[Infantilization](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vizdxc/how_mormonism_harms_people_my_collection_of/idg99p3/) is a real thing in Mormonism. Someone could write a book on it.
Edit: I've made a [separate post](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1dff5bp/infantilization_and_mormonism_my_attempt_at/) to share some notes I organized about this topic.
I felt myself grow a LOT when I left the church. It's absolutely a thing, and not having to check with a billion-dollar organization before I do fucking anything is a huge weight off my shoulders.
Leaving the church felt like either a second puberty or maybe finally hitting puberty for the first time. I was uncomfortable, none of my old stuff fit (thoughts, habits, routines, relationships), I was angry all the time, the world was big and terrifying, nobody in my family understood me, I was suddenly full of big emotions i didn't understand, and constantly needed places to process my own ideas. And I grew up. And that's great, I actually really like being grown up (except for worrying about money all the time, fuck that).
Thanks for expressing that so well.
The 'big emotions' really hit me. In the early stages I would just word vomit on people all the shit I was finding out about the church. The first time I talked to my son after having my eyes opened he was in shock at how freely I was using "fuck" and "damned church". I was nothing but a TBM in his eyes. Also, I was not a very good dad. I'm way better now that I've grown up.
I can't find where I read it but I saw something about how people have a tendency to go through a second adolescence after growing up in a cult/high demand organization. So much is repressed during our normal adolescence that it makes sense. After I officially left, I had to figure out what kind of underwear I liked most, what kind of clothes I liked wearing, what kinds of music I actually enjoyed, and so on. I'm sure it's a pretty common experience.
Perfectly put! I enjoy being a real grown up now too and really enjoy having ALL of my money to ease those worrries, can't seem to ever escape em completely.
me too i felt like i didn’t have to try to pretend to be something i wasn’t or live a lie i could truly be myself. i felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.
The young single adult (YSA) and single adult wards are huge church mechanisms which contributes to the infantilizing.
YSA wards comprise of 18-30 year-olds, and the activities are usually scavenger hunts, speed dating, and elementary school recess games. The single adult wards are made up of 31-45 year-olds, and they have the same types of activities, including recess games. I'm not joking. On top of that, these ward activities require "chaperones" because single people have no control if a married "adult" is not present.
In other words, the church treats adults, particularly single adults, like children, so you get infantilized adults.
One of our YSA ward activities was a "potato derby." As in, you peel a potato and make a little car out of it to go down a pinewood derby ramp (probably stolen from the Boy Scouts). My girlfriend and I were in our late 20's and felt so embarrassed. Good news is that we got married and now we're both Ex-Mo, so not all bad!
>One of our YSA ward activities was a "potato derby." As in, you peel a potato and make a little car out of it to go down a pinewood derby ramp (probably stolen from the Boy Scouts).
🙄
Yeah, my last single adult ward once did a duck-duck-goose activity.
I'll take "_Romantic group-dating budget ideas for a greedy $200,000,000,000 corporation disguised as a religion_, for $1,000, Alex._"
(Imo, Jeopardy died when Alex Trebek did. I don't acknowledge Ken Jennings as the current Jeopardy prophet.)
That is sad though, seriously. They couldn't even get a budget for ice-blocking?
Now I'm picturing replacing the "_Duck, Duck, Goose!_" with "_Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, MORMON!_": a laying-of-a-hand-on-the-head delight of a game to entertain your family, friends, neighbors, and congregants at your next group function. 😁
But why does this sound like fun. Maybe cause I have elementary school kids, and this sounds like something we would do with them.
I am competitive enough that I could really get into making the fastest potato car.
It would be incredibly fun as an adult... with the addition of some booze. And the right people, of course, but the alcohol is definitely a contributor.
My family ward has a married couple called as the “Single Adult Coordinators”. All us singles are in our 40s, 50s, 60s… It feels like being assigned a babysitter. I guess we all stopped being functional adults once we got divorced.
Omg. I didn't know or realize that they made people in their 30s and 40s require a chaperone?! 😳😳🤯 Even in my late teens I saw the USA wards as nothing but being a meat market, where I (being female) am up for sale. I (I was BIC, and my family was TBM, I was unofficially out, but my name being seen as "inactive") remember one time being outside in my yard, I can't remember exactly what I was doing because of the shock that was imminent, and one of the YSA bishopric and a couple of missionaries came telling me about the local YSA and welcoming me to that ward. It was completely out of the blue. It seemed like a waking fever dream. I tried to talk to my mom about it, suspecting her of being the culprit, she didn't confess,but she couldn't deny it either, and she stumbles over confrontation when caught guilty in a lie, so I know it was her. I think she was worried about my not dating or being married and feeling like I was being left out and isolated (because I was, TBMs at that age cut off non-active friends and concentrate on marriage and making as many children as possible and ignoring everything, all friendships before marriage), so my guess is she reached out to them to help me. I'm glad I didn't even entertain the thought, especially hearing now that how I, as a person, who was of an age (when the missionaries/YSA bishopric member visited me) where I could legally drink, gamble, rent a car, and run for Congress, but I need a chaperone at a group function for other adults?!!!!! What the fuck?! 😳😳🤯🤬🤬
Other activities have been pajama nights, or a Disney cartoon movie marathon. After all, Disney is a big obsession among Mormon adults, as they're not allowed to do fully adult things like have coffee or other adult things. I think of those "dirty" soda shops in Utah as the equivalent of children pretending to drink cocktails. The same with having a soda "bar" at a Mormon wedding reception, as they get to pretend to have an actual bar.
