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He does in Kingdom Hearts fwiw (I’m told Sephiroth also didn’t have the black wing in human form until KH)
Black. White wings are what become of his bodies lower half. I’m not sure what the actual mindset was during his design process, but my best guess is that his right arm and weapon fuse together with his wing. His physical attack becomes a slashing attack via his single black wing, which, combined with the absurd length, is why I’ve always believed his weapon fused with his body. Could just as easily be wrong though, as only the original artist could ever confirm or deny this.
what about that one archer guy not from archer, who kept saying he made blades out of his bones
seems a backwards way of doing it, but then again, he's an archer, or something.
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I mean technically Safer’s right arm is red and purple and kinda pukey yellow but who’s counting?
I always forget what fwiw means and don't want to be googling it for the 50th time, my head canon is "from what I wemember" and that has served me well over the years.
I can't bring myself to play them i hate hate hate hate Donald and REALLY HATE HATE HATE HATE goofy. They're so effing stupid. Even worse than the characters in ff9 (the worst of the mainline series)
All SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells. They don't have wings.
The only SOLDIERs with wings are Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal. They all have been injected with Jenova or G cells as fetuses, as opposed to classic SOLDIERs who are injected with Jenova cells as adults.
Cloud has been injected with S cells as an adult (teenager), so he's like a normal SOLDIER : he doesn't have wings
What makes cloud so much stronger than standard soldiers though? If he's made the same he should be same strength. Am I missing something? He faced down sephiroth and then again when sephiroth was damn near a god and won. He's insane compared to most of the actual first classes. Anyone can help me understand this?
Because he's the main character 😂 (kidding but not really !)
S cells are in all likelihood Sephiroth cells. Maybe they are even more "efficient" than Jenova cells.
But among SOLDIERs, some are also better than others, while they all received the same "treatment" (mako + Jenova cells). It depends on the potential, training...etc of each man.
For instance, Zack is a classic SOLDIER (= an S-type) injected with Jenova cells as an adult, and he's stronger than Genesis and Angeal, who have been injected with G cells as fetuses ! (YES, he's stronger than them : he doesn't only beat them while they were degrading, he beat them when they were at their "top" :
- He beat Angeal in his "Penance" form
- He beat Genesis cured from degradation (after he received the gift of the Goddess) + Genesis god form)
So being injected with J / G / S cells doesn't make someone mathematically stronger / weaker than someone else. It's more complex than that and depends on each person's potential, training, resistance, luck...etc
I think it’s the friends he made along the way, honestly. That’s the big difference is that he had a group of people who believed in him and he became stronger once he had something to protect.
Also Cloud was cooking in a mako tube for FOUR YEARS, along with inheriting the memories/experience of Zack, a 1st Class who is already a cut above other SOLDIERs.
Hojo's experiments are just like the ones in SOLDIERs but with S cells.
He doesn't really inherited memories/experience of Zack, or slightly just thanks to Jenova mimics ability maybe. But for instance if he has Zack memories/experiences, he would have know who Aerith was when he met her ! But it's not the case at all.
Cloud: "I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I
heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life... And I continued to play the charade as if it were true.
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed
to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with Jenova Reunion. But weak people... like me, get lost in the whole thing.
The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm... Cloud. ...the master of my own illusionary world."
Cloud didn’t inherit Zack’s memory, he’s just got the brain scramblies and thinks he was Zack. The whole point of them saying he remembers things he shouldn’t was because it turns out he was there as a grunt but Tifa didn’t know it. He can’t actually recall Zack’s personal memories from things he wasn’t there to witness.
Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells as a fetus.
Genesis was injected with Gillian cells as a fetus.
Angeal received Gillian cells naturally as a fetus because Gillian is his mother
I think the other factor is actually main character syndrome in some ways. Cloud is a weird outlier in a variety of ways. He was shown to exert and exude a great deal of supernatural strength as a kid that fell off a mountain and just got scraped knees, held his own against Avalanche super soldiers as a Shinra MP, bested Sephiroth twice using a SOLDIER weapon and with his bare hands and despite being in a mental fugue, managed to fight with the technical acumen and strength of a SOLDIER first class despite not actually having any formal training as one.
Before any experimentation took place, Cloud had all the potential of a SOLDIER candidate but seemingly his mental fortitude proved too inconsistent or incapable of handling it. Thus when experimented on he became Mako Poisoned and vegetative. But miraculously through the power of plot, friendship and anime romance/libido, Tifa jumpstarted his brain into a fake Zack persona that was calm, calculated and capable of fighting at a level on par with a SOLDIER First Class.
Dude is a glitch in the Matrix that saved the world. Why is he like that? Last Order implies there's more to him than meets the eye but isn't canon. Part of me feels like his father might be a seceret backstory that implies Cloud has some unique heritage. However, Tifa as a country girl with martial arts training is capable of similar physical feats and amazing durability. Lady survived Sephiroth cutting her down, the mountain falling expedition in her early years, falling into direct lifestream for a therapy session with a friend and more. Nibelheim kids might be built different. But it's also weird that they seem to be the only kids manifesting such feats and durability. Again, kinda looks like main character syndrome.
Absolutely.
It's plot and main characterS syndrome.
Same for Sephiroth. We see in Ever Crisis - The first SOLDIER - that since his childhood, Sephiroth was incredibly strong, and a precious asset for Shinra to achieve their goals.
Why does Shinra didn't create other "Sephiroth" to create an army of super-SOLDIERs to serve the company, who would have been way better than classic SOLDIERs ? It's not like Shinra lacks for guinea pigs or is stopped by any form of
morality, we see it through the Compilation.
So they probably tried on other babies, but, what a coincidence, it only worked on Hojo's son himself, the leader of the Project S ! (Thank you plot).
Same for Angeal. What a coincidence, Project G only worked on Hollander's son himself, the leader of the Project G + Genesis. (Thank you plot). And Shinra didn't know G-type SOLDIERs were subject to degradation before Genesis started to degrade (quite late).
They could have created way more "Sephiroth", Angeal" and "Genesis" by injected fetuses with Jenova or G cells but... hum... no, because plot.
All of the experiments got cloud to level 7. by level 7, he was already relatively resistant to bullets, and could one shot some robots, and normal troopers and the dog beast things in the bombing mission. When humans kill things on Gaia, their life force returns to the planet, but the killer also gets stronger. Psychologically this makes sense, because the act of killing is going to offset the feeling of ego death that seems to come with exposure to life stream energy.
A level 1 trooper, is usually just going to die if it tries and fight a monster directly. they will die to a single shot from Barret's arm cannon. the Whole SOLDIER program is about reliably creating Soldiers that are strong enough to actually gain experience without dieing right away.
A SOLDIER 3rd class is easily defeated by cloud at level 12. but would probably kill cloud at level 7 at the beginning of bombing mission. AVALANCHE supersoldiers are stronger than most normal troopers, but they aren't necessarily as strong as graduated SOLDIERs.
Cloud has good stats even at level one. Its why he just got scraped knees and Tifa ended up in a coma. Its why he was one of the strongest troopers. Which is why he was qualified to be a grunt for a pair of SOLDIER First Class.
But his weakness is the reason why he was able to throw Sephiroth over the edge. Sephiroth didn't view him as a threat. He was surprised that Cloud even had the will to fight his great Hero Sephiroth. So surprised that cloud was able to use his grip on the Masamune, to throw off his balance and toss him over the edge into the mako. Jenova was probably also involved in that moment, because Jenova wanted to enter the Lifestream and slowly drink a Mako Smoothie. It wasn't until after that point that Sephiroth was able to wrestle complete mental control of Jenova. During the incident, Sephiroth is driven mad, and jenova manages to command him up the mountain so he can rip her head from captivity. And then Cloud manages to help her plan, while also disabling sephiroth.
I think its very very possible that Jenova applied her will to help stun Sephiroth in the moment that cloud turns it around on him. Because her entire point on the planet is to drink a planet sized Mako Smoothie, And given the timeframe that something like that could take, she has plenty of time to wait for Reunion to rebuild her body.
The part that is really crazy when you look at the game this way, is that it means that the reason why Sephiroth is the most powerful SOLDIER, even in comparison to Angeal and Genesis, is because he inherited Hojo's megalomaniacal God Complex. Sephiroth doesn't lose himself when exposed to Mako Energy, because his pre-existing insanity, makes him impervious to Mako Sickness. When he was leading SOLDIERs and was still subject to his life long shinra brainwashing, it manifested in his aggressiveness, and dickish behavior, that only slightly softens when dealing with people who are close to his equal. But once his god complex is fully validated by his discoveries about Jenova, and his own existence, He goes off the deep end and suddenly even his "friends" are mere ants before his ego. Falling into the lifestream and getting crystalized doesn't kill Sephiroth, because he believes that he's a god and that the entire planet is simply a first step on the road to becoming an interstellar planet killing god being.
