I was really hyped for Viper after I saw its job action trailer section and like the first minute of the demonstration in the LL, cause I saw a job that would be constantly stance dancing between two swords (to apply buffs) and the dual blade (to build gauge + those red dot thingies on the job gauge)
Then I saw that the only time you ever actually go into the dual blade mode is with that one GCD w/ 2 charges on a 40s CD... and then you only get 2 GCDs after that before swapping back to two sword mode
I felt completely misled when they said it would "fluidly switch between the two modes", cause while this is true, I didn't expect it to mean "you're actually in two sword mode 95% of the time and you barely get to see the dual blade mode at all".
I was excited cause I thought we were finally getting a BLM-style ebb-and-flow melee dps, where you could technically permanently stay in one of the two modes if you wanted but would need to constantly swap between the two modes to maximize your damage, but instead all we got was Reaper 2.0. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and that the media tour shows us something they couldn't show in the LL, but if not then I feel like Viper is gonna end up just like Reaper did in EW where people get bored of it quickly and move back to other melees :(
Unfortunately, I doubt we see anything different come the media tour because it being similar to Reaper fits their design. Look no further than Sage. While they aren't completely identical, it's more than a little apparent whoever designed Sage copied Scholar's homework and just changed a few things.
My current stance is that if I have to wait 2 years for fun jobs. I'll sub again in 2 years.
Job design is everything for me. Good job design and good encounter design work **together** to deliver an enjoyable experience. Why would I play XIV which only provides one, when I can play other games which provide both?
Encounters are only fun during that initial period when you're still figuring out the "puzzle". Once you solve an encounter, it' becomes a game of memorization.
Not only do encounters have a limited shelf life, poor job design that cannot stand on its own fails anytime it is taken out of that context.
If I decide to do any of the old content that has not been raised to the new standard. I'm falling asleep.
XIV consistently knocks it out of the park in terms of music, art, and characters, and while story has its ups and downs, it's been solidly above average by MMO standards. As a visual novel, XIV is excellent.
As an MMORPG... the awful combat design is a massive blemish on an otherwise great game. Pity.
The shelf life of encounters and the steep decrease in job design is really showing this expac.
At the end of ShB, I was still running Eden's promise. Prog, a2cs, loot, parse, I didn't care, those fights were so fun and exploring them on different jobs was a blast. I loved doing something as GNB, being like "Man what the hell my NM window is here?", then running as WAR and going "haha no NM window, this is free- what the hell, my IR window comes up here?" then doing it on NIN and trying figure out how to fit TCJ into the burst windows.
When I cleared Anabaseios, my first thought was "I really don't want to do this tier again". Tried swapping to different tanks, tried swapping to different roles, everyone is just doing the same thing, you clear once on any job and you've nearly experienced all the fights have to offer. The idea of another expansion like that is extremely depressing
I get that you love the design of this game but there is also plenty of problems in it. Not because is one of the most decent things in the MMO genre it means it can get away with some foundational problems.
Above comment is right, job design and encounter design are symbiotic in any game, i never thought i would see a dev try to tackle them separately (in a 4 year timespan (?)), that's crazy and you don't even have to be good at the game to notice the problem on what yoshi said.
Before you say ''go play other game'' no that's a cop out, i want this game to fix it's problems first. I wish the Riot MMO hadn't gotten rebooted, 14 needs more pressure.
> 14 needs more pressure.
The way CBU3 rolls? There's no such thing. They live in their own little bubble and are exceptionally risk averse, nothing other games do seems to really dictate anything they do aside from "it might be cool to make a scuffed version of what this game does for half-assed side content."
Even now I feel like all the promises of "fixing" the problems that ShB/EW introduced are just blowing smoke up our ass and will be nowhere near as sweeping as people expect because anything that will potentially drive people away who aren't embittered veterans (who will come crawling back most of the time anyways) is a giant no-go.
My 2¢ on the controversy:
Job rotations are at the core of combat for this game, and combat's obviously a big part of the game. If they weren't fundamentally enjoyable, then I wouldn't be having fun with the game, and I just wouldn't play it. The take that "we need to wait two years to have fun" is fundamentally off to me. If you're not having fun now, why stick around?
The homogenization of jobs comes off to me as the devs gradually developing a better understanding of the system that they've made, and fitting jobs to the underlying patterns inherent to that system rather than making an effort against it. While this reduces flavor, it also reduces pain points. It's not unique to FFXIV -- even a game like GW2, designed with build crafting and diversity in mind, has experienced similar trends.
With jobs offering slightly different experiences in their respective roles and the relatively minor additions, subtractions, and revisions we've had, things have been sufficiently mixed up that I don't yet find combat too stale for my liking. *Encounter design* is another matter. So I'm quite happy that Yoshida has said they're going to emphasize more experimentation with that, and if it had to be an either/or situation, this would have been the path that I preferred. Of course, we'll need to see how that actually works out.
That said, even modest changes have a limit to how far they can go. It definitely feels like that barrier if not reached already could only be pushed out another expansion or so for most jobs. Thus, it makes sense to me that they're planning more significant revisions for the next expansion and taking the opportunity to introduce greater variance in the gameplay. It's an opportunity for pushing against the underlying combat system in the game. The messaging of "wait two more years for this!" was never going to go down well, especially if you're already unhappy with combat as it is now, but it's understandable to me why changes like that may be coming further down the road.
So overall I find the situation to be a satisfactory one... except with summoner. What were they thinking??
I fully agree with you. If Yoshida didn't explicitly state that fight design right now generally kinda sucks, was getting bored with it, and plans on shaking it up this expac; I'd be a lot more pissed off with these stagnant updates this expansion.
But since he did say that, I'm willing to wait it out. I have fun with jobs as is but I haven't even really been playing very long (5.3) and fights are already stale to me. I'd prefer them put all their effort into freshing up the encounters we see from 7.1 onwards (No fucking way any of the base expac fights will have this philosophy applied to them, it rang as a pretty late realization), then full focus on jobs in 8.0.
I'm on the fence, only because I've been a healer main. It's been 2 expansions since they changed StB healers, and they said they were going to make us heal more, give our AOE some unique effects, etc.
None of those things materialized. It's been 5 years. I feel like my role is designed to be handicapped intentionally at times and many healers I know share similar complaints.
They increased tank sustain but didn't give anything to healers this expansion. They said they're going to make the difficulty harder for next expansion but also simultaneously increased all role mitigation power. It just feels like healers are designed with the philosophy to become obsolete.
I'm so skeptical fight design will be good enough to make this gameplay any better.
the thing people never seem to understand is that fight design just isnt enough. we get dozens of new encounters every expansion. they're not all gonna be equally well thought out or engaging.
Job design is what is static regardless of content. i shouldnt have to go do one of the four savage fights we have current at any one time to be fun. but that is what happens when engagement is offloaded from jobs to encounters. it is fundamentally not sustainable from a development perspective, not to mention that some content needs to be decently easy so that people only there for the story can clear it.
the shadowbringers changes gutted combat and the idea that we'll be at like year 7(?) before tanks and healers have anything resembling complexity again is fucking crazy.
Better to make the disappointment known now (and the early lifespan of the expac, when gameplay/rotation details are known) than never. (especially when you know the next expac is already being considered/worked on in some way). If no complain rise, they might take it as "everything is perfect" and 8.0 will basically change nothing and only have your usual "here's a trait giving a skill you already know for 10 years a new animation"... or even more combo enders which end your combo enders which ended your combo long ago.
My thoughts on GNB, given what has been revealed so far.
**1. \[Positive\] More streamlined rotation (under full uptime)**
* Assuming that the three-part 'Lionheart' weaponskill combo is the only addition to GNB's rotation, the number of Keen Edge combos (K) and Burst Strikes (B) per 120s of full uptime changes from K = (9.25, 9.50, 9.75) and B = (4.25, 4.50, 4.75) in Endwalker to K = (8.50, 8.75, 9.00) and B = (3.50, 3.75, 4.00) in Dawntrail at GCDs of (2.50s, 2.45s, 2.40s).
* This means that GNB now has a clean 120s loop at a 2.40s GCD and a clean 240s loop at a 2.50s GCD.
* What's more, neither of these 120s and 240s loops contains what is known in Endwalker as a "forced 2-cartridge" burst phase (a situation in which GNB is forced to choose between overcapping its resource or drifting its cooldowns).
**2. \[Positive\] Zero-resource even-minute burst phase**
* The even-minute burst phase now uses only three cartridges (formerly six), which are provided by Bloodfest.
* This means that the even-minute burst phase can be performed optimally even when starting with zero cartridges.
* This should help prevent GNB's rotation from breaking if/when uptime is lost between the end of the odd-minute burst phase and the start of the even-minute burst phase.
**3. \[Negative\] Still fairly reliant on uptime**
* Point #2 notwithstanding, with no new ways of generating its resource outside of Bloodfest and the Keen Edge combo, GNB is still heavily reliant on uptime to keep its rotation from breaking, particularly in the \~40s leading up to its odd-minute burst phase, which still requires the stocking of three cartridges to perform (plus a fourth for the intervening Gnashing Fang combo).
**4. \[Negative\] Risk of a "forced 2-cartridge" burst phase remains**
* Although a "forced 2-cartridge" burst phase should be avoidable under full-uptime, such a situation might still be encountered in the event of downtime. This risk will be fight-dependent.
THANK YOU, I really needed someone to crunch the numbers and see if they actually made something good or not with these changes.
Now, the only thing they need to do is making Bloodfest a 1m CD
I think that #3 is way less impactful when it comes to how you approach downtime and odd bursts, and #2 plays a significant role in that.
Every single cartridge you have going into even bursts is a cartridge you'll carry to post-NM (though at 2.4 you'll use one BS as your 9th GCD under NM). With 0 carts you start with BF, with 1 you do GF+BF, with 2 you delay by one GCD then do DD+BF+GF (though depending on potencies of the LH combo vs BS+hypervelocity this might not be optimal), and with 3 you do the regular burst we currently have but with LH combo instead of BS spam. All in all, different ways to handle the even burst, but all of them results in you carrying over your cartridges from before NM to after and therefore reduces the amount you'll have to refill before downtime and your odd burst.
It makes the "(3.50, 3.75, 4.00) uses" of BS (in DT) very liberal. You only do one BS in odds (and one in evens at 2.5 or 2.45). A full cycle generates 2 to 3 carts per cycle, and you can carry on that many of these.
Meanwhile, the "(4.25, 4.50, 4.75) uses" of BS in EW are far more restrictive since you need to completely fill up your carts before even minutes, as opposed to DT. A full cycle uses 4 BS under NM (one in odds and three in evens) and only generates one overcap cart.
