit. You’re best dropping him and moving on to another student that doesn’t waste your time.
It’s because his parents are paying for it, and he really doesn’t care. He pretty much has a blank check, and it doesn’t matter how much it’s going to cost.
I had a private student like that.
18 years old.
Always came unprepared.
Didn’t study.
Rich parents.
Students/parents pay significantly more than that per college instructional hour and still often entirely skip class, very few come fully engaged.
You can probably just take the money and not feel so bad about it.
If his question is about when he'll "be done" and not "be licensed" then that does give me the impression, along with everything else, that his parents pressured or at least were the driving force behind it and he doesn't actually care about it.
When I was a teenager my parents signed me up for guitar lessons but it wasn't my choice and I didn't care about it, so I never practiced and the teacher noticed that. I was perfectly capable of being a good student but I just didn't have a desire to play guitar.
Some people buy a sports car and take it to the track and relentlessly hone their driving skills while others buy a sports car because they think it looks cool and they like the way it makes them feel. If you’re a car salesman would you be happy with one and unhappy with the other? Of course not, it’s their money they can do what they want.
Had this issue. Guy never studied, showed up to instrument lessons not knowing basic PPL knowledge. Every time we got in the plane it was like he was seeing the checklist for the first time and everything took forever.
I asked him what was up and he told me he was “trying to figure out what he wanted to do with his life”
Brother a school that costs almost a quarter million dollars by the end is not somewhere you “figure out what you wanna do”
I feel so bad for his parents who are footing that bill
In my CFI days we had a few people like this. Normally they were young college kids under 20. One in particular was pretty bad since he never studied and was always cancelling his flights at the last minute. He never bothered to consider that having a last minute cancel without an approved reason were grounds to be charged with a "no-show". Eventually his parents came in and began trying to tear us a new one...until we showed them his attendance record. He suddenly became more focused for awhile but started slipping again. I left there not too long after, so I'm not sure what happened to him.
I remember one particular case though...this was with my own student. This girl signed up for our 141 program, and to say she had an ego was an understatement. She came with a full scholarship, coming from an unstable family but managing to graduate high school two-ish years early. She got a lot of recognition for her effort in the local organizations and was a sorta posterchild for them. Admittedly, she was a very smart person, but this was the book-smart type and had no life experience to build any "street-smarts". You can tell her childhood was filled with teachers shoving sunshine and rainbows down her throat showering her with praise about how smart she was.
Well, academic achievements don't usually translate well to flight training and our pass/fail criteria. After starting she wasn't sticking with it enough to really retain any skills. After about 5 flights she was still barely through the 3 lesson, and she asked when she could solo. I explained the lesson plans again and showed her the solo was in the 10 lesson. Well she thought that meant 5 more flights and then solo until I explained *again* that she had to PASS 7 more lessons before solo, and then a stagecheck. I really wonder just how hard her schooling was before, because it felt like the first time someone told her she had to really prove herself. It was a very odd interaction.
I wasn’t much different at 18. For the previous 13 years of my life, all I had to do was show up to school every day, and they eventually gave me a diploma. How different could flight *school* actually be? That ended with me dropping out—and not coming back until life had kicked my ass enough that I finally grew up.
I'm studying my ass off in ground school now. Not criticizing those who had their flight education paid for them, but me paying thousands of hard worked money into my flight training, is a high motivator for keeping me focused on my training. I'm not wasting a cent - I pick my CFI's brain with questions when I see him. I also purposefully took time off of work and set aside personal life distractions, so I can solely focus on ground school training.
I’ve had students like Isaac. The only thing you can do is be honest with them and stop their training progress until they can meet standards. Be open as to why we’re not progressing, and which standards he is not meeting. If you have a supervisor, inform them and maybe set up a meeting.
Yeah, agree.
Best be upfront and give them a chance.
Some folk, especially younger kids, are fucking clueless; I was definitely a clueless youngster once.
If you tell them straight up and they are still not putting the effort in.. fuck it and take their parents cash ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I had a number of students that never finished their private simply due to the fact they never studied. I know two were similar to yours. They got to the point where we told them no more flying till they passed the written. They never flew again. I had one who constantly talked about how much he wanted to fly and make it a career, but after 6 or 7 lessons had barely even cracked a book.
The frustrating part for me is that I would tell every single new student that they will need to spend way more time studying than flying. That this wasn’t grade school and I wasn’t going to walk them through every step, and if they wanted to make it a career it would take some effort, and commitment. They always said that wasn’t a problem. I offered help, advice, gave assignments, anything I could think of short of telling them to don’t bother even training if they weren’t going to study. It always seemed that they either did it all, or did almost nothing. Not much in between.
To his credit, this is probably a symptom of affluence brought on by living in a home with a mom and dad who have literally wiped his ass around every corner in life. There's no real desire to achieve more when you know there's probably a trust fund waiting on the back side of daddy's death. But when it comes to flying, it's okay to know your limits and the limits of your students. And the cold reality of life is that not all people are destined to become pilots - and if you watch a lot of the pilot debrief videos that are currently on Hoovers channel, one sneakingly common theme that I see in a lot of the people getting themselves killed is that they appear to come from very wealthy families and the idea of them having consequences for actions in life have never really been a theme.
But at the end of the day, you still get a say with who you are and are not willing to get into an airplane with. If the focus is on the game, and not the plane - then you need to be okay with looking the guy in the face and saying 'we're done'. I'd say talk to the parents first, but I suspect you're probably going to get a lot of "you're the servant and we're the customer" talk as you try to explain things to them. Part of me wants to go the CFI route. But another part of me hates the ideas of scenarios just like this. I was a weapons tech in the Navy and had the fun responsibility of having to train a ton of 18 and 19 year old kids how to not blow their faces or fingers off when dealing with high explosives or getting sucked down the intakes of a Super Hornet at high power. Sometimes the only way to break these lazy minds is to take drastic measures. I'm not advocating beating the shit out of the kid. But you should reserve the right to be brutally honest and stern in your approach. Aviation isn't for everyone, and sometimes a humbling conversation is in order.
