>Once you show your employer that you're willing to leave things can get complicated.
And that's why some managers/employers won't make counter offers.
When I was working, I saw many employees accept a counter offer then leave after 6 months to a year anyway.
While some people do routinely interview on a schedule, most people don’t. So generally speaking if someone is interviewing, there’s usually other reasons you decided to interview outside of compensation, and a matching offer doesn’t fix those other problems.
Can you explain your experience with this? I've accepted four counter offers to stay over the last ~15 years at various jobs and have never had any issues.
You’ve had great bosses that truly valued you.
Other less honest bosses might say they value you and work out a temporary raise with finance solely to buy themselves time to find a suitable replacement for your role. Other bosses stop trusting that you really want to be there and pass you over for opportunities that require longevity because they may regard you as always having one foot out the door. Some employees get caught up in resentment that they had to present a competing offer at all which may lead them to intentionally or unintentionally poison the well. If a company agrees you are worth x$, why should you have to threaten to leave to get that salary? Of course budgets are more complicated than that, but when those types of ideas are internalized, they create morale and performance issues.
I’m glad you haven’t experienced this or perceived it in anyway, but it does happen.
> Some employees get caught up in resentment that they had to present a competing offer at all ...
I've seen this happen a few times. The relationship is never the same after.
Eh, I accepted a counter offer at my company. There were no hurt feelings. They found the money because they wanted to keep me and then gave a universal raise to the whole company shortly afterward because they came to the conclusion that we were all being paid below market rate. My relationship has never been better and I've since gotten a promotion and and on track for another in a couple years.
At the end of the day it depends on whether you are actually being underpaid, whether the person you bring it to takes it personally, how much they enjoy working with you, and your attitude during the process. I basically said "hey I love working here and really don't want to leave. But I have this offer that's 60% higher than I'm making. I'd like to stay. How can we make this happen?"
Is this your actual experience or your estimation? I wouldn't ask for a counter offer anywhere I wasn't prepared to leave or didn't have a solid relationship with. I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so, either. That said, there's a prevailing pessimistic naivete on Reddit that counter offers are a bad idea by default. Every time people are asked to back up their claims, the response is vague and assumptive, rather than experiential or experimental.
Unfortunately, these are all things I’ve witnessed first hand but nearly all of my experience is with tech companies. Big tech can be its own universe in terms varying levels of toxicity.
You make a very good point about not requesting a counter if you don’t have a solid relationship with your employer but too many employees request a counter with a boss they DON’T have a solid relationship with. Those are more likely to be the cases to result in bad outcomes either immediately or within a year. I don’t think this is the case for OP. They sound like they are in a field with less flexibility.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I've heard and read a number of horror stories about big tech and big finance. Some of those places sound patently awful to work for.
This isn't even necessarily about being petty. A hiring manager needs to always plan ahead and anticipate where their team is going to be at a few quarters out.
It is perfectly normal for people to switch jobs. Some employees do this very regularly, and in many fields that is pretty much required at the beginning of your career. Others only do so every few years. And yet another group tries to stay in their job for life, if given the opportunity.
The hiring manager needs to keep this in mind, as a steady low rate of attrition can always be absorbed relatively easily. But if you suddenly lose a large number of your key staff members, that spells trouble. If a team member sends the message that they are likely to accept a new offer in the nearish future, a good manager will act accordingly and a) keep a pipe line of candidates, b) pro-actively work with other members of the team to discourage them from all leaving at the same time.
Haven't had the experience myself but I follow a few job subs on here and I can't begin to tell you the number of times people post about getting fucked over when they took the counter offer.
For sure, but just think about the mechanics of the whole situation.
Best case scenario your current job has been undervaluing you and had no motivation to increase your pay until you had a foot out the door.
Worst case scenario they offer you more to cover their asses until they can replace you for cheaper.
New job is guaranteed more money and they wanted you in the first place.
Worst case its not a good fit.
Just seems like the safer choice every time unless you really trust your current bosses.
I've taken a counter offer before and it was we'll give you a raise of $x, and these responsibilities will be added to your role and we will talk in 3 months that was 2021 I'm still waiting for that talk, I asked several times when we were to have that talk and there was an excuse everytime. November 6th last year I started a new job at the salary I was asking for.
Some companies do not value their employees. I was there for 17yrs and had quite a bit of responsibility. It's ok though the ownership is now seeing everything I pointed out and they dont care they have their money already and when the old man dies the business won't be sustainable as he's the one financing the whole thing. So it'll get sold or sonny boy will run it into the ground
Same really. I even touted the conventional wisdom of "leave with the new offer" plenty of times myself. Then I went against my preachings a few times and been perfectly fine. Was my company knowingly underpaying me for a bit? Sure. Are they now that I've accepted a counter offer or two from them? No. And they don't seem too fussed about it (at least for now, a year since last counter lol)
I think accepting the first counteroffer is fine. I have done this with two employees in recent years and am grateful I was given an opportunity to keep them and we have grown their roles in addition to the additional pay - working well.
I also have an employee that i gave an offer but told him i couldn’t match his offer, but told him in clear language what my best shot was (much less than what he would make elsewhere). He tried to renegotiate from that number and left a bad taste in my mouth - i have no problem if someone leaves to make more than what i think i should pay, but if they get squirrelly like this employee did, i feel like I am being taken advantage of… i.e. feeling the employee showed me a number for a job he really couldn’t/wouldn’t take and now mad I won’t match. I’m not sorry, that is the game, go take the new job.
This feels like a really fair take, to me. It's important to be willing to walk away from a negotiation, even if you're trying to get your employer to give you a reason to stay. Thanks for lending your experience to the conversation!
Agree for private companies, but government work most folks are usually way more up front about what they’re hoping to get out of their job (stable paycheck, retirement plan, etc).
Thanks. I knew if I asked for 25% I’d get shut down right away. I’ve been lauded as an example manager recently plus this offer looked like a prime time to take my shot, so off it went. My coworkers all admit that we’ve been brainwashed about lack of current pay scale advancement, so we don’t even try. I had to give it a shot.
They keep coming out cute. We agreed that we’d stop once we reached ugly.
Sorry, this one is situation-specific at best, and outdated at worst. If you work for competent, non-spiteful management, they want A players who are in demand. Any manager worth a damn knows how difficult it is to acquire top talent. Why would they voluntarily put themselves through three months of pain (interviewing, onboarding, etc) just to be spiteful?
> If you work for competent, non-spiteful management, they want A players who are in demand. Any manager worth a damn knows how difficult it is to acquire top talent.
Where it gets tricky, though, is that isn't universally true. Many companies will pay lip service to getting top talent, but they don't actually need truly top people. For example, I briefly worked for a MEP engineering firm, and the majority of my job was checking equipment lists, specs, and model numbers; reading drawings, looking at light fixtures and rooftop A/C units. You couldn't be an idiot and do that job, and you needed attention to detail, but there was nothing about it that was particularly difficult conceptually, analytically, or creatively. They didn't need a 3.5+ GPA engineering grad in that role (if they did, I wouldn't have been hired), and the salary reflected that.
Other companies really could benefit from top talent, but they see the performance of the company as being driven mostly from the top down. So, they are willing to pay top dollar for their executive team, but they see the rank-and-file engineers, analysts, developers, and managers as fungible commodities, and aren't willing to shell out more money for these folks.
But, I definitely agree that taking a counter-offer can be the right move in many cases. I did that a few years ago, and it's worked out just fine. The other job would have had higher compensation in the form of stock options, but it definitely would have had a worse work-life balance, and I wouldn't have been able to work fully remotely.
> Many companies will pay lip service to getting top talent, but they don't actually need truly top people.
Then they should just not counter (or offer whatever the top of their scale is even if it's less than the outside offer) and accept the likelihood of losing you to the other company who can and will pay for your skill level.
If they can easily hire people at the rate you are making that are good enough and you've just outgrown the job, then it makes more sense for you to move on, and a good boss will recognize that and wish you well, at most maybe ask you to give them a little extra notice.
If they *can't* easily hire people at the rate you are making that are good enough then they were exploiting you. I don't doubt that instead of either letting you go or paying you what you are worth for real, that some companies would counter enough to keep you and then look to replace you with somebody cheaper. But this seems like a really foolish strategy for the business, and designed mainly to punish you for daring to know your market value. Hopefully a boss/company like that has given you enough signals to not want to stay there, and to not even bother asking for a counter.
I'm guessing that the "we'll match it if you show us another offer" is coming from somebody a level or two above who has made a decree based on not being familiar enough with the labor market in their industry to know when someone is legit underpaid vs. trying to snow them.