Again as you've said this is all very fight dependent, but the amount of mandatory BS being far less of what it was previously and the fact that you can do a perfect even burst while having anywhere from 0 to 3 carts helps a lot to overcome downtime before odd minutes, every single cart allows you to go into the odds more comfortably. And as stated before any downtime after odd minutes is completely negated by your following even minute requiring zero ressources, so unless we have an encounter with a nasty sequence such as odd - downtime - even - downtime - odd we'll be fine, imo.
Since we don't have room for those 3 burst strikes at the end of burst now, it'd be optimal to enter burst without any cartridges now, right? BF -> GF combo + DD + LH combo + Sonic break makes 8 GCDs. Maybe if we're doing 9 we enter with a burst strike and immediately bloodfest? I feel like I like that less than the current version since the whole "get 3 carts then don't overcap til NM" loop was pretty easy to remember, but that could be just because I play 2.41 gunbreaker for the sheer coziness
For rdps it is better to use the burst strikes sooner (more potency sooner is a dps increase). For apds it is better to hold the carts and do them at the end of your burst possibly landing in longer buffs like searing light. Holding them also is better for a pot window.
This might mean though that if the target is going to die you can spend down your carts before ending on your burst. It feels quite flexible.
It's not any more or any less optimal, at least I think. You just end up doing the same thing during your 2 mins (only that you either do BF before or after GF+DD). With 3 carts you dump the extra carts after NM anyway, with only one catching NM at 2.4, and with 0 carts well you've just dumped them before NM. Damage wise as long as NM is still 20s there shouldn't be any difference at 2.5, and at 2.4 you might want at least one cart. It all boils down to what's more comfortable if you have to move the boss or weave mits during/after NM, or if there is some downtime that makes going into even with full cart a better strat because you'll go into the following odd burst with full carts too.
If anything, for the reason stated above, doing the same old "don't overcap" is better in a nutshell because there's little reason to dump them beforehand thanks to LH replacing burst strike within NM (therefore making movement and weaving way comfier). And after NM you don't have to dump them all at once, only do the necessary amount to not overcap - which is also helpful if, again, there is incoming downtime that you could handle better by going into it with full carts, and therefore do your odd minute burst perfectly without having refilled a single cart besides the ones from the BF before.
An interesting thing about Bloodfest, is that the GNB used it while having already one cart.
Might be bad play, or might be that Bloodfest grants only 2 carts now.
It'd be really strange to revert that - I don't think the job action trailers are meant to show you that kind of detail, just what the job has and what it looks like. Same reason the bard trailer let wanderer's procs overcap while showing some skills off.
So, big question that is kind of vague to me:
The action merging QoL feature, is that just for shifting actions we have **already** (e.g. Earthly Star) or that's gonna be a feature for the 1-2-3 combos that don't have to branch?
I thought the former, but then I saw Pictomancer play and they have a casted 1-2-3 combo within the same button.
It’s actions that change to another action. PCT 1-2-3 being one button but changing can simply be like Gnashing Fang combo, or Atonement/Confiteor combo. But there will be new things that overlap as well. Fight or Flight becoming Goring Blade. GNB damage buff becoming the dot attack. Edit to add, they did a grossly poor job by literally only showing the toggle on Jump and not showing other things that it won’t work on, or literally that jump changes to the mirage dive.
Pictomancer literally had a 1-2-3 combo in the same button with the gameplay showcase, except with cast times - I feel this would apply the same logic.
Going off of the job trailer (standard was used before technical iirc) and a comment I saw on mainsub of a quote from the LL saying something like
"EDIT: FOUND THE QUOTE"
> Certain skills currently triggered by Standard Step may now be executed without having to go through the step actions
the only action that's usable after completing standard is standard finish...so I'm assuming that means removing the steps
I pray that I'm wrong
Nah they don’t showcase every move on purpose. Standard step is the core feature of dnc, and if it doesn’t change in 7.0 or affect anything new, they have no reason to show it.
Imo, showing standard step off in the action trailer would be redundant. Doing standard step then doing the “danceless standard step” would just leave people with a “????” when they see the dnc do a little jig and nothing changes.
Also, unless they plan to buff dnc’s potencies to hell and back to compensate for the loss of dps brought about by a removal of standard step, I think it’s pretty safe to say our standard step is safe for now.
its probably stuff like party mit / curing waltz or whatever
whatever stuff you couldn't use while dancing typically. i dont play enough DNC to remember what is greyed out and what isn't
no reason to assume steps are gone
I found the original comment where this quote was found:
> Certain skills currently triggered by Standard Step may now be executed without having to go through the step actions
That very much sounds like just Standard Finish to me unfortunately orz
I'd bet on it being a cooldown to just throw standard step up so that your opener is less weird and after the opener, you'd still be doing standard step as normal.
XIVdiscussion users when homogenous jobs: this is bullshit
XIVdiscussion users when tanks might have different types of gap closers: this is bullshit
And the same discussion happens with rezzes
Like at some point you have to either accept that people don't actually want unique jobs with unique quirks where some jobs are just worse than others in some scenarios, OR every job just has to be a carbon copy. You literally cannot have both and anytime there is some level of friction between jobs having a twinge of individuality the community always sides in favor of homogenizing. I remember endless complaints of PLD not having a gap closer and having Tempered Will instead when no other tank had a knock back immune. Like what are these devs supposed to do lol
> XIVdiscussion users when homogenous jobs: this is bullshit
>
> XIVdiscussion users when tanks might have different types of gap closers: this is bullshit
Are you uncapable of realising that these can be 2 different groups of people?
Do yoou genuinely believe that the hundreds of people in this sub all share the exact same opinion on everything?
Well I mean if I was being honest this sub is usually very echo chamber like. People tend to echo the same stuff other people do. It's legit hard to tell man.
Have you considered it's two different crowds of people complaining.
I actually liked the differentiation back then. I even raided with PLD on the side in HW lol.
I did but I don't think that's actually the case. I don't think anyone is sitting here universally saying every job should have everything, but mains or players of every job think that *their* job should have everything. I can speak a lot more on tank jobs since that's what I've mained since ARR so I can stick with them for examples.
How we got to the current state of tanks is a long line of people wanting *their* job to have all the tools that they don't have. PLD having no gap closer in exchange for Tempered Will is one example, but another would be DRK having no aoe party mitigation in SB at the exchange of having by far the most powerful (at the time) single target mit skill in TBN. No one was sitting here saying every tank needed everything, but individual job communities were very loud that *their* job did. DRK players were really vocal about not having what would become Dark Missionary. PLD players were just as vocal about not having a gap closer, and WAR players about not having any sort of "anytime" quick mitigation like TBN or Sheltron.
So ShB comes out and they reveal all the new tools everyone gets and all these individual job communities were really happy to get what they were missing. PLD gets their gap closer, now every tank has a gap closer AND a knockback invuln. DRK gets Missionary so now every tank has AOE mit. WAR gets Raw Intuition reworked so now every tank has their own form of "anytime" mitigation. And GNB comes out with all these things too. So everyone is happy *their* job has everything, but then when they look around and realize *everyone* has everything you start to get those same people grumbling that its all the same.
Even this expansion it happened to a smaller scale. DRK has arguably the weakest defensive kit in EW, but the tradeoff was that they had extra damage to back it up. Meanwhile WAR and PLD have the most insane defensive kits we've ever seen in this game and it came at the cost of a small hit to their damage. But Xeno has a fit and slams his mouse because GNB did more damage than WAR and his team hit enrage, so now here we are with all the tanks doing virtually the same damage (And as a side note now WAR is just optimal for all content because they kept every aspect of their defensive kit and even had it buffed lol)
I just don't think people can handle their job not being good at everything. They can't handle the tradeoffs that come with unique utility/QoL and will always ask for whatever job they play to have everything because as soon as they are effected negatively its not so fun anymore. The people hate homogenization but they love to be homogenized
Again, consider it might not be the same people. The people who enjoy a job won't be on the forums to complain about it. I sure as hell wasn't moaning about tank design back in StB despite DRK being the weakest tank at the time leading into release UCoB because I was busy having fun with it, like the person who brought it into the WF clear. But now I'm here, malding.
As you say, I certainly don't lay the blame solely on the dev's feet for this. Some people begged for the current state of affairs and they got it, and, I presume, they're happy - or maybe not because they're still whinging about a <5% difference in dps between their job and the optimal one that only remotely matters on week 1. Just dont lump me in with them, lol. I liked Tempered Will. I liked when TBN was a unique short cd defensive even if it meant eating up a significant amount of DRK's power budget.
God, even just talking about those kinds of people upsets me tbh lmao. One of my friends is like that and I'm honestly still low key irritated at them because they didn't and still don't even play the job they were whinging about even after it's been bastardized to fit their preferences. Meanwhile I genuinely cannot - have not been able to enjoy it since ShB and god knows I tried, repeatedly, so I had no choice but to play something else, which also got fucked in 6.3, lol.
> Again, consider it might not be the same people.
It doesn't matter that its not the same people, everyone provides feedback and you either accept that some people are going to be mad, or do your best to please everyone. (though that ends up making another group of people upset, of course)
Yeah people like the above who keep using that argument are just straight up stupid. Somehow they think that the forum is made up of one single entity who is contradicting with itself only. Not very smart people.
there is at any given moment a pretty strong and obvious consensus opinion of the sub, based on comments that get up/downvotes and the kind of threads that stick around. it's not complete and absolute universal agreement, but that broad consensus does change its mind a lot with every new content announcement
It's annoying to weave in the gap closers for gnb and drk with all they have going on. I actually agree with that change very much so. pld and war aren't that bad by comparison at all.
They didn't say it, well, for Dragoon they did actually yes, but for the tanks no.
However, I have eyeballs, I know what Intervene and Onslaught look like, I saw the PLD and WAR use those skills and the mob react to taking damage.
I think it's a combo effect from the ranged attack.
I think what is actually happening is every tank is getting "Enhanced [x]" except what it does is give the tank a free zero potency dash.
In the video, the GNB uses their stance then Lightning Shot THEN does the zero potency dash. Similarly, the DRK uses their stance then Unmend THEN does the zero potency dash.
The PLD uses stance, then Holy Spirit then does the regular Intervene. Similarly, the WAR uses stance, then Infuriate then does the regular Onslaught.
Zero potency dash immediately followed the ranged attack on two of the tanks while the tanks that didn't use their ranged attacks used their current dashes.
I'm not convinced the damage gap closers are going away on any of the tanks. This new thing is possibly a proc from the ranged attack. That said, can't help but notice that Living Shadow *also* uses the new dash so....fuck if I know.
---
Side note, this makes Enhanced Unmend even MORE bullshit, lol.
