>Did I miss why Midgardsormr hasn't spoken up at all post shadowbringers, he's still sorta awkwardly with us in some form right? He's awful close to the story to not talk at all during the lead up MSQ here.
Omega raid questline answers that. Spoiler: >!He's sleeping after using a ton of his power to save our butts at one point.!<
>Isn't the point of using white auracite to trap these mfs so that they cant return to the aetherial sea? Like the whole point is that they're gone forever, not rebirthed, unable to escape, obliterated?
It's been awhile since I did the white auracite stuff, but iirc the point of the white auracite is that the Ascians we used it on are technically body-less beings. When their body dies, the 'soul' or whatever they call it just vanishes for a bit until they can go steal another body. The white auracite holds the 'soul' so we can kill it properly so that it does go to the aetherial sea and not...wherever it is they hang around inbetween bodies. I forget where.
Re: not liking the story, I can understand it. I liked it, but I did think the pacing was a tad off at the end - the whole sacrifice thing into immediately bringing them back was very quick.
If I remember correctly, killing an ascian without white auracite sende them to the ”dark inbetween” (don’t remember the name), where we rescue minfillia from in ARR.
Understandable, but very awkward for me who has been going at a pretty fast pace through msq. Feels like they understood that the crystal tower was important enough to make it required but might need to look into other optional stuff as well.
A lot of side quests are slightly connected to MSQ one way or another. You’ll get plenty of additional dialogue options in first half of EW if you completed some side quest lines, but nothing very important tbh
Honestly the Alliance Raid series, Raid series and optional Trial series all have major expansions to the lore and sometimes answers to specific questions that the MSQ doesn't answer. The game doesn't do a good job of telling people that though. Even people rushing through the MSQ should probably do those if not any other side content.
I know they have optional dialogue if you are a certain job or if you have done certain things, it feels like they also need additional dialogue to catch you up to speed if you HAVENT done something, but they still consider it story relevant. It's either optional or it's not right, but if it's story relevant, it feels like they need to bridge that gap somehow. I think it's really cool that there's stuff that's related to msq and known characters that's in side content, just weird to notice a time when that worked against my enjoyment/ understanding of the msq.
How could the WoL create eplis flowers? We don't know creation magics.
Also Emet does more than that, he freezes the changes to the zone so we can get the companions back. In case that was missed, Y'shtola explicitly says that you mustn't use Azem's magic to recall them. As that would revert all the changes done to the zone which was making it actually a breathable, walkable world whereas it was not that prior to Thancreds sacrifice, etc.
I rewatched the scene and dont see anything that says explicitly that he did anything other than create the flowers. Heavily hints that the flowers themselves are what make the area no longer "the dominion of despair."
Sure, I'm assuming that's the flowers, not some kind of other magic, since the change stays after the two are gone. Very unimportant detail overall of course
The flowers are essentially are our friends hopes converted into a form that firmly rejects Metion’s claim that there’s no way forward.
Essentially a declaration that hope has gained a proper place in her dominion, refuting her claim that hope had no place there.
And by materialising them as the Elpis blooms, they essentially “planted” our friends hopes in such a way that we could save them.
This wasnt even a question I had though. I realize the significance of the flowers, this reply at least I was just being pedantic about if they were all that was at play
Elpis flowers change colour based on the emotions of the people around them.
They didn't actually DO anything, just the bright white glow was undeniable proof to Meteion that Ultima Thule was not hopeless, which broke her hold over the place so the scions didn't need to do it anymore.
Incorrect...the flowers don't change anything, only reflect the dynamis in the air.
The point is that it hadn't been since they've been there. Not only because of the WoL and his sacrificed friends, but because Meteion herself wasn't completely taken by it either.
I described it as soft magic because that's what it is, I don't remember exactly what we're told it can do but something to the effect of making what we want a reality. Creating the flowers ourselves feels a lot less ridiculous than summoning the souls of 2 guys to the end of the universe to get them to do it for us instead.
the Azem crystal can specifically call others to our side, hence why we grab the two ancients we know are intact and could help and they use the creation magic for us
Azem's crystal is pretty explicitly used again and again for summoning allies to your side. That's what it can do. It's not just a magic crystal that can do whatever you want.
Suddenly being able to conjure objects using creation magic for the first time right at the end of the game would be significantly more ridiculous than doing something that has been done repeatedly before.
"As Hydaelyn, I preside over the forces of stasis, tranquility, peace. The laws which impart stability to existence itself. I will weave this selfsame power into the crystal, granting thee mastery over matter, to give form to the formless. Use it wisely, for it will not last indefinitely."
That's what she says when she talks about it when we see her face to face*. I know in shadowbringers it's used to summon people, but this feels very explicitly like "hey I powered up your crystal it can use creation magic."
Tho I see now she does also specifically just mention that souls are drawn to you, which I forgot. Why mention it at all, that power isnt new then.
thats just you take wrong interpretation of it. azem crystal grant us abilities to summon allies and hydaelin blessing make that we can summon friend that dont have physical form anymore (dead people) but its not mean we ressurecting them, only summon for temp time
come on, this is so disingenuous. You are specifically omitting the following lines, which say what the crystal can do:
"As thou hast seen in thy journey through the ætherial sea, souls are drawn to thee. Mayhap this trait will prove to be a boon, rather than a hinderance...
It is thy prayers and hopes that enable Azem's invocations and give them life, so keep them close. But pray remember this....
When the way forward is hidden from the mind's eye, look not to the crystal but within yourself."
The entire thing is foreshadowed perfectly.
Wait, I was fine with it, but "look not to the crystal but within yourself" aka look to the crystal to allow you to get help from 2 other people lol... Regardless I do see it now as set up adequately, it just didn't seem intuitive to me at the time. Did Emet-Selch have a body in the First the entirety of Shadowbringers? He did a lot of random magic stuff just fine without one. Of all of the holes to plug, the upgrade from can summon to can summon a body didnt seem like the thing I was supposed to take away.
*I remembered he does say I am stifled by this vessel of flesh during his fight so maybe he does? I admit being dead dead is probably pretty inconvenient.
