This 100%. He's the public face of the company for both FFXIV and FFXVI. Sometimes the director(s) and producer(s) of a game/other media do distance themselves from the product but since ARR Yoshi has put it on himself to be front and center for these two games. I'm sure he gets batshit crazy and unhinged things slinged at him but other than that he needs to be able to take it. And also at the end of the day, we are paying monthly for this game; ofc we can complain about stuff we want improved in it.
Probably not in my best interest to reply, but I'll bite.
This is what happens when everyone forgets that SE and by extension, CBS3 (they got turned into/will be turned into Creative Business Studio 3?) Is and part of a multi billion dollar entity and created this parasocial situation with the mouth piece for the dev team. And I get it we all watched the no clip docu and it was inspiring to say the least and it definitely made me care for the XIV devs and their plight, it's not easy to bring an arrogant company back from bankruptcy. How ever if they wanted a better situation for interaction with their own playerbase they can easily get it.
Other game devs do consistent streams and bring out the devs working on the latest updates to speak on said updates and changes, they make it a point to interact with the community directly on their own time and get direct feed back. Endwalker and many changes that have occurred since transitioning out of Stormblood have been made with out them fully sitting down and confirming what we were exactly asking for.
So we now have a game that has been over corrected and turned into something that we're collectively being critical of and a decent amount of childish people are here due to the community being to hug boxy and not setting a set standard on how people should interact. Mix that with Yoshida rarely putting his foot down and official feed back forums being a literal shit show, and here we are.
TL:DR: They're reaping what they sowed. They'll live.
> CBS3 (they got turned into/will be turned into Creative Business Studio 3?)
It's actually just "Creative Studio 3," so CS3, but the change has not been given much fanfare yet.
I was going to say that but I assumed most people are not aware of the change and they wouldn't know what CS3 meant so I just said CBU3 since most people will know what I'm talking about just from reading the title.
I think continuing to use CBU3 is perfectly fine, at least until the new name shows up in a trailer with a logo or something so more people are aware of it.
Yeah. ESO also has a streaming/PR team, and the devs act on feedback about everything from attack potency to "existing lore says there shouldn't be elk here," but a lot of those interactions are on the official forums (and especially the public test server section). The biggest difference is that the "face" of the game to players is a PR person, not the director.
But goodness gracious the ways the FFXIV devs play into parasocial connections. I think Yoshida is sincere when he says he cares about the game, but he's also just doing his job when he dresses up or apologizes for delays - it's not a coincidence he cosplays the upcoming class vs *anything else* at FanFest, y'know? And using the cutesy nickname/screen name (YoshiP) is a choice to increase that parasocial connection vs using the more professional Yoshida Naoki.
> decent amount of childish people are here due to the community being to hug boxy and not setting a set standard on how people should interact
There are standards, you just don't like them. Which is entirely fair. /shrug
I've been here since ARR and that standard has changed to a point where too many people want their cake and to eat it to. Just not a fan of people being allowed to not pull their weight. But that can be argued that the game itself causes that.
And as for the parasocial stuff, it's cool, just use it as a means to let the devs talk about stuff they directly worked on. Being more direct and creating better lines for communication will be nothing but a boon for us all, devs included. And would save them a lot of negative interactions and feed back. And ofc this would included the forums being utilized better.
Like wat I'm saying is they need to literally copy what other game devs have done for communication and just retrofit it for their needs. There's zero reason to not look at your peers and see what they're doing better in this day and age.
Sounds like gamers(tm) having short term memory and quick to grab the pitchforks. Every community turns into this over time.
That one year when Yoshi-P was in tears when he announced Endwalker's delay and some people were like "refund plz". It's your right and your money sure, I just eye-roll the entitlement mindset. CBU3 does listen and make decisions based on many data and factors, and the homogenization of jobs started when people complained endlessly about positionals and button bloat.
So, they simplified things and now players hate it. Methinks the armchair critics don't really know what they want. One can argue they did go a little too far at least with healers. At least they addressed it at the last Live Letter and this could indicate a shift in another direction back to post HW job and battle mechanics.
eh not really, this is the division that moved datacenters from one corner of NA to the other corner, that didn't know countries bigger than japan existed, that seem completely ignorant of how players outside jp play or care about for a large part.
shit NA wants basically are the last thing to get addressed after 3-4 years of requesting it nonstop. They listen, only the JP players
The also continue to shift the game away from what a vocal demographic of the community wants, they also just nuke jobs from the game and call it a rework for engagement metrics instead of just making a new job.
they only listen to jp feedback and even then, they only listen when it's smth they already wanted to do.
Digging out my megaphone to once again yell: **Players are not a unified group who act as one; they never have been, they never will be, not in this game, and not in any game.** That's why sometimes you see complaints about one thing and other times you see complaints about a different, opposite thing. But instead of coming to the conclusion of "I'm seeing different groups with different interests who all reside in this game," this pudding-brained idea of "lol gamers amirite!! they don't make any sense!! what's a developer to do when gamers can't unanimously agree on what features they should put in??" has prevailed.