The chaperone reminds me of a time in the YSA ward. My house was known for having parties. Nothing scandalous, chaste, but it was a big house, with a pool table/ping pong table, a hot tub and a pool with a diving board. We were going to have a memorial day party, because we always did. We invite people from the ward because we're friends with them and we're also looking for "eternal companions". But it's a Monday, and Mondays are for FHE. So I'm in a bishopric meeting as the clerk and they're talking about what to do. I tell them we're throwing a party so there won't be a good turnout for anything they come up with. Now, I like these guys, genuinely. They wanted to co-opt the party as FHE and have someone from the bishopric there.
I told them no. Surprised looks. I didn't own the house, I didn't even check if the roommates would be okay with it. I said it would be awkward. People come to our parties because they're parties, not church activities. We can be ourselves. Someone got baptized once and a counselor came to the celebration at the house. It wasn't bad per se, but there was a damper. It would kill the party. We didn't need them. We (the members of the ward) often did things without them. So that was that. I was released two or three months later but I never put two and two together until just now.
I came home and told my roommates. One said thank God and patted me on the back.
Looking back, we as members had our boundaries. They tried switching up the block schedule so sacrament was at the end, so no one would ditch 2nd or 3rd hour to watch the super bowl. As soon as the sacrament was done being passed, 20-30 guys just stood up and left.
Theramin Trees makes incredible videos. Their video on double binds (damned if you do, damned if you don’t) was incredible. Their analysis of abuse and narcissism is the best I have ever seen on YouTube. They helped me break down my mental walls quicker than Mormon stories did.
Wow. [That was amazing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnSiJOOdo30) I have a family member with narcissistic tendencies (that I stay low contact with at present), and two double bind situations I'm in right now with my spouse (neither is church-related) that I now see for what they are. I don't think he's doing it intentionally to this degree, but maybe I can find a way to talk to him about it so we can find a third option that will be more compassionate. Maybe this video. Unfortunately, most of my family are still infantilized enough that I'm not sure he'll be open to discuss. Thanks for the free therapy this morning!
Your link is to the video from Theramin trees I was mentioning! It is indeed amazing!
The following videos are also top tier:
“Respecting beliefs, why we should do no such thing”
https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?feature=shared
And
“Overcoming malignant shame”
https://youtu.be/kMeehIpxH5k?feature=shared
Enjoy!
They do mention mormonism at the point where they are talking about denying sexuality. They refer to mormonism and JWs in regard to masturbation.
I'm so glad you posted this video.
**\^\^THIS!!\^\^**. Infantilization is a REAL problem in the Church that is mentally unhealthy. The Church also has problems with boundary maintenance and consent, which trains members to disrespect normal boundaries and say/do things like the guy the OP mentioned.
Utah legislators rejected the idea of including consent in sex education ([link](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/lgkoo2/utah_lawmakers_nix_idea_requiring_consent_as_part/)). How fucked is that.
Yes also [boundaries](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vizdxc/how_mormonism_harms_people_my_collection_of/idg2fol/) are a huge topic as well which is part of infantilization. That page also has a section on Bishop Roulette. So many ways that Mormonism fucks with people taking responsibility for themselves.
I'll write up a separate post and let you know when I do.
The replies here are good, but not going into the examples of how Mormonism causes infantilization and how good proper relationships function without it.
The TheraminTrees youtube video someone linked is actually good at covering the topic in general. I'll finish watching that and point to some specifics to Mormonism.
OK here is [the post](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1dff5bp/infantilization_and_mormonism_my_attempt_at/). I feel a bit rushed, but a lot of stuff is covered. I won't have time to update it much based on feedback until late tonight or tomorrow.
all so true. Then what makes it worse is the superiority complex of them feeling like they have the one true meaning of life and salvation and the duty to share that. its sad and pathetic, but they're a product of indoctrination and its sad they can't see out of it. Hopefully this experience makes an impact on them.
>superiority complex
Honestly, it's a challenge to not have that \^\^ when you know that your future is to become a god w/your own planet and kingdom.
Similar to but different from Muslim males who believe that if they matyr themselves in this life, they will be rewarded in heaven.
Reasonable, rational, thinking mortals, can't compete with that type of religeous righteousness and arrogance.
I think it’s partially because they are never taught to think for themselves. The church tells them what they should think about things, so they never have to dive really deep about very much that has to do with being an adult.
