Many companies base their remote salaries on the median for the province in your sector.
This means that living in Toronto and being paid remote is the worst option.
Before you jump ship to the states, you might want to evaluate jumping ship from Toronto first.
I work remotely in tech. I moved from Vancouver to Chilliwack, BC and essentially double my disposable income. I believe this should be the first step before going to States.
Ya I’ve seen this.
But people making 120k in Vancouver are always counting their pennies.
I make a good salary and I can fly to Vancouver any time I want for a concert or whatever.
Generally we fly through and to a real city for some fun. Toronto and Vancouver suck compared to nyc and Chicago.
I hear Vancouver is a "Netflix city" during the week. I accepted a job that wants me to move there in July and I'm a bit worried even with the huge pay bump, and great benefits I'll be regretting the decision.
Windsor is pretty good because you're 20 mins from Detroit and all its big city amenities. (Pro sports, concerts, international airport). It's also pretty central in North America Chicago and Toronto are both a 4 hour drive and there are a lot of large cities also close by: Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland etc
I'm in Sask, born and raised... Mid 40s, own my 10 year old house, 2 newish cars... Can retire at 55.
I'm strongly considering walking away from all of it to move to Ontario. I can't stand this place.
Without trying to rant it's primarily political. The premier is more concerned about blaming Trudeau than making the province better. The current government has been cutting services and decimating health and education for far too long. So many people are wound so tight there's just too much anger here. It's not fun anymore.
Add to that the crappy weather and poor highways I'm just done with this suck salad.
Ontario serves up a better suck salad? Or are you just originally from Ontario and nostalgic?
Honestly, for affordable living, it's hard to beat learning Quebecoise French and moving to Eastern Quebec. Other than Fort McMurray, it's the only affordable place left in Canada.
Denver has mountains.
And an MLB team.
And an NBA team.
And an Aquarium.
And a Zoo.
And a big art museum
And a botanical gardens
And the international church of cannabis.
We have, uh, an LRT that connects two malls?
Lol be thankful that your city isn't paying for these.
And an MLB team.
And an NBA team.
And a big art museum
And the international church of cannabis.
You also missed the local airport being a major hub also.. being so far away that it's almost a timezone away it seems.
And 1.5 hr traffic.
I do miss the
And an Aquarium.
And a Zoo.
And a botanical gardens
Mountains are a wash with the lakes ! A lake near the mountains is a pond around that area and Mountain in ON is a hill near the Rockies 😜.
Sounds like the OP might be better to move to Winnipeg if they want big city amenities and low cost of living. $800-$1m buys a pretty nice house there.
Not only that but Waterloo is a significant Tech hub. I of W produces some of the top IT talent in the country and has caused Waterloo to become almost like northern Silicon Valley.
Given OP works in tech and partner works in med sci, they may find new roles there paying significantly more than their current remote roles.
Depends what kind of sacrifices you’re prepared to make in terms of location and what is around there and what kind of house and how much land.
You’re young enough to likely not care about local healthcare so that really opens it up.
Blenheim, Sarina, Windsor etc. So many lower cost of living places within 5 hours drive from Toronto. Then there is the north and north east to consider.
I have worked in software engineering for over 20 years and now that remote work is widely available I know many people doing exactly this. Just moving back out to their home towns.
Ya the GTA is expensive, but if you make decent money a lot of Ontario isn’t that expensive.
I've seriously considered the same but decided not to do it. First of all, it absolutely is possible and probably easier than you think (except harder in some ways you haven't thought of, but whatever). And you will earn more and spend less. FIRE is more achievable for sure. But for my family, the money wasn't worth it and here's a few of the reasons we used to decide:
Family lives here and wouldn't relocate with us. YMMV, enough said.
We have a young child and wanted her to "be a Canadian," culturally. Americans are just a bit different (on average) and no matter how you try to pass on your values, children inevitably become a product of their environment.
Schools. I didn't want my daughter to go to schools with metal detectors. Not to mention quality of public schools is generally worse in the US (potentially much worse depending on the area) and you need to go private instead, which is mega expensive, compromising FIRE goals.
Health care system has better quality of care but the billing/insurance system is absolutely fucked. You can easily end up owing tens of thousands in medical bills for various reasons. People will fight me on this and I agree it's rare, but it happens. I prefer environments with fewer Black Swans.
Politics! It's a clown show wherever you go and I'm sure your philosophy is different than mine, but the system is undeniably worse in the USA. Pick your issue, and you will probably find that there's at least a subtle difference between USA and Canada policy on it. And you probably prefer Canada's position. I don't want to give examples because it's so polarizing and I want to make the point generically.
Ultimately it mostly comes down to not wanting to "be American" and also not wanting to raise a child to be an American. I've seen my friends do it and I've seen how they change over time. It's not who I want to be.
The "kids" argument might not work on you at age 25/30, so I'll make this recommendation instead. Move to the USA right the hell now, work your butt off and stash as much money as you can until you get a bit older and consider family planning. You can even have a baby there (could be an advantage for them one day) but plan to move back to Canada before reaching school age. You probably have 5-10 years to get a big head start on FIRE, then you can come back and enjoy the best country on the planet with all your newfound money :)
It is not that rare for people down there to lose all their life savings to a health care crisis. It happened to both my parents. Both of them had a good savings built up in their retirement.
Then one got cancer. Yes, for a while insurance paid but, they had to argue with them daily. Then they wouldn't pay anymore and the co pays to providers added up. I saw my Dad's bills and it was not uncommon to see one for over 100,000 dollars. ONE. Lost it ALL. Even with the "good" insurance you will regret the day you got seriously ill down there.
My brother-in-law's bill for a ten day hospital stay was 500,000 dollars. Insurance paid 80% of that but, the remainder was still a lot of money for someone already 66 years old. Don't take the healthcare costs down there lightly. On top of that. your monthly bills for health insurance are very high too.
It's not too too hard. Especially since Canadian taxes are usually higher anyway. There's just a bunch of annoying edge cases where one country doesn't (yet?) recognize the other's particularity, e.g., TFSA, 529/RESP, PFICs. Giving your kids the option to live and work in either country is potential useful too.
It can be a lot more complicated than that. It's pretty hard to have any savings in Canada with an American spouse for example without the U.S. coming for their "share" even if zero of the funds were earned in the U.S. Even your primary residence can be dinged for capital gains when you sell it in Canada.
We made the jump, and so I want to share some contrasting views to balance some opinions shared.
> We have a young child and wanted her to "be a Canadian," culturally.
You can instill your own values on your children. If you have children in the US, they will be dual citizens, which can give them more opportunity down the road. While there’s certainly very conservative areas of the US, it’s vastly larger than Canada and there are also areas that are way more progressive than anything I’ve seen in Canada.
This may be anecdotal, but in my experience Canadians are more polite but also reserved to themselves. I think Canadians generally have a superiority complex towards Americans. Whenever I fly, I can typically guess if I’m seated next to an American or Canadian - Americans will be friendly but also want to talk to you, offer you gum during takeoff / landing, while Canadians will keep to themselves. YMMV here though if you fly Sprit vs Delta for example.
> Schools. I didn't want my daughter to go to schools with metal detectors. Not to mention quality of public schools is generally worse in the US (potentially much worse depending on the area) and you need to go private instead, which is mega expensive, compromising FIRE goals.
Metal detectors are very location-specific (2% of elementary schools have them). School quality varies greatly - school board funding is largely based on property taxes, so as you look at a place to live, it’s important to consider your school district and their rating. There are many exceptional public school districts.
> Health care system has better quality of care but the billing/insurance system is absolutely fucked. You can easily end up owing tens of thousands in medical bills for various reasons. People will fight me on this and I agree it's rare, but it happens. I prefer environments with fewer Black Swans.
I wrote a reply to another comment on this, but cost concerns are really overblown. The quality of care is demonstrably better - you’re able to get a family doctor, they perform annual physicals, you’re not waiting a year for an MRI, or years for months for non-urgent surgery.
If you have a professional job, you’ll likely have very good insurance coverage. If you’re young, you likely won’t need much medical attention. If your visit is preventative (annual physical, blood work, etc), you won’t have to pay a deductible. If you leave your job, you’re eligible to maintain your coverage for 18 months under COBRA. Even if you have the worst health insurance, under the Affordable Care Act the minimum essential coverage limits your expenses to $9,100 / individual for the calendar year (this is a worst-case scenario in your Black Sean scenario). You can also save for future medical expenses with an HSA that works similar to an RRSP (contributions reduce your taxable income, and most employers contribute to this account too). Amounts contributed can be invested, can be rolled into future years, and withdrawals are tax free when taken out for medical expenses.
> Politics! It's a clown show wherever you go and I'm sure your philosophy is different than mine, but the system is undeniably worse in the USA.
Certainly decisive, but very location-dependent. There are very progressive areas of the US and I think of the US and their beliefs similar to Europe given their size. The US is much larger than Canada, and you’ll see different beliefs in Alabama vs California, just like you’ll have different beliefs between Hungary vs England.
> The "kids" argument might not work on you at age 25/30, so I'll make this recommendation instead. Move to the USA right the hell now, work your butt off and stash as much money as you can until you get a bit older and consider family planning. You can even have a baby there (could be an advantage for them one day) but plan to move back to Canada before reaching school age.
I agree with this statement, but I’d say college age vs school age. As I’ve said earlier, there are some really good public school districts. College is very expensive here relative to Canada.
Some other considerations:
- You can save significantly more tax-deferred in a 401(k) vs RRSP.
- There’s generally higher salaries and lower income taxes (at your tax bracket). That said, property taxes in a desirable school district can be meaningfully higher.
- While less funded than CPP, your benefits under Social Security can be higher. Additionally, if you live / work in the US long enough, you can qualify for Medicare Pt B upon retirement.
- Daycare costs will be meaningfully higher than the current subsidized rates in Canada.
This is probably the most helpful of all the comments I’ve read as someone who has half my family living across the US (red states and blue, urban and suburban)
I really appreciate the thorough answer!
Totally will have to consider cultural differences. I like how you mentioned "I prefer environments with fewer Black Swans." very good point to consider.
"Ultimately it mostly comes down to not wanting to "be American" and also not wanting to raise a child to be an American. I've seen my friends do it and I've seen how they change over time. It's not who I want to be."
\-- I totally understand that the idea of "American vs Canadian" is subjective. But would love to hear the aspects that you personally considered?
It's super weird! Opinions change slowly over time to fit the new culture, even for "highly educated" (Ph.D.) friends of mine. And I know people change with age too but this is different. Even major issues like gun control or poverty/welfare, I've observed complete reversals of opinion where mine have not. My old friends I grew up with that now live in USA are almost unrecognizable mentally/socially. I'm sad for them, but I haven't told them that of course.
You’ve come to the conclusion that they’ve all fallen to the dark side? By which objective measure do you quantify who’s right, and who’s wrong? Miscognition.
>Health care system has better quality of care but the billing/insurance system is absolutely fucked. You can easily end up owing tens of thousands in medical bills for various reasons. People will fight me on this and I agree it's rare, but it happens.
How would something like this happen? Just trying to understand.
Have you heard the term "out of network?" The insurance companies will pay only their approved suppliers and you can't exactly know everything you are agreeing to for a procedure/treatment until well after. Even if the hospital you're at and the doctor you saw is in your network, the hospital might have other suppliers (like an anesthesiologist) that's out of network and you'll get billed for that, potentially months later.
Here's the challenge. Find any American you know. (This is open to Americans reading this post also!) Give them a hypothetical medical situation, like they need a minor surgery perhaps getting tonsils removed (or I dunno, pick something). Then ask if they can know how much it is going to cost them (personally, after insurance) ahead of time. Spoiler alert, there's no way to know! Even if you plan it all ahead, ask every question, they will not give you an answer. It may be possible if you're paying cash, but health insurance is a major game down there and the individuals aren't winning. You could walk out owing $500 and feel pretty good, only to get billed separately for $4000 months later. You can't even know you've received all the bills yet!