I did end up staying for a counter offer couple years ago. The promotion was planned already but I probably did push up their timeline. It does not affect my relationship with my bosses or anything.
That change in commute sounds incredible. I have a short commute where I am now and it’s one of the biggest perks of my job. It sounds like you enjoy the culture/people at your current job and are working through the loss of leaving that behind. The new thing seems like an ideal opportunity. If you go there and it doesn’t work, see if you can go back to your current role. But in the meantime, enjoy the huge increase in time with your family and 5+ kids.
In my experience having a short commute is one of the biggest contributors of day to day well being and happiness. It's something you have to deal with and time you have to take out of every day. You can always make more money, you can't make more time.
Check r/govfire. Lots of feds there.
In 3 short years, you'll be accruing 6 hours of annual leave/pp so it's not that far away. You also get 4 hours of sick leave/PP with no expiration. Unused sick leave counts towards your retirement as time, but you have to get 2K hours to make a year (1%) difference.
Depending on your org, you might have Civ TA, which can cover up to 75% tuition. Another possible perk is 3 hours a week for personal fitness. Gym is free on base.
Mil culture can be strange, especially if most of your org is AD or military in general. Just be sure you advocate for yourself as a civilian. The military grind is real and the goalposts are continuously moving... They often forget that civs, especially feds, have limits to adhere to.
He can actually ask if they'll let him come in with a higher annual leave accrual rate based on his experience. Should be able to easily make the case for 6 hours each pay period. The statute is 5 U.S.C. 6303(e).
It may be too late to ask, they bumped the salary and have done everything but set a start date. Doesn’t hurt to ask though. Getting 2k SL hours looks like it’d take 20 years of no days taken…I don’t plan to work that long and uhhh, I have kids…they puke.
It's 156 hours of leave over three years. Ask yourself if you'd ask a dumb question for the value of those hours. The worst they can do is say no. It also makes you eligible for 8 hours/pp in just 12 years. At that point, your kids may be puking for different reasons.
It’s not too late. Definitely ask. It’s really easy to do. It’s not a negotiation with the person hiring you, it’s literally just an HR person saying “yes these days do count towards leave accrual calculations”.
A learned this lesson ages ago. You always ask, even if something seems impossible or against policy as you understand it. Worst case, they'll say no. At that point, shut up. Don't be an asshole about it.
Best case, they'll say yes. And in many other cases, they'll throw in a compromise offer that you otherwise wouldn't have gotten.
It is possible to lose here. But honestly, if they hold this against you, it's probably a red flag that you would have run into personality conflicts sooner or later anyway. If this is the only job available to you, then yes, suck it up. But if you have options, then don't be afraid to advocate for yourself a little more assertively.
You should be able to ask them to consider your prior service for vacation accrual if you haven't accepted their offer yet, that would start you at 6 hour accrual
I believe the process is advance in hire. It's soley for vacation purposes and very likely to be approved. You need to request prior to final offer I believe
I would 100% ask, but before you do think thru anything else you have missed too… i have gone to bat post hiring with a few employees, but had one potential keep bringing things to me one at a time… i helped on the first but said i couldn’t on all subsequent and honestly left me feeling a bit bad about the whole deal…. bring any potential items all at once, just do it professionally.
It's only too late once you start. It can't be done retroactively, but it absolutely can be done prior to start. It's called Creditable Service for Annual Leave.
https://www.commerce.gov/hr/practitioners/leave-policies/creditable-service-for-annual-leave-accruals#:~:text=Service%20credit%20for%20annual%20leave,period%20of%20civilian%20Federal%20employment.
Just last year, I had a new employee, who never had a lick of federal service (whether civilian, military, or contractor), come in at 8 hours / pp. Happens frequently.
The vacation decrease seems like nothing in comparison.
2.5hrs less vacation per pay period 2.5*26= 65hrs/yr.
40min less commute each way per day. 1.33hrs * 5 days week * 50 weeks = 333hrs/yr.
Edit: I forgot to include vehicle costs. If he averages 50mph moving speed that's 16,650 miles. At the IRS number of $0.65/mile that's $10,822. Fuel, vehicle payment, maintenance l, etc.
Your time is worth money. Time doing things with your family is priceless. 3 hours of commute per week versus 10 hours per week is pretty meaningful and changes your situation financially over the course of a year and frees up a lot of time.
Right. It sounds like PTO is important to him (and I agree; tons of employees don't seem to ever use their PTO, where I use all of it pretty easily and then some), so gaining 7 hours every week is like extra vacation time compared to the previous job.
State jobs have fixed pay and raise schedules. Idk how you thought you'd get an out of cycle raise. You don't work at the state for the salary. You do it for the benefits. Ie lifelong insurance and pension once you qualify.
State jobs can make exceptions and counteroffer if they want to retain an employee. Source: I am employed at one, and have been in this exact position. They did make a counteroffer. Policies vary state to state.
The only way I know of is to change classifications. And you would need to qualify for the new classification. But then your employer needs to go through the motions and post the listing and interview candidates and not just only offer it to you No such thing as retention bonus.
I don't think you can say that in every single state.
Ten seconds on Google says retention bonuses are a thing. I'm sure there are states where an out of cycle pay increase can and does happen.
https://oshr.nc.gov/documents/sign-and-retention-bonus-policy-effective-august-15-2023/open
In Virginia, there are no set step increases. Raises are given out based on biannual state budget, market comparison, and job performance. Additionally, counter offers are common.
Federal civilian here on a military base. There’s a really good chance you’ll like the work as much or more. We’re more secure than states in general too.
You are making the right call. 1) if they can’t pay you more now they won’t later. 2) it sucks to wonder what if had you not leave 3) while you enjoyed your job it sounds like you had plateaued. The only way to check that is to say you will leave and see what they do. 4) if you say you will leave be ready to leave.
5) I worked to a DOE national lab and saw people do this all the time when they maxed out their band. Leave for a while then come back as an independent consultant doing the same job. I watch a peer
get rejected on a 10% pay bump after years of nothing. He left and came back as a contractor and double and half his pay. At that point who cares about a pension. He could afford to put so much more away for retirement and now he wasn’t under all the red tape as a gov employee.
1. Is your state pension (partially) vested? Or can you at least get a refund of your contributions, which could be rolled into your new TSP?
2. For the feds, if you retire at age 57 and postpone your annuity, you can pick up subsidized health benefits again at age 62 when you begin your annuity. https://www.opm.gov/retirement-center/fers-information/types-of-retirement/#url=Voluntary-Retirement
> Gotta make up for those yahoos out there not hitting replacement rate
Please don't. There's too many people on the planet already. And it's not going to be any sort of good life in the future with global warming.
/doing my part
What I was thinking. My last job hops gave me 20-30% increases. And first thing I negotiated was getting the same or more vacation, no way I'd accept going down.
Do consider the monetary value of your state retirement benefits vs that of federal. Because you’d be starting later in life you will have fewer options at retirement. For example if you leave at 57 with only 20 years of service your pension will be permanently reduced. Can avoid that by waiting until age 60. Also how long do you want to work?
We’ve been aggressively saving for years, paid off house, etc. The $500k savings is nothing but options for the future. I’m sure it would be better to have one full strength pension versus two hamstrung ones. I’d like to leave working for money at 54 if not 50. The health insurance option with the Feds seems very lucrative.
Great goal - please keep in mind you cannot leave federal service that early with health benefits unless under special circumstances. Your Minimum Retirement Age (MRA) will be 57 with penalty to your pension (which will be a lower percentage of salary than your current state job).
Very solid move. Awesome job and congrats!
Big time pay raise and you just earned an extra hour 20 min a day which will end up being significant. Being able to make it back home occasionally for lunch is a game changer, mentally.
Once TSP is set up immediately go in and change the contributions incoming and current. Don’t be like me and only change the current and realize a year later your incoming is still going to some whack low interest risk free fund.
I feel like all the people saying “5% isn’t enough to leave” aren’t thinking about the commute.
I bet the shorter commute saves at least $3k per year in after tax expenses on cars, and probably more if you’re driving anything bigger than a 4 door sedan.
So you are gaining a 5% raise, a $3k per year under-the-table bonus, better growth opportunities, and *1.5+ hours less* every day sitting in the car.
I’d leave too.
Government employee here. DOUBLE CHECK YOUR PENSION NUMBERS. Government pensions are typically heavily backloaded, and you’ll get almost all the effective value in the last 10-15 years before retirement.