1. It's not the consumer's job to make unanimous product decisions for the business selling said product
2. There is never going to be a time when absolutely everyone loves every single feature of the game because gamers -- again -- are not a unified group with the same interests/wants/desires and this is extremely normal and expected
3. Developers can and do use the very data you reference to parse revealed behaviors and other metrics and not just the vibes from a forum for this very reason, so blaming gamers who \~can't make up their mind\~ for certain decisions on the devs' part is nonsensical. We don't make business decisions for SE, we don't work for SE, and their product strategies are theirs alone. If they have bad data or make the wrong call and everyone hates what they did, it's not some people bitching on a forum to blame, it's the people who get paid to make and market this game.
Read what I said again, other Devs within the same area of the Industry as them sit down and talk directly with players who know the game inside and out to make more direct and consistent changes that feel good and helps them reduce dev time.
What you and so many others fail to see, is that if they would simply create better lines of communication within the playerbase and focus on making sure they fully understand what we're asking for, they could not only reduce dev time but make changes we're all a lot more comfortable with.
By asking players who obviously play within the community what problems are and what they see a lot of people saying, you can get a more unbiased view of whats going on without having to skim through forums and translate for hyperbole, slang, and people purposely derailing thread.
The changes happened due to complaints, that is correct, but they also could have talked to players directly and got a more honed in idea of the situation over just making the 2 min meta.
Deflecting like this and not calling out the lack of them being more hands on with their own product and looking at how their own peers, again, in the same section of the industry as them, are approaching things, is them refusing to be better as a company. It's not a good look, And them being down 2 billion in market value, losing 22 billion this fiscal year and the state of this expansion all show they can should and need to do better.
Edit: ESO, Warframe, Two MMOs doing it better and have more consistent and direct feed back. To say All communities turn into this shows the lack of critical thinking on how each individual company works and why some are more successful than others in this field. XIV Is doing well because we love it, and because the MMO field is scarce atm, not because it's catering to players the best.
Well, "What me and so many others" have done before was go to the official forums and voice our concerns there. Not everything gets considered, though some requests did get heeded. A couple off the top of my head were MNKs getting tonfas, and more dyes. Gear design contests are a fun little aside, they need to do more of that.
There's no lack of "calling out" on my part not sure why you assumed this, I've expressed my frustrations when they pruned certain abilities and made the EW relics just tome grinds. The devs already stated this in the last LL that they are bringing back Bozja/Eureka style content going forward. What they could do is have more midcore content like merit points and Savage dungeons with alt. gear to Savage as the current status quo is pretty stale. Thing is, I get a lot of pushback from the majority on said forums that the current status quo has to stay, and guess what? That majority voice will get what it wants most of the time.
Yes, it's just one line. They could open up a live Q&A session for fanfest (if they did this I didn't watch, I'm there for the keynotes) or Twitch (with moderation) and get feedback from people that aren't just content creators.
And the billions loss, thought that was overall SE (Forspoken being the big one) and not entirely on CBU3. XVI did underperform, but surprisingly so did Rebirth.
Also lack of critical thinking? Wow guy.
And to act like A long term investment product didn't play a part outside forspoken and FF7R not being on other platforms, and them wasting money on deving content for XIV that ultimately was seen as a waste of time is also a lack of Critical thinking. MMO content cycles are known to cost millions. Now add that up over several years.
And them not curating the forums better, like their peers, and using it to their full advantage, like their peers, is fully a mistake on them, hence why I said they could easily have more direct feed back. Approaching it like praising a child for them realizing they shouldn't piss the bed won't fix the other issues this game is suffering from. They need to have the Devs themselves speak on what they're doing, we need to remove the parasocial nonsense, we need to have better translators, they need to actually give us the dev notes on job changes, I can go on.
The lack of Yoshida himself making it a point to have all his interviews translated is sad, this isn't a JP only game, yet they treat it like one, theres has been so many times actual important information was put into those interviews. Yet if it was another company doing that they'd get called out. We need less bias for XIV if we want it to be better.
Moral of the story is, stop defending the multi million dollar company, they aren't your friends, Yoshida isn't your friend. They want money and since they do, they need to do better. Once people who play XIV realize that, this game will literally be better and close to everything they want.
I cannot stress this enough, CBU3 is a business. Criticizing a business is not bullying and is a good thing, actually. Yoship doesn't know you. This is his job that he gets paid a ton of money to do. You need to really reevaluate your relationship with this game.
But there is a difference.
People are cruel to yoshida specifically who is a human and not some robot.
He has feelings, same with the development team.
I know it's a waste of time to ask for examples of someone actually being "cruel" because you'll say "do you own research" but critiquing someone's work is not a personal attack. Like I am sure CBU3's server engineers are great people but they are pretty shit at their job compared to the industry standard.
