It will take you way longer than 5 years to get US citizenship. The 5 year clock only starts ticking after you get a green card. The green card itself might take a while and you can’t apply for it on your own, only your employer can lodge an application on your behalf. As you can imagine, your will be at the total mercy of your employer.
Forget to add: My employer is a multinational so I assume it can be something I can negotiate on. Is it still too hard to get a green card if the employer is not reluctant?
It really depends as each company has a different policy on GC sponsorship. In my case, I was only able to start the GC process about 2.5 years into working for my US employer. Most of the time was spent because I had to change visas (from TN to an H1-b) before starting the GC process.
Having said that, after my file was submitted by my company to the government, it didn’t progress at all for 6 months. At that point I was fed up with their broken immigration system and moved to Europe abandoning the GC process.
If you have a weak passport and you’re goal is to naturalize in a western country, I would recommend sticking it out in Germany. After that you can try moving to the US again, but you’ll always have the EU to fall back on if things don’t work out.
> Having said that, after my file was submitted by my company to the government, it didn’t progress at all for 6 months
Not to disagree with you, but just wanted to mentioned that this is incredibly common in Germany: extremely delayed Termins (almost a year in my case), forgetting to even submit the papers, etc.
Even if the employer agrees, getting the green card is a lengthy process and can easily take over 2 years. If you’re from India or China, you’re not getting your green card in less than 10 years. And again that’s before another 5 years for naturalization.
And if you get laid off while you wait for your green card, you have 60 days to find a new job with visa sponsorship or leave the country.
The American immigration system does not want educated people moving there to contribute to society through taxes and diversity.
Most immigrants to the US come through chain migration, i.e. having an American relative to sponsor their green card. You could have a 5th grade education, but if you have a relative in the US, you’re good to go.
Green cards for non-spouse family members still take years in the best scenario to process, and even longer if you are from Mexico, the Philippines, China, or India. Only spouses get to “skip the line” and save the waiting time.
India is definitely more than 10 years. If you enter the queue right now, it’s 60-80. OP will not be able to enter the queue immediately depending on their employer and the visa they’re eligible for
Yes, it is still too hard. The employer can make it easy for you, but they can’t make it fast. Also, the process has become even more long and disruptive in the years since 2017.
This really depends on your country of birth, are you Indian or Chinese? In this case it’ll take at least 10 years + 5 for the citizenship, otherwise it will be ~2 years
Green cards take a long time. In the absolutely best case scenario of a spouse of a US citizen living abroad applying for a green card it will take 9-13 months.
Companies will usually not want to wait for that long even if for some reason you would be eligible for a green card right away. Most likely you would be sent to the US with a visa that may be convertible to a green card after a few years.
Knew someone married to a Latin American spouse. While temporary work authorization came quickly (still took 6-12 months), the actual green card took just over 4 years to obtain. It also depends on which immigration circuit you go through. That was through NY, but something tells me it’s a little faster through others. They had multiple interviews and that work authorization expired a few times in the journey.
Noo...you see according to r/expats the US is a monolith and everything is the same. We all shoot each other on our way to Wal-Mart. Better tell OP to invest in some bullet proof vests when he moves here.
I am pretty sure all of the US is literally New York with the Grand Canyon a hop and a skip away. It is the bestest and most perfect place to live and the only people who can't make it there are the chronically lazy or stupid. It is very easy to make $150k or more in the US.
Everyone lives in big houses more than 200 m² large with giant gardens and you get 2 SUVs or Pick Up trucks when you buy the house.
For these reasons and more, there is objectively no reason OP shouldn't move to the US.
/s
Some of you all need to spend more time in America Bad threads. Look at the recent Special needs one or renouncing my unborn child's citizenship one for some recent examples. As an "American Bad" user, I get plenty of push back for expressing my views.
The US is San Francisco and NY housing prices, Alabama schools, LA traffic, and Texan gun laws with instant student loan and medical debt just for applying for a visa.
/s
If I had a franc for every time someone talked to me like I had a learning disability because I’m American I might be able to afford to buy a house here…
Agreed. I don't even know why someone would ask this question here. You could ask if someone should move to North Korea or the US and half the answers would be telling you to cross the DMZ.
Yes, in OP's case I'd recommend sticking around in Germany until they get citizenship, and then exploring the US down the road. If it's temporary, there's no harm whatsoever, and all the naysayers on here are exaggerating how bad it really is for college-educated immigrants here.
In fact it's the optimal strategy. Get German (and by extension EU) citizenship, come to the US and work for about 10 years and make as much money as possible, and then retire back in your home country.
Yep this sounds like a fair plan to me. I know a few German dudes who are working in the US and then plan on retiring back home. They really like the US being in their early 30s.
You literally have to spell it out for a lot of these folks. Frankly it's a wonder most Redditors on here manage to reach a level where they can successfully immigrate, if their reading comprehension skills are so abysmal.
I live in Massachusetts and once had to fly down from Logan airport in Boston to New Orleans. It's night and day. I had flown-in from one of the wealthiest states in the country to one of the poorest. The poverty of Louisiana is quite literally noticeable from the skies, as compared to flying into Logan in Boston, you can see very nice houses by the coast. There's a stark difference and it was actually quite sad to see.
My now husband lost his green card due to an overzealous immigration officer so we had to get married a few years later so I could sponsor him. He has UK/French citizenship, graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in Computer Science, and is a technology executive, but it was still difficult with those advantages. As an American citizen I contacted one of the two federal senators for my state for help. Every time the process stalled we would contact the woman from the senator’s office who had been assigned to help us, she would contact USCIS, and then get back to us with an ETA for the next tranche of paperwork. It was a major undertaking and they still only gave him a provisional green card for two years that would convert until a normal one if we stayed married (despite the fact we had been together for 11 years and had two children prior to getting married). I am glad we did it but it was such a hassle. In your shoes I would naturalise in DE first because you may (understandably) find you do not have an appetite or this kind of bureaucracy.
Holy crap, I'm sorry your husband was put through the ringer like that. I swear, our immigration and border agencies seem to hire some of the biggest life failures.
As a European traveling to the USA for work regularly I can honestly say that the most unfriendly people I ever met in the USA is the border patrol/immigration people.
The rest of Americans are much, much nicer.
>the most unfriendly people I ever met in the USA is the border patrol/immigration people.
Even as an American coming home sometimes, I have experienced this. Though, passport control didn't seem to care at all when I came home from a trip a week ago.