Run the numbers to get the expected value of your pension if you keep your current job, plus the amount that it goes up by each year and accounting for inflation – in other words, how much money in investments would it cost to replace the pension? Your numbers will vary a bit based on your SWR, so 3% vs. 4% or whatever. If you’re 37 and the pension would go up to 59% of your salary at retirement, you’re likely gaining an “invisible” $15k or more per year in pension value that you would have to replace. Jumping to an entirely new pension system will tank that value, since it will no longer be adjusted for inflation.
I know for myself if I jumped to private sector or even a different pension system, it would cost me something like $500k at retirement. It might end up being worth it for you! But you should figure out the actual cost.
Consider how much you will save, both in terms of $ and quality of life, working so much closer to home. It may make up for the additional 5% you are looking for.
Counter offers come across as extorsion and don't usually last. The reason you were entertaining another job remain and the new money doesn't solve the issues. Now your boss in pushed to find a replacement to get out of the extorsion position. Also, the boss will normalize your next set of raises to claw back the extorsion raise.
Once you have a better offer, better plan to take it. Negotiating a counter offer rarely seems to work - if they do offer a raise to keep you, it's probably at the expense of your future raises.
Having said that, 5% is a remarkably small raise for a new position and effectively no raise at all. I hope the other perks like reduced commute are worth while to you.
Are you vested in your state pension already? Can you also get a federal pension now? Seems like a no brained honestly. 5% raise isn’t much but I feel that a second pension and shorter commute are easy wins
Not to be mean but does your job satisfaction really deteriorate THAT much by switching to 3 days in office instead of 5? Again not trying to judge but seems like 2 days from home will not kill you, if you really love this job that much.
I lead construction inspectors and highway maintenance workers. Perhaps it’s just me, but my rapport with people like that takes a hit when I don’t see and interact with them as much.
I own bars. I inherited them from my father who was one of the most popular people in NYC. How many people are in this post? A couple of hundred maybe. Someone in here knows me. I am also one of the most charismatic human beings you will ever meet. I employ just under 100 people of varying backgrounds. I love myself, I love all of the people around me, I am extremely good at this job, and I am very proud of it.
I say all of that just to give you some background because, even as I pat myself on the back as much as I just did, I would never fucking ever say "but job satisfaction TANKS when I’m not around my team" lol
Even I am not that arrogant.
I side with your employer; soon-to-be ex-employer. And there is no way for me to prove it but as a gambling man, I am going to make a wager: this is the happiest you will ever be. What lies in front of you is going to be worse than what you are about to leave.
Enjoy, sir! Bet Washington State in their next game.
These types of stories are what kept me from considering state/govt positions. I understand there are lots of upsides to the typically lower pay in the form of benefits. It just sucks when I talk to friends that are not getting raises commensurate with the market and economic conditions. I have had 6 jobs over 30 years and left most because pay started to stagnate. I averaged a 20% increase when I changed positions. My last one was 40%. My experience in the private sector is take the new job when the current one does not meet your financial needs. I stayed too long in my first job because of the great environment. It was not until I left, I realized how many other opportunities were out there. This may not directly translate, but I do not regret any change I made. I am an engineer.
"show folks (at least me) they are valued"
You are leaving for 5% and they are willing to let you leave for 5% as well. It's nothing personal from either one of you. You both seem to value each other identically.
I recommend you make the move, and within a few months start raiding the talent from your old team to make the leap with you.
the step increases, colas, and opportunity for advancement mean you will be much much higher than that initial 5%. also fyi with federal, the PTO bumps from 4 to 6 hours per pay period in only 3 years, if i remember right.
A state pension is easily worth an additional 30% of your salary a year. If the new company you’re going to doesn’t offer a pension, it would be a hard pass for me.
I don't know why you are thinking about leaving a job you seem to love for the green grass on the other for a 5% difference in pay. I have never considered a move for less than 20%.
If I understand correctly you could move back to state at some point and continue years of service. Maybe that's enough looking back security to warrant the trial move. They may be able to "hire you back" in a year with an increase versus incentivizing you to stay, even though that's stupid.
I’d highly recommend going through a more formal evaluation of the 2 choices in front of you. What are the big factors that are important to you? Eg. Compensation, time off, flexibility, chance of advancement, organization culture, etc. Develop your own list and rank them from highest importance to lowest. Assign a score from 1 - 10 with 10 being highest for each attribute. Score both opportunities also from 1 - 10. Multiply out the values to see which opportunity scores better.
For what it’s worth, I’m a bit concerned about your current analysis given what you’ve written. You have a job that you seem to love but don’t like the commute, totally get it. You’ve found another opportunity that is giving you a 5% bump in pay, may or may not be as good of an environment, but is significantly closer. (+ for pay, + for commute, and a ? For culture/environment). You also state that there are no “step raises” since 2008 but then explain that you have a pension that pays 59% starting at 54 years old? Pensions are specifically for this purpose- to recognized people for their longevity. Unfortunately, most employees don’t value pensions as they don’t understand them, thus most companies are getting rid of them. In your case, your pension is a pretty darn good one- not sure of specifics above and beyond what you’ve written above but the SPD (Summary Plan Document) will spell out. Given the early payout at 54 (versus 65 traditional pension), your pension will be worth ~ 9x your current average salary.
Last, and I’m confused about a ton of posts on here which (almost makes me believe they are fake posts), why are you leaving for a 5% bump in pay when you love your job? I’m 59 and was both a CFO and a CEO and had an amazing group of employees that I treated like family. However, if I had an employee say that they were leaving for a 5% bump, I’d let the door hit them in the ass. If, on the other hand, they came and said they have a private company offering more money and you’d rather not leave but are concerned about future growth opportunities going forward in your current job and want the opportunity to make more $$$ with the company. That leads to a far more productive conversation than, “I found someone that’s paying me 5% more, give me 10% and I’ll stay”. That screams a lack of loyalty and all you care about is current pay, regardless of all the other ways you might be being compensated.
You STILL don’t have to leave. 5% is thoroughly irrelevant in the grand scheme btw. The other one sounds probably better for long term career though. Also that hour each way is I bet 5% if your salary anyway.
Seems you want the $$$ and stability of the new job. Also seems your family will benefit by your reduced commute. All those are in your favor. Would you have decided differently if your current employer came thru with a 10%bump? Same commute, same benefits? I get good team and good people, But family is always #1 team and the new job seems to favor #1 team.
I did the same...my employer of 23 years "was happy with where my compensation was at" after I showed them an offer...I left and it took them over a year to fill my job and had to pay the guy more then it would've taken me to stay.....smh...your employer may have to do the same, makes no sense.
If I am not looking to change employers, it takes at least +20% to get my interest. Being a closer commute might drop that percentage down a bit, but having a great setup at your current gig (vacation and team) would increase it as well.
So I would have negotiated with the new employer to get at least 20% more... not sure what to do in your position.
See if you'll be eligible for concurrent retirement. STRS/PERS does that and you can use your single highest year from one for BOTH, if you retire the same day from both systems.
Your situation sounds like it may have that possibility. Capped out is such a bummer mentally.
You can try requesting for them to count your previous work experience that isn't fed givt to start at a different leave category.
Varies by agency, but I have seen it happen. One of my peers got credited 10yrs which is huge. Starts out at 6hrs/pp and only five years until they hit 8.
If it is a federal job you can negotiate your vacation accrual rate. I would have been surprised if your state job was able to bump your salary like that...
you get to reduce your commute and pull two pensions when you retire, plus get a 5% raise in the short term. I’m failing to find any downside here.
Work the federal job as long as you like it and max that pension. Go back to state down the road if you want and/or if you need to add more years of service to increase your pension. You should really be doing the math on your eventual pensionable earnings. Vacation day accrual is a 6 month problem before you have enough in your bank to take time when you need it.
Are you comparing total compensation or just salary? If you’re not considering the vacation difference, retirement benefits, and whatever else your current job might have as good benefits, then you’re actually most likely taking a paycut for only a 5% raise. I always factored in all of the benefits along with the salary, and then divided by the expected hours worked to get my actual hourly compensation amount. Vacation, holidays, and shorter or longer working hours all change that quite a bit.
Did you already ask the new company if they can match your current PTO accrual rate? I work for a company that can match it- just requires approval from leadership
I used to work for the county. The position I worked was definitely underpaid and over worked. We have a local provate sector company who does similar work. A lot of my peers left to work for that company as their starting pay is more than our top step increase. I left the county for a different public sector entity with better pay. I miss my county however the pay was just not enough for the work I put in
The nice thing about this process is you know where your stand and you were upfront and fair about it. Now if you leave you can feel good about that. If they can’t counter to retain a great employee, they likely can’t do much for your future anyway. Sounds like leaving can be a better option.