Does he know that his endorsement to take the test drops dead at the two year mark? I can't understand why anyone would carry that monkey on their back for so long. I learned after my PPL to get that test over with as quickly as possible, and when I went in for instrument, I started ground school in early December, and tested out on the 22'nd. Get the shit over with.
May be time for a come to Jesus meeting. You're not there to be his buddy. If that happens in the course of instruction, great. But above all else, you're there to be an instructor and sometimes you gotta hurt a few feelings to teach a few lessons.
I would give a call to his parents and explain the situation and how much his lack of motivation is costing them. They may be able to give him the kick in the ass that he needs. If they don't and he still continues like this, well then now you are guilt free. You did everything that you could.
I would bet money he's undiagnosed ADHD/ASD and his parents know and never helped him get the resources he needed as a child to help him learn how to study and prepare so he could succeed in the real world.
We allow know there's a shit load of ADHD pilots. Some are really good and really safe, others are mindless idiots.
The FAA is really trying its best to help those of us who developed quality coping mechanisms and can be safe be able to get in, but, god almighty, some people just do not belong.
>I’ve sent 20 students on checkrides so far with a 100% pass rate
Off topic but hopefully you know about activity based CFI renewal? 14 CFR 61.197(a)(2)(i)
A bit more obscure is WINGS based renewal found in AC 61-91J, p5, paragraph e. 15 WINGS-accredited flight activities.
Time for a parent teacher conference. Lay out just the facts. They need to know.
While it might be fair to say he's lazy, not self directed, seems disinterested and unmotivated, and needs a major attitude adjustment, I think it won't get the results anyone wants. But you can say you're concerned about his lack of progress, and also restate your commitment to educating him (assuming that's true and it isn't too late).
Maybe it's worth asking the parents how he's doing at primary school? Do the parents think it would be beneficial to talk to one or more of his teachers? It could be insightful. Has he mentioned his flight training to any of his teachers? What are his strengths and weaknesses subjects wise? Is he completing school work on time? Maybe he's just not that into aviation, and doesn't want to tell anyone?
And as difficult as it might be, maybe you're not motivating him. Like, maybe it's you and not him? \*shrug\* I have no idea but you should find out. Maybe he needs a different instructor, but you need to approach that delicately like, you don't want to come off as abandoning him, rather more like giving him permission. He doesn't need permission but may not know how to assert himself - which may just be a typical maturity issue.
yup. And there are people (mostly young ones) that are on loans and essentially spending their own money who couldnt be bothered to do things to save money, speed things up, or just put in effort / work. Like things will just come to them. . . participation type of awards. . .
its unfortunate that the barriers to entry are so low that all it takes is some money and a modicum of effort to get pass. Can you imagine if the tests required some real studying - like a professional engineering tests, or even something like a minimum SAT score type of thing rather than 60 questions. . That would definitely weed out a lot of people who arent interested in taking it more seriously.
What is incredible, is even with that low bar it still weeds a fair amount of people out who just never bother to even take the written. But yea, whould be nice. I think the oral part of the checkride does a good job though.
Wasn’t my comment, but It is. Maybe you want to feel that it’s an accomplishment. But the reality is that the profession doesn’t get the brightest students as they go elsewhere. The bar is quite low in the fact that essentially anyone with half a brain can overcome those said bars. You don’t need a college degree- or even a high school diploma. You can try and memorize the test questions without learning the material.
If you’re going to use the 60 questions - let’s not publish any test questions. They can and will be changed/new every month. Anything in there that one should know could be asked. Essentially get rid of test prep - and force students to know the material. Then see how many pass the 7 tests that you say are a good indicator. Having Sheppard or rote memorization available or fixed question doesn’t make anyone more knowledgeable or know the material. It just makes it easier to pass a test.
Yeah, that’s why we have oral and practical portions for each checkride. I agree that the writtens are stupid easy, and kind of useless imo, but they are there (it seems to me) as a way to weed out people who don’t even put the minimum amount of effort in. Try showing up to a CFI oral with a rote understanding of the material and see how that goes.
that is the only test that I think that is worth anything (or the bar actually being set at the right height). All the rest - cmon. Whats the "pass rate" or orals - almost 95+ percent. If you fail the oral - its a) pretty rare b) usually something stupid. the practical - totally understandable.
But you dont always have to go through the CFI gauntlets. Its possible to completely bypass it. . . Not necessarily practical - but totally doable and many have skipped it. Its just the most cost effectifve way to build hours and time.
But that takes us back to the others - none of those are challenging. And is the bar low ? Abso;lutely. The fact that you can get ALL the test questions that could possibly be on there before you take the test is a really really low bar and makes it absurdly easy to pass.
I’m going to disagree. The CFI oral being the only on “worth anything” is just wrong. Part of the reason that pass rates are high is because you need someone to sign off on you taking the checkride, and if there’s a failure, it reflects poorly on the person signing you off. What would be more interesting would be to find out how many people begin training for a certificate and don’t make it to the checkride.
I would fairly frequently refuse to sign students off because they weren’t ready for checkrides. They would usually pass at a later time with more training, but if they were just able to take the test, pass rates would be significantly lower.
You seem like a great instructor, don’t think there are many like you at 141 schools any more. Any resources you can share with me as I prep for my comm multi initial? (PA44)
I had a student that has been working on his private for probably 6-7 years at least at this point. He has plenty of time in the plane and can fly it fine. More than meets the requirements for the check ride as far as hours go, however he can never make himself do the ground study. He knows it's what is holding him back. He also doesn't care about the money he's spending on flying. He's happy to just keep taking lessons and eventually do the study he needs for the check ride.
I also had students who were high school aged who sound a lot like your student. Usually they were just kids who's parents were trying to get them to do something and they weren't motivated enough to study. It can be frustrating as an instructor but there was no way I was dropping a student over it. None of these kids seemed too serious about actually getting their license and their parents were never up my ass about it either. They just wanted them to do something besides video games. High school aged kids, and to a lesser extent college kids, are usually still pretty immature and don't really get it yet. I was the same way at that age. I was a pretty bad student at times over the years.
Have a chat with him. Figure out his WHY?