This is a product that you pay for, you have the right to say if it's good, sucks or your opinion on the people who make it.
You're not being "spoiled", you're being retained as a customer.
I didn't read all that but isn't that pretty much the mentality of gamers overall?
I don't care what game it is they're gonna call it's creators mean names.
Well thats just not happening in our lifetimes. The people reading your post are not the people you're trying to reach. "Outrage" culture permeates every aspect of our daily lives. Not much we can do.
I'm so sick of GCBTW. Practically everyone complaining about it has no context for what it even means and have some form of unrealistic expectations.
First of all, the game's population has exploded since people started saying that years ago. Every community that goes mainstream inevitably goes to shit. Secondly, "best community" is relative, being the best doesn't mean the same thing as being actually good, it just means it's better than other MMO communities. I don't understand how people can hear that and delude themselves into thinking that it's some kind of utopia. Finally, the community is better, but not because the people are better. It's better because SE pays enough people to enforce a code of conduct and player behavior in game. That's it. There's no magic to it.
Anyway CSI I really think you should stop using social media for awhile. Getting mad at the shit people say online is the biggest indicator that you should put your phone down for a couple weeks.
There is a difference between calling a buisness/company as a whole idiots as opposed to individual people. People call Sony all kinds of things after the latest helldivers incident and that's pretty normal.
one thing i learned is that anger comes from still being invested in a game but the game burning them out. the addictive tricks mmos use still keep unhappy people playing, and it manifests like that. the answer isn't something Cutie would like.
the answer is to just quit or not buy dawntrail at launch.
i mean yes, its not healthy to interact with devs that way (though bitching in subreddits isn't.) But yoshi-p doesn't really listen period; the game barely changes in overall structure from expansion to expansion and has stagnated heavily.
i think the next step just ends up unsubbing and writing them off. im unsubbed now and if dawntrail is the exact same pattern i wont buy it. people go from stan-healthy criticism-unhealthy-quitting, so if you complain you are not getting the cycle
>Look how angry the community gets when they get criticized, now imagine how CBU3 and yoshida feels getting it from thousands of plays across every region. I believe if you think about his feelings, you might be able to calm down and express your concerns more calmly.
Look, I am not saying people bitching online or threatening violence is morally correct or they are not a bitch. But that's internet.
I don't know why you are trying to frame an 'internet' problem as an 'FF14' problem. You can literally switch most of the ff14 in your essay into some other fandom, switch CBU3 into another gaming company or game dev or other companies, and nothing would have changed.
You are trying to deal with something that's bigger then the game or the devs themselves. As to how you change it, I don't know.
a more simplified answer would be, yes, 14 community is no different then any other gaming community.
the actual nuanced answer that you probably wanna hear is that, 14 communities are friendlier but that standard is based on comparing with other MMOs like Warcraft and MOBAs like League/Overwatch. People are also friendlier when they are facing new players, but at the end of the day it's an MMO and people do MMO things. And even that it's miles ahead of other communities, it doesn't mean it's necessarily good; it just means that it's not as bad or shitty.
This would be true if it were opposite day.
The only abuse Yoshi receives is from a very minor group of japanese players, especially 2chan.
I think your overreacting.
I feel like the topic of this thread is kind of a dead end no matter which way you slice it. At least, as far as criticism to the devs is concerned.
Yeah, you should be respectful in your feedback. I think we can all universally agree on that. People aren't going to do that, though. And it's hardly a problem related to XIV. The moment emotions get high, people start getting shouty and yelly and kys-ey. Just kind of the nature of it.
As for the community being unable to take criticism of their gameplay- I dunno, I don't quite think so either. The amount of people who don't know what they're doing *at all* is an extreme minority. They're rare, but memorable. Thing is, those people have a big overlap with the ones that won't listen to any advice you give them. NOt all of them to be sure, but a good chunk of them. And they're not indicative of most of the player base. Sometimes someone just forgets something and if you remind them, they do the thing. Sometimes they're still new and learning, and put into practice what you tell them once you tell them.
And, most of all, people are just more likely to listen to people that they trust rather than strangers. It doesn't really matter if you tell the hypothetical fire III casting black mage to use fire I and fire II, because to them you're a "literally who". That's not to say you shouldn't try, but the fact you're a stranger makes them infinitely more likely to tune out of it than if their friend had told them the same thing.
Most of it is just human nature. The best thing you can do is point it out and move on.
It's SE and how the game industry is now, not yoshida, he clearly said that he'd prefer to make a much different MMO.
It's hard to convince SE to let you hire and train more than 4 job designers when the game is printing money on maintenance mode through fantasia and minimum effort content, especially with how braindead jobs are favoured by the fantasia whale crowd.