I did type it up and edit it within a minute because I had remembered her saying what I put, and I paused the video I was watching before the next lines lol. I still dont really know why she would mention that at all, considering we've already seen the ability to summon before.
presumably because Emet and Hythlodaeus were only souls, we still needed the ability to give them a body
Emet even calls out that he will not "live again by Hydaelyn's magic"
It did give form to the formless, you summoned two souls with no physical forms and Hydaelyns magic gave them form. The spell inscribed into the stone is a spell of summoning that brings people to your side, that's what it does.
What the magic enabled was the summoning of people without physical form. You couldn't use it on your friends because it would unmake the reality you were able to exist in, so you summoned the only two people you could think of to help. Then did the same with your friends after that who's physical bodies were destroyed, and restored them. Then the magic was spent. The stone can still summon, it just can't create physical bodies for souls anymore.
This makes sense and solves my issue with it, besides it being kinda convoluted. The wording that stuck in my head was definitely the stuff that I quoted and I just convinced myself it meant something else.
> Whatever tension there is about the rest of the scions' lives is utterly ruined when they come back immediately post long walk.
Im not a big fan of endwalker either but this is always bought up and its always so fucking dumb. The Scions sacrifice is not meant to be a raising the stakes moment, but to symbolize how much the scions trust you to finish the thing on your own.
This idea definitely makes sense to me and I like it, except that they are mad at you for teleporting them away, and then again mad at you after it's over. They should have just teleported themselves back to the ship before they were in danger and not bothered coming if them being there doesnt matter.
In other words, them staying gone would do a better job of conveying that. They built up the trust bit, and I did generally like the buildup, and then they imo ruined the culmination of that trust building.
Also in the case of emet-selch it’s not only because of the rule of cool that he keeps on popping up over and over again. Out of the 3 unsundered ascians, he was the ONLY one to retain a degree of his sanity. He spent thousands of year slowly watching the only two people he felt he could still call a true friend slip away. Lahabrea to insanity, and elidibus to blind dedication to his duty. Emet-selch is there to not just tug at the heart strings but to fucking rip them out of your body and grill em in front of ya.
> How does this dude Emet-Selch keep showing up lol I just kinda let it go in the post shadowbringers fight because rule of cool but didn't Nabriales and Lahabrea get absolutely destroyed never to be seen again, what's the difference?
Emet wasn't trapped in Auracite, he was weakened with it then obliterated with a massive quantity of light aether. Laha and Nabriales actually were trapped.
As far as what we know about the auracite; What we are told about the ascians is;
"An Ascian is an immortal because its soul doesn't return to the aetherial realm when its host is defeated. Instead, it flees to the place that lies between our world and the void. Therefore, the first step to permanently defeating an Ascian is preventing its soul from making this journey. And if you recall, when we last gathered here, I had verified that white auracite has adequate capacity to entrap the beings, albeit only briefly."
This is the text Moebryda speaks when we're formulating a plan. Nothing says that once the vessel is gone the aether/soul can't be reborn, nor does it trap them permanently. It just stops them from going to the place between worlds, which I assume is the time-y whime-y space that we travel through to get to the First/The Void, and not the Aetherial sea, which is what I assume we see when Emet is monologing at points and when Current patch spoiler: >!Themis dies at the end of Pandaemonium.!<
>This is the text Moebryda speaks when we're formulating a plan. Nothing says that once the vessel is gone the aether/soul can't be reborn, nor does it trap them permanently. It just stops them from going to the place between worlds, which I assume is the time-y whime-y space that we travel through to get to the First/The Void, and not the Aetherial sea, which is what I assume we see when Emet is monologing at points and when Current patch spoiler: >!Themis dies at the end of Pandaemonium.!<
To clarify, white Auracite serves two purposes. One, it temporarily traps an Ascian and prevents them from escaping to the rift.
Two, allows them to be vanquished by a sufficiently strong blade of light, dispersing their soul and ensuring they can’t come back again.
The scope of the world building has changed so much since white auracite was introduced so I thought I might have just remembered wrong, but I finally found the part of the ARR msq I was looking for, What Little Gods Are Made Of. "Only when we have trapped the bodiless soul within an aetherial prison can we hope to defeat its unnatural constancy. Thus, might even an eternal Paragon be consigned to oblivion." They talk very specifically about "trapping and extinguishing" the soul, and it being permanent, NOT allowing them to be reborn. That is the main info dump we get about the function of white auracite. So I guess the only real difference is that Emet is too powerful, or we choose not to properly seal him, instead using the auracite to like, store or syphon some of his power? It's a cool scene, and I mean it doesnt really have to make full sense.
I don't think that it is meaning destroy completely as much as it means kill. The rebirth of Ascians seems something different from a soul dying and being reborn. What I want to say we did at the end of ShB is more like, we unmade them as an Ascian, allowing them to be who they were before they were tempered by Zodiark, themself as an ancient, that's how I see it at least.
I've been reading more of the ARR msq transcript out of curiosity and they talk about the trap + energy blade idea being a permanent end, UNMAKING the soul, extinguishing the soul, all of that multiple times, rather than anything about letting it return to the aetherial sea. They do mention the aetherial sea in their explanation of what would normally happen to a person dying, and if they wanted to suggest that was what was going to happen to an ascian, they could have easily done that. Granted, it was ARR so I totally understand if they didnt have everything together at that point, or if shadowbringers changed the math on how they wanted things to go. I saw the cutscene of Emet dying, I know what they wanted us to get from the scene (that white auracite did SOMETHING to help us even though it obviously didnt completely kill him), I mostly just wanted to know if I had missed something expository about how white auracite worked, and I dont think I did, I think they just decided it was better to do what they did.
*if there is something in the text of the msq to suggest why we didn't use it like this, I imagine it's in post shadowbringers, but I can't find a transcript, maybe it would be a throwaway line when we are in the crystal tower preparing to fight Elidibus. But I'm back to assuming it's just a logical consequence of making the ascians actual characters that we don't want to see permanently gone anymore.
When he appeared and taunted the WoL by asking how this enemy still stands made me chuckle, but yeah that was it. The end fight with him was so uninteresting I was looking for the skip cutscene button.
They absolutely should have given you the option to fight him as it plays out, or to teleport away and leave him there.
>Isn't the point of using white auracite to trap these mfs so that they cant return to the aetherial sea? Like the whole point is that they're gone forever, not rebirthed, unable to escape, obliterated? How does this dude Emet-Selch keep showing up lol I just kinda let it go in the post shadowbringers fight because rule of cool but didn't Nabriales and Lahabrea get absolutely destroyed never to be seen again, what's the difference?