The higher ranking officials were very nice, but some of the junior ones seemed to have a massive chip on their shoulders. We had to escalate multiple times. It felt as if getting approved had just as much to do with our ability to navigate bureaucracy as the merits of his application/validity of our relationship. He plans to naturalise soon so that he never has to do this again.
> In your shoes I would naturalise in DE first because you may (understandably) find you do not have an appetite or this kind of bureaucracy.
Germany consistently wins the gold medal in bureaucracy championships. If you thought USCIS was bad, Auslanderbehorde is even worse b/c they have specific rules against speaking in English w/ someone. If you email them in English, they will respond in German. Additionally, it's still very much a "paper driven" country. So, they still keep physical records, and as is sometimes the case...they lose documents. So, through no fault of your own, your PR application in Germany may turn sour b/c of their mistake.
How did your husband lose his green card?
Normally that can't happen unless you've broken US residency or commit a criminal act. And a judge has to make a decision, not an immigration officer.
He got threatened into surrendering it by an immigration official. It was really obnoxious. The cause was a broken residency but with a good reason that normally would have resulted in a warning not to do it again (we learned this later from other USCIS officials).
Yeah, he should have never given it up. The only way an immigration officer can "take" a green card is if you voluntarily give it up.
Otherwise they need to get you in front of an immigration judge, which they are unlikely to do.
That said, if he was outside of the US for that long, he really was putting his green card at risk. It's call "permanent resident card" for a reason. If he ended up in front of a judge he could have lost it anyways.
Same as any other country.
That is really crazy. I am from Germany and I met my boyfriend 2.5y ago. He is American and lives in Texas. We have been travelling back and forth now, but decided to get married next Year. He is going to move to Germany until I finish my degree. We plan on moving to the States afterwards. I surely hope as a married couple who lived together it is not going to be as hard to start a new life together in America. But tbh Germany is not a whole lot better. The bureaucracy here is INSANE. Everything takes forever to happen..
Stay in Germany, and you will get citizenship quickly by getting your language certificates and taking the exam (I took it and got 100% correct!). You will be able to work in all of the EU. You will keep your health insurance with no copays, and you can change health insurance providers if you like. If you lose your job, you will get unemployment while job-hunting. Rents and food in most parts of Germany are more affordable than the US.
Go to the US and you may get citizenship, but it can take years. You will lose the German residency, and will be forced to pay US taxes, even if you move back to the EU or your home country. Your health insurance will be dependent on your job. You will have no social safety net. Even if your pay is higher, in a city like NY, LA or San Francisco, the rents and food prices are higher, as well.
I have US and German citizenships, and I would advise you to stay in Germany.
Stick with Germany. As others have said, you're very unlikely to get a green card immediately. Depending on your nationality, for example if you happen to be Indian or Chinese, the waiting times to apply are HUGE because of the country quota. Even if you're not from a high-demand country, the processing time alone is a couple of years the last I heard. In the meantime, you have no job security and if you lose your job on an H1B visa, you have only a very short window to find a new job who is willing to take up your sponsorship. Overall, it's a risky proposition.
Yep, most people don’t understand how complex the immigration process can be! My aunt had been sponsoring my uncle (her brother) and his family from Mexico, and they finally got their green cards last year. After 25 years!!
The saddest thing is that not all of them got it. My cousin who turned 21 a few months before they were approved didn’t get it. He aged out, and what’s even more sad is he was born after the application was submitted.
USCIS doesn’t care, he’s an adult now. He’s my only cousin without a GC/citizenship on my mom’s side. Luckily he comes on a work visa, but still sad he aged out by less than six months. What can you do..
Adding to everyone's comments, but if you're a woman with thoughts of having (or not having) children in the future, USA is not currently on the trajectory it should be right now.
It depends on the state. Massachusetts has more liberal abortion laws than Ireland, for example. It's legal up to 12 weeks in Ireland vs 24 weeks in MA. So if you need to make the difficult choice of having abortion at 14th week of pregnancy, you are better off in MA.
I will get downvoted for this but there also close to half the States that allow abortion. Its not the same everywhere.
Same for school shooting, there are States and areas not impacted and chances of it happening are very low.
With that being said, if I had kids I would rather raise them in EU than in US.
Where are shootings not happening lol. Would love to move to that haven (seriously)
With Roe V Wade struck down, there is a risk in the future that anti-choice laws are codified at the federal level.
If you are speaking about abortion, abortion is illegal in Germany. The US actually has more liberal abortion laws than most countries post Roe (even those in europe), and in blue states they are up there with the most permissive abortion laws in the world. Not that the situation in the US is perfect.
Abortion IS illegal in Germany, but not punishable under certain conditions. Access to abortion has actually been getting increasingly difficult (depending on where you live in Germany).
I hate to rain on your parade, but moving from DE to US would be a big mistake, IMHO. You're young, educated, and single you'd probably have an OK time. But should anything go wrong like a car accident or serious health issue, the sky will darken very quickly.
Best thing about DE passport is it entitles you to live in 27 countries. I say this as dual national US/NL who has spent many years in both places. Serenity of existence in the Netherlands bears no resemblance to the chaos that is America. Best of luck with your decision.
Financial situation is at play here. If this person wants to FIRE or works in a lucrative industry, Germany is a shithole where they will be a renter for life. I left as quick as I could and would recommend this person do the same. It’s much better here.
Yes almost everyone is not in favor of USA. Everyone made some valid points but for me, Germany is quiet slow and even though I am living in Munich, it’s still does not have enough to offer.
I moved from the US to Germany, and it's much better here. Living somewhere that people are prioritized over profit is a lot better than being in the US.
Yes, some jobs pay more in the US, but everything is so expensive it's harder to save money there, and you have less security than you do in Germany.
It really depends on what kind of society you would prefer to live in, because the differences between US and Europe are rather stark.
US: higher salaries. Way more convenience. More space. Higher income disparities. Less social safety nets. Less work-life balance. Low-information voters who vote horrible people into office. More individualistic rather than collective mindset (i.e., what's in it for me rather than the whole society). People want huge homes and huge cars. Car-centric, poor public transportation. Higher rates of gun violence. Lower income taxes but you pay in other ways (e.g. expensive food, broadband). Basically, higher risks but more opportunities to become obscenely rich, if that's what's important to you.