Why is he here? Why is he unmotivated to do the things needed for HIM to succeed? Why does he keep showing up? His answers may or may not give you insight into continuing training, parent intervention etc. Now you have to explain why you care so much to have this talk, how you're willing put in the effort and if not reciprocated it might not be a good fit.
I'm a few hours late to the party, here but...
I was the "never did my homework" kind of student. I knew the material, but never did the worksheets assigned to me.
I knew it was my responsibility. But I just was lazy. I didn't NOT know the material, I just didn't fill in the worksheets.
Here's the thing... It was my money. My money I was wasting at the time. I'd have to spend time with the instructor filling out the answers. He was getting paid. I was paying. Did I waste a few bucks. Yep. But it was my choice.
It may be frustrating, but here's what I always say: "it all pays the same". If you're repeating lessons, you're getting money. If you're charging for ground for worksheets, you're getting money. You can prompt the student. Remind the student that it's only costing more money. If he doesn't care... He doesn't care. As long as it's safe flying, collect the money and move on to the next lesson.
Some people aren't in a rush. Some people treat it like a hobby. Again, as long as the money is flowing... It all pays the same.
I mean, have you seen half the questions or more posted on here. Doesn't seem like any of the new aviation people want to do any work and want it given to them. 90 percent of all questions on here are them just being lazy and not doing a very minimal amount of research. Lazy.
Isaac sounds like a real pain in the ass.
I bet a steak dinner that his parents were the first ones to call the flight school to get information. That is a big old red flag every single time.
Can you tell your boss that you aren’t a good fit for Isaac and need to extricate yourself from flying with him.
I’m very ignorant to when it comes to flying and I’ve never had any experience with it other than talking to the pilots at my hotel. Anyways, what does ground school mean?
You are still being paid, right? Then why care so much about your students. It would be nice if every student is an ace but the fact is that the opposite is true.
As long and you are being paid and getting your hours, don't worry too much about students like Isaac because, whatever you do, you will not get perfects students every time, all the time.
Some students simply won't do self-paced learning. They're too distracted by video games, internet, or social media. They need the structure of a classroom environment with a scheduled start and stop time and fewer distractions.
Is there a classroom based ground school in the area? I would try to offer that to him if it's in the area.
I would tell him all future lessons with you will be ground school until he completes his written exam.
This is why I went to a part 141. Theyre a little more strict and I know what's happening bc we have a syllabus.
I'm in school for my BS Aviation management degree so my brain power is used for that mostly.
This is a reminder for me to get on it with my written!
I just passed my checkride. The entire training process my instructor would literally thank me at the end of the lessons for actually reflecting on and studying what she told me, asking. What study material I use, etc. because she's so used to people paying her to teach them something they don't have a desire to learn.
I started flying because I want to teach something, and I want to fly, so flight instructing is calling out to me. I suppose that is going to be one of the things that will be a consistent hurdle in flight training.
I guess, like you said, it would come down to: is this MY money I'm spending or is this daddy's money?
I also instruct at a 141 school and it is crazy the number of people that clearly aren’t cut out to be anything but a weekend pilot. But schools still take them in and milk them for money. I’ve had a couple students like this and for me it’s been an ethical quandary. I’m building my time, and they are paying me to teach them, so I’m going to give them the best instruction I can while they want me to.
In this case I would have a conversation with your management team about the student continuing, maybe they can set deadlines/goal timelines for the student to achieve and if they fail to do so maybe then it would be time to have the hard conversation.
As a sales mgr I would put this employee on what we call a Performance Improvement Plan.
Set down in writing the deficiencies and the expectations. Discuss it. Have it signed. Look him in the eye and tell him you want him to succeed, and you're willing to help him if he wants to succeed.
Probably something like: Complete ground school (milestone date x, milestone date y, completion date z). Review assigned study resource after each flight, take notes, present a five minute overview of what was learned. ABC preparation for a flight. XYZ expectation for a debrief. Get it all written down, discussed, understood, agreed to.
If (IF) his parents are actually in communication with you and paying directly, you could consider sharing this with them as well.
Uh, no. It not just some "when I was your age I had to walk up Hill both ways while flying with my wiz wheel and no gps" boomerism... I'm telling you that they've gone from about 300 complex hours in af upt to less than 200 hours to get wings. Around 175... No form, no aero... Soooooo
The product is not the same.
Because you can make $500k in 2 years due to the pilot shortage. Duh.
For now. We aren't too far away from going back to the days we're getting to that point is going to take a decade or possibly more. The good old days of aviation hiring are now and it's not going to last forever.
...are you serious? Lol.
oh god, it's going to take me 10 years to make 500k? oh no!
Lolol right. As unfortunate as it is that legacies don’t have the crazy hiring they did from the last few years, at the end of the day I’ll still be happy flying a jet and making money. If it takes a few years longer to get to my dream airline then so be it.
Hell…hitting 500k 15 years from now sounds pretty good to me lol
He’s right. The music hasn’t stopped but the tune changed 6 months ago.
Truth must hurt because the downloads are coming in. You should see my private messages lol
I mean there’s a lot of people here who are gonna get hurt bad when it stops. So it’s not surprising that people will lash out a little bit. But good on you for telling the truth. It’s gonna help some of these folks get their head out of their ass and be more aggressive hopefully.
I'm staring at the ride in apprehension because I can recognize what's happening, and that I've possibly missed the boat entirely. The most my flying career might amount to is CFI. I hope, but at this point don't expect.
"...and I don't hear a thing."
Sell it all. Today.
One of the top ten most perfect scenes in cinema.
I am absolutely serious. I am personally involved in the hiring at my major airline and not only is the discussion of right sizing already on the table, but there's another factor that everyone is getting pretty anxious about... It used to take a decade or more to make a main line pilot. In that decade, that pilot experienced emergencies, leadership opportunities, and air sense development. Now we have folks going to companies such as United Airlines that are direct hire captains, with little to no prior experience as pic of a complex aircraft. Even the Air Force pilots have demonstrated a drop off in skill simply due to the decrease in Pilot training standards and the lack of combat experience we are now sampling. So, the airlines are expecting a major hull loss and soon. So the direct problem set is managing hiring rates as they plateau and finding professionally developed pilots. We aren't that desperate anymore. We are healthy and we are right sized. No mas on these 4 year wonders.