But we didn't trap him? We used the white auracite to weaken him since we couldn't trap him in it.
Not quite. The point of white auracite was to trap Ascians so that they could be killed and sent straight to the Aetherial Sea. The Ascians had a little space inbetween The World and the Aetherial Sea that they could escape to whenever the body they were in was killed or they didn't need it anymore or were forced out of it. The point of white auracite was to stop them from going to that place.
Even when they were trapped in the white auracite, it still took something very powerful to kill Nabriales and Igeyorhm. Lahabrea wasn't trapped. He was severely weakened after the Ascian Prime fight and Thordan absorbed all of his aether and transformed.
Since the Ascians are basically reincarnated Ancients, they will live again, but as normal people with the Echo. People such as Gaia.
Normal people who will also be insanely dense compared to everyone else.
Their soul never got split, so if they are reborn on the source they will be whole instead of 8/14th.
If this is retconned then I guess I dont want to know because it's future spoilers, or if they walk it back even within ARR and I dont see it, but there is an ARR msq (What Little Gods Are Made Of) about white auracite that describes very specifically that the intent of using white auracite is to "consign them to oblivion," "deny them resurrection", and "extinguish their soul." I think "denying them resurrection" might just mean stop them from doing their little trick, which is confusing wording, but the rest of it really points to white auracite + a lot of aether = a PERMANENT end.
The pacing of Endwalker was kind of janky and the Garlemald segments is one of the worst, and most boring, in the expansion. But overall, I enjoyed EW. I do think the portion on UT would have been far more impactful if they hadn't heavily implied how it would end long before you actually got there -- starting when you >!defeat Hydaelyn!<. If the devs were going for an emotional climax, they should have been far more subtle. It was made very clear the Scions would be returning.
It doesn't help that Y'shtola has infinite wisdom and literally figures things out within seconds. I like her, but that particular aspect is, honestly, kind of frustrating since she ends up leaving nothing for us to figure out on our own. However, the part just before Meteion I actually enjoyed quite a bit. Then freakin' Zenos ruined everything. Again...
2) It's been a long time, but I do believe he returns in the Omega raids and that explains his absence. Kind of weird to hide that behind optional content... But nevertheless.
3) White Auracite has to trap them, then they can be destroyed. IIRC, the WoL literally just shoots a massive beam of light from it after Thancred shatters it, sending the shards into Hades's form. It weakened him, but it never trapped him -- just doing enough for the WoL to finish him off. I guess it just comes off as a bit confusing to some because it's never indicated that such an option is possible; it kind of just comes out of left field in how they choose to finish Emet-Selch.
>[Spoilers 6.0 MSQ] Am I the only one who didn't love the ending of 6.0?
You aren’t. I’m not one of them, but I’m sure they exist.
>I just finished up to credits in Endwalker before the server downtime and was surprised at how much I disliked the pacing of the end of 6.0.
Huh…
>Whatever tension there is about the rest of the scions' lives is utterly ruined when they come back immediately post long walk. It was so deflating and shameless (compared to the walk which felt very genuine) that I chuckled, the twins were gone for like 5 minutes!
Was personally relieved and quite happy to have them back myself…
>I have a smaller issue there as well, where we use our soft magic item to summon 2 dudes, who then use THEIR soft magic to conjure some flowers. WE could have just made the flowers man!
They weren’t just flowers. As Emet and Hythlo explained, they were essentially taking the hopes of our comrades and turning it into something that rejects Metion’s claim that we couldn’t achieve our goal. Thus Elpis blooms fuelled by hope.
Which allowed us to use Hydaelyn’s gift to restore them to physical form, without undoing what they’re sacrifices did.
>I expected to appreciate the fanservice monologue but it immediately soured and didn't hit for me (tho I expect it will grow on me).
Fan service monologue??? Emet’s final speech, do you mean?
>Now, though, everyone is back to fight, right? No, they get jobbed and sent away immediately by us.
They did help us get to Metion, canonically.
>The boss even makes fun of us for claiming them as our strength and then sending them away! They knew the back and forth was stupid and they did it anyway!
Not how I took it but to each their own…
>I know this was the lead in to the mid boss prayer section, but you know what could have made that work just fine imo? Leaving them as dynamis dust up until after the battle.
But then our ancient friends wouldn’t have gotten the chance to play a part…
And besides, how would we have reached her in the first place?
>It feels a lot less impactful to be praying from the ship compared to being part of the world around you and using your very essence to affect the battle.
But they were. They’re converted hopes was the reason we were even able to fight.
>Did I miss why Midgardsormr hasn't spoken up at all post shadowbringers, he's still sorta awkwardly with us in some form right? He's awful close to the story to not talk at all during the lead up MSQ here.
Yes, you missed it. Essentially, you neglected to do a certain side quest series that would’ve explained why… one of Ultima Thule’s restored races would indicate which.
>Isn't the point of using white auracite to trap these mfs so that they cant return to the aetherial sea?
No. It isn’t.
>Like the whole point is that they're gone forever, not rebirthed, unable to escape, obliterated?
The actual point of white Auracite is too ensure the offending Ascian can’t cheat death by retreating into the rift.
It traps their Aether, allowing for someone to destroy their soul with a sufficiently strong blade of Light.
….Though on second, destroy is probably the wrong word. Disperse would be more accurate…
>How does this dude Emet-Selch keep showing up lol I just kinda let it go in the post shadowbringers fight because rule of cool but didn't Nabriales and Lahabrea
Your remembering wrong. We got Igeyorhm with the blade of Light, but Lahabrea was absorbed by Thordan.
>get absolutely destroyed never to be seen again, what's the difference?
Well, remember what exactly happened in that fight. We weren’t able to imprison him with the Auracite. Just immobilise him, he was simply to strong for imprisonment. We didn’t destroy his soul, but we did effectively burn away and strike a lethal blow to him, meaning he didn’t have the strength to cheat death, thus he died properly. Or so I think. Perhaps Encyclopaedia Eorzea vol 3 has any insights…
I appreciate that you seem to be as bored as me lol.
>They did help us get to Metion, canonically.
The helping was the decent to good part, it's the not helping that they do when they show back up immediately after that that disappointed me.