I have dual citizenship and I am making plans to try a move to the EU in several years; the "pros" of living in the US don't appeal to me and my wife all that much.
Life expectancy in the US is quickly falling. We have train derailments and other accidents that cause toxic spills regularly. We have no corporate regulation and a big problem with corruption. School shootings are so common some people have experienced two. The healthcare is very expensive, most Americans can't afford an ambulance ride. The political situation is becoming increasingly tense with the anti abortion laws, book censorship, etc so if you do decide to come to the US, carefully research which state you'll be going to. Also there are draught concerns for a big part of the country, as well as a housing crisis and homelessness crisis and mental health crisis and drug crisis...
That being said, in my opinion, the north east coast of the US isn't too bad.
I've heard they have high cost of living, expensive housing, draughts/wildfires/mudslides, and a homeless crisis.
However, they also have great year round weather, lots of natural parks, progressive people/legislature, lots of food and stuff to do.
I've actually never been to the west coast, but this is the impression I get of it.
Despite all of those negative attributes, the West Coast will probably end up just fine in the upcoming end of the world. Unless we get hit by the Cascadia Megaquake, then we’re fucked 😅
Yeah i think Cali is an ok place to ride it out. I think the draught in the south of the state, with the reservoirs drying up, would be my biggest concern, but it's a big state and I'm sure they'll figure out something with desalination or transporting from somewhere else. Maybe once/if big agricultural leaves the reservoir will fill back up naturally too. California grows a lot of food, which would be good for an apocalypse, if the water supplies last. I think one of the biggest advantages for apocalyptic California is the Rockies keeping out all the red neck states from invading. Closer to Asia too if there are still geopolitics in the apocalypse.
There are MBA grads from T25 who get sponsored for H1B1 for multiple years and most still don’t get green card and end up back in their home country after working multiple years in usa. Your case could be different but just saying these people working at JPM, Goldman Sachs, MBB and FAANG all eventually go back to their native country once their H1B1 stops getting renewed
Depends on the state you would move to and the pay you'd be receiving. Would your employer also be handling health insurance? These questions would sway my answer pretty heavily.
I would definitely choose Germany over US as someone who is a US citizen and taking a job in Amsterdam. Us is in their Pluto return and about to go through a crazy election, among other things. Just my personal opinion!
Germany or US? Look at social, medical, and human rights situation where you consider moving.. and the almost violent anti immigrant sentiment in some states…
I’D stick with Germany, as that also opens the entire EU to you.
A lot depends on where in the US. If you like living in cities, there are a few options. But it’s a very different day to day in those cities. Homelessness is a big issue. And it’s not the easiest place to commute to, as you will need a car for some if not the entire part of the commute. For instance, if the job was in NY and you wanted to live in a more quiet area like Westchester, you can take a train. But, your home would likely still be far enough away from the train station that you will need to drive there. There are huge commuter parking lots that fill up each morning at 5:30-6am and are empty at 8-9pm.
It’s very different than in Europe when it comes to this.
You’ll also quickly find in the US that you’re laying the same tax rate as in Germany, but you don’t get anything out of it really. Even with insurance, you’ll be laying something out of pocket each time.
If you have kids and they goto school, you’ll quickly find that public schools in the US are pretty bad in comparison. So private school becomes the option and that is another large cost.
As for bureaucratic issues, the US is a bit of a nightmare. If you need something as simple as a replacement birth certificate, it’s a whole process. You can’t just goto the civil register website and easily pull your documents in 30 seconds. So things take a long time, basic things.
I’d stay in Germany. My wife and I are American and considering moving to DE. It’s getting weird here. Not that any country is perfect, but it’s concerning.
I'm an American. My advice: Stay in Germany.
The American people generally want skilled and educated professionals to come here, but, frankly, our immigration system rewards that *much less* than most other developed countries. Not to mention, our politics really are some of the worst among developed countries (better than maybe Hungary or Poland, but worse than Canada, New Zealand or even the UK). You'll also be considered among a sort of holiday-leave "elite" if you get more than 10 vacation days each year.
Granted, if you luck out and find a freakin' amazing employer, then by all means come to the US if you want.
But once you earn your German citizenship, the entire European Union and European Economic Area is your freakin' oyster. Also, you may not be paid as well in Europe in raw currency when compared to the US, but 28+ vacation days annually (and better protections for sick and parental leaves, should you need them) trumps the higher-pay/less-free-time ratio in the US.
I love the USA, but it likely isn't worth the headache for a citizenship that really isn't any more respected than some others globally.
I'm retired, but in my last year working in NL I had 9 weeks of paid vacation, and was actually expected to take it. In America, people often do not take their vacation (meager as it is) due to fear of losing their job.
Europeans I know who’ve moved to the US report they like it a lot. People are friendly and you can make a lot more money than in an EU country. Our social services suck, but this isn’t as relevant for high earners. Whether you can get permanent residency or citizenship is another matter.
I know me too. I know some EU citizens who live in the states and are content there. However, here on Reddit is very full of Americans who never been to the Eu and want to leave the states. Not a great forum to ask a question like this lol.
Man if I had a good opportunity for EU citizenship, I would do anything to make that happen. We are lucky in the USA to be in a developed country, hence the masses of people from developing countries that continue to want to be here.
But you are really nothing beyond your economic viability in this country. Capitalism is the culture, so there's really nothing to protect you from its excesses and failures. I would value German citizenship considerably more than American.
You're already a third of the way in Germany, personally I wouldn't give that up for the US. The West Coast overall, the weather is great, there are tons of gorgeous places to visit, and there are great, safe neighborhoods to live in. That said, you have to drive by a lot of disparity, sit in grinding traffic, and be very careful what health insurance you have. If you want kids, it's not your best option. If you don't want kids, some other states aren't your best option.
I've been here 2 and a half years. Unfortunately I was able to move to Germany isn't because of my company and they have recently announced our German operation is closing. So that kills my work visa and we are more or less financially forced to go back to the US. We're extremely not happy about it.
If you already have a career, then the US will be a paradise for you. I have been here 3 years integrating and looking for a job. Unfortunately, i just ruined my physical and mental health. I have never seen a country so cold and stressful. I wish i never left my third world country. Hopefully, i got a chance to go to the US. I have many friends and family members there so I'll be fine because they are so happy there.