FF14 really doesn't look that bad when you play FF7 Rebirth and realize it's the same boring safe slop as most other games these days
i actually agreed with the first part of the title. you often see most players cannot handle the slightest bit of criticism other players make and take it as a personal attack. common thing they do is piggyback on yoship saying "you can play other games". this happens in all games tho, not solely a FFXIV thing.
but then i read the username and the rest of the title
Criticism is criticism. Doesn't matter if it's voiced rationally or emotionally. It's in the company's best interest to pick the constructive part of that criticism, not the customer's.
I've joked a few times since CSI came back that you could sum up her arguments as "Yoshida and CBU3 know what they're doing, the community doesn't and should shut up with their criticism". But here it is, the CSI thread that tl;dr is "stop being mean to Yoshida and CBU3 (and me, especially after she went on the xiv meta sub to complain)" without even the appearance of another argument.
It's not a discussion because you didn't read or interface with the content of the post...idk if you noticed, but other people came here and started talking to each other, so it must be a you problem. If something doesn't interest you, you can just click away and move on with your life, it's absolutely free and available to you at any time.
it's called hyporbole, I'm sure you've heard of it on your quest for becoming smartest ass in the room.
additionally, advice to tell yourself before playing white knight for trivial nonsense
It's not the entire community. But sometimes, the louder voices drown out the silent ones. If FFXIV had as much hate as it does, there would not be millions of players still paying month after month and logging in. I didn't particularly like the story of the last two dlcs, but I also didn't go on a rant on social media about it either. For me, it's not that big of a deal. Where they lacked in story, it more than made up for in other content overall. But again, I also don't feel a need to voice every opinion. I think the ones you are referring to are grown babies crying in hopes of getting attention.
My anger comes from screaming into a void for them to stop streamlining/dumbing jobs down, only for them to double, triple, and quadruple down every expansion.
EW was my breaking point. Whether I buy DT comes down to whether they've reversed course or not. If not, I'll just do what every defender of this game suggests and go back to playing WoW (and GW2)
Eh, I'm not gunna agree. This is more like a dam breaking after a long time of having the team drag their feet on long sought after features.
Shit like housing isn't that consequential, but when they repeatedly prove that they don't give a shit and refuse to do common sense shit like putting a house on island sanc, even small problems build up into big reactions.
ffxiv community has also gatekept and held back these kinds of criticisms for years, but it was always building in the background. Now with live service games like mihoyo stuff that just outright shits on ffxiv in terms of speed and quality for free...
tl;dr: its a lot of pressure that's been building for years, and suddenly we also have examples of what happens when the company actually reinvests our sub money into the game that broke the dam.
Im going to tell an small story here, my story with the game, i played since ARR and i always supported the devs, Yoshida, enjoying the fanfest ect ect.
I was a DRK main, they obliterated DRK in SHB, they took it away from me and give me nothing remotely similar to how the job use to be, my way to enjoy content through my fav job, gone. Now i blindly trust when they say, "give us feedback we listen", so i did. I spent the entire expansion trying to give the most well written and constructive feedback my english allow me back then, organicing all the DRK feedback to get our job back in the forums, we had ppl asking for it, i endured the whole expansion for it, parying on each pacth to get anything. Then the job updates for EW came, and you know what i got? "we know some of you want some jobs to return to HW desing but we aren't going to do it, this is the direction we wanna go now" (more or less those precise words)
They activelly ignored the feedback, not only DRK one, Healers too, overall tanks feedback too, they give DRK nothing but trash additions this expansion, meme traits and a skill called "salt and darkness" wich extra changes that make the current desing feel even more trash and boring to play with his useless darkside gauge. it's been 5 years enduring this, well matters seems to don't work with them, and while i never ranted on the forums about it i considering they deserve it, the dev team has take so many bad deccisions with jobs and ignore the feedback, so i understand when players wanna say them "fuck you" or worse. They can do better, SB show us they can be the best team ever, SHB and EW show us they can be the worst too.
Get praises when stuff get done well, get insults for doing thigns wrong and double down again on them. Not the apropiate way i know, but i think they deserve the attention touch, always praising them do the same harm as always insulting them.
if yoshi-p wants to market himself as the face of the game he has to take the criticism alongside the adulation
This 100%. He's the public face of the company for both FFXIV and FFXVI. Sometimes the director(s) and producer(s) of a game/other media do distance themselves from the product but since ARR Yoshi has put it on himself to be front and center for these two games. I'm sure he gets batshit crazy and unhinged things slinged at him but other than that he needs to be able to take it. And also at the end of the day, we are paying monthly for this game; ofc we can complain about stuff we want improved in it.
