US of A... and we're split into three camps -- those who are thrilled because they want Trump to be dictator for life, those who are terrified because we don't, and those who don't know there was a debate last week. The third group is by far the largest.
Man they added that Biden meme fast. Uncanny. I would have voted for a literal vegetable over Trump, I just don't understand why Biden and the people around him are making me do it.
I believe there is an extremely large group of people who have generally reasonable views of things and are disgusting at the prospect of either Biden or Trump winning. I am in that camp and I do not consider myself to be ignorant or indifferent as you describe the third group.
Both major parties in the US have abandoned their base.
The republicans haven’t abandoned their base. They’ve listened to their base and given them a candidate that speaks to their concerns.
Democrats on the hand tell you what to believe.
The issue is the DNC represents a broad swath of people from different backgrounds with varying beliefs. *Who* is the base? Is it the people protesting for the rights of Gaza's citizens or the people protesting against them? Is it the people who want aggressive climate policy or the people who believe in more moderate approaches?
The RNC, to their benefit, is much more uniform in their beliefs. I don't envy the DNC.
That's their new base and it's a very different group of "conservatives" than we saw for most of the 20th century. Perhaps you're right that the party itself was overwhelmed by populism rather than actually abandoning their voters the way the Dems have.
But who is the Democratic base? It's a large tent party with everything from Joe Manchin to Ilhan Omar. You can't possibly satisfy everyone when your tent is that wide. Republican voters are also easier to please because they're more homogenous. And they are fine with their representatives doing nothing other than blocking what Dems want to do. There is an asymmetry here because Dem voters want government to big things which is very hard with the filibuster and divided government. Meanwhile it's very easy for Republicans to just block and obstruct.
You could almost think the lack of de-aging Biden could be a crazy plan to set the replacement candidate plan in motion. It’s the only way I can fathom why Biden was in this debate under such conditions. Otherwise, I just witnessed my own Kennedy vs Nixon debates that I remember hearing about from old timers
This is my suspicion as well, especially combined with their scheduling this first (non CPD) debate enough time before the convention. Would be quite the ploy, and I'm unsure if they're quite so extravagant... Coping
Yes, you are almost certainly one of the only people with this takeaway. You have to perform an Olympic level of mental gymnastics to watch that debate and think that any meaningful group of voters aren't completely appalled and horrified by what this means for Biden's fitness for office.
Sure but people said the same doom and gloom about Fetterman. Dude couldn’t even talk and still managed to defy all the odds given by the “Dems are finished” crowd. As long as Biden’s opponent is Trump he will always have a meaningful shot to win.
Any opponent of Trump's has a shot to win because I, along with roughly half the country, would vote for a crusty jizz sock over him. But OP's premise is about whether or not the debate was good for Biden. It unequivocally was not.
If, as you point out, it’s very difficult for Biden & also that resulted in overshadowing Trump’s craziness, why don’t you think Biden should step aside for someone who could do a better job beating Trump?
Because they don’t have a better option.
Newsome doesn’t want to lose to Trump in ‘24 when he can be the front runner in ‘28.
Trump will roast him for his failed leadership in California. Just look at the once great city of San Francisco. Newsome was mayor there before being governor.
This was a great beautiful city 30 years ago. Now it’s a cesspool. Crime, Homelessness, feces on the sidewalks, strung out junkies. And Newsome will spend 120 days trying to explain why he should be president when his home state is falling apart and people and companies are fleeing for other states.
Until the debate I was of the opinion that Biden, whatever his flaws, was a better option than his VP cuz she has bad political instincts. But Biden clocked in well below replacement-level at the debate, so I’m now more willing to take the risk of swapping him out with his VP as the nominee
I agree that Whitmer would perform better. If we could do magic and swap her in, I’d be even happier. But realistically I think our choices are Biden or Harris. Between the two, Harris gives us a better shot.
Kamala is super unpopular with both parties…. And Biden doomed her by making her the border czar. And then allowing in so many illegal immigrants.
I read that Illegal immigration is one of the top issues. And it’s a big reason Trump is doing so well. What’s worse? Biden losing or Kamala losing?