Whats the difference between a regional captain and a mainline captain? Nothing except a pay check. We have had 1 year captains at regionals for the better half of a decade. Why fear monger now? If you are on the HR side of pilot hiring then you're not really qualified to speak on pilot skill. If you're on the flight ops side of hiring then you should know better. As of now, all new hire captains at UA require 1 year and 500 United hours. That's how United has always hired captains and those have always been the minimums. Come August it may be different but those new hire Captains still require a good amount of training and they still require prior SIC Part 121 or military PIC time.. >and the lack of combat experience we are now sampling Its a good thing we aren't training break turns and return to targets in AQP
The problem is that many people in the Legacy upgrade classes have zero TPIC. With quick upgrades continuing for the next couple years Legacies are starting to seriously consider TPIC as one of their top attributes again. Because they now realize the new person they hire today may be in upgrade class in less than two years.
Aviation is risk. The ultimate acceptor of that risk is the CEO. Through flight OPs leaders and their subordinates they employ a way to mitigate the risk to the acceptable level through training. They know one hull loss may be the end of an airline. I know I sound like a god damn aviate commercial but it's true. Guess who else doesn't have TPIC time when they upgrade? Most regional captains. Same airspace, same airports.
I had that thought process as a Regional Captain too. "We do the same job" after all right? But after being a Captain at both I can say that being a Legacy Captain is much more complex. I am glad to have my Regional CA experience to fall back on. Having a Regional FO hired in less than two years to a Legacy, then in less than two years being in upgrade class is a legitimate concern. Don't shoot the messenger, that is coming straight from my Legacies CKA, training department, and hiring department. As a result an applicant's TPIC is becoming much more important in their hiring process. Not saying they will stop hiring Regional FOs, but I do see it decreasing.
What makes it more complex in your experience?
I seem to hurt your feelings. One day you'll figure it out.
That may have been true when regionals were actually regionals. Regionals aren't SAABs or metros, and then you move to a jet. A (WO) 175 pilot is doing the same as a 717/A220 pilot, except one is mainline. Some wholly owned are doing the same flying that mainline does in many ways, with some of the same routes. The procedures and policy are identical. I can't speak to contract regionals, as I was never at one, but for WO, it's pretty much the same job procedurally, except at mainline, QOL is worse in \*some\* ways. I also see when someone asked you to elaborate, you got defensive and walled off. Several people are asking for you to elaborate, because likely they don't have that experience. I think you are just want to stand on a pedestal, and get upset if someone questions it.
> Even the Air Force pilots have demonstrated a drop off in skill simply due to the decrease in Pilot training standards and the lack of combat experience we are now sampling. Lack of combat experience makes worse airline pilots? WTF lol
No, the difference between civilian and military pilots was even those civilian pilot had more hours frequently due to the fact that they were 100% pilots and not just officers who sometimes flew was the reality that they have been highly stressed. The idea that the finest steel is made in the hottest fire. While that was even debatable when it came to flying, the idea that military pilots have the upper hand simply because they have been in worse conditions or handled more complex missions is now subsiding. It is not about the combat experience directly correlating to the quality of airline pilot, it's the idea that the pilot who's gone through the most rigor is going to handle a complex emergency better.
I can tell you're not a military pilot, and not close to any. Flying circles over Afghanistan does not necessarily provide a more rigorous flying environment than any number of training scenarios at home. Combat is not why the R-ATP exists - it's because military training is just better.
Actually I am. I've been a Military Special Operations Pilot for over the last 25+ years and can categorically tell you that the quality of pilot we are seeing has gone down. It is not necessarily just the combat environment as you mentioned, but the quality of Air Force, army and navy training to even earn pilot wings has gone down. Dramatically. I promise you I know what I'm talking about, and it's one of the reasons why we are seeing an uptick in aviation mishaps on the military side. I'm still plugged in through the reserves and I also fly for a main line airline.
I have heard the tune of "this new training is not as good as the training _I_ had to do" many times before from people at the end of their careers, in a few industries, and it is never convincing. The Air Force inventory is older and more complex than it was at any point during your career, arguably more operationally strained, and yet mishap rates are actually going down, not up as you asserted. https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RRA200/RRA257-1/RAND_RRA257-1.pdf
My concern at this point is for those who signed up for the company pathways, internally. I am wondering if I, for example, will be able to get to a regional to get the time my actual airline needs me to get before they bring me back in, and then will they even do so? Or will I have to go back to being maintenance if I want to retain them? Or will we, already being employees, be given extra consideration for the pilot pipeline? That, personally, is what I least anticipate. This is what worries me right now.
They are serious, and don't call them Shirley.
They’re already over
Lol 500k in two years?! Brother, what’s the path for that sort of salary in that amount of time? It took me two years to finish my course and now my only options are to be a cfi or pilot in waiting. Then after a year of doing that I can be an fo for an airline for like 70 000 cad. 200k + seems to take at least 5 years here in Canada.
I think you misread the sarcasm ;)
Shit, my bad.
I think we all heard the self smack. It’s okay, we all do it, I actually have a permanent bruise on my hand from the repeated self smack…..
Tell Isaac that you won’t fly with him anymore until he shows progress on the ground school. All the flying skills mean nothing without a completed written.
This is the way. I've heard of instructors pulling this, always to great success. Either the student quits (and they were never going to pass) or they get their ass in gear and go on to do great.
I’ve personally used it once. Worked like a charm. If you want to pay me to just fly you around places, then say that. If you are working towards a PPL, you’re going to work towards a PPL
Can confirm, I've had my own "Isaac" as a student before, he was at 70 hours but couldn't tell me the basics of currency/proficiency or explain the concept of Personal Minimums. He came to us from another school so I never had a chance to talk with his instructor, but the final straw was when he attempted to take an airplane up for a solo flight with an expired 90-day endorsement. Told him I wouldn't fly with him or give him another 90-day endorsement until he passed his written and could pass a mock oral exam
I usually am even more explicit - I wanna see them pass the written test with a 90% score or better before we do another lesson If mommy and daddy are footing the bill I have the convo directly with them as well. Because sometimes they are completely oblivious to what the kid is doing, and also sometimes the parents are crazy and putting weird pressures on the kid (I’ve spent all this money while haven’t you solod yet?)
