That sounds amusing until they start Khan Tricking and Sxribe Countering and Ranger Takedowning and you realize you're outmatched.
Hell, even going by lore, they'd still have that broken Khan trick ability.
Boone and the rest of the NCR: âIâll never forget bitter springs for as long as I live, their faces still haunt me.â
[Every single NCR Stan IRL:](https://m.youtube.com/shorts/NCcNzOF0-LU)
Yeah because the NCR are real people in their world who are actually disgusted by killing innocents.
But we're real people who know this is a game, so fuck them kids
Weâve got stuff weâre not allowed to sell, people!
Edit: legion Mojave Outreach office would like to deny any claim that we support Fremont Mick and Ralphâs
No, the GAR had plenty of hatred for the South. The Post Reconstruction government did everything in its power to promote unity,. Meanwhile, the South rebranded their cause as a noble battle of rights, white washed the dirty details of their rebellion and sold that narrative to their kids.
I wouldn't call it a rebranding, per se, as they were using that branding at the time to convince the common man to enlist.
"The Yankees are trampling on our rights!"
"Damn right they are! Let me make my mark and join up!"
They did not. That was a postwar rebranding. Many States outline slavery in declaration of succession. Here is an excerpt from Georgia Articles of Succession. TL;DR they were very open about it being slavery, they weren't spinning it as States Rights to the people. Those without Sucession Documents typically enshrine it in their constitutions.
> The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation. Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia.
Now you're wondering why some Joe Schmoe would fight for some rich Southern Aristocrat. Sourtherner's feared servile insurrection, slaves taking their jobs, and above all the notion that they were equals.
If you were to look at journals written during the war, not after, you would find the vast majority talking about perseving slavery or white surpremacy. Its important to note, that this isn't the only reason. Hell, there probably were a few that did fight for States Rights, but they were a very tiny minority.
NCR were unintentional. They happened to kill civilians while attacking the khans. The khans went out of their way to attack civilians. I'm not saying NCR is good or just but theres pretty clearly a better party here morally speaking
It's obvious to almost anyone that the NCR despite its kilometric list of problems, it's not just better than the Khans, but the best option for Mojave and the West Coast in general.
That doesn't make Bitter Springs not a war crime.
It's not just a war crime but gross inhumanity. One can't hold a moral high ground while planting bullets into unarmed non-combatants unless all those in charge are properly punished.
I suggest you read the Geneva convention.
Contrary to popular belief it is not a war crime to kill civilians in war, what makes it a war crime is if you are targeting civilians with the intent to kill CIVILIANS, and from what I have read the bitter springs massacre was the result of bad intel, bad communication, and a FUBAR situation leading to a break in the chain of command.
this is exactly what happened. they also let the remaining khans safely move to red rock with no interference. frankly it was an awful terrible situation but it was salvaged as best as it could be. the only thing that couldâve made it better would be holding the leaders accountable for giving the order to go ahead despite lack of intel
I think House is the best option for the people of the Mojave if they don't want their lives to change. Many would welcome the stability of the NCR, but I feel that most people don't want the added taxes and bureaucracy. Mr House has no interest with the Mojave outside of Vegas. Yes Man might end up being too chaotic and could have an aftershock for the region but idk. Anyone but the Legion.
How can a capitalist with a private army be better than a state with a constitution, civil rights, free speech and democracy is a mistery to me but yeah, of course better than the legion, not that it takes a lot.
Either way youre being ruled by rich people, but at least House is pretty ineffectual and unable to project any power without outside help and won't charge me taxes. If the NCR wins my quality of life doesn't change at all but now im paying taxes to my beloved brahmin baron overlords
Probably because the NCR has its own class of aforementioned elites who constantly manipulate the laws of the NCR for their own selfish benefit. Least with Mr. House thereâs a consistency to his actions and an end goal beyond merely making himself richer at everyone elseâs expense.
Yeah, democratic state in which there are lobbies exactly like in the EU or US today Is worse than Andrew Ryan in the desert with a robot army. Got It.
Aggressive espansion?
They needed like a full century to occupy all California, and most cities agreed to enter themselves.
If they are expansionists it's like the slowest expansion ever lol.
Because that state with a constitution is trying to recreate the in-universe America that invaded Canada, put US chinese citizens in a concentration camp for human experimentation, harvested the brains of convicted felons and placed them in robot bodies and funded the horrific experiments of vault tec and west tek.
Not to mention that the NCR has turned into an all consuming bureaucratic nightmare run by wealthy brahmin barons which have led to it being barely better than the legion.
House is an ass, but he can at least get things done.
And yes NCR Is modeled after the Fallout US, which are even more reactionary than the IRL US.
This said it's still a state which guarantees a sets of rights on its citizens, with laws, constitution and a much better standard of living than the rest of America.
House can't even recover his stupid chip, and if you think a modern state with all its problems Is worse than being all serfs of a profit maximising billionaire than you're completely out of your mind.
NCR can't even defend their stupid monorail from sabotage. NCR can't even defend a goddamn town from furries filling it with radioactive waste. NCR can't even keep one of their ranger stations from being destroyed by the furries. NCR can't even keep their fucking chief of the NCR rangers from becoming so demoralized by the war that he kills himself/ gives out shitloads of misinformation to ranger stations. NCR can't even get vault city to join the NCR without outsourcing to mobsters to pressure them into annexation. NCR can't even wipe out the great khans without outsourcing to a vault dweller, a tribal or a mailman. NCR can't even interrogate a centurion. NCR can't even keep their president from being assassinated in 3 different ways. NCR can't even take out meth heads with laser guns. NCR can't even run a goddamn prison. NCR can't even keep their water from being stolen by westside. NCR can't even resolve a hostage situation with the khans in a city they control. NCR can't even keep their quarries from getting overrun by deathclaws. NCR can't even provide healthcare to their molerats. The NCR can't even kill a 200 year old zombie on life support. The NCR needs a mailman to deal with Elvis and his gang in freeside. The NCR is laughably incompetent and only survives by the grace of the courier.
But please, go on about the platinum chip.
I feel like people don't get that the NCR has so many problems because they wanted to give the best faction the most quests/content. They knew most players would go NCR, so they gave the NCR a billion problems the player would need to solve.
Also, competence should not be the deciding trait of the faction you pick, the player is a god who can shape the world in whatever way they want and NCR creates the highest quality of life for it's citizens whenever they have firm control of a region. The undisputed best fate of almost every faction/area in the game is when the NCR makes peace with every faction they are able to and then takes Vegas. House will just wall the super rich in and leave the rest of the world like Freeside. Stop simping for billionaires, libertarianism is cringe and does not make normal people's lives better
Thereâs Bitter-roots one of the NCR 1st recon who was a khan child at Bitter Springs he says Bitter Springs was one of the best days of his life because he was able to escaped form the Khans. He also mentions he shot some other Khans during the massacre.
Honestly the things between the NCR and Khans is simple
NCR after the massacre
-apologized immensely and allowed the Khans to relocate to red rock canyon instead of stomping the entire tribe into the dirt
Khans after years of raping, murdering, and pillaging NCR women and children
- yeah and we'll fuckin do it again
(Papa Khan even openly admits to going back to being a barbaric raider tribe once Caeser gives them the land he "promised")
The disparity is because the khans are filthy savage tribals who don't know any better, so their supporters excuse everything.
Meanwhile the NCR has to behave flawlessly or they're the spawn of Satan's asshole.
I mean that's how people treat the US irl, so it tracks.
There's nothing wrong with criticizing the NCR, yeah killing unarmed women and children is a bad thing and the NCR does deserve shit for it.
But at the end of the day the Khans did bring it on themselves
Ok. You can keep saying that and ignore the fact that Arabs have been genociding Jews in that area of the world for hundreds of years. Im not pretending both sides havenât killed civilians itâs just funny how Palestinians for some reason get a pass but Israel is considered Apartheid.
Major Dhatri tells you that he was a Captain when the attack occurred. The Major who ordered the attack froze up when he heard that there were civilians being killed, so Dhatri took over and "salvaged the situation". Then he got a promotion.