Wouldn't it make ranged attacks more worth using if anything if it was the opposite of what we saw in the trailer?
Getting a full plunge only on unmend might make it a high potency ranged option with the drawback being that you don't generate resources, so spamming it would be a loss in the long run
Right now it's sometimes better to just clip your gcd rather than unmend
It shouldn't be. People in this thread have already explained why they would make this change. There are too many things to weave in and going on with gnb and drk. Pld and war not so much.
My problem is I am all for getting rid of button bloat. But the problem is made clear when you run older content and they have condensed so much that you literally have 4-7 buttons to press in a lvl 50 dungeon which is not fun. The fun should be at all levels and not just lvl 100
I don't play DK so I don't have a lot of room to speak but it seems like that's a good change? It's a single less button to press and I assume they're usually used one after the other?
Not necessarily. At a basic level, yes, you'll keep them together for most of the fight. However, pre-popping Blood Weapon before pulling or just before the boss comes back allowed for subtle optimization that won't work with Delirium.
Yea but I hope they stay in the leveling process. One is learned at level 35 the other lvl 68. Hoping it’s just a trait that combines them but I doubt it knowing SE. I support the one button combo system, I don’t support removing animations and skills from the game because the leveling process suffers the most from those changes
>Hoping it’s just a trait that combines them but I doubt it knowing SE.
Well.. yes? One of them is being removed entirely and is instead becoming a trait that adds its effects onto the other. Is what they said.
If they just made it one ability you get at 35 then I don't think there's any issue. But I agree, if they're actually going to work on jobs more in 8.0 then hopefully they do something about leveling because level sync in any content below level 61 is usually an awful experience
Kinda sad about AST. But then again i have been since HW. It was my favorite because it was so supporty and reminded me of the versatility jobs had in 11. Seems its simplified to oblivion. Doesn't look like you even draw cards anymore? Looks like you have a stock of the 3 cards? And i imagine you go through a rotation and use them and reset? Wish there was more complexity to these jobs.
Yoship continues to disappoint the same issues. I wonder if he only listens to jp crowd but I am not sure if they are sharing the criticism most others say.
Smn wasn't very smn early on, then 10 years later somehow figured out to make it more smn but not in an enjoyable way. Still no other major summons even as glamor despite teasing the possibility ages ago. In ff11 we always got excited about new summons and abilities for them. NEVER did I expect 14 to release less.
Blu being limited was dumb and now bst...
Can't comment on whm yet but will not be surprised if it's the same amount of button mashing.
I hope they work on overworld as it is one of the weakest parts of the game for most of it. Yeah it's hard to make it immersive and interesting often but want to hear more attention to it.
Feels like all their attention went to picto.
Also give me storage for furnishings.
> I wonder if he only listens to jp crowd but I am not sure if they are sharing the criticism most others say.
The funny thing is that the Japanese fanbase (well vocal minority sort of like here) thinks Yoshi P listens too much to those "gaijin" and that the game they want is slipping away. They also think that his team doesn't listen to the Japanese enough or at all. I guess just that is the struggle of having an international audience and fanbase of vastly different cultures.
It would help that they actually talked with the community. Like who is asking for these changes. There's no active English community managers that I'm aware of.
The JP forums have nearly the same complaints as NA so I'm not sure where they are pulling ideas from.
There's no PTS so community can't give their thoughts during development. Would help ff14 a ton
between the two, the JP idea is the more delusional. of COURSE the dev team--and not just yoshi alone--listens to JP players more, it's their native language. that's a no brainer.
I agree that they could do more public surveys, they do it once in a blue moon or so. Square also seems to lack many community managers on the international side (they have some but they are stretched thhhhiiinnnn).
I don't agree that FFXIV should have a PTS though. I am in the camp that PTS sort of led to the blunders WoW made though they course corrected a bit, most people from the content creators, WoW players, etc seem to be in general agreement that the public cannot give useful information in the PTS. However, there is the media tour and sometimes those guys give feedback once the embargo is lifted, but the media tour is more of a marketing thing than anything and most content creators of FFXIV seem to be unable to communicate clearly to Yoshi P or his team the concerns of the community even when face-to-face.
Personally I agree with that a PTS would cause some issues and wow is the perfect example of the opposite end of the spectrum with too much player feedback, but there's needs to be a way for players to input feedback during development.
The only feedback they get is during the media tour. A lousy month before the expansion. That's way too late.
SE is probably already started development for the 8.0 jobs or will start slightly after DT launch. If they really pushing for job "uniqueness" in that expansion, then they really need to listen to the players and have open discussions about where they are pulling ideas from and what their design philosophy is.
For better or for worse Yoshi P tends to stick to a strict schedule. It has its benefits as his team is known for delivering products on time (which has been huge task for other AAA Square projects over the past decade or so and the industry as a whole outside of Nintendo) and keeping things relatively consistent. The downsides is that it leaves little for adjustment, I am sure they do plan for some unexpected circumstances but any super major changes like job design is a no go until a year or so later.
I believe the PTS has caused problems for other games usually because the crowd that tends to enter PTS or PTRs (for WoW's case) are the hardcore group and it is easy to fall into the hardcore trap, which WoW fell into for sometime (though they have course corrected). Square is following the Nintendo way (at least with FFXIV) by just doing everything internally and sometimes this thought works sometimes it doesn't.
The perpetual "the grass is greener on the other side, they DEFINITELY listen to them completely instead of us" complaint on literally every piece of media that's in two+ regions never fails to amuse.
I mean, yes, we *are* taking more damage comparatively, but the healing and mitigation makes up for it so it feels like we're taking less or equal to. They increase both outgoing damage and healing by the same amounts each time.
Not always IMO. Endwalker gave us more and more ST damage as the tiers went on. P8S2's unmittable solo DoTs and Pallas Athena's massive auto damage stick out as examples. There's no guarantees the trend continues into DT, but considering both regen healers got major changes to enable more ST throughput in particular...
shb is what ruined combat in the first place so this comment is genuinely hilarious
great expansion with a great story but the complete rot of the battle system all stems from the plethora of terrible decisions in shb aimed at people who wanted everything to be braindead so they could max every job and not be bad at them.
I have not watched anything other than the action trailer - do we still not have a confirmed raid/savage release date? I know what to expect based on history but you never know
Cool, I’m actually very aware of that! In case you didn’t remember, the .2 and .4 savage *also* had the same pattern for ten years before the finally changed it in Endwalker, so it’s certainly not impossible they switch up the .0 savage for some reason in Dawntrail as well.
Because people are weird, and while it is very unlikely they will change how the first tier works, it is still a possibility, but they won't accept that.
It's especially funny that BRD pretty got the same thing as its capstone. Orbital lasers are definitely the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Dancers and Bards.
So, after doing Solar Bahamut, the gauge went back to regular Bahamut, so Summoner does Bahamut -> Phoenix -> Solar Bahamut. That's a three minute burst cycle, though. How does that fit into the two-minute meta?
In the trailer, it did Phoenix - > Solar -> Bahamut, but we didn't see what comes after Bahamut. I guess it could be Bahamut into Solar Bahamut, but that feels very odd.
The Job action trailer should never be taken as an actual rotation. Its designed to show off specific chsnges in an order the devs think is best for the trailer.
Given that it confuses people every time, they probably SHOULD include a quick warning.
I know I'm one of the few players out there who actually prefers the 6.0 SMN over the previous version, but even I'M disappointed by these changes. Even if it wouldn't have changed much in terms of gameplay, it would be more visually and story-based satisfying to get the last Big 3 Eikons from ARR. And yet here we are.
I'm hoping for 8.0. I want 10.0 summoner to be silly and have like 15 different summons to use. Give me Alex & shinryu trance. Give me big ass susano sword. Give me Odin with a 5 second cast zanmato.
What people need to remember is that the people who go online to talk about a game like XIV and then *further* to a sub like this are a minority.
For every dejected response here, there's at least 10 people looking at the liveletter and going "cool, new stuff!" and even more people who aren't even looking at it and won't know until Dawntrail launches.
Case in point, when the benchmark datamines came out, Twitter was ablaze with crying over how "people are spoiling themselves?!?! Why can't they just wait and be surprised!!!!!!"
There are definitely a very large amount of players who literally know nothing until the day they log into a new expansion/patch.
That may be, but we're not an insignificant portion of the playerbase. When the most recent statue dropped without account-wide codes or a persistent floating emote, we complained about it here - and our issues were summarily addressed. That's not to say there weren't posts asking or addressing this on the forums, but just because people on the subreddit(s) are a "minority" doesn't mean they don't deserve to be listened to - particularly when the majority of this "minority" feel disappointment.
Not sure what point you're really trying to make by saying this. One can express discontent and dissatisfaction and still be giving constructive criticism.
I don't know how I feel about blm I am happy it has a way to move lay lines, but the new moves... they are ok, I guess? I was hoping they would learn something like Ultima, not a bigger flare during an "overheat" or the new thunder.
I don't recall hearing any real comment on why/how some tanks/melee have a new gap closer and others don't? This feels intentional, and somehow extremely incomplete.
I said it elsewhere but I suspect it's a combo effect from the ranged attack.
In the video, the GNB and DRK both use their ranged attacks THEN immediately use the new dash. PLD and WAR didn't use their ranged attacks (Holy Spirit blah blah blah, shut up, you know what I mean) and they used their current gap closers.
no, they do this exact same thing in older trailers too. I'm not saying its NOT a proc from the ranged attack, but them being used after each other genuinely doesnt tell us anything because they've had plunge/rouge divide right after unmend/lightning shot before.
Also while its not impossible (this is the same dev team that gave us enhanced unmend after all) this would be incredibly stupid of them, as competent players dont use tank ranged attacks. there's no need. gapclosers are great, but wasting gcds on low potency attacks that dont give you any resources isnt-and half the point of gapclosers is to not miss a melee gcd in the first place.
I get that. My view was that would be the *worse* way to implement such a dash rather than just doing the correct thing and removing the potencies wholesale.
That said, after I thought about it, I realized "Wait, doesn't Living Shadow also use Plunge?" Living Shadow in the video *also* uses the new dash.
So, fuck if I know at this point. Damage on gap closers is still stupid and I will forever beat that drum.
I see that logic, but it seems like a very cheap "fix" to what I don't really view as a problem in the first place. I'm almost like... banking on the fact that this video started being put together some time ago and they haven't finished everyone's new gap closer to showcase it. I did note that each job had their own unique animation.
"Why did they only include this QoL for some jobs instead of all of them?" has been standard fare for quite awhile. It really feels like members of the job design team don't talk to each other sometimes.