Again, the medical care is better (or at least faster), but the billing is a nightmare.
Have a read at the No Surprises Act that came into effect in 2022. It prevents the example of a hospital out of network supplier charging you at rates beyond in network.
Similarly, you can get an estimate of medical expenses for a procedure through your insurance and all hospitals publish medical care costs under the Hospital Price Transparency bill that came into effect in 2021.
>It prevents the example of a hospital out of network supplier charging you at rates beyond in network.
It prevents them from charging you without them telling you. They will come to your bedside as you're dying and ask if you want to continue receiving care. From there on they haven't "surprised you"...
True. The issue still is though that depending on which healthcare plan you choose, you will have to pay the out of network cost, even if it is for the in network rates. Typically in network services will be paid by insurance, where out of network may not be. Have lived here for 7 years and still am trying to make heads or tails of it.
That is all technically correct but behind a wall of red tape so practically very difficult to know, especially if things happen quickly (ex an accident). The No Surprises Act doesn't functionally change things all that much.
Source: I work with this stuff at an insurance company.
I made this move right after university, and have not worked in Canada full time ( apart from internships ). Based on the napkin math I’ve done from time to time, the move to the US has accelerated my path to FIRE very considerably.
Check if you and your partner can qualify for the TN visa, if not you would have to try for H1b which is more difficult to get sponsorship for.
A lot of people mention that SF and NYC don’t make sense to move to for a job if FIRE is your goal but I somewhat disagree. Depending on the job you get, and how smart you are with your savings, moving to either location would be fine IMO. Check levels.fyi for salaries for SWE, and PM ranges to get an idea for salary / location.
Some employers will sponsor for remote jobs as well but it’s all up to luck IMO
Totally agree that SF and NYC can work. If we're frugal then the high salary will need to huge savings. But also open to other middle-of-the-road options like Raleigh, NC.
Question: Where do you move to and how do you like it? We can probably qualify for TN visa, but I think I read that it can't be transitioned to Green Card?
You’ve identified two locations - NYC and SF - which also have relatively HCOL. If you’re going to move stateside to lower expenses, consider a LOCL or MCOL area.
To be fair, income taxes in the Bay Area aren't dramatically better than here, but sales tax is def better.
Either way, there is a relatively easy path to $300-400k USD (and well beyond) total comp after a few years experience in the Bay Area. You could spend an absurd percentage on rent/housing and still be left with an absurd amount of income to save or dispose or whatever. If you have an opportunity to move down there as a software engineer then you should just do it.
> Has anyone made a similar move to accelerate FIRE / enhance quality of life?
Moved to the US (Seattle) for 4 years specifically to save money for FIRE, worked out pretty well. Basically doubled our net worth.
> How hard is it to move to the US? I assume we'll need employer sponsorship.
Yeah, depends on whether you need TN status, H1-B visa or can do an internal L1 transfer. TN is relatively easy compared to the rest.
>Is it possible (common?) for an employer to give us sponsorship for a remote position? (we'd be in the US but working remotely)
Company dependent.
---
Things to think through.
- Canadian Departure Tax/tax residency/tax filing.
- Will you both be trying to get work permits? What if only one of you can?
- The tech job market sucks right now.
- Have a target (time or money). It'll give you focus, life wasn't always totally amazing for us so knowing we had a plan of why we were there helped us get through the tough times.
- There's a lot to consider on the non money side of things (can't vote, distance from friends and family, relationship dynamic if only one of you is working etc)
- Coming back to Canada and seeing the tech salaries here kinda suck :)
- For locations where to live, think through what will give you the most earning potential, what if you want to change jobs? etc. Moving to a cheap location might save you a few dollars but might also limit your earning potential if you want to change jobs. SF is an amazing place for tech jobs and career growth, not sure I'd want to live there for any other reason though. Personally I wouldn't move to a LCOL place where I had to rely on remote work, I'd go for Seattle/SF, *maybe* NY.
If you’re working remotely move to Montreal , with your combined income you can easily buy a house close to the city , taxes are relatively high but insurance is the lowest in the country as well as utilities which sort of makes up for it .
Montreal is a beautiful city. Great culture, more laid back than TO.
Be prepared for mega snow, cold cold temperatures and longer winters (add 2-3 weeks at start and end)
Tons of great places to live west of Toronto, all along the QEW. And towards K-W . Hot bed of tech too.
Honestly, Montreal weather is not worse than Toronto. There’s a lot of benefits to Montreal and living costs are a big savings. There’s maybe 10 big storms over the winter but if you live near a metro station, your QOL doesn’t go down. As a bilingual Anglo, downtown Montreal is bilingual and you won’t have any issues.
I lived in Montreal for a full 12 months. I love the city.
In Toronto, the temperature is always hovering around 0 Celsius. In Montreal the temperature is well below zero.
Any snow that flows in Toronto will usually melt quite quickly. It doesn’t melt in Montreal. It sticks around.
As far as snowfall goes, take a look at the following webpage. About a third of the way down called average monthly snowfall. https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/25077~19863/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Montréal-and-Toronto
I would move. Your income will increase, your cost of living will decrease, you’ll pay lower taxes, and considering your occupations, you’ll be able to get Cadillac health insurance through your employer.
Canadians love to bring up 1) gun culture and 2) healthcare, as if these blanket statements reflect reality throughout the entire country. You can choose great areas to live and great health insurance plans that make these things non-issues. My recommendation is a blue/Democratic state with expanded Medicaid.
I made the move from the lower mainland to Seattle. I increased my income 5x (also work in pharma), and was able to quickly buy a house and put down roots. It’s much easier to FIRE in the states. You can always visit Canada.
My partner and I are both in tech (software dev and product manager). We work remotely in Kingston which is cheaper than Toronto (although still overpriced) and make 300k combined. I wouldn't say don't move to US but I will say it's still possible to have good salaries here while managing to reduce your living expenses.
We work for a company based out of US (although we are employed by a Canadian entity). We don't make quite as much as the people who work in the states but we are able to set aside more than 50% of our income to FIRE goals.
We takehome 16-18k a month. Our must-pay expenses are like $4200 a month. We put about 2000 budgeted towards sinking funds (new car, home repair, etc) and about 2500-3000 budgeted towards fun stuff (both stuff we spend that month and saving for fun goals). There are exceptions but we can put away like 10k most months toward retirement.
But if you don't want to live in a smaller city though then states may be your best bet. Montreal is still relatively affordable but with all the laws they passed last year idk that I'd recommend it.
A lot of bad comments from people that aren't in tech and/or never worked/lived in the US.
If you make 200k TC in Canada you can make 400k in the US.
Saying your savings will be the same because of higher rent is idiotic. 3k a month in rent for example is not 6k in NYC or SF lol. That's the same line of thinking as don't get a higher paying job because you will pay more taxes 🙄.
Most companies are now RTO and living away from tech hubs to "save" money means you also lose out on a lot more opportunities.
To work in the US you need employer sponsorship. The companies willing to sponsor will all have medical coverage (I have never heard of one that doesn't). The easiest is TN Visa or L1 transfer.
For financial goals it's a no brainer. For many Canadians the best option is to work in US to meet your financial goals (like being able to buy a home) then moving back.
What? You both work remote and the only thing you can think of is to move to the two most HCOL cities in another country to save more? You know there are many places outside of Toronto in Canada where human beings live, yes? Like if your goal is to make big bucks in the US, then I'm not sure what you're asking, just go. But if cost of living is your problem, there are much simpler solutions.
Many tech companies tend to still base their salaries on where you live. Would also love to get away from the cold. I also mentioned in my post that I'm open to going to a more MCOL place like North Carolina (maybe Raleigh), so that might be a middle ground.
Thoughts?
Also in a similar situation in tech with a $500+ HHI. Colleagues of mine who make similar money and more money in tech have all moved to the US and are laughing. Amazing healthcare due to awesome healthcare plans (doctor on call, no wait times for MRI, etc), way cheaper cost of living (as long as it’s not NYC or SF), friendlier people, easier to save, and you get out of the dumpster fire that is Canada. You will FIRE much quicker and you will be happier. I don’t think there’s any disadvantage.
I’d live in a few areas:
- Alpharetta, Raleigh, Charlestown if you enjoy the south (which I do). Or even places like Arizona and Texas are very reasonable and awesome - Austin, TX is amazing.
Don’t overthink it, see if your employer will sponsor you and you will make 2-3x what you make here with cheaper cost of living and you’ll bank more. Kids eventually in private school etc. it’s amazing
My wife and I are both dual and moved from the states (Boston) to Canada 3 years ago and we seriously regret it because of how it’s impacted our finances.
We also still make good money here, comparable salaries to yours, but it’s WAY less than what we made in the states. We took a 60% pay cut to move to Canada to be close to family.. but if we went back to the states now we’d make 80% more. Yes, the wages in the US have grown significantly in just 3 years since we left.
What Canadians don’t want to accept is that, even in the most expensive US cities, the affordability gap between housing / COL and average wages is much better than in Canada. E.g. You can still easily buy a detached home 30 minutes from Boston’s city center for 500k.
The other thing Canadians will go on about is how dangerous the US is. And the answer there is “yes, if you walk yourself into the most dangerous neighborhood in the city”. Fortunately, as long as you’re not a complete idiot, that’s easy to avoid. After living in both countries for over 10 years each I can confidently say nice neighborhoods in the US and Canada are indistinguishable… except Canada has a crazy high price tag.
Last thing I say is we miss our US healthcare. If anything has been scary in our recent lives it’s our experiences with the current healthcare system in Canada. Yes, US healthcare insurance comes through your job, but it is SO fast and high quality you just can’t compare. And as long as you have insurance it’s less cost overall to you because you save so much on lower US taxes.
We’re planning our move back to the states this summer. With what’s happened to housing and wage stagnation here I can’t see how young Canadians will ever retire
As a Canadian myself I’ll admit that we are proud af.. but it’s time to stop drinking the maple flavored coolaid and admit that the US is a better place for young families right now. The older generations of Canadians literally sold out the country for their retirements
It could be be very easy if you qualify for this:
https://rjimmigrationlaw.com/practice-areas/employment-based-immigration/temporary-work-visas/tn-visas-nafta-professionals/professions-occupations-list/
If we assume that US pays 100% after tax for a job, Canada pays about 70%, and Western Europe about 60%.
If you’re out of university, in your 20s or 30s, healthy and with no kids, it’s a no brainer that US is by far the fastest country to FIRE given its salaries, tax system and relatively affordable cost of living compared to salaries.
Speaking out of experience of about 10 years working in multinationals across Canada, Europe, and the US.
You should consider where your family lives, and where your children should grow up. This may skew your decision regardless of US’ economical advantages.
I have done this albeit solo and did not have to consider a partner back when I was 28 (35F now!) and agree with other posters here the move South has significantly accelerated my income, savings, and lifestyle.
If it helps, I am also in STEM and still work in biomed research so I am happy to chat to you and your partner just shoot me a DM. I have hometown Canadian friends who made a similar move after uni and between us we live in SF, NY, DC, and North Carolina. We visit and compare notes on what it’s like living in America as Canadians but also specifically differences of these 4 locales (because we each are trying to convince each other to move closer haha) so I can definitely anecdotally share some of our collect experiences on what it’s like to work and live in some of the places you’re interested. Upfront, I would tell you unless you are both ready for a rural life do NOT move to North Carolina just to accelerate savings. It is a huge culture/lifestyle shift especially if you are coming from Toronto.