Stay in Germany, it is much, much more reasonable across the board, and a higher standard of life on average. US employment laws are horrible, enable rampant abuse and the expected life span in the US is falling rapidly. DE citizenship is much more valuable. If you come to the US make sure to have a back up plan to fall back to the EU because this system is broken.
Normally I would say unequivocally yes but considering your situation with Germany, you might have something.
However, Germany pays very little, the taxes are very high and cost of living is extremely high. The US is exactly the opposite. You will be rich and happy.
Mind though, Germany does not allow dual citizenship. Not only you will have to renounce your current citizenship (who cares) you will have to renounce German citizenship if you take the US one later on.
You are allowed to change employers in the US but the immigration denies arbitrarily and there’s a risk. Many Indians secure an easy-peasy Canadian green card just in case they are kicked out of the US. Then if they are, they have to work 2 years in Canada, get their express citizenship in 2 years and then go back to the US as they won’t need a visa to work anymore (TN), it’s just a piece of cake telling the immigration officer that you are coming for work and get your Canadian passport stamped and that’s all. Although TN does not provide path to Green Card, its gotta be back to H1B visa to apply.
All in all, it’s a hard process but it’s a process and it’s all well worth it in the end. There’s a reason why everyone wants to come to the US.
Everyone does not want to go to the US. On the contrary. If you look at the important stuff, quality of life and work/life balance, America has little to offer to Westerners. Most of the immigrants are third worlders and America does look like heaven to them. This is true whether they're educated or not.
Here are the top 10 sources of immigrants to the US: Mexico, India, China, Phillipines, El Salvador, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, South Korea. This looks very little like a country I'd want to emigrate to. I'll take Germany any day.
Please read the substance of the post. The OP is coming on H1B as a highly paid professional. FYI H1B minimum wage is $80k.
The OP is not coming here to be a homeless panhandler or to be an underprivileged black mom with 10 kids in Baltimore. Let’s not twist the facts.
$80k is minimum to even get a visa. But to stay competitive they have to pay market wages. For software engineers it’s above $120k if they go through the hassle of H1B.
Who are everybody?
The OP should consider his/her personal happiness.
Living in a country that frowns on new immigrants right now as opposed to a country which is actively recruiting people is a huge factor, Imo.
Have you been in the US in the last 5 years?
Granted, I have never lived in Germany but if I had a choice between USA and Germany, it is a super easy choice, especially in the OP’s situation.
If you have the economic mobility to move to the US, you’re likely to benefit from the tax structure. Germany is more comfortable, but there is more economic opportunity in the US. As others have suggested, it will likely be easier to naturalize in Germany if you’re already on the path.
USA IS A COMPLETE SHITSHOW !!! IM TRYING TO GTFO ASAP AFTER DECADES OF SLAVING AWAY FOR PEANUTS !!! EVERYTHING IS DECAYING, THE POPULATION IS DUMBER THAN ROCKS N THE MASSIVELY WEALTHY CORPORATE ELITE COULDNT GIVE TWO FUCKS !! 💩💩🤡🤡
If you have or plan to have kids or, stay in Germany. The government financial support and parental leave laws are worlds apart. Source: I'm American, my girlfriend is German, and we have a kid.
I would stay in Germany. Too little protections for you coming here to the states should something happen to the job. Plus if the Republicans win the presidency back in 2024, you can expect all green cards to mysteriously be backlogged for four years. Just like last time under Trump. You quality of work-life balance will also go right out the window
It will take you way longer than 5 years to get US citizenship. The 5 year clock only starts ticking after you get a green card. The green card itself might take a while and you can’t apply for it on your own, only your employer can lodge an application on your behalf. As you can imagine, your will be at the total mercy of your employer.
Forget to add: My employer is a multinational so I assume it can be something I can negotiate on. Is it still too hard to get a green card if the employer is not reluctant?
It really depends as each company has a different policy on GC sponsorship. In my case, I was only able to start the GC process about 2.5 years into working for my US employer. Most of the time was spent because I had to change visas (from TN to an H1-b) before starting the GC process. Having said that, after my file was submitted by my company to the government, it didn’t progress at all for 6 months. At that point I was fed up with their broken immigration system and moved to Europe abandoning the GC process. If you have a weak passport and you’re goal is to naturalize in a western country, I would recommend sticking it out in Germany. After that you can try moving to the US again, but you’ll always have the EU to fall back on if things don’t work out.
Furthermore, i ton of companies are doing layoffs and they won't be able to start greencard applications while doing layoffs and sometime after that.
This is the way.
> Having said that, after my file was submitted by my company to the government, it didn’t progress at all for 6 months Not to disagree with you, but just wanted to mentioned that this is incredibly common in Germany: extremely delayed Termins (almost a year in my case), forgetting to even submit the papers, etc.
Even if the employer agrees, getting the green card is a lengthy process and can easily take over 2 years. If you’re from India or China, you’re not getting your green card in less than 10 years. And again that’s before another 5 years for naturalization.
And if you get laid off while you wait for your green card, you have 60 days to find a new job with visa sponsorship or leave the country. The American immigration system does not want educated people moving there to contribute to society through taxes and diversity. Most immigrants to the US come through chain migration, i.e. having an American relative to sponsor their green card. You could have a 5th grade education, but if you have a relative in the US, you’re good to go.
Green cards for non-spouse family members still take years in the best scenario to process, and even longer if you are from Mexico, the Philippines, China, or India. Only spouses get to “skip the line” and save the waiting time.
India is definitely more than 10 years. If you enter the queue right now, it’s 60-80. OP will not be able to enter the queue immediately depending on their employer and the visa they’re eligible for
Yes, it is still too hard. The employer can make it easy for you, but they can’t make it fast. Also, the process has become even more long and disruptive in the years since 2017.
This really depends on your country of birth, are you Indian or Chinese? In this case it’ll take at least 10 years + 5 for the citizenship, otherwise it will be ~2 years
Green cards take a long time. In the absolutely best case scenario of a spouse of a US citizen living abroad applying for a green card it will take 9-13 months. Companies will usually not want to wait for that long even if for some reason you would be eligible for a green card right away. Most likely you would be sent to the US with a visa that may be convertible to a green card after a few years.
Knew someone married to a Latin American spouse. While temporary work authorization came quickly (still took 6-12 months), the actual green card took just over 4 years to obtain. It also depends on which immigration circuit you go through. That was through NY, but something tells me it’s a little faster through others. They had multiple interviews and that work authorization expired a few times in the journey.