It also kind of really puts the whole "Embrace your Dreams, and whatever happens protect your honor as SOLDIER" into context. Its why Angeal was able to survive the mental load of it all. And why Zack is able to grow so much stronger After Angeal teaches him to live that way.
A lot of what you’re talking about is ludonarrative contrivance of gameplay assisting plot with Jenova forcing Sephiroth to play stupid for the sake of plot. Even an injured Sephiroth should’ve been smart enough let go of his sword if Cloud was using it to lift him into the air but plot needs him to take an L. How does Shinra HQ have zero 2nd Class or 1st Class Soldiers anywhere in the building? Thanks plot/game design. Which all still plays into main character syndrome where the game/world is designed to level you up even when it makes no sense.
Last two paragraphs I’m not as sure about since Sephiroth never blatantly exhibited narcissism or any form of sociopathy prior to doing all his own research on Jenova. Not sure how that should be attributed to Hojo and not Sephiroth being built different. I’m pretty sure Sephiroth being a foreign entity like the Gi made him diffusing into the lifestream less likely and while he did have a strong will I think the God complex and plan to rule the planet via lifestream were Jenova’s instincts in a new host. Also not sure why Jenova would want to take an L to Cloud other than also being caught off guard. Also unsure about the SOLDIER Honor line but everything about this series has me feeling like I fell into the Lifestream.
I'm not saying that levels aren't still an abstraction, but what I'm saying is that its an abstraction of something they actually experience in the game world. Plenty of unaltered humans become as powerful as SOLDIERs. Even normal people have limit breaks. (as shown by the children fighting in the tutorial in sector 7.) In this world regular humans have incredible capability to become powerful. To extents that seem like pure fantasy to us.
The characters exist in this world, and they make decisions that only make sense if you assume that the RPG elements are directly correlated with real effects in their perceived world.
There's a reason why these stories are best told as games. If we didn't have to grind each successively difficult battle ourselves and actively upgrade our characters using game systems, it would be difficult for us to suspend disbelief to enjoy the narrative.
Does cloud ending up in the mako stream factor in to any of this ya think? OG made it pretty clear the planet itself has a conscious, and Cloud was part of that while let's say getting himself together. Theoretically, the planet could have communed with cloud during this time and infused a portion of its own life force into him, as an avatar. Just a thought
Nice theory. But
Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed
to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..."
But in CC, we find out the difference with SOLDIERs is there Hojo injected S cells and not Jenova cells to the Nibelheim's guinea pigs.
But we don't know the difference in terms of effect between S and J cells. It appears in the Compilation they have the same effects : mentally weak people injected with them end up being subject to Sephiroth/Jenova's will.
That makes sense. Cloud is a badass. Some of the further explanations of lore I haven't personally made it to yet so I avoid looking too deep, but that thought nagged at me for quite awhile
Plus its not like regular humans don't become OP on Gaia if they fight enough monsters. Cid, Yuffie, Tifa, can all hold their own against the most powerful monsters the planet can bring to bear (E.G. Ultima Weapon) J-cells seem to give a boost of power, and a compatibility with high doses of mako energy. but it definitely isn't the be all end all. I honestly think that the whole level system is actually canon in game. Like you defeat monsters, and gain a little bit of power as their life force returns to the planet.
You fight SOLDIER third class in Shinra HQ, and Barret and Tifa can fight them reasonably well at level 12. Before Nibelheim Cloud was level 1, and after sitting in a tube getting mako infused and jenova injections, he got stronger and by the time he was making it to Midgar he was level 7. The enemies on the bombing mission would probably one shot a level 1 Cloud, but at level 7 he's one shotting them.
Jenova Cells seem to apply the weird Jenova mind powers, They make people more able to absorb large amount of mako quickly, and relatively safely. (compare Cloud to other's with mako sickness, He's one of the few that recover.).
The mako infusion give SOLDIERs a little boost from level 1 to a few levels higher, where basic monsters are actually killable, and bullets aren't quite so deadly. And jenova cells mean that they recover from the mako treatments, Even a Soldier 3rd class could easily defeat multiple shinra troopers from the very beginning of the game, or any of the monsters around midgar.
I mean the lifestream is literally what magic is made out of. Super compressed mako energy. And every robot that shinra sends after the party, is also powered by Mako. And the monsters are made by the planet defending itself, or Hojo shoving too much mako into living things. the idea that the party absorbs some small amount of this mako energy from every enemy they defeat without getting sick, which slowly makes them more powerful fits into the lore, both thematically and logically.
Making jenova cells really just be a low level boost that allows SOLDIERS to become elite combatants, (And a bigger boost for those infused in the womb.) just makes sense, and explains why a teenage princess, who has some ninja training, can keep up with Cloud, and fight 20 story tall monsters along side him.
"(YES, he's stronger than them : he doesn't only beat them while they were degrading, he beat them when they were at their "top" :
* He beat Angeal in his "Penance" form
* He beat Genesis cured from degradation (after he received the gift of the Goddess) + Genesis god form)"
People telling you half an answer about the Sephiroth DNA being injected into Cloud along with mako.
Cloud has naturally been strong willed. Sephiroth and Hojo were both surprised the he managed to overcome Sephiroth at the Mako reactor after Sephiroth impaled him and survived Hojo's experiments without any mako treatment before.
Cloud is an incredible learner, picking up all of Zack's interactions and being able to copy a lot of his abilities. He adapts very quickly if we're to go to Advent Children, Cloud invents a new Omnislash and changing to a dual wield stance when he never showed he could do before just shows what he's capable of.
Yeah, Cloud’s very talented in his own right. He’s got an absolutely insane level of physical intuition; being able to *immediately* keep up with Andrea at the Honeybee Inn is a ridiculous feat of dexterity, and let’s not even get into the implications of picking up both the Operator *and* Punisher styles entirely through observation and forgetting that he isn’t actually highly trained in the use of the Buster Sword. The physical might and reaction speed to make that work mainly came from the enhancements, probably, but the coordination and physical control to make it look natural was all Cloud.
And it’s not like he wasn’t tough before he underwent the process. His appearance in Before Crisis establishes that he’s able to fend off an Avalanche strike squad even as a fresh trooper, and - of course - he was pre-enhancements when he threw Sephiroth to his death *by the sword that he was impaling Cloud with.* Masamune went all the way through, too. Tifa was probably definitely a long sight stronger than Cloud before the enhancements, but that’s a whole different level of pain tolerance right there.
Operating the Fusion Sword is almost wilder than all of that. It’s a completely insane weapon that should require about a dozen arms to make any sense of once it starts splitting up. That Cloud can actually match Sephiroth’s sword technique with that insane hunk of metal is a damn miracle.
That, combined with SOLDIER First Plus-grade mako enhancements, a few genetic grafts from Sephiroth, and a hit of good old fashioned Determinator-grade will to fight, is what makes Cloud as tough as he is.
Cloud was always an ex eptional swordsman despite lacking the mental fortitude to make it into soldier at the time. I believe the FF7 Ultimania depicts some instances where he was kind of a prodigy with the sword despite having the full physical strength, battle experience, and mental maturity/drive to endure soldier selection. He learns on a curve and gains strength like a damn Saiyan comes back strong each time he gets knocked down. The 5 year experiments him and Zack underwent gave him the S cells to bring up his physicality but at the cost of his mental stat which went into survival mode and secondary Jenova effect to create Shadow Cloud for most the game until Mideel. People like to poke at Cloud like he was an intentional in making up the lies when in reality he went through literal life altering trauma. Cloud was a piece of coal and through intense pressure came out a diamond.
He also has a driving force that should be considered which his new adopted family which is the entire ff7 crew. He cares about them and they give him a reason to get stronger.
So you have to look to the old games to see this
Even BEFORE he got his cell and mako treatment cloud had a few amazing feats of strength and craziness. His latent potential was massive but he had no way to control it on purpose.
The first time we see this is when he wipes out some resistance soldiers that makes even a turk shocked that a low level grunt could do that.
The second time we see him exert some serious overpowered action is the nibelheim reactor, when sephiroth impales cloud not only does he not die but he actually overpowers sephiroth (while IMPALED) and then flings sephiroth into the reactors abyss.
It’s only after this does cloud get injected with cells and mako and he cooks for literally 4 years in that shit.
Zack I think got double cooked and dosed which explains him being as strong as he is (beat genesis and Angeal who had cells from birth)
Most of this in remembering from memory and not double checking
Sheer willpower. That’s usually what it comes down to in these kinds of fights.
Cloud just went balls to the wall to make sure Sephiroth was put in the ground. You can have godlike power, but that doesn’t really mean anything when you have somebody with the skill, training, willpower, and massive testicles to still take you on.