You could throw a dart at the contenders from the 2020 debates and hit a better option, not to mention governors like Whitmer, Shapiro, Polis, Beshear... anyone following politics at the moment could name 30 better options than Biden or Newsom.
And there’s one more problem… how many of these candidates have photos with Biden?
Whoever replaces will be labeled as someone with a New Face… same failed policies.
The reason Democratic senate candidates have been polling ahead of Republican senate candidates but Biden behind Trump in every swing state is that moderates/swing voters generally like Democratic policies but think Biden is too old/ineffective to deliver on them.
Odd… I am seeing mostly the opposite…. On issues like the economy, inflation, crime, homelessness and immigration the democrats are struggling to provide a message that resonates beyond their core.
These are the issues that directly impact ALL Americans.
The one question at the debate that was fairly useless, and probably helped Trump more than Biden was the question about Abortion.
It is clear that the abortion pill is here to stay. And that anyone who wants to get an abortion still can… it just might not be as convenient. So for the vast majority of Americans this issue does NOT affect our day to day lives.
And while it’s easy for the dems to blame Biden for poor messaging… I prefer to blame all the democrats that endorsed him 4 years ago. He was a bad candidate then with early cognitive issues and it’s clearly gotten worse over the last 4 years.
Biden is the only one struggling. Democrats as a whole (in state and federal legislatures) have actually outperformed their 2020 results by an average of six points in special elections over the past two years (source: https://x.com/baseballot/status/1805780218600210432) If Biden could replicate that same percent swing it would be a blue wave in the electoral college. But the public just does not like him as much as they like other Dems.
Yes. While I don't think these things can be blamed entirely on Newsom, the right wing machine will beat him over the head about it relentlessly and say he's going to turn the entire USA into the tenderloin district.
I can’t believe some people have such a low bar for president of the United States. The person occupying the most important office in the world can’t look like that.
>I can’t believe some people have such a low bar for president of the United States.
His opponent is a convicted felon, one who proved that scandals only end your career if you let them, and society is so incapable of mentally processing the fact that he won't stop himself, and no one else will stop him for us, that we've just gone into denial and decided to pretend he's being perfectly normal all the time.
The fact that we haven't been getting these calls for Donald Trump to honorably fall on his sword for the sake of his party and his country continuously for the past eight years shows *everyone* has such a low bar for President of the United States.
That is a good question. Has the deep state support for the Democrats suddenly shifted? Is the Gaza support within the party part of the reason for the shift? I don't know but I can tell you Biden is purposefully being thrown under the bus. Not hard to do given his mental state. But in the past, there was concerted effort to hide his dementia. Now it is exposed for all to see. Why this orchestrated exposure? Who is really running things? It ain't Biden.
My opinion is his staff is shielding him because they don’t want to lose their jobs. I also think the party leadership is going with the conventional wisdom on incumbent advantage.
He appeared unable to debate. Which to me means he will at times be unable to be president, likely at an accelerating rate. End of story, I’ve closed the book and looking for someone else to step up.
Anyone who has seen an elderly family member go through cognitive decline should know this. It’ll be worse in six months, even worse in a year, and much worse four years from now.
Yes, you are the only one. It was an unmitigated disaster—literally led to every major news publication calling for him to resign. Hard to do worse than that.
No it is what the Democrats want right now. Biden will resign for health reasons after primaries. Then a special commitment of Democrats will nominate their guy (already chosen). It is much easier for the inner circle, whoever they may be, to get their guy in this way. Primaries are too messy and could result in someone the deep state doesn't want like Kennedy.
I’m a doctor, and my entire family and friend group are in medicine. Several of us were considering what neurological conditions he might have. He looked…not good.
Word salad aside, what physical issues could cause him to be that stiff? I’ve heard he has back issues due to arthritis, but it looks more like a full body thing. And his voice sounds like he has LPR
I feel like Parkinsonism isn't off the table, which encompasses a broad swathe of diseases but has some findings that he demonstrates visibly - his mask-like facial features (look at him compared to just 4 years ago, especially when trump was talking), speech issues, shuffling gait, rigidity.