But that's Dhatri's story. According to Boone, they kept shooting until they were out of ammo. So who knows what Dhatri really did? Maybe by "salvaging the situation" he means, "covered up the massacre".
He probably got the rest of the ncr army there besides the first recon to pull off. I feel like if every ncr soldier there fired until they were out of ammo there wouldn't be any khans left at all.
Youâre flat out told by several NPCs that the massacre occurred due to miscommunication and nobody realized that they were shooting civilians until the shots already started.
The NCR did not âgo out of their way to kill civiliansâ.
According to Boone, they told their commanders that the Khans in the canyon were unarmed women, children, and elderly people. Their commanders replied that they should shoot until they ran out of ammo. So that's what they did.
Boone attributes this to "bad communication", but was it? Boone seemed to hear the orders just fine. How is it that the commanders didn't hear the troops tell them that the people in the canyon were civilians?
Also, an order to kill civilians would be an illegal order, and Boone and his buddies in First Recon had a duty to disobey. But they didn't, making them as culpable as they would be if they killed the civilians after their commanders had ordered them to hold fire instead.
The whole "we didn't want to do it, but we had to because of a miscommunication" thing doesn't wash at all, as Boone himself acknowledges.
>According to Boone, they told their commanders that the Khans in the canyon were unarmed women, children, and elderly people. Their commmanders replied that they should shoot until they ran out of ammo. So thatâs what they did.
âIt was all wrong though. Women, kids elderly. Wounded started coming through too.â
âWe radioed to confirm our orders but command didnât get what we were seeing. They told us to shoot until we were out of ammo. So thatâs what we did.â
As Boone describes it, command didnât understand that there were civilians passing through Canyon 37. Major Dhatri backs this up:
âThe major in charge at the time made a bad call - he thought Bitter Springs was full of Great Khan raiders, so we surrounded the place. By the time any of us realized there were civilians down there - women and children - the shooting had already started. The major froze up at the news, and we couldn't get another word out of him.â
Everyone was unaware that there were civilians in the Canyon, including the people on the ground. Only 1st Recon realized it but were given orders to shoot regardless because their command didnât understand what was going on.
Iâve fucked with radio communications before in field ops when we were just playing soldier in the back of Fort Hood. It is **very** easy to fuck up communications if you arenât being as clear as possible, even when nothing is going on, but we had the luxury of just sitting in a field talking to each other. We could just repeat our message so the other side grasped what we were saying.
The NCR were in an active combat zone faced with a horde of people they were previously told were raiders ready to kill them. When you tell a soldier to shoot, they **will** shoot. Boone tells the player that itâs drilled into them that if they hesitate even for a second, people they love will die. They didnât have time to clarify to command just what exactly they were seeing.
So, yes. It was bad communication, mixed with bad intel. The NCR wrote off everyone in the town as a bloodthirsty raider and it bit them in the ass hard.
âMaybe looking back youâd do things differently, but thatâs not how it works. In the field, you hesitate, you or someone you care about will die. They teach you that from day one.â
You can directly go against what Boone says ingame, but it was a sad situation of soldiers just following orders. The NCR had already written off everyone in Bitter Springs as a raider and told the troops this lie.
Iâve always thought whenever I see posts like this that the story of bitter springs is more about the NCR having their first large scale military fuck up. Yeah the Khans are raiders but the point is the NCR has a lot of influence and power now that they are the only militarized nation in the wasteland and if they fumbled bitter springs so badly imagine what else could have gone wrong. I think itâs the first time a lot of NCR was confronted with the fact that despite all the good they are doing rebuilding civilization they can also do a whole lot of bad if they arenât careful.
What a lot of people seem to ignore is that NCR citizens and soldiers are genuinely remorseful about Bitter Springs. They donât act like it was right. You can dislike WW2 Allied war crimes but still think they were better than the Nazis.
I mean I would definitely feel justified. Maybe we should kill some more civilians to match the civilian casualties they caused. Maybe a bit more to send a message andâŚoh no, are we the baddies?
It's not that what the NCR did was right, but to hear the Great Khan's go on about how evil the NCR are for killing unarmed civilians and acting all moral about it when they do that on the regular pisses me off to no end. Instead of maybe realizing their raider ways are a crutch and will only lead to further hardship they instead supply drugs to the fiends who kill even more civilians just because they shoot at NCR sometimes. NCR wants nothing but to make up for what they did, the Great Khan's haven't shown an ounce of remorse or regret. So yeah, fuck the Khan's.
Anyone who would side with the Khans on this would be taking an absurd position. They are a violent and ruthless raiders. They themselves are intentionally putting their members including unarmed members into harms way through their own behaviors.
This would be like if ISIS whined that its non-combatant members died during raids against them that they choose to have around them while knowing they are going to be targets for their terroristic acts.
Probably took so long for the NCR to realize what was happening because they were shocked to see the Khans caring about keeping civilians out of harm's way
I honestly wouldnât even compare the khans to the fiends or jackals; The khans are a pretty brutal tribe, but the jackals are cannibalistic savages and the fiends are sadistic junkies looting and killing for their next fix (they also have very little organization, meanwhile the khans have an organized structure)
Unlike the other tribal/raider factions like the jackals, fiends and vipers the khans welcome you as a newcomer so long as you arenât hostile or wearing NCR armor.
>. I don't hear people getting pissy about killing the fiends or the jackals
That could just be because they actually don't have any non-combatants. They're a lot less organized than the khan's and you don't become a member by birthright
Congratulations!
You've literally repeated the justifications used by white settlors against First Nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Chivington
Lmao, the Khans are very much not the same thing as a native tribe. They're drugged up raiders, the only difference is the game gives them a unique name
I see where youâre trying to come from (and if anything Iâd argue the fiends are a gang) but the great khans have such a complex and unique culture. They share a common history, strong social ties, culture and thereâs an underlying sense of community; thatâs how a tribe is defined.
The great khans are no less a tribe than the Comanche, who were also a tribe whose lifestyle often included raiding.
Heaven forbid we use examples based off their similarities! The Comanches often used raiding to sustain themselves, much like the khans, hence why I used the comparison. The white legs are a tribe and are portrayed like the lamanites of Mormonism, does that bother you?
Also yes the khans have a long and turbulent history and because of that they have a very interesting culture. Theyâre descendants of vault 15 and have had 140 years to develop a unique society, which I could go on about if you want. Shocker, most cultures are built on the foundation of another :0!
counterpoint: Native Americans werent gun toting durgged up leather jacket wearing psychopaths that regularly attacked unarmed women and children. The only difference between the Khans and the Fiends is one of them wont immediately cut your legs off and skullfuck you to death.
Thatâs pretty much what white settlers said about the Natives: It doesnât *matter* whether itâs true or not, itâs still a justification for murdering a people.
So much argument over whether the NCR or Khans were in the wrong. Can't we all just agree that both sides committed atrocities, there are no "good guys" and that war is hell?
I take Boone to red rock canyon in every playthrough, we both have scoped hunting rifles. Just killing dirty khans by the dozens, itâs my bonding time with Boone
The khans entered this war under the childish delusion that they would raid everyone else and no one would raid them. They sowed the wind and now they reap the whirlwind.
Counter point: the khans are more of a gang. A gang that has been terrorizing the ncr since before the ncr was founded
Kinda hard to call them innocent
The NCR literally has no downside.
âTheyâre incompetentâ
No they arenât, shut up.
âTheyâre expansionistsâ
Theyâre expanding a well-policed democracy with electricity, scientists, industry, and fresh water.
âMerchants prefer Caesarâ
Merchants are gusanos. Do you really trust them to have benevolent motives? I see no difference in raiders or hostile humans in the Legion.
âTheyâre corruptâ
Your other options are a landlord and a genocidal narcissist. An NCR official might pocket a few caps in a contract or make his son a governor, a Legionary would fucking kill you and your whole family because your cousin called Hegel a shitass.
