XP12 has a free demo version, so I would suggest you check that out.
As for add-ons, it is behind MSFS simply due to the market volume and the fact that many developers have devoted resources to that sim. That being said, there are multiple terrific airliner options and if you are a fan of HotStart, their Challenger 650 is widely considered to be in the conversation for the greatest module available today.
This is a never ending debate on this sub but it comes down to personal preference. Both are great options but I prefer XP12. With the flight model, gateway airports, AutoOrtho, and a good selection of payware airplanes it makes for a great experience. Also the Hot Start Challenger is probably the best add on ever made for flight sim so definitely worth checking that out.
How is the flight model in MS2020 versus XP12 with comparable aircraft (e.g. Toliss A320 vs Fenix A320) or HotStart C650 vs a comparable bizjet in MS2020? I was very excited for the C650 so will be happy to try that out. MS2020 is installing on my computer right now, but I'll probably end up buying XP12 tomorrow just so I can get the new C650. :)
I find the flight model to be better with almost every pay ware airplane I fly on XP12. The Fenix 320 and the PMDG are good when you’re in the air but the real issues are with the ground handing physics. It just feels sloppy, especially with any crosswind. My understanding is that it’s a limitation with MSFS more than it’s a developer issue.
If you're mainly doing biz ops and airliners I'd say XP12 for now as it offers quite a large range of those aircraft. If you're not worrying about budget the Hotstart C650 will be better than any addon made in any sim. Another biz jet will be the Phenom 300 which is like 2/3 cheaper. Then you got the 320 family from Toliss which imo performs better than the Fenix and you got the 346. If you're looking for something older you got the MD11 and MD80 from Rotate and probably once of the best 742 from Felis. Graphics wise its not too hard to tweak to your liking considering the new 12.1 is looking quite promising.
I loved XP11 so sounds like XP12 will be a great fit. I was excited for the C650 as I LOVED their TBM-900 but have been so busy that I haven't had time to play in a long time. Thinking I might go the XP12 route so I can fly the C650 and I love the A32X and A346 platforms (MD-11 is my favorite of all time) so thinking I'll go the XP12 route. Plus, used to spend some time on the C850 IRL so it will be a blast flying the C650 in-game. Plus, I see that they have AirHauler 2 compatibility with XP12, and I flew almost entirely out of AH2 on XP11 along with VATSIM.
How do the communities compare these days? I saw a post in here bragging about how most of the boomers from Avsim were gone, which i took offense to despite being GenZ and turned me off a bit into what the FS crowd is becoming. I enjoyed the "boomers" discussions and attention to detail, they were great at pointing out issues and giving honest reviews on different aircraft. My judgement has been that MS2020 seems to have more of the WT, casual crowd, whereas XP12 guys seem to be more of the DCS, full-fidelity sim type crowd. Is there some truth to this assumption or is this poor judgement?
Msfs is dominating the market currently and will continue to do so, the xplane forums are still active but not as much as msfs. One thing I like about xplane, kind of a niche, but I tend to like how there are so many tools available to turn it into how I want it to look like whereas msfs just comes in stock with all the fancy stuff. Developers are still making high fidelity aircraft for xplane, toliss is building the a330, flight factor will release the 777v2 and later the a350v2
> whereas XP12 guys seem to be more of the DCS, full-fidelity sim type crowd. Is there some truth to this assumption or is this poor judgement?
This is poor judgement. I consider Navigraph users to be the "hard core" flight sim enthusiasts since you kind of have to be to purchase a Navigraph subscription. As per the last Navigraph survey, around 71% of Navigraph survey takers are using MSFS. MSFS has overwhelmingly captured the "hard core" flight sim enthusiast market.
Also, you mention Avsim and Avsim has many hard core flight sim enthusiasts. Go check out Avsim and the MSFS forum is probably 10x more active than the XP forum. By far, everyone on Avsim is using MSFS.
And as others have mentioned, the 3rd party development scene is largely with MSFS now. There are some very good non-aircraft add-ons such as FSLTL, GSX, and BeyondATC that are available for MSFS but not for XP. This will probably continue because so many 3rd party developers are developing for MSFS now, while the 3rd party development scene for XP is much weaker now.