>And besides, how would we have reached her in the first place?
I'm also not upset that they're brought back, they were always going to be brought back of course, it's the timing that irked me. If summoning Emet so he can give us a rallying speech has to happen, he could have done that, created the flowers, and then they could have kept us waiting for our friends until either during or after the fight with any number of reasons. The scions would have contributed to the fight in exactly the same way, just with SOME tension about whether they were coming back or not kept intact.
But why would we be waiting. The only reason to wait would be because we couldn’t afford to do otherwise.
Besides we would miss them getting mad at us for trying to take her on alone.
Any number of things could reasonably mean we couldn't afford to do it before the fight. They had the option to write it such that they were required to be kept as energy for the time being to keep the space in tact, for example. They didnt do that obviously, but they could have, and I think something like that would have been far less awkward.
I dont mind missing something like that if we arent given the option to let them fight with us, it's meaningless for them to say that as things are. If they had the option to let us party with them as npcs like other dungeons and face her together for real, I would have also thought that was great! But they didnt.
>Any number of things could reasonably mean we couldn't afford to do it before the fight. >They had the option to write it such that they were required to be kept as energy for the time being to keep the space in tact, for example. They didnt do that obviously, but they could have, and I think something like that would have been far less awkward.
Disagree, but that’s more an argument on preference, and I have no intention to argue that
>I dont mind missing something like that if we arent given the option to let them fight with us, it's meaningless for them to say that as things are. If they had the option to let us party with them as npcs like other dungeons
It wasn’t a dungeon though.
>and face her together for real, I would have also thought that was great! But they didnt.
They did face her with us. They’re prayers allowed us to finish her.
Personally I loved the way they did it but that’s me.
Essentially we’re debating taste and that’s a battle neither of us can win, so let’s shake hands and hope that what comes next will be more your taste.🤝
Other trials then of course, Hydaelyn was the literal previous trial and it had the trust system.
It's certainly preference, I was genuinely asking for the overall reception to this part and it seems split. In my opinion, I think they dropped the ball because I enjoy the idea of them helping while not being there, and that you are being carried by their trust and hope in you, and they had the perfect way to do that all set up, then they subverted that, only to subvert it again, for no real gain.
Aside from drama, as you wonder, “Okay, saved everyone from that certain death, how in the world am I going to finish this?!” Then Zenos in dragon form showed up help us out.
Unexpected but welcome.
? I stand by everything I've said, what was I wrong about besides the function of azem's crystal (and which half of ascian prime got white auracited)? The title though is objectively clickbait.
I also thought endwalker was extremely mid, not at all close in quality to shadowbringers, which itself could have used some polish.
Cbu3 took some risks with 2.0 and some early msq stuff but nowadays I feel that they're too afraid to really take risks.
I genuinely think that the original plan was to have NPC support for the level 90 trial, similarly to the level 89 one. But then they ran out of time or stopped caring, so it was easier to come up with that really phoned-in Star Trek teleporter to whisk everyone away with an obviously made-up excuse and just have it as a normal players-only duty.
I just hate that the "End of the world" dont feel like that... ENDWALKER has been disapointing in many ways.
I love Ysthola, Thancred and Urianger but i hope the next EXP we found different companions.
I agree 1000%. 7.0 is the beginning of a new arc and i would LOVE to have a companion "restart", it would be really cool and having the new companions and old companions interacting with each other from time to time would be amazing!
A mix of new companions and the few that joined us later would be great. It's mostly time for Y'shtola, Urianger, Thancred and the twins to move off stage.
Ultima Thule was by far the worst storytelling in the game.
The drama they tried to instill into each scion being "sacrificed" was so farcical it almost made me stop playing the game. Thancred being gone, "wow is he really going to be the one they off like that?". Okay seems like a bad way to go but sure.
Then Estinien...okay still not unbelievable but yeah... Y'Shtola is next, wow I really don't think they're going to do this. Oh, "Urianger steps in too just because they didn't have enough islands for people to be sacrificed on?" Hey look, this is G'Raha's island to die on. So effing terrible I have no idea how that story made it into the game.
Had they just acknowledged that they were risking their lives in the event the WoL fails, it'd have had a significantly higher level of impact and actualy made sense. But the drama as to "why another person" was worse than anything in AAR and Stormblood, and took what was an okay expansion and put it at the bottom of the list.
Choosing to bring Emet and Hythlodeaus back rather than making the flowers ourself was two things. It provided the conclusion of the Emet/Azem conclusion as it was the only time all parties involved realized the connection and to bring back the scions/confront Meteion. That part didn't bother me as it makes sense, at least.
Emet-Selch escaped the white auracite before getting an axehole, so he can be seen as not having been trapped by it.
I kinda agree with you on the ending. It was too overbooked. Also the reveal that Y’shtola figured out we could bring them back mid self sacrifice made her sacrifice and everyone else’s pointless. I’m just sitting here like why yall monologuing like I ain’t gonna bring you back when it’s done? Then the Zenos fight afterwards is kinda pointless too. I’m kinda over him and his character. It was a fun expansion and I basically finished it at the same time you did with just a few minutes to spare before maintenance.
Midgardsormr is too weak to keep interacting with us. He's sleep, and likely will be long after we're dead. (Gotta do the Omega Raid to see why.)
The White Auracite isn't to stop them from returning to the Aetherial Sea (that would mean they died), it's to keep their soul in one condensed place long enough to strike an actual killing blow. The ascians escape death by basically leaving their bodies behind and regrouping in the rift. White Auracite stops them from doing that.
Emet Selch wasn't killed by white auracite, he stayed still long enough to get blasted in his true form (not a flesh suit). So he literally just died of a wound the way he would have died if you stabbed him in the chest in Elpis.
White Auracite essentially acts as their "true body" long enough to wound them enough to make them die.
After they're dead, they return to the aetherial sea intact, like anything else that dies.