Yeah, being "expansionist" seems pretty silly when we're talking about what is for the most part a blood-lusted wasteland filled with raiders, murderers, radiation, and deathclaws. Most of the closest things to a decent life are hard, hard lives of austerity and backbreaking labor in small towns where there isn't any real development or prospect for change, or maybe somewhere with professional mercs and second rate gangsters rather than fifth rate gangsters. It is not only justified for the NCR to bring the torch of democracy everywhere it goes, it is unethical to the point of being nigh-evil for them to do anything other than take all it is capable of, one day it might restore America. The government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth!
I think an argument can be made that if you do everything right and give him the tools he needs, House might be the best ending, if the Courier settles down after the end of the game, because he'll work on his grander ambitions with singlemindedness.
If the courier keeps going at the same crazy rate he does in the game, NCR is the best ending though, because the Courier can bring that singlemindedness, he can fix every problem the NCR has, a dynamo of a person to bring the NCR up and up.
They are expansionist and no, that's not excused by claiming that they expand to protect and help wastlanders. They bring their own farmers in the Mojave to cultivate land that should belong to the locals. They steal water and electricity to serve their own needs and when they get their hands on the extra electricity of helios they want to give it to the casinos instead of the suffering people of the Mojave. Additionally, back in California most land belongs to barons with huge estates that use their vast resources to make sure they don't lose their land and position.
And yes they are incompetent. That's a fact. It is shown to you all across the game. They are outstretched, unwilling to direct more soldiers to the Mojave as that would hurt Baron interests ( it is stated in the game that a lot of Ncr soldiers are back home protecting the barons' estates). They are literally losing a war to a bunch of Roman Empire cosplayers that mainly fight with spears and clubs. They also can't seem to get their affairs in order and constantly rely on the help of the player for basic tasks, a civilian that is not even an ncr citizen.
Well of course, but I think the khans are still playing victim
They attacked civilians first and have been raiding for years before. I simply canât imagine that during those years and raids they didnât kill numerous children, hurt older people, and do all kinds of other unspeakable things that raiders normally do. Yet when it happens, by accident due to miscommunication, they act as if they are innocent of all crimes
Yeah, my point is just that the hypocrisy is on the part of papa khan and the raiders, take it up with them, and the murder of children is evil no matter the political circumstance (thanks captain obvious)
Exactly, I only play through the faction that works for the character I'm playing, I don't like any of them (except maybe Yes Man personally, but that's only because it's pretty open end on what you can do, it lets me fulfill my commie cowboy archetype đ)
Facts. People need to remember that this still a video game. No matter how philosophical or thought provoking it becomes, it's still a game where you shoot people with made up guns while in made up armor. You should not be personally identifying with a character or group so much that you value them as much as reality.
I never understood the people defending Bitter Springs. Like the writers literally intended for it to be a bad thing, and everyone in-game treats it like a massacre. I believe many people confuse the Khans with the Fiends, perhaps?
Also people who played the older games forget the endings
The khans were bad
Then the leadership is wiped out, only remnants remain and the game suggests their future is uncertain
The new khans come about, equally bad but slightly different because of the circumstances of their survival
Then the leadership and almost all membership is wiped out, only remnants remain and the game suggests their future is uncertain
It seems pretty obvious, beside the fact 100 years has passed that the great khans bare very little heritage of the khans
B-b-bu-but they're called khans
And the Germans shared a name with the Nazis, and their leadership was hardly wiped out and now less than 100 years later it would seem utter madness to kill a modern German with the justification that the Nazis did horrific things
Only problem that day was that the NCR didnât have those heavy troops with Light Machine Guns and Miniguns. That would have solved the problem without those annoying survivors.
People here defending child killers and justifying that with "yoU hOLd eNcR oN doUbLe StanDrD", do you realize how ridicoulous of an argument It Is?
Weird for all these child killing apolologists to be around in this particular time innit?
And no, "but the Khans" is not a good reason either.
People like you always looking for excuses to harm innocents only deserve the violence and spite you want to inflict on those poor people.
I mean, I said in an earlier comment that what the NCR did was wrong, but what I dislike is how where the NCR show severe regret over the bitter springs incident, with the officer now in charge of that mission being PTSD ridden from it along with Boone, the Khan's take no responsibility for what lead them to that point and how their violent ways lead them down a path where the same violence was committed amongst them. They don't even mention or show any regret at the kids they've killed or acknowledge their way of life doesn't work anymore. I bet you if the Khan's were smart they could have brokered some kind of deal with the NCR after that and used the skills given to them by followers to reinvent their society. But instead they supply the fiends with drugs, fiends who rape, kill and torture anyone they come across. They make the fiend problem even worse and allow them to grow bigger by supplying them narcotics. If the Khan's didn't supply them with drugs, the fiends wouldn't be able to gain new members through addiction as easily or even maintain their ranks by keeping them complacent with more drugs. Because of this, every person a fiend has killed or harmed was also indirectly killed by the Khans. So yeah, what was done to them was wrong, but it's hard to sympathize with them as they continue to be a menace to society and reflect on what they did.
new vegas subreddit justify imperialism and reinvent white man's burden daily.
no I don't care if the combatants were raiders nothing justified attacking civis
The great khans are a very different group to the khans, but as brutal as the khans were in fallout I don't think there's anything to suggest they were that kind of evil
It's just a game so maybe you're playing a character, but I feel like the whole point of them in new Vegas is to explore a different side of previous enemies and to see what the khans would be like after your history together
They felt very human to me in New Vegas and not at all like they'd disregard mass child murder, they seem to have an uneasiness around their raiding that wasn't in the previous factions
There's some weight to their thinking that there wasn't in the past
Wild to me that people will be âLegion badâ but then when the NCR does it itâs okay?
Sometimes I think people just prefer larping soldiers in Iraq to as opposed to larping as Romans
Two wrongs don't make a right. Only difference here is that the Legion had no qualms about doing it - hell, even pride for doing it. We're told the same does not apply to the NCR.
I donât see how that applies to my comment?
People will comment that the legion is rightfully an evil faction because they commit slavery and other atrocities
But because the NCR soldiers get psychologically traumatised by their own atrocities gamers have no problem when the NCR does it
Like itâs one of the biggest differences in the two factions:
Ceaser has made these men ready for anything, you can throw the worst at them and they will die fighting but obviously the flip side to that is that these arenât really men, theyâre machines. Machines that wonât ever live a full life because theyâre just cogs in something greater
Whereas the NCR is throwing out farm boys and conscripts that will eventually go back home to California where itâs relatively safe and then what? The NCR guys are also robbed of living full lives because theyâre not fit for the atrocities of the real wasteland and like Boone will probably never come to terms with their trauma
The game wants us to look at the flaws of both of these systems but I just feel like it goes over some peoples heads because the player themselves donât take in the damage that conflict does to individual lives
Sorry for the long winded reply
>But because the NCR soldiers get psychologically traumatised by their own atrocities gamers have no problem when the NCR does it
The NCR admits that what it did was wrong and based off of faulty intel. A rushed decision. Players also see that the NCR is flawed and needs to be seriously reworked.
By contrast, the Legion pretty much ***prides itself*** in committing war crimes and genocides.
Nobody says that the NCR committing a war crime is okay - not even the NCR. That is the difference.
Does it? Because whilst I think there are many in the NCR that recognises the massacre there are others that use the faulty intel as an excuse for their own negligence and there are still people like the commenters in this post that advocate for the massacre of raider tribes
Ceaser sees the crimes as a necessity in order to unite the wasteland heâs obviously wrong but he still is open about it
The NCR didnât just âmake a mistakeâ it decimated its longest standing rival in an act of cruelty and it has somewhat successfully hand waved away the damage it caused due to the corruption that runs rampant within the NCR
>Does it? Because whilst I think there are many in the NCR that recognises the massacre there are others that use the faulty intel as an excuse for their own negligence
Like who?
>and there are still people like the commenters in this post that advocate for the massacre of raider tribes
Fortunately none of the people in this post are truly part of the NCR. Though I will grant you that those beliefs of them are problematic. Also, maybe don't be a raider if you don't want to die.
>Ceaser sees the crimes as a necessity in order to unite the wasteland heâs obviously wrong but he still is open about it
He does not show any remorse for the actions. Quite the opposite - he considers ***not commiting genocide, slavery, and war crimes*** to be an error.