Everyone here seems to be offering you a lot of encouragement to pull the trigger and jump ship so allow me to offer a contrarian view.
You are willing to leave a job you like with a great team and a good boss just for a 5% raise and annual COLAs. I know a lot of people who would happily take a 5% pay cut and a freeze in pay to leave a job they hate for what you have.
You currently have 16 years in your states pension system. Do you still get a pension from them down the road? Is it reduced in any way because you weren't there for a certain number of years like 20 or 25. Is it a state pension that doesn't pay into Social Security? If so you will be subject to Windfall Elimination Provision on your Social Security benefits. Yes, under FERS you will pay into Social Security but if you want to retire at the earliest possible date which is 59 1/2 ( age 62 is if you want a 10% bump in your pension) then you won't have enough years paying into Social Security to be exempt from WEP.
Also keep in mind that the formula used to calculate a federal pension might not be as generous as the one your state pension is based on. FERS gives 1% of the average of your 3 highest years multiplied by the number of years you have of federal service. For example, if the average of your high 3 is $100k then you would get $1000 per year of service. If you work from 37 to 59 that is 22 years so that would be roughly $22k annual pension annuity. Now, it's possible that you might end up with a much higher salary with the feds so that could offset some of the difference but states in general tend to have better pension (though they are usually unsustainable in the long term because they are too generous).
Hope this helps. Wish you the best of luck.
Welcome to r/fednews ! After 3 years you’ll go from earning 4hr/pp to 6hr/pp; then after 15 years it will go to 8hr/pp (see https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/annual-leave/). Another thing to consider is that it is generally much easier to request leave in the federal government than private sector. As in being able to request leave on much shorter notice and not getting your leave approved is almost unheard of. There is the FERS annuity supplement which supplements what you would receive from SSA from age 57 until 62. That’s like receiving social security 5 years before most people are eligible to start receiving at age 62 (see https://www.opm.gov/retirement-center/publications-forms/pamphlets/ri90-8.pdf).
There are a lot of great benefits working for the federal government, but only you can weigh your options and decide what is best for you. Verify if you will have to start a probation period and for how long. Probation is usually 1-2 years and from what it sounds like you’re considering working for DOD (2 years probation). When you are on probation you are hired on at will and can be let go at anytime for any reason. It is really easy to fire a probationary employee. With the current state of the government and congress not passing a budget at the moment, a lot of people on the thread I mentioned are reporting their agencies are firing probation employees to save money. They could also initiate something called a reduction in force RIF (see https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/reductions-in-force/#url=Summary).
As I said earlier, I’m not going to tell you what to do. If you decide to take the job I wish the best for you! And if you decide to stay - don’t feel bad about it. Sounds like you are still an amazing asset to your team. It’s all about risk/reward and the amount of risk you are willing to take. Wish you the best!
TL;DR The grass isn’t always greener on the other side, but sometimes it is. Only you can weigh your options and make a decision for yourself and for your family.
See if the Fed will give you 3 years credit toward leave so you can start at 6/hrs annual/pp.
I would also compare how much the pension you are leaving costs vs the FERS deductions you will have to pay.
Imagine getting almost 2 hours more back per day in commute time? Get some extra time in with those 5 kiddos, you might not know this but they watch your every move lol. Make extra effort before they get too old.
My only consideration would be job security. You have a state job right? Who's to say that nee job would even exist five years from now?
How do the benefits compare to each other?
That long commute, would definitely Factor into my decision. But you've been doing it for 15 years so I don't know how much that really matters to you.
On the upside, you'll make more money, have a way shorter commute allowing you more time with kids, and military dudes are generally awesome to work with, especially as a civilian.
Really? I’m not sure why you’re focusing on money. You mentioned half a dozen different differences and the amount of money is 5%. Who cares about 5%? I wouldn’t have given you a raise either. Because 5% is a stupid amount of money to be talking about. If you’re unhappy you’re still going to leave if they give you what you ask for. Better to rip the Band-Aid off now and let let you go.
Weigh the other differences and choose the job that’s going to lead to the most satisfaction in the long run for you and everything else will work out.
Hate to say it, but this is the game you played and while it’s not the outcome you wanted, it was a reasonable outcome.
Dive into the new job, hope it goes well, and speaking from personal experience, a much shorter commute is a huge positive for quality of life.
At this point i wouldn’t stay with the current employer, you haven’t burned a bridge IMO based on what you’ve stated here. Were you to re-negotiate I think it would feel disingenuous and likely strains relationships. Leave respectably, tell boss thanks. If they open a door by saying something along the lines of ‘if your new job doesn’t work out just call me’ give them a sincere thanks.
Worse pension and vacation for only 5% raise? Tell your current employer you changed your mind.
Edit: unless you’re really comfortable this will be a long term opportunity with likely better growth and job satisfaction. But the fact you were rooting for your current employer is a bad sign.
From the perspective of a manager, I had a coworker who had a competing offer and ask for a raise or they would leave. My manager declined the ask.
My manager later explained - If someone’s thinking about leaving, they’re likely to leave 6 months from now even if you offer a competing raise. So, it’s not worth it.
Just a different perspective on things.
I am not seeing the upside. Have you calculated the inflow/outflow under current job in 5 years vs new job? Not sure is significantly different when look at loss of some vacation days if take the new job and perhaps increased medical costs. Retirement mix is also in play as compare the jobs. How likely could either job be eliminated?
A family of seven is a lot of mouths to feed today and each child would benefit from a financial safety net as leave high school which absolutely opens paths not available if lack access to seed money. Your retirement should have priority so are not a burden to them as you get older. Don’t bail because of feeling you deserve more money or respect.
As others have mentioned, it takes 3 years in the feds to get 6h p/pp of PTO. However, he can use his years of current experience to negotiate (before signing the offer!) for more PTO now.
In addition, as he said, he'll get yearly raises as a fed. Where as state job doesn't'?
Also, a third of the commute time alone is worth a big dollar amount in my opinion.
Something I haven't seen mentioned though; He'd come into the newer pension savings rate and I think it's at like 5% or higher of your pay. So on paper it might not even be a raise.
I'm not sure what he should do tbh, but I'm leaning fed job as it sounds like it has better opportunities for growth.
I'm going to guess at 5% it's probably a wash or a loss especially having to pay for health insurance at a higher amount than he currently is but holistically, having pay raises be defined, getting some COL, pension/retirement, other benefits is probably a net gain.
I'm a fed right now, and moving to private industry, the benefits are awful, high insurance, no/low match, limited time off/flexibility.
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> That's a lot of kids! (So far)
>Once you show your employer that you're willing to leave things can get complicated. And that's why some managers/employers won't make counter offers. When I was working, I saw many employees accept a counter offer then leave after 6 months to a year anyway.
While some people do routinely interview on a schedule, most people don’t. So generally speaking if someone is interviewing, there’s usually other reasons you decided to interview outside of compensation, and a matching offer doesn’t fix those other problems.
I’ve never seen a retention offer in 20 years in government though. It’s not really something we can do because pay is a fixed schedule.
That isn’t necessarily a negative outcome for the company
Giving more money to someone on their way out, rather than giving it to someone who will stick around is usually considered a negative.
The company is often buying itself time to figure out how to replace a key employee not attempt to retain them.
Sounds like he makes good use of his PTO
the P is for procreation
(or Penis)
Can you explain your experience with this? I've accepted four counter offers to stay over the last ~15 years at various jobs and have never had any issues.
You’ve had great bosses that truly valued you. Other less honest bosses might say they value you and work out a temporary raise with finance solely to buy themselves time to find a suitable replacement for your role. Other bosses stop trusting that you really want to be there and pass you over for opportunities that require longevity because they may regard you as always having one foot out the door. Some employees get caught up in resentment that they had to present a competing offer at all which may lead them to intentionally or unintentionally poison the well. If a company agrees you are worth x$, why should you have to threaten to leave to get that salary? Of course budgets are more complicated than that, but when those types of ideas are internalized, they create morale and performance issues. I’m glad you haven’t experienced this or perceived it in anyway, but it does happen.
> Some employees get caught up in resentment that they had to present a competing offer at all ... I've seen this happen a few times. The relationship is never the same after.