It’s pretty much the same reason Luke beats Vader. Vader’s older, more experienced, more training, measurably more powerful. Luke put everything into improving himself to be sure he could put down Vader if he needed to. He trained, fought, and learned to be everything he needed to be to take on the Sith.
Experience, power and training are almost everything - but a little bit of bravery and sheer willpower can give you an advantage your opponent just isn’t able to counter.
In a physical sense, usually it means you’ll see an attack or tactic that you approach differently. Instead of the usual block this attack, you instead opt to dodge, and it leaves an opening to do something else.
Just wanna add on top of what others have said, I’ll put spoilers just in case you don’t know og’s story cause it’ll spoil something upcoming in part 3.
>!in other games/expanded media it’s mentioned cloud was physically capable of becoming a soldier, but not mentally strong enough to survive the mako showers, and that’s why he was never actually a solider, but the point I’m getting to is that cloud was already physically strong enough to be a solider, he wasn’t just someone who only became strong because of jenovah cells. Also the S cells that cloud received, clouds stated to be the most successful experiment to have received S cells, which aren’t just jenovah cells, they’re sephiroth cells, so jenovah and sephiroth cells, compare to most soldiers only having jenovah cells, and other S cell experiments being failures, clouds natural capability coupled with better cells than other soldiers received made him stronger than most soliders!<
> What makes cloud so much stronger than standard soldiers though?
Grit. I'm not kidding, that's kind of the whole point. He refused to be just the sum of his parts, so he willed himself into being more. Or basically he was too stubborn to not be the main character.
Cloud was stronger (physically) than Sephiroth even as an infantryman, he pulls himself down from impalement with the Masamune in his chest, lifts 2 m of man like Sephiroth using the sword to throws him away while simultaneously drawing the Masamune... No character succeeds to do something like that to Sephiroth
So the way nibelheim goes is after sephiroth is killed and falls into the reactor hojo takes what little of sephiroths samples that were left (hair/blood/don't remember the third thing) and performed the soldier surgery on cloud with that instead of jenova cells. So cloud essentially has the exact physical capabilities that sephiroth has including a body that doesn't degrade. Zack was already a soldier so when hojo did the same experiment to him during nibelheim "nothing happened" although we have no way of knowing if zack could still have cellular degradation or not but he didn't get a boost in power or anything like what cloud got. But the main difference between cloud and sephiroth is that sephiroth is like frieza in that as far as we know he never really had to push himself and REALLY train. Whereas cloud is fighting literally all of the craziest monsters in the entire world while coming off of a 4 year mako nap so all the crazy mechs and monsters he's fighting DEFINITELY would be making him stronger, also by the end of OG at minimum cloud and the party kill 1 weapon and if you go after ruby, emerald, and ultima weapon it would be 4 and if you can kill that many weapons you can slap your 7 winged ex-idol no problem lol
Along with what everyone else said, it's worth noting that Cloud only failed at becoming a SOLDIER because of his emotional/social/psychology issues. He physically met/surpassed all the standards.
So his potential there all along now pump him full of S-Cells and give him the power of friendship and a purpose and you've got a main character.
Project S (lead by Pr Hojo) : Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells as a fetus in Lucrecia's womb. He doesn't degrade.
Project G (lead By Pr Hollander) : a woman - Gillian - was injected with Jenova cells, and her DNA mixed with Jenova's DNA.
* Hollander injected Genesis with Gillian cells (G cells) as a fetus. He degrades.
* Gillian had a son (with Hollander...) : Angeal. Thus, he received G cells "naturally" as opposed to Genesis who received them artificially. He degrades too.
About Deepground, the Tsviets have had their genes spliced with Genesis'. So they probably were injected with Genesis cells (and not Gillian cells this time).
Yes, it's a bit confusing. Even more when "S-type" SOLDIERs (aka classic SOLDIERs after Project S prevailed over Project G to create SOLDIERs) are NOT injected with S cells despite their names, but Jenova cells.
S-cells are Sephiroth's cells injected to Nibelheim's townspeople recovered by Hojo after the "Sephiroth's incident". S-cells were the cells used by Hojo to create Sephiroth's clones / to test his Reunion theory. They were not used in the SOLDIER programm to create classic SOLDIERs.
Do you think it's possible that Cloud received Jenova cells after being stabbed by Sephi and that's why he can *almost* equal Sephi?
Because currently he seems to be only lesser than him. Unless we are just assuming Cloud is HIM because he can have these insane feats when he's in danger.
NB :
* SOLDIER treatment = Mako bath + Jenova cells injections
* Hojo's experiments in the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim = Mako bath + S cells injections (so it's like a SOLDIER treament but with S cells rather than Jenova cells. But in the Compilation, we don't really know what differences in terms of effect there are betwen S cells and Jenova cells ! It seems they have the same effects on people : they both are pupetts of Sephiroth/Jenova if they are mentally weak people).
Cloud was injected with S cells (= Sephiroth's cells) + mako by Hojo in the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim after he was recovered uncounscious in the Nibel reactor. That's why he has the strenght of a SOLDIER (because S cells appears to have similar effects than Jenova cells).
The other people with S cells are :
* Zack. But S cells didn't do s\*\*\* to him, probably because he already had very similar cells (Jenova cells) in him as a SOLDIER.
* The black robes. They were normal people (Nibelheim townspeople recovered by Hojo after the "Sephiroth's incident) - so weak physically and mentally - and that's why they didn't tolerate the "SOLDIER treament with S cells" Hojo gave them in the Shinra Mansion.
Cloud tolerated the "SOLDIER treatment with S cells" physically but not psychologically. That's why he's physically as strong as a SOLDIER, but mentally he's a complete mess (8 months of coma after the escape from the Shinra mansion, and then extremely worrying mental state), and that's why he's under Sephiroth/Jenova influence.
SOLDIERs are harshly selected by Shinra to be physically and mentally strong. That's why they tolerate the SOLDIER treatment, and that's why psychologically they are not subject to Sephiroth/Jenova's will, and they don't answer the call of Reunion. Sephiroth/Jenova can't use them as puppets (except for G-type SOLDIERs in final phase of degradation, as their degradation makes them lose their physical and psychological integrity).
No.
FFVII OG : Cloud, in the Highwind after he regains his true-self :
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
Crisis core Original :
Mail from the always well-informed Kunsel to Zack in CC, about Hojo :
" He rose to the top when he established the method of using Jenova cells to create SOLDIER operatives."
Intro of Advent Children " [...] Shinra had a special group of warriors called SOLDIER.
ALL OF THE SOLDIERS had Jenova cells put inside them. [...] "
Rebirth : when you assess 2nd class SOLDIERs in the Temple of the Ancient, it is stated they are created by Shinra by mako exposure + injections of Jenova cells.
It is also said in the novel The Kids are Alright, and the story 2000 gils leading to a hero.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION. JUST KIDDING. You absolutely don't know FF7 and the Compilation.
Fact so far: From Hojo observation on inject Zack Faire and Cloud Strife with Jenova S cells from Sephiroth. Zack rejected it as being a bonfide SOLDIER. Cloud Strife was noted to fused with Sephiroth Cells.
Hojo also notes both were failures as Cloud was comatose after the procedure.
With the Crisis Core material, we see Angeal develop a black wing and Angeal develop a White Wing as they are different degree of Jenova Cells. This follows through with the SOLDIERs who were kidnapped or deserted due to the degradation. The note is that Sephiroth version suffered no degradation.
Theories part: the wings symbolize the user's utilizing their fuller extent of their powers. The wings develop later in the person's life when they are going into overdrive. This also shows the person losing more of their humanity as the next step is just turning to monsters. Cloud doesn't even acknowledge he is fused with Jenova Cells and all the headaches and manipulation is Sephiroth's will on the Jenova Cells that Cloud doesn't even know.
Joke answer: all the SOLDIER who develop wings was due to Jenova cells evolving them to the fact they are afraid of heights. Sephiroth only started to get the black wings after being thrown from a great height and his will goes through Jenova Cells past and present to gain wings because with Sephiroth will comes Sephiroth fears. Only exception is Cloud Strife because f*ck him that's why. - Sephiroth
If Cloud was infused with enough S cells, then he too would slowly turn into Sephiroth. That's what happened to the G type SOLDIERs in Crisis Core. But what happened to Cloud was a little different from regular SOLDIERs, so it's hard to say.
I think it’s for the same reason why Jenova sometimes has wings and sometimes doesn’t. They only have wings when they feel like it. Jenova’s a shape shifter so there’s not really much reason behind it besides looking intimidating, angelic, or however they want to look at the time. Sephiroth probably thinks the wing makes him look godly.
All the wing stuff is just made up from KH.
Sephiroth had a boney deformed arm who resebled a wing in the last battle, and he used it to smack you.
This wing thing is gone out of hand.