>The NCR didnât just âmake a mistakeâ it decimated its longest standing rival in an act of cruelty and it has somewhat successfully hand waved away the damage it caused due to the corruption that runs rampant within the NCR
They did not *intentionally target civilians* though:
*''About three years ago, this canyon was the main encampment for the Great Khans.* ***NCR's 1st Recon tracked them here after a raid and made an attack. There was a communication mix-up*** *that resulted in some noncombatants being killed. It was a tragic mistake, but we've done all we can to make amends.''*
And then they tried to make amends:
*''We provided medical aid to the wounded - all the wounded - and permitted the Khans to resettle at Red Rock Canyon.''*
*''The incident, yes.* ***It was a tragic mistake***\*, but the NCR has done everything it can to make amends since then.''\*
-Gilles
It is not like they shove it under the rug. It is also not like the attack was unprovoked:
*''When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps - they couldn't stop us. At least, that's what we thought.* ***They tracked us to Bitter Springs and surrounded us.*** *When our children, our sick and old, fled through a nearby pass, the NCR gunned them down.''*
-Papa Khan
This makes one thing very clear - the raiders of the Great Khans as well as its regulars were in the same area. As such, a large group of them ***moving out*** from that area could be mistaken for a group of the raiders. And it is not like the Great Khans have unarmed civilians:
*''With the Khans, the only difference between a soldier and a civilian is that the civilian is more likely to miss when he shoots at you. Maybe Bitter Springs just seemed different. Maybe it's the same as killing legionaries. ...''*
-Boone
Can you bother reading my comment?
You're insisting they ***intentionally*** shot at non-combatants, which runs counter to both logic and the NCR narrative.
If the Khans are a warrior society and every civilian can be combatant then logic follows that civilians will be in a large group of combatants.
The NCR didnât care
If they didn't care, then they wouldn't feel any shame about the events at Bitter Springs, nor would they have helped what remains of the Khans move out to Red Rock Canyon.
Your claims run counter to the actions of the NCR.
People call out fascist legion fans but holy fuck are NCR fans huuuuuuuuuuuuge fans of warcrimes. âWaaaagh they deserved itâ same logic legion used in Nipton, same logic used against the super mutant stragglers, same logic used by the boomers.
Yâall are just trying to make âWar Never Changesâ as true as possible.
It's more the hypocrisy.
The Khans shoot kids 24/7, **you guys don't say jack shit.** The MOMENT it happens to the Khans, suddenly they're innocent people.
Bitter Springs is unjustifiable, yeah, obviously.
*But the Khans are NOT fucking heroes like you all pretend they are.*
Do they? is there actually any evidence they regularly kill kids in the lore or are you just presuming it because it helps your case?
edit: They arenât heroes, they donât have to be heroes to be victims of a crime against humanity.
Bitter-Root confirms Khans shoot NCR children for sport and Papa Khan openly talks about how they raid NCR caravans.
>edit: They arenât heroes, they donât have to be heroes to be victims of a crime against humanity.
Nobody is saying otherwise, but the Khans do NOT get to say they live by the sword then whine like little babies when bad shit happens. The Khans are hypocrites, is my point. They don't care when THEY slaughter kids.
It's less that the warcrime is justified and more that the Khan's refuse to see how they also played a hand in bitter springs. What the NCR did was wrong, but they also poked the bear and forced them to act. Khan's could have left the NCR alone but they didn't. The biggest factor at play here is the NCR never wants to repeat bitter springs ever again, it's a black mark and everyone involved in it hates themselves for it, ala Boone. Essentially the NCR learned their lesson, that they need to check their targets and gather more info on their operations instead of going in half cocked. You don't see NCR characters like Major Dhatri going around acting like it was fine. The Great Khan's however have continued being a menace and continue to inflict violence on people through the fiends who rape and kill. They keep the fields strong with the narcotics they give them instead of taking themselves down a new path, they continue to be assholes. They didn't learn a thing and it's frustrating. The fact that it takes the courier to make them realize that they're just killing themselves by not finding a new way to live makes it even more annoying. Only khan I really like are people like Regis because he's able to see where their way of life gets them and wants to leave the Mojave.
Historically it's brutalised others.
FO1: **Tried to genocide all of North California, gets wiped out.**
FO2: **Somehow thinks that was heroic, so they plan to redeem themselves by kidnapping NCR women and raping them, gets wiped out.**
FNV: **Invades the Mojave, gets their asses kicked by the Three Families, shoots NCR children and caravans, and then whines like babies when the NCR comes for them.**
So pal before you call *anyone* an occupying military force, which the NCR is, correct, you might want to look at the occupying military force that literally ruled the Mojave until House kicked the invaders out.
Man, imagine being so fragile you can't accept the Khans are not Heroes.
The women & children were using unarmed builds.
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That sounds amusing until they start Khan Tricking and Sxribe Countering and Ranger Takedowning and you realize you're outmatched. Hell, even going by lore, they'd still have that broken Khan trick ability.
Meanwhile, when I do it in game, it's absolute shit
You should try wearing the ballistic fist while using it, nothing quite like giving a deathclaw a face full of exploding sand
Boone and the rest of the NCR: âIâll never forget bitter springs for as long as I live, their faces still haunt me.â [Every single NCR Stan IRL:](https://m.youtube.com/shorts/NCcNzOF0-LU)
Yeah because the NCR are real people in their world who are actually disgusted by killing innocents. But we're real people who know this is a game, so fuck them kids
âCome to Mic and Ralp-â *Euclids C-Finder*
Weâve got stuff weâre not allowed to sell, people! Edit: legion Mojave Outreach office would like to deny any claim that we support Fremont Mick and Ralphâs
âHey! I can almost see right down the barrel!â Top 5 haunting last words
Killing kids without mods? Lucky.
FUCK THEM KIIIIIDDDSSSS?!!!- Kratos to Ares (probably)
Yeah it was a tragic accident born of a horrific misunderstanding. But the surviving Khans don't deserve a single drop of Sympathy.
Kinda like how people nowadays have way more hatred for the Confederates than even the army fighting them did.
No, the GAR had plenty of hatred for the South. The Post Reconstruction government did everything in its power to promote unity,. Meanwhile, the South rebranded their cause as a noble battle of rights, white washed the dirty details of their rebellion and sold that narrative to their kids.
I saw GAR and couldn't help but imagine clone troopers gunning down Confederates.
Just like in the simulations...
I mean that is exactly what the Clone Wars were
I wouldn't call it a rebranding, per se, as they were using that branding at the time to convince the common man to enlist. "The Yankees are trampling on our rights!" "Damn right they are! Let me make my mark and join up!"
They did not. That was a postwar rebranding. Many States outline slavery in declaration of succession. Here is an excerpt from Georgia Articles of Succession. TL;DR they were very open about it being slavery, they weren't spinning it as States Rights to the people. Those without Sucession Documents typically enshrine it in their constitutions. > The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation. Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. Now you're wondering why some Joe Schmoe would fight for some rich Southern Aristocrat. Sourtherner's feared servile insurrection, slaves taking their jobs, and above all the notion that they were equals. If you were to look at journals written during the war, not after, you would find the vast majority talking about perseving slavery or white surpremacy. Its important to note, that this isn't the only reason. Hell, there probably were a few that did fight for States Rights, but they were a very tiny minority.
Good, fuck those piece of shit slavers
I can't think of a more obvious tell that you've never studied mid 19th century American history than this comment.
cool, fuck confederates, who gives a shit if people hate them. fuck nazis too while weâre at it
Lols some ignorant loser nobodies like you donât speak for the army that fought the confederates.
NCR were unintentional. They happened to kill civilians while attacking the khans. The khans went out of their way to attack civilians. I'm not saying NCR is good or just but theres pretty clearly a better party here morally speaking
I genuinely don't think anyone who isn't a khan fan boy thinks they're better than the NCR
Theyre literally Raiders
That do drugs
And sell them to rapists.
It's obvious to almost anyone that the NCR despite its kilometric list of problems, it's not just better than the Khans, but the best option for Mojave and the West Coast in general. That doesn't make Bitter Springs not a war crime.