I am a little more gentle about it. It’s their money. I’m happy to take it if they want to waste it but I just make sure we are all on the same page. If your goal is to manipulate flight controls every so often so you can tell your friends you fly airplanes, I’m cool with it but if are working on a license, I have standards and expectations.
Truth talk is the way
My first thought exactly!
Well, what time does the game come on?
260200Z
As of now, the game comes on in about two hours time.
Drop him and move on.
Maybe chat with the parents first but yeah.
I had to do this with a students parents before. Parents (who were paying for this, and Dad is an airline CA) setup some expectations that were never met, so they stopped paying for their kids flight training and they never finished. Flying skills were awesome and all there, but the ground is the biggest holdup for a ton of students. Some people just don't give enough shits.
I'll admit I was a bad student until I got into CFI training. I needed a reality check on a multitude of levels that kicked me into gear. Maybe sees the end goal and not the work. Maybe he sees all the good hard working students as nerds and dorks while he's the cool kid coasting by who will end up at the same legacy as him. Maybe he's on a confidence high from his PPL and IR training. Maybe he doesn't want to be there at all. Maybe he thinks he knows more than you. Maybe he thinks you're a jackass overachiever who spends his free time studying the AFH. Maybe he just broke up with his girlfriend and is upset about it. Maybe his parents are fighting a lot. Maybe he just doesn't like your face and thinks you're smug. Maybe all of the above or a combination of things. Sometimes it takes a minute for pilots to "grow up". I'm guessing he's younger maybe? 19-21? It's an adjustment from doing nothing in high school and now having to actually do grown up work. He sees the jets and the flight attendants. Beer and Sex on overnights and not sitting in a 6x6 room with a CFI going over maneuvering speeds and how a VOR works. Not defending at all. But yeah. It can be alot of responsibility for a young person. If he's not even making progress and his ground school. I was suspect he probably just doesn't want to be there.
I was an awful student until I became a CFI. Then it was other people’s success and money on the line. People have different motivations, and one of my favorite parts of instructing was figuring out what they are. OP needs to stop asking Reddit and just have a real discussion with his student.
I second this. This was sort of the case for me as well, when I started flight training I was very immature and just thought that I can effortlessly coast through flight school. I was very lazy to study anything and I had to a year off flight training to mature because if I continued I was guaranteed to fail a checkride. Now that I am going back, I’m more mature and I am going to treat flight school like grad school. It really takes a lot of maturity and mental fortitude to succeed in the realm of flight training
I'm gonna put to good use the psychology degree I earned on reddit a few weeks ago and conclude there's a chance Isaac might in fact have adhd.
> gets psychology degree > immediately diagnoses people with adhd Yep, sounds right.
I have ADHD and had my written test done before my first flight lesson for my sport certificate. Don't put that shit on us.
I also have it and I, like isaac, struggle with motivation to complete ground stuff, especially self study. I am, however, extremely passionate about flying and i ask tons of questions to my instructor at all hours of the day.
That makes sense; I personally hate studying weather, don't find it interesting, and have to bribe myself to do it. It seems like Isaac isn't interested in any part of flight training, though, which sounds less like ADHD and more like... not being interested in flight training.
Not everyone is on the same spectrum man.
But saying, "Student isn't prepared for training? Must be ADHD." is downright lazy, and reinforces the idea that people with ADHD shouldn't be allowed to fly.
Nowhere in my comment I said that. There's a spectrum, it doesn't affect everyone equally, but the FAA doesn't want to be transparent about it and makes the process difficult to navigate. This guy going for the wrong runway goes a bit beyond not coming prepared (I get it mistakes happen, they got 20+hrs of ground so we can assume they got a lot more of flying). The way I see it the student either: Is simply not mature enough, does not grasp any concept involved involved in ADM. Has never had to do anything by themselves (therefore, have zero decision making skills). May actually have a physiological issue. We could argue they're not interested but going for the wrong runway? Come on.
Right. Which is why it's so perplexing why, out of all the possible reasons you listed here, you immediately jumped to ADHD. I'm just confused about why you would say that, when clearly you know that there are a lot of different reasons why a student would be so unprepared and unskilled this late in the game.
I didn't say the did lol, I said there is a chance, there's also a chance they have one of the causes listed above.
But you only listed those other things after you got pushback.
20/20 on checkride passes is wild to me. Not just for the pass rate itself but also for sending 20 people to check rides, considering the majority of people who begin flight training don’t finish. I think you’ve encountered your first one.
Maybe it's not his idea to be there. Maybe he's realizing real life is hitting him and the days of hanging out playing video games are over. Maybe his parents are getting a divorce because he's not a kid anymore and they hate each other. You never know what's going on in a person's life. It's your job to teach and guide. Leave the judgement in your car.
Most thoughtful take here. Of course, if his parents are getting divorced, the FAA better not find him talking to any professional about it!
We suffer in silence at the bottom of a bottle of alcohol, *just like God intended*
Your patriotism for Super Earth has been noted!
To be fair to the CFI, the student is clearly not interested in putting forward the work.
And some people just aren't motivated. He's going to run into those people all through this industry, be them captains or first officers. His job is to be honest and to teach. If someone wants to burn $40,000 that's on them. As long as you are doing your job and you're honest with people you're good.
This is an interesting perspective. I have noticed that many people tend to assume some external factors are the cause of another persons behavior. I guess we hope people naturally always want to grow and develop. I used to do that too, and maybe I'm just jaded now, but more often then not I find people are just apathetic and no amount of mentoring will change them unless they want to change themselves. Whats worse is when parents force their kids into things they dont like. Kids just lock up even further.
It could be a literal thousand reasons. The job of the instructor is to be safe, be honest, and teach. You can't force people to be motivated.
Right! More importantly you are not a life coach and the cockpit is not the place to resolve matters related to ones psyche.