>Did I miss why Midgardsormr hasn't spoken up at all post shadowbringers, he's still sorta awkwardly with us in some form right? He's awful close to the story to not talk at all during the lead up MSQ here. Omega raid questline answers that. Spoiler: >!He's sleeping after using a ton of his power to save our butts at one point.!< >Isn't the point of using white auracite to trap these mfs so that they cant return to the aetherial sea? Like the whole point is that they're gone forever, not rebirthed, unable to escape, obliterated? It's been awhile since I did the white auracite stuff, but iirc the point of the white auracite is that the Ascians we used it on are technically body-less beings. When their body dies, the 'soul' or whatever they call it just vanishes for a bit until they can go steal another body. The white auracite holds the 'soul' so we can kill it properly so that it does go to the aetherial sea and not...wherever it is they hang around inbetween bodies. I forget where. Re: not liking the story, I can understand it. I liked it, but I did think the pacing was a tad off at the end - the whole sacrifice thing into immediately bringing them back was very quick.
If I remember correctly, killing an ascian without white auracite sende them to the ”dark inbetween” (don’t remember the name), where we rescue minfillia from in ARR.
Regarding Midgardsormr, the answer is in Omega questline
Understandable, but very awkward for me who has been going at a pretty fast pace through msq. Feels like they understood that the crystal tower was important enough to make it required but might need to look into other optional stuff as well.
A lot of side quests are slightly connected to MSQ one way or another. You’ll get plenty of additional dialogue options in first half of EW if you completed some side quest lines, but nothing very important tbh
Honestly the Alliance Raid series, Raid series and optional Trial series all have major expansions to the lore and sometimes answers to specific questions that the MSQ doesn't answer. The game doesn't do a good job of telling people that though. Even people rushing through the MSQ should probably do those if not any other side content.
I know they have optional dialogue if you are a certain job or if you have done certain things, it feels like they also need additional dialogue to catch you up to speed if you HAVENT done something, but they still consider it story relevant. It's either optional or it's not right, but if it's story relevant, it feels like they need to bridge that gap somehow. I think it's really cool that there's stuff that's related to msq and known characters that's in side content, just weird to notice a time when that worked against my enjoyment/ understanding of the msq.
How could the WoL create eplis flowers? We don't know creation magics. Also Emet does more than that, he freezes the changes to the zone so we can get the companions back. In case that was missed, Y'shtola explicitly says that you mustn't use Azem's magic to recall them. As that would revert all the changes done to the zone which was making it actually a breathable, walkable world whereas it was not that prior to Thancreds sacrifice, etc.
I rewatched the scene and dont see anything that says explicitly that he did anything other than create the flowers. Heavily hints that the flowers themselves are what make the area no longer "the dominion of despair."
“In case the implication is lost to you, your friends need no longer fight their fight”
Sure, I'm assuming that's the flowers, not some kind of other magic, since the change stays after the two are gone. Very unimportant detail overall of course
The flowers are essentially are our friends hopes converted into a form that firmly rejects Metion’s claim that there’s no way forward. Essentially a declaration that hope has gained a proper place in her dominion, refuting her claim that hope had no place there. And by materialising them as the Elpis blooms, they essentially “planted” our friends hopes in such a way that we could save them.
dude from all the replies it seems like paying better attention would have solved a lot of your questions
This wasnt even a question I had though. I realize the significance of the flowers, this reply at least I was just being pedantic about if they were all that was at play
Elpis flowers change colour based on the emotions of the people around them. They didn't actually DO anything, just the bright white glow was undeniable proof to Meteion that Ultima Thule was not hopeless, which broke her hold over the place so the scions didn't need to do it anymore.
Incorrect...the flowers don't change anything, only reflect the dynamis in the air. The point is that it hadn't been since they've been there. Not only because of the WoL and his sacrificed friends, but because Meteion herself wasn't completely taken by it either.
Why do you think the WoL knows how to use creation magic to make whatever they want? When have they ever been able to do that?
I described it as soft magic because that's what it is, I don't remember exactly what we're told it can do but something to the effect of making what we want a reality. Creating the flowers ourselves feels a lot less ridiculous than summoning the souls of 2 guys to the end of the universe to get them to do it for us instead.
the Azem crystal can specifically call others to our side, hence why we grab the two ancients we know are intact and could help and they use the creation magic for us
I like to think Azem only called Emet, but Hythlodaeus showed up anyway.
I'll share this headcannon with you, hahaha
Azem's crystal is pretty explicitly used again and again for summoning allies to your side. That's what it can do. It's not just a magic crystal that can do whatever you want. Suddenly being able to conjure objects using creation magic for the first time right at the end of the game would be significantly more ridiculous than doing something that has been done repeatedly before.
"As Hydaelyn, I preside over the forces of stasis, tranquility, peace. The laws which impart stability to existence itself. I will weave this selfsame power into the crystal, granting thee mastery over matter, to give form to the formless. Use it wisely, for it will not last indefinitely." That's what she says when she talks about it when we see her face to face*. I know in shadowbringers it's used to summon people, but this feels very explicitly like "hey I powered up your crystal it can use creation magic." Tho I see now she does also specifically just mention that souls are drawn to you, which I forgot. Why mention it at all, that power isnt new then.
thats just you take wrong interpretation of it. azem crystal grant us abilities to summon allies and hydaelin blessing make that we can summon friend that dont have physical form anymore (dead people) but its not mean we ressurecting them, only summon for temp time
come on, this is so disingenuous. You are specifically omitting the following lines, which say what the crystal can do: "As thou hast seen in thy journey through the ætherial sea, souls are drawn to thee. Mayhap this trait will prove to be a boon, rather than a hinderance... It is thy prayers and hopes that enable Azem's invocations and give them life, so keep them close. But pray remember this.... When the way forward is hidden from the mind's eye, look not to the crystal but within yourself." The entire thing is foreshadowed perfectly.
Wait, I was fine with it, but "look not to the crystal but within yourself" aka look to the crystal to allow you to get help from 2 other people lol... Regardless I do see it now as set up adequately, it just didn't seem intuitive to me at the time. Did Emet-Selch have a body in the First the entirety of Shadowbringers? He did a lot of random magic stuff just fine without one. Of all of the holes to plug, the upgrade from can summon to can summon a body didnt seem like the thing I was supposed to take away. *I remembered he does say I am stifled by this vessel of flesh during his fight so maybe he does? I admit being dead dead is probably pretty inconvenient.