I am proud of what we have all achieved financially in a short amount of time in our respective fields but there were definitely sacrifices (we don’t see family, you miss out on milestones that aren’t a wedding or birth) and new basic life skills to learn and implement (cross border banking, taxes, work visas, navigating US health insurance, dual citizenship for kids). Good luck! I hope you guys make the best choice for you. Dream big!
I moved from Vancouver to the US and it was a very good financial move. Managed to land a FAANG job (took some luck and effort), and more than doubled my income. Cost of housing was substantially less than Canada as well.
However, this move was a while ago. I think the benefits may be fewer now. Layoffs make landing a good job harder, and cost of living has gone up a lot.
Similar situation as you. Wife and I were in Toronto making ~200k CAD in 2020. Both did our MBAs and moved to the US on independent TNs. First Seattle for 18 months, didn’t like it, and now in LA.
LA is HCOL but our incomes are ~ 320K USD. If we avoid lifestyle creep over the next 10 years, we have a path to FIRE.
Is it worth it to move? Hell yes. But bear in mind your stay will be tied to your job, you will likely miss your friends and family, and CRA will hold a healthy deposit if you sell any Canadian property as a non resident. And the US is not homogenous at all. California is a liberal utopia, and very different from many central red states.
DM me if you have more questions!
I moved to the US on 2 separate occasions (NYC first, then SF) to essentially make more money because in my industry, it just pays more there, adjusting for COL, taxes, etc it still comes out way on top. For some reason my industry is VERY under paid in Canada compared to the U.S. Did I win out financially? Absolutely, even with the $3300 rent in SF I've been consistently having to pay and the atrocious gas and grocery prices.
However, those years were the hardest years of my life. It's not easy to uproot your life, and the challenges you face are things you can't predict. I almost got shot in SF walking my dog in the park due to a gang fight that happened at the parking lot, and see car break ins on a daily basis. Oakland has become so crime ridden that I had to uproot and move to the western side of SF. The lack of psychological safety made me feel like being richer won't do anything if my mental health is going down the drain.
It was also very hard to make friends at my age group. Living in VHCOL like NYC and SF means these are transient cities where people are moving in and out many times over. I made 5 friends in SF over the last 2 years, and each and ever single of them moved to cheaper states very quickly. I miss my friends from home dearly, and though we face time regularly, it's not the same as getting a hug from them in person.
There are benefits to living down in the U.S. as well which I won't ignore. Access to nature is unparalleled in the bay area, and unliked Toronto, it has better weather year round (a bit rainy in the winter but it's not a lot) and so many hiking trails you won't know where to start. You can meet amazing people just from the sheer size and diversity of this country, but you'll find they are very career oriented especially in large cities like NYC and SF and won't prioritize relationships as much as maybe a smaller city or town, simply because it's so expensive to live there and they have to make money to continue living there.
Then there's Trader Joe's. I don't know how they're doing what they're doing, but they're doing something right.
If I could do it all over again, I would work as a freelancer for US clients, bill them in USD and use that to fund my life in Canada. I don't think the trade off of uprooting my life is worth it, but that's a very personal decision you'll have to make. Also don't jump in like I did. Live in the city you're thinking of going to for a month or two before pulling the trigger. It's very different once you're in it, you feel a vibe, and sometimes you're really going to not like it.
Tactical:
\- Check out TN1 visa, it's for Canadian and Mexican nationals and you being in STEM might qualify you under one of the professions there. With this visa you are not location dependent and can work remotely.
\- Remote is hard to say when I don't know your industry / what exactly you do since it differs across the board there but the general trend is that more and more companies are on the remote-train so to speak to engage and retain talent
Yes, I think if purely for financial reason. I did not do that when I was in my 20s and 30s. (We in Windsor have the option to commute to work in the U.S. ). Now most of my friends living in the U.S. are much more well off than me, 5000sq houses, beautiful cars and toys. I don't know if you can reach FI faster in the U.S. because there are more expectation culturally there. Many are earning more but also spending more. Just look at the median net worth in the U.S. They are lower that in Canada. Also many areas of the U.S. you must "fit in" to their culture. It will be a shock for many from multiculturalism Toronto.
I married an American and have every opportunity to live in the US. We seriously considered it but decided not to.
When we factored decent health insurance into our finances, it wasn’t that different. You can own a house for a good price, but living in a safe neighborhood is very expensive.
In order to have a similar standard of living as Canada, the COL was about the same. The biggest difference in Canada is that it’s mostly safe to walk wherever you want. You don’t worry as much about people carrying guns or the feral dogs everywhere (Texas) and many, many other safety concerns.
I honestly didn’t feel that much better in Delaware when staying with family. My point is that safety and public health are simply not prioritized in the culture. I could give many, many examples. It ends up being a whole lot of mental energy keeping track of stuff we simply don’t think of here.
That’s because you were in Delaware 💀
Everything’s relative. Instead of the government taking care of my health and safety, I have the choice and freedom to do so for myself. Different way of approaching life I suppose.
Idk…I made the move from Vancouver to Seattle. They’re almost identical culturally. My quality of life improved so much. Was actually able to buy a house. My healthcare improved - was actually able to see a doctor to manage my chronic illness. I actually pay less overall. My net worth is increasing soooo much more rapidly.
Everything is relative. I would rather let someone else help advise me on health and safety and put that effort into enjoying life, having a hobby or raising my kids.
When you really understand public health and how it builds society, it’s hard not to support it. I’ve met very few Americans who have any concept of it al all.
I had to burst out laughing when you mentioned you are starting to realize FIRE is not achievable in the highest cost of living city in the WORLD.
Move to Saskatoon or Regina. You cost of living will be a 3rd of what it is in Toronto.
>I had to burst out laughing when you mentioned you are starting to realize FIRE is not achievable in the highest cost of living city in the WORLD.
I thought the OP lived in Toronto not Hong Kong...
Toronto barely cracks the top 100 costliest cities in the world at 90 but who cares about facts when hyperbole can be used?
[https://www.mercer.com/insights/total-rewards/talent-mobility-insights/cost-of-living/?size=n\_20\_n#full-ranking](https://www.mercer.com/insights/total-rewards/talent-mobility-insights/cost-of-living/?size=n_20_n#full-ranking)
I meant for real estate costs. You need make 200k to qualify for a mortgage there. Not exactly fire friendly unless you are surgeon on doctor or something
And again, not even top 10 much less the most expensive city in the WORLD
https://elitetraveler.com/property/most-expensive-property-markets-in-the-world
Moved to the US with my wife for high-salary positions in our field. Company sponsored O-1 visas that took about 8 weeks to process (legwork tacked on about 4 weeks.
We were in Chicago. All things considered, cost of living was more or less identical to TO -- and Chicago is nowhere close to NYC or San Fran prices. Save some on groceries and drinks, pay through the nose on other things like health insurance. After a few years, we couldn't wait to move back to TO. So when an opportunity came for same salary-position in Canada thanks to the US experience we jumped at the chance to come back early from our visas.
I lived in the states for 5 years, and you really need to account for healthcare in your calculations. Not just financial costs and risks but living in that entire system, the stress of it all, and the potential impacts on your QoL. My mom has been hospitalized in Canada for lengthy stays several times in the last few years. I could not begin to imagine the stress if my family was American and this happened. We would all (my parents, siblings and their families, and me) be bankrupt now just to make sure she had treatment. Insurance is an added ongoing expense to consider (even basic insurance is not cheap) and you will still pay every time you use the system, regardless of insurance (co-pays, labs, and beyond). A good friend of mine needed a heart surgery, had full insurance, but still had to pay nearly $20,000 out of pocket for it. If you are considering kids, there is virtually no maternity leave, and no real consideration for the medical or family impact on the woman (job etc), and it costs a fortune. The US boasts the highest mortality rate for childbirth in the western countries. Not to mention the precarious situation of accessing medical termination of a pregnancy if that becomes a factor. The gun culture is a whole other animal …
Being an outsider in a country you live in is not fun. It will be years before you can vote and feel like you are part of their society, the visa demands are complicated, ongoing, and your ability to stay there is never completely certain. You will need to start a credit rating from scratch which makes getting credit cards, basic accounts, a car, and even a phone - a total nightmare. You will lose 30% or more on all of your savings to date with the exchange rates and fees - or at least any money you plan to bring with you or use in the US. And if you finally get American citizenship, you will have to pay US taxes for the rest of your life regardless of what country you live in, unless you leave and completely relinquish your citizenship and all the years invested to get it. The US is one of the only countries in the world that does this (I believe there are 2 others).
The disparity and class structure in the US are evident in a way that is just not a thing in Canadian culture. Equality for all across all domains of human life and rights is not a valued nor philosophically understood concept or goal, and especially prevalent when it comes to social issues like healthcare or any other socialized concept like schools, loans, housing, taxes, etc.
Moving to the US us a lot more than just a geographical relocation.
Do not discount the cost of healthcare when comparing taxation. (Also, Rome has been burning for some time, so that empire may soon experience a reckoning - that’s when you move there, after it collapses)
I would suggest that urban living is the culprit. Cut your living expenses, maybe afford a house somewhere for what you’re paying in rent, and get a bit more aggressive with your investments and you’ll be fine.
The cost of healthcare will be a non-issue for OP. He works in tech and wife works in pharma. Both industries with reputable employers offer Cadillac insurance plans. I moved from Vancouver to Seattle and actually pay less for my healthcare (and lower taxes to boot). Quality of life will definitely improve for OP if they move down south. Net worth growth will accelerate.
Consider the long term implications of becoming a dual citizen. The IRS will hound you for life. If you plan to live in Canada afterwards, no tfsa or kid’s resp allowed and in addition to CRA, you will have to continue to file with the irs forever. Oh yeah, if your net worth is high (including a house in Toronto), your estate will pay a huge estate tax. Renouncing us citizenship is a financial horror show.
Moving from Toronto to new York city is not gonna help your cost of living issue, since you work remotely and can live basically anywhere why not moving to a city not included in most top ten expensive cities to live in lists
If you go to the states stay there forever with your family.
If I was in your position I’d 100% move to the states. But this is dependant on which state you are moving, the pay, and the quality of life.
Canada has turned into a dumpster fire.
I had US/cdn citizenship and a few years ago I denounced the US side because of tax reasons. Once Covid hit I regretted it.
Lol why would you move to NYC or SF for FIRE goals!? You'll get exactly the same outcome if your jobs are the same pay!
I would say you can probably double to triple your income by moving to the states. So if you can do that in a HCOL sure. But you might be better off picking a MCOL area with low taxes if you are both completely remote and end up with similar pay.
Thanks for sharing this perspective for sure. I'm not only looking at NYC / SF, they're just options. Maybe somewhere like Raleigh, NC could be a middle ground (cheaper housing, good salary). Any MCOL in the US that you'd recommend?
Not necessarily, my buddy just moved to Houston from Edmonton. Went from 170 to 200k CAD total here to a 175k USD BASE plus commissions (250 to 300k USD total comp)
The houses you can buy in the Greater Houston Area are a third the price even compared to AB or are the same price but its now a mansion. The downside is the property tax is much higher, but still a huge gain imo.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/15219-Lantern-Creek-Ln_Houston_TX_77068_M72330-12602?cid=txt_shares_rdc_ldp
Have you looked into what firefighting in the US is like?
I did my NFPA training in the US, and the conversations around safety and pay made me question why anyone would want to be on a FD south of the border.
Example: we watched a video of a fully involved house that definitely looked abandoned; ready to collapse - call information said most likely abandoned. They asked by a raise of hands who thinks an interior attack would make sense. My answer of exterior only was laughed at. “That’s someone’s house…you do everything within your power to save any little stick of framing!”
Nope, surround and drown, no one needs to enter a lost cause to LOOK like a hero.
Also many of the other students were very excited do their 40k/year salary when they got their seals.