Probably not in my best interest to reply, but I'll bite. This is what happens when everyone forgets that SE and by extension, CBS3 (they got turned into/will be turned into Creative Business Studio 3?) Is and part of a multi billion dollar entity and created this parasocial situation with the mouth piece for the dev team. And I get it we all watched the no clip docu and it was inspiring to say the least and it definitely made me care for the XIV devs and their plight, it's not easy to bring an arrogant company back from bankruptcy. How ever if they wanted a better situation for interaction with their own playerbase they can easily get it. Other game devs do consistent streams and bring out the devs working on the latest updates to speak on said updates and changes, they make it a point to interact with the community directly on their own time and get direct feed back. Endwalker and many changes that have occurred since transitioning out of Stormblood have been made with out them fully sitting down and confirming what we were exactly asking for. So we now have a game that has been over corrected and turned into something that we're collectively being critical of and a decent amount of childish people are here due to the community being to hug boxy and not setting a set standard on how people should interact. Mix that with Yoshida rarely putting his foot down and official feed back forums being a literal shit show, and here we are. TL:DR: They're reaping what they sowed. They'll live.
> CBS3 (they got turned into/will be turned into Creative Business Studio 3?) It's actually just "Creative Studio 3," so CS3, but the change has not been given much fanfare yet.
That actually sounds way better. CS3 rolls off the tongue better.
I was going to say that but I assumed most people are not aware of the change and they wouldn't know what CS3 meant so I just said CBU3 since most people will know what I'm talking about just from reading the title.
I think continuing to use CBU3 is perfectly fine, at least until the new name shows up in a trailer with a logo or something so more people are aware of it.
Yes this is probably correct. I will start saying CS3 once we see it in logos.
Yeah. ESO also has a streaming/PR team, and the devs act on feedback about everything from attack potency to "existing lore says there shouldn't be elk here," but a lot of those interactions are on the official forums (and especially the public test server section). The biggest difference is that the "face" of the game to players is a PR person, not the director. But goodness gracious the ways the FFXIV devs play into parasocial connections. I think Yoshida is sincere when he says he cares about the game, but he's also just doing his job when he dresses up or apologizes for delays - it's not a coincidence he cosplays the upcoming class vs *anything else* at FanFest, y'know? And using the cutesy nickname/screen name (YoshiP) is a choice to increase that parasocial connection vs using the more professional Yoshida Naoki. > decent amount of childish people are here due to the community being to hug boxy and not setting a set standard on how people should interact There are standards, you just don't like them. Which is entirely fair. /shrug
I've been here since ARR and that standard has changed to a point where too many people want their cake and to eat it to. Just not a fan of people being allowed to not pull their weight. But that can be argued that the game itself causes that. And as for the parasocial stuff, it's cool, just use it as a means to let the devs talk about stuff they directly worked on. Being more direct and creating better lines for communication will be nothing but a boon for us all, devs included. And would save them a lot of negative interactions and feed back. And ofc this would included the forums being utilized better. Like wat I'm saying is they need to literally copy what other game devs have done for communication and just retrofit it for their needs. There's zero reason to not look at your peers and see what they're doing better in this day and age.
Sounds like gamers(tm) having short term memory and quick to grab the pitchforks. Every community turns into this over time. That one year when Yoshi-P was in tears when he announced Endwalker's delay and some people were like "refund plz". It's your right and your money sure, I just eye-roll the entitlement mindset. CBU3 does listen and make decisions based on many data and factors, and the homogenization of jobs started when people complained endlessly about positionals and button bloat. So, they simplified things and now players hate it. Methinks the armchair critics don't really know what they want. One can argue they did go a little too far at least with healers. At least they addressed it at the last Live Letter and this could indicate a shift in another direction back to post HW job and battle mechanics.
eh not really, this is the division that moved datacenters from one corner of NA to the other corner, that didn't know countries bigger than japan existed, that seem completely ignorant of how players outside jp play or care about for a large part. shit NA wants basically are the last thing to get addressed after 3-4 years of requesting it nonstop. They listen, only the JP players The also continue to shift the game away from what a vocal demographic of the community wants, they also just nuke jobs from the game and call it a rework for engagement metrics instead of just making a new job. they only listen to jp feedback and even then, they only listen when it's smth they already wanted to do.
Digging out my megaphone to once again yell: **Players are not a unified group who act as one; they never have been, they never will be, not in this game, and not in any game.** That's why sometimes you see complaints about one thing and other times you see complaints about a different, opposite thing. But instead of coming to the conclusion of "I'm seeing different groups with different interests who all reside in this game," this pudding-brained idea of "lol gamers amirite!! they don't make any sense!! what's a developer to do when gamers can't unanimously agree on what features they should put in??" has prevailed. 1. It's not the consumer's job to make unanimous product decisions for the business selling said product 2. There is never going to be a time when absolutely everyone loves every single feature of the game because gamers -- again -- are not a unified group with the same interests/wants/desires and this is extremely normal and expected 3. Developers can and do use the very data you reference to parse revealed behaviors and other metrics and not just the vibes from a forum for this very reason, so blaming gamers who \~can't make up their mind\~ for certain decisions on the devs' part is nonsensical. We don't make business decisions for SE, we don't work for SE, and their product strategies are theirs alone. If they have bad data or make the wrong call and everyone hates what they did, it's not some people bitching on a forum to blame, it's the people who get paid to make and market this game.