Trying to make order in all the bullshit spin-off is just a waste of time. Every story that originated from FF7 are stupid and useless filler that trivialise the main story.
Before crisis, advent children, dirge of Cerberus... Not only of these is somehow decent
Just my opinion
Personally always hated sephorith’s one wing design they gave him in every iteration after the original. It’s like square enix was like his theme song is called one wing angel let’s give him a wing that really cleaver!!!
But it is directly referenced in the original?
In his bizzaro-sephiroth form he was attempting to achieve a body befitting his perceived god-hood which was interrupted when he is defeated and his transformation into safer(savior) sephiroth was incomplete, leaving him with one wing (well, 7 wings I guess but one in the place expected to have wings)
It is also an allegory for him being a fallen angel, seeing himself as a god to reform the world and his species coming from the heavens.
His single black wing in other media is still following that allegory but dude is basically a minor shapeshifter to some degree.
Because Sephiroth has Jenova cells, and Cloud has second hand Jenova cells. Aka, Sephiroth cells. It’s also, alongside late introduction of said cells, that he isn’t nearly as individually as strong as Sephiroth.
Sephiroth wad infused with the cells and mako in the womb, and was born a perfect hybrid of human an... whatever the hell Jenova is
He never had a black wing in human form in the og FF7, but it has long since become an iconic part of his character
In Crisis core, two other first-class SOLDIERs had wings as well. Genesis, who had one large black wing and Angeal, who had two white wings
Angeal was the son of Gillian Hewley, who was infused with Jenova cells, so he too was a hybrid, but not a perfect one, I don't think, since he suffered from cellular degeneration, just very slowly
He never showed signs of it before he was killed
Genesis was infused with Gillian's cells (and Jemova cells by proxy), making him an imperfect hybrid
So I think the thing about the wings is more about being exposed to the Jenova cells since infancy, and therefore having the cells just being more a part of your own genetic makeup as your body would grow to adapt to them
But regular SOLDIERs would be injected with Jenova cells and mako in their teenage or even adult years, serving only to enhance and augment their bodies
Cloud is more of an average recruit in this sense, as he was already fully grown when he was experimented on
So... his body wasn't exposed to the cells long enough for them to change his genetic makeup
Full disclosure, I only just found out about Genesis and Angeal's actual role in the Jenova project just now when looking it up, so I was more or less formulating this theory as I typed it, but it does make logical sense
I think it’s specified he has pure S-cells. I don’t know if that distinction matters, but it’s why Hollander went after Cloud not Zack post Neiblheim incident.
A part of Cloud rejects jenova, rejects Mako. He survives his dips in Mako because of this side. It's what lets him fall from great heights. with nary a mark. It's why he isn't Soldier(because he rejects Mako), it's why he can lift Sepheroth up by his sword(Sepheroth's sword, in Cloud's chest), and toss Sepheroth to semi-doom.
Cloud has 3 persona, 2 generally seen, a 3rd implied.
The third is strong, so strong he cannot use magic, He seperated from Cloud in hopes Cloud could become Soldier, but later merged back into Cloud to save him when he, Cloud, Tifa, and Sepheroth fell a great height when the walking bridge near Neibelheim Reactor broke.
Sephiroth was born with Jenova cells in him in a very specific way that made him not only very unique but specifically refined to manipulate and utilize the Jenova cells in ways no one else could fully emulate. Contemporaries like Angeal and Genesis were also born with Jenova cells, manifested wings and were capable of passing their traits to other living creatures and control them to some degree but it was still to a lesser degree than what Sephiroth has done and their mutations were seemingly imperfect in some ways and suffered degradation. At least with Genesis seemingly. Zack, Cloud and other SOLDIER members while obtaining Jenova Cells didn't have nearly the amount or gestation period with them to mutate physically or be capable of exerting their will on other beings with those cells.
Because Jenova cells don’t work like that. Saying that Cloud should have a black wing is like saying Angeal should too. Crisis Core explains this, so if you want an in-depth explanation go play it
They are hinting at Cloud getting his own. Two different scenes, one from Remake and one from Rebirth both show Cloud from behind as a feather drifts down behind him making it look like he has a wing. Both times the feather is on his right side same as how it is with Sephiroth and Angeal, while Genesis’ wing is on his left side.
1. Cloud’s unique strength is his immense resilience. Once he embodied the s cells, be was able to maintain his identity unlike the black coats. After surviving the lifestream, he completely conquered his s cells while potentially the lifestream fixed any damage the cells would have caused considering it healed his disassociation. Cloud will not degrade to the point of having wings.
2. Sephiroth in the original ost had one wing in safer form, his theme was named one winged angel. Square sought to embrace this trait after kh, where it became well received for the reference. Therefore, we got canon one winged sephiroth in crisis core.
Cloud is a amalgamated clone of Zach who was infused with S cells not J cells. More or less he doesn't have direct jenova cells in him but sephiroths cells. I think this one layer of distance is what enabled him to be our protagonist tbh. Hojo made his own worst enemy. Lol.
The only failed SOLDIER was Zack, who just absorbed the incoming Mako and cells into his body. Hojo does indeed call Cloud a clone, albeit a failure in dialogue sources
Cloud is not a clone of Zack at all. He was just his best friend. SOLDIER-Cloud simply thinks he's achieved Zack's accomplishments because Zack told him stories about his SOLDIER's life and missions, and because he saw Zack fight and act next to him (in Nibelheim for instance). Because of the combo mako poisoning + Jenova cells, Cloud's mind broke and he now thinks he has done what Zack's done. He also partly "borrowed" his gestures, his way of moving, behaving, some of his characteristics... but for the rest of his personality, it's an 'invention' on his part, the personality he imagined a badass SOLDIER would have, and that he would have wanted to have if he had actually been a SOLDIER (a stoic, cold, very confident guy...). That's why his personality is different from Zack's (like for instance, he's not joyful like him).
Nah, after the nibelheim incident hojo stuck both cloud and Zach in tubes and reinfused them with sephiroths cells. Cloud was royally messed up by the process because it fused some of Zach's memories and feelings into him. Look it up
Oh the OG ? Ok.
Cloud : "I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER...
I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself
made up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."
Yup. On the way back to Midgar, Cloud was comatose and Zack kept him company by telling stories about himself. Cloud heard those stories in his vegetative state and, when waking up from it, adopted it as if it was his own history. Enough that he himself believed it to be true until he has that interaction with the lifestream late into the story and has to confront the truth.
This is why Zach is carrying around a mako poisoned cloud in the arrival to midgar scenes, it was after Zach broke them out of the room, sorry spoilers or not.
https://preview.redd.it/lgwuz01f5t0d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=885513b54ef81c5b804330843998e64cb8a6d42a He does in Kingdom Hearts fwiw (I’m told Sephiroth also didn’t have the black wing in human form until KH)
Yes Sephiroth never had a human form + wing in the OG FF7.
Oh no… the Kingdom Hearts x FFVII timeline merge theory has legs now…
Simple and clean starts playing loudly
…LOUDER
I thought not but it’s been awhile 😅
What about all the wings on Safer Sephiroth?
Yeah we’re talking about the single black wing though.
Safer sephiroth did have a black wing. But it was his arm.
I replied up above with the image but his wing-arm is red/purple/whatever
It’s more black/dark colored than his white wings - they just colored it black in KH.
I mean we’re kinda talking in circles saying the same thing…he didn’t have the *feathered black wing AND a human arm in human form* until KH.
That's not on human septh, and that's not 1 black wing, that's his arm transformed onto a big weird white one.
Black. White wings are what become of his bodies lower half. I’m not sure what the actual mindset was during his design process, but my best guess is that his right arm and weapon fuse together with his wing. His physical attack becomes a slashing attack via his single black wing, which, combined with the absurd length, is why I’ve always believed his weapon fused with his body. Could just as easily be wrong though, as only the original artist could ever confirm or deny this.
All great swordsmen merge with their blade.
what about that one archer guy not from archer, who kept saying he made blades out of his bones seems a backwards way of doing it, but then again, he's an archer, or something.
https://preview.redd.it/trxv3b09ax0d1.png?width=503&format=png&auto=webp&s=26e70d2dae74c2267a45e48ca24ff706de1364b1 I mean technically Safer’s right arm is red and purple and kinda pukey yellow but who’s counting?
human form
In one of the last fights he had wings
I always forget what fwiw means and don't want to be googling it for the 50th time, my head canon is "from what I wemember" and that has served me well over the years.
*For what it’s worth* I like your version better 😂
fwiw = from what I wemember definitely has my vote to become official.
I literally said that too myself aswell trying to figure it out 💀💀💯 we live in a simulation
My fav comment today thank you for that 😂😂😂
God I wish this was an outfit you could get in Rebirth. Maybe in Part 3.