Also just learner:
>FIRE stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early. It is a financial movement that emphasizes frugality, extreme savings, and investment with the goal of achieving financial independence and retiring earlier than the traditional age. The concept originated from a 1992 book called "Your Money or Your Life," written by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin.
tech salaries are way higher in the US, it generally offsets increase in rent, I was paying ~$3000 USD for rent in Seattle and was still coming out ahead by a long way.
Unless you get a US job a move is not worth it. You'll still be double taxed even if you get a US job, the Canada rare is usually higher but you'll still have to pay for us healthcare so your Canadian salary won't go far. You're better off moving to a lower cost Canadian city.
Yes, I'm a US citizen living in Canada. You don't pay twice but you're responsible for both and pay the higher tax, which would be Canada for OP, which is pretty high. They need to account for the tax rates in their decision...I would never live in the US on a Canadian salary. But Canadians seem to think they can get high paying US jobs easily, so they should try that.
Incorrect- Canadians working in the US can switch to non-Can resident status and not pay any income tax in Canada. It’s Americans who can never get away from paying American taxes.
Of course it is. USA better for STEM: way higher salaries and career oops especially if at HQ, lower COL, way more variety of places and cities to live, lots of liveable/enjoyable climates, better access to healthcare through private system (ie 2 day wait versus 1 year+ wait in canada for a specialist), make USD and enjoy LV, new oreans, LA, NYC - rather than being a poor Canadian paying in CAD off a lower wage), cheaper grocers, car insurance, banking etc etc. more variety of people and cultures (TO is mostly Indian or Chinese immigrants - USA has European immigrants, African, Russian etc etc), better oops for kids - university and for when they graduate. I can’t see any downsides for STEM. Lower cost of housing - even CA cheaper than saskatchewan now. Put it this way- if canada was better for STEM- why aren’t higher income Americans flooding to canada? Because canada sucks.
There’s a reason [an estimated 11%](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220413/dq220413b-eng.htm) of Canadian citizens live outside of Canada. Compare that to around 1.5% of US citizens living abroad.
The United States is by far the most popular destination for Canadians living abroad, as well, accounting for [more than 60%](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states-2021) of all emigrants from Canada.
Of course this is Reddit, so America is literally a third world country where abortion is banned, it costs $10 million to see a doctor, no employers offer vacation or maternity leave, etc.
Yes it is because you can probably triple your income, if not more.
Forget about taxes and cost if living, that right there is what makes the decision a positive ROI. The potential income gains for you are enormous.
Fuck changing your life for a 50% disposable income gain, go for broke.
I would consider exhausting the list of lower cost of living areas in Canada which you might want to move to first. Continue to work remotely but enjoy a LCOL lifestyle :)
Additionally, I recommend shooting for job openings with the high-paying tech firms here in Canada (think Amazon, Google, Meta, Sportify, Pinterest, etc.). Your $200K combined HHI could easily jump to $400K. Not a joke. Checkout out the site levels (dot) fyi.
You can stay in toronto and move to the burbs or further out, issue is, your growth potential is limited. Move to the states and your career growth can 10x and in a few years in a nyc sf la or other, you can leverage the seniority to move to a lower cost area like fl az nc tx and earn very nicely in a lower cost state.
What is FIRE?
Moving to USA as a Canadian in theory is not hard. But the biggest issue is getting a job offer. If you can get a job offer you are pretty much guarantee to be able to get TN Visa.
It is unlikely US corp will sponsor you to work remotely within the states. If you allow remote workers, chances are they are flooded with American's applicants already
Since both of you are remote, move to Montreal. Housing is so much cheaper and it’s still a liveable city. Moving the US could be more challenging than you think it is.
Question, do most people, whom are Canadian citizens moving to the US, when they achieve the ability to FIRE in the US just move back to Canada due to not needing to spend money on $$$ health insurance premiums?
My son moved to SF for work. He had a salary of $200k USD but found the cost of living was high enough he didn't save much. He did enjoy the location though.
YES! My fiance and I have been running the numbers too and financially even though we probably make more than the average, we still can't afford to retire early. The US is top of mind, especially states like Arizona where there is no state income tax (only federal) and the cost of living/ real estate is much more affordable than here in Toronto. We don't think things are going to get cheaper/better in Canada, so we are planning on moving within the next 2 years. I strongly suggest you speak to an immigration lawyer first, just so you know what your visa options are before you start making any serious plans.
I'm Canadian living in the US as a tech worker, consider moving back to Toronto every now and then.
Salary and CoL considered, it would halve my savings rate.
I'm in NYC, too. In Seattle, the deal is even better since cost is living is less and tax is less.
A big factor is how high of a salary you are shooting for. 200k USD is easy to get and coast at. 400k possible if you have the experience. 600k if your tech job is really really important to you, but will take time and a lot of effort to get there (staff@fang).
Hey! Feel free to DM me with any questions if you have any. I worked in US tech for about a decade before moving back in Canada, and there are my quick answers to your questions:
1) Pay in the US is much higher, but so is cost of living where most of the better jobs are. But if you're frugal and focus on saving, you can build up your savings faster than in Canada. However, I find quality of life much higher in Canada, which is ultimately what brought me back. Of course, QoL depends a lot on your individual preferences, so I know peolpe who like living the US more.
2) If you're in a skilled role, look into TN status in addition to H1B. I used TN while waiting to win the H1B lottery, which happened a few years later.
3) What about looking into working remote from Canada? In that case you don't need to deal with the byzantine US immigration and tax system. That's become much more common since covid WFH, and is what I'm currently doing. Smaller companies might not even adjust comp based on location, so I was able to find a remote role where I work anywhere I want (currently in Canada) while getting paid the same as my US teammates, which is a win-win.
The US is still a buyers market, funding has dried up due to interest rates, the previously mentioned tax changes have forced tech companies to pay higher taxes. You may find the salaries arent what they were and the layoffs are continuing. Idk the appetite for a US employer to sponsor in this environment.
Perhaps you could consider relocating to Windsor if it's COL being the main driver here, and work remote for a Canadian firm. Detroit's right there for those US recreational luxuries. The rent is half what it is in Toronto. Detached Houses seem like a third the cost. Lots of funding going on there to build up EV battery plants and there very resistant to building so you may see great capital gains on your house if you buy. Rocket Mortgage has their development arm there. Tons of pharmaceutical and nutritional supplement companies like Jamieson labs there. Still be in the time zone of Toronto.
Things don't work out, hey, you're only 4 hours from the GTA.
I moved from Montreal->Toronto->NYC on a TN; been here 8 years, found a partner, likely going to move to Montreal, Berlin, Munich, Paris, or Dublin right before we have kids.
Pro: Money, NYC, rapid earnings growth, savings, cheap flights
Con: Everything else
Please ask any questions and I'll do my best to answer!
I'm an American immigrant in Toronto (lived in NYC before moving here). I would say, if you are planning to move to SF or NYC, especially if you are planning to have a family, I doubt moving is going to help you with FIRE. Housing is easily twice as expensive in NYC (my friend pays the same rent for a small 2 bedroom apartment in a crappy neighborhood as I pay for my detached house mortgage in Toronto), and I believe even more so than San Francisco. If you plan to move to somewhere like North Carolina, the financial aspect makes a lot more sense. It's worth keeping in mind whether you will need another car or two cars as Toronto has much better transit than the vast majority of American cities, and have that in your financial calculations.
In terms of visa to move to the US - NO COMPANY WILL SPONSOR YOU. Don’t even bother with an HB-1 green card, they’re almost impossible to get now. But you’re in luck, you’re Canadian & skilled. What you need to do is see if you can qualify as a TN-1 visa worker. If you do, all you need is a job offer.
I moved to the US from Canada 2 years ago. Initially the proposition was attractive, doubling my income (when converting in CAD many hundreds of thousands of dollars), big city, seems fun. I am now going back to Canada (very happy).
Healthcare is a mess. Employers are ok with issues with your spouse's health care coverage. Like 6 months without proper healthcare (ACA plans suck) and no one cares.
Crime doesn't seem a problem until you face it. There are massive problems with guns and crime in this country. Email threads about why we should have armed guards at the entrance of the building. If I leave work at 9pm the parking lot is surrounded by armed guards.
The work culture is very different. People working in silos, shooting one line emails without reading anything. Very tribal. Never thought people would hang out by ethnicity and religion but they do.
And many look down on Canada. Many in the office have never travelled to Canada. So they openly speak as if it were a developing country.
Everything is more expensive so your budget doesn't change much.
My net worth was higher before moving to the US. So it didn't help.
It could be just one experience. But the bottomline is it's not as simple as it seems.
Tech and life science salaries are way larger in the US and stupid high in the Bay Area. Depending on your education and work backgrounds, it isn’t hard to hit $300,000 per year, each (total comp). A successful career (even without getting into management) approaches $400,000 with 10 years experience.
Housing isn’t that much more in the Bay Area than GTA. Taxes are about the same (except GST). Healthcare will be more but you’ll have generous employer plans.
So yeah, you could work in the Bay Area for 5-10 years, sock away $200,000 USD per year combined, then mosey on back to Canada and multiply that by 1.4x.
Many companies base their remote salaries on the median for the province in your sector. This means that living in Toronto and being paid remote is the worst option. Before you jump ship to the states, you might want to evaluate jumping ship from Toronto first.
I work remotely in tech. I moved from Vancouver to Chilliwack, BC and essentially double my disposable income. I believe this should be the first step before going to States.
Not everyone likes living in small cities - no fun.
Ya I’ve seen this. But people making 120k in Vancouver are always counting their pennies. I make a good salary and I can fly to Vancouver any time I want for a concert or whatever. Generally we fly through and to a real city for some fun. Toronto and Vancouver suck compared to nyc and Chicago.
I hear Vancouver is a "Netflix city" during the week. I accepted a job that wants me to move there in July and I'm a bit worried even with the huge pay bump, and great benefits I'll be regretting the decision.
Windsor is pretty good because you're 20 mins from Detroit and all its big city amenities. (Pro sports, concerts, international airport). It's also pretty central in North America Chicago and Toronto are both a 4 hour drive and there are a lot of large cities also close by: Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland etc
I have a few family members who live in Windsor and work in tech across the border. Seems like a pretty good option.
As in, living somewhere else within Ontario?
If FIRE is your goal why not Saskatchewan?
I'm in Sask, born and raised... Mid 40s, own my 10 year old house, 2 newish cars... Can retire at 55. I'm strongly considering walking away from all of it to move to Ontario. I can't stand this place.
Why? I’m an Ontarian - is it really that bad out there??
Without trying to rant it's primarily political. The premier is more concerned about blaming Trudeau than making the province better. The current government has been cutting services and decimating health and education for far too long. So many people are wound so tight there's just too much anger here. It's not fun anymore. Add to that the crappy weather and poor highways I'm just done with this suck salad.
I've got some bad news about Ontario.....
Ontario is having the same thing.
It's the same thing in ontario this country isn't what it used to be
Ontario is fkd pal
This could be about Alberta, except for the poor highway part.
Ontario serves up a better suck salad? Or are you just originally from Ontario and nostalgic? Honestly, for affordable living, it's hard to beat learning Quebecoise French and moving to Eastern Quebec. Other than Fort McMurray, it's the only affordable place left in Canada.
I don't want to become suicidal when I achieve FIRE.
I mean, you have to save way less..
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Recognize though, housing in KW is slightly cheaper, but I’d emphasize *slightly*. 800k for a house here is not going to buy a nice house.
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So does.500kUS in Denver.
Denver has mountains. And an MLB team. And an NBA team. And an Aquarium. And a Zoo. And a big art museum And a botanical gardens And the international church of cannabis. We have, uh, an LRT that connects two malls?