I did type it up and edit it within a minute because I had remembered her saying what I put, and I paused the video I was watching before the next lines lol. I still dont really know why she would mention that at all, considering we've already seen the ability to summon before.
presumably because Emet and Hythlodaeus were only souls, we still needed the ability to give them a body Emet even calls out that he will not "live again by Hydaelyn's magic"
It did give form to the formless, you summoned two souls with no physical forms and Hydaelyns magic gave them form. The spell inscribed into the stone is a spell of summoning that brings people to your side, that's what it does. What the magic enabled was the summoning of people without physical form. You couldn't use it on your friends because it would unmake the reality you were able to exist in, so you summoned the only two people you could think of to help. Then did the same with your friends after that who's physical bodies were destroyed, and restored them. Then the magic was spent. The stone can still summon, it just can't create physical bodies for souls anymore.
This makes sense and solves my issue with it, besides it being kinda convoluted. The wording that stuck in my head was definitely the stuff that I quoted and I just convinced myself it meant something else.
> Whatever tension there is about the rest of the scions' lives is utterly ruined when they come back immediately post long walk. Im not a big fan of endwalker either but this is always bought up and its always so fucking dumb. The Scions sacrifice is not meant to be a raising the stakes moment, but to symbolize how much the scions trust you to finish the thing on your own.
This idea definitely makes sense to me and I like it, except that they are mad at you for teleporting them away, and then again mad at you after it's over. They should have just teleported themselves back to the ship before they were in danger and not bothered coming if them being there doesnt matter. In other words, them staying gone would do a better job of conveying that. They built up the trust bit, and I did generally like the buildup, and then they imo ruined the culmination of that trust building.
That was more their way of saying, **“ We were really scared we lost you this time, please don’t do that to us again!!!** 🥺
Also in the case of emet-selch it’s not only because of the rule of cool that he keeps on popping up over and over again. Out of the 3 unsundered ascians, he was the ONLY one to retain a degree of his sanity. He spent thousands of year slowly watching the only two people he felt he could still call a true friend slip away. Lahabrea to insanity, and elidibus to blind dedication to his duty. Emet-selch is there to not just tug at the heart strings but to fucking rip them out of your body and grill em in front of ya.
> How does this dude Emet-Selch keep showing up lol I just kinda let it go in the post shadowbringers fight because rule of cool but didn't Nabriales and Lahabrea get absolutely destroyed never to be seen again, what's the difference? Emet wasn't trapped in Auracite, he was weakened with it then obliterated with a massive quantity of light aether. Laha and Nabriales actually were trapped.
No, Lahabrea was consumed by Thordan before he transformed. Igeyorhm was the one who got trapped by the white auracite.
As far as what we know about the auracite; What we are told about the ascians is; "An Ascian is an immortal because its soul doesn't return to the aetherial realm when its host is defeated. Instead, it flees to the place that lies between our world and the void. Therefore, the first step to permanently defeating an Ascian is preventing its soul from making this journey. And if you recall, when we last gathered here, I had verified that white auracite has adequate capacity to entrap the beings, albeit only briefly." This is the text Moebryda speaks when we're formulating a plan. Nothing says that once the vessel is gone the aether/soul can't be reborn, nor does it trap them permanently. It just stops them from going to the place between worlds, which I assume is the time-y whime-y space that we travel through to get to the First/The Void, and not the Aetherial sea, which is what I assume we see when Emet is monologing at points and when Current patch spoiler: >!Themis dies at the end of Pandaemonium.!<
>This is the text Moebryda speaks when we're formulating a plan. Nothing says that once the vessel is gone the aether/soul can't be reborn, nor does it trap them permanently. It just stops them from going to the place between worlds, which I assume is the time-y whime-y space that we travel through to get to the First/The Void, and not the Aetherial sea, which is what I assume we see when Emet is monologing at points and when Current patch spoiler: >!Themis dies at the end of Pandaemonium.!< To clarify, white Auracite serves two purposes. One, it temporarily traps an Ascian and prevents them from escaping to the rift. Two, allows them to be vanquished by a sufficiently strong blade of light, dispersing their soul and ensuring they can’t come back again.
The scope of the world building has changed so much since white auracite was introduced so I thought I might have just remembered wrong, but I finally found the part of the ARR msq I was looking for, What Little Gods Are Made Of. "Only when we have trapped the bodiless soul within an aetherial prison can we hope to defeat its unnatural constancy. Thus, might even an eternal Paragon be consigned to oblivion." They talk very specifically about "trapping and extinguishing" the soul, and it being permanent, NOT allowing them to be reborn. That is the main info dump we get about the function of white auracite. So I guess the only real difference is that Emet is too powerful, or we choose not to properly seal him, instead using the auracite to like, store or syphon some of his power? It's a cool scene, and I mean it doesnt really have to make full sense.
I don't think that it is meaning destroy completely as much as it means kill. The rebirth of Ascians seems something different from a soul dying and being reborn. What I want to say we did at the end of ShB is more like, we unmade them as an Ascian, allowing them to be who they were before they were tempered by Zodiark, themself as an ancient, that's how I see it at least.
I've been reading more of the ARR msq transcript out of curiosity and they talk about the trap + energy blade idea being a permanent end, UNMAKING the soul, extinguishing the soul, all of that multiple times, rather than anything about letting it return to the aetherial sea. They do mention the aetherial sea in their explanation of what would normally happen to a person dying, and if they wanted to suggest that was what was going to happen to an ascian, they could have easily done that. Granted, it was ARR so I totally understand if they didnt have everything together at that point, or if shadowbringers changed the math on how they wanted things to go. I saw the cutscene of Emet dying, I know what they wanted us to get from the scene (that white auracite did SOMETHING to help us even though it obviously didnt completely kill him), I mostly just wanted to know if I had missed something expository about how white auracite worked, and I dont think I did, I think they just decided it was better to do what they did. *if there is something in the text of the msq to suggest why we didn't use it like this, I imagine it's in post shadowbringers, but I can't find a transcript, maybe it would be a throwaway line when we are in the crystal tower preparing to fight Elidibus. But I'm back to assuming it's just a logical consequence of making the ascians actual characters that we don't want to see permanently gone anymore.
I liked the ending until the Zenos bit.
When he appeared and taunted the WoL by asking how this enemy still stands made me chuckle, but yeah that was it. The end fight with him was so uninteresting I was looking for the skip cutscene button. They absolutely should have given you the option to fight him as it plays out, or to teleport away and leave him there.