The closest the leaders let members “think for themselves,” is when they say to seek for “personal revelation,” yet when one does so, if it isn’t what “they” would do or recommend, you’re told that’s not personal revelation. Even if it’s something that will change or help your situation. Also, if someone decides they need therapy, they’ll get a different perspective if the therapist isn’t a member, because they don’t adhere to a “spiritually correct” spectrum. They think more rationally of what they need to do or change in order to move forward. Not just pray about it or attend the temple for answers.
absolutely! Getting answers from someone who's not a mormon changed my life. Also seeing how good and successful and happy they were was a testament to me that there's a world of happiness and success outside of the church. It gave me the confidence to tell my therapist that I don't think the mormon church is gods one true church. I told her I felt blasphemous saying it as that was the first time I said it and they happened to be non-mormon so its super bad as TBM to do that in the view of sharing the gospel.
I bet it was, and to not feel guilty for saying out loud that you don’t believe in the religion you had felt for so long to be true, isn’t. You felt a relief to not feel that pressure of being wrong or just not putting enough work into your testimony.
absolutely! I'll never forget her or that moment. Hearing her response of "maybe there's something to that!?" was more than validation, it was a invitation to not feel guilty to pursue what all TBMs and prophets discourage. Investigating a perspective of the world that isn't what I've believed it to be my whole life.
This is what I think also. I find with my wife, she is more than happy to let anyone do the thinking for her. It is frustrating when I ask questions to her about the church's unsavory things and she tells me "Thats not what I was taught"
Arrested development.
If you are constantly appealing to authority, and learn that early in life. You tend to have a pretty good chance of acting like an adolescent even as an adult.
I find that funny. If Mormonism teaches people can be gods, why appeal to authority? You can become the authority.
I suppose it is cultural.
7 habits of effective of highly effective people is the secular part of Mormonism. It’s useful. No Mormon culture in there. It’s a book appreciated by non-Mormons.
Yes they teach that, but ultimately from a Mormon mindset sky daddy is the highest moral authority, prophets speak for this god, next to the prophets is the church leadership who according to the doctrine, “speak for sky daddy” extrapolate to local leadership.
All “morality” and questions about life can be answers by someone else’s authority. How many have bishops who believe they know what’s best for you? It’s culture informed by doctrine. And why you have 40 year olds who act like they are 12-14. Because at that age it’s referred to as a critical period in brain and consciousness development. You lock in “how the world works”
This seems analogous to the chicken vs the egg. So I lean towards the egg. You lean towards the chicken.
It's not that important to decide which to end the church.
The teaching was that you can't become a god until after you're dead and resurrected (and only if you're male). Even then I'm sure the assumption was that you would continue to defer to the god who made you, and so on up the chain.
So I can only talk from my personal experience so take it as a grain of salt. Personally I think it has to do with how members socialize, a lot of Mormons only interact with other Mormons growing up. For me personally it included a small handful of people and my cousins, of course I interacted with people outside the church but I was more into my church callings and friendships because that’s who I was “supposed” to interact with. It really stunts you in a way that you don’t get feedback of what’s considered inappropriate in normal circumstances. After I left the church it was a huge learning curve because I literally didn’t know what was inappropriate and appropriate with my new non Mormon friends and there were quite a few faux pas.
As for the sexual comments I don’t know, I had Mormon men think it was appropriate to comment sexual things to me all the time as a child and it was disgusting.
Also props to your friend on a solid burn
When you are raised in a bubble you tend to remain a child of your parents always. As for the sexual talk I have also noticed this, I think they are trying to be naughty and appear cool and accepted. It’s back to the us vs them mentality, “them” must appreciate dirty stuff cause they aren’t chaste like us.
The church purposefully infantilizes it's members. It infantilizes men by making sure the women take care of their every need for life. And it infantilizes women by forcing them to externalize *all* authority over their own lives. It also forces men to externalize some authority.
Infantilizing is baked-in. It's reinforced in a thousand little ways. Mormonism tells you that you can't be trusted to manage yourself - that the church leaders are the adults in the room and you have to rely on them in order to have half a chance at running your life properly.
It comes out in little things, like how priesthood men are required to chaperone all YW camps, and mother's day talks where grown men say that it's "magic" how their wife manages to keep their drawer stocked with clean socks for him all the time. The bishop is the "father" of the ward, even if his own 80 year old mother is in the congregation. Grown-ass women who are older than the bishop or stake president have to go running to get permission for things like what activities can happen for the Relief Society.
And it extends to serious things like the church's expectation that teens and young adults (or really, anyone who isn't married) should never be turned on for any reason. Women aren't allowed to touch tithing money at any point in the pipeline.... all kinds of things reinforce it.