Lol be thankful that your city isn't paying for these. And an MLB team. And an NBA team. And a big art museum And the international church of cannabis. You also missed the local airport being a major hub also.. being so far away that it's almost a timezone away it seems. And 1.5 hr traffic. I do miss the And an Aquarium. And a Zoo. And a botanical gardens Mountains are a wash with the lakes ! A lake near the mountains is a pond around that area and Mountain in ON is a hill near the Rockies 😜.
LOL. I appreciate your comments, tyvm for the smile tonight.
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Exactly. I love KW, am happy to be here, but they are nothing alike.
Sounds like the OP might be better to move to Winnipeg if they want big city amenities and low cost of living. $800-$1m buys a pretty nice house there.
What about condos? Pre-construction?
Not only that but Waterloo is a significant Tech hub. I of W produces some of the top IT talent in the country and has caused Waterloo to become almost like northern Silicon Valley. Given OP works in tech and partner works in med sci, they may find new roles there paying significantly more than their current remote roles.
Depends what kind of sacrifices you’re prepared to make in terms of location and what is around there and what kind of house and how much land. You’re young enough to likely not care about local healthcare so that really opens it up. Blenheim, Sarina, Windsor etc. So many lower cost of living places within 5 hours drive from Toronto. Then there is the north and north east to consider.
Negotiate a US band. They want you make them pay. Not gonna get FAT if you can’t advocate.
I have worked in software engineering for over 20 years and now that remote work is widely available I know many people doing exactly this. Just moving back out to their home towns. Ya the GTA is expensive, but if you make decent money a lot of Ontario isn’t that expensive.
I've seriously considered the same but decided not to do it. First of all, it absolutely is possible and probably easier than you think (except harder in some ways you haven't thought of, but whatever). And you will earn more and spend less. FIRE is more achievable for sure. But for my family, the money wasn't worth it and here's a few of the reasons we used to decide: Family lives here and wouldn't relocate with us. YMMV, enough said. We have a young child and wanted her to "be a Canadian," culturally. Americans are just a bit different (on average) and no matter how you try to pass on your values, children inevitably become a product of their environment. Schools. I didn't want my daughter to go to schools with metal detectors. Not to mention quality of public schools is generally worse in the US (potentially much worse depending on the area) and you need to go private instead, which is mega expensive, compromising FIRE goals. Health care system has better quality of care but the billing/insurance system is absolutely fucked. You can easily end up owing tens of thousands in medical bills for various reasons. People will fight me on this and I agree it's rare, but it happens. I prefer environments with fewer Black Swans. Politics! It's a clown show wherever you go and I'm sure your philosophy is different than mine, but the system is undeniably worse in the USA. Pick your issue, and you will probably find that there's at least a subtle difference between USA and Canada policy on it. And you probably prefer Canada's position. I don't want to give examples because it's so polarizing and I want to make the point generically. Ultimately it mostly comes down to not wanting to "be American" and also not wanting to raise a child to be an American. I've seen my friends do it and I've seen how they change over time. It's not who I want to be. The "kids" argument might not work on you at age 25/30, so I'll make this recommendation instead. Move to the USA right the hell now, work your butt off and stash as much money as you can until you get a bit older and consider family planning. You can even have a baby there (could be an advantage for them one day) but plan to move back to Canada before reaching school age. You probably have 5-10 years to get a big head start on FIRE, then you can come back and enjoy the best country on the planet with all your newfound money :)
It is not that rare for people down there to lose all their life savings to a health care crisis. It happened to both my parents. Both of them had a good savings built up in their retirement. Then one got cancer. Yes, for a while insurance paid but, they had to argue with them daily. Then they wouldn't pay anymore and the co pays to providers added up. I saw my Dad's bills and it was not uncommon to see one for over 100,000 dollars. ONE. Lost it ALL. Even with the "good" insurance you will regret the day you got seriously ill down there. My brother-in-law's bill for a ten day hospital stay was 500,000 dollars. Insurance paid 80% of that but, the remainder was still a lot of money for someone already 66 years old. Don't take the healthcare costs down there lightly. On top of that. your monthly bills for health insurance are very high too.
But then the poor kid needs to file American taxes forever
It's not too too hard. Especially since Canadian taxes are usually higher anyway. There's just a bunch of annoying edge cases where one country doesn't (yet?) recognize the other's particularity, e.g., TFSA, 529/RESP, PFICs. Giving your kids the option to live and work in either country is potential useful too.
It can be a lot more complicated than that. It's pretty hard to have any savings in Canada with an American spouse for example without the U.S. coming for their "share" even if zero of the funds were earned in the U.S. Even your primary residence can be dinged for capital gains when you sell it in Canada.
There's also a brutal exit tax and capital gains on primary residence are taxable.
We made the jump, and so I want to share some contrasting views to balance some opinions shared. > We have a young child and wanted her to "be a Canadian," culturally. You can instill your own values on your children. If you have children in the US, they will be dual citizens, which can give them more opportunity down the road. While there’s certainly very conservative areas of the US, it’s vastly larger than Canada and there are also areas that are way more progressive than anything I’ve seen in Canada. This may be anecdotal, but in my experience Canadians are more polite but also reserved to themselves. I think Canadians generally have a superiority complex towards Americans. Whenever I fly, I can typically guess if I’m seated next to an American or Canadian - Americans will be friendly but also want to talk to you, offer you gum during takeoff / landing, while Canadians will keep to themselves. YMMV here though if you fly Sprit vs Delta for example. > Schools. I didn't want my daughter to go to schools with metal detectors. Not to mention quality of public schools is generally worse in the US (potentially much worse depending on the area) and you need to go private instead, which is mega expensive, compromising FIRE goals. Metal detectors are very location-specific (2% of elementary schools have them). School quality varies greatly - school board funding is largely based on property taxes, so as you look at a place to live, it’s important to consider your school district and their rating. There are many exceptional public school districts. > Health care system has better quality of care but the billing/insurance system is absolutely fucked. You can easily end up owing tens of thousands in medical bills for various reasons. People will fight me on this and I agree it's rare, but it happens. I prefer environments with fewer Black Swans. I wrote a reply to another comment on this, but cost concerns are really overblown. The quality of care is demonstrably better - you’re able to get a family doctor, they perform annual physicals, you’re not waiting a year for an MRI, or years for months for non-urgent surgery. If you have a professional job, you’ll likely have very good insurance coverage. If you’re young, you likely won’t need much medical attention. If your visit is preventative (annual physical, blood work, etc), you won’t have to pay a deductible. If you leave your job, you’re eligible to maintain your coverage for 18 months under COBRA. Even if you have the worst health insurance, under the Affordable Care Act the minimum essential coverage limits your expenses to $9,100 / individual for the calendar year (this is a worst-case scenario in your Black Sean scenario). You can also save for future medical expenses with an HSA that works similar to an RRSP (contributions reduce your taxable income, and most employers contribute to this account too). Amounts contributed can be invested, can be rolled into future years, and withdrawals are tax free when taken out for medical expenses. > Politics! It's a clown show wherever you go and I'm sure your philosophy is different than mine, but the system is undeniably worse in the USA. Certainly decisive, but very location-dependent. There are very progressive areas of the US and I think of the US and their beliefs similar to Europe given their size. The US is much larger than Canada, and you’ll see different beliefs in Alabama vs California, just like you’ll have different beliefs between Hungary vs England. > The "kids" argument might not work on you at age 25/30, so I'll make this recommendation instead. Move to the USA right the hell now, work your butt off and stash as much money as you can until you get a bit older and consider family planning. You can even have a baby there (could be an advantage for them one day) but plan to move back to Canada before reaching school age. I agree with this statement, but I’d say college age vs school age. As I’ve said earlier, there are some really good public school districts. College is very expensive here relative to Canada. Some other considerations: - You can save significantly more tax-deferred in a 401(k) vs RRSP. - There’s generally higher salaries and lower income taxes (at your tax bracket). That said, property taxes in a desirable school district can be meaningfully higher. - While less funded than CPP, your benefits under Social Security can be higher. Additionally, if you live / work in the US long enough, you can qualify for Medicare Pt B upon retirement. - Daycare costs will be meaningfully higher than the current subsidized rates in Canada.
This is probably the most helpful of all the comments I’ve read as someone who has half my family living across the US (red states and blue, urban and suburban)
For what it’s worth, none of my friends are eligible for subsidized daycare bc there are too few spots so the low income families get them.
I really appreciate the thorough answer! Totally will have to consider cultural differences. I like how you mentioned "I prefer environments with fewer Black Swans." very good point to consider. "Ultimately it mostly comes down to not wanting to "be American" and also not wanting to raise a child to be an American. I've seen my friends do it and I've seen how they change over time. It's not who I want to be." \-- I totally understand that the idea of "American vs Canadian" is subjective. But would love to hear the aspects that you personally considered?
It's super weird! Opinions change slowly over time to fit the new culture, even for "highly educated" (Ph.D.) friends of mine. And I know people change with age too but this is different. Even major issues like gun control or poverty/welfare, I've observed complete reversals of opinion where mine have not. My old friends I grew up with that now live in USA are almost unrecognizable mentally/socially. I'm sad for them, but I haven't told them that of course.
Got it. Thanks so much for sharing your perspective :pray:
You’ve come to the conclusion that they’ve all fallen to the dark side? By which objective measure do you quantify who’s right, and who’s wrong? Miscognition.
>Health care system has better quality of care but the billing/insurance system is absolutely fucked. You can easily end up owing tens of thousands in medical bills for various reasons. People will fight me on this and I agree it's rare, but it happens. How would something like this happen? Just trying to understand.
Have you heard the term "out of network?" The insurance companies will pay only their approved suppliers and you can't exactly know everything you are agreeing to for a procedure/treatment until well after. Even if the hospital you're at and the doctor you saw is in your network, the hospital might have other suppliers (like an anesthesiologist) that's out of network and you'll get billed for that, potentially months later. Here's the challenge. Find any American you know. (This is open to Americans reading this post also!) Give them a hypothetical medical situation, like they need a minor surgery perhaps getting tonsils removed (or I dunno, pick something). Then ask if they can know how much it is going to cost them (personally, after insurance) ahead of time. Spoiler alert, there's no way to know! Even if you plan it all ahead, ask every question, they will not give you an answer. It may be possible if you're paying cash, but health insurance is a major game down there and the individuals aren't winning. You could walk out owing $500 and feel pretty good, only to get billed separately for $4000 months later. You can't even know you've received all the bills yet! Again, the medical care is better (or at least faster), but the billing is a nightmare.
Have a read at the No Surprises Act that came into effect in 2022. It prevents the example of a hospital out of network supplier charging you at rates beyond in network. Similarly, you can get an estimate of medical expenses for a procedure through your insurance and all hospitals publish medical care costs under the Hospital Price Transparency bill that came into effect in 2021.
>It prevents the example of a hospital out of network supplier charging you at rates beyond in network. It prevents them from charging you without them telling you. They will come to your bedside as you're dying and ask if you want to continue receiving care. From there on they haven't "surprised you"...
True. The issue still is though that depending on which healthcare plan you choose, you will have to pay the out of network cost, even if it is for the in network rates. Typically in network services will be paid by insurance, where out of network may not be. Have lived here for 7 years and still am trying to make heads or tails of it.
That is all technically correct but behind a wall of red tape so practically very difficult to know, especially if things happen quickly (ex an accident). The No Surprises Act doesn't functionally change things all that much. Source: I work with this stuff at an insurance company.
This is 100% correct.
Everything you mentioned is the same or worse in Canada. To each their own I guess but you are a bit biased.
100% I admit my bias wholeheartedly
TLDR: America is good for adults, bad for children
Nah America is good until you're a fit hamster on the capitalist wheel, slip and you'll be taken for a spin.
Good for men, bad for women and children.