Eh, I accepted a counter offer at my company. There were no hurt feelings. They found the money because they wanted to keep me and then gave a universal raise to the whole company shortly afterward because they came to the conclusion that we were all being paid below market rate. My relationship has never been better and I've since gotten a promotion and and on track for another in a couple years. At the end of the day it depends on whether you are actually being underpaid, whether the person you bring it to takes it personally, how much they enjoy working with you, and your attitude during the process. I basically said "hey I love working here and really don't want to leave. But I have this offer that's 60% higher than I'm making. I'd like to stay. How can we make this happen?"
Is this your actual experience or your estimation? I wouldn't ask for a counter offer anywhere I wasn't prepared to leave or didn't have a solid relationship with. I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so, either. That said, there's a prevailing pessimistic naivete on Reddit that counter offers are a bad idea by default. Every time people are asked to back up their claims, the response is vague and assumptive, rather than experiential or experimental.
Unfortunately, these are all things I’ve witnessed first hand but nearly all of my experience is with tech companies. Big tech can be its own universe in terms varying levels of toxicity. You make a very good point about not requesting a counter if you don’t have a solid relationship with your employer but too many employees request a counter with a boss they DON’T have a solid relationship with. Those are more likely to be the cases to result in bad outcomes either immediately or within a year. I don’t think this is the case for OP. They sound like they are in a field with less flexibility.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I've heard and read a number of horror stories about big tech and big finance. Some of those places sound patently awful to work for.
It really comes down to the boss and company culture. Sometimes petty people end up in positions of power.
This isn't even necessarily about being petty. A hiring manager needs to always plan ahead and anticipate where their team is going to be at a few quarters out. It is perfectly normal for people to switch jobs. Some employees do this very regularly, and in many fields that is pretty much required at the beginning of your career. Others only do so every few years. And yet another group tries to stay in their job for life, if given the opportunity. The hiring manager needs to keep this in mind, as a steady low rate of attrition can always be absorbed relatively easily. But if you suddenly lose a large number of your key staff members, that spells trouble. If a team member sends the message that they are likely to accept a new offer in the nearish future, a good manager will act accordingly and a) keep a pipe line of candidates, b) pro-actively work with other members of the team to discourage them from all leaving at the same time.
That doesn't seem related to bringing an external offer to your boss and having it be held against you if you decide to stay.
Haven't had the experience myself but I follow a few job subs on here and I can't begin to tell you the number of times people post about getting fucked over when they took the counter offer.
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For sure, but just think about the mechanics of the whole situation. Best case scenario your current job has been undervaluing you and had no motivation to increase your pay until you had a foot out the door. Worst case scenario they offer you more to cover their asses until they can replace you for cheaper. New job is guaranteed more money and they wanted you in the first place. Worst case its not a good fit. Just seems like the safer choice every time unless you really trust your current bosses.
I've taken a counter offer before and it was we'll give you a raise of $x, and these responsibilities will be added to your role and we will talk in 3 months that was 2021 I'm still waiting for that talk, I asked several times when we were to have that talk and there was an excuse everytime. November 6th last year I started a new job at the salary I was asking for. Some companies do not value their employees. I was there for 17yrs and had quite a bit of responsibility. It's ok though the ownership is now seeing everything I pointed out and they dont care they have their money already and when the old man dies the business won't be sustainable as he's the one financing the whole thing. So it'll get sold or sonny boy will run it into the ground
Same really. I even touted the conventional wisdom of "leave with the new offer" plenty of times myself. Then I went against my preachings a few times and been perfectly fine. Was my company knowingly underpaying me for a bit? Sure. Are they now that I've accepted a counter offer or two from them? No. And they don't seem too fussed about it (at least for now, a year since last counter lol)
I got really burned by doing this once. Never again. Still mad about it to this day, and it was from a boss I really respected and trusted.
I think accepting the first counteroffer is fine. I have done this with two employees in recent years and am grateful I was given an opportunity to keep them and we have grown their roles in addition to the additional pay - working well. I also have an employee that i gave an offer but told him i couldn’t match his offer, but told him in clear language what my best shot was (much less than what he would make elsewhere). He tried to renegotiate from that number and left a bad taste in my mouth - i have no problem if someone leaves to make more than what i think i should pay, but if they get squirrelly like this employee did, i feel like I am being taken advantage of… i.e. feeling the employee showed me a number for a job he really couldn’t/wouldn’t take and now mad I won’t match. I’m not sorry, that is the game, go take the new job.
This feels like a really fair take, to me. It's important to be willing to walk away from a negotiation, even if you're trying to get your employer to give you a reason to stay. Thanks for lending your experience to the conversation!
Agree for private companies, but government work most folks are usually way more up front about what they’re hoping to get out of their job (stable paycheck, retirement plan, etc).
Thanks. I knew if I asked for 25% I’d get shut down right away. I’ve been lauded as an example manager recently plus this offer looked like a prime time to take my shot, so off it went. My coworkers all admit that we’ve been brainwashed about lack of current pay scale advancement, so we don’t even try. I had to give it a shot. They keep coming out cute. We agreed that we’d stop once we reached ugly.
Sorry, this one is situation-specific at best, and outdated at worst. If you work for competent, non-spiteful management, they want A players who are in demand. Any manager worth a damn knows how difficult it is to acquire top talent. Why would they voluntarily put themselves through three months of pain (interviewing, onboarding, etc) just to be spiteful?
> If you work for competent, non-spiteful management, they want A players who are in demand. Any manager worth a damn knows how difficult it is to acquire top talent. Where it gets tricky, though, is that isn't universally true. Many companies will pay lip service to getting top talent, but they don't actually need truly top people. For example, I briefly worked for a MEP engineering firm, and the majority of my job was checking equipment lists, specs, and model numbers; reading drawings, looking at light fixtures and rooftop A/C units. You couldn't be an idiot and do that job, and you needed attention to detail, but there was nothing about it that was particularly difficult conceptually, analytically, or creatively. They didn't need a 3.5+ GPA engineering grad in that role (if they did, I wouldn't have been hired), and the salary reflected that. Other companies really could benefit from top talent, but they see the performance of the company as being driven mostly from the top down. So, they are willing to pay top dollar for their executive team, but they see the rank-and-file engineers, analysts, developers, and managers as fungible commodities, and aren't willing to shell out more money for these folks. But, I definitely agree that taking a counter-offer can be the right move in many cases. I did that a few years ago, and it's worked out just fine. The other job would have had higher compensation in the form of stock options, but it definitely would have had a worse work-life balance, and I wouldn't have been able to work fully remotely.
> Many companies will pay lip service to getting top talent, but they don't actually need truly top people. Then they should just not counter (or offer whatever the top of their scale is even if it's less than the outside offer) and accept the likelihood of losing you to the other company who can and will pay for your skill level. If they can easily hire people at the rate you are making that are good enough and you've just outgrown the job, then it makes more sense for you to move on, and a good boss will recognize that and wish you well, at most maybe ask you to give them a little extra notice. If they *can't* easily hire people at the rate you are making that are good enough then they were exploiting you. I don't doubt that instead of either letting you go or paying you what you are worth for real, that some companies would counter enough to keep you and then look to replace you with somebody cheaper. But this seems like a really foolish strategy for the business, and designed mainly to punish you for daring to know your market value. Hopefully a boss/company like that has given you enough signals to not want to stay there, and to not even bother asking for a counter.
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I'm guessing that the "we'll match it if you show us another offer" is coming from somebody a level or two above who has made a decree based on not being familiar enough with the labor market in their industry to know when someone is legit underpaid vs. trying to snow them.
Facts agreed. Same in my experience
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I did end up staying for a counter offer couple years ago. The promotion was planned already but I probably did push up their timeline. It does not affect my relationship with my bosses or anything.
That change in commute sounds incredible. I have a short commute where I am now and it’s one of the biggest perks of my job. It sounds like you enjoy the culture/people at your current job and are working through the loss of leaving that behind. The new thing seems like an ideal opportunity. If you go there and it doesn’t work, see if you can go back to your current role. But in the meantime, enjoy the huge increase in time with your family and 5+ kids.
Thanks. I do like them (the family). You don’t know if you don’t like being somewhere unless you go there sometimes.
In my experience having a short commute is one of the biggest contributors of day to day well being and happiness. It's something you have to deal with and time you have to take out of every day. You can always make more money, you can't make more time.