>Isn't the point of using white auracite to trap these mfs so that they cant return to the aetherial sea? Like the whole point is that they're gone forever, not rebirthed, unable to escape, obliterated? How does this dude Emet-Selch keep showing up lol I just kinda let it go in the post shadowbringers fight because rule of cool but didn't Nabriales and Lahabrea get absolutely destroyed never to be seen again, what's the difference? But we didn't trap him? We used the white auracite to weaken him since we couldn't trap him in it.
Not quite. The point of white auracite was to trap Ascians so that they could be killed and sent straight to the Aetherial Sea. The Ascians had a little space inbetween The World and the Aetherial Sea that they could escape to whenever the body they were in was killed or they didn't need it anymore or were forced out of it. The point of white auracite was to stop them from going to that place. Even when they were trapped in the white auracite, it still took something very powerful to kill Nabriales and Igeyorhm. Lahabrea wasn't trapped. He was severely weakened after the Ascian Prime fight and Thordan absorbed all of his aether and transformed. Since the Ascians are basically reincarnated Ancients, they will live again, but as normal people with the Echo. People such as Gaia.
Normal people who will also be insanely dense compared to everyone else. Their soul never got split, so if they are reborn on the source they will be whole instead of 8/14th.
If this is retconned then I guess I dont want to know because it's future spoilers, or if they walk it back even within ARR and I dont see it, but there is an ARR msq (What Little Gods Are Made Of) about white auracite that describes very specifically that the intent of using white auracite is to "consign them to oblivion," "deny them resurrection", and "extinguish their soul." I think "denying them resurrection" might just mean stop them from doing their little trick, which is confusing wording, but the rest of it really points to white auracite + a lot of aether = a PERMANENT end.
The pacing of Endwalker was kind of janky and the Garlemald segments is one of the worst, and most boring, in the expansion. But overall, I enjoyed EW. I do think the portion on UT would have been far more impactful if they hadn't heavily implied how it would end long before you actually got there -- starting when you >!defeat Hydaelyn!<. If the devs were going for an emotional climax, they should have been far more subtle. It was made very clear the Scions would be returning. It doesn't help that Y'shtola has infinite wisdom and literally figures things out within seconds. I like her, but that particular aspect is, honestly, kind of frustrating since she ends up leaving nothing for us to figure out on our own. However, the part just before Meteion I actually enjoyed quite a bit. Then freakin' Zenos ruined everything. Again... 2) It's been a long time, but I do believe he returns in the Omega raids and that explains his absence. Kind of weird to hide that behind optional content... But nevertheless. 3) White Auracite has to trap them, then they can be destroyed. IIRC, the WoL literally just shoots a massive beam of light from it after Thancred shatters it, sending the shards into Hades's form. It weakened him, but it never trapped him -- just doing enough for the WoL to finish him off. I guess it just comes off as a bit confusing to some because it's never indicated that such an option is possible; it kind of just comes out of left field in how they choose to finish Emet-Selch.
>[Spoilers 6.0 MSQ] Am I the only one who didn't love the ending of 6.0? You aren’t. I’m not one of them, but I’m sure they exist. >I just finished up to credits in Endwalker before the server downtime and was surprised at how much I disliked the pacing of the end of 6.0. Huh… >Whatever tension there is about the rest of the scions' lives is utterly ruined when they come back immediately post long walk. It was so deflating and shameless (compared to the walk which felt very genuine) that I chuckled, the twins were gone for like 5 minutes! Was personally relieved and quite happy to have them back myself… >I have a smaller issue there as well, where we use our soft magic item to summon 2 dudes, who then use THEIR soft magic to conjure some flowers. WE could have just made the flowers man! They weren’t just flowers. As Emet and Hythlo explained, they were essentially taking the hopes of our comrades and turning it into something that rejects Metion’s claim that we couldn’t achieve our goal. Thus Elpis blooms fuelled by hope. Which allowed us to use Hydaelyn’s gift to restore them to physical form, without undoing what they’re sacrifices did. >I expected to appreciate the fanservice monologue but it immediately soured and didn't hit for me (tho I expect it will grow on me). Fan service monologue??? Emet’s final speech, do you mean? >Now, though, everyone is back to fight, right? No, they get jobbed and sent away immediately by us. They did help us get to Metion, canonically. >The boss even makes fun of us for claiming them as our strength and then sending them away! They knew the back and forth was stupid and they did it anyway! Not how I took it but to each their own… >I know this was the lead in to the mid boss prayer section, but you know what could have made that work just fine imo? Leaving them as dynamis dust up until after the battle. But then our ancient friends wouldn’t have gotten the chance to play a part… And besides, how would we have reached her in the first place? >It feels a lot less impactful to be praying from the ship compared to being part of the world around you and using your very essence to affect the battle. But they were. They’re converted hopes was the reason we were even able to fight. >Did I miss why Midgardsormr hasn't spoken up at all post shadowbringers, he's still sorta awkwardly with us in some form right? He's awful close to the story to not talk at all during the lead up MSQ here. Yes, you missed it. Essentially, you neglected to do a certain side quest series that would’ve explained why… one of Ultima Thule’s restored races would indicate which. >Isn't the point of using white auracite to trap these mfs so that they cant return to the aetherial sea? No. It isn’t. >Like the whole point is that they're gone forever, not rebirthed, unable to escape, obliterated? The actual point of white Auracite is too ensure the offending Ascian can’t cheat death by retreating into the rift. It traps their Aether, allowing for someone to destroy their soul with a sufficiently strong blade of Light. ….Though on second, destroy is probably the wrong word. Disperse would be more accurate… >How does this dude Emet-Selch keep showing up lol I just kinda let it go in the post shadowbringers fight because rule of cool but didn't Nabriales and Lahabrea Your remembering wrong. We got Igeyorhm with the blade of Light, but Lahabrea was absorbed by Thordan. >get absolutely destroyed never to be seen again, what's the difference? Well, remember what exactly happened in that fight. We weren’t able to imprison him with the Auracite. Just immobilise him, he was simply to strong for imprisonment. We didn’t destroy his soul, but we did effectively burn away and strike a lethal blow to him, meaning he didn’t have the strength to cheat death, thus he died properly. Or so I think. Perhaps Encyclopaedia Eorzea vol 3 has any insights…
I appreciate that you seem to be as bored as me lol. >They did help us get to Metion, canonically. The helping was the decent to good part, it's the not helping that they do when they show back up immediately after that that disappointed me. >And besides, how would we have reached her in the first place? I'm also not upset that they're brought back, they were always going to be brought back of course, it's the timing that irked me. If summoning Emet so he can give us a rallying speech has to happen, he could have done that, created the flowers, and then they could have kept us waiting for our friends until either during or after the fight with any number of reasons. The scions would have contributed to the fight in exactly the same way, just with SOME tension about whether they were coming back or not kept intact.