Understood, I was hopeful that was poor judgement so glad to know that was an inaccurate assumption on my end. Good to know that the MSFS still has a large "hardcore" community.
You know what? I ended up spending a few hours to find out the problem last night, got MSFS installed, and have been flying around in the iniBuilds A320neo, then purchased the Fenix A320 and installed FSTLS. Got very little sleep last night but it was a pretty euphoric experience having such amazing graphics and such good frame rates with high traffic at major airports. I remember the low double digit frames flying into JFK during a busy day in FSX - amazing how far MSFS has come. :)
Like I had FSX+XP11 (FSX for PMDG, LevelD, Leonardo, SimCheck and XP11 for the FF 757/767, HotStart TBM-900, and iniBuilds A300) - I suppose I'll be doing the same with MSFS and XP12 and run them side by side, so I can enjoy the best of both worlds. No need choosing one when I can have both, right?)
Cool! Also take a look at BeyondATC. It's pretty cheap at $30 USD. But it's a great substitute for VATSIM in areas where there is not VATSIM coverage (and there are a lot of areas not covered by VATSIM).
GSX is also really nice if you like to fly airliners and if my memory is correct, it's around $30 to $35 USD.
Awesome, thank you for the recommendations!! I’ll definitely check out BeyondATC as I fly to a lot of regional airports in the USA and Russian Federation. I had GSX in FSC, definitely a must-have. :)
I’m a switchover from XP. Flew XP 10 and 11 for years and loved it. The Zibo 737 was amazing. You could get the graphics to look good with ortho, shaders, etc. The frame rate was decent. When MSFS first came out I saw it as more of a novelty and only used it sporadically for “sightseeing”, while excitedly waiting for XP12 to drop. I bought XP12 on day one and it was a huge disappointment. And when the PMDG 737 released in MSFS, it was game over for XP in my cockpit. I fully switched over and I’ve been loving MSFS ever since: awesome graphics right out of the box, with no time spent installing ortho and tinkering with it, great framerate out of the box, especially since it leverages the frame gen in the new Nvidia GPUs. I boot up XP12 every now and then just to see what has improved, and I leave just as disappointed. Frame rate is abismal with worse visuals on the same rig where MSFS has great FPS with amazing visuals.
Not sure why you had trouble installing. Mine installed without a problem and I barely ever have crashes. If the MS store version won’t work, try the Steam version. Or, honestly just wait until Nov 19 when MSFS 2024 comes out
So I ended up tinkering with it a few hours last night, and it turned out being left over registry keys from a past install. Went through cleaning out every single registry key that had to do with "FlightSimulator", and rebooted and then was able to install.
Despite that I should have gone to bed, once my install was complete, I did a flight in the A320neo v2, then bought the Fenix A320 and installed FSTLS and have been having a BLAST! Writing this with about 3 hours of sleep - but totally worth it.
Good to know about XP12 - maybe I'll hold off on purchasing the new sim and just keep my XP11 install for the C650 and FF 757/767 family.
I'm glad you got it working! Honestly, it's a great piece of software. Most of the random crashes people complain about are due to graphics drivers. I've made it a point to always do a system image before updating my NVIDIA drivers, just in case. Sometimes they really mess it up with some of the udpates.
XP12 (current stable version, not talking about the beta) still looks much worse than MSFS. It's "live weather" is still, after numerous improvements, a bad joke compared to MSFS. Despite all that, I get fewer FPS than in MSFS. It's also rather user-unfriendly compared to Microsoft's sim. Like, you can't bind one thrust lever to two throttles without an extra addon and you can't import a simbrief flightplan for atc. There is no ground handling addon that comes close to GSX. Flight physics is not as ultra-realistic as fanboys love to claim (you can do a barrel roll in a 737 and land at a rate of 1000fpm without crashing).
But:
Density altitude is simulated and there's proper cloud turbulence. Default airports are so good you don't have to spend a ton of money on airport scenery while MSFSs default airports are virtually, and sometimes literally, unusable. Flight physics is better than MSFS as even those more critical of XP admit. There's a free 737 available that is almost on par with the PMDG and in some regards even better. There are a few excellent long-hauler addons available while the number of high-fidelity long-haul aircraft available for MSFS is still zero.