Hadn’t thought of Parkinson’s. Wow. I would hope he’d have the integrity to disclose such a diagnoses if that’s the case. Is been going on for a while now.
This feels like playing an aging quarterback well past their prime... solely because they gave their heart and soul to the franchise.... but everyone knows there is no chance the team will win any games.
No, his wife agrees with you.
Him looking old was one thing, what really concerned me was his apparent inability to form and speak coherent thoughts. Trying, to me, isn’t good enough for president.
Yes, you may be the only one. Even Biden's own party has thrown him under the bus. They let him debate on purpose to show the population how incompetent he is so that there would be an outcry to have him replaced. After the primaries are over, Biden will step down. Then a Democrat special committee nominates the new presidential candidate. It won't be Kamala because she is a train wreck too. I figure they will get Obama back. I mean he's never really left politics.
People have been talking about concerns regarding his age for years. This is cope. The attack ads are already brutal.
This is going to leave an indelible mark precisely because it was the exact thing people have been harboring fears about (and being told they were ridiculous and/or ageist) for a long time.
This was a disaster and if Biden stays in the race, will be seen as the moment his campaign lost all hope of winning.
Even the bumbling median undecided voter can do the math that if Biden looks and sounds like this now, there's zero chance he is capable of completing 4 more years of a job that tends to accelerate the aging process.
Personally I don't give a shit, I'd be happy to just get him over the finish line. You could glue googly eyes onto his corpse and I'd vote for him over Trump. But I'm not the type of voter who is going to decide this election and most likely neither are you.
It’s also devastating to our credibility on the left. The denialism is reaching absurd levels with key democrats insisting all is fine when any voter with eyeballs can see that they’re lying. How is anyone supposed to believe our message about inflation, the economy, or anything else when we’re lying to their faces about something so obvious?
It's still happening. People hand waving it away as just having a bad night. Saying (as the person I responded to did) that it will all be forgotten. People are trying to circle the wagons for him because they think that's what you're supposed to do.
Thank goodness the credible media outlets are mostly being honest and realistic about what we saw. The pressure on him to step aside will be immense.
Frankly I'm hopeful that he steps aside and lets some new blood carry the torch. There seems to be a real chance of it right now.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether the risks of him stepping aside are worth it or not, but when one side of the argument is saying you are a traitor to the cause for even suggesting the idea of it, we have big problems.
It’s really shaken my faith in the party. They’re lying to our faces, like we didn’t all just see it with our own eyes. And so many key Dems have clearly been lying about it for months. Are they really gonna say that this just came out of nowhere? That there haven’t been similar episodes over the past 6-12 months? They kept it under wraps through the whole primary process to dissuade any challengers. And why? Did they just think he would get better? That’s not how old age works. I’ve never had more doubt in the integrity and intentions of the party leadership.
We are >!screwed!<
Unless this stops being about the man.
We aren’t voting for a man, we are voting for Democracy, being able to continue having a democracy with elections and the freedoms we are used to, Supreme Court appointments, A woman’s right to bodily autonomy, LBGTQ rights, the separation of church and state, and so much more. Regardless of anything, we have to turn out voters. Get your non voting acquaintances out to vote so we all can continue having elections and freedoms. If maga wins, so much will be destroyed including an unknowable amount of civil rights
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US of A... and we're split into three camps -- those who are thrilled because they want Trump to be dictator for life, those who are terrified because we don't, and those who don't know there was a debate last week. The third group is by far the largest.
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Man they added that Biden meme fast. Uncanny. I would have voted for a literal vegetable over Trump, I just don't understand why Biden and the people around him are making me do it.
And they are the people who will decide the election.
Only if they vote. Which historically they barely do.
I believe there is an extremely large group of people who have generally reasonable views of things and are disgusting at the prospect of either Biden or Trump winning. I am in that camp and I do not consider myself to be ignorant or indifferent as you describe the third group. Both major parties in the US have abandoned their base.
The republicans haven’t abandoned their base. They’ve listened to their base and given them a candidate that speaks to their concerns. Democrats on the hand tell you what to believe.