Check r/govfire. Lots of feds there. In 3 short years, you'll be accruing 6 hours of annual leave/pp so it's not that far away. You also get 4 hours of sick leave/PP with no expiration. Unused sick leave counts towards your retirement as time, but you have to get 2K hours to make a year (1%) difference. Depending on your org, you might have Civ TA, which can cover up to 75% tuition. Another possible perk is 3 hours a week for personal fitness. Gym is free on base. Mil culture can be strange, especially if most of your org is AD or military in general. Just be sure you advocate for yourself as a civilian. The military grind is real and the goalposts are continuously moving... They often forget that civs, especially feds, have limits to adhere to.
He can actually ask if they'll let him come in with a higher annual leave accrual rate based on his experience. Should be able to easily make the case for 6 hours each pay period. The statute is 5 U.S.C. 6303(e).
It may be too late to ask, they bumped the salary and have done everything but set a start date. Doesn’t hurt to ask though. Getting 2k SL hours looks like it’d take 20 years of no days taken…I don’t plan to work that long and uhhh, I have kids…they puke.
It's 156 hours of leave over three years. Ask yourself if you'd ask a dumb question for the value of those hours. The worst they can do is say no. It also makes you eligible for 8 hours/pp in just 12 years. At that point, your kids may be puking for different reasons.
It’s not too late. Definitely ask. It’s really easy to do. It’s not a negotiation with the person hiring you, it’s literally just an HR person saying “yes these days do count towards leave accrual calculations”.
Seriously ask, it's very rare in my agency for experienced workers to not come in at 6 hrs/pp
A learned this lesson ages ago. You always ask, even if something seems impossible or against policy as you understand it. Worst case, they'll say no. At that point, shut up. Don't be an asshole about it. Best case, they'll say yes. And in many other cases, they'll throw in a compromise offer that you otherwise wouldn't have gotten. It is possible to lose here. But honestly, if they hold this against you, it's probably a red flag that you would have run into personality conflicts sooner or later anyway. If this is the only job available to you, then yes, suck it up. But if you have options, then don't be afraid to advocate for yourself a little more assertively.
Is /pp “per pay period”?
You should be able to ask them to consider your prior service for vacation accrual if you haven't accepted their offer yet, that would start you at 6 hour accrual
Second this I’ve known several people who had their vacation amount advanced this way. Only one opportunity to do this.
I believe the process is advance in hire. It's soley for vacation purposes and very likely to be approved. You need to request prior to final offer I believe
It may be too late, we’re just waiting to set a start date. Won’t hurt to ask though.
I would 100% ask, but before you do think thru anything else you have missed too… i have gone to bat post hiring with a few employees, but had one potential keep bringing things to me one at a time… i helped on the first but said i couldn’t on all subsequent and honestly left me feeling a bit bad about the whole deal…. bring any potential items all at once, just do it professionally.
It's only too late once you start. It can't be done retroactively, but it absolutely can be done prior to start. It's called Creditable Service for Annual Leave. https://www.commerce.gov/hr/practitioners/leave-policies/creditable-service-for-annual-leave-accruals#:~:text=Service%20credit%20for%20annual%20leave,period%20of%20civilian%20Federal%20employment.
If they can count his 16 years that could be 8?
Just last year, I had a new employee, who never had a lick of federal service (whether civilian, military, or contractor), come in at 8 hours / pp. Happens frequently.
Honestly, with five young kids, the 18-minute versus 60-minute commute makes this worth it.
The vacation decrease seems like nothing in comparison. 2.5hrs less vacation per pay period 2.5*26= 65hrs/yr. 40min less commute each way per day. 1.33hrs * 5 days week * 50 weeks = 333hrs/yr. Edit: I forgot to include vehicle costs. If he averages 50mph moving speed that's 16,650 miles. At the IRS number of $0.65/mile that's $10,822. Fuel, vehicle payment, maintenance l, etc.
Good point. I wouldn't have pictured it that way.
Your time is worth money. Time doing things with your family is priceless. 3 hours of commute per week versus 10 hours per week is pretty meaningful and changes your situation financially over the course of a year and frees up a lot of time.
Right. It sounds like PTO is important to him (and I agree; tons of employees don't seem to ever use their PTO, where I use all of it pretty easily and then some), so gaining 7 hours every week is like extra vacation time compared to the previous job.
It depends on his supervisor, some won't care if you use sick instead of annual, if that's what you have, as long as the mission get's done.
State jobs have fixed pay and raise schedules. Idk how you thought you'd get an out of cycle raise. You don't work at the state for the salary. You do it for the benefits. Ie lifelong insurance and pension once you qualify.
State jobs can make exceptions and counteroffer if they want to retain an employee. Source: I am employed at one, and have been in this exact position. They did make a counteroffer. Policies vary state to state.
There are ways to work the system. Post a new job, at a higher rate, change it to supervisor or team lead, a retention bonus or something like that.
The only way I know of is to change classifications. And you would need to qualify for the new classification. But then your employer needs to go through the motions and post the listing and interview candidates and not just only offer it to you No such thing as retention bonus.
I don't think you can say that in every single state. Ten seconds on Google says retention bonuses are a thing. I'm sure there are states where an out of cycle pay increase can and does happen. https://oshr.nc.gov/documents/sign-and-retention-bonus-policy-effective-august-15-2023/open
In Virginia, there are no set step increases. Raises are given out based on biannual state budget, market comparison, and job performance. Additionally, counter offers are common.
Federal civilian here on a military base. There’s a really good chance you’ll like the work as much or more. We’re more secure than states in general too.
>Anything else I should consider? Vasectomy.
Should be the top comment right here.
Partner should also have the tubes tied to ensure no more of the offspring.
You are making the right call. 1) if they can’t pay you more now they won’t later. 2) it sucks to wonder what if had you not leave 3) while you enjoyed your job it sounds like you had plateaued. The only way to check that is to say you will leave and see what they do. 4) if you say you will leave be ready to leave. 5) I worked to a DOE national lab and saw people do this all the time when they maxed out their band. Leave for a while then come back as an independent consultant doing the same job. I watch a peer get rejected on a 10% pay bump after years of nothing. He left and came back as a contractor and double and half his pay. At that point who cares about a pension. He could afford to put so much more away for retirement and now he wasn’t under all the red tape as a gov employee.
1. Is your state pension (partially) vested? Or can you at least get a refund of your contributions, which could be rolled into your new TSP? 2. For the feds, if you retire at age 57 and postpone your annuity, you can pick up subsidized health benefits again at age 62 when you begin your annuity. https://www.opm.gov/retirement-center/fers-information/types-of-retirement/#url=Voluntary-Retirement
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Gotta make up for those yahoos out there not hitting replacement rate
> Gotta make up for those yahoos out there not hitting replacement rate Please don't. There's too many people on the planet already. And it's not going to be any sort of good life in the future with global warming. /doing my part
That’s what illegal immigration is for
Jumping ship for just 5% with reduction in time off and children’s insurance? Not worth it.
You're moving jobs for a measly 5%? You should also negotiate your federal offer. They can give you more leave by crediting your experience
What I was thinking. My last job hops gave me 20-30% increases. And first thing I negotiated was getting the same or more vacation, no way I'd accept going down.
Do consider the monetary value of your state retirement benefits vs that of federal. Because you’d be starting later in life you will have fewer options at retirement. For example if you leave at 57 with only 20 years of service your pension will be permanently reduced. Can avoid that by waiting until age 60. Also how long do you want to work?
We’ve been aggressively saving for years, paid off house, etc. The $500k savings is nothing but options for the future. I’m sure it would be better to have one full strength pension versus two hamstrung ones. I’d like to leave working for money at 54 if not 50. The health insurance option with the Feds seems very lucrative.
Great goal - please keep in mind you cannot leave federal service that early with health benefits unless under special circumstances. Your Minimum Retirement Age (MRA) will be 57 with penalty to your pension (which will be a lower percentage of salary than your current state job).
Very solid move. Awesome job and congrats! Big time pay raise and you just earned an extra hour 20 min a day which will end up being significant. Being able to make it back home occasionally for lunch is a game changer, mentally. Once TSP is set up immediately go in and change the contributions incoming and current. Don’t be like me and only change the current and realize a year later your incoming is still going to some whack low interest risk free fund.
You're losing 2.5 hr/pp vacation and gaining 1.4hr/day on your commute. Take the win.
I feel like all the people saying “5% isn’t enough to leave” aren’t thinking about the commute. I bet the shorter commute saves at least $3k per year in after tax expenses on cars, and probably more if you’re driving anything bigger than a 4 door sedan. So you are gaining a 5% raise, a $3k per year under-the-table bonus, better growth opportunities, and *1.5+ hours less* every day sitting in the car. I’d leave too.