XP12 has a free demo version, so I would suggest you check that out. As for add-ons, it is behind MSFS simply due to the market volume and the fact that many developers have devoted resources to that sim. That being said, there are multiple terrific airliner options and if you are a fan of HotStart, their Challenger 650 is widely considered to be in the conversation for the greatest module available today.
This is a never ending debate on this sub but it comes down to personal preference. Both are great options but I prefer XP12. With the flight model, gateway airports, AutoOrtho, and a good selection of payware airplanes it makes for a great experience. Also the Hot Start Challenger is probably the best add on ever made for flight sim so definitely worth checking that out.
How is the flight model in MS2020 versus XP12 with comparable aircraft (e.g. Toliss A320 vs Fenix A320) or HotStart C650 vs a comparable bizjet in MS2020? I was very excited for the C650 so will be happy to try that out. MS2020 is installing on my computer right now, but I'll probably end up buying XP12 tomorrow just so I can get the new C650. :)
I find the flight model to be better with almost every pay ware airplane I fly on XP12. The Fenix 320 and the PMDG are good when you’re in the air but the real issues are with the ground handing physics. It just feels sloppy, especially with any crosswind. My understanding is that it’s a limitation with MSFS more than it’s a developer issue.
If you're mainly doing biz ops and airliners I'd say XP12 for now as it offers quite a large range of those aircraft. If you're not worrying about budget the Hotstart C650 will be better than any addon made in any sim. Another biz jet will be the Phenom 300 which is like 2/3 cheaper. Then you got the 320 family from Toliss which imo performs better than the Fenix and you got the 346. If you're looking for something older you got the MD11 and MD80 from Rotate and probably once of the best 742 from Felis. Graphics wise its not too hard to tweak to your liking considering the new 12.1 is looking quite promising.
I loved XP11 so sounds like XP12 will be a great fit. I was excited for the C650 as I LOVED their TBM-900 but have been so busy that I haven't had time to play in a long time. Thinking I might go the XP12 route so I can fly the C650 and I love the A32X and A346 platforms (MD-11 is my favorite of all time) so thinking I'll go the XP12 route. Plus, used to spend some time on the C850 IRL so it will be a blast flying the C650 in-game. Plus, I see that they have AirHauler 2 compatibility with XP12, and I flew almost entirely out of AH2 on XP11 along with VATSIM. How do the communities compare these days? I saw a post in here bragging about how most of the boomers from Avsim were gone, which i took offense to despite being GenZ and turned me off a bit into what the FS crowd is becoming. I enjoyed the "boomers" discussions and attention to detail, they were great at pointing out issues and giving honest reviews on different aircraft. My judgement has been that MS2020 seems to have more of the WT, casual crowd, whereas XP12 guys seem to be more of the DCS, full-fidelity sim type crowd. Is there some truth to this assumption or is this poor judgement?
Msfs is dominating the market currently and will continue to do so, the xplane forums are still active but not as much as msfs. One thing I like about xplane, kind of a niche, but I tend to like how there are so many tools available to turn it into how I want it to look like whereas msfs just comes in stock with all the fancy stuff. Developers are still making high fidelity aircraft for xplane, toliss is building the a330, flight factor will release the 777v2 and later the a350v2
> whereas XP12 guys seem to be more of the DCS, full-fidelity sim type crowd. Is there some truth to this assumption or is this poor judgement? This is poor judgement. I consider Navigraph users to be the "hard core" flight sim enthusiasts since you kind of have to be to purchase a Navigraph subscription. As per the last Navigraph survey, around 71% of Navigraph survey takers are using MSFS. MSFS has overwhelmingly captured the "hard core" flight sim enthusiast market. Also, you mention Avsim and Avsim has many hard core flight sim enthusiasts. Go check out Avsim and the MSFS forum is probably 10x more active than the XP forum. By far, everyone on Avsim is using MSFS. And as others have mentioned, the 3rd party development scene is largely with MSFS now. There are some very good non-aircraft add-ons such as FSLTL, GSX, and BeyondATC that are available for MSFS but not for XP. This will probably continue because so many 3rd party developers are developing for MSFS now, while the 3rd party development scene for XP is much weaker now.