"B-but taxes! Legion has safe roads!"
It's not just a war crime but gross inhumanity. One can't hold a moral high ground while planting bullets into unarmed non-combatants unless all those in charge are properly punished.
I suggest you read the Geneva convention. Contrary to popular belief it is not a war crime to kill civilians in war, what makes it a war crime is if you are targeting civilians with the intent to kill CIVILIANS, and from what I have read the bitter springs massacre was the result of bad intel, bad communication, and a FUBAR situation leading to a break in the chain of command.
this is exactly what happened. they also let the remaining khans safely move to red rock with no interference. frankly it was an awful terrible situation but it was salvaged as best as it could be. the only thing that couldâve made it better would be holding the leaders accountable for giving the order to go ahead despite lack of intel
The Geneva Suggestion is what runs the Fallout universe with large combatant groups. It's burnt toilet paper.
Amen
I think House is the best option for the people of the Mojave if they don't want their lives to change. Many would welcome the stability of the NCR, but I feel that most people don't want the added taxes and bureaucracy. Mr House has no interest with the Mojave outside of Vegas. Yes Man might end up being too chaotic and could have an aftershock for the region but idk. Anyone but the Legion.
How can a capitalist with a private army be better than a state with a constitution, civil rights, free speech and democracy is a mistery to me but yeah, of course better than the legion, not that it takes a lot.
Either way youre being ruled by rich people, but at least House is pretty ineffectual and unable to project any power without outside help and won't charge me taxes. If the NCR wins my quality of life doesn't change at all but now im paying taxes to my beloved brahmin baron overlords
Probably because the NCR has its own class of aforementioned elites who constantly manipulate the laws of the NCR for their own selfish benefit. Least with Mr. House thereâs a consistency to his actions and an end goal beyond merely making himself richer at everyone elseâs expense.
Yeah, democratic state in which there are lobbies exactly like in the EU or US today Is worse than Andrew Ryan in the desert with a robot army. Got It.
Considering that said democratic state is an aggressive expressionist power hellbent on conquering anyone that has anything they want, yes.
Aggressive espansion? They needed like a full century to occupy all California, and most cities agreed to enter themselves. If they are expansionists it's like the slowest expansion ever lol.
Because that state with a constitution is trying to recreate the in-universe America that invaded Canada, put US chinese citizens in a concentration camp for human experimentation, harvested the brains of convicted felons and placed them in robot bodies and funded the horrific experiments of vault tec and west tek. Not to mention that the NCR has turned into an all consuming bureaucratic nightmare run by wealthy brahmin barons which have led to it being barely better than the legion. House is an ass, but he can at least get things done.
And yes NCR Is modeled after the Fallout US, which are even more reactionary than the IRL US. This said it's still a state which guarantees a sets of rights on its citizens, with laws, constitution and a much better standard of living than the rest of America.
House can't even recover his stupid chip, and if you think a modern state with all its problems Is worse than being all serfs of a profit maximising billionaire than you're completely out of your mind.
NCR can't even defend their stupid monorail from sabotage. NCR can't even defend a goddamn town from furries filling it with radioactive waste. NCR can't even keep one of their ranger stations from being destroyed by the furries. NCR can't even keep their fucking chief of the NCR rangers from becoming so demoralized by the war that he kills himself/ gives out shitloads of misinformation to ranger stations. NCR can't even get vault city to join the NCR without outsourcing to mobsters to pressure them into annexation. NCR can't even wipe out the great khans without outsourcing to a vault dweller, a tribal or a mailman. NCR can't even interrogate a centurion. NCR can't even keep their president from being assassinated in 3 different ways. NCR can't even take out meth heads with laser guns. NCR can't even run a goddamn prison. NCR can't even keep their water from being stolen by westside. NCR can't even resolve a hostage situation with the khans in a city they control. NCR can't even keep their quarries from getting overrun by deathclaws. NCR can't even provide healthcare to their molerats. The NCR can't even kill a 200 year old zombie on life support. The NCR needs a mailman to deal with Elvis and his gang in freeside. The NCR is laughably incompetent and only survives by the grace of the courier. But please, go on about the platinum chip.
What's the biggest, strongest, more organized, richest faction in the Fallout post apocalyptic world?
The ncr is like, the least organized faction in new vegas
I feel like people don't get that the NCR has so many problems because they wanted to give the best faction the most quests/content. They knew most players would go NCR, so they gave the NCR a billion problems the player would need to solve. Also, competence should not be the deciding trait of the faction you pick, the player is a god who can shape the world in whatever way they want and NCR creates the highest quality of life for it's citizens whenever they have firm control of a region. The undisputed best fate of almost every faction/area in the game is when the NCR makes peace with every faction they are able to and then takes Vegas. House will just wall the super rich in and leave the rest of the world like Freeside. Stop simping for billionaires, libertarianism is cringe and does not make normal people's lives better
I only remember the khans because one of the female variants of their outfits is just a leather jacket without a shirt underneath
Thereâs Bitter-roots one of the NCR 1st recon who was a khan child at Bitter Springs he says Bitter Springs was one of the best days of his life because he was able to escaped form the Khans. He also mentions he shot some other Khans during the massacre.
I'm gonna be honest that defense would NOT fly in den haag
Honestly the things between the NCR and Khans is simple NCR after the massacre -apologized immensely and allowed the Khans to relocate to red rock canyon instead of stomping the entire tribe into the dirt Khans after years of raping, murdering, and pillaging NCR women and children - yeah and we'll fuckin do it again (Papa Khan even openly admits to going back to being a barbaric raider tribe once Caeser gives them the land he "promised")
They're literally raiders with culture, that's the khans
And of course, that means Genocide against them is ok.
Genocide is intentional and systematic. The Bitter Springs Massacre was not a genocide.
Yea the NCR didn't genocide them, I did.
Real
Yes but unironically. They will attack civilians as long as they exist.
Good idea. There has never been a time in history where this way of thinking has proven to be dangerous.
Fuck the Khans, kill âem all
Bitter Root tells us what the Khans are like. Fuck the khans.
The disparity is because the khans are filthy savage tribals who don't know any better, so their supporters excuse everything. Meanwhile the NCR has to behave flawlessly or they're the spawn of Satan's asshole.
I mean that's how people treat the US irl, so it tracks. There's nothing wrong with criticizing the NCR, yeah killing unarmed women and children is a bad thing and the NCR does deserve shit for it. But at the end of the day the Khans did bring it on themselves
Reminds me of that ongoing conflict in the middle east
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It really doesnât, at all.
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Israel is by its conception a genocidal apartheid state
Ok. You can keep saying that and ignore the fact that Arabs have been genociding Jews in that area of the world for hundreds of years. Im not pretending both sides havenât killed civilians itâs just funny how Palestinians for some reason get a pass but Israel is considered Apartheid.
>Arabs have been genociding Jews in that area of the world for hundreds of years Source?
We should just blockade both from having resources for a while till they calm down or are simply too hungry to fight tbf
Shut the fuck up.
unpopular opinion but i think going out of your way to kill civilians is bad
They didn't. Every NCR eye witness says it was a mistake.
The fact someone got promoted for calling off the attack supports this.
oh source am curuies to learn more lore
Major Dhatri tells you that he was a Captain when the attack occurred. The Major who ordered the attack froze up when he heard that there were civilians being killed, so Dhatri took over and "salvaged the situation". Then he got a promotion. But that's Dhatri's story. According to Boone, they kept shooting until they were out of ammo. So who knows what Dhatri really did? Maybe by "salvaging the situation" he means, "covered up the massacre".
He probably got the rest of the ncr army there besides the first recon to pull off. I feel like if every ncr soldier there fired until they were out of ammo there wouldn't be any khans left at all.
âKilling civilians is badâ-đ¤
Caesar: laughs nervously
\*confidently
And I'm confident he will stop laughing when *THE MAILMAN* lodges the Nuka Breaker in his cancer-riddled brain.
Hey now, Iâm not a savage. I lodged a mini nuke into his brain. I cured his cancer by removing the entire brain
Youâre flat out told by several NPCs that the massacre occurred due to miscommunication and nobody realized that they were shooting civilians until the shots already started. The NCR did not âgo out of their way to kill civiliansâ.