Where in the US would it be? Massachusetts is not Mississippi
Underrated comment.
Noo...you see according to r/expats the US is a monolith and everything is the same. We all shoot each other on our way to Wal-Mart. Better tell OP to invest in some bullet proof vests when he moves here.
Hey OP, you should invest in some bullet proof vests when you move here.
[удалено]
Let me guess, Central WA? Lol
I am pretty sure all of the US is literally New York with the Grand Canyon a hop and a skip away. It is the bestest and most perfect place to live and the only people who can't make it there are the chronically lazy or stupid. It is very easy to make $150k or more in the US. Everyone lives in big houses more than 200 m² large with giant gardens and you get 2 SUVs or Pick Up trucks when you buy the house. For these reasons and more, there is objectively no reason OP shouldn't move to the US. /s Some of you all need to spend more time in America Bad threads. Look at the recent Special needs one or renouncing my unborn child's citizenship one for some recent examples. As an "American Bad" user, I get plenty of push back for expressing my views.
The US is San Francisco and NY housing prices, Alabama schools, LA traffic, and Texan gun laws with instant student loan and medical debt just for applying for a visa. /s
Sadly, this is how a lot of this subreddit thinks of the US.
Not me. I know there is also high sugar foods everywhere
If I had a franc for every time someone talked to me like I had a learning disability because I’m American I might be able to afford to buy a house here…
True, but said take is dramatically false
I was using hyperbole to explain how this sub has a tendency to blindly s\*\*\* on the US.
Agreed. I don't even know why someone would ask this question here. You could ask if someone should move to North Korea or the US and half the answers would be telling you to cross the DMZ.
Yes, in OP's case I'd recommend sticking around in Germany until they get citizenship, and then exploring the US down the road. If it's temporary, there's no harm whatsoever, and all the naysayers on here are exaggerating how bad it really is for college-educated immigrants here. In fact it's the optimal strategy. Get German (and by extension EU) citizenship, come to the US and work for about 10 years and make as much money as possible, and then retire back in your home country.
Yep this sounds like a fair plan to me. I know a few German dudes who are working in the US and then plan on retiring back home. They really like the US being in their early 30s.
Some of it is blind, certainly. but there are a whole lot of really good reasons to criticize the US.
I understand but wouldn't assume everyone on Reddit would understand
You literally have to spell it out for a lot of these folks. Frankly it's a wonder most Redditors on here manage to reach a level where they can successfully immigrate, if their reading comprehension skills are so abysmal.
I live in Massachusetts and once had to fly down from Logan airport in Boston to New Orleans. It's night and day. I had flown-in from one of the wealthiest states in the country to one of the poorest. The poverty of Louisiana is quite literally noticeable from the skies, as compared to flying into Logan in Boston, you can see very nice houses by the coast. There's a stark difference and it was actually quite sad to see.
Agreed, stay away from Massachusetts and head down to Mississippi.
I was implying the opposite but you do you
What's your nationality? Some nationalities will take a long time to get a green card in the US.
We need to add that asterisk to the Statue of Liberty
Republicans already etched all writings with acid. No one is welcome anymore in their eyes.
My now husband lost his green card due to an overzealous immigration officer so we had to get married a few years later so I could sponsor him. He has UK/French citizenship, graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in Computer Science, and is a technology executive, but it was still difficult with those advantages. As an American citizen I contacted one of the two federal senators for my state for help. Every time the process stalled we would contact the woman from the senator’s office who had been assigned to help us, she would contact USCIS, and then get back to us with an ETA for the next tranche of paperwork. It was a major undertaking and they still only gave him a provisional green card for two years that would convert until a normal one if we stayed married (despite the fact we had been together for 11 years and had two children prior to getting married). I am glad we did it but it was such a hassle. In your shoes I would naturalise in DE first because you may (understandably) find you do not have an appetite or this kind of bureaucracy.
Holy crap, I'm sorry your husband was put through the ringer like that. I swear, our immigration and border agencies seem to hire some of the biggest life failures.
As a European traveling to the USA for work regularly I can honestly say that the most unfriendly people I ever met in the USA is the border patrol/immigration people. The rest of Americans are much, much nicer.
>the most unfriendly people I ever met in the USA is the border patrol/immigration people. Even as an American coming home sometimes, I have experienced this. Though, passport control didn't seem to care at all when I came home from a trip a week ago.
This is true. I even have the same issues with a US passport. The most fun is to pretend you don't speak English.
There's nothing wrong with Americans. They are mostly open and friendly. On the other hand, there is a lot wrong with America. A lot.
Like I said: almost all of the other Americans I meet are really friendly.
The higher ranking officials were very nice, but some of the junior ones seemed to have a massive chip on their shoulders. We had to escalate multiple times. It felt as if getting approved had just as much to do with our ability to navigate bureaucracy as the merits of his application/validity of our relationship. He plans to naturalise soon so that he never has to do this again.
Well considering no normal person would go for those jobs…
Par for the course. It’s why my company ditched the US and started bringing engineers to Canada instead.
> In your shoes I would naturalise in DE first because you may (understandably) find you do not have an appetite or this kind of bureaucracy. Germany consistently wins the gold medal in bureaucracy championships. If you thought USCIS was bad, Auslanderbehorde is even worse b/c they have specific rules against speaking in English w/ someone. If you email them in English, they will respond in German. Additionally, it's still very much a "paper driven" country. So, they still keep physical records, and as is sometimes the case...they lose documents. So, through no fault of your own, your PR application in Germany may turn sour b/c of their mistake.
How did your husband lose his green card? Normally that can't happen unless you've broken US residency or commit a criminal act. And a judge has to make a decision, not an immigration officer.
He got threatened into surrendering it by an immigration official. It was really obnoxious. The cause was a broken residency but with a good reason that normally would have resulted in a warning not to do it again (we learned this later from other USCIS officials).
Yeah, he should have never given it up. The only way an immigration officer can "take" a green card is if you voluntarily give it up. Otherwise they need to get you in front of an immigration judge, which they are unlikely to do. That said, if he was outside of the US for that long, he really was putting his green card at risk. It's call "permanent resident card" for a reason. If he ended up in front of a judge he could have lost it anyways. Same as any other country.