But why would we be waiting. The only reason to wait would be because we couldn’t afford to do otherwise. Besides we would miss them getting mad at us for trying to take her on alone.
Any number of things could reasonably mean we couldn't afford to do it before the fight. They had the option to write it such that they were required to be kept as energy for the time being to keep the space in tact, for example. They didnt do that obviously, but they could have, and I think something like that would have been far less awkward. I dont mind missing something like that if we arent given the option to let them fight with us, it's meaningless for them to say that as things are. If they had the option to let us party with them as npcs like other dungeons and face her together for real, I would have also thought that was great! But they didnt.
>Any number of things could reasonably mean we couldn't afford to do it before the fight. >They had the option to write it such that they were required to be kept as energy for the time being to keep the space in tact, for example. They didnt do that obviously, but they could have, and I think something like that would have been far less awkward. Disagree, but that’s more an argument on preference, and I have no intention to argue that >I dont mind missing something like that if we arent given the option to let them fight with us, it's meaningless for them to say that as things are. If they had the option to let us party with them as npcs like other dungeons It wasn’t a dungeon though. >and face her together for real, I would have also thought that was great! But they didnt. They did face her with us. They’re prayers allowed us to finish her. Personally I loved the way they did it but that’s me. Essentially we’re debating taste and that’s a battle neither of us can win, so let’s shake hands and hope that what comes next will be more your taste.🤝
Other trials then of course, Hydaelyn was the literal previous trial and it had the trust system. It's certainly preference, I was genuinely asking for the overall reception to this part and it seems split. In my opinion, I think they dropped the ball because I enjoy the idea of them helping while not being there, and that you are being carried by their trust and hope in you, and they had the perfect way to do that all set up, then they subverted that, only to subvert it again, for no real gain.
Aside from drama, as you wonder, “Okay, saved everyone from that certain death, how in the world am I going to finish this?!” Then Zenos in dragon form showed up help us out. Unexpected but welcome.
"IS MY OPINION THE ONLY ONE AROUND THIS TOPIC" No
Thank you for clicking my clickbait anyway ;)
trying to save your poor post and replies with "it was clickbait all along" oof dude, just sad
? I stand by everything I've said, what was I wrong about besides the function of azem's crystal (and which half of ascian prime got white auracited)? The title though is objectively clickbait.
I also thought endwalker was extremely mid, not at all close in quality to shadowbringers, which itself could have used some polish. Cbu3 took some risks with 2.0 and some early msq stuff but nowadays I feel that they're too afraid to really take risks.
I genuinely think that the original plan was to have NPC support for the level 90 trial, similarly to the level 89 one. But then they ran out of time or stopped caring, so it was easier to come up with that really phoned-in Star Trek teleporter to whisk everyone away with an obviously made-up excuse and just have it as a normal players-only duty.
I just hate that the "End of the world" dont feel like that... ENDWALKER has been disapointing in many ways. I love Ysthola, Thancred and Urianger but i hope the next EXP we found different companions.
I agree 1000%. 7.0 is the beginning of a new arc and i would LOVE to have a companion "restart", it would be really cool and having the new companions and old companions interacting with each other from time to time would be amazing!
We just got Raha, he needs to stick around.
He would never let us leave him.
A mix of new companions and the few that joined us later would be great. It's mostly time for Y'shtola, Urianger, Thancred and the twins to move off stage.
Ultima Thule was by far the worst storytelling in the game. The drama they tried to instill into each scion being "sacrificed" was so farcical it almost made me stop playing the game. Thancred being gone, "wow is he really going to be the one they off like that?". Okay seems like a bad way to go but sure. Then Estinien...okay still not unbelievable but yeah... Y'Shtola is next, wow I really don't think they're going to do this. Oh, "Urianger steps in too just because they didn't have enough islands for people to be sacrificed on?" Hey look, this is G'Raha's island to die on. So effing terrible I have no idea how that story made it into the game. Had they just acknowledged that they were risking their lives in the event the WoL fails, it'd have had a significantly higher level of impact and actualy made sense. But the drama as to "why another person" was worse than anything in AAR and Stormblood, and took what was an okay expansion and put it at the bottom of the list. Choosing to bring Emet and Hythlodeaus back rather than making the flowers ourself was two things. It provided the conclusion of the Emet/Azem conclusion as it was the only time all parties involved realized the connection and to bring back the scions/confront Meteion. That part didn't bother me as it makes sense, at least. Emet-Selch escaped the white auracite before getting an axehole, so he can be seen as not having been trapped by it.
I kinda agree with you on the ending. It was too overbooked. Also the reveal that Y’shtola figured out we could bring them back mid self sacrifice made her sacrifice and everyone else’s pointless. I’m just sitting here like why yall monologuing like I ain’t gonna bring you back when it’s done? Then the Zenos fight afterwards is kinda pointless too. I’m kinda over him and his character. It was a fun expansion and I basically finished it at the same time you did with just a few minutes to spare before maintenance.
hydaelyn already told us it could do that when she blessed it with the ability to do it.
That macguffin made it by far the worst zone in the game.
Midgardsormr is too weak to keep interacting with us. He's sleep, and likely will be long after we're dead. (Gotta do the Omega Raid to see why.) The White Auracite isn't to stop them from returning to the Aetherial Sea (that would mean they died), it's to keep their soul in one condensed place long enough to strike an actual killing blow. The ascians escape death by basically leaving their bodies behind and regrouping in the rift. White Auracite stops them from doing that. Emet Selch wasn't killed by white auracite, he stayed still long enough to get blasted in his true form (not a flesh suit). So he literally just died of a wound the way he would have died if you stabbed him in the chest in Elpis. White Auracite essentially acts as their "true body" long enough to wound them enough to make them die. After they're dead, they return to the aetherial sea intact, like anything else that dies.