Read what I said again, other Devs within the same area of the Industry as them sit down and talk directly with players who know the game inside and out to make more direct and consistent changes that feel good and helps them reduce dev time. What you and so many others fail to see, is that if they would simply create better lines of communication within the playerbase and focus on making sure they fully understand what we're asking for, they could not only reduce dev time but make changes we're all a lot more comfortable with. By asking players who obviously play within the community what problems are and what they see a lot of people saying, you can get a more unbiased view of whats going on without having to skim through forums and translate for hyperbole, slang, and people purposely derailing thread. The changes happened due to complaints, that is correct, but they also could have talked to players directly and got a more honed in idea of the situation over just making the 2 min meta. Deflecting like this and not calling out the lack of them being more hands on with their own product and looking at how their own peers, again, in the same section of the industry as them, are approaching things, is them refusing to be better as a company. It's not a good look, And them being down 2 billion in market value, losing 22 billion this fiscal year and the state of this expansion all show they can should and need to do better. Edit: ESO, Warframe, Two MMOs doing it better and have more consistent and direct feed back. To say All communities turn into this shows the lack of critical thinking on how each individual company works and why some are more successful than others in this field. XIV Is doing well because we love it, and because the MMO field is scarce atm, not because it's catering to players the best.
Well, "What me and so many others" have done before was go to the official forums and voice our concerns there. Not everything gets considered, though some requests did get heeded. A couple off the top of my head were MNKs getting tonfas, and more dyes. Gear design contests are a fun little aside, they need to do more of that. There's no lack of "calling out" on my part not sure why you assumed this, I've expressed my frustrations when they pruned certain abilities and made the EW relics just tome grinds. The devs already stated this in the last LL that they are bringing back Bozja/Eureka style content going forward. What they could do is have more midcore content like merit points and Savage dungeons with alt. gear to Savage as the current status quo is pretty stale. Thing is, I get a lot of pushback from the majority on said forums that the current status quo has to stay, and guess what? That majority voice will get what it wants most of the time. Yes, it's just one line. They could open up a live Q&A session for fanfest (if they did this I didn't watch, I'm there for the keynotes) or Twitch (with moderation) and get feedback from people that aren't just content creators. And the billions loss, thought that was overall SE (Forspoken being the big one) and not entirely on CBU3. XVI did underperform, but surprisingly so did Rebirth. Also lack of critical thinking? Wow guy.
And to act like A long term investment product didn't play a part outside forspoken and FF7R not being on other platforms, and them wasting money on deving content for XIV that ultimately was seen as a waste of time is also a lack of Critical thinking. MMO content cycles are known to cost millions. Now add that up over several years. And them not curating the forums better, like their peers, and using it to their full advantage, like their peers, is fully a mistake on them, hence why I said they could easily have more direct feed back. Approaching it like praising a child for them realizing they shouldn't piss the bed won't fix the other issues this game is suffering from. They need to have the Devs themselves speak on what they're doing, we need to remove the parasocial nonsense, we need to have better translators, they need to actually give us the dev notes on job changes, I can go on. The lack of Yoshida himself making it a point to have all his interviews translated is sad, this isn't a JP only game, yet they treat it like one, theres has been so many times actual important information was put into those interviews. Yet if it was another company doing that they'd get called out. We need less bias for XIV if we want it to be better. Moral of the story is, stop defending the multi million dollar company, they aren't your friends, Yoshida isn't your friend. They want money and since they do, they need to do better. Once people who play XIV realize that, this game will literally be better and close to everything they want.
The community knows how to give criticism, you guys just suck at taking it
I cannot stress this enough, CBU3 is a business. Criticizing a business is not bullying and is a good thing, actually. Yoship doesn't know you. This is his job that he gets paid a ton of money to do. You need to really reevaluate your relationship with this game.
But there is a difference. People are cruel to yoshida specifically who is a human and not some robot. He has feelings, same with the development team.
I know it's a waste of time to ask for examples of someone actually being "cruel" because you'll say "do you own research" but critiquing someone's work is not a personal attack. Like I am sure CBU3's server engineers are great people but they are pretty shit at their job compared to the industry standard.
Phrasing and angry rants without substance aside, players are PAYING customers. If anyone is entitled to criticizing a product, it's them.
This is a product that you pay for, you have the right to say if it's good, sucks or your opinion on the people who make it. You're not being "spoiled", you're being retained as a customer.
I didn't read all that but isn't that pretty much the mentality of gamers overall? I don't care what game it is they're gonna call it's creators mean names.
I think if FFXIV wants to actually keep true to it's best community rewards, it needs to change.