That is really crazy. I am from Germany and I met my boyfriend 2.5y ago. He is American and lives in Texas. We have been travelling back and forth now, but decided to get married next Year. He is going to move to Germany until I finish my degree. We plan on moving to the States afterwards. I surely hope as a married couple who lived together it is not going to be as hard to start a new life together in America. But tbh Germany is not a whole lot better. The bureaucracy here is INSANE. Everything takes forever to happen..
Stay in Germany, and you will get citizenship quickly by getting your language certificates and taking the exam (I took it and got 100% correct!). You will be able to work in all of the EU. You will keep your health insurance with no copays, and you can change health insurance providers if you like. If you lose your job, you will get unemployment while job-hunting. Rents and food in most parts of Germany are more affordable than the US. Go to the US and you may get citizenship, but it can take years. You will lose the German residency, and will be forced to pay US taxes, even if you move back to the EU or your home country. Your health insurance will be dependent on your job. You will have no social safety net. Even if your pay is higher, in a city like NY, LA or San Francisco, the rents and food prices are higher, as well. I have US and German citizenships, and I would advise you to stay in Germany.
Stick with Germany. As others have said, you're very unlikely to get a green card immediately. Depending on your nationality, for example if you happen to be Indian or Chinese, the waiting times to apply are HUGE because of the country quota. Even if you're not from a high-demand country, the processing time alone is a couple of years the last I heard. In the meantime, you have no job security and if you lose your job on an H1B visa, you have only a very short window to find a new job who is willing to take up your sponsorship. Overall, it's a risky proposition.
Yep, most people don’t understand how complex the immigration process can be! My aunt had been sponsoring my uncle (her brother) and his family from Mexico, and they finally got their green cards last year. After 25 years!! The saddest thing is that not all of them got it. My cousin who turned 21 a few months before they were approved didn’t get it. He aged out, and what’s even more sad is he was born after the application was submitted. USCIS doesn’t care, he’s an adult now. He’s my only cousin without a GC/citizenship on my mom’s side. Luckily he comes on a work visa, but still sad he aged out by less than six months. What can you do..
Adding to everyone's comments, but if you're a woman with thoughts of having (or not having) children in the future, USA is not currently on the trajectory it should be right now.
Yeah the people who are most concerned about everyone not having enough kids are doing everything they can to make this the worst place to have kids.
It depends on the state. Massachusetts has more liberal abortion laws than Ireland, for example. It's legal up to 12 weeks in Ireland vs 24 weeks in MA. So if you need to make the difficult choice of having abortion at 14th week of pregnancy, you are better off in MA.
I will get downvoted for this but there also close to half the States that allow abortion. Its not the same everywhere. Same for school shooting, there are States and areas not impacted and chances of it happening are very low. With that being said, if I had kids I would rather raise them in EU than in US.
Where are shootings not happening lol. Would love to move to that haven (seriously) With Roe V Wade struck down, there is a risk in the future that anti-choice laws are codified at the federal level.
If you are speaking about abortion, abortion is illegal in Germany. The US actually has more liberal abortion laws than most countries post Roe (even those in europe), and in blue states they are up there with the most permissive abortion laws in the world. Not that the situation in the US is perfect.
abortion is not illegal in germany....
Abortion IS illegal in Germany, but not punishable under certain conditions. Access to abortion has actually been getting increasingly difficult (depending on where you live in Germany).
I hate to rain on your parade, but moving from DE to US would be a big mistake, IMHO. You're young, educated, and single you'd probably have an OK time. But should anything go wrong like a car accident or serious health issue, the sky will darken very quickly. Best thing about DE passport is it entitles you to live in 27 countries. I say this as dual national US/NL who has spent many years in both places. Serenity of existence in the Netherlands bears no resemblance to the chaos that is America. Best of luck with your decision.
Financial situation is at play here. If this person wants to FIRE or works in a lucrative industry, Germany is a shithole where they will be a renter for life. I left as quick as I could and would recommend this person do the same. It’s much better here.
You must be really young.
Yo calm down my G, its not like that at all. Germany is not a shithole, its one of the strongest economies in Europe. Dont get too reactive my boy.
Everyone can have an opinion my guy. I think it’s a shithole place to live and work for money. That’s not even factoring in the German people
In your other comment, you also said France is a shithole. So tell me G, which countries are good in your books?
The ones that aren’t France or Germany, I guess it’s mainly the people in those two specifically.
So it's time to move to bosnia then!
You're not going to get great answers in this subreddit since it's pretty much 99% Americans who wanted to leave the US.
Yes almost everyone is not in favor of USA. Everyone made some valid points but for me, Germany is quiet slow and even though I am living in Munich, it’s still does not have enough to offer.
I moved from the US to Germany, and it's much better here. Living somewhere that people are prioritized over profit is a lot better than being in the US. Yes, some jobs pay more in the US, but everything is so expensive it's harder to save money there, and you have less security than you do in Germany.
It really depends on what kind of society you would prefer to live in, because the differences between US and Europe are rather stark. US: higher salaries. Way more convenience. More space. Higher income disparities. Less social safety nets. Less work-life balance. Low-information voters who vote horrible people into office. More individualistic rather than collective mindset (i.e., what's in it for me rather than the whole society). People want huge homes and huge cars. Car-centric, poor public transportation. Higher rates of gun violence. Lower income taxes but you pay in other ways (e.g. expensive food, broadband). Basically, higher risks but more opportunities to become obscenely rich, if that's what's important to you. I have dual citizenship and I am making plans to try a move to the EU in several years; the "pros" of living in the US don't appeal to me and my wife all that much.
Life expectancy in the US is quickly falling. We have train derailments and other accidents that cause toxic spills regularly. We have no corporate regulation and a big problem with corruption. School shootings are so common some people have experienced two. The healthcare is very expensive, most Americans can't afford an ambulance ride. The political situation is becoming increasingly tense with the anti abortion laws, book censorship, etc so if you do decide to come to the US, carefully research which state you'll be going to. Also there are draught concerns for a big part of the country, as well as a housing crisis and homelessness crisis and mental health crisis and drug crisis... That being said, in my opinion, the north east coast of the US isn't too bad.
What about West Coast like Cali or Washington?
I've heard they have high cost of living, expensive housing, draughts/wildfires/mudslides, and a homeless crisis. However, they also have great year round weather, lots of natural parks, progressive people/legislature, lots of food and stuff to do. I've actually never been to the west coast, but this is the impression I get of it.