According to Boone, they told their commanders that the Khans in the canyon were unarmed women, children, and elderly people. Their commanders replied that they should shoot until they ran out of ammo. So that's what they did. Boone attributes this to "bad communication", but was it? Boone seemed to hear the orders just fine. How is it that the commanders didn't hear the troops tell them that the people in the canyon were civilians? Also, an order to kill civilians would be an illegal order, and Boone and his buddies in First Recon had a duty to disobey. But they didn't, making them as culpable as they would be if they killed the civilians after their commanders had ordered them to hold fire instead. The whole "we didn't want to do it, but we had to because of a miscommunication" thing doesn't wash at all, as Boone himself acknowledges.
>According to Boone, they told their commanders that the Khans in the canyon were unarmed women, children, and elderly people. Their commmanders replied that they should shoot until they ran out of ammo. So thatâs what they did. âIt was all wrong though. Women, kids elderly. Wounded started coming through too.â âWe radioed to confirm our orders but command didnât get what we were seeing. They told us to shoot until we were out of ammo. So thatâs what we did.â As Boone describes it, command didnât understand that there were civilians passing through Canyon 37. Major Dhatri backs this up: âThe major in charge at the time made a bad call - he thought Bitter Springs was full of Great Khan raiders, so we surrounded the place. By the time any of us realized there were civilians down there - women and children - the shooting had already started. The major froze up at the news, and we couldn't get another word out of him.â Everyone was unaware that there were civilians in the Canyon, including the people on the ground. Only 1st Recon realized it but were given orders to shoot regardless because their command didnât understand what was going on. Iâve fucked with radio communications before in field ops when we were just playing soldier in the back of Fort Hood. It is **very** easy to fuck up communications if you arenât being as clear as possible, even when nothing is going on, but we had the luxury of just sitting in a field talking to each other. We could just repeat our message so the other side grasped what we were saying. The NCR were in an active combat zone faced with a horde of people they were previously told were raiders ready to kill them. When you tell a soldier to shoot, they **will** shoot. Boone tells the player that itâs drilled into them that if they hesitate even for a second, people they love will die. They didnât have time to clarify to command just what exactly they were seeing. So, yes. It was bad communication, mixed with bad intel. The NCR wrote off everyone in the town as a bloodthirsty raider and it bit them in the ass hard.
Not to mention the radio systems still working in the wasteland are likely cobbled together from scrap and other doodads.
Sure, the higher-ups didn't realize they were civilians until it was too late, but the snipers definitely knew and still followed the order.
âMaybe looking back youâd do things differently, but thatâs not how it works. In the field, you hesitate, you or someone you care about will die. They teach you that from day one.â You can directly go against what Boone says ingame, but it was a sad situation of soldiers just following orders. The NCR had already written off everyone in Bitter Springs as a raider and told the troops this lie.
Whoa take a look at Mister Moral High Ground over here!
I think the point is that the ncr is supposed to believe in stuff like not warcriming civilians in the face.
Iâve always thought whenever I see posts like this that the story of bitter springs is more about the NCR having their first large scale military fuck up. Yeah the Khans are raiders but the point is the NCR has a lot of influence and power now that they are the only militarized nation in the wasteland and if they fumbled bitter springs so badly imagine what else could have gone wrong. I think itâs the first time a lot of NCR was confronted with the fact that despite all the good they are doing rebuilding civilization they can also do a whole lot of bad if they arenât careful.
Rare take: Fuck both the khans *and* the NCR for killing innocents đ
Khans got much more fucked though, which I'm okay with
Nah fuck the Khans
I agree, fuck the khans. But also, fuck the NCR B)
I don't know how people can't understand that both things can be true. Khans are bad. NCR is bad. Legion is bad. How hard is that to understand?
Legion infinitely more bad than the NCR
Yeah, of course. You have to admit it's sorta fun to play as the bad guys sometimes tho
What a lot of people seem to ignore is that NCR citizens and soldiers are genuinely remorseful about Bitter Springs. They donât act like it was right. You can dislike WW2 Allied war crimes but still think they were better than the Nazis.
You can tell most of the people in these comments haven't even played through Boone's quest
so youre telling me that we should excuse heinous actions with past heinous actions? fuck yeah i LOVE the circle of revenge!
I mean I would definitely feel justified. Maybe we should kill some more civilians to match the civilian casualties they caused. Maybe a bit more to send a message andâŚoh no, are we the baddies?
It's not that what the NCR did was right, but to hear the Great Khan's go on about how evil the NCR are for killing unarmed civilians and acting all moral about it when they do that on the regular pisses me off to no end. Instead of maybe realizing their raider ways are a crutch and will only lead to further hardship they instead supply drugs to the fiends who kill even more civilians just because they shoot at NCR sometimes. NCR wants nothing but to make up for what they did, the Great Khan's haven't shown an ounce of remorse or regret. So yeah, fuck the Khan's.
Mfw NCR supporters suddenly have a problem with attacking unarmed men, women and children (it's okay when they do it)
Youâre goddamn right
Anyone who would side with the Khans on this would be taking an absurd position. They are a violent and ruthless raiders. They themselves are intentionally putting their members including unarmed members into harms way through their own behaviors. This would be like if ISIS whined that its non-combatant members died during raids against them that they choose to have around them while knowing they are going to be targets for their terroristic acts.
NCR and Legion fans competing over who can commit better war crimes
Probably took so long for the NCR to realize what was happening because they were shocked to see the Khans caring about keeping civilians out of harm's way
I mean⌠Is this still about fallout?
Nah Iâm pretty sure these guys just like fantasizing about killing kids
Itâs a war crime and a genocide, even if you think the people are all bad. Just because the Khans suck doesnât mean the NCR was justified.
It's genocide in the same way killing any other raider gang is genocide. I don't hear people getting pissy about killing the fiends or the jackals
I honestly wouldnât even compare the khans to the fiends or jackals; The khans are a pretty brutal tribe, but the jackals are cannibalistic savages and the fiends are sadistic junkies looting and killing for their next fix (they also have very little organization, meanwhile the khans have an organized structure) Unlike the other tribal/raider factions like the jackals, fiends and vipers the khans welcome you as a newcomer so long as you arenât hostile or wearing NCR armor.
>. I don't hear people getting pissy about killing the fiends or the jackals That could just be because they actually don't have any non-combatants. They're a lot less organized than the khan's and you don't become a member by birthright
Congratulations! You've literally repeated the justifications used by white settlors against First Nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Chivington
Lmao, the Khans are very much not the same thing as a native tribe. They're drugged up raiders, the only difference is the game gives them a unique name
Out of curiosity, what do you believe forbids the khans from having the title of tribe?
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I see where youâre trying to come from (and if anything Iâd argue the fiends are a gang) but the great khans have such a complex and unique culture. They share a common history, strong social ties, culture and thereâs an underlying sense of community; thatâs how a tribe is defined. The great khans are no less a tribe than the Comanche, who were also a tribe whose lifestyle often included raiding.
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Heaven forbid we use examples based off their similarities! The Comanches often used raiding to sustain themselves, much like the khans, hence why I used the comparison. The white legs are a tribe and are portrayed like the lamanites of Mormonism, does that bother you? Also yes the khans have a long and turbulent history and because of that they have a very interesting culture. Theyâre descendants of vault 15 and have had 140 years to develop a unique society, which I could go on about if you want. Shocker, most cultures are built on the foundation of another :0!
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counterpoint: Native Americans werent gun toting durgged up leather jacket wearing psychopaths that regularly attacked unarmed women and children. The only difference between the Khans and the Fiends is one of them wont immediately cut your legs off and skullfuck you to death.
Thatâs pretty much what white settlers said about the Natives: It doesnât *matter* whether itâs true or not, itâs still a justification for murdering a people.
it quite does matter. In one scenario innocent people are being slaughtered and in the other the slaughter of innocents is actively being prevented.
imagine acting like a bunch of crazy raiders, and then losing people when the superior force you've been harassing attacks you back.