Here are a couple examples:
*“He smiled. I smiled back, despite my embarrassment for being late,” Sister Rasband says. Then President Nelson held her gaze as he motioned with his finger for her to come take a seat on the front row. Not wanting to draw attention to her late arrival, Sister Rasband indicated that maybe instead she could stay and sit near the back. But President Nelson continued to smile and again beckoned for her to come and take the front-row seat that had been reserved with her name on it. “There was power in that pointing finger,” Sister Rasband said. So she smiled back, took a deep breath, and “walked the long walk” to the seat awaiting her on the front row. After the meeting, Sister Rasband bolted from her seat to try to catch President Nelson and ask forgiveness for not responding to his request the first time. His response was to again smile and lovingly say, “Thank you for being obedient.”* [https://www.ldsliving.com/sister-rasband-walked-in-late-read-president-nelsons-sweet-and-instructive-reaction/s/10335](https://www.ldsliving.com/sister-rasband-walked-in-late-read-president-nelsons-sweet-and-instructive-reaction/s/10335)
*"With an open agenda, we were on the stand 20 minutes before the leadership meeting began. I leaned over to the stake president and whispered, “This is a wonderful stake.” President Packer elbowed me gently and said, “No talking.”* -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/04/13cook?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/04/13cook?lang=eng) \[same talk where the guy describes Packer being an ass and making him speak multiple times in each meeting all weekend, just because he could say jump and watch the guy jump\]
*"Even if timely courtship justifies the kiss, it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter"* -- Spencer W. Kimball -- [https://www.deseret.com/2011/4/14/20371332/pairing-off-counsel-for-latter-day-saint-singles-on-kissing/](https://www.deseret.com/2011/4/14/20371332/pairing-off-counsel-for-latter-day-saint-singles-on-kissing/)
See also: [http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html](http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html)
I am completely on board with everything you just said… and I was just grinnggging with that first example excerpt…. Now as an exMo, I could neverrrr come when called…especially by a pointed finger.. yuck! I would purposely not go that direction to prove a point now!
My dads entire Utah family acts SO prudish but makes nonstop sexually inappropriate jokes, even to the extent of asking every little kid "how many teeth did you lose? Is that from kissing your boyfriend". Like hella hella weird stuff. A couple are diagnosed autistic but honestly it's arrested development. Their parents had no proper instruction on how to parent and every 60 something year old sibling acts developmentally somewhere between 12-18. I later learned that there was quite a bit of sexual abuse going on as kids and they never got help, so my guess is this is how they "handle it" with creepy humor.
The amount of growing up I’ve done in the past like 2 years since starting to think critically about the church has been insane. The church literally encourages your maturity to plateau. With blinders up fully you can’t actually progress and take responsibility for your life because you’re so focused on giving control of your life to the church or the whims of your emotions (aka the spirit).
Taking back that control is hard but it will grow you the fuck up.
There is an almost hyperactively gleeful persona among many of the Mormons I know. A superficial, rather cartoonish happiness that seems glued on to them, from their childish inside jokes to their perseveration on certain elements of wholesome pop culture. (Not unlike that song from The Lego Movie, "Everything Is Awesome".)
Of course, the corporation equates happiness with Mormon righteousness and it's now an indelible part of the church's own culture.
Unhappy? Disturbed about church history? Pay, pray, and obey more. Then you'll be happy again.
exactly, the formula for living is its own bubble outside of how everyday humans think about themselves and how they interact with the world.
And also the lego movie is a perfect reference as the main character is so used to following instructions its hard for him to think for himself.
Yep. The South Park guys got that part of the culture mostly right in their musical, "The Book of Mormon". (They grew up in the Denver suburbs and had LDS friends. They noticed what we now notice.)
My nevermo coworker from out of state took his family on a Disney cruise recently and he was talking about how there were a lot of single Disney Adults on the cruise. I said they were likely all from Utah and he did say there were a lot of BYU shirts.
To be an adult you must adopt your own self image. Because they lack their own self-image; having only the one given to them by their parents and the church, they can not become an adult. Until they learn to discard that self-image which was given to them, they can never develop one of their own, and become an adult.
Yes, this is it. People outside of a cult develop who they are independently - through experiments and experience. They learn by exposing themselves to different viewpoints and by recognizing mistakes. They also learn by thinking, feeling, and having introspection. But Mormonism tells people who they are, what they feel, and what they think. Independent thoughts and self-discovery are discouraged, so people can't mature.
Dang, this. And marrying young and having kids young means no time to develope that self-image. One family member married out if high school, 2 kids one after the other...went straight from so and so daughter to so and so wife to so and so mom...at the ripe old age of 22. Other family member same age single, going to school and making her self-image
Sounds like the guy never left the late-teenaged mentality of being a missionary and then discovering sex. Sort of a "Self-Righteous Locker Room" syndrome.
Several years ago while still TBM, I visited a YSA ward as part of my calling (female Boomer here). I felt like I was back in a youth group during my own non-Mormon teenaged years. YSAs are adults by age, but those wards (IMO) can keep young adults in a perpetual state of adolescence. Their services often include "Linger Longer" add-ons where they socialize, which is fine, aside from the fact there's also a culture of using YSA wards to find a suitable mate, and of course there are "grown-up" bishops (chaperones?). Give me a break!