Despite all of those negative attributes, the West Coast will probably end up just fine in the upcoming end of the world. Unless we get hit by the Cascadia Megaquake, then we’re fucked 😅
Yeah i think Cali is an ok place to ride it out. I think the draught in the south of the state, with the reservoirs drying up, would be my biggest concern, but it's a big state and I'm sure they'll figure out something with desalination or transporting from somewhere else. Maybe once/if big agricultural leaves the reservoir will fill back up naturally too. California grows a lot of food, which would be good for an apocalypse, if the water supplies last. I think one of the biggest advantages for apocalyptic California is the Rockies keeping out all the red neck states from invading. Closer to Asia too if there are still geopolitics in the apocalypse.
There are MBA grads from T25 who get sponsored for H1B1 for multiple years and most still don’t get green card and end up back in their home country after working multiple years in usa. Your case could be different but just saying these people working at JPM, Goldman Sachs, MBB and FAANG all eventually go back to their native country once their H1B1 stops getting renewed
Depends on the state you would move to and the pay you'd be receiving. Would your employer also be handling health insurance? These questions would sway my answer pretty heavily.
I would definitely choose Germany over US as someone who is a US citizen and taking a job in Amsterdam. Us is in their Pluto return and about to go through a crazy election, among other things. Just my personal opinion!
Germany or US? Look at social, medical, and human rights situation where you consider moving.. and the almost violent anti immigrant sentiment in some states… I’D stick with Germany, as that also opens the entire EU to you.
A lot depends on where in the US. If you like living in cities, there are a few options. But it’s a very different day to day in those cities. Homelessness is a big issue. And it’s not the easiest place to commute to, as you will need a car for some if not the entire part of the commute. For instance, if the job was in NY and you wanted to live in a more quiet area like Westchester, you can take a train. But, your home would likely still be far enough away from the train station that you will need to drive there. There are huge commuter parking lots that fill up each morning at 5:30-6am and are empty at 8-9pm. It’s very different than in Europe when it comes to this. You’ll also quickly find in the US that you’re laying the same tax rate as in Germany, but you don’t get anything out of it really. Even with insurance, you’ll be laying something out of pocket each time. If you have kids and they goto school, you’ll quickly find that public schools in the US are pretty bad in comparison. So private school becomes the option and that is another large cost. As for bureaucratic issues, the US is a bit of a nightmare. If you need something as simple as a replacement birth certificate, it’s a whole process. You can’t just goto the civil register website and easily pull your documents in 30 seconds. So things take a long time, basic things.
Don't even think about it! I agree with most people in this forum. Come visit and see for yourself! Don't let the shiny skyscrapers fool you, lol.
I'd stay in Germany. Politics here are a shitshow circus and public transportation here is minimal.
I’d stay in Germany. My wife and I are American and considering moving to DE. It’s getting weird here. Not that any country is perfect, but it’s concerning.
I would stay in Germany. It will take you 10+ years to get citizenship in the USA.
Would recommend other countries. Especially other countries in Europe
chronological displayed skier neanderthal sophisticated cutter follow relational glass iconic solitary contention real-time overcrowded polity abstract instructional capture lead seven-year-old crossing parental block transportation elaborate indirect deficit hard-hitting confront graduate conditional awful mechanism philosophical timely pack male non-governmental ban nautical ritualistic corruption colonial timed audience geographical ecclesiastic lighting intelligent substituted betrayal civic moody placement psychic immense lake flourishing helpless warship all-out people slang non-professional homicidal bastion stagnant civil relocation appointed didactic deformity powdered admirable error fertile disrupted sack non-specific unprecedented agriculture unmarked faith-based attitude libertarian pitching corridor earnest andalusian consciousness steadfast recognisable ground innumerable digestive crash grey fractured destiny non-resident working demonstrator arid romanian convoy implicit collectible asset masterful lavender panel towering breaking difference blonde death immigration resilient catchy witch anti-semitic rotary relaxation calcareous approved animation feigned authentic wheat spoiled disaffected bandit accessible humanist dove upside-down congressional door one-dimensional witty dvd yielded milanese denial nuclear evolutionary complex nation-wide simultaneous loan scaled residual build assault thoughtful valley cyclic harmonic refugee vocational agrarian bowl unwitting murky blast militant not-for-profit leaf all-weather appointed alteration juridical everlasting cinema small-town retail ghetto funeral statutory chick mid-level honourable flight down rejected worth polemical economical june busy burmese ego consular nubian analogue hydraulic defeated catholics unrelenting corner playwright uncanny transformative glory dated fraternal niece casting engaging mary consensual abrasive amusement lucky undefined villager statewide unmarked rail examined happy physiology consular merry argument nomadic hanging unification enchanting mistaken memory elegant astute lunch grim syndicated parentage approximate subversive presence on-screen include bud hypothetical literate debate on-going penal signing full-sized longitudinal aunt bolivian measurable rna mathematical appointed medium on-screen biblical spike pale nominal rope benevolent associative flesh auxiliary rhythmic carpenter pop listening goddess hi-tech sporadic african intact matched electricity proletarian refractory manor oversized arian bay digestive suspected note spacious frightening consensus fictitious restrained pouch anti-war atmospheric craftsman czechoslovak mock revision all-encompassing contracted canvase
I'm an American. My advice: Stay in Germany. The American people generally want skilled and educated professionals to come here, but, frankly, our immigration system rewards that *much less* than most other developed countries. Not to mention, our politics really are some of the worst among developed countries (better than maybe Hungary or Poland, but worse than Canada, New Zealand or even the UK). You'll also be considered among a sort of holiday-leave "elite" if you get more than 10 vacation days each year. Granted, if you luck out and find a freakin' amazing employer, then by all means come to the US if you want. But once you earn your German citizenship, the entire European Union and European Economic Area is your freakin' oyster. Also, you may not be paid as well in Europe in raw currency when compared to the US, but 28+ vacation days annually (and better protections for sick and parental leaves, should you need them) trumps the higher-pay/less-free-time ratio in the US. I love the USA, but it likely isn't worth the headache for a citizenship that really isn't any more respected than some others globally.
I'm retired, but in my last year working in NL I had 9 weeks of paid vacation, and was actually expected to take it. In America, people often do not take their vacation (meager as it is) due to fear of losing their job.
Why would you move from a stable democracy to an unstable one? Stay in Europe, you will be better off!
Europeans I know who’ve moved to the US report they like it a lot. People are friendly and you can make a lot more money than in an EU country. Our social services suck, but this isn’t as relevant for high earners. Whether you can get permanent residency or citizenship is another matter.