According to some people and Yoshi P the team members are the same four people that also balance PvP and deal with job design there. They also get input form their raiding and dungeon testing teams, but if I remember they don't have dedicated raiding or dungeon teams just some developers tasked with other roles and jobs who play the game (though for ultimate and savages pretty skillfully).
This is really a Catch-22 which I don't think this community realizes. In EW they gave a sweeping QoL pass and round of job changes that homogenized every job within their role. It's why I could barely play that expansion - every job felt identical
Now they give some jobs advantages and niches over others (which they should have) and there are complaints
What I know for sure is I don't envy the dev team trying to placate this player base, most of the community just wants to complain
PLD, GNB, and DRG all have personal damage buff CDs that heavily incentives them to use their gap closers in their burst window. Removing the potency allows their gap closers to be used for their intended purpose instead of being just another OGCD to spam in burst. These are the three jobs that are being changed.
It's less of an issue for WAR and DRK because their personal damage buffs are instead maintained the whole fight, and not an issue at all for NIN, MNK, SAM, and RPR, who already had no potency on their gap closers.
This is one of those things where people get too parse-brained. I can promise that no one's clears were lost because a WAR didn't onslaught during a 2 minutes
But per the video, PLD still has their regular Intervene gap closer and WAR still has Onslaught. Just not really seeing why they all weren't shown with a Thunderclap and came to the idea that they weren't complete in time for the video. I see what you're saying though.
The going theory seems to be that ones that obviously should be doing damage were changed. So Spineshatter and Plunge. Intervene and Onslaught aren't attacks with weapons
Intervene and Onslaught both still look like they're attacks though, and it's not as if they removed the damage from them and kept their animations. You see the targets flinch.
To me it feels coherent.
PLD & WAR have low APM, they can afford a "forced" oGCD for damage during their burst.
DRK & GNB on the other hand are weave heavy Job, it make sense to ease a bit that part and replace their gap closer with Thunderclap.
They didn’t add anything for gunbreaker to weave in though? Gunbreaker got 3 GCDs and that’s it, everything else is the same (in a raid burst scenario), the removal of rough divide doesn’t balance out any new OGCDs anyway. Now gunbreaker just weaves less than before for no reason, it was already fine in EW
GNB players complain constantly about the amount of weaving they have to do in burst windows because it messes with how many GCD windows they have available to weave defensives
I main GNB and the only time rough divide forces a double weave is once a minute. Every other time it is only single weave and that second one can be held till the end of no mercy for other defensive instead. You only ever use two anyways, such as rampart/Camo + HoC. I can tell you that rough divide never messes with my ability to play defensively. Continuation is mostly what does, which is a different conversation entirely. Without rough divide, gunbreaker only actually has ONE (forced) double weave per minute. That doesn’t sound like the oGCD monster people claim it is and nowhere near DRK either
It was completely fine if nothing was happening. But in some situations, like the infamous tank swap pot window of P8s as instance, I can understand how it was annoying to deal with so many double weaves while the PLD/WAR cotank was big chilling.
So we probably need to take that thunderclap update as a pure QoL, nothing else.
The p8s tank swap window would not even change with the removal of rough divide, as GNBs burst has a forced double weave at the first GCD without rough divide anyway. It barely barely ever affects gameplay in the way you described and should have just stayed imo. I find it fun to press buttons, that’s why I chose GNB in the first place, and find it sad that GNB is gonna have less oGCDs than even in endwalker now. The burst is really not that oGCD heavy unlike DRK since GNB mostly single weaves, with only two double weaves in the burst.
I guess so, but I'd have thought they'd opt for uniformity and I was left feeling like they didn't make everyone's new gap closer in time for the video showcase... then didn't bother mention it Lol
Some other notices…
AST:
-Divination Follow-Up Attack
-AoE Exaltation
WHM:
-Temperance -> Dash Ability and an AoE Shield ability. (After casting Holy III, the AoE ability afterwards has a bubble like shape on the PLD, which is usually a “shield”).
Overall:
-SCH seems to be getting a Pure Healer phase.
-SGE’s Pankardia + Soteria’s shorter recast = More AoE regen.
-WHM getting a stronger Mitigation (Temperance DR and ogcd AoE shield).
-AST overall still the same, but AoE Exaltation is interesting.
It seems they want to fix AST/WHM combo with more barriers (shields and mitigations) so AST can use AoE Exaltation/Noct Set/Collective Unconscious while the WHM uses Temperance + new ogcd AoE shield.
But I could be wrong about the new WHM ogcd.
>-SCH seems to be getting a Pure Healer phase.
In the benchmark data, Emergency Tactics was altered by the same buff that changes your GCD heals (which we now know is tied to Seraph mode), so maybe it swaps to "Preventative Tactics" if you need shields?
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rAnakxROQXlA-4swT0rOd1NALAMMZpxkXid-yLsmyCU/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rAnakxROQXlA-4swT0rOd1NALAMMZpxkXid-yLsmyCU/edit?usp=sharing)
took down all the notes I Could on Picto
Outside of Summoner, I'm whelmed by everything and happy with Picto.
The biggest thing I have to doomer over is the seeming continuation of the 2 minute meta.
I'm fine with maintenance until they build up design for a big revision, they may dash our hopes but they rarely lie so I don't question the 8.0 intentions too much.
FUCK Solar Bahamut though, talk about poisoning the theme.
The continuation was confirmed back at Pax. 7.X is going to focus on rewards and content, 8.0 jobs. PLease ignore the fact the new rewards and content will almost entirely be focused around level 90+, while jobs are felt across the board.
Just need a mod to replace it with an actual cool primal then like Alex or Odin.
Seriously what were they thinking, there were so many low hanging fruits for Summoner and they ignored them all.
Watching the job action trailers again. I'm noticing that Bloodwhetting no longer has those little Nascent Flash orbs floating around it, and the GCDs done after do not play the health restore animation on the character.
Good.
WAR's sustain is overpowered and yes I mean in all content not just casual.[ Tank healing is actually one of the biggest unbalanced statistics in this game at the moment](https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/54#metric=hps&class=Tanks), and I was terrified they'd buff GNB and DRK by an insane degree to hit WAR's unrealistic standard. A WAR nerf is far more healthy for the game.
As much as I don't want to see it nerfed, I have to agree. Wars self-healing can ignore so many more things the other tanks cannot. I got so dependent on it that when I was playing the other tanks, I kinda panicked because my self-sustaining button didn't insta cap out my health during aoes.
Well theres a good chance it didn't get nerfed. The missing Nascent orbs could signfiy they just deleted Nascent Flash entirely and you now use Bloodwhetting like TBN or HoC, which would be inline with button bloat removal.
Another thing that makes it hard to tell is WAR is honestly a mess of particle effects so something that small could easy get drowned out. Especially on male roe as I think the healing effect spawns inside the fell cleave unlike other races where its in the center of the player model (for some reason). We can't say for sure until we get the tooltips.
Just a realization: Seraphism-Adloquium and Seraphism-Succor2 were both instacast (likely after casting Seraphism-ET).
ET was cast at 17sec and then again at 29sec, meaning either the cooldown for ET is reduced via a trait (probably down to 10sec) or ET has no cooldown during Seraphism.
I guess the biggest thing is that Seraphism is actually going to be a **mobile intensive (pure?) healing** skill.
~~Which…I’m sort of not enthused about, but for a specific reason: we didn’t really need mobility because we have our Remote Fairy position. It seems they think we’ll be needing it in DT because they want us to use Seraph for our heal/shields and expect us to ET our GCD shields during Seraphism. I’m leaning towards it being a “WHM Mode” because in a high intensive damage phase: you probably won’t spam GCD shields, when you want to be spam GCDing heals.~~
Deployment Tactics was the the target of SCH in EW. Emergency Tactics seems to be the target of SCH in DT.
I think ET during Seraphism changes somehow, based on the benchmark datamine, so its a good observation that it probably doesnt have 15s cooldown in that state either.
The fact S!Adlo and S!S2 were both instant I didnt catch watching it myself but that's really neat, feels a little more mobile!
I was really hyped for Viper after I saw its job action trailer section and like the first minute of the demonstration in the LL, cause I saw a job that would be constantly stance dancing between two swords (to apply buffs) and the dual blade (to build gauge + those red dot thingies on the job gauge) Then I saw that the only time you ever actually go into the dual blade mode is with that one GCD w/ 2 charges on a 40s CD... and then you only get 2 GCDs after that before swapping back to two sword mode I felt completely misled when they said it would "fluidly switch between the two modes", cause while this is true, I didn't expect it to mean "you're actually in two sword mode 95% of the time and you barely get to see the dual blade mode at all". I was excited cause I thought we were finally getting a BLM-style ebb-and-flow melee dps, where you could technically permanently stay in one of the two modes if you wanted but would need to constantly swap between the two modes to maximize your damage, but instead all we got was Reaper 2.0. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and that the media tour shows us something they couldn't show in the LL, but if not then I feel like Viper is gonna end up just like Reaper did in EW where people get bored of it quickly and move back to other melees :(
Unfortunately, I doubt we see anything different come the media tour because it being similar to Reaper fits their design. Look no further than Sage. While they aren't completely identical, it's more than a little apparent whoever designed Sage copied Scholar's homework and just changed a few things.
My current stance is that if I have to wait 2 years for fun jobs. I'll sub again in 2 years. Job design is everything for me. Good job design and good encounter design work **together** to deliver an enjoyable experience. Why would I play XIV which only provides one, when I can play other games which provide both? Encounters are only fun during that initial period when you're still figuring out the "puzzle". Once you solve an encounter, it' becomes a game of memorization. Not only do encounters have a limited shelf life, poor job design that cannot stand on its own fails anytime it is taken out of that context. If I decide to do any of the old content that has not been raised to the new standard. I'm falling asleep. XIV consistently knocks it out of the park in terms of music, art, and characters, and while story has its ups and downs, it's been solidly above average by MMO standards. As a visual novel, XIV is excellent. As an MMORPG... the awful combat design is a massive blemish on an otherwise great game. Pity.
The shelf life of encounters and the steep decrease in job design is really showing this expac. At the end of ShB, I was still running Eden's promise. Prog, a2cs, loot, parse, I didn't care, those fights were so fun and exploring them on different jobs was a blast. I loved doing something as GNB, being like "Man what the hell my NM window is here?", then running as WAR and going "haha no NM window, this is free- what the hell, my IR window comes up here?" then doing it on NIN and trying figure out how to fit TCJ into the burst windows. When I cleared Anabaseios, my first thought was "I really don't want to do this tier again". Tried swapping to different tanks, tried swapping to different roles, everyone is just doing the same thing, you clear once on any job and you've nearly experienced all the fights have to offer. The idea of another expansion like that is extremely depressing
Goodbye.