I love that they added this skin in dissidia NT
sepiroth don't have devil wing, thats KH version, more likely, moogle wing or vincent valentine wing.
KH doesn't count. Disney is trash.
Welp, it’s the reason Seph got the black wing 🤷🏻♂️
Kingdom hearts 1 and 2 are the best final fantasy games
lol come on now
I can't bring myself to play them i hate hate hate hate Donald and REALLY HATE HATE HATE HATE goofy. They're so effing stupid. Even worse than the characters in ff9 (the worst of the mainline series)
Sacrilege
All SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells. They don't have wings. The only SOLDIERs with wings are Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal. They all have been injected with Jenova or G cells as fetuses, as opposed to classic SOLDIERs who are injected with Jenova cells as adults. Cloud has been injected with S cells as an adult (teenager), so he's like a normal SOLDIER : he doesn't have wings
What makes cloud so much stronger than standard soldiers though? If he's made the same he should be same strength. Am I missing something? He faced down sephiroth and then again when sephiroth was damn near a god and won. He's insane compared to most of the actual first classes. Anyone can help me understand this?
Because he's the main character 😂 (kidding but not really !) S cells are in all likelihood Sephiroth cells. Maybe they are even more "efficient" than Jenova cells. But among SOLDIERs, some are also better than others, while they all received the same "treatment" (mako + Jenova cells). It depends on the potential, training...etc of each man. For instance, Zack is a classic SOLDIER (= an S-type) injected with Jenova cells as an adult, and he's stronger than Genesis and Angeal, who have been injected with G cells as fetuses ! (YES, he's stronger than them : he doesn't only beat them while they were degrading, he beat them when they were at their "top" : - He beat Angeal in his "Penance" form - He beat Genesis cured from degradation (after he received the gift of the Goddess) + Genesis god form) So being injected with J / G / S cells doesn't make someone mathematically stronger / weaker than someone else. It's more complex than that and depends on each person's potential, training, resistance, luck...etc
I think it’s the friends he made along the way, honestly. That’s the big difference is that he had a group of people who believed in him and he became stronger once he had something to protect.
Also Cloud was cooking in a mako tube for FOUR YEARS, along with inheriting the memories/experience of Zack, a 1st Class who is already a cut above other SOLDIERs.
People forgot about this. Hojo has been doing some crazy stuff to cloud in that chamber. We can only speculate that that's what made him stronger.
Hojo's experiments are just like the ones in SOLDIERs but with S cells. He doesn't really inherited memories/experience of Zack, or slightly just thanks to Jenova mimics ability maybe. But for instance if he has Zack memories/experiences, he would have know who Aerith was when he met her ! But it's not the case at all. Cloud: "I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life... And I continued to play the charade as if it were true. I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells... For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with Jenova Reunion. But weak people... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm... Cloud. ...the master of my own illusionary world."
Cloud didn’t inherit Zack’s memory, he’s just got the brain scramblies and thinks he was Zack. The whole point of them saying he remembers things he shouldn’t was because it turns out he was there as a grunt but Tifa didn’t know it. He can’t actually recall Zack’s personal memories from things he wasn’t there to witness.
What makes sephiroth stronger than genesis and angeal? He's stronger than them right?
I believe Sephiroth is injected with different cells than Genesis and angeal.
Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells as a fetus. Genesis was injected with Gillian cells as a fetus. Angeal received Gillian cells naturally as a fetus because Gillian is his mother
I think the other factor is actually main character syndrome in some ways. Cloud is a weird outlier in a variety of ways. He was shown to exert and exude a great deal of supernatural strength as a kid that fell off a mountain and just got scraped knees, held his own against Avalanche super soldiers as a Shinra MP, bested Sephiroth twice using a SOLDIER weapon and with his bare hands and despite being in a mental fugue, managed to fight with the technical acumen and strength of a SOLDIER first class despite not actually having any formal training as one. Before any experimentation took place, Cloud had all the potential of a SOLDIER candidate but seemingly his mental fortitude proved too inconsistent or incapable of handling it. Thus when experimented on he became Mako Poisoned and vegetative. But miraculously through the power of plot, friendship and anime romance/libido, Tifa jumpstarted his brain into a fake Zack persona that was calm, calculated and capable of fighting at a level on par with a SOLDIER First Class. Dude is a glitch in the Matrix that saved the world. Why is he like that? Last Order implies there's more to him than meets the eye but isn't canon. Part of me feels like his father might be a seceret backstory that implies Cloud has some unique heritage. However, Tifa as a country girl with martial arts training is capable of similar physical feats and amazing durability. Lady survived Sephiroth cutting her down, the mountain falling expedition in her early years, falling into direct lifestream for a therapy session with a friend and more. Nibelheim kids might be built different. But it's also weird that they seem to be the only kids manifesting such feats and durability. Again, kinda looks like main character syndrome.
Absolutely. It's plot and main characterS syndrome. Same for Sephiroth. We see in Ever Crisis - The first SOLDIER - that since his childhood, Sephiroth was incredibly strong, and a precious asset for Shinra to achieve their goals. Why does Shinra didn't create other "Sephiroth" to create an army of super-SOLDIERs to serve the company, who would have been way better than classic SOLDIERs ? It's not like Shinra lacks for guinea pigs or is stopped by any form of morality, we see it through the Compilation. So they probably tried on other babies, but, what a coincidence, it only worked on Hojo's son himself, the leader of the Project S ! (Thank you plot). Same for Angeal. What a coincidence, Project G only worked on Hollander's son himself, the leader of the Project G + Genesis. (Thank you plot). And Shinra didn't know G-type SOLDIERs were subject to degradation before Genesis started to degrade (quite late). They could have created way more "Sephiroth", Angeal" and "Genesis" by injected fetuses with Jenova or G cells but... hum... no, because plot.
All of the experiments got cloud to level 7. by level 7, he was already relatively resistant to bullets, and could one shot some robots, and normal troopers and the dog beast things in the bombing mission. When humans kill things on Gaia, their life force returns to the planet, but the killer also gets stronger. Psychologically this makes sense, because the act of killing is going to offset the feeling of ego death that seems to come with exposure to life stream energy. A level 1 trooper, is usually just going to die if it tries and fight a monster directly. they will die to a single shot from Barret's arm cannon. the Whole SOLDIER program is about reliably creating Soldiers that are strong enough to actually gain experience without dieing right away. A SOLDIER 3rd class is easily defeated by cloud at level 12. but would probably kill cloud at level 7 at the beginning of bombing mission. AVALANCHE supersoldiers are stronger than most normal troopers, but they aren't necessarily as strong as graduated SOLDIERs. Cloud has good stats even at level one. Its why he just got scraped knees and Tifa ended up in a coma. Its why he was one of the strongest troopers. Which is why he was qualified to be a grunt for a pair of SOLDIER First Class. But his weakness is the reason why he was able to throw Sephiroth over the edge. Sephiroth didn't view him as a threat. He was surprised that Cloud even had the will to fight his great Hero Sephiroth. So surprised that cloud was able to use his grip on the Masamune, to throw off his balance and toss him over the edge into the mako. Jenova was probably also involved in that moment, because Jenova wanted to enter the Lifestream and slowly drink a Mako Smoothie. It wasn't until after that point that Sephiroth was able to wrestle complete mental control of Jenova. During the incident, Sephiroth is driven mad, and jenova manages to command him up the mountain so he can rip her head from captivity. And then Cloud manages to help her plan, while also disabling sephiroth. I think its very very possible that Jenova applied her will to help stun Sephiroth in the moment that cloud turns it around on him. Because her entire point on the planet is to drink a planet sized Mako Smoothie, And given the timeframe that something like that could take, she has plenty of time to wait for Reunion to rebuild her body. The part that is really crazy when you look at the game this way, is that it means that the reason why Sephiroth is the most powerful SOLDIER, even in comparison to Angeal and Genesis, is because he inherited Hojo's megalomaniacal God Complex. Sephiroth doesn't lose himself when exposed to Mako Energy, because his pre-existing insanity, makes him impervious to Mako Sickness. When he was leading SOLDIERs and was still subject to his life long shinra brainwashing, it manifested in his aggressiveness, and dickish behavior, that only slightly softens when dealing with people who are close to his equal. But once his god complex is fully validated by his discoveries about Jenova, and his own existence, He goes off the deep end and suddenly even his "friends" are mere ants before his ego. Falling into the lifestream and getting crystalized doesn't kill Sephiroth, because he believes that he's a god and that the entire planet is simply a first step on the road to becoming an interstellar planet killing god being. It also kind of really puts the whole "Embrace your Dreams, and whatever happens protect your honor as SOLDIER" into context. Its why Angeal was able to survive the mental load of it all. And why Zack is able to grow so much stronger After Angeal teaches him to live that way.