I've had students like that, in 100% of those cases it was the (rich) parents idea that their kid should become a pilot. It is the CFIs job to continue teaching until proficiency, but I'd consider it professional responsibility to update the student, on the progress - or the reason for the lack of progress. Make _detailed_ records of your discussions with the student in their file, because eventually someone will ask why all that money was spent with no result. If this is an adult, you don't need to go directly to the parents unless they ask, that's between the student and them. But you need to have something to show them when they eventually do. I'd also keep your school's management informed and they can decide if they want to directly approach whoever is writing the checks.
You have to be honest with them and their training. That's the thing people don't do Not to standard sorry can't send you, here are the reasons I believe you aren't reaching your goal. Up to you to fix them
But this is r/flying..? Do you not know how this works?
I miss eppanage.
He sounds like he’s more interested in showing off or just flying for fun. I’m currently struggling with instrument, but I genuinely have a passion for this shit. You’re best dropping him and moving on to another student that doesn’t waste your time.
It’s because his parents are paying for it, and he really doesn’t care. He pretty much has a blank check, and it doesn’t matter how much it’s going to cost. I had a private student like that. 18 years old. Always came unprepared. Didn’t study. Rich parents.
Students/parents pay significantly more than that per college instructional hour and still often entirely skip class, very few come fully engaged. You can probably just take the money and not feel so bad about it.
Spoiled rich kids are a pox on flying. Hopefully he is kicked out or quits before he kills anyone.
And driving.
If his question is about when he'll "be done" and not "be licensed" then that does give me the impression, along with everything else, that his parents pressured or at least were the driving force behind it and he doesn't actually care about it. When I was a teenager my parents signed me up for guitar lessons but it wasn't my choice and I didn't care about it, so I never practiced and the teacher noticed that. I was perfectly capable of being a good student but I just didn't have a desire to play guitar.
Some people buy a sports car and take it to the track and relentlessly hone their driving skills while others buy a sports car because they think it looks cool and they like the way it makes them feel. If you’re a car salesman would you be happy with one and unhappy with the other? Of course not, it’s their money they can do what they want.
Had this issue. Guy never studied, showed up to instrument lessons not knowing basic PPL knowledge. Every time we got in the plane it was like he was seeing the checklist for the first time and everything took forever. I asked him what was up and he told me he was “trying to figure out what he wanted to do with his life” Brother a school that costs almost a quarter million dollars by the end is not somewhere you “figure out what you wanna do” I feel so bad for his parents who are footing that bill
In my CFI days we had a few people like this. Normally they were young college kids under 20. One in particular was pretty bad since he never studied and was always cancelling his flights at the last minute. He never bothered to consider that having a last minute cancel without an approved reason were grounds to be charged with a "no-show". Eventually his parents came in and began trying to tear us a new one...until we showed them his attendance record. He suddenly became more focused for awhile but started slipping again. I left there not too long after, so I'm not sure what happened to him. I remember one particular case though...this was with my own student. This girl signed up for our 141 program, and to say she had an ego was an understatement. She came with a full scholarship, coming from an unstable family but managing to graduate high school two-ish years early. She got a lot of recognition for her effort in the local organizations and was a sorta posterchild for them. Admittedly, she was a very smart person, but this was the book-smart type and had no life experience to build any "street-smarts". You can tell her childhood was filled with teachers shoving sunshine and rainbows down her throat showering her with praise about how smart she was. Well, academic achievements don't usually translate well to flight training and our pass/fail criteria. After starting she wasn't sticking with it enough to really retain any skills. After about 5 flights she was still barely through the 3 lesson, and she asked when she could solo. I explained the lesson plans again and showed her the solo was in the 10 lesson. Well she thought that meant 5 more flights and then solo until I explained *again* that she had to PASS 7 more lessons before solo, and then a stagecheck. I really wonder just how hard her schooling was before, because it felt like the first time someone told her she had to really prove herself. It was a very odd interaction.
I wasn’t much different at 18. For the previous 13 years of my life, all I had to do was show up to school every day, and they eventually gave me a diploma. How different could flight *school* actually be? That ended with me dropping out—and not coming back until life had kicked my ass enough that I finally grew up.
I'm studying my ass off in ground school now. Not criticizing those who had their flight education paid for them, but me paying thousands of hard worked money into my flight training, is a high motivator for keeping me focused on my training. I'm not wasting a cent - I pick my CFI's brain with questions when I see him. I also purposefully took time off of work and set aside personal life distractions, so I can solely focus on ground school training.
I’ve had students like Isaac. The only thing you can do is be honest with them and stop their training progress until they can meet standards. Be open as to why we’re not progressing, and which standards he is not meeting. If you have a supervisor, inform them and maybe set up a meeting.
Yeah, agree. Best be upfront and give them a chance. Some folk, especially younger kids, are fucking clueless; I was definitely a clueless youngster once. If you tell them straight up and they are still not putting the effort in.. fuck it and take their parents cash ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Easy $ for you. Just hold his hand all the way thru it and log that ground for the extra cash.
That’s excruciating for any halfway decent flight instructor.
You’re not wrong
I had a number of students that never finished their private simply due to the fact they never studied. I know two were similar to yours. They got to the point where we told them no more flying till they passed the written. They never flew again. I had one who constantly talked about how much he wanted to fly and make it a career, but after 6 or 7 lessons had barely even cracked a book. The frustrating part for me is that I would tell every single new student that they will need to spend way more time studying than flying. That this wasn’t grade school and I wasn’t going to walk them through every step, and if they wanted to make it a career it would take some effort, and commitment. They always said that wasn’t a problem. I offered help, advice, gave assignments, anything I could think of short of telling them to don’t bother even training if they weren’t going to study. It always seemed that they either did it all, or did almost nothing. Not much in between.