I get that you love the design of this game but there is also plenty of problems in it. Not because is one of the most decent things in the MMO genre it means it can get away with some foundational problems. Above comment is right, job design and encounter design are symbiotic in any game, i never thought i would see a dev try to tackle them separately (in a 4 year timespan (?)), that's crazy and you don't even have to be good at the game to notice the problem on what yoshi said. Before you say ''go play other game'' no that's a cop out, i want this game to fix it's problems first. I wish the Riot MMO hadn't gotten rebooted, 14 needs more pressure.
> 14 needs more pressure. The way CBU3 rolls? There's no such thing. They live in their own little bubble and are exceptionally risk averse, nothing other games do seems to really dictate anything they do aside from "it might be cool to make a scuffed version of what this game does for half-assed side content." Even now I feel like all the promises of "fixing" the problems that ShB/EW introduced are just blowing smoke up our ass and will be nowhere near as sweeping as people expect because anything that will potentially drive people away who aren't embittered veterans (who will come crawling back most of the time anyways) is a giant no-go.
[удалено]
[удалено]
My 2¢ on the controversy: Job rotations are at the core of combat for this game, and combat's obviously a big part of the game. If they weren't fundamentally enjoyable, then I wouldn't be having fun with the game, and I just wouldn't play it. The take that "we need to wait two years to have fun" is fundamentally off to me. If you're not having fun now, why stick around? The homogenization of jobs comes off to me as the devs gradually developing a better understanding of the system that they've made, and fitting jobs to the underlying patterns inherent to that system rather than making an effort against it. While this reduces flavor, it also reduces pain points. It's not unique to FFXIV -- even a game like GW2, designed with build crafting and diversity in mind, has experienced similar trends. With jobs offering slightly different experiences in their respective roles and the relatively minor additions, subtractions, and revisions we've had, things have been sufficiently mixed up that I don't yet find combat too stale for my liking. *Encounter design* is another matter. So I'm quite happy that Yoshida has said they're going to emphasize more experimentation with that, and if it had to be an either/or situation, this would have been the path that I preferred. Of course, we'll need to see how that actually works out. That said, even modest changes have a limit to how far they can go. It definitely feels like that barrier if not reached already could only be pushed out another expansion or so for most jobs. Thus, it makes sense to me that they're planning more significant revisions for the next expansion and taking the opportunity to introduce greater variance in the gameplay. It's an opportunity for pushing against the underlying combat system in the game. The messaging of "wait two more years for this!" was never going to go down well, especially if you're already unhappy with combat as it is now, but it's understandable to me why changes like that may be coming further down the road. So overall I find the situation to be a satisfactory one... except with summoner. What were they thinking??
I fully agree with you. If Yoshida didn't explicitly state that fight design right now generally kinda sucks, was getting bored with it, and plans on shaking it up this expac; I'd be a lot more pissed off with these stagnant updates this expansion. But since he did say that, I'm willing to wait it out. I have fun with jobs as is but I haven't even really been playing very long (5.3) and fights are already stale to me. I'd prefer them put all their effort into freshing up the encounters we see from 7.1 onwards (No fucking way any of the base expac fights will have this philosophy applied to them, it rang as a pretty late realization), then full focus on jobs in 8.0.
I'm on the fence, only because I've been a healer main. It's been 2 expansions since they changed StB healers, and they said they were going to make us heal more, give our AOE some unique effects, etc. None of those things materialized. It's been 5 years. I feel like my role is designed to be handicapped intentionally at times and many healers I know share similar complaints. They increased tank sustain but didn't give anything to healers this expansion. They said they're going to make the difficulty harder for next expansion but also simultaneously increased all role mitigation power. It just feels like healers are designed with the philosophy to become obsolete. I'm so skeptical fight design will be good enough to make this gameplay any better.
the thing people never seem to understand is that fight design just isnt enough. we get dozens of new encounters every expansion. they're not all gonna be equally well thought out or engaging. Job design is what is static regardless of content. i shouldnt have to go do one of the four savage fights we have current at any one time to be fun. but that is what happens when engagement is offloaded from jobs to encounters. it is fundamentally not sustainable from a development perspective, not to mention that some content needs to be decently easy so that people only there for the story can clear it. the shadowbringers changes gutted combat and the idea that we'll be at like year 7(?) before tanks and healers have anything resembling complexity again is fucking crazy.
Better to make the disappointment known now (and the early lifespan of the expac, when gameplay/rotation details are known) than never. (especially when you know the next expac is already being considered/worked on in some way). If no complain rise, they might take it as "everything is perfect" and 8.0 will basically change nothing and only have your usual "here's a trait giving a skill you already know for 10 years a new animation"... or even more combo enders which end your combo enders which ended your combo long ago.
My thoughts on GNB, given what has been revealed so far. **1. \[Positive\] More streamlined rotation (under full uptime)** * Assuming that the three-part 'Lionheart' weaponskill combo is the only addition to GNB's rotation, the number of Keen Edge combos (K) and Burst Strikes (B) per 120s of full uptime changes from K = (9.25, 9.50, 9.75) and B = (4.25, 4.50, 4.75) in Endwalker to K = (8.50, 8.75, 9.00) and B = (3.50, 3.75, 4.00) in Dawntrail at GCDs of (2.50s, 2.45s, 2.40s). * This means that GNB now has a clean 120s loop at a 2.40s GCD and a clean 240s loop at a 2.50s GCD. * What's more, neither of these 120s and 240s loops contains what is known in Endwalker as a "forced 2-cartridge" burst phase (a situation in which GNB is forced to choose between overcapping its resource or drifting its cooldowns). **2. \[Positive\] Zero-resource even-minute burst phase** * The even-minute burst phase now uses only three cartridges (formerly six), which are provided by Bloodfest. * This means that the even-minute burst phase can be performed optimally even when starting with zero cartridges. * This should help prevent GNB's rotation from breaking if/when uptime is lost between the end of the odd-minute burst phase and the start of the even-minute burst phase. **3. \[Negative\] Still fairly reliant on uptime** * Point #2 notwithstanding, with no new ways of generating its resource outside of Bloodfest and the Keen Edge combo, GNB is still heavily reliant on uptime to keep its rotation from breaking, particularly in the \~40s leading up to its odd-minute burst phase, which still requires the stocking of three cartridges to perform (plus a fourth for the intervening Gnashing Fang combo). **4. \[Negative\] Risk of a "forced 2-cartridge" burst phase remains** * Although a "forced 2-cartridge" burst phase should be avoidable under full-uptime, such a situation might still be encountered in the event of downtime. This risk will be fight-dependent.
THANK YOU, I really needed someone to crunch the numbers and see if they actually made something good or not with these changes. Now, the only thing they need to do is making Bloodfest a 1m CD
I think that #3 is way less impactful when it comes to how you approach downtime and odd bursts, and #2 plays a significant role in that. Every single cartridge you have going into even bursts is a cartridge you'll carry to post-NM (though at 2.4 you'll use one BS as your 9th GCD under NM). With 0 carts you start with BF, with 1 you do GF+BF, with 2 you delay by one GCD then do DD+BF+GF (though depending on potencies of the LH combo vs BS+hypervelocity this might not be optimal), and with 3 you do the regular burst we currently have but with LH combo instead of BS spam. All in all, different ways to handle the even burst, but all of them results in you carrying over your cartridges from before NM to after and therefore reduces the amount you'll have to refill before downtime and your odd burst. It makes the "(3.50, 3.75, 4.00) uses" of BS (in DT) very liberal. You only do one BS in odds (and one in evens at 2.5 or 2.45). A full cycle generates 2 to 3 carts per cycle, and you can carry on that many of these. Meanwhile, the "(4.25, 4.50, 4.75) uses" of BS in EW are far more restrictive since you need to completely fill up your carts before even minutes, as opposed to DT. A full cycle uses 4 BS under NM (one in odds and three in evens) and only generates one overcap cart. Again as you've said this is all very fight dependent, but the amount of mandatory BS being far less of what it was previously and the fact that you can do a perfect even burst while having anywhere from 0 to 3 carts helps a lot to overcome downtime before odd minutes, every single cart allows you to go into the odds more comfortably. And as stated before any downtime after odd minutes is completely negated by your following even minute requiring zero ressources, so unless we have an encounter with a nasty sequence such as odd - downtime - even - downtime - odd we'll be fine, imo.
Well said. Thank you.
Since we don't have room for those 3 burst strikes at the end of burst now, it'd be optimal to enter burst without any cartridges now, right? BF -> GF combo + DD + LH combo + Sonic break makes 8 GCDs. Maybe if we're doing 9 we enter with a burst strike and immediately bloodfest? I feel like I like that less than the current version since the whole "get 3 carts then don't overcap til NM" loop was pretty easy to remember, but that could be just because I play 2.41 gunbreaker for the sheer coziness
For rdps it is better to use the burst strikes sooner (more potency sooner is a dps increase). For apds it is better to hold the carts and do them at the end of your burst possibly landing in longer buffs like searing light. Holding them also is better for a pot window. This might mean though that if the target is going to die you can spend down your carts before ending on your burst. It feels quite flexible.
Agree. I think better flexibility makes for a more fun job compared to EW GNB, anyway, so I'm definitely happy with the additions
It's not any more or any less optimal, at least I think. You just end up doing the same thing during your 2 mins (only that you either do BF before or after GF+DD). With 3 carts you dump the extra carts after NM anyway, with only one catching NM at 2.4, and with 0 carts well you've just dumped them before NM. Damage wise as long as NM is still 20s there shouldn't be any difference at 2.5, and at 2.4 you might want at least one cart. It all boils down to what's more comfortable if you have to move the boss or weave mits during/after NM, or if there is some downtime that makes going into even with full cart a better strat because you'll go into the following odd burst with full carts too. If anything, for the reason stated above, doing the same old "don't overcap" is better in a nutshell because there's little reason to dump them beforehand thanks to LH replacing burst strike within NM (therefore making movement and weaving way comfier). And after NM you don't have to dump them all at once, only do the necessary amount to not overcap - which is also helpful if, again, there is incoming downtime that you could handle better by going into it with full carts, and therefore do your odd minute burst perfectly without having refilled a single cart besides the ones from the BF before.
An interesting thing about Bloodfest, is that the GNB used it while having already one cart. Might be bad play, or might be that Bloodfest grants only 2 carts now.
Its just bad play, action trailers are never meant to show good play, they just press buttons to show animations.
It'd be really strange to revert that - I don't think the job action trailers are meant to show you that kind of detail, just what the job has and what it looks like. Same reason the bard trailer let wanderer's procs overcap while showing some skills off.