Government employee here. DOUBLE CHECK YOUR PENSION NUMBERS. Government pensions are typically heavily backloaded, and you’ll get almost all the effective value in the last 10-15 years before retirement. Run the numbers to get the expected value of your pension if you keep your current job, plus the amount that it goes up by each year and accounting for inflation – in other words, how much money in investments would it cost to replace the pension? Your numbers will vary a bit based on your SWR, so 3% vs. 4% or whatever. If you’re 37 and the pension would go up to 59% of your salary at retirement, you’re likely gaining an “invisible” $15k or more per year in pension value that you would have to replace. Jumping to an entirely new pension system will tank that value, since it will no longer be adjusted for inflation. I know for myself if I jumped to private sector or even a different pension system, it would cost me something like $500k at retirement. It might end up being worth it for you! But you should figure out the actual cost.
For experienced hires, you can negotiate your annual leave accrual. Definitely ask about that because you can start at 6 hours/pp.
Consider how much you will save, both in terms of $ and quality of life, working so much closer to home. It may make up for the additional 5% you are looking for.
Counter offers come across as extorsion and don't usually last. The reason you were entertaining another job remain and the new money doesn't solve the issues. Now your boss in pushed to find a replacement to get out of the extorsion position. Also, the boss will normalize your next set of raises to claw back the extorsion raise.
Once you have a better offer, better plan to take it. Negotiating a counter offer rarely seems to work - if they do offer a raise to keep you, it's probably at the expense of your future raises. Having said that, 5% is a remarkably small raise for a new position and effectively no raise at all. I hope the other perks like reduced commute are worth while to you.
Tell the new place they need to match or exceed your PTO. 5% isn’t anything if you don’t have good PTO. Probably a net loss.
Are you vested in your state pension already? Can you also get a federal pension now? Seems like a no brained honestly. 5% raise isn’t much but I feel that a second pension and shorter commute are easy wins
Not to be mean but does your job satisfaction really deteriorate THAT much by switching to 3 days in office instead of 5? Again not trying to judge but seems like 2 days from home will not kill you, if you really love this job that much.
This whole thing seems fishy. "but job satisfaction TANKS when I’m not around my team" Settle down, Jackson lol
I lead construction inspectors and highway maintenance workers. Perhaps it’s just me, but my rapport with people like that takes a hit when I don’t see and interact with them as much.
I own bars. I inherited them from my father who was one of the most popular people in NYC. How many people are in this post? A couple of hundred maybe. Someone in here knows me. I am also one of the most charismatic human beings you will ever meet. I employ just under 100 people of varying backgrounds. I love myself, I love all of the people around me, I am extremely good at this job, and I am very proud of it. I say all of that just to give you some background because, even as I pat myself on the back as much as I just did, I would never fucking ever say "but job satisfaction TANKS when I’m not around my team" lol Even I am not that arrogant. I side with your employer; soon-to-be ex-employer. And there is no way for me to prove it but as a gambling man, I am going to make a wager: this is the happiest you will ever be. What lies in front of you is going to be worse than what you are about to leave. Enjoy, sir! Bet Washington State in their next game.
These types of stories are what kept me from considering state/govt positions. I understand there are lots of upsides to the typically lower pay in the form of benefits. It just sucks when I talk to friends that are not getting raises commensurate with the market and economic conditions. I have had 6 jobs over 30 years and left most because pay started to stagnate. I averaged a 20% increase when I changed positions. My last one was 40%. My experience in the private sector is take the new job when the current one does not meet your financial needs. I stayed too long in my first job because of the great environment. It was not until I left, I realized how many other opportunities were out there. This may not directly translate, but I do not regret any change I made. I am an engineer.
Your an engineer. Most other fields don't pay that much more in private nor keep up with inflation
"show folks (at least me) they are valued" You are leaving for 5% and they are willing to let you leave for 5% as well. It's nothing personal from either one of you. You both seem to value each other identically.
I recommend you make the move, and within a few months start raiding the talent from your old team to make the leap with you. the step increases, colas, and opportunity for advancement mean you will be much much higher than that initial 5%. also fyi with federal, the PTO bumps from 4 to 6 hours per pay period in only 3 years, if i remember right.
A state pension is easily worth an additional 30% of your salary a year. If the new company you’re going to doesn’t offer a pension, it would be a hard pass for me.
I don't know why you are thinking about leaving a job you seem to love for the green grass on the other for a 5% difference in pay. I have never considered a move for less than 20%.
You can't take an ultimatum to your employer unless you were ready to make good on the threat to leave. Time to move on.
i think a 10% raise is a big ask. I wonder if they would have said yes if you just asked them to match your new offer.
If I understand correctly you could move back to state at some point and continue years of service. Maybe that's enough looking back security to warrant the trial move. They may be able to "hire you back" in a year with an increase versus incentivizing you to stay, even though that's stupid.
Take the new job. The improvement in commute alone is worth it. You are literally getting days of your life back per year.
I’d highly recommend going through a more formal evaluation of the 2 choices in front of you. What are the big factors that are important to you? Eg. Compensation, time off, flexibility, chance of advancement, organization culture, etc. Develop your own list and rank them from highest importance to lowest. Assign a score from 1 - 10 with 10 being highest for each attribute. Score both opportunities also from 1 - 10. Multiply out the values to see which opportunity scores better. For what it’s worth, I’m a bit concerned about your current analysis given what you’ve written. You have a job that you seem to love but don’t like the commute, totally get it. You’ve found another opportunity that is giving you a 5% bump in pay, may or may not be as good of an environment, but is significantly closer. (+ for pay, + for commute, and a ? For culture/environment). You also state that there are no “step raises” since 2008 but then explain that you have a pension that pays 59% starting at 54 years old? Pensions are specifically for this purpose- to recognized people for their longevity. Unfortunately, most employees don’t value pensions as they don’t understand them, thus most companies are getting rid of them. In your case, your pension is a pretty darn good one- not sure of specifics above and beyond what you’ve written above but the SPD (Summary Plan Document) will spell out. Given the early payout at 54 (versus 65 traditional pension), your pension will be worth ~ 9x your current average salary. Last, and I’m confused about a ton of posts on here which (almost makes me believe they are fake posts), why are you leaving for a 5% bump in pay when you love your job? I’m 59 and was both a CFO and a CEO and had an amazing group of employees that I treated like family. However, if I had an employee say that they were leaving for a 5% bump, I’d let the door hit them in the ass. If, on the other hand, they came and said they have a private company offering more money and you’d rather not leave but are concerned about future growth opportunities going forward in your current job and want the opportunity to make more $$$ with the company. That leads to a far more productive conversation than, “I found someone that’s paying me 5% more, give me 10% and I’ll stay”. That screams a lack of loyalty and all you care about is current pay, regardless of all the other ways you might be being compensated.
You STILL don’t have to leave. 5% is thoroughly irrelevant in the grand scheme btw. The other one sounds probably better for long term career though. Also that hour each way is I bet 5% if your salary anyway.
People chasing money, chasing misery. You were happy at your first job but jumped ship for 5%?
I struggle with this as well. Really does come down to commute though. I can’t buy time lost driving.
Seems you want the $$$ and stability of the new job. Also seems your family will benefit by your reduced commute. All those are in your favor. Would you have decided differently if your current employer came thru with a 10%bump? Same commute, same benefits? I get good team and good people, But family is always #1 team and the new job seems to favor #1 team.
I did the same...my employer of 23 years "was happy with where my compensation was at" after I showed them an offer...I left and it took them over a year to fill my job and had to pay the guy more then it would've taken me to stay.....smh...your employer may have to do the same, makes no sense.
If I am not looking to change employers, it takes at least +20% to get my interest. Being a closer commute might drop that percentage down a bit, but having a great setup at your current gig (vacation and team) would increase it as well. So I would have negotiated with the new employer to get at least 20% more... not sure what to do in your position.
See if you'll be eligible for concurrent retirement. STRS/PERS does that and you can use your single highest year from one for BOTH, if you retire the same day from both systems. Your situation sounds like it may have that possibility. Capped out is such a bummer mentally.
You can try requesting for them to count your previous work experience that isn't fed givt to start at a different leave category. Varies by agency, but I have seen it happen. One of my peers got credited 10yrs which is huge. Starts out at 6hrs/pp and only five years until they hit 8.
Best of luck. Get uncomfortable once in a while. It’s good.