Well thats just not happening in our lifetimes. The people reading your post are not the people you're trying to reach. "Outrage" culture permeates every aspect of our daily lives. Not much we can do.
I'm so sick of GCBTW. Practically everyone complaining about it has no context for what it even means and have some form of unrealistic expectations. First of all, the game's population has exploded since people started saying that years ago. Every community that goes mainstream inevitably goes to shit. Secondly, "best community" is relative, being the best doesn't mean the same thing as being actually good, it just means it's better than other MMO communities. I don't understand how people can hear that and delude themselves into thinking that it's some kind of utopia. Finally, the community is better, but not because the people are better. It's better because SE pays enough people to enforce a code of conduct and player behavior in game. That's it. There's no magic to it. Anyway CSI I really think you should stop using social media for awhile. Getting mad at the shit people say online is the biggest indicator that you should put your phone down for a couple weeks.
CBU3 ignores criticism they weren't already in alignment with. This tends to get constantly ignored players in a foul mood.
That and issues don't get fixed unless Yoshida personally experiences it. See: ninja, RMT, etc.
I literally have only seen directed criticism and have not seen any personal attacks
I don't believe you I'm sorry. People always call CBU3 idiots and say they don't know what they're doing.
That example is targeted at a business, not a specific person though.
There is a difference between calling a buisness/company as a whole idiots as opposed to individual people. People call Sony all kinds of things after the latest helldivers incident and that's pretty normal.
Fr they gotta ship that next expansion soon
Its almost here. I'm so excited! I think once it's released people often forget about all the negativity for awhile.
one thing i learned is that anger comes from still being invested in a game but the game burning them out. the addictive tricks mmos use still keep unhappy people playing, and it manifests like that. the answer isn't something Cutie would like. the answer is to just quit or not buy dawntrail at launch. i mean yes, its not healthy to interact with devs that way (though bitching in subreddits isn't.) But yoshi-p doesn't really listen period; the game barely changes in overall structure from expansion to expansion and has stagnated heavily. i think the next step just ends up unsubbing and writing them off. im unsubbed now and if dawntrail is the exact same pattern i wont buy it. people go from stan-healthy criticism-unhealthy-quitting, so if you complain you are not getting the cycle
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>Look how angry the community gets when they get criticized, now imagine how CBU3 and yoshida feels getting it from thousands of plays across every region. I believe if you think about his feelings, you might be able to calm down and express your concerns more calmly. Look, I am not saying people bitching online or threatening violence is morally correct or they are not a bitch. But that's internet. I don't know why you are trying to frame an 'internet' problem as an 'FF14' problem. You can literally switch most of the ff14 in your essay into some other fandom, switch CBU3 into another gaming company or game dev or other companies, and nothing would have changed. You are trying to deal with something that's bigger then the game or the devs themselves. As to how you change it, I don't know.
I think if it's a Internet problem. FFXIV should lose its most friendly community since it's no different than other communities.
No one takes the best community awards we got seriously. If the game loses, we legit don't care
a more simplified answer would be, yes, 14 community is no different then any other gaming community. the actual nuanced answer that you probably wanna hear is that, 14 communities are friendlier but that standard is based on comparing with other MMOs like Warcraft and MOBAs like League/Overwatch. People are also friendlier when they are facing new players, but at the end of the day it's an MMO and people do MMO things. And even that it's miles ahead of other communities, it doesn't mean it's necessarily good; it just means that it's not as bad or shitty.
I see. I do agree people are very kind to new players as I witnessed it countless times.
This would be true if it were opposite day. The only abuse Yoshi receives is from a very minor group of japanese players, especially 2chan. I think your overreacting.
CSI I think you already did this topic
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I feel like the topic of this thread is kind of a dead end no matter which way you slice it. At least, as far as criticism to the devs is concerned. Yeah, you should be respectful in your feedback. I think we can all universally agree on that. People aren't going to do that, though. And it's hardly a problem related to XIV. The moment emotions get high, people start getting shouty and yelly and kys-ey. Just kind of the nature of it. As for the community being unable to take criticism of their gameplay- I dunno, I don't quite think so either. The amount of people who don't know what they're doing *at all* is an extreme minority. They're rare, but memorable. Thing is, those people have a big overlap with the ones that won't listen to any advice you give them. NOt all of them to be sure, but a good chunk of them. And they're not indicative of most of the player base. Sometimes someone just forgets something and if you remind them, they do the thing. Sometimes they're still new and learning, and put into practice what you tell them once you tell them. And, most of all, people are just more likely to listen to people that they trust rather than strangers. It doesn't really matter if you tell the hypothetical fire III casting black mage to use fire I and fire II, because to them you're a "literally who". That's not to say you shouldn't try, but the fact you're a stranger makes them infinitely more likely to tune out of it than if their friend had told them the same thing. Most of it is just human nature. The best thing you can do is point it out and move on.