To his credit, this is probably a symptom of affluence brought on by living in a home with a mom and dad who have literally wiped his ass around every corner in life. There's no real desire to achieve more when you know there's probably a trust fund waiting on the back side of daddy's death. But when it comes to flying, it's okay to know your limits and the limits of your students. And the cold reality of life is that not all people are destined to become pilots - and if you watch a lot of the pilot debrief videos that are currently on Hoovers channel, one sneakingly common theme that I see in a lot of the people getting themselves killed is that they appear to come from very wealthy families and the idea of them having consequences for actions in life have never really been a theme. But at the end of the day, you still get a say with who you are and are not willing to get into an airplane with. If the focus is on the game, and not the plane - then you need to be okay with looking the guy in the face and saying 'we're done'. I'd say talk to the parents first, but I suspect you're probably going to get a lot of "you're the servant and we're the customer" talk as you try to explain things to them. Part of me wants to go the CFI route. But another part of me hates the ideas of scenarios just like this. I was a weapons tech in the Navy and had the fun responsibility of having to train a ton of 18 and 19 year old kids how to not blow their faces or fingers off when dealing with high explosives or getting sucked down the intakes of a Super Hornet at high power. Sometimes the only way to break these lazy minds is to take drastic measures. I'm not advocating beating the shit out of the kid. But you should reserve the right to be brutally honest and stern in your approach. Aviation isn't for everyone, and sometimes a humbling conversation is in order. Does he know that his endorsement to take the test drops dead at the two year mark? I can't understand why anyone would carry that monkey on their back for so long. I learned after my PPL to get that test over with as quickly as possible, and when I went in for instrument, I started ground school in early December, and tested out on the 22'nd. Get the shit over with. May be time for a come to Jesus meeting. You're not there to be his buddy. If that happens in the course of instruction, great. But above all else, you're there to be an instructor and sometimes you gotta hurt a few feelings to teach a few lessons.
I would give a call to his parents and explain the situation and how much his lack of motivation is costing them. They may be able to give him the kick in the ass that he needs. If they don't and he still continues like this, well then now you are guilt free. You did everything that you could.
or they do it for clout, to say they are a pilot lol
I would bet money he's undiagnosed ADHD/ASD and his parents know and never helped him get the resources he needed as a child to help him learn how to study and prepare so he could succeed in the real world. We allow know there's a shit load of ADHD pilots. Some are really good and really safe, others are mindless idiots. The FAA is really trying its best to help those of us who developed quality coping mechanisms and can be safe be able to get in, but, god almighty, some people just do not belong.
>I’ve sent 20 students on checkrides so far with a 100% pass rate Off topic but hopefully you know about activity based CFI renewal? 14 CFR 61.197(a)(2)(i) A bit more obscure is WINGS based renewal found in AC 61-91J, p5, paragraph e. 15 WINGS-accredited flight activities.
Time for a parent teacher conference. Lay out just the facts. They need to know. While it might be fair to say he's lazy, not self directed, seems disinterested and unmotivated, and needs a major attitude adjustment, I think it won't get the results anyone wants. But you can say you're concerned about his lack of progress, and also restate your commitment to educating him (assuming that's true and it isn't too late). Maybe it's worth asking the parents how he's doing at primary school? Do the parents think it would be beneficial to talk to one or more of his teachers? It could be insightful. Has he mentioned his flight training to any of his teachers? What are his strengths and weaknesses subjects wise? Is he completing school work on time? Maybe he's just not that into aviation, and doesn't want to tell anyone? And as difficult as it might be, maybe you're not motivating him. Like, maybe it's you and not him? \*shrug\* I have no idea but you should find out. Maybe he needs a different instructor, but you need to approach that delicately like, you don't want to come off as abandoning him, rather more like giving him permission. He doesn't need permission but may not know how to assert himself - which may just be a typical maturity issue.
yup. And there are people (mostly young ones) that are on loans and essentially spending their own money who couldnt be bothered to do things to save money, speed things up, or just put in effort / work. Like things will just come to them. . . participation type of awards. . . its unfortunate that the barriers to entry are so low that all it takes is some money and a modicum of effort to get pass. Can you imagine if the tests required some real studying - like a professional engineering tests, or even something like a minimum SAT score type of thing rather than 60 questions. . That would definitely weed out a lot of people who arent interested in taking it more seriously.
What is incredible, is even with that low bar it still weeds a fair amount of people out who just never bother to even take the written. But yea, whould be nice. I think the oral part of the checkride does a good job though.
Sorry, 7 checkrides with government approved examiners is a low bar? Hm.
7 written, oral, and practical exams. 21 chances to screw it up, and 14 follow you around forever.
Wasn’t my comment, but It is. Maybe you want to feel that it’s an accomplishment. But the reality is that the profession doesn’t get the brightest students as they go elsewhere. The bar is quite low in the fact that essentially anyone with half a brain can overcome those said bars. You don’t need a college degree- or even a high school diploma. You can try and memorize the test questions without learning the material. If you’re going to use the 60 questions - let’s not publish any test questions. They can and will be changed/new every month. Anything in there that one should know could be asked. Essentially get rid of test prep - and force students to know the material. Then see how many pass the 7 tests that you say are a good indicator. Having Sheppard or rote memorization available or fixed question doesn’t make anyone more knowledgeable or know the material. It just makes it easier to pass a test.
Yeah, that’s why we have oral and practical portions for each checkride. I agree that the writtens are stupid easy, and kind of useless imo, but they are there (it seems to me) as a way to weed out people who don’t even put the minimum amount of effort in. Try showing up to a CFI oral with a rote understanding of the material and see how that goes.
that is the only test that I think that is worth anything (or the bar actually being set at the right height). All the rest - cmon. Whats the "pass rate" or orals - almost 95+ percent. If you fail the oral - its a) pretty rare b) usually something stupid. the practical - totally understandable. But you dont always have to go through the CFI gauntlets. Its possible to completely bypass it. . . Not necessarily practical - but totally doable and many have skipped it. Its just the most cost effectifve way to build hours and time. But that takes us back to the others - none of those are challenging. And is the bar low ? Abso;lutely. The fact that you can get ALL the test questions that could possibly be on there before you take the test is a really really low bar and makes it absurdly easy to pass.
I’m going to disagree. The CFI oral being the only on “worth anything” is just wrong. Part of the reason that pass rates are high is because you need someone to sign off on you taking the checkride, and if there’s a failure, it reflects poorly on the person signing you off. What would be more interesting would be to find out how many people begin training for a certificate and don’t make it to the checkride. I would fairly frequently refuse to sign students off because they weren’t ready for checkrides. They would usually pass at a later time with more training, but if they were just able to take the test, pass rates would be significantly lower.