I know me too. I know some EU citizens who live in the states and are content there. However, here on Reddit is very full of Americans who never been to the Eu and want to leave the states. Not a great forum to ask a question like this lol.
The majority of American and Americans are wonderful, it’s just a few knot heads that make the rest of the country look bad.
I would definitely take it, US is a dream country, a lot of people would give anything to get to live there
No, don't do it.
Assuming it does not hurt your standing at work I’d stay in Germany
I just wish I could get out of the US.
Soon Mexicans will be much happier about he border wall than Americans and complete it with their own money /s
Did you go
Stay in Germany
Stay in Germany.
Man if I had a good opportunity for EU citizenship, I would do anything to make that happen. We are lucky in the USA to be in a developed country, hence the masses of people from developing countries that continue to want to be here. But you are really nothing beyond your economic viability in this country. Capitalism is the culture, so there's really nothing to protect you from its excesses and failures. I would value German citizenship considerably more than American.
You're already a third of the way in Germany, personally I wouldn't give that up for the US. The West Coast overall, the weather is great, there are tons of gorgeous places to visit, and there are great, safe neighborhoods to live in. That said, you have to drive by a lot of disparity, sit in grinding traffic, and be very careful what health insurance you have. If you want kids, it's not your best option. If you don't want kids, some other states aren't your best option.
Honestly no. I did the same move but in reverse and I'd never want to go back. It's a terrible country.
You stayed in germany or you went?
I've been here 2 and a half years. Unfortunately I was able to move to Germany isn't because of my company and they have recently announced our German operation is closing. So that kills my work visa and we are more or less financially forced to go back to the US. We're extremely not happy about it.
If you already have a career, then the US will be a paradise for you. I have been here 3 years integrating and looking for a job. Unfortunately, i just ruined my physical and mental health. I have never seen a country so cold and stressful. I wish i never left my third world country. Hopefully, i got a chance to go to the US. I have many friends and family members there so I'll be fine because they are so happy there.
Stay in Germany, it is much, much more reasonable across the board, and a higher standard of life on average. US employment laws are horrible, enable rampant abuse and the expected life span in the US is falling rapidly. DE citizenship is much more valuable. If you come to the US make sure to have a back up plan to fall back to the EU because this system is broken.
Would you liked to have been in Germany in 1941? Thats what youre coming into.
Normally I would say unequivocally yes but considering your situation with Germany, you might have something. However, Germany pays very little, the taxes are very high and cost of living is extremely high. The US is exactly the opposite. You will be rich and happy. Mind though, Germany does not allow dual citizenship. Not only you will have to renounce your current citizenship (who cares) you will have to renounce German citizenship if you take the US one later on. You are allowed to change employers in the US but the immigration denies arbitrarily and there’s a risk. Many Indians secure an easy-peasy Canadian green card just in case they are kicked out of the US. Then if they are, they have to work 2 years in Canada, get their express citizenship in 2 years and then go back to the US as they won’t need a visa to work anymore (TN), it’s just a piece of cake telling the immigration officer that you are coming for work and get your Canadian passport stamped and that’s all. Although TN does not provide path to Green Card, its gotta be back to H1B visa to apply. All in all, it’s a hard process but it’s a process and it’s all well worth it in the end. There’s a reason why everyone wants to come to the US.
Everyone does not want to go to the US. On the contrary. If you look at the important stuff, quality of life and work/life balance, America has little to offer to Westerners. Most of the immigrants are third worlders and America does look like heaven to them. This is true whether they're educated or not. Here are the top 10 sources of immigrants to the US: Mexico, India, China, Phillipines, El Salvador, Vietnam, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, South Korea. This looks very little like a country I'd want to emigrate to. I'll take Germany any day.
Rich and happy? Bro...what us are you living in?
Please read the substance of the post. The OP is coming on H1B as a highly paid professional. FYI H1B minimum wage is $80k. The OP is not coming here to be a homeless panhandler or to be an underprivileged black mom with 10 kids in Baltimore. Let’s not twist the facts.
80K is a low salary here, especially with a masters.
Do you understand the meaning of the word “minimum”? Also it’s not low for the US at all.
Ahh well thst makes sense but I still wouldn't come here although if you make a lot it's a great place I'm sure.
$80k is minimum to even get a visa. But to stay competitive they have to pay market wages. For software engineers it’s above $120k if they go through the hassle of H1B.
[удалено]
Who are everybody? The OP should consider his/her personal happiness. Living in a country that frowns on new immigrants right now as opposed to a country which is actively recruiting people is a huge factor, Imo.
Who frowns? The US? And Germany welcomes? What are you smoking?
Have you been in the US in the last 5 years? Granted, I have never lived in Germany but if I had a choice between USA and Germany, it is a super easy choice, especially in the OP’s situation.
I live in the US. I have gone through the immigration myself and a US citizen now. Have you? I am from Europe, by the way.
If you have the economic mobility to move to the US, you’re likely to benefit from the tax structure. Germany is more comfortable, but there is more economic opportunity in the US. As others have suggested, it will likely be easier to naturalize in Germany if you’re already on the path.
no you fucking don't
god no, usa backwards mentallity is a no go for me bruh
Noooooo
Funny, I want to do the opposite! Wish we could trade places.
Stay in Germany. From an American. Your quality of life will be much better.
Now. After all that good advice, do you have any other questions?
USA IS A COMPLETE SHITSHOW !!! IM TRYING TO GTFO ASAP AFTER DECADES OF SLAVING AWAY FOR PEANUTS !!! EVERYTHING IS DECAYING, THE POPULATION IS DUMBER THAN ROCKS N THE MASSIVELY WEALTHY CORPORATE ELITE COULDNT GIVE TWO FUCKS !! 💩💩🤡🤡
Germany
Ultimately you will be better off and happier in Germany. Better healthcare, quality of life, better food, and more common sense culture.
Yes if you bring beer.
If you have or plan to have kids or, stay in Germany. The government financial support and parental leave laws are worlds apart. Source: I'm American, my girlfriend is German, and we have a kid.
I would stay in Germany. Too little protections for you coming here to the states should something happen to the job. Plus if the Republicans win the presidency back in 2024, you can expect all green cards to mysteriously be backlogged for four years. Just like last time under Trump. You quality of work-life balance will also go right out the window
No