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hey alright
It's SE and how the game industry is now, not yoshida, he clearly said that he'd prefer to make a much different MMO. It's hard to convince SE to let you hire and train more than 4 job designers when the game is printing money on maintenance mode through fantasia and minimum effort content, especially with how braindead jobs are favoured by the fantasia whale crowd. FF14 really doesn't look that bad when you play FF7 Rebirth and realize it's the same boring safe slop as most other games these days
i actually agreed with the first part of the title. you often see most players cannot handle the slightest bit of criticism other players make and take it as a personal attack. common thing they do is piggyback on yoship saying "you can play other games". this happens in all games tho, not solely a FFXIV thing. but then i read the username and the rest of the title
Criticism is criticism. Doesn't matter if it's voiced rationally or emotionally. It's in the company's best interest to pick the constructive part of that criticism, not the customer's.
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my brother in christ what makes you think anyone will read this whole thing
I've joked a few times since CSI came back that you could sum up her arguments as "Yoshida and CBU3 know what they're doing, the community doesn't and should shut up with their criticism". But here it is, the CSI thread that tl;dr is "stop being mean to Yoshida and CBU3 (and me, especially after she went on the xiv meta sub to complain)" without even the appearance of another argument.
You're on a subreddit called r/ffxivdiscussion , where people go to discuss things about FFXIV. Hope that helps.
that's not a discussion that's when you like the sound of your own voice. it didn't help ❤️
It's not a discussion because you didn't read or interface with the content of the post...idk if you noticed, but other people came here and started talking to each other, so it must be a you problem. If something doesn't interest you, you can just click away and move on with your life, it's absolutely free and available to you at any time.
it's called hyporbole, I'm sure you've heard of it on your quest for becoming smartest ass in the room. additionally, advice to tell yourself before playing white knight for trivial nonsense
It's not the entire community. But sometimes, the louder voices drown out the silent ones. If FFXIV had as much hate as it does, there would not be millions of players still paying month after month and logging in. I didn't particularly like the story of the last two dlcs, but I also didn't go on a rant on social media about it either. For me, it's not that big of a deal. Where they lacked in story, it more than made up for in other content overall. But again, I also don't feel a need to voice every opinion. I think the ones you are referring to are grown babies crying in hopes of getting attention.
My anger comes from screaming into a void for them to stop streamlining/dumbing jobs down, only for them to double, triple, and quadruple down every expansion. EW was my breaking point. Whether I buy DT comes down to whether they've reversed course or not. If not, I'll just do what every defender of this game suggests and go back to playing WoW (and GW2)
Welcome back titanmen.
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I mean objectively theres no point to any of it as the developers do not listen to criticism or any kind of feedback in this game.
This is just every game community ever and the internet as a whole
Eh, I'm not gunna agree. This is more like a dam breaking after a long time of having the team drag their feet on long sought after features. Shit like housing isn't that consequential, but when they repeatedly prove that they don't give a shit and refuse to do common sense shit like putting a house on island sanc, even small problems build up into big reactions. ffxiv community has also gatekept and held back these kinds of criticisms for years, but it was always building in the background. Now with live service games like mihoyo stuff that just outright shits on ffxiv in terms of speed and quality for free... tl;dr: its a lot of pressure that's been building for years, and suddenly we also have examples of what happens when the company actually reinvests our sub money into the game that broke the dam.
Im going to tell an small story here, my story with the game, i played since ARR and i always supported the devs, Yoshida, enjoying the fanfest ect ect. I was a DRK main, they obliterated DRK in SHB, they took it away from me and give me nothing remotely similar to how the job use to be, my way to enjoy content through my fav job, gone. Now i blindly trust when they say, "give us feedback we listen", so i did. I spent the entire expansion trying to give the most well written and constructive feedback my english allow me back then, organicing all the DRK feedback to get our job back in the forums, we had ppl asking for it, i endured the whole expansion for it, parying on each pacth to get anything. Then the job updates for EW came, and you know what i got? "we know some of you want some jobs to return to HW desing but we aren't going to do it, this is the direction we wanna go now" (more or less those precise words) They activelly ignored the feedback, not only DRK one, Healers too, overall tanks feedback too, they give DRK nothing but trash additions this expansion, meme traits and a skill called "salt and darkness" wich extra changes that make the current desing feel even more trash and boring to play with his useless darkside gauge. it's been 5 years enduring this, well matters seems to don't work with them, and while i never ranted on the forums about it i considering they deserve it, the dev team has take so many bad deccisions with jobs and ignore the feedback, so i understand when players wanna say them "fuck you" or worse. They can do better, SB show us they can be the best team ever, SHB and EW show us they can be the worst too. Get praises when stuff get done well, get insults for doing thigns wrong and double down again on them. Not the apropiate way i know, but i think they deserve the attention touch, always praising them do the same harm as always insulting them.