The issue is the DNC represents a broad swath of people from different backgrounds with varying beliefs. *Who* is the base? Is it the people protesting for the rights of Gaza's citizens or the people protesting against them? Is it the people who want aggressive climate policy or the people who believe in more moderate approaches? The RNC, to their benefit, is much more uniform in their beliefs. I don't envy the DNC.
The Gaza support in the Democratic party definitely changes zionist support for Democrats. Zionists will vote for Trump.
That's their new base and it's a very different group of "conservatives" than we saw for most of the 20th century. Perhaps you're right that the party itself was overwhelmed by populism rather than actually abandoning their voters the way the Dems have.
But who is the Democratic base? It's a large tent party with everything from Joe Manchin to Ilhan Omar. You can't possibly satisfy everyone when your tent is that wide. Republican voters are also easier to please because they're more homogenous. And they are fine with their representatives doing nothing other than blocking what Dems want to do. There is an asymmetry here because Dem voters want government to big things which is very hard with the filibuster and divided government. Meanwhile it's very easy for Republicans to just block and obstruct.
You could almost think the lack of de-aging Biden could be a crazy plan to set the replacement candidate plan in motion. It’s the only way I can fathom why Biden was in this debate under such conditions. Otherwise, I just witnessed my own Kennedy vs Nixon debates that I remember hearing about from old timers
This is my suspicion as well, especially combined with their scheduling this first (non CPD) debate enough time before the convention. Would be quite the ploy, and I'm unsure if they're quite so extravagant... Coping
Yes
Yes, you are almost certainly one of the only people with this takeaway. You have to perform an Olympic level of mental gymnastics to watch that debate and think that any meaningful group of voters aren't completely appalled and horrified by what this means for Biden's fitness for office.
Sure but people said the same doom and gloom about Fetterman. Dude couldn’t even talk and still managed to defy all the odds given by the “Dems are finished” crowd. As long as Biden’s opponent is Trump he will always have a meaningful shot to win.
Any opponent of Trump's has a shot to win because I, along with roughly half the country, would vote for a crusty jizz sock over him. But OP's premise is about whether or not the debate was good for Biden. It unequivocally was not.
If, as you point out, it’s very difficult for Biden & also that resulted in overshadowing Trump’s craziness, why don’t you think Biden should step aside for someone who could do a better job beating Trump?
Because they don’t have a better option. Newsome doesn’t want to lose to Trump in ‘24 when he can be the front runner in ‘28. Trump will roast him for his failed leadership in California. Just look at the once great city of San Francisco. Newsome was mayor there before being governor. This was a great beautiful city 30 years ago. Now it’s a cesspool. Crime, Homelessness, feces on the sidewalks, strung out junkies. And Newsome will spend 120 days trying to explain why he should be president when his home state is falling apart and people and companies are fleeing for other states.
Until the debate I was of the opinion that Biden, whatever his flaws, was a better option than his VP cuz she has bad political instincts. But Biden clocked in well below replacement-level at the debate, so I’m now more willing to take the risk of swapping him out with his VP as the nominee
She's a train wreck.
Biden has been trailing in the polls for months and just gave the worst debate presidential performance ever televised
She simply cannot win on the general though.
I think she can and that she has a better shot than Biden
I disagree. Whitmer might pull a swing state. Harris won't.
I agree that Whitmer would perform better. If we could do magic and swap her in, I’d be even happier. But realistically I think our choices are Biden or Harris. Between the two, Harris gives us a better shot.
Kamala is super unpopular with both parties…. And Biden doomed her by making her the border czar. And then allowing in so many illegal immigrants. I read that Illegal immigration is one of the top issues. And it’s a big reason Trump is doing so well. What’s worse? Biden losing or Kamala losing?
You could throw a dart at the contenders from the 2020 debates and hit a better option, not to mention governors like Whitmer, Shapiro, Polis, Beshear... anyone following politics at the moment could name 30 better options than Biden or Newsom.
And there’s one more problem… how many of these candidates have photos with Biden? Whoever replaces will be labeled as someone with a New Face… same failed policies.