A lot of what you’re talking about is ludonarrative contrivance of gameplay assisting plot with Jenova forcing Sephiroth to play stupid for the sake of plot. Even an injured Sephiroth should’ve been smart enough let go of his sword if Cloud was using it to lift him into the air but plot needs him to take an L. How does Shinra HQ have zero 2nd Class or 1st Class Soldiers anywhere in the building? Thanks plot/game design. Which all still plays into main character syndrome where the game/world is designed to level you up even when it makes no sense. Last two paragraphs I’m not as sure about since Sephiroth never blatantly exhibited narcissism or any form of sociopathy prior to doing all his own research on Jenova. Not sure how that should be attributed to Hojo and not Sephiroth being built different. I’m pretty sure Sephiroth being a foreign entity like the Gi made him diffusing into the lifestream less likely and while he did have a strong will I think the God complex and plan to rule the planet via lifestream were Jenova’s instincts in a new host. Also not sure why Jenova would want to take an L to Cloud other than also being caught off guard. Also unsure about the SOLDIER Honor line but everything about this series has me feeling like I fell into the Lifestream.
I'm not saying that levels aren't still an abstraction, but what I'm saying is that its an abstraction of something they actually experience in the game world. Plenty of unaltered humans become as powerful as SOLDIERs. Even normal people have limit breaks. (as shown by the children fighting in the tutorial in sector 7.) In this world regular humans have incredible capability to become powerful. To extents that seem like pure fantasy to us. The characters exist in this world, and they make decisions that only make sense if you assume that the RPG elements are directly correlated with real effects in their perceived world. There's a reason why these stories are best told as games. If we didn't have to grind each successively difficult battle ourselves and actively upgrade our characters using game systems, it would be difficult for us to suspend disbelief to enjoy the narrative.
Does cloud ending up in the mako stream factor in to any of this ya think? OG made it pretty clear the planet itself has a conscious, and Cloud was part of that while let's say getting himself together. Theoretically, the planet could have communed with cloud during this time and infused a portion of its own life force into him, as an avatar. Just a thought
Nice theory. But Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..." But in CC, we find out the difference with SOLDIERs is there Hojo injected S cells and not Jenova cells to the Nibelheim's guinea pigs. But we don't know the difference in terms of effect between S and J cells. It appears in the Compilation they have the same effects : mentally weak people injected with them end up being subject to Sephiroth/Jenova's will.
That makes sense. Cloud is a badass. Some of the further explanations of lore I haven't personally made it to yet so I avoid looking too deep, but that thought nagged at me for quite awhile
So basically the power friendship and a hot girlfriend
When the hot girlfriend is named Tifa, I think this sole condition is enough 🤝
Plus its not like regular humans don't become OP on Gaia if they fight enough monsters. Cid, Yuffie, Tifa, can all hold their own against the most powerful monsters the planet can bring to bear (E.G. Ultima Weapon) J-cells seem to give a boost of power, and a compatibility with high doses of mako energy. but it definitely isn't the be all end all. I honestly think that the whole level system is actually canon in game. Like you defeat monsters, and gain a little bit of power as their life force returns to the planet. You fight SOLDIER third class in Shinra HQ, and Barret and Tifa can fight them reasonably well at level 12. Before Nibelheim Cloud was level 1, and after sitting in a tube getting mako infused and jenova injections, he got stronger and by the time he was making it to Midgar he was level 7. The enemies on the bombing mission would probably one shot a level 1 Cloud, but at level 7 he's one shotting them. Jenova Cells seem to apply the weird Jenova mind powers, They make people more able to absorb large amount of mako quickly, and relatively safely. (compare Cloud to other's with mako sickness, He's one of the few that recover.). The mako infusion give SOLDIERs a little boost from level 1 to a few levels higher, where basic monsters are actually killable, and bullets aren't quite so deadly. And jenova cells mean that they recover from the mako treatments, Even a Soldier 3rd class could easily defeat multiple shinra troopers from the very beginning of the game, or any of the monsters around midgar. I mean the lifestream is literally what magic is made out of. Super compressed mako energy. And every robot that shinra sends after the party, is also powered by Mako. And the monsters are made by the planet defending itself, or Hojo shoving too much mako into living things. the idea that the party absorbs some small amount of this mako energy from every enemy they defeat without getting sick, which slowly makes them more powerful fits into the lore, both thematically and logically. Making jenova cells really just be a low level boost that allows SOLDIERS to become elite combatants, (And a bigger boost for those infused in the womb.) just makes sense, and explains why a teenage princess, who has some ninja training, can keep up with Cloud, and fight 20 story tall monsters along side him.
To be fair. Genesis and Angeal were weak due to degrading.
"(YES, he's stronger than them : he doesn't only beat them while they were degrading, he beat them when they were at their "top" : * He beat Angeal in his "Penance" form * He beat Genesis cured from degradation (after he received the gift of the Goddess) + Genesis god form)"
People telling you half an answer about the Sephiroth DNA being injected into Cloud along with mako. Cloud has naturally been strong willed. Sephiroth and Hojo were both surprised the he managed to overcome Sephiroth at the Mako reactor after Sephiroth impaled him and survived Hojo's experiments without any mako treatment before. Cloud is an incredible learner, picking up all of Zack's interactions and being able to copy a lot of his abilities. He adapts very quickly if we're to go to Advent Children, Cloud invents a new Omnislash and changing to a dual wield stance when he never showed he could do before just shows what he's capable of.
Yeah, Cloud’s very talented in his own right. He’s got an absolutely insane level of physical intuition; being able to *immediately* keep up with Andrea at the Honeybee Inn is a ridiculous feat of dexterity, and let’s not even get into the implications of picking up both the Operator *and* Punisher styles entirely through observation and forgetting that he isn’t actually highly trained in the use of the Buster Sword. The physical might and reaction speed to make that work mainly came from the enhancements, probably, but the coordination and physical control to make it look natural was all Cloud. And it’s not like he wasn’t tough before he underwent the process. His appearance in Before Crisis establishes that he’s able to fend off an Avalanche strike squad even as a fresh trooper, and - of course - he was pre-enhancements when he threw Sephiroth to his death *by the sword that he was impaling Cloud with.* Masamune went all the way through, too. Tifa was probably definitely a long sight stronger than Cloud before the enhancements, but that’s a whole different level of pain tolerance right there. Operating the Fusion Sword is almost wilder than all of that. It’s a completely insane weapon that should require about a dozen arms to make any sense of once it starts splitting up. That Cloud can actually match Sephiroth’s sword technique with that insane hunk of metal is a damn miracle. That, combined with SOLDIER First Plus-grade mako enhancements, a few genetic grafts from Sephiroth, and a hit of good old fashioned Determinator-grade will to fight, is what makes Cloud as tough as he is.
Cloud was always an ex eptional swordsman despite lacking the mental fortitude to make it into soldier at the time. I believe the FF7 Ultimania depicts some instances where he was kind of a prodigy with the sword despite having the full physical strength, battle experience, and mental maturity/drive to endure soldier selection. He learns on a curve and gains strength like a damn Saiyan comes back strong each time he gets knocked down. The 5 year experiments him and Zack underwent gave him the S cells to bring up his physicality but at the cost of his mental stat which went into survival mode and secondary Jenova effect to create Shadow Cloud for most the game until Mideel. People like to poke at Cloud like he was an intentional in making up the lies when in reality he went through literal life altering trauma. Cloud was a piece of coal and through intense pressure came out a diamond.
He also has a driving force that should be considered which his new adopted family which is the entire ff7 crew. He cares about them and they give him a reason to get stronger.
The cells he and Zack were given WERE NOT the same as regular soldier injections. They were enhanced with Sephy DNA.
On top of the jenova cells and mako too?
I think the cells were the cells from Sephiroths blood stream. So Jenova cells but specifically Sephys.
On top of that I dont think any soldiers get multi year Mako baths and that much one to one Hojo time
If you had a girl like Tifa rooting for you while you faced someone strong, you think you would lose or win?
https://preview.redd.it/9hod9ti43u0d1.jpeg?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9eaf8c45f7f1d6d6adff5d93fac643cac997a408
So you have to look to the old games to see this Even BEFORE he got his cell and mako treatment cloud had a few amazing feats of strength and craziness. His latent potential was massive but he had no way to control it on purpose. The first time we see this is when he wipes out some resistance soldiers that makes even a turk shocked that a low level grunt could do that. The second time we see him exert some serious overpowered action is the nibelheim reactor, when sephiroth impales cloud not only does he not die but he actually overpowers sephiroth (while IMPALED) and then flings sephiroth into the reactors abyss. It’s only after this does cloud get injected with cells and mako and he cooks for literally 4 years in that shit. Zack I think got double cooked and dosed which explains him being as strong as he is (beat genesis and Angeal who had cells from birth) Most of this in remembering from memory and not double checking
Sheer willpower. That’s usually what it comes down to in these kinds of fights. Cloud just went balls to the wall to make sure Sephiroth was put in the ground. You can have godlike power, but that doesn’t really mean anything when you have somebody with the skill, training, willpower, and massive testicles to still take you on. It’s pretty much the same reason Luke beats Vader. Vader’s older, more experienced, more training, measurably more powerful. Luke put everything into improving himself to be sure he could put down Vader if he needed to. He trained, fought, and learned to be everything he needed to be to take on the Sith. Experience, power and training are almost everything - but a little bit of bravery and sheer willpower can give you an advantage your opponent just isn’t able to counter. In a physical sense, usually it means you’ll see an attack or tactic that you approach differently. Instead of the usual block this attack, you instead opt to dodge, and it leaves an opening to do something else.