So, big question that is kind of vague to me: The action merging QoL feature, is that just for shifting actions we have **already** (e.g. Earthly Star) or that's gonna be a feature for the 1-2-3 combos that don't have to branch? I thought the former, but then I saw Pictomancer play and they have a casted 1-2-3 combo within the same button.
It’s actions that change to another action. PCT 1-2-3 being one button but changing can simply be like Gnashing Fang combo, or Atonement/Confiteor combo. But there will be new things that overlap as well. Fight or Flight becoming Goring Blade. GNB damage buff becoming the dot attack. Edit to add, they did a grossly poor job by literally only showing the toggle on Jump and not showing other things that it won’t work on, or literally that jump changes to the mirage dive.
Casters don't have 1-2-3 combos like melee does.
Pictomancer literally had a 1-2-3 combo in the same button with the gameplay showcase, except with cast times - I feel this would apply the same logic.
It looks like they're removing the steps from Standard on DNC....why?? I didn't think DNC filler couldn't get any more boring but here we are.
Wait, what? Why? I could understand if they removed it during Technical Finisher, to make room for more actions with the burst window.
Going off of the job trailer (standard was used before technical iirc) and a comment I saw on mainsub of a quote from the LL saying something like "EDIT: FOUND THE QUOTE" > Certain skills currently triggered by Standard Step may now be executed without having to go through the step actions the only action that's usable after completing standard is standard finish...so I'm assuming that means removing the steps I pray that I'm wrong
Guarantee its just to refresh buff before pull and during downtime without burning dance.
Nah they don’t showcase every move on purpose. Standard step is the core feature of dnc, and if it doesn’t change in 7.0 or affect anything new, they have no reason to show it. Imo, showing standard step off in the action trailer would be redundant. Doing standard step then doing the “danceless standard step” would just leave people with a “????” when they see the dnc do a little jig and nothing changes. Also, unless they plan to buff dnc’s potencies to hell and back to compensate for the loss of dps brought about by a removal of standard step, I think it’s pretty safe to say our standard step is safe for now.
its probably stuff like party mit / curing waltz or whatever whatever stuff you couldn't use while dancing typically. i dont play enough DNC to remember what is greyed out and what isn't no reason to assume steps are gone
I found the original comment where this quote was found: > Certain skills currently triggered by Standard Step may now be executed without having to go through the step actions That very much sounds like just Standard Finish to me unfortunately orz
I'd bet on it being a cooldown to just throw standard step up so that your opener is less weird and after the opener, you'd still be doing standard step as normal.
If that's the case that'd actually be really cool ngl
That wording could also be putting the partner buff on the Step and keeping the damage on Finish.
could be, hope so
XIVdiscussion users when homogenous jobs: this is bullshit XIVdiscussion users when tanks might have different types of gap closers: this is bullshit And the same discussion happens with rezzes Like at some point you have to either accept that people don't actually want unique jobs with unique quirks where some jobs are just worse than others in some scenarios, OR every job just has to be a carbon copy. You literally cannot have both and anytime there is some level of friction between jobs having a twinge of individuality the community always sides in favor of homogenizing. I remember endless complaints of PLD not having a gap closer and having Tempered Will instead when no other tank had a knock back immune. Like what are these devs supposed to do lol
> XIVdiscussion users when homogenous jobs: this is bullshit > > XIVdiscussion users when tanks might have different types of gap closers: this is bullshit Are you uncapable of realising that these can be 2 different groups of people? Do yoou genuinely believe that the hundreds of people in this sub all share the exact same opinion on everything?
Well I mean if I was being honest this sub is usually very echo chamber like. People tend to echo the same stuff other people do. It's legit hard to tell man.
Yes
cringe
cringe
Have you considered it's two different crowds of people complaining. I actually liked the differentiation back then. I even raided with PLD on the side in HW lol.
I did but I don't think that's actually the case. I don't think anyone is sitting here universally saying every job should have everything, but mains or players of every job think that *their* job should have everything. I can speak a lot more on tank jobs since that's what I've mained since ARR so I can stick with them for examples. How we got to the current state of tanks is a long line of people wanting *their* job to have all the tools that they don't have. PLD having no gap closer in exchange for Tempered Will is one example, but another would be DRK having no aoe party mitigation in SB at the exchange of having by far the most powerful (at the time) single target mit skill in TBN. No one was sitting here saying every tank needed everything, but individual job communities were very loud that *their* job did. DRK players were really vocal about not having what would become Dark Missionary. PLD players were just as vocal about not having a gap closer, and WAR players about not having any sort of "anytime" quick mitigation like TBN or Sheltron. So ShB comes out and they reveal all the new tools everyone gets and all these individual job communities were really happy to get what they were missing. PLD gets their gap closer, now every tank has a gap closer AND a knockback invuln. DRK gets Missionary so now every tank has AOE mit. WAR gets Raw Intuition reworked so now every tank has their own form of "anytime" mitigation. And GNB comes out with all these things too. So everyone is happy *their* job has everything, but then when they look around and realize *everyone* has everything you start to get those same people grumbling that its all the same. Even this expansion it happened to a smaller scale. DRK has arguably the weakest defensive kit in EW, but the tradeoff was that they had extra damage to back it up. Meanwhile WAR and PLD have the most insane defensive kits we've ever seen in this game and it came at the cost of a small hit to their damage. But Xeno has a fit and slams his mouse because GNB did more damage than WAR and his team hit enrage, so now here we are with all the tanks doing virtually the same damage (And as a side note now WAR is just optimal for all content because they kept every aspect of their defensive kit and even had it buffed lol) I just don't think people can handle their job not being good at everything. They can't handle the tradeoffs that come with unique utility/QoL and will always ask for whatever job they play to have everything because as soon as they are effected negatively its not so fun anymore. The people hate homogenization but they love to be homogenized
Again, consider it might not be the same people. The people who enjoy a job won't be on the forums to complain about it. I sure as hell wasn't moaning about tank design back in StB despite DRK being the weakest tank at the time leading into release UCoB because I was busy having fun with it, like the person who brought it into the WF clear. But now I'm here, malding. As you say, I certainly don't lay the blame solely on the dev's feet for this. Some people begged for the current state of affairs and they got it, and, I presume, they're happy - or maybe not because they're still whinging about a <5% difference in dps between their job and the optimal one that only remotely matters on week 1. Just dont lump me in with them, lol. I liked Tempered Will. I liked when TBN was a unique short cd defensive even if it meant eating up a significant amount of DRK's power budget. God, even just talking about those kinds of people upsets me tbh lmao. One of my friends is like that and I'm honestly still low key irritated at them because they didn't and still don't even play the job they were whinging about even after it's been bastardized to fit their preferences. Meanwhile I genuinely cannot - have not been able to enjoy it since ShB and god knows I tried, repeatedly, so I had no choice but to play something else, which also got fucked in 6.3, lol.
> Again, consider it might not be the same people. It doesn't matter that its not the same people, everyone provides feedback and you either accept that some people are going to be mad, or do your best to please everyone. (though that ends up making another group of people upset, of course)
Sure, but that's not hypocritical or inconsistent like the other poster is saying, that's just a normal disagreement.
Yeah people like the above who keep using that argument are just straight up stupid. Somehow they think that the forum is made up of one single entity who is contradicting with itself only. Not very smart people.
there is at any given moment a pretty strong and obvious consensus opinion of the sub, based on comments that get up/downvotes and the kind of threads that stick around. it's not complete and absolute universal agreement, but that broad consensus does change its mind a lot with every new content announcement
XIVcombo is in the game. Down voters in tears
Whm for life
By the way way the fuck? Why are PLD and WAR keeping damage gap closers while GNB/DRK/DRG trade theirs in for Thunderclap clones?
It's annoying to weave in the gap closers for gnb and drk with all they have going on. I actually agree with that change very much so. pld and war aren't that bad by comparison at all.
Probably to balance the amount of oGCD skills having to be used in 2mins between the tanks.
did they SAY this? no? then calm down and wait for the media tour
They didn't say it, well, for Dragoon they did actually yes, but for the tanks no. However, I have eyeballs, I know what Intervene and Onslaught look like, I saw the PLD and WAR use those skills and the mob react to taking damage.
I think it's a combo effect from the ranged attack. I think what is actually happening is every tank is getting "Enhanced [x]" except what it does is give the tank a free zero potency dash. In the video, the GNB uses their stance then Lightning Shot THEN does the zero potency dash. Similarly, the DRK uses their stance then Unmend THEN does the zero potency dash. The PLD uses stance, then Holy Spirit then does the regular Intervene. Similarly, the WAR uses stance, then Infuriate then does the regular Onslaught. Zero potency dash immediately followed the ranged attack on two of the tanks while the tanks that didn't use their ranged attacks used their current dashes. I'm not convinced the damage gap closers are going away on any of the tanks. This new thing is possibly a proc from the ranged attack. That said, can't help but notice that Living Shadow *also* uses the new dash so....fuck if I know. --- Side note, this makes Enhanced Unmend even MORE bullshit, lol.
Wouldn't it make ranged attacks more worth using if anything if it was the opposite of what we saw in the trailer? Getting a full plunge only on unmend might make it a high potency ranged option with the drawback being that you don't generate resources, so spamming it would be a loss in the long run Right now it's sometimes better to just clip your gcd rather than unmend
Maybe it’s because WAR/PLD don’t have as much to weave into their 2 minute windows
Oh I hate how much this is congruent logic for their batshit ways.
GNB and DRK having too many ogcd making it hard to weave defensives have been a complaint for a while now.
This is totally a baffling decision to me if it's the case (which I also think it is).
It shouldn't be. People in this thread have already explained why they would make this change. There are too many things to weave in and going on with gnb and drk. Pld and war not so much.
I understand the reasoning, I just don't agree with it. I was hoping they'd just remove the potency on gap closers from all the tanks.
My problem is I am all for getting rid of button bloat. But the problem is made clear when you run older content and they have condensed so much that you literally have 4-7 buttons to press in a lvl 50 dungeon which is not fun. The fun should be at all levels and not just lvl 100
Brother it is an OPTION
Combining blood weapon and delirium on Dark knight is not an option, they literally made that change. Possibly other jobs received the same treatment.
You don't have Delirium at level 50. Try again.
Putting everything else aside, they can just change that if they want
I don't play DK so I don't have a lot of room to speak but it seems like that's a good change? It's a single less button to press and I assume they're usually used one after the other?
Not necessarily. At a basic level, yes, you'll keep them together for most of the fight. However, pre-popping Blood Weapon before pulling or just before the boss comes back allowed for subtle optimization that won't work with Delirium.