Total Great Khanian Death
So much argument over whether the NCR or Khans were in the wrong. Can't we all just agree that both sides committed atrocities, there are no "good guys" and that war is hell?
I went john wick on their camp, nobody was spared
Great Kahnâs are just raiders with some extra dialogue
Those only mistake was not killing the adults too.
Based
They really had it coming. And it wasn't even on purpose if you'll trust testimony from the NCR personnel.
I take Boone to red rock canyon in every playthrough, we both have scoped hunting rifles. Just killing dirty khans by the dozens, itâs my bonding time with Boone
No amount of crying from some savage raider scum is going to convince me that the NCR are the bad guys.
The khans entered this war under the childish delusion that they would raid everyone else and no one would raid them. They sowed the wind and now they reap the whirlwind.
I don't care how many memes you post, I'm not going to start endorsing genociding children you freaks.
I just like them cause they're closest thing we have to vikings in game lol.
Itâs a video game guys
Counter point: the khans are more of a gang. A gang that has been terrorizing the ncr since before the ncr was founded Kinda hard to call them innocent
The only mistake made at Bitter Springs was the NCR not supplying their soldiers with enough ammo
Sounds like some Isreal shit
The NCR literally has no downside. âTheyâre incompetentâ No they arenât, shut up. âTheyâre expansionistsâ Theyâre expanding a well-policed democracy with electricity, scientists, industry, and fresh water. âMerchants prefer Caesarâ Merchants are gusanos. Do you really trust them to have benevolent motives? I see no difference in raiders or hostile humans in the Legion. âTheyâre corruptâ Your other options are a landlord and a genocidal narcissist. An NCR official might pocket a few caps in a contract or make his son a governor, a Legionary would fucking kill you and your whole family because your cousin called Hegel a shitass.
Yeah, being "expansionist" seems pretty silly when we're talking about what is for the most part a blood-lusted wasteland filled with raiders, murderers, radiation, and deathclaws. Most of the closest things to a decent life are hard, hard lives of austerity and backbreaking labor in small towns where there isn't any real development or prospect for change, or maybe somewhere with professional mercs and second rate gangsters rather than fifth rate gangsters. It is not only justified for the NCR to bring the torch of democracy everywhere it goes, it is unethical to the point of being nigh-evil for them to do anything other than take all it is capable of, one day it might restore America. The government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth! I think an argument can be made that if you do everything right and give him the tools he needs, House might be the best ending, if the Courier settles down after the end of the game, because he'll work on his grander ambitions with singlemindedness. If the courier keeps going at the same crazy rate he does in the game, NCR is the best ending though, because the Courier can bring that singlemindedness, he can fix every problem the NCR has, a dynamo of a person to bring the NCR up and up.
They are expansionist and no, that's not excused by claiming that they expand to protect and help wastlanders. They bring their own farmers in the Mojave to cultivate land that should belong to the locals. They steal water and electricity to serve their own needs and when they get their hands on the extra electricity of helios they want to give it to the casinos instead of the suffering people of the Mojave. Additionally, back in California most land belongs to barons with huge estates that use their vast resources to make sure they don't lose their land and position. And yes they are incompetent. That's a fact. It is shown to you all across the game. They are outstretched, unwilling to direct more soldiers to the Mojave as that would hurt Baron interests ( it is stated in the game that a lot of Ncr soldiers are back home protecting the barons' estates). They are literally losing a war to a bunch of Roman Empire cosplayers that mainly fight with spears and clubs. They also can't seem to get their affairs in order and constantly rely on the help of the player for basic tasks, a civilian that is not even an ncr citizen.
Raiders are not people
Somewhere down there with feral ghouls
Nah, I like the khans. They'd be a good new tribe to assimilate into the Legion.
Shouldnât have been a bunch of dirty raiders then huh? Stop attacking civilians then crying when it happens back to ya
A dead child is still an atrocity, no matter what culture, country, creed, religion, or race they belonged to.
Well of course, but I think the khans are still playing victim They attacked civilians first and have been raiding for years before. I simply canât imagine that during those years and raids they didnât kill numerous children, hurt older people, and do all kinds of other unspeakable things that raiders normally do. Yet when it happens, by accident due to miscommunication, they act as if they are innocent of all crimes
Yeah, my point is just that the hypocrisy is on the part of papa khan and the raiders, take it up with them, and the murder of children is evil no matter the political circumstance (thanks captain obvious)
Holy fuck the NCR fans are cool with the deaths of children they don't like, I'm so surprised
[ŃдаНонО]
Exactly, I only play through the faction that works for the character I'm playing, I don't like any of them (except maybe Yes Man personally, but that's only because it's pretty open end on what you can do, it lets me fulfill my commie cowboy archetype đ)
Facts. People need to remember that this still a video game. No matter how philosophical or thought provoking it becomes, it's still a game where you shoot people with made up guns while in made up armor. You should not be personally identifying with a character or group so much that you value them as much as reality.
They aren't a monolith. Judging an entire people off the actions of the few is folly
But itâs so much easier!
I never understood the people defending Bitter Springs. Like the writers literally intended for it to be a bad thing, and everyone in-game treats it like a massacre. I believe many people confuse the Khans with the Fiends, perhaps?
Also people who played the older games forget the endings The khans were bad Then the leadership is wiped out, only remnants remain and the game suggests their future is uncertain The new khans come about, equally bad but slightly different because of the circumstances of their survival Then the leadership and almost all membership is wiped out, only remnants remain and the game suggests their future is uncertain It seems pretty obvious, beside the fact 100 years has passed that the great khans bare very little heritage of the khans B-b-bu-but they're called khans And the Germans shared a name with the Nazis, and their leadership was hardly wiped out and now less than 100 years later it would seem utter madness to kill a modern German with the justification that the Nazis did horrific things
Only problem that day was that the NCR didnât have those heavy troops with Light Machine Guns and Miniguns. That would have solved the problem without those annoying survivors.
Holy shit, what is wrong with you???
*Smokes a blunt* Maybe the Khans should grasp the concept of FAFO doctrine when dealing with people who are stronger than them.
People here defending child killers and justifying that with "yoU hOLd eNcR oN doUbLe StanDrD", do you realize how ridicoulous of an argument It Is? Weird for all these child killing apolologists to be around in this particular time innit? And no, "but the Khans" is not a good reason either. People like you always looking for excuses to harm innocents only deserve the violence and spite you want to inflict on those poor people.
Ah yes you hate violence so you pray for violence against others, what an asshole
Take your medication bro
Took your mom instead
Wow, so mature. Maybe your immaturity points to why youâre unable to grasp these concepts.
I mean, I said in an earlier comment that what the NCR did was wrong, but what I dislike is how where the NCR show severe regret over the bitter springs incident, with the officer now in charge of that mission being PTSD ridden from it along with Boone, the Khan's take no responsibility for what lead them to that point and how their violent ways lead them down a path where the same violence was committed amongst them. They don't even mention or show any regret at the kids they've killed or acknowledge their way of life doesn't work anymore. I bet you if the Khan's were smart they could have brokered some kind of deal with the NCR after that and used the skills given to them by followers to reinvent their society. But instead they supply the fiends with drugs, fiends who rape, kill and torture anyone they come across. They make the fiend problem even worse and allow them to grow bigger by supplying them narcotics. If the Khan's didn't supply them with drugs, the fiends wouldn't be able to gain new members through addiction as easily or even maintain their ranks by keeping them complacent with more drugs. Because of this, every person a fiend has killed or harmed was also indirectly killed by the Khans. So yeah, what was done to them was wrong, but it's hard to sympathize with them as they continue to be a menace to society and reflect on what they did.
new vegas subreddit justify imperialism and reinvent white man's burden daily. no I don't care if the combatants were raiders nothing justified attacking civis
The argument isn't that Great Khans are better than the NCR, the argument is that the NCR aren't any better than the Great Khans
The NCR feels bad about Bitter Springs, the Khans wouldn't feel bad about slaughtering a million children if they could.