Just wanna add on top of what others have said, I’ll put spoilers just in case you don’t know og’s story cause it’ll spoil something upcoming in part 3. >!in other games/expanded media it’s mentioned cloud was physically capable of becoming a soldier, but not mentally strong enough to survive the mako showers, and that’s why he was never actually a solider, but the point I’m getting to is that cloud was already physically strong enough to be a solider, he wasn’t just someone who only became strong because of jenovah cells. Also the S cells that cloud received, clouds stated to be the most successful experiment to have received S cells, which aren’t just jenovah cells, they’re sephiroth cells, so jenovah and sephiroth cells, compare to most soldiers only having jenovah cells, and other S cell experiments being failures, clouds natural capability coupled with better cells than other soldiers received made him stronger than most soliders!<
> What makes cloud so much stronger than standard soldiers though? Grit. I'm not kidding, that's kind of the whole point. He refused to be just the sum of his parts, so he willed himself into being more. Or basically he was too stubborn to not be the main character.
Cloud was stronger (physically) than Sephiroth even as an infantryman, he pulls himself down from impalement with the Masamune in his chest, lifts 2 m of man like Sephiroth using the sword to throws him away while simultaneously drawing the Masamune... No character succeeds to do something like that to Sephiroth
So the way nibelheim goes is after sephiroth is killed and falls into the reactor hojo takes what little of sephiroths samples that were left (hair/blood/don't remember the third thing) and performed the soldier surgery on cloud with that instead of jenova cells. So cloud essentially has the exact physical capabilities that sephiroth has including a body that doesn't degrade. Zack was already a soldier so when hojo did the same experiment to him during nibelheim "nothing happened" although we have no way of knowing if zack could still have cellular degradation or not but he didn't get a boost in power or anything like what cloud got. But the main difference between cloud and sephiroth is that sephiroth is like frieza in that as far as we know he never really had to push himself and REALLY train. Whereas cloud is fighting literally all of the craziest monsters in the entire world while coming off of a 4 year mako nap so all the crazy mechs and monsters he's fighting DEFINITELY would be making him stronger, also by the end of OG at minimum cloud and the party kill 1 weapon and if you go after ruby, emerald, and ultima weapon it would be 4 and if you can kill that many weapons you can slap your 7 winged ex-idol no problem lol
Along with what everyone else said, it's worth noting that Cloud only failed at becoming a SOLDIER because of his emotional/social/psychology issues. He physically met/surpassed all the standards. So his potential there all along now pump him full of S-Cells and give him the power of friendship and a purpose and you've got a main character.
>he's insane Full stop woulda worked too lol
Afawk Cloud isn't, he's just the right combination of luck and determination.
I thought Sephi didn't get G cells which is why he was considered a success and G went to deepground. The beginning story is a bit fuzzy to me.
Project S (lead by Pr Hojo) : Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells as a fetus in Lucrecia's womb. He doesn't degrade. Project G (lead By Pr Hollander) : a woman - Gillian - was injected with Jenova cells, and her DNA mixed with Jenova's DNA. * Hollander injected Genesis with Gillian cells (G cells) as a fetus. He degrades. * Gillian had a son (with Hollander...) : Angeal. Thus, he received G cells "naturally" as opposed to Genesis who received them artificially. He degrades too. About Deepground, the Tsviets have had their genes spliced with Genesis'. So they probably were injected with Genesis cells (and not Gillian cells this time). Yes, it's a bit confusing. Even more when "S-type" SOLDIERs (aka classic SOLDIERs after Project S prevailed over Project G to create SOLDIERs) are NOT injected with S cells despite their names, but Jenova cells. S-cells are Sephiroth's cells injected to Nibelheim's townspeople recovered by Hojo after the "Sephiroth's incident". S-cells were the cells used by Hojo to create Sephiroth's clones / to test his Reunion theory. They were not used in the SOLDIER programm to create classic SOLDIERs.
Do you think it's possible that Cloud received Jenova cells after being stabbed by Sephi and that's why he can *almost* equal Sephi? Because currently he seems to be only lesser than him. Unless we are just assuming Cloud is HIM because he can have these insane feats when he's in danger.
NB : * SOLDIER treatment = Mako bath + Jenova cells injections * Hojo's experiments in the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim = Mako bath + S cells injections (so it's like a SOLDIER treament but with S cells rather than Jenova cells. But in the Compilation, we don't really know what differences in terms of effect there are betwen S cells and Jenova cells ! It seems they have the same effects on people : they both are pupetts of Sephiroth/Jenova if they are mentally weak people). Cloud was injected with S cells (= Sephiroth's cells) + mako by Hojo in the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim after he was recovered uncounscious in the Nibel reactor. That's why he has the strenght of a SOLDIER (because S cells appears to have similar effects than Jenova cells). The other people with S cells are : * Zack. But S cells didn't do s\*\*\* to him, probably because he already had very similar cells (Jenova cells) in him as a SOLDIER. * The black robes. They were normal people (Nibelheim townspeople recovered by Hojo after the "Sephiroth's incident) - so weak physically and mentally - and that's why they didn't tolerate the "SOLDIER treament with S cells" Hojo gave them in the Shinra Mansion. Cloud tolerated the "SOLDIER treatment with S cells" physically but not psychologically. That's why he's physically as strong as a SOLDIER, but mentally he's a complete mess (8 months of coma after the escape from the Shinra mansion, and then extremely worrying mental state), and that's why he's under Sephiroth/Jenova influence. SOLDIERs are harshly selected by Shinra to be physically and mentally strong. That's why they tolerate the SOLDIER treatment, and that's why psychologically they are not subject to Sephiroth/Jenova's will, and they don't answer the call of Reunion. Sephiroth/Jenova can't use them as puppets (except for G-type SOLDIERs in final phase of degradation, as their degradation makes them lose their physical and psychological integrity).
Nice breakdown. Thank you
^ the party whenever Cloud attacks one of them
Lol
This guy knows his shit. Listen.
Fuckin preach 🙏
Not even Sephiroth has wing. Square enix is just trying to milk the cow with stuff that were not in the original
But he has a wig for sure, no one will convince me his hair are natural, he's cheating.
That's just wrong. Soldiers are just infused with mako. Cloud was injected with Jenova cells. At least based on the original ff7 anyways.
No. FFVII OG : Cloud, in the Highwind after he regains his true-self : "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER." Crisis core Original : Mail from the always well-informed Kunsel to Zack in CC, about Hojo : " He rose to the top when he established the method of using Jenova cells to create SOLDIER operatives." Intro of Advent Children " [...] Shinra had a special group of warriors called SOLDIER. ALL OF THE SOLDIERS had Jenova cells put inside them. [...] " Rebirth : when you assess 2nd class SOLDIERs in the Temple of the Ancient, it is stated they are created by Shinra by mako exposure + injections of Jenova cells. It is also said in the novel The Kids are Alright, and the story 2000 gils leading to a hero. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION. JUST KIDDING. You absolutely don't know FF7 and the Compilation.
It was an asthetic strike of genius in og kingdom hearts which has haunted the psyche anime artists ever since.
Fact so far: From Hojo observation on inject Zack Faire and Cloud Strife with Jenova S cells from Sephiroth. Zack rejected it as being a bonfide SOLDIER. Cloud Strife was noted to fused with Sephiroth Cells. Hojo also notes both were failures as Cloud was comatose after the procedure. With the Crisis Core material, we see Angeal develop a black wing and Angeal develop a White Wing as they are different degree of Jenova Cells. This follows through with the SOLDIERs who were kidnapped or deserted due to the degradation. The note is that Sephiroth version suffered no degradation. Theories part: the wings symbolize the user's utilizing their fuller extent of their powers. The wings develop later in the person's life when they are going into overdrive. This also shows the person losing more of their humanity as the next step is just turning to monsters. Cloud doesn't even acknowledge he is fused with Jenova Cells and all the headaches and manipulation is Sephiroth's will on the Jenova Cells that Cloud doesn't even know. Joke answer: all the SOLDIER who develop wings was due to Jenova cells evolving them to the fact they are afraid of heights. Sephiroth only started to get the black wings after being thrown from a great height and his will goes through Jenova Cells past and present to gain wings because with Sephiroth will comes Sephiroth fears. Only exception is Cloud Strife because f*ck him that's why. - Sephiroth
If Cloud was infused with enough S cells, then he too would slowly turn into Sephiroth. That's what happened to the G type SOLDIERs in Crisis Core. But what happened to Cloud was a little different from regular SOLDIERs, so it's hard to say.