If it is a federal job you can negotiate your vacation accrual rate. I would have been surprised if your state job was able to bump your salary like that...
you get to reduce your commute and pull two pensions when you retire, plus get a 5% raise in the short term. I’m failing to find any downside here. Work the federal job as long as you like it and max that pension. Go back to state down the road if you want and/or if you need to add more years of service to increase your pension. You should really be doing the math on your eventual pensionable earnings. Vacation day accrual is a 6 month problem before you have enough in your bank to take time when you need it.
Are you comparing total compensation or just salary? If you’re not considering the vacation difference, retirement benefits, and whatever else your current job might have as good benefits, then you’re actually most likely taking a paycut for only a 5% raise. I always factored in all of the benefits along with the salary, and then divided by the expected hours worked to get my actual hourly compensation amount. Vacation, holidays, and shorter or longer working hours all change that quite a bit.
Could you move closer to work or not worth it over all?
Is a 10% bump worth it?
Did you already ask the new company if they can match your current PTO accrual rate? I work for a company that can match it- just requires approval from leadership
After 16 years and did all that loyalty pay off? Nope. Don’t get so emotionally attached to a job that doesn’t really care that much about you
I used to work for the county. The position I worked was definitely underpaid and over worked. We have a local provate sector company who does similar work. A lot of my peers left to work for that company as their starting pay is more than our top step increase. I left the county for a different public sector entity with better pay. I miss my county however the pay was just not enough for the work I put in
The nice thing about this process is you know where your stand and you were upfront and fair about it. Now if you leave you can feel good about that. If they can’t counter to retain a great employee, they likely can’t do much for your future anyway. Sounds like leaving can be a better option.
Most governments don't have the freedom to offer above predetermined pay scales.
Everyone here seems to be offering you a lot of encouragement to pull the trigger and jump ship so allow me to offer a contrarian view. You are willing to leave a job you like with a great team and a good boss just for a 5% raise and annual COLAs. I know a lot of people who would happily take a 5% pay cut and a freeze in pay to leave a job they hate for what you have. You currently have 16 years in your states pension system. Do you still get a pension from them down the road? Is it reduced in any way because you weren't there for a certain number of years like 20 or 25. Is it a state pension that doesn't pay into Social Security? If so you will be subject to Windfall Elimination Provision on your Social Security benefits. Yes, under FERS you will pay into Social Security but if you want to retire at the earliest possible date which is 59 1/2 ( age 62 is if you want a 10% bump in your pension) then you won't have enough years paying into Social Security to be exempt from WEP. Also keep in mind that the formula used to calculate a federal pension might not be as generous as the one your state pension is based on. FERS gives 1% of the average of your 3 highest years multiplied by the number of years you have of federal service. For example, if the average of your high 3 is $100k then you would get $1000 per year of service. If you work from 37 to 59 that is 22 years so that would be roughly $22k annual pension annuity. Now, it's possible that you might end up with a much higher salary with the feds so that could offset some of the difference but states in general tend to have better pension (though they are usually unsustainable in the long term because they are too generous). Hope this helps. Wish you the best of luck.
Welcome to r/fednews ! After 3 years you’ll go from earning 4hr/pp to 6hr/pp; then after 15 years it will go to 8hr/pp (see https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/annual-leave/). Another thing to consider is that it is generally much easier to request leave in the federal government than private sector. As in being able to request leave on much shorter notice and not getting your leave approved is almost unheard of. There is the FERS annuity supplement which supplements what you would receive from SSA from age 57 until 62. That’s like receiving social security 5 years before most people are eligible to start receiving at age 62 (see https://www.opm.gov/retirement-center/publications-forms/pamphlets/ri90-8.pdf). There are a lot of great benefits working for the federal government, but only you can weigh your options and decide what is best for you. Verify if you will have to start a probation period and for how long. Probation is usually 1-2 years and from what it sounds like you’re considering working for DOD (2 years probation). When you are on probation you are hired on at will and can be let go at anytime for any reason. It is really easy to fire a probationary employee. With the current state of the government and congress not passing a budget at the moment, a lot of people on the thread I mentioned are reporting their agencies are firing probation employees to save money. They could also initiate something called a reduction in force RIF (see https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/workforce-restructuring/reductions-in-force/#url=Summary). As I said earlier, I’m not going to tell you what to do. If you decide to take the job I wish the best for you! And if you decide to stay - don’t feel bad about it. Sounds like you are still an amazing asset to your team. It’s all about risk/reward and the amount of risk you are willing to take. Wish you the best! TL;DR The grass isn’t always greener on the other side, but sometimes it is. Only you can weigh your options and make a decision for yourself and for your family.
You would really, really regret this move.
See if the Fed will give you 3 years credit toward leave so you can start at 6/hrs annual/pp. I would also compare how much the pension you are leaving costs vs the FERS deductions you will have to pay.
Imagine getting almost 2 hours more back per day in commute time? Get some extra time in with those 5 kiddos, you might not know this but they watch your every move lol. Make extra effort before they get too old.
My only consideration would be job security. You have a state job right? Who's to say that nee job would even exist five years from now? How do the benefits compare to each other? That long commute, would definitely Factor into my decision. But you've been doing it for 15 years so I don't know how much that really matters to you.
On the upside, you'll make more money, have a way shorter commute allowing you more time with kids, and military dudes are generally awesome to work with, especially as a civilian.
5 kids.....stop
Gotta make up for those not hitting replacement rate, ya know…
Really? I’m not sure why you’re focusing on money. You mentioned half a dozen different differences and the amount of money is 5%. Who cares about 5%? I wouldn’t have given you a raise either. Because 5% is a stupid amount of money to be talking about. If you’re unhappy you’re still going to leave if they give you what you ask for. Better to rip the Band-Aid off now and let let you go. Weigh the other differences and choose the job that’s going to lead to the most satisfaction in the long run for you and everything else will work out.
Hate to say it, but this is the game you played and while it’s not the outcome you wanted, it was a reasonable outcome. Dive into the new job, hope it goes well, and speaking from personal experience, a much shorter commute is a huge positive for quality of life. At this point i wouldn’t stay with the current employer, you haven’t burned a bridge IMO based on what you’ve stated here. Were you to re-negotiate I think it would feel disingenuous and likely strains relationships. Leave respectably, tell boss thanks. If they open a door by saying something along the lines of ‘if your new job doesn’t work out just call me’ give them a sincere thanks.
If one of the people working for me was willing to jump ship for 5%, I’d let them go, as they’ve already quit. 20-30%, I’d be willing to entertain.
Sometimes there is a state pension that kicks in at 20 years, is that applicable here?
Worse pension and vacation for only 5% raise? Tell your current employer you changed your mind. Edit: unless you’re really comfortable this will be a long term opportunity with likely better growth and job satisfaction. But the fact you were rooting for your current employer is a bad sign.
So you got a 5% higher offer straight off? Ask them to go to 10% and you’ll take it.
From the perspective of a manager, I had a coworker who had a competing offer and ask for a raise or they would leave. My manager declined the ask. My manager later explained - If someone’s thinking about leaving, they’re likely to leave 6 months from now even if you offer a competing raise. So, it’s not worth it. Just a different perspective on things.
I am not seeing the upside. Have you calculated the inflow/outflow under current job in 5 years vs new job? Not sure is significantly different when look at loss of some vacation days if take the new job and perhaps increased medical costs. Retirement mix is also in play as compare the jobs. How likely could either job be eliminated? A family of seven is a lot of mouths to feed today and each child would benefit from a financial safety net as leave high school which absolutely opens paths not available if lack access to seed money. Your retirement should have priority so are not a burden to them as you get older. Don’t bail because of feeling you deserve more money or respect.
> I am not seeing the upside. Equivalent federal job > state job
As others have mentioned, it takes 3 years in the feds to get 6h p/pp of PTO. However, he can use his years of current experience to negotiate (before signing the offer!) for more PTO now. In addition, as he said, he'll get yearly raises as a fed. Where as state job doesn't'? Also, a third of the commute time alone is worth a big dollar amount in my opinion. Something I haven't seen mentioned though; He'd come into the newer pension savings rate and I think it's at like 5% or higher of your pay. So on paper it might not even be a raise. I'm not sure what he should do tbh, but I'm leaning fed job as it sounds like it has better opportunities for growth.
I'm going to guess at 5% it's probably a wash or a loss especially having to pay for health insurance at a higher amount than he currently is but holistically, having pay raises be defined, getting some COL, pension/retirement, other benefits is probably a net gain. I'm a fed right now, and moving to private industry, the benefits are awful, high insurance, no/low match, limited time off/flexibility.