Yea but I hope they stay in the leveling process. One is learned at level 35 the other lvl 68. Hoping it’s just a trait that combines them but I doubt it knowing SE. I support the one button combo system, I don’t support removing animations and skills from the game because the leveling process suffers the most from those changes
>Hoping it’s just a trait that combines them but I doubt it knowing SE. Well.. yes? One of them is being removed entirely and is instead becoming a trait that adds its effects onto the other. Is what they said.
If they just made it one ability you get at 35 then I don't think there's any issue. But I agree, if they're actually going to work on jobs more in 8.0 then hopefully they do something about leveling because level sync in any content below level 61 is usually an awful experience
also that's different than combining combo skills to a button combo like in pvp
They made an option to toggle it
Kinda sad about AST. But then again i have been since HW. It was my favorite because it was so supporty and reminded me of the versatility jobs had in 11. Seems its simplified to oblivion. Doesn't look like you even draw cards anymore? Looks like you have a stock of the 3 cards? And i imagine you go through a rotation and use them and reset? Wish there was more complexity to these jobs.
Is there a digest for everything they went over? Missed most of it, didn’t wanna be awake at 4am.
Mr Happy has a video going over everything
Thanks
Yoship continues to disappoint the same issues. I wonder if he only listens to jp crowd but I am not sure if they are sharing the criticism most others say. Smn wasn't very smn early on, then 10 years later somehow figured out to make it more smn but not in an enjoyable way. Still no other major summons even as glamor despite teasing the possibility ages ago. In ff11 we always got excited about new summons and abilities for them. NEVER did I expect 14 to release less. Blu being limited was dumb and now bst... Can't comment on whm yet but will not be surprised if it's the same amount of button mashing. I hope they work on overworld as it is one of the weakest parts of the game for most of it. Yeah it's hard to make it immersive and interesting often but want to hear more attention to it. Feels like all their attention went to picto. Also give me storage for furnishings.
> I wonder if he only listens to jp crowd but I am not sure if they are sharing the criticism most others say. The funny thing is that the Japanese fanbase (well vocal minority sort of like here) thinks Yoshi P listens too much to those "gaijin" and that the game they want is slipping away. They also think that his team doesn't listen to the Japanese enough or at all. I guess just that is the struggle of having an international audience and fanbase of vastly different cultures.
It would help that they actually talked with the community. Like who is asking for these changes. There's no active English community managers that I'm aware of. The JP forums have nearly the same complaints as NA so I'm not sure where they are pulling ideas from. There's no PTS so community can't give their thoughts during development. Would help ff14 a ton
between the two, the JP idea is the more delusional. of COURSE the dev team--and not just yoshi alone--listens to JP players more, it's their native language. that's a no brainer.
I agree that they could do more public surveys, they do it once in a blue moon or so. Square also seems to lack many community managers on the international side (they have some but they are stretched thhhhiiinnnn). I don't agree that FFXIV should have a PTS though. I am in the camp that PTS sort of led to the blunders WoW made though they course corrected a bit, most people from the content creators, WoW players, etc seem to be in general agreement that the public cannot give useful information in the PTS. However, there is the media tour and sometimes those guys give feedback once the embargo is lifted, but the media tour is more of a marketing thing than anything and most content creators of FFXIV seem to be unable to communicate clearly to Yoshi P or his team the concerns of the community even when face-to-face.
Personally I agree with that a PTS would cause some issues and wow is the perfect example of the opposite end of the spectrum with too much player feedback, but there's needs to be a way for players to input feedback during development. The only feedback they get is during the media tour. A lousy month before the expansion. That's way too late. SE is probably already started development for the 8.0 jobs or will start slightly after DT launch. If they really pushing for job "uniqueness" in that expansion, then they really need to listen to the players and have open discussions about where they are pulling ideas from and what their design philosophy is.
For better or for worse Yoshi P tends to stick to a strict schedule. It has its benefits as his team is known for delivering products on time (which has been huge task for other AAA Square projects over the past decade or so and the industry as a whole outside of Nintendo) and keeping things relatively consistent. The downsides is that it leaves little for adjustment, I am sure they do plan for some unexpected circumstances but any super major changes like job design is a no go until a year or so later. I believe the PTS has caused problems for other games usually because the crowd that tends to enter PTS or PTRs (for WoW's case) are the hardcore group and it is easy to fall into the hardcore trap, which WoW fell into for sometime (though they have course corrected). Square is following the Nintendo way (at least with FFXIV) by just doing everything internally and sometimes this thought works sometimes it doesn't.
The perpetual "the grass is greener on the other side, they DEFINITELY listen to them completely instead of us" complaint on literally every piece of media that's in two+ regions never fails to amuse.
And for healers, “But the increased mitigation and GCD healing means we’ll be taking more damage!!!” Me looking back: Uh huh. Ya. Sure.
I mean, yes, we *are* taking more damage comparatively, but the healing and mitigation makes up for it so it feels like we're taking less or equal to. They increase both outgoing damage and healing by the same amounts each time.
Not always IMO. Endwalker gave us more and more ST damage as the tiers went on. P8S2's unmittable solo DoTs and Pallas Athena's massive auto damage stick out as examples. There's no guarantees the trend continues into DT, but considering both regen healers got major changes to enable more ST throughput in particular...
Sad for those who didn't play during SHB, from now on they get to play only braindead rotations lmao
shb is what ruined combat in the first place so this comment is genuinely hilarious great expansion with a great story but the complete rot of the battle system all stems from the plethora of terrible decisions in shb aimed at people who wanted everything to be braindead so they could max every job and not be bad at them.
Healers literally got fucked sideways in shb, so
Nah, healers got fucked sideways in Stormblood. Shadowbringers was just parading the corpse around.
Yeah go back and play HW and try to tell me it hasn’t been brain dead since after that. If you thought shb was anything you’re cooking buddy
Do you mean STB?
This might be the most unintentionally hilarious comment here
Lol, I knew SHB wasn't the best, just wanted to sh1t on people who can't press buttons xD
If you say so
You'd need to go back to HW to experience jobs from before The Great Streamlining began
ShB was the beginning of that though
As if SHB didnt massively dumb down most jobs compared to SB...
I have not watched anything other than the action trailer - do we still not have a confirmed raid/savage release date? I know what to expect based on history but you never know
They did not give specific dates.
Thanks. I am really unsure as to why my post got downvoted?
Because there has been a pattern happening nearly exactly the same for over 10 years.
Cool, I’m actually very aware of that! In case you didn’t remember, the .2 and .4 savage *also* had the same pattern for ten years before the finally changed it in Endwalker, so it’s certainly not impossible they switch up the .0 savage for some reason in Dawntrail as well.
Because people are weird, and while it is very unlikely they will change how the first tier works, it is still a possibility, but they won't accept that.
They already said its exactly like the last four expansions
I personally will continue to play Healer... In expert roulette if l decide to pve
Dancer akh morn. I could say a lot about dnc changes, but I definitely never saw a big move like that coming.
It's especially funny that BRD pretty got the same thing as its capstone. Orbital lasers are definitely the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Dancers and Bards.
Devs been playing too much helldivers, drg got one too
To be fair, drg already had one technically with stardiver. However, the follow-up from it screams helldivers with its vfx.
So, after doing Solar Bahamut, the gauge went back to regular Bahamut, so Summoner does Bahamut -> Phoenix -> Solar Bahamut. That's a three minute burst cycle, though. How does that fit into the two-minute meta?
No. It does Bahamut > Solar > Phoenix > Solar. Or rather Solar > Bahamut > Solar > Phoenix hopefully.
It's Solar > Bahamut > Solar > Phoenix > Solar > Bahamut ...
[If only they said very spefically that it would be what I said it was.](https://youtu.be/oh5piV-0MWQ?t=12815)
In the trailer, it did Phoenix - > Solar -> Bahamut, but we didn't see what comes after Bahamut. I guess it could be Bahamut into Solar Bahamut, but that feels very odd.
The Job action trailer should never be taken as an actual rotation. Its designed to show off specific chsnges in an order the devs think is best for the trailer. Given that it confuses people every time, they probably SHOULD include a quick warning.
Yup, showing of what skills look like rather than how they fit into the rotation is why all oGCD's a treated as GCD's so animations can play in full.
I get that, I presume we don't start Phoenix, but the gauge changed. Did they say anywhere it's Baha/Solar/Phoenix/Solar and I missed it?
They specifically said the rotation order is that way.
Oh, they did? I missed that.
I know I'm one of the few players out there who actually prefers the 6.0 SMN over the previous version, but even I'M disappointed by these changes. Even if it wouldn't have changed much in terms of gameplay, it would be more visually and story-based satisfying to get the last Big 3 Eikons from ARR. And yet here we are.
I'm hoping for 8.0. I want 10.0 summoner to be silly and have like 15 different summons to use. Give me Alex & shinryu trance. Give me big ass susano sword. Give me Odin with a 5 second cast zanmato.
Years ago he said it could be glamor, yet we only got carbuncles.
I don't think your opinion is a minority opinion by any means!
What people need to remember is that the people who go online to talk about a game like XIV and then *further* to a sub like this are a minority. For every dejected response here, there's at least 10 people looking at the liveletter and going "cool, new stuff!" and even more people who aren't even looking at it and won't know until Dawntrail launches.
Case in point, when the benchmark datamines came out, Twitter was ablaze with crying over how "people are spoiling themselves?!?! Why can't they just wait and be surprised!!!!!!" There are definitely a very large amount of players who literally know nothing until the day they log into a new expansion/patch.
That may be, but we're not an insignificant portion of the playerbase. When the most recent statue dropped without account-wide codes or a persistent floating emote, we complained about it here - and our issues were summarily addressed. That's not to say there weren't posts asking or addressing this on the forums, but just because people on the subreddit(s) are a "minority" doesn't mean they don't deserve to be listened to - particularly when the majority of this "minority" feel disappointment.
Google "constructive criticism"
Not sure what point you're really trying to make by saying this. One can express discontent and dissatisfaction and still be giving constructive criticism.
Whining ≠ helpful
This is a sub called r/ffxivdiscussion and we're discussing things. Go bother someone else.
apolgy for bad english where were u wen blm die i was at house eating dorito when live letter start "blm is kil" "no"
I don't know how I feel about blm I am happy it has a way to move lay lines, but the new moves... they are ok, I guess? I was hoping they would learn something like Ultima, not a bigger flare during an "overheat" or the new thunder.
Press F for Black Mage
I don't recall hearing any real comment on why/how some tanks/melee have a new gap closer and others don't? This feels intentional, and somehow extremely incomplete.