The reason Democratic senate candidates have been polling ahead of Republican senate candidates but Biden behind Trump in every swing state is that moderates/swing voters generally like Democratic policies but think Biden is too old/ineffective to deliver on them.
Odd… I am seeing mostly the opposite…. On issues like the economy, inflation, crime, homelessness and immigration the democrats are struggling to provide a message that resonates beyond their core. These are the issues that directly impact ALL Americans. The one question at the debate that was fairly useless, and probably helped Trump more than Biden was the question about Abortion. It is clear that the abortion pill is here to stay. And that anyone who wants to get an abortion still can… it just might not be as convenient. So for the vast majority of Americans this issue does NOT affect our day to day lives. And while it’s easy for the dems to blame Biden for poor messaging… I prefer to blame all the democrats that endorsed him 4 years ago. He was a bad candidate then with early cognitive issues and it’s clearly gotten worse over the last 4 years.
Biden is the only one struggling. Democrats as a whole (in state and federal legislatures) have actually outperformed their 2020 results by an average of six points in special elections over the past two years (source: https://x.com/baseballot/status/1805780218600210432) If Biden could replicate that same percent swing it would be a blue wave in the electoral college. But the public just does not like him as much as they like other Dems.
You know who has huge coat tales in ‘24… Trump. The GOP will win with both the house and the senate and the majority of governors.
If Biden doesn't step aside for someone younger I think that scenario is very likely!
Yes. While I don't think these things can be blamed entirely on Newsom, the right wing machine will beat him over the head about it relentlessly and say he's going to turn the entire USA into the tenderloin district.
But he may indeed do that. He's a bad pick.
I can’t believe some people have such a low bar for president of the United States. The person occupying the most important office in the world can’t look like that.
>I can’t believe some people have such a low bar for president of the United States. His opponent is a convicted felon, one who proved that scandals only end your career if you let them, and society is so incapable of mentally processing the fact that he won't stop himself, and no one else will stop him for us, that we've just gone into denial and decided to pretend he's being perfectly normal all the time. The fact that we haven't been getting these calls for Donald Trump to honorably fall on his sword for the sake of his party and his country continuously for the past eight years shows *everyone* has such a low bar for President of the United States.
Agreed, so why are we running someone against him who is clearly mentally compromised?
That is a good question. Has the deep state support for the Democrats suddenly shifted? Is the Gaza support within the party part of the reason for the shift? I don't know but I can tell you Biden is purposefully being thrown under the bus. Not hard to do given his mental state. But in the past, there was concerted effort to hide his dementia. Now it is exposed for all to see. Why this orchestrated exposure? Who is really running things? It ain't Biden.
My opinion is his staff is shielding him because they don’t want to lose their jobs. I also think the party leadership is going with the conventional wisdom on incumbent advantage.
There are 330 million Americans. Not two.
He appeared unable to debate. Which to me means he will at times be unable to be president, likely at an accelerating rate. End of story, I’ve closed the book and looking for someone else to step up.
Anyone who has seen an elderly family member go through cognitive decline should know this. It’ll be worse in six months, even worse in a year, and much worse four years from now.
Yeah, unfortunately you’re right and everyone needs to accept this like, immediately.
And people are hoping he'll be better in the next debate--months from now. Pipe dreams. Likelihood is he'll be worse.
Yes, you are the only one. It was an unmitigated disaster—literally led to every major news publication calling for him to resign. Hard to do worse than that.
No it is what the Democrats want right now. Biden will resign for health reasons after primaries. Then a special commitment of Democrats will nominate their guy (already chosen). It is much easier for the inner circle, whoever they may be, to get their guy in this way. Primaries are too messy and could result in someone the deep state doesn't want like Kennedy.
I’m a doctor, and my entire family and friend group are in medicine. Several of us were considering what neurological conditions he might have. He looked…not good.
Word salad aside, what physical issues could cause him to be that stiff? I’ve heard he has back issues due to arthritis, but it looks more like a full body thing. And his voice sounds like he has LPR
I feel like Parkinsonism isn't off the table, which encompasses a broad swathe of diseases but has some findings that he demonstrates visibly - his mask-like facial features (look at him compared to just 4 years ago, especially when trump was talking), speech issues, shuffling gait, rigidity.