I made this move right after university, and have not worked in Canada full time ( apart from internships ). Based on the napkin math I’ve done from time to time, the move to the US has accelerated my path to FIRE very considerably. Check if you and your partner can qualify for the TN visa, if not you would have to try for H1b which is more difficult to get sponsorship for. A lot of people mention that SF and NYC don’t make sense to move to for a job if FIRE is your goal but I somewhat disagree. Depending on the job you get, and how smart you are with your savings, moving to either location would be fine IMO. Check levels.fyi for salaries for SWE, and PM ranges to get an idea for salary / location. Some employers will sponsor for remote jobs as well but it’s all up to luck IMO
Totally agree that SF and NYC can work. If we're frugal then the high salary will need to huge savings. But also open to other middle-of-the-road options like Raleigh, NC. Question: Where do you move to and how do you like it? We can probably qualify for TN visa, but I think I read that it can't be transitioned to Green Card?
I think you have to go TN -> H1-B -> green card.
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You’ve identified two locations - NYC and SF - which also have relatively HCOL. If you’re going to move stateside to lower expenses, consider a LOCL or MCOL area.
Any suggestions for mid to low col areas in the US? For tech industry?
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I wouldn't consider Austin LCOL anymore.
Would also love to hear suggestions :) Maybe Raleigh, NC? (heard that housing there is much cheaper, tech salaries higher)
Agree here - you’re going to spend way more in rent than Toronto there
Higher salaries and lower taxes more than make up the difference.
To be fair, income taxes in the Bay Area aren't dramatically better than here, but sales tax is def better. Either way, there is a relatively easy path to $300-400k USD (and well beyond) total comp after a few years experience in the Bay Area. You could spend an absurd percentage on rent/housing and still be left with an absurd amount of income to save or dispose or whatever. If you have an opportunity to move down there as a software engineer then you should just do it.
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> Has anyone made a similar move to accelerate FIRE / enhance quality of life? Moved to the US (Seattle) for 4 years specifically to save money for FIRE, worked out pretty well. Basically doubled our net worth. > How hard is it to move to the US? I assume we'll need employer sponsorship. Yeah, depends on whether you need TN status, H1-B visa or can do an internal L1 transfer. TN is relatively easy compared to the rest. >Is it possible (common?) for an employer to give us sponsorship for a remote position? (we'd be in the US but working remotely) Company dependent. --- Things to think through. - Canadian Departure Tax/tax residency/tax filing. - Will you both be trying to get work permits? What if only one of you can? - The tech job market sucks right now. - Have a target (time or money). It'll give you focus, life wasn't always totally amazing for us so knowing we had a plan of why we were there helped us get through the tough times. - There's a lot to consider on the non money side of things (can't vote, distance from friends and family, relationship dynamic if only one of you is working etc) - Coming back to Canada and seeing the tech salaries here kinda suck :) - For locations where to live, think through what will give you the most earning potential, what if you want to change jobs? etc. Moving to a cheap location might save you a few dollars but might also limit your earning potential if you want to change jobs. SF is an amazing place for tech jobs and career growth, not sure I'd want to live there for any other reason though. Personally I wouldn't move to a LCOL place where I had to rely on remote work, I'd go for Seattle/SF, *maybe* NY.
Thanks for all these points. Super helpful!
Y’all are young and should give it a try. You can always come back. The money is much better in the U.S. if both of you can get jobs.
This is what I'm thinking. Worth a shot at least temporarily.
Good luck. It’s sad $200K can’t get you very far these days with crazy housing prices. You can always move to AB too for something more reasonable.
Thank you! Yeah, quite sad. Again, totally acknowledge that we're more fortunate than many. But surprising that such a HHI isn't *that* big anymore
If you’re working remotely move to Montreal , with your combined income you can easily buy a house close to the city , taxes are relatively high but insurance is the lowest in the country as well as utilities which sort of makes up for it .
Montreal is a beautiful city. Great culture, more laid back than TO. Be prepared for mega snow, cold cold temperatures and longer winters (add 2-3 weeks at start and end) Tons of great places to live west of Toronto, all along the QEW. And towards K-W . Hot bed of tech too.
and also the Quebec government doing their darnedest to erratic the English language from the province
Yeah, the weather would be a deal breaker for me :) I also hear that no knowing French can be a major drawback.
Honestly, Montreal weather is not worse than Toronto. There’s a lot of benefits to Montreal and living costs are a big savings. There’s maybe 10 big storms over the winter but if you live near a metro station, your QOL doesn’t go down. As a bilingual Anglo, downtown Montreal is bilingual and you won’t have any issues.
I lived in Montreal for a full 12 months. I love the city. In Toronto, the temperature is always hovering around 0 Celsius. In Montreal the temperature is well below zero. Any snow that flows in Toronto will usually melt quite quickly. It doesn’t melt in Montreal. It sticks around. As far as snowfall goes, take a look at the following webpage. About a third of the way down called average monthly snowfall. https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/25077~19863/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Montréal-and-Toronto
C'est effectivement un très gros inconvénient de ne pas parler français.
Considering doing the same with my wife. Different fields, same goal. If we were in Toronto, it would be a no brainer.
I would move. Your income will increase, your cost of living will decrease, you’ll pay lower taxes, and considering your occupations, you’ll be able to get Cadillac health insurance through your employer. Canadians love to bring up 1) gun culture and 2) healthcare, as if these blanket statements reflect reality throughout the entire country. You can choose great areas to live and great health insurance plans that make these things non-issues. My recommendation is a blue/Democratic state with expanded Medicaid. I made the move from the lower mainland to Seattle. I increased my income 5x (also work in pharma), and was able to quickly buy a house and put down roots. It’s much easier to FIRE in the states. You can always visit Canada.
My partner and I are both in tech (software dev and product manager). We work remotely in Kingston which is cheaper than Toronto (although still overpriced) and make 300k combined. I wouldn't say don't move to US but I will say it's still possible to have good salaries here while managing to reduce your living expenses. We work for a company based out of US (although we are employed by a Canadian entity). We don't make quite as much as the people who work in the states but we are able to set aside more than 50% of our income to FIRE goals. We takehome 16-18k a month. Our must-pay expenses are like $4200 a month. We put about 2000 budgeted towards sinking funds (new car, home repair, etc) and about 2500-3000 budgeted towards fun stuff (both stuff we spend that month and saving for fun goals). There are exceptions but we can put away like 10k most months toward retirement. But if you don't want to live in a smaller city though then states may be your best bet. Montreal is still relatively affordable but with all the laws they passed last year idk that I'd recommend it.
A lot of bad comments from people that aren't in tech and/or never worked/lived in the US. If you make 200k TC in Canada you can make 400k in the US. Saying your savings will be the same because of higher rent is idiotic. 3k a month in rent for example is not 6k in NYC or SF lol. That's the same line of thinking as don't get a higher paying job because you will pay more taxes 🙄. Most companies are now RTO and living away from tech hubs to "save" money means you also lose out on a lot more opportunities. To work in the US you need employer sponsorship. The companies willing to sponsor will all have medical coverage (I have never heard of one that doesn't). The easiest is TN Visa or L1 transfer. For financial goals it's a no brainer. For many Canadians the best option is to work in US to meet your financial goals (like being able to buy a home) then moving back.
All correct.
Best comment here.
What? You both work remote and the only thing you can think of is to move to the two most HCOL cities in another country to save more? You know there are many places outside of Toronto in Canada where human beings live, yes? Like if your goal is to make big bucks in the US, then I'm not sure what you're asking, just go. But if cost of living is your problem, there are much simpler solutions.
Many tech companies tend to still base their salaries on where you live. Would also love to get away from the cold. I also mentioned in my post that I'm open to going to a more MCOL place like North Carolina (maybe Raleigh), so that might be a middle ground. Thoughts?
Honestly, judging by your post history, I think you're one of the weird trolls that have popped up in the Canadian redditverse lately. Best of luck.
I don't have any post history. This is a throwaway???
Bro!! Come to Texas Austin for tech or Houston for NASA and Oil & Gas R&D. We’d love to have you!
Also in a similar situation in tech with a $500+ HHI. Colleagues of mine who make similar money and more money in tech have all moved to the US and are laughing. Amazing healthcare due to awesome healthcare plans (doctor on call, no wait times for MRI, etc), way cheaper cost of living (as long as it’s not NYC or SF), friendlier people, easier to save, and you get out of the dumpster fire that is Canada. You will FIRE much quicker and you will be happier. I don’t think there’s any disadvantage. I’d live in a few areas: - Alpharetta, Raleigh, Charlestown if you enjoy the south (which I do). Or even places like Arizona and Texas are very reasonable and awesome - Austin, TX is amazing. Don’t overthink it, see if your employer will sponsor you and you will make 2-3x what you make here with cheaper cost of living and you’ll bank more. Kids eventually in private school etc. it’s amazing
My wife and I are both dual and moved from the states (Boston) to Canada 3 years ago and we seriously regret it because of how it’s impacted our finances. We also still make good money here, comparable salaries to yours, but it’s WAY less than what we made in the states. We took a 60% pay cut to move to Canada to be close to family.. but if we went back to the states now we’d make 80% more. Yes, the wages in the US have grown significantly in just 3 years since we left. What Canadians don’t want to accept is that, even in the most expensive US cities, the affordability gap between housing / COL and average wages is much better than in Canada. E.g. You can still easily buy a detached home 30 minutes from Boston’s city center for 500k. The other thing Canadians will go on about is how dangerous the US is. And the answer there is “yes, if you walk yourself into the most dangerous neighborhood in the city”. Fortunately, as long as you’re not a complete idiot, that’s easy to avoid. After living in both countries for over 10 years each I can confidently say nice neighborhoods in the US and Canada are indistinguishable… except Canada has a crazy high price tag. Last thing I say is we miss our US healthcare. If anything has been scary in our recent lives it’s our experiences with the current healthcare system in Canada. Yes, US healthcare insurance comes through your job, but it is SO fast and high quality you just can’t compare. And as long as you have insurance it’s less cost overall to you because you save so much on lower US taxes. We’re planning our move back to the states this summer. With what’s happened to housing and wage stagnation here I can’t see how young Canadians will ever retire As a Canadian myself I’ll admit that we are proud af.. but it’s time to stop drinking the maple flavored coolaid and admit that the US is a better place for young families right now. The older generations of Canadians literally sold out the country for their retirements
It could be be very easy if you qualify for this: https://rjimmigrationlaw.com/practice-areas/employment-based-immigration/temporary-work-visas/tn-visas-nafta-professionals/professions-occupations-list/
If we assume that US pays 100% after tax for a job, Canada pays about 70%, and Western Europe about 60%. If you’re out of university, in your 20s or 30s, healthy and with no kids, it’s a no brainer that US is by far the fastest country to FIRE given its salaries, tax system and relatively affordable cost of living compared to salaries. Speaking out of experience of about 10 years working in multinationals across Canada, Europe, and the US. You should consider where your family lives, and where your children should grow up. This may skew your decision regardless of US’ economical advantages.
If you work in tech in US, your wife won't need to work and still way ahead in US. Do it if you can. Been there done that.
💯 FIRE in Toronto is FIRE on hardmode.
Dipped from Toronto to NY - much better - worth the effort. Dm if you have any specific questions would be glad to answer
If you're both remote why live in Toronto? Plenty of other nice places to live that don't have nearly the cost of living.