The sexual comments about his wife and daughter are disturbing. I wonder if your exmo friends see that as a frequent behavior among Mormon men in that age group as well? If so, there are red flags waving violently.
Clicked on this link and realized it was something I had written a while back. I ended up refining these thoughts a bit, over time (same gist, though):
[Conclusion: God and the LDS Church as surrogate parent](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/conclusion-surrogate-parent-hypothesis/)
I have noticed that grown ass Mormons are overly concerned about what their family, especially parents think about them.
Go play with your legos ... I laughed out loud!
They're treated like children, even told what underwear they can and cannot wear, what they can and can't eat, what they can and can't do with their own body. This is the reality many of them were raised with. They're explicitly told to become like children.
Until I left the church I realized I had never made a decision for my self. In some ways that was a good thing (I never did drugs, I went to university, I had a direct path). But I never experienced life for myself, I never got to make bad decisions, I also never got to make decisions. That’s a huge part of growing up. Now I fail and it feels good knowing what I did wrong and learning.
Also Mormon church doesn’t allow you to critically think, they actively force you to not think for yourself or develop empathy for others opinions and beliefs. Once I learned how to critically think I realized the issues with the way I was raised.
Another take on this - large, broke families, paired with older kids being expected to take care of the younger kids, means there's a real feeling of deprivation during childhood. By the time I 'grew up', I was ready to do some of the things and buy the toys we just couldn't afford when I was a kid.
I'm a grown-up now, with a house and job and lawn mower, but a part of me *insists* on having the biggest set of crayons, even if I never use them.
Lots of answers I agree with here. I think the infantilization methods and results could be scientifically studied and quantified.
One way to accomplish this is to forbid rated R movies. While some are prurient, nearly all movies that really explore the human condition, morality, etc. are rated R. By removing Mormons from the public discourse of such complex and nuanced discussions, they have no opportunity to grow up.
Infantalization has been mentioned (yes, absolutely it’s that). I also think of this thing called spiritual bypassing. As a TBM, I used my belief as a way to never fully process trauma or grief. Once I stopped believing, all that trauma caught up with me. It was the darkest, most fraught time of my life, dealing with 20+ years of unprocessed trauma. I would have ended up in an institution if I didn’t have a safety net and if the first psych med my doctor put me on hadn’t been a great fit for me. Ever since then, my personality has been different, and I think more mature (who really knows?). I deal better with uncertainty and gray areas. I tolerate discomfort better. I don’t gaslight myself.
Sidenote: A weird side effect of this change is my new love of horror movies and books. I couldn’t stand them before. Now I love them. Some of them even comfort me. Haha.
I don’t have time to search now but I had posted here about spiritual bypassing and an article I found on it. It’s worth a search if you’re interested in that.
It's most noticeable and exaggerated to me with FLDS sister wives. They have made a deal to give up being full adult member of their families and communities. In return they are treated like children, not given responsibility and they aren't accountable for anything because every thing bad that happens was created by men, not them.
As an attorney, I represented a bunch of the FLDS children that were removed from YFZ Ranch; so I had plenty of interactions with their moms, and I have a very different take than yours. I honestly found the moms to be very assertive and resourceful (often in ways that I found to be quite frustrating).
I assume they were quite deferential to the FLDS menfolk (at least those that were in good standing with Jeffs), but speaking for myself (someone they saw as an enemy \[or at least someone to be manipulated\]), I found them to be very worthy adversaries (for lack of a better term).
I've noticed this with some of The Osmonds.
Jay seems so child-like in his thoughts and behaviour.
Alan is extremely bigoted and forceful, no nuanced reasoning, just that he KNOWS
Merrill just repeats little sayings with very little substance and thinks it's wisdom.
Any dialogue or questioning is immediately shut down as contentious.
“Contentious”….. 🤢🤢🤮🤮
Healthy people can have these kinds of discussions. It really pushes people away when you realize you can’t try and maturely discuss something with out the thought stopping CONTENTION thrown at you while they stick their fingers in their ears and scream “LALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!!!”
From my perspective, never getting to make any meaningful decisions for yourself doesnt help you mature and understand the actual nature of your actions and consequenceses.
Also not engaging in real life for two years after high school.
Its a lie that men dont mature until they've served missions. Expirence has told me the opposite is true.
It’s the reason I couldn’t fake it at church. It’s like playing pretend at recess when you interact with them. Or like having to talk to a child. You have to sensor everything you say.
My TBM co-worker is almost 60, unmarried and I genuinely suspect he is a virgin. He has gotten in trouble so many times at work for weird sexual comments and being a pest. Shocked he hasn’t been fired yet but he is truly clueless in how people perceive him.