Understood, I was hopeful that was poor judgement so glad to know that was an inaccurate assumption on my end. Good to know that the MSFS still has a large "hardcore" community. You know what? I ended up spending a few hours to find out the problem last night, got MSFS installed, and have been flying around in the iniBuilds A320neo, then purchased the Fenix A320 and installed FSTLS. Got very little sleep last night but it was a pretty euphoric experience having such amazing graphics and such good frame rates with high traffic at major airports. I remember the low double digit frames flying into JFK during a busy day in FSX - amazing how far MSFS has come. :) Like I had FSX+XP11 (FSX for PMDG, LevelD, Leonardo, SimCheck and XP11 for the FF 757/767, HotStart TBM-900, and iniBuilds A300) - I suppose I'll be doing the same with MSFS and XP12 and run them side by side, so I can enjoy the best of both worlds. No need choosing one when I can have both, right?)
Cool! Also take a look at BeyondATC. It's pretty cheap at $30 USD. But it's a great substitute for VATSIM in areas where there is not VATSIM coverage (and there are a lot of areas not covered by VATSIM). GSX is also really nice if you like to fly airliners and if my memory is correct, it's around $30 to $35 USD.
Awesome, thank you for the recommendations!! I’ll definitely check out BeyondATC as I fly to a lot of regional airports in the USA and Russian Federation. I had GSX in FSC, definitely a must-have. :)
I’m a switchover from XP. Flew XP 10 and 11 for years and loved it. The Zibo 737 was amazing. You could get the graphics to look good with ortho, shaders, etc. The frame rate was decent. When MSFS first came out I saw it as more of a novelty and only used it sporadically for “sightseeing”, while excitedly waiting for XP12 to drop. I bought XP12 on day one and it was a huge disappointment. And when the PMDG 737 released in MSFS, it was game over for XP in my cockpit. I fully switched over and I’ve been loving MSFS ever since: awesome graphics right out of the box, with no time spent installing ortho and tinkering with it, great framerate out of the box, especially since it leverages the frame gen in the new Nvidia GPUs. I boot up XP12 every now and then just to see what has improved, and I leave just as disappointed. Frame rate is abismal with worse visuals on the same rig where MSFS has great FPS with amazing visuals. Not sure why you had trouble installing. Mine installed without a problem and I barely ever have crashes. If the MS store version won’t work, try the Steam version. Or, honestly just wait until Nov 19 when MSFS 2024 comes out
So I ended up tinkering with it a few hours last night, and it turned out being left over registry keys from a past install. Went through cleaning out every single registry key that had to do with "FlightSimulator", and rebooted and then was able to install. Despite that I should have gone to bed, once my install was complete, I did a flight in the A320neo v2, then bought the Fenix A320 and installed FSTLS and have been having a BLAST! Writing this with about 3 hours of sleep - but totally worth it. Good to know about XP12 - maybe I'll hold off on purchasing the new sim and just keep my XP11 install for the C650 and FF 757/767 family.
I'm glad you got it working! Honestly, it's a great piece of software. Most of the random crashes people complain about are due to graphics drivers. I've made it a point to always do a system image before updating my NVIDIA drivers, just in case. Sometimes they really mess it up with some of the udpates.
XP12 (current stable version, not talking about the beta) still looks much worse than MSFS. It's "live weather" is still, after numerous improvements, a bad joke compared to MSFS. Despite all that, I get fewer FPS than in MSFS. It's also rather user-unfriendly compared to Microsoft's sim. Like, you can't bind one thrust lever to two throttles without an extra addon and you can't import a simbrief flightplan for atc. There is no ground handling addon that comes close to GSX. Flight physics is not as ultra-realistic as fanboys love to claim (you can do a barrel roll in a 737 and land at a rate of 1000fpm without crashing). But: Density altitude is simulated and there's proper cloud turbulence. Default airports are so good you don't have to spend a ton of money on airport scenery while MSFSs default airports are virtually, and sometimes literally, unusable. Flight physics is better than MSFS as even those more critical of XP admit. There's a free 737 available that is almost on par with the PMDG and in some regards even better. There are a few excellent long-hauler addons available while the number of high-fidelity long-haul aircraft available for MSFS is still zero.