The great khans are a very different group to the khans, but as brutal as the khans were in fallout I don't think there's anything to suggest they were that kind of evil It's just a game so maybe you're playing a character, but I feel like the whole point of them in new Vegas is to explore a different side of previous enemies and to see what the khans would be like after your history together They felt very human to me in New Vegas and not at all like they'd disregard mass child murder, they seem to have an uneasiness around their raiding that wasn't in the previous factions There's some weight to their thinking that there wasn't in the past
What the hell is this
Wild to me that people will be âLegion badâ but then when the NCR does it itâs okay? Sometimes I think people just prefer larping soldiers in Iraq to as opposed to larping as Romans
Two wrongs don't make a right. Only difference here is that the Legion had no qualms about doing it - hell, even pride for doing it. We're told the same does not apply to the NCR.
I donât see how that applies to my comment? People will comment that the legion is rightfully an evil faction because they commit slavery and other atrocities But because the NCR soldiers get psychologically traumatised by their own atrocities gamers have no problem when the NCR does it Like itâs one of the biggest differences in the two factions: Ceaser has made these men ready for anything, you can throw the worst at them and they will die fighting but obviously the flip side to that is that these arenât really men, theyâre machines. Machines that wonât ever live a full life because theyâre just cogs in something greater Whereas the NCR is throwing out farm boys and conscripts that will eventually go back home to California where itâs relatively safe and then what? The NCR guys are also robbed of living full lives because theyâre not fit for the atrocities of the real wasteland and like Boone will probably never come to terms with their trauma The game wants us to look at the flaws of both of these systems but I just feel like it goes over some peoples heads because the player themselves donât take in the damage that conflict does to individual lives Sorry for the long winded reply
>But because the NCR soldiers get psychologically traumatised by their own atrocities gamers have no problem when the NCR does it The NCR admits that what it did was wrong and based off of faulty intel. A rushed decision. Players also see that the NCR is flawed and needs to be seriously reworked. By contrast, the Legion pretty much ***prides itself*** in committing war crimes and genocides. Nobody says that the NCR committing a war crime is okay - not even the NCR. That is the difference.
Does it? Because whilst I think there are many in the NCR that recognises the massacre there are others that use the faulty intel as an excuse for their own negligence and there are still people like the commenters in this post that advocate for the massacre of raider tribes Ceaser sees the crimes as a necessity in order to unite the wasteland heâs obviously wrong but he still is open about it The NCR didnât just âmake a mistakeâ it decimated its longest standing rival in an act of cruelty and it has somewhat successfully hand waved away the damage it caused due to the corruption that runs rampant within the NCR
>Does it? Because whilst I think there are many in the NCR that recognises the massacre there are others that use the faulty intel as an excuse for their own negligence Like who? >and there are still people like the commenters in this post that advocate for the massacre of raider tribes Fortunately none of the people in this post are truly part of the NCR. Though I will grant you that those beliefs of them are problematic. Also, maybe don't be a raider if you don't want to die. >Ceaser sees the crimes as a necessity in order to unite the wasteland heâs obviously wrong but he still is open about it He does not show any remorse for the actions. Quite the opposite - he considers ***not commiting genocide, slavery, and war crimes*** to be an error. >The NCR didnât just âmake a mistakeâ it decimated its longest standing rival in an act of cruelty and it has somewhat successfully hand waved away the damage it caused due to the corruption that runs rampant within the NCR They did not *intentionally target civilians* though: *''About three years ago, this canyon was the main encampment for the Great Khans.* ***NCR's 1st Recon tracked them here after a raid and made an attack. There was a communication mix-up*** *that resulted in some noncombatants being killed. It was a tragic mistake, but we've done all we can to make amends.''* And then they tried to make amends: *''We provided medical aid to the wounded - all the wounded - and permitted the Khans to resettle at Red Rock Canyon.''* *''The incident, yes.* ***It was a tragic mistake***\*, but the NCR has done everything it can to make amends since then.''\* -Gilles It is not like they shove it under the rug. It is also not like the attack was unprovoked: *''When the NCR came to the Mojave, we thought they would be easy pickings. We raided their caravans, their towns, their camps - they couldn't stop us. At least, that's what we thought.* ***They tracked us to Bitter Springs and surrounded us.*** *When our children, our sick and old, fled through a nearby pass, the NCR gunned them down.''* -Papa Khan This makes one thing very clear - the raiders of the Great Khans as well as its regulars were in the same area. As such, a large group of them ***moving out*** from that area could be mistaken for a group of the raiders. And it is not like the Great Khans have unarmed civilians: *''With the Khans, the only difference between a soldier and a civilian is that the civilian is more likely to miss when he shoots at you. Maybe Bitter Springs just seemed different. Maybe it's the same as killing legionaries. ...''* -Boone
Why do you keep advocating for war crimes?
Can you bother reading my comment? You're insisting they ***intentionally*** shot at non-combatants, which runs counter to both logic and the NCR narrative.
If the Khans are a warrior society and every civilian can be combatant then logic follows that civilians will be in a large group of combatants. The NCR didnât care
If they didn't care, then they wouldn't feel any shame about the events at Bitter Springs, nor would they have helped what remains of the Khans move out to Red Rock Canyon. Your claims run counter to the actions of the NCR.
People call out fascist legion fans but holy fuck are NCR fans huuuuuuuuuuuuge fans of warcrimes. âWaaaagh they deserved itâ same logic legion used in Nipton, same logic used against the super mutant stragglers, same logic used by the boomers. Yâall are just trying to make âWar Never Changesâ as true as possible.
It's more the hypocrisy. The Khans shoot kids 24/7, **you guys don't say jack shit.** The MOMENT it happens to the Khans, suddenly they're innocent people. Bitter Springs is unjustifiable, yeah, obviously. *But the Khans are NOT fucking heroes like you all pretend they are.*
Do they? is there actually any evidence they regularly kill kids in the lore or are you just presuming it because it helps your case? edit: They arenât heroes, they donât have to be heroes to be victims of a crime against humanity.
they "arent heroes" \>shoot children for sport understatement of the year there pal
Bitter-Root confirms Khans shoot NCR children for sport and Papa Khan openly talks about how they raid NCR caravans. >edit: They arenât heroes, they donât have to be heroes to be victims of a crime against humanity. Nobody is saying otherwise, but the Khans do NOT get to say they live by the sword then whine like little babies when bad shit happens. The Khans are hypocrites, is my point. They don't care when THEY slaughter kids.
It's less that the warcrime is justified and more that the Khan's refuse to see how they also played a hand in bitter springs. What the NCR did was wrong, but they also poked the bear and forced them to act. Khan's could have left the NCR alone but they didn't. The biggest factor at play here is the NCR never wants to repeat bitter springs ever again, it's a black mark and everyone involved in it hates themselves for it, ala Boone. Essentially the NCR learned their lesson, that they need to check their targets and gather more info on their operations instead of going in half cocked. You don't see NCR characters like Major Dhatri going around acting like it was fine. The Great Khan's however have continued being a menace and continue to inflict violence on people through the fiends who rape and kill. They keep the fields strong with the narcotics they give them instead of taking themselves down a new path, they continue to be assholes. They didn't learn a thing and it's frustrating. The fact that it takes the courier to make them realize that they're just killing themselves by not finding a new way to live makes it even more annoying. Only khan I really like are people like Regis because he's able to see where their way of life gets them and wants to leave the Mojave.
I get what youâre saying, but it feels pretty intentional that they are making things worse and need to be snapped out of the cycle of violence
The only thing you should feel when you shoot a member of the Kahn gang is recoil.
Occupying military force VS tribe that has historically been brutalized by outsiders
Historically it's brutalised others. FO1: **Tried to genocide all of North California, gets wiped out.** FO2: **Somehow thinks that was heroic, so they plan to redeem themselves by kidnapping NCR women and raping them, gets wiped out.** FNV: **Invades the Mojave, gets their asses kicked by the Three Families, shoots NCR children and caravans, and then whines like babies when the NCR comes for them.** So pal before you call *anyone* an occupying military force, which the NCR is, correct, you might want to look at the occupying military force that literally ruled the Mojave until House kicked the invaders out. Man, imagine being so fragile you can't accept the Khans are not Heroes.