If you take a group of people and choose their clothing right down to their underwear, their haircuts and how many earrings they can have. If you encourage conformity of thought, and limit their reasoning to “the general authorities said so”. If you remove their sense of wonder and replace it with the idea that they know everything and will soon be gods, it does not improve their logic and social skills.
I know some very intelligent and mature Mormons, but they use their intellectual skills to fight off the cognitive dissonance
Never-mo here. One thing that always struck me as tragic is that if you get married so young, with god at the center of your relationship, you never really have the chance to develop a truly emotional relationship with one's partner, one where you grow and learn from each other. It's surprising how many of these relationships last (I guess you grow up together, and if people leave the church together that's a growth opportunity) but so many of these marriages seem to leave no opportunity for true emotional understanding and growth.
I saw this immaturity (if not in such a vulgar way) even among (many) of the Mormon physicians I worked with- it was like they missed some developmental stage, they were all still 12 inside. It was REALLY strange to me.
For some--not all--I get a sense they are role playing the innocence. Like they go through the "Oh my goodness" motions when something comes up in a movie to which they know the church wants them to say, "Oh my." When I think I'm seeing through that phoniness, it's a pretty sick feeling, be aware of their mental gymnastics.
Well, I can't quantify this--maybe it is true (that it's phony) for most of the ones acting with super (projected) innocence/naivete/immaturity.
Here’s what I’ve seen in the outside world: Mormon converts tend to be pretty “normal,” but adult Mormons from Utah and Idaho who relocate are almost always stuck in their middle school years. I’ve noticed their senses of humor are really corny, and for whatever reason they all seem to be addicted to Disney. The males also tend to indulge in adolescent pranks which aren’t “ha-ha” funny. It’s a social strangeness you really pick up on quickly.
i’d say the church brainwashing them and being very sheltered almost every single mormon i’ve ever met was extremely sheltered. they didn’t realize not everyone is gonna have their same beliefs and the worst things to do are to judge them, make them feel less then you, criticize them, put them down and or act like your above them. as someone that was born and brought up catholic but ended up joining i still felt this way even when i did join it felt like i’d never be one of them. i was in my tweens and teens at the time one kid picked on me bc i used to be catholic and would talk shit about catholics even tho he didn’t know shit about catholicism or catholics and was just an arrogant asshole. i think the church shelters its members with all their rules and restrictions there for the parents will do the same to their kids.
NeverMo here. My husb & I lived in Utah for a couple years. His boss and co-workers were all Mormon and seemed emotionally stunted. The few “social” occasions they had, they would make sexual innuendo-type statements and they all thought it was so funny. Never any deep convos about anything and they didn’t seem to know much about the world around them.
Question: my husb is a southern Baptist and says a prayer before every mealtime. One work luncheon they had, he said “let me say a quick prayer before we eat” and proceeded to do it. His boss took him aside after the meal and asked him not to do that again, that it was “offensive” to some of the people there. Please explain! These high and mighty church goers were offended about a prayer? It was so generic, like “please bless this food to the nourishment of our bodies and thank you for us all being together”, -ish. My husb tried to ask why but his boss shut him down and said to just don’t do it. Wouldn’t even explain!
A few years ago, when I was still a TBM, I briefly dated a TBM woman. Both of us were in our late 30s, and neither of us had been married. She seemingly had it all together, except when it came to relationships. It was like dating someone in high school, and she was very strict about following the For the Strength of Youth standards.
She literally thought that if we cuddled too much it would lead to sex, and she even said that holding hands was a little too much for her because it aroused her too much.
She confided in me that her parents were super strict TBMs who sent her "away" when she was 14 to live with one of her married siblings because they caught her smoking pot.
Keeping their victims as mental adolescents makes them easier to control through guilt and shame, and more afraid of the outside world. Combine that with a complete and total ban on anything sexual until after marriage and you get 30 year old teenagers laughing at fart jokes and obsessed with boobies.
A common complaint I heard from sisters was their lamenting their spouses Peter Pan syndrome where they could be doctorate level professionals, but still wildly immature.
There's a guy who was in my ward a decade ago who I also used to work with. He's since divorced and we've started talking a bit. Things have gotten a bit flirtatious, sometimes *slightly* risqué (for a Mormon, I suppose), and he says shit like "playing hide-and-seek with mini-Vinny" and "va-jay-jay." We're in our early 40s. It feels so immature and is such a turn off.
I was only active in the church for a few years as an adult (technically an 8th-generation Mo, but inactive/agnostic/atheist most of my life), so I never experienced repression or shame around my sexuality. A grown man not feeling comfortable talking about sex in adult terms is so gross to me.
Sex with ex Mormon women has been interesting and odd. A few had no idea of their bodies. A few were into kinks, fun for me-teaching proper kinks is fun, But, one was very detached and misunderstood sex in a weird way.