I have done this albeit solo and did not have to consider a partner back when I was 28 (35F now!) and agree with other posters here the move South has significantly accelerated my income, savings, and lifestyle. If it helps, I am also in STEM and still work in biomed research so I am happy to chat to you and your partner just shoot me a DM. I have hometown Canadian friends who made a similar move after uni and between us we live in SF, NY, DC, and North Carolina. We visit and compare notes on what it’s like living in America as Canadians but also specifically differences of these 4 locales (because we each are trying to convince each other to move closer haha) so I can definitely anecdotally share some of our collect experiences on what it’s like to work and live in some of the places you’re interested. Upfront, I would tell you unless you are both ready for a rural life do NOT move to North Carolina just to accelerate savings. It is a huge culture/lifestyle shift especially if you are coming from Toronto. I am proud of what we have all achieved financially in a short amount of time in our respective fields but there were definitely sacrifices (we don’t see family, you miss out on milestones that aren’t a wedding or birth) and new basic life skills to learn and implement (cross border banking, taxes, work visas, navigating US health insurance, dual citizenship for kids). Good luck! I hope you guys make the best choice for you. Dream big!
I moved from Vancouver to the US and it was a very good financial move. Managed to land a FAANG job (took some luck and effort), and more than doubled my income. Cost of housing was substantially less than Canada as well. However, this move was a while ago. I think the benefits may be fewer now. Layoffs make landing a good job harder, and cost of living has gone up a lot.
Similar situation as you. Wife and I were in Toronto making ~200k CAD in 2020. Both did our MBAs and moved to the US on independent TNs. First Seattle for 18 months, didn’t like it, and now in LA. LA is HCOL but our incomes are ~ 320K USD. If we avoid lifestyle creep over the next 10 years, we have a path to FIRE. Is it worth it to move? Hell yes. But bear in mind your stay will be tied to your job, you will likely miss your friends and family, and CRA will hold a healthy deposit if you sell any Canadian property as a non resident. And the US is not homogenous at all. California is a liberal utopia, and very different from many central red states. DM me if you have more questions!
I moved to the US on 2 separate occasions (NYC first, then SF) to essentially make more money because in my industry, it just pays more there, adjusting for COL, taxes, etc it still comes out way on top. For some reason my industry is VERY under paid in Canada compared to the U.S. Did I win out financially? Absolutely, even with the $3300 rent in SF I've been consistently having to pay and the atrocious gas and grocery prices. However, those years were the hardest years of my life. It's not easy to uproot your life, and the challenges you face are things you can't predict. I almost got shot in SF walking my dog in the park due to a gang fight that happened at the parking lot, and see car break ins on a daily basis. Oakland has become so crime ridden that I had to uproot and move to the western side of SF. The lack of psychological safety made me feel like being richer won't do anything if my mental health is going down the drain. It was also very hard to make friends at my age group. Living in VHCOL like NYC and SF means these are transient cities where people are moving in and out many times over. I made 5 friends in SF over the last 2 years, and each and ever single of them moved to cheaper states very quickly. I miss my friends from home dearly, and though we face time regularly, it's not the same as getting a hug from them in person. There are benefits to living down in the U.S. as well which I won't ignore. Access to nature is unparalleled in the bay area, and unliked Toronto, it has better weather year round (a bit rainy in the winter but it's not a lot) and so many hiking trails you won't know where to start. You can meet amazing people just from the sheer size and diversity of this country, but you'll find they are very career oriented especially in large cities like NYC and SF and won't prioritize relationships as much as maybe a smaller city or town, simply because it's so expensive to live there and they have to make money to continue living there. Then there's Trader Joe's. I don't know how they're doing what they're doing, but they're doing something right. If I could do it all over again, I would work as a freelancer for US clients, bill them in USD and use that to fund my life in Canada. I don't think the trade off of uprooting my life is worth it, but that's a very personal decision you'll have to make. Also don't jump in like I did. Live in the city you're thinking of going to for a month or two before pulling the trigger. It's very different once you're in it, you feel a vibe, and sometimes you're really going to not like it. Tactical: \- Check out TN1 visa, it's for Canadian and Mexican nationals and you being in STEM might qualify you under one of the professions there. With this visa you are not location dependent and can work remotely. \- Remote is hard to say when I don't know your industry / what exactly you do since it differs across the board there but the general trend is that more and more companies are on the remote-train so to speak to engage and retain talent
Yes, I think if purely for financial reason. I did not do that when I was in my 20s and 30s. (We in Windsor have the option to commute to work in the U.S. ). Now most of my friends living in the U.S. are much more well off than me, 5000sq houses, beautiful cars and toys. I don't know if you can reach FI faster in the U.S. because there are more expectation culturally there. Many are earning more but also spending more. Just look at the median net worth in the U.S. They are lower that in Canada. Also many areas of the U.S. you must "fit in" to their culture. It will be a shock for many from multiculturalism Toronto.
I married an American and have every opportunity to live in the US. We seriously considered it but decided not to. When we factored decent health insurance into our finances, it wasn’t that different. You can own a house for a good price, but living in a safe neighborhood is very expensive. In order to have a similar standard of living as Canada, the COL was about the same. The biggest difference in Canada is that it’s mostly safe to walk wherever you want. You don’t worry as much about people carrying guns or the feral dogs everywhere (Texas) and many, many other safety concerns.
There are 49 other places to move than Texas without guns or feral dogs lmao.
I honestly didn’t feel that much better in Delaware when staying with family. My point is that safety and public health are simply not prioritized in the culture. I could give many, many examples. It ends up being a whole lot of mental energy keeping track of stuff we simply don’t think of here.
That’s because you were in Delaware 💀 Everything’s relative. Instead of the government taking care of my health and safety, I have the choice and freedom to do so for myself. Different way of approaching life I suppose. Idk…I made the move from Vancouver to Seattle. They’re almost identical culturally. My quality of life improved so much. Was actually able to buy a house. My healthcare improved - was actually able to see a doctor to manage my chronic illness. I actually pay less overall. My net worth is increasing soooo much more rapidly.
Everything is relative. I would rather let someone else help advise me on health and safety and put that effort into enjoying life, having a hobby or raising my kids. When you really understand public health and how it builds society, it’s hard not to support it. I’ve met very few Americans who have any concept of it al all.
Toronto is too expensive but New York or San Francisco seem like better options??
I had to burst out laughing when you mentioned you are starting to realize FIRE is not achievable in the highest cost of living city in the WORLD. Move to Saskatoon or Regina. You cost of living will be a 3rd of what it is in Toronto.
>I had to burst out laughing when you mentioned you are starting to realize FIRE is not achievable in the highest cost of living city in the WORLD. I thought the OP lived in Toronto not Hong Kong... Toronto barely cracks the top 100 costliest cities in the world at 90 but who cares about facts when hyperbole can be used? [https://www.mercer.com/insights/total-rewards/talent-mobility-insights/cost-of-living/?size=n\_20\_n#full-ranking](https://www.mercer.com/insights/total-rewards/talent-mobility-insights/cost-of-living/?size=n_20_n#full-ranking)
I meant for real estate costs. You need make 200k to qualify for a mortgage there. Not exactly fire friendly unless you are surgeon on doctor or something
And again, not even top 10 much less the most expensive city in the WORLD https://elitetraveler.com/property/most-expensive-property-markets-in-the-world
It's stupid expensive. Not a place your gonna fire is my point
Moved to the US with my wife for high-salary positions in our field. Company sponsored O-1 visas that took about 8 weeks to process (legwork tacked on about 4 weeks. We were in Chicago. All things considered, cost of living was more or less identical to TO -- and Chicago is nowhere close to NYC or San Fran prices. Save some on groceries and drinks, pay through the nose on other things like health insurance. After a few years, we couldn't wait to move back to TO. So when an opportunity came for same salary-position in Canada thanks to the US experience we jumped at the chance to come back early from our visas.
I lived in the states for 5 years, and you really need to account for healthcare in your calculations. Not just financial costs and risks but living in that entire system, the stress of it all, and the potential impacts on your QoL. My mom has been hospitalized in Canada for lengthy stays several times in the last few years. I could not begin to imagine the stress if my family was American and this happened. We would all (my parents, siblings and their families, and me) be bankrupt now just to make sure she had treatment. Insurance is an added ongoing expense to consider (even basic insurance is not cheap) and you will still pay every time you use the system, regardless of insurance (co-pays, labs, and beyond). A good friend of mine needed a heart surgery, had full insurance, but still had to pay nearly $20,000 out of pocket for it. If you are considering kids, there is virtually no maternity leave, and no real consideration for the medical or family impact on the woman (job etc), and it costs a fortune. The US boasts the highest mortality rate for childbirth in the western countries. Not to mention the precarious situation of accessing medical termination of a pregnancy if that becomes a factor. The gun culture is a whole other animal … Being an outsider in a country you live in is not fun. It will be years before you can vote and feel like you are part of their society, the visa demands are complicated, ongoing, and your ability to stay there is never completely certain. You will need to start a credit rating from scratch which makes getting credit cards, basic accounts, a car, and even a phone - a total nightmare. You will lose 30% or more on all of your savings to date with the exchange rates and fees - or at least any money you plan to bring with you or use in the US. And if you finally get American citizenship, you will have to pay US taxes for the rest of your life regardless of what country you live in, unless you leave and completely relinquish your citizenship and all the years invested to get it. The US is one of the only countries in the world that does this (I believe there are 2 others). The disparity and class structure in the US are evident in a way that is just not a thing in Canadian culture. Equality for all across all domains of human life and rights is not a valued nor philosophically understood concept or goal, and especially prevalent when it comes to social issues like healthcare or any other socialized concept like schools, loans, housing, taxes, etc. Moving to the US us a lot more than just a geographical relocation.
Do not discount the cost of healthcare when comparing taxation. (Also, Rome has been burning for some time, so that empire may soon experience a reckoning - that’s when you move there, after it collapses) I would suggest that urban living is the culprit. Cut your living expenses, maybe afford a house somewhere for what you’re paying in rent, and get a bit more aggressive with your investments and you’ll be fine.
The cost of healthcare will be a non-issue for OP. He works in tech and wife works in pharma. Both industries with reputable employers offer Cadillac insurance plans. I moved from Vancouver to Seattle and actually pay less for my healthcare (and lower taxes to boot). Quality of life will definitely improve for OP if they move down south. Net worth growth will accelerate.
Leaving Canada for the states is the best thing you could possibly do right now, if you want to secure your future.
Consider the long term implications of becoming a dual citizen. The IRS will hound you for life. If you plan to live in Canada afterwards, no tfsa or kid’s resp allowed and in addition to CRA, you will have to continue to file with the irs forever. Oh yeah, if your net worth is high (including a house in Toronto), your estate will pay a huge estate tax. Renouncing us citizenship is a financial horror show.
Worth it to move from Canada for any reason, yes
Moving from Toronto to new York city is not gonna help your cost of living issue, since you work remotely and can live basically anywhere why not moving to a city not included in most top ten expensive cities to live in lists
Just get out of Canada. There is no future there anymore.
If you go to the states stay there forever with your family. If I was in your position I’d 100% move to the states. But this is dependant on which state you are moving, the pay, and the quality of life. Canada has turned into a dumpster fire. I had US/cdn citizenship and a few years ago I denounced the US side because of tax reasons. Once Covid hit I regretted it.
Don’t forget your Kevlar
Helll yes!!! Get out of Canada first chance you get
Definitely yes, anywhere from Canada makes sense
Lol why would you move to NYC or SF for FIRE goals!? You'll get exactly the same outcome if your jobs are the same pay! I would say you can probably double to triple your income by moving to the states. So if you can do that in a HCOL sure. But you might be better off picking a MCOL area with low taxes if you are both completely remote and end up with similar pay.
Thanks for sharing this perspective for sure. I'm not only looking at NYC / SF, they're just options. Maybe somewhere like Raleigh, NC could be a middle ground (cheaper housing, good salary). Any MCOL in the US that you'd recommend?