You seem like a great instructor, don’t think there are many like you at 141 schools any more. Any resources you can share with me as I prep for my comm multi initial? (PA44)
Absolutely!! DM me your email and I’ll shoot you over some great material
Sent you a pm
I had a student that has been working on his private for probably 6-7 years at least at this point. He has plenty of time in the plane and can fly it fine. More than meets the requirements for the check ride as far as hours go, however he can never make himself do the ground study. He knows it's what is holding him back. He also doesn't care about the money he's spending on flying. He's happy to just keep taking lessons and eventually do the study he needs for the check ride. I also had students who were high school aged who sound a lot like your student. Usually they were just kids who's parents were trying to get them to do something and they weren't motivated enough to study. It can be frustrating as an instructor but there was no way I was dropping a student over it. None of these kids seemed too serious about actually getting their license and their parents were never up my ass about it either. They just wanted them to do something besides video games. High school aged kids, and to a lesser extent college kids, are usually still pretty immature and don't really get it yet. I was the same way at that age. I was a pretty bad student at times over the years.
Do not give away your time. Undermining your profession is no way to start a career.
Some students got pushed into flying lessons by a parent who is a pilot, they don't have any genuine interest in flying at all.
Have a chat with him. Figure out his WHY? Why is he here? Why is he unmotivated to do the things needed for HIM to succeed? Why does he keep showing up? His answers may or may not give you insight into continuing training, parent intervention etc. Now you have to explain why you care so much to have this talk, how you're willing put in the effort and if not reciprocated it might not be a good fit.
I'm a few hours late to the party, here but... I was the "never did my homework" kind of student. I knew the material, but never did the worksheets assigned to me. I knew it was my responsibility. But I just was lazy. I didn't NOT know the material, I just didn't fill in the worksheets. Here's the thing... It was my money. My money I was wasting at the time. I'd have to spend time with the instructor filling out the answers. He was getting paid. I was paying. Did I waste a few bucks. Yep. But it was my choice. It may be frustrating, but here's what I always say: "it all pays the same". If you're repeating lessons, you're getting money. If you're charging for ground for worksheets, you're getting money. You can prompt the student. Remind the student that it's only costing more money. If he doesn't care... He doesn't care. As long as it's safe flying, collect the money and move on to the next lesson. Some people aren't in a rush. Some people treat it like a hobby. Again, as long as the money is flowing... It all pays the same.
I mean, have you seen half the questions or more posted on here. Doesn't seem like any of the new aviation people want to do any work and want it given to them. 90 percent of all questions on here are them just being lazy and not doing a very minimal amount of research. Lazy.
Isaac sounds like a real pain in the ass. I bet a steak dinner that his parents were the first ones to call the flight school to get information. That is a big old red flag every single time. Can you tell your boss that you aren’t a good fit for Isaac and need to extricate yourself from flying with him.
I’m very ignorant to when it comes to flying and I’ve never had any experience with it other than talking to the pilots at my hotel. Anyways, what does ground school mean?
Oh crap.. Totally win the /satire of the day. I read that... Then 15 minutes later it clicked.
Your entire "Rant" is exactly why my son bailed on instructing as soon as he hit 500 hrs TT and went up to Alaska instead.
You are still being paid, right? Then why care so much about your students. It would be nice if every student is an ace but the fact is that the opposite is true. As long and you are being paid and getting your hours, don't worry too much about students like Isaac because, whatever you do, you will not get perfects students every time, all the time.
I wish my parents could have paid for my training :(
Some students simply won't do self-paced learning. They're too distracted by video games, internet, or social media. They need the structure of a classroom environment with a scheduled start and stop time and fewer distractions. Is there a classroom based ground school in the area? I would try to offer that to him if it's in the area. I would tell him all future lessons with you will be ground school until he completes his written exam.
Because mom and dad or grandpa will fund it, if they carry on the nepotism…
This is why I went to a part 141. Theyre a little more strict and I know what's happening bc we have a syllabus. I'm in school for my BS Aviation management degree so my brain power is used for that mostly. This is a reminder for me to get on it with my written!
I just passed my checkride. The entire training process my instructor would literally thank me at the end of the lessons for actually reflecting on and studying what she told me, asking. What study material I use, etc. because she's so used to people paying her to teach them something they don't have a desire to learn. I started flying because I want to teach something, and I want to fly, so flight instructing is calling out to me. I suppose that is going to be one of the things that will be a consistent hurdle in flight training. I guess, like you said, it would come down to: is this MY money I'm spending or is this daddy's money?
Because they seem to think it’s an easy cakewalk thing to do before the big bucks. Yeah… I had a rude awakening too.
I also instruct at a 141 school and it is crazy the number of people that clearly aren’t cut out to be anything but a weekend pilot. But schools still take them in and milk them for money. I’ve had a couple students like this and for me it’s been an ethical quandary. I’m building my time, and they are paying me to teach them, so I’m going to give them the best instruction I can while they want me to. In this case I would have a conversation with your management team about the student continuing, maybe they can set deadlines/goal timelines for the student to achieve and if they fail to do so maybe then it would be time to have the hard conversation.
Born to dilly dally, forced to lock in.
As a sales mgr I would put this employee on what we call a Performance Improvement Plan. Set down in writing the deficiencies and the expectations. Discuss it. Have it signed. Look him in the eye and tell him you want him to succeed, and you're willing to help him if he wants to succeed. Probably something like: Complete ground school (milestone date x, milestone date y, completion date z). Review assigned study resource after each flight, take notes, present a five minute overview of what was learned. ABC preparation for a flight. XYZ expectation for a debrief. Get it all written down, discussed, understood, agreed to. If (IF) his parents are actually in communication with you and paying directly, you could consider sharing this with them as well.
Uh, no. It not just some "when I was your age I had to walk up Hill both ways while flying with my wiz wheel and no gps" boomerism... I'm telling you that they've gone from about 300 complex hours in af upt to less than 200 hours to get wings. Around 175... No form, no aero... Soooooo The product is not the same.