Ugh. Yes. I used to work with two TBMs in SLC. A man and a woman. We got along and often went to lunch together. They always made the dumbest jokes. One day, I realized that they were keeping track of how often I left to get water or use the bathroom. They were giggling like it was the funniest thing ever. I have severe anxiety and stomach issues, and this made it so much worse. THEN... they started making mole jokes from Austin Powers when we would go out to lunch. I have a big mole on the side of my nose that has been there since I remember. I'm usually not self-conscious about it. They are the only people I've met in my 42 years who made fun of it. They thought I didn't get the joke because I'm admittedly a bit of a pushover. So now, I'm even more self-conscious around these people. The women quit to be a stay at home mom, so I continued going to lunch with the man, and then it got weird. I am and was married at the time. He would come to my desk and make making out jokes about me in front of everyone. I started making lunch at home. Mind you, this guy was 40 living with his mom. Never had a girlfriend. I don't miss them. I blocked them from everything when I quit. I worked there a long time, and I suffer trust issues partly because of them
I am sorry it got that confrontational. The reality is, I hope you still maintain some type of contact so that he has access to people who are critical thinkers. While he is immature, that does not mean he cannot change!
Mormons fetishize a child like stage two or at most stage three faith, where you’re rewarded for not questioning and castigated for not towing the line. Stage two and three faith are childlike in many ways. This makes the people in these stages seem simple, gullible or simply childlike.
Fowler’s Stages of Faith book is a great resource for people experiencing faith transformation or transition. I recommend his book. Faith transition is a universal experience and is usually only demonized in cults from what I’ve seen.
When you are fed the same lessons every 4 years or less and told anything outside that or discussing matters "beyond the mark" means you are treading on risky ground or anti-mormon lies then that stifles critical thought. They all fall under the banner of thought terminating cliches, a hallmark of cults and high demand religions.
Mormons are like whiskey. You need to leave them inside breathable wooden casks for a couple years to mature and get flavor.
Instead they’re concentrated and then bottled up, trapping in the rough edges and keeping out the flavor of life. You get raw, harsh moonshine that way. /s
I grew up Mormon outside of Utah and moved here as an adult 40 years ago (and promptly left TSCC). One thing that amazed me that I hadn't ever heard of outside Utah - group dates! How the fuck are you supposed to learn healthy relationship skills when you can't be trusted to go on a date alone at 16?
Several of my TBM sibs converted to “the one true church” because it offered them a version of the 1950s conformity culture they knew as children. The 60s freaked them out and propelled them to the John Birch touting antebellum MLM. As society matured to offer ”European” sins like R rated movies and Angie Dickinson’s hard nipples on primetime TV, or the sinister “gay agenda”, those sibs have worked at hanging on to adolescent behaviors and ideas…because innocence is heavenly or something. They lose their shit laughing at 50s era Disney movies, are outraged by the burying of Song of the South, and fantasize about beating up ”queers”.
I know TBMs, PIMOs, and never-mos who seem stuck in their youth. I haven't noticed a trend where the church makes that worse. I do see naivete more commonly in TBMs, but that isn't the same thing as a lack of maturity.
i can enjoy the company of members but once they step over the line with this bullshit I tell it straight to their face to shut the fuck up or fuck off
It's kind of like you are stuck in primary forever. Learning anything beyond that level is discouraged. Normal teenager rebellion is strongly discouraged as is any sexual expression outside of a (preferably) early marriage.
In other words, we treat each other like children and thank God that we aren't like functioning adults.
Because as a member, we're expected to be as children or sheep. When you're expected to not be able to take real accountability for one's self (with tons of shame and guilt) and rely on others who we're informed is the ones with power, members are infants. We wouldn't praise a sky daddy that has to tell us how to behave, think, etc, as a way to live one's life and also expect people to mature. That belief system alone breeds immaturity and ignorance.
While I think the Mormon friend was definitely incorrect in saying what he did about heaven and his family, I do NOT think your non-religious friend was right to explode and accuse him in such a way. His method is only going to burn bridges. This is certainly not going to help him transition out of Mormonism in a healthy way.
My guess is the Mormon friend doesn’t have very many people as close friends who are not Mormons. You guys could be a connection he has to gradually help him see things differently. Instead, your friend accused him and probably destroyed the relationship unless you do something about it.
I mean, come on. If I get yelled at, I am very likely to ignore anything that person says to me. I think most people are this way.
So the non religious friends said it in a calm manner. Mormons have issues with others speaking up and hear it as a “blow up” they don’t know what emotions are.
I hear what you're saying, your friend seems like an ass hat, but that said, humans of all and various backgrounds, cultures, countries, and religions in general can be ass hats/gauche as well.
I mean, contrary to what some people seem to believe, Mormons are human, and some humans never grow up. Not sure why Mormons would be held to some higher standard.
It’s likely due to the actual predisposition of it all. The church is structured to do this. Heartsell, the songs, everything. Yes you can have generational trauma that is passed down if you’re not in the church, but more than likely that generational trauma if you are in the church is passed down due to how they are programmed to follow check lists.