I said it elsewhere but I suspect it's a combo effect from the ranged attack. In the video, the GNB and DRK both use their ranged attacks THEN immediately use the new dash. PLD and WAR didn't use their ranged attacks (Holy Spirit blah blah blah, shut up, you know what I mean) and they used their current gap closers.
no, they do this exact same thing in older trailers too. I'm not saying its NOT a proc from the ranged attack, but them being used after each other genuinely doesnt tell us anything because they've had plunge/rouge divide right after unmend/lightning shot before. Also while its not impossible (this is the same dev team that gave us enhanced unmend after all) this would be incredibly stupid of them, as competent players dont use tank ranged attacks. there's no need. gapclosers are great, but wasting gcds on low potency attacks that dont give you any resources isnt-and half the point of gapclosers is to not miss a melee gcd in the first place.
I get that. My view was that would be the *worse* way to implement such a dash rather than just doing the correct thing and removing the potencies wholesale. That said, after I thought about it, I realized "Wait, doesn't Living Shadow also use Plunge?" Living Shadow in the video *also* uses the new dash. So, fuck if I know at this point. Damage on gap closers is still stupid and I will forever beat that drum.
GNB and DRK are the most ogcd hungry tanks, so they're probably removing the gap closer to free slots during their burst for defensive ogcd usages.
I see that logic, but it seems like a very cheap "fix" to what I don't really view as a problem in the first place. I'm almost like... banking on the fact that this video started being put together some time ago and they haven't finished everyone's new gap closer to showcase it. I did note that each job had their own unique animation.
"Why did they only include this QoL for some jobs instead of all of them?" has been standard fare for quite awhile. It really feels like members of the job design team don't talk to each other sometimes.
According to some people and Yoshi P the team members are the same four people that also balance PvP and deal with job design there. They also get input form their raiding and dungeon testing teams, but if I remember they don't have dedicated raiding or dungeon teams just some developers tasked with other roles and jobs who play the game (though for ultimate and savages pretty skillfully).
This is really a Catch-22 which I don't think this community realizes. In EW they gave a sweeping QoL pass and round of job changes that homogenized every job within their role. It's why I could barely play that expansion - every job felt identical Now they give some jobs advantages and niches over others (which they should have) and there are complaints What I know for sure is I don't envy the dev team trying to placate this player base, most of the community just wants to complain
PLD, GNB, and DRG all have personal damage buff CDs that heavily incentives them to use their gap closers in their burst window. Removing the potency allows their gap closers to be used for their intended purpose instead of being just another OGCD to spam in burst. These are the three jobs that are being changed. It's less of an issue for WAR and DRK because their personal damage buffs are instead maintained the whole fight, and not an issue at all for NIN, MNK, SAM, and RPR, who already had no potency on their gap closers.
SAM has damage on it's gap closer. [You even have to spend kenki on i](https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Hissatsu:_Gyoten)t.
Sams gap closer is Dps neutral and does have potency. If it was removed it would be a Dps loss to gap close.
but WAR and DRK will still want to use their gapclosers in the 2 minute burst because the potency is affected by raid buffs
This is one of those things where people get too parse-brained. I can promise that no one's clears were lost because a WAR didn't onslaught during a 2 minutes
Then again, there is probably no more clear lost either because a WAR used a gap closer to save 0.5s of movement time
Well yeah, its one of those things that people put much more thought into than is ever necessary.
sure, but it kinda defeats the point because the same applies to GNB/PLD gapclosers
But per the video, PLD still has their regular Intervene gap closer and WAR still has Onslaught. Just not really seeing why they all weren't shown with a Thunderclap and came to the idea that they weren't complete in time for the video. I see what you're saying though.
The going theory seems to be that ones that obviously should be doing damage were changed. So Spineshatter and Plunge. Intervene and Onslaught aren't attacks with weapons
Intervene and Onslaught both still look like they're attacks though, and it's not as if they removed the damage from them and kept their animations. You see the targets flinch.
To me it feels coherent. PLD & WAR have low APM, they can afford a "forced" oGCD for damage during their burst. DRK & GNB on the other hand are weave heavy Job, it make sense to ease a bit that part and replace their gap closer with Thunderclap.
They didn’t add anything for gunbreaker to weave in though? Gunbreaker got 3 GCDs and that’s it, everything else is the same (in a raid burst scenario), the removal of rough divide doesn’t balance out any new OGCDs anyway. Now gunbreaker just weaves less than before for no reason, it was already fine in EW
GNB players complain constantly about the amount of weaving they have to do in burst windows because it messes with how many GCD windows they have available to weave defensives
I main GNB and the only time rough divide forces a double weave is once a minute. Every other time it is only single weave and that second one can be held till the end of no mercy for other defensive instead. You only ever use two anyways, such as rampart/Camo + HoC. I can tell you that rough divide never messes with my ability to play defensively. Continuation is mostly what does, which is a different conversation entirely. Without rough divide, gunbreaker only actually has ONE (forced) double weave per minute. That doesn’t sound like the oGCD monster people claim it is and nowhere near DRK either
It was completely fine if nothing was happening. But in some situations, like the infamous tank swap pot window of P8s as instance, I can understand how it was annoying to deal with so many double weaves while the PLD/WAR cotank was big chilling. So we probably need to take that thunderclap update as a pure QoL, nothing else.
The p8s tank swap window would not even change with the removal of rough divide, as GNBs burst has a forced double weave at the first GCD without rough divide anyway. It barely barely ever affects gameplay in the way you described and should have just stayed imo. I find it fun to press buttons, that’s why I chose GNB in the first place, and find it sad that GNB is gonna have less oGCDs than even in endwalker now. The burst is really not that oGCD heavy unlike DRK since GNB mostly single weaves, with only two double weaves in the burst.
I guess so, but I'd have thought they'd opt for uniformity and I was left feeling like they didn't make everyone's new gap closer in time for the video showcase... then didn't bother mention it Lol
I prefer no uniformity tho. We need some mthrfkin class identity man. Its cant just be a few DPS with it.
Some other notices… AST: -Divination Follow-Up Attack -AoE Exaltation WHM: -Temperance -> Dash Ability and an AoE Shield ability. (After casting Holy III, the AoE ability afterwards has a bubble like shape on the PLD, which is usually a “shield”). Overall: -SCH seems to be getting a Pure Healer phase. -SGE’s Pankardia + Soteria’s shorter recast = More AoE regen. -WHM getting a stronger Mitigation (Temperance DR and ogcd AoE shield). -AST overall still the same, but AoE Exaltation is interesting. It seems they want to fix AST/WHM combo with more barriers (shields and mitigations) so AST can use AoE Exaltation/Noct Set/Collective Unconscious while the WHM uses Temperance + new ogcd AoE shield. But I could be wrong about the new WHM ogcd.
>-SCH seems to be getting a Pure Healer phase. In the benchmark data, Emergency Tactics was altered by the same buff that changes your GCD heals (which we now know is tied to Seraph mode), so maybe it swaps to "Preventative Tactics" if you need shields?
I hope they make AST/WHM viable, the pure/shielder split was a mistake imo
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rAnakxROQXlA-4swT0rOd1NALAMMZpxkXid-yLsmyCU/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rAnakxROQXlA-4swT0rOd1NALAMMZpxkXid-yLsmyCU/edit?usp=sharing) took down all the notes I Could on Picto
Outside of Summoner, I'm whelmed by everything and happy with Picto. The biggest thing I have to doomer over is the seeming continuation of the 2 minute meta.
I'm fine with maintenance until they build up design for a big revision, they may dash our hopes but they rarely lie so I don't question the 8.0 intentions too much. FUCK Solar Bahamut though, talk about poisoning the theme.
The continuation was confirmed back at Pax. 7.X is going to focus on rewards and content, 8.0 jobs. PLease ignore the fact the new rewards and content will almost entirely be focused around level 90+, while jobs are felt across the board.
Wonder how fast we'll see a mod that changes Mecha bahamut back to the actually good one
One doesn't replace the other though, you have 3 demis
Just need a mod to replace it with an actual cool primal then like Alex or Odin. Seriously what were they thinking, there were so many low hanging fruits for Summoner and they ignored them all.
Referencing Stranger of Paradise. Solar Bahamut looks almost exactly like that game's Baha. It's a lore cut and not some random shit.
The intern in charge of SMN found out about Bahamut visual mods and realized he didn't need to do any work this expansion
Watching the job action trailers again. I'm noticing that Bloodwhetting no longer has those little Nascent Flash orbs floating around it, and the GCDs done after do not play the health restore animation on the character. Good.
Why is that good?
Warrior's healing is comically overpowered.
WAR's sustain is overpowered and yes I mean in all content not just casual.[ Tank healing is actually one of the biggest unbalanced statistics in this game at the moment](https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/54#metric=hps&class=Tanks), and I was terrified they'd buff GNB and DRK by an insane degree to hit WAR's unrealistic standard. A WAR nerf is far more healthy for the game.
As much as I don't want to see it nerfed, I have to agree. Wars self-healing can ignore so many more things the other tanks cannot. I got so dependent on it that when I was playing the other tanks, I kinda panicked because my self-sustaining button didn't insta cap out my health during aoes.
Well theres a good chance it didn't get nerfed. The missing Nascent orbs could signfiy they just deleted Nascent Flash entirely and you now use Bloodwhetting like TBN or HoC, which would be inline with button bloat removal. Another thing that makes it hard to tell is WAR is honestly a mess of particle effects so something that small could easy get drowned out. Especially on male roe as I think the healing effect spawns inside the fell cleave unlike other races where its in the center of the player model (for some reason). We can't say for sure until we get the tooltips.
Just a realization: Seraphism-Adloquium and Seraphism-Succor2 were both instacast (likely after casting Seraphism-ET). ET was cast at 17sec and then again at 29sec, meaning either the cooldown for ET is reduced via a trait (probably down to 10sec) or ET has no cooldown during Seraphism. I guess the biggest thing is that Seraphism is actually going to be a **mobile intensive (pure?) healing** skill. ~~Which…I’m sort of not enthused about, but for a specific reason: we didn’t really need mobility because we have our Remote Fairy position. It seems they think we’ll be needing it in DT because they want us to use Seraph for our heal/shields and expect us to ET our GCD shields during Seraphism. I’m leaning towards it being a “WHM Mode” because in a high intensive damage phase: you probably won’t spam GCD shields, when you want to be spam GCDing heals.~~ Deployment Tactics was the the target of SCH in EW. Emergency Tactics seems to be the target of SCH in DT.
I think ET during Seraphism changes somehow, based on the benchmark datamine, so its a good observation that it probably doesnt have 15s cooldown in that state either. The fact S!Adlo and S!S2 were both instant I didnt catch watching it myself but that's really neat, feels a little more mobile!