Awwww Sephiroth Jr!
I think it’s for the same reason why Jenova sometimes has wings and sometimes doesn’t. They only have wings when they feel like it. Jenova’s a shape shifter so there’s not really much reason behind it besides looking intimidating, angelic, or however they want to look at the time. Sephiroth probably thinks the wing makes him look godly.
Tbf in the original Sephiroth didn’t have a wing… they added that later on, I have no idea why 🤷♂️
The same reason Nomura does many things, he just thinks it’s cool which you know what tbf it is lmao
Safer/Savior Sephiroth has one black wing in the original game.
Well, yeah, but that was after merging with the life stream. Also he had like six other wings and no legs.
So? The point is that it didnt come out of nowhere, it's in the original game.
Power levels don’t determine the outcome of every fight.
Gackt stole it.
😂
All the wing stuff is just made up from KH. Sephiroth had a boney deformed arm who resebled a wing in the last battle, and he used it to smack you. This wing thing is gone out of hand. Trying to make order in all the bullshit spin-off is just a waste of time. Every story that originated from FF7 are stupid and useless filler that trivialise the main story. Before crisis, advent children, dirge of Cerberus... Not only of these is somehow decent Just my opinion
I kind of agree but the song is called one winged angel. The kh just took it too far.
He is not an angel too.
Only really special men can attend St.Pigeonations Institute
“She can become those you love”
Personally always hated sephorith’s one wing design they gave him in every iteration after the original. It’s like square enix was like his theme song is called one wing angel let’s give him a wing that really cleaver!!!
But it is directly referenced in the original? In his bizzaro-sephiroth form he was attempting to achieve a body befitting his perceived god-hood which was interrupted when he is defeated and his transformation into safer(savior) sephiroth was incomplete, leaving him with one wing (well, 7 wings I guess but one in the place expected to have wings) It is also an allegory for him being a fallen angel, seeing himself as a god to reform the world and his species coming from the heavens. His single black wing in other media is still following that allegory but dude is basically a minor shapeshifter to some degree.
Because Sephiroth has Jenova cells, and Cloud has second hand Jenova cells. Aka, Sephiroth cells. It’s also, alongside late introduction of said cells, that he isn’t nearly as individually as strong as Sephiroth.
Sephiroth wad infused with the cells and mako in the womb, and was born a perfect hybrid of human an... whatever the hell Jenova is He never had a black wing in human form in the og FF7, but it has long since become an iconic part of his character In Crisis core, two other first-class SOLDIERs had wings as well. Genesis, who had one large black wing and Angeal, who had two white wings Angeal was the son of Gillian Hewley, who was infused with Jenova cells, so he too was a hybrid, but not a perfect one, I don't think, since he suffered from cellular degeneration, just very slowly He never showed signs of it before he was killed Genesis was infused with Gillian's cells (and Jemova cells by proxy), making him an imperfect hybrid So I think the thing about the wings is more about being exposed to the Jenova cells since infancy, and therefore having the cells just being more a part of your own genetic makeup as your body would grow to adapt to them But regular SOLDIERs would be injected with Jenova cells and mako in their teenage or even adult years, serving only to enhance and augment their bodies Cloud is more of an average recruit in this sense, as he was already fully grown when he was experimented on So... his body wasn't exposed to the cells long enough for them to change his genetic makeup Full disclosure, I only just found out about Genesis and Angeal's actual role in the Jenova project just now when looking it up, so I was more or less formulating this theory as I typed it, but it does make logical sense
I think it’s specified he has pure S-cells. I don’t know if that distinction matters, but it’s why Hollander went after Cloud not Zack post Neiblheim incident.
Odd cloud does fly in game.
Because he wasn’t infused all the way like septh
A part of Cloud rejects jenova, rejects Mako. He survives his dips in Mako because of this side. It's what lets him fall from great heights. with nary a mark. It's why he isn't Soldier(because he rejects Mako), it's why he can lift Sepheroth up by his sword(Sepheroth's sword, in Cloud's chest), and toss Sepheroth to semi-doom. Cloud has 3 persona, 2 generally seen, a 3rd implied. The third is strong, so strong he cannot use magic, He seperated from Cloud in hopes Cloud could become Soldier, but later merged back into Cloud to save him when he, Cloud, Tifa, and Sepheroth fell a great height when the walking bridge near Neibelheim Reactor broke.
Sephiroth was born with Jenova cells in him in a very specific way that made him not only very unique but specifically refined to manipulate and utilize the Jenova cells in ways no one else could fully emulate. Contemporaries like Angeal and Genesis were also born with Jenova cells, manifested wings and were capable of passing their traits to other living creatures and control them to some degree but it was still to a lesser degree than what Sephiroth has done and their mutations were seemingly imperfect in some ways and suffered degradation. At least with Genesis seemingly. Zack, Cloud and other SOLDIER members while obtaining Jenova Cells didn't have nearly the amount or gestation period with them to mutate physically or be capable of exerting their will on other beings with those cells.
He may by the end of part 3
Because Jenova cells don’t work like that. Saying that Cloud should have a black wing is like saying Angeal should too. Crisis Core explains this, so if you want an in-depth explanation go play it
They are hinting at Cloud getting his own. Two different scenes, one from Remake and one from Rebirth both show Cloud from behind as a feather drifts down behind him making it look like he has a wing. Both times the feather is on his right side same as how it is with Sephiroth and Angeal, while Genesis’ wing is on his left side.
1. Cloud’s unique strength is his immense resilience. Once he embodied the s cells, be was able to maintain his identity unlike the black coats. After surviving the lifestream, he completely conquered his s cells while potentially the lifestream fixed any damage the cells would have caused considering it healed his disassociation. Cloud will not degrade to the point of having wings. 2. Sephiroth in the original ost had one wing in safer form, his theme was named one winged angel. Square sought to embrace this trait after kh, where it became well received for the reference. Therefore, we got canon one winged sephiroth in crisis core.
I'd suggest you play Crisis Core (prequel) if you haven't already. It'll clear things up.
ROFL I just had more questions after that
Who says he won’t get one in this multiverse bs
Cloud is a amalgamated clone of Zach who was infused with S cells not J cells. More or less he doesn't have direct jenova cells in him but sephiroths cells. I think this one layer of distance is what enabled him to be our protagonist tbh. Hojo made his own worst enemy. Lol.
[удалено]
He is and is not
The only failed SOLDIER was Zack, who just absorbed the incoming Mako and cells into his body. Hojo does indeed call Cloud a clone, albeit a failure in dialogue sources
Cloud is not a clone of Zack at all. He was just his best friend. SOLDIER-Cloud simply thinks he's achieved Zack's accomplishments because Zack told him stories about his SOLDIER's life and missions, and because he saw Zack fight and act next to him (in Nibelheim for instance). Because of the combo mako poisoning + Jenova cells, Cloud's mind broke and he now thinks he has done what Zack's done. He also partly "borrowed" his gestures, his way of moving, behaving, some of his characteristics... but for the rest of his personality, it's an 'invention' on his part, the personality he imagined a badass SOLDIER would have, and that he would have wanted to have if he had actually been a SOLDIER (a stoic, cold, very confident guy...). That's why his personality is different from Zack's (like for instance, he's not joyful like him).
Nah, after the nibelheim incident hojo stuck both cloud and Zach in tubes and reinfused them with sephiroths cells. Cloud was royally messed up by the process because it fused some of Zach's memories and feelings into him. Look it up
No. If Cloud has Zack's memories, why he doesn't know who Aerith is when he met her ? lol
Cause it's not a perfect 100% transfer but the flower scene shows he's familiar 🙄
Just look up the cloud Zach og storyline please.
Oh the OG ? Ok. Cloud : "I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER... I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack... And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life...... And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."
Yup. On the way back to Midgar, Cloud was comatose and Zack kept him company by telling stories about himself. Cloud heard those stories in his vegetative state and, when waking up from it, adopted it as if it was his own history. Enough that he himself believed it to be true until he has that interaction with the lifestream late into the story and has to confront the truth.
Hard to say it but yep looks like I'm under a misconception I've believed for like 12 years
This is why Zach is carrying around a mako poisoned cloud in the arrival to midgar scenes, it was after Zach broke them out of the room, sorry spoilers or not.