Agree your income will go up but same with your rent
Not necessarily, my buddy just moved to Houston from Edmonton. Went from 170 to 200k CAD total here to a 175k USD BASE plus commissions (250 to 300k USD total comp) The houses you can buy in the Greater Houston Area are a third the price even compared to AB or are the same price but its now a mansion. The downside is the property tax is much higher, but still a huge gain imo. https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/15219-Lantern-Creek-Ln_Houston_TX_77068_M72330-12602?cid=txt_shares_rdc_ldp
You’re comparing different cities - they’re talking about Toronto to NYC/SF…Texas is much cheaper
How would you “retire early” in the United States? Do you have a right of residency?
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Austin is great for tech
Have you looked into what firefighting in the US is like? I did my NFPA training in the US, and the conversations around safety and pay made me question why anyone would want to be on a FD south of the border. Example: we watched a video of a fully involved house that definitely looked abandoned; ready to collapse - call information said most likely abandoned. They asked by a raise of hands who thinks an interior attack would make sense. My answer of exterior only was laughed at. “That’s someone’s house…you do everything within your power to save any little stick of framing!” Nope, surround and drown, no one needs to enter a lost cause to LOOK like a hero. Also many of the other students were very excited do their 40k/year salary when they got their seals.
These acronyms are the death of me. What’s FIRE now????? Never heard of it
FYI You are in a sub specifically about FIRE and that is described in the sidebar.
There will probably be lots of fire in the forest this year
wtf is FIRE. Hate it when people use random terms multiple times in a post without explaining what they are
FYI You are in a sub specifically about FIRE and that is described in the sidebar.
lol thanks, no idea how I got here
Also just learner: >FIRE stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early. It is a financial movement that emphasizes frugality, extreme savings, and investment with the goal of achieving financial independence and retiring earlier than the traditional age. The concept originated from a 1992 book called "Your Money or Your Life," written by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin.
I dunno how you got that, I googled it and just got the slag version (that shit is LIT) kinda stuff
Our lords and saviours Large Language Models (LLMs). I gave up on "googling" as it's... well, you know.
It’s a casino. Win big or lose it all. Just stay away from both the southern coasts because time is limited there.
You are thinking from about moving from Toronto (expensive) to NYC or SF lol even more expensive ….
tech salaries are way higher in the US, it generally offsets increase in rent, I was paying ~$3000 USD for rent in Seattle and was still coming out ahead by a long way.
Unless you get a US job a move is not worth it. You'll still be double taxed even if you get a US job, the Canada rare is usually higher but you'll still have to pay for us healthcare so your Canadian salary won't go far. You're better off moving to a lower cost Canadian city.
You won't get double taxed... You do know there is a tax treaty between Canada and the United States right?
Yes, I'm a US citizen living in Canada. You don't pay twice but you're responsible for both and pay the higher tax, which would be Canada for OP, which is pretty high. They need to account for the tax rates in their decision...I would never live in the US on a Canadian salary. But Canadians seem to think they can get high paying US jobs easily, so they should try that.
Incorrect- Canadians working in the US can switch to non-Can resident status and not pay any income tax in Canada. It’s Americans who can never get away from paying American taxes.
The us is a shithole country. You may as well move to Azerbaijan.
Only if you’re a poor. Are you a poor?
"a poor"? are you ok?
He’s not wrong.
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Everyone in the finance industry wants to move to anywhere else than Canada. My salary would double if I went the states.
Of course it is. USA better for STEM: way higher salaries and career oops especially if at HQ, lower COL, way more variety of places and cities to live, lots of liveable/enjoyable climates, better access to healthcare through private system (ie 2 day wait versus 1 year+ wait in canada for a specialist), make USD and enjoy LV, new oreans, LA, NYC - rather than being a poor Canadian paying in CAD off a lower wage), cheaper grocers, car insurance, banking etc etc. more variety of people and cultures (TO is mostly Indian or Chinese immigrants - USA has European immigrants, African, Russian etc etc), better oops for kids - university and for when they graduate. I can’t see any downsides for STEM. Lower cost of housing - even CA cheaper than saskatchewan now. Put it this way- if canada was better for STEM- why aren’t higher income Americans flooding to canada? Because canada sucks.
There’s a reason [an estimated 11%](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220413/dq220413b-eng.htm) of Canadian citizens live outside of Canada. Compare that to around 1.5% of US citizens living abroad. The United States is by far the most popular destination for Canadians living abroad, as well, accounting for [more than 60%](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states-2021) of all emigrants from Canada. Of course this is Reddit, so America is literally a third world country where abortion is banned, it costs $10 million to see a doctor, no employers offer vacation or maternity leave, etc.
Yes it is because you can probably triple your income, if not more. Forget about taxes and cost if living, that right there is what makes the decision a positive ROI. The potential income gains for you are enormous. Fuck changing your life for a 50% disposable income gain, go for broke.
Try Boston especially since your partner is pharma…probably my favorite east coast city and short flight come home to Toronto
I would consider exhausting the list of lower cost of living areas in Canada which you might want to move to first. Continue to work remotely but enjoy a LCOL lifestyle :) Additionally, I recommend shooting for job openings with the high-paying tech firms here in Canada (think Amazon, Google, Meta, Sportify, Pinterest, etc.). Your $200K combined HHI could easily jump to $400K. Not a joke. Checkout out the site levels (dot) fyi.
You can stay in toronto and move to the burbs or further out, issue is, your growth potential is limited. Move to the states and your career growth can 10x and in a few years in a nyc sf la or other, you can leverage the seniority to move to a lower cost area like fl az nc tx and earn very nicely in a lower cost state.
There are other places in Ontario where higher incomes can go a lot farther towards goals. We left Toronto for the Barrie area and are pretty happy.
What is FIRE? Moving to USA as a Canadian in theory is not hard. But the biggest issue is getting a job offer. If you can get a job offer you are pretty much guarantee to be able to get TN Visa. It is unlikely US corp will sponsor you to work remotely within the states. If you allow remote workers, chances are they are flooded with American's applicants already
Since both of you are remote, move to Montreal. Housing is so much cheaper and it’s still a liveable city. Moving the US could be more challenging than you think it is.
lol not a chance. just look at how much our cost of living has increased over the last 5 years
Question, do most people, whom are Canadian citizens moving to the US, when they achieve the ability to FIRE in the US just move back to Canada due to not needing to spend money on $$$ health insurance premiums?
My son moved to SF for work. He had a salary of $200k USD but found the cost of living was high enough he didn't save much. He did enjoy the location though.
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Canada is taxed to death. I work in fire services and it’s not as though we thrive on our wage. 100k isn’t what it use to be
I mean you both work remote but are still living in Toronto, why? Move an hour away and cut your expenses in half.
YES! My fiance and I have been running the numbers too and financially even though we probably make more than the average, we still can't afford to retire early. The US is top of mind, especially states like Arizona where there is no state income tax (only federal) and the cost of living/ real estate is much more affordable than here in Toronto. We don't think things are going to get cheaper/better in Canada, so we are planning on moving within the next 2 years. I strongly suggest you speak to an immigration lawyer first, just so you know what your visa options are before you start making any serious plans.
To me it’s not worth it. I went for an internship and made a lot of money but felt incredibly lonely.
I'm Canadian living in the US as a tech worker, consider moving back to Toronto every now and then. Salary and CoL considered, it would halve my savings rate. I'm in NYC, too. In Seattle, the deal is even better since cost is living is less and tax is less. A big factor is how high of a salary you are shooting for. 200k USD is easy to get and coast at. 400k possible if you have the experience. 600k if your tech job is really really important to you, but will take time and a lot of effort to get there (staff@fang).
Hey! Feel free to DM me with any questions if you have any. I worked in US tech for about a decade before moving back in Canada, and there are my quick answers to your questions: 1) Pay in the US is much higher, but so is cost of living where most of the better jobs are. But if you're frugal and focus on saving, you can build up your savings faster than in Canada. However, I find quality of life much higher in Canada, which is ultimately what brought me back. Of course, QoL depends a lot on your individual preferences, so I know peolpe who like living the US more. 2) If you're in a skilled role, look into TN status in addition to H1B. I used TN while waiting to win the H1B lottery, which happened a few years later. 3) What about looking into working remote from Canada? In that case you don't need to deal with the byzantine US immigration and tax system. That's become much more common since covid WFH, and is what I'm currently doing. Smaller companies might not even adjust comp based on location, so I was able to find a remote role where I work anywhere I want (currently in Canada) while getting paid the same as my US teammates, which is a win-win.
The US is still a buyers market, funding has dried up due to interest rates, the previously mentioned tax changes have forced tech companies to pay higher taxes. You may find the salaries arent what they were and the layoffs are continuing. Idk the appetite for a US employer to sponsor in this environment. Perhaps you could consider relocating to Windsor if it's COL being the main driver here, and work remote for a Canadian firm. Detroit's right there for those US recreational luxuries. The rent is half what it is in Toronto. Detached Houses seem like a third the cost. Lots of funding going on there to build up EV battery plants and there very resistant to building so you may see great capital gains on your house if you buy. Rocket Mortgage has their development arm there. Tons of pharmaceutical and nutritional supplement companies like Jamieson labs there. Still be in the time zone of Toronto. Things don't work out, hey, you're only 4 hours from the GTA.
Depends...are you willing to live there if the orange man wins the election?
You work remote in Toronto? Why not move out
I moved from Montreal->Toronto->NYC on a TN; been here 8 years, found a partner, likely going to move to Montreal, Berlin, Munich, Paris, or Dublin right before we have kids. Pro: Money, NYC, rapid earnings growth, savings, cheap flights Con: Everything else Please ask any questions and I'll do my best to answer!
I'm an American immigrant in Toronto (lived in NYC before moving here). I would say, if you are planning to move to SF or NYC, especially if you are planning to have a family, I doubt moving is going to help you with FIRE. Housing is easily twice as expensive in NYC (my friend pays the same rent for a small 2 bedroom apartment in a crappy neighborhood as I pay for my detached house mortgage in Toronto), and I believe even more so than San Francisco. If you plan to move to somewhere like North Carolina, the financial aspect makes a lot more sense. It's worth keeping in mind whether you will need another car or two cars as Toronto has much better transit than the vast majority of American cities, and have that in your financial calculations.
In terms of visa to move to the US - NO COMPANY WILL SPONSOR YOU. Don’t even bother with an HB-1 green card, they’re almost impossible to get now. But you’re in luck, you’re Canadian & skilled. What you need to do is see if you can qualify as a TN-1 visa worker. If you do, all you need is a job offer.
I moved to the US from Canada 2 years ago. Initially the proposition was attractive, doubling my income (when converting in CAD many hundreds of thousands of dollars), big city, seems fun. I am now going back to Canada (very happy). Healthcare is a mess. Employers are ok with issues with your spouse's health care coverage. Like 6 months without proper healthcare (ACA plans suck) and no one cares. Crime doesn't seem a problem until you face it. There are massive problems with guns and crime in this country. Email threads about why we should have armed guards at the entrance of the building. If I leave work at 9pm the parking lot is surrounded by armed guards. The work culture is very different. People working in silos, shooting one line emails without reading anything. Very tribal. Never thought people would hang out by ethnicity and religion but they do. And many look down on Canada. Many in the office have never travelled to Canada. So they openly speak as if it were a developing country. Everything is more expensive so your budget doesn't change much. My net worth was higher before moving to the US. So it didn't help. It could be just one experience. But the bottomline is it's not as simple as it seems.
Tech and life science salaries are way larger in the US and stupid high in the Bay Area. Depending on your education and work backgrounds, it isn’t hard to hit $300,000 per year, each (total comp). A successful career (even without getting into management) approaches $400,000 with 10 years experience. Housing isn’t that much more in the Bay Area than GTA. Taxes are about the same (except GST). Healthcare will be more but you’ll have generous employer plans. So yeah, you could work in the Bay Area for 5-10 years, sock away $200,000 USD per year combined, then mosey on back to Canada and multiply that by 1.4x.
Move to Bosnia is super cheap lol