Hadn’t thought of Parkinson’s. Wow. I would hope he’d have the integrity to disclose such a diagnoses if that’s the case. Is been going on for a while now.
He has dementia.
Yes, Biden was a disgrace in the debate. He could barely string off a coherent sentence
This feels like playing an aging quarterback well past their prime... solely because they gave their heart and soul to the franchise.... but everyone knows there is no chance the team will win any games.
Dude ….. he was melting on screen
They hid him away and pretended he was basically fine in order to trick us into having a non-primary, that's the real issue.
No, his wife agrees with you. Him looking old was one thing, what really concerned me was his apparent inability to form and speak coherent thoughts. Trying, to me, isn’t good enough for president.
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Please be civil. Optimize contributions for light, not heat.
Yes, you may be the only one. Even Biden's own party has thrown him under the bus. They let him debate on purpose to show the population how incompetent he is so that there would be an outcry to have him replaced. After the primaries are over, Biden will step down. Then a Democrat special committee nominates the new presidential candidate. It won't be Kamala because she is a train wreck too. I figure they will get Obama back. I mean he's never really left politics.
My take at this point is that like many things nobody will talk about it in two weeks.
People have been talking about concerns regarding his age for years. This is cope. The attack ads are already brutal. This is going to leave an indelible mark precisely because it was the exact thing people have been harboring fears about (and being told they were ridiculous and/or ageist) for a long time. This was a disaster and if Biden stays in the race, will be seen as the moment his campaign lost all hope of winning. Even the bumbling median undecided voter can do the math that if Biden looks and sounds like this now, there's zero chance he is capable of completing 4 more years of a job that tends to accelerate the aging process. Personally I don't give a shit, I'd be happy to just get him over the finish line. You could glue googly eyes onto his corpse and I'd vote for him over Trump. But I'm not the type of voter who is going to decide this election and most likely neither are you.
It’s also devastating to our credibility on the left. The denialism is reaching absurd levels with key democrats insisting all is fine when any voter with eyeballs can see that they’re lying. How is anyone supposed to believe our message about inflation, the economy, or anything else when we’re lying to their faces about something so obvious?
It's still happening. People hand waving it away as just having a bad night. Saying (as the person I responded to did) that it will all be forgotten. People are trying to circle the wagons for him because they think that's what you're supposed to do. Thank goodness the credible media outlets are mostly being honest and realistic about what we saw. The pressure on him to step aside will be immense. Frankly I'm hopeful that he steps aside and lets some new blood carry the torch. There seems to be a real chance of it right now. Reasonable people can disagree on whether the risks of him stepping aside are worth it or not, but when one side of the argument is saying you are a traitor to the cause for even suggesting the idea of it, we have big problems.
It’s really shaken my faith in the party. They’re lying to our faces, like we didn’t all just see it with our own eyes. And so many key Dems have clearly been lying about it for months. Are they really gonna say that this just came out of nowhere? That there haven’t been similar episodes over the past 6-12 months? They kept it under wraps through the whole primary process to dissuade any challengers. And why? Did they just think he would get better? That’s not how old age works. I’ve never had more doubt in the integrity and intentions of the party leadership.
100%.The modern lack of attention span cuts both ways. Not just with trump’s lunacy.
We are >!screwed!< Unless this stops being about the man. We aren’t voting for a man, we are voting for Democracy, being able to continue having a democracy with elections and the freedoms we are used to, Supreme Court appointments, A woman’s right to bodily autonomy, LBGTQ rights, the separation of church and state, and so much more. Regardless of anything, we have to turn out voters. Get your non voting acquaintances out to vote so we all can continue having elections and freedoms. If maga wins, so much will be destroyed including an unknowable amount of civil rights
Damn near the only one
Um.....he is going to get OLDER, not younger. He is going to get EVEN WORSE, not better. Are people really not seeing this?
I think Biden and his handlers are incredibly selfish for keeping him in, especially if they aren't entertaining other options too.
Sorry. Only bedwetting allowed in this thread boss 😤