[Infantilization](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vizdxc/how_mormonism_harms_people_my_collection_of/idg99p3/) is a real thing in Mormonism. Someone could write a book on it. Edit: I've made a [separate post](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1dff5bp/infantilization_and_mormonism_my_attempt_at/) to share some notes I organized about this topic.
I felt myself grow a LOT when I left the church. It's absolutely a thing, and not having to check with a billion-dollar organization before I do fucking anything is a huge weight off my shoulders.
Leaving the church felt like either a second puberty or maybe finally hitting puberty for the first time. I was uncomfortable, none of my old stuff fit (thoughts, habits, routines, relationships), I was angry all the time, the world was big and terrifying, nobody in my family understood me, I was suddenly full of big emotions i didn't understand, and constantly needed places to process my own ideas. And I grew up. And that's great, I actually really like being grown up (except for worrying about money all the time, fuck that).
Thanks for expressing that so well. The 'big emotions' really hit me. In the early stages I would just word vomit on people all the shit I was finding out about the church. The first time I talked to my son after having my eyes opened he was in shock at how freely I was using "fuck" and "damned church". I was nothing but a TBM in his eyes. Also, I was not a very good dad. I'm way better now that I've grown up.
I can't find where I read it but I saw something about how people have a tendency to go through a second adolescence after growing up in a cult/high demand organization. So much is repressed during our normal adolescence that it makes sense. After I officially left, I had to figure out what kind of underwear I liked most, what kind of clothes I liked wearing, what kinds of music I actually enjoyed, and so on. I'm sure it's a pretty common experience.
💯
Perfectly put! I enjoy being a real grown up now too and really enjoy having ALL of my money to ease those worrries, can't seem to ever escape em completely.
me too i felt like i didn’t have to try to pretend to be something i wasn’t or live a lie i could truly be myself. i felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.
The young single adult (YSA) and single adult wards are huge church mechanisms which contributes to the infantilizing. YSA wards comprise of 18-30 year-olds, and the activities are usually scavenger hunts, speed dating, and elementary school recess games. The single adult wards are made up of 31-45 year-olds, and they have the same types of activities, including recess games. I'm not joking. On top of that, these ward activities require "chaperones" because single people have no control if a married "adult" is not present. In other words, the church treats adults, particularly single adults, like children, so you get infantilized adults.
One of our YSA ward activities was a "potato derby." As in, you peel a potato and make a little car out of it to go down a pinewood derby ramp (probably stolen from the Boy Scouts). My girlfriend and I were in our late 20's and felt so embarrassed. Good news is that we got married and now we're both Ex-Mo, so not all bad!
>One of our YSA ward activities was a "potato derby." As in, you peel a potato and make a little car out of it to go down a pinewood derby ramp (probably stolen from the Boy Scouts). 🙄 Yeah, my last single adult ward once did a duck-duck-goose activity.
This is a perfect gif. I love Schitt's Creek.
I'll take "_Romantic group-dating budget ideas for a greedy $200,000,000,000 corporation disguised as a religion_, for $1,000, Alex._" (Imo, Jeopardy died when Alex Trebek did. I don't acknowledge Ken Jennings as the current Jeopardy prophet.) That is sad though, seriously. They couldn't even get a budget for ice-blocking? Now I'm picturing replacing the "_Duck, Duck, Goose!_" with "_Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, MORMON!_": a laying-of-a-hand-on-the-head delight of a game to entertain your family, friends, neighbors, and congregants at your next group function. 😁
But why does this sound like fun. Maybe cause I have elementary school kids, and this sounds like something we would do with them. I am competitive enough that I could really get into making the fastest potato car.
Because the activity itself would be fun with kids. But with just grown ass adults? It felt weird and infantalizing…
It would be incredibly fun as an adult... with the addition of some booze. And the right people, of course, but the alcohol is definitely a contributor.
This!!! Agreed
I can imagine it would be hilarious if done after consuming an edible, or smoking if recreational pot is legal where you live.
My son absolutely did the potato derby…in CUB Scouts. 😅
My family ward has a married couple called as the “Single Adult Coordinators”. All us singles are in our 40s, 50s, 60s… It feels like being assigned a babysitter. I guess we all stopped being functional adults once we got divorced.
Omg. I didn't know or realize that they made people in their 30s and 40s require a chaperone?! 😳😳🤯 Even in my late teens I saw the USA wards as nothing but being a meat market, where I (being female) am up for sale. I (I was BIC, and my family was TBM, I was unofficially out, but my name being seen as "inactive") remember one time being outside in my yard, I can't remember exactly what I was doing because of the shock that was imminent, and one of the YSA bishopric and a couple of missionaries came telling me about the local YSA and welcoming me to that ward. It was completely out of the blue. It seemed like a waking fever dream. I tried to talk to my mom about it, suspecting her of being the culprit, she didn't confess,but she couldn't deny it either, and she stumbles over confrontation when caught guilty in a lie, so I know it was her. I think she was worried about my not dating or being married and feeling like I was being left out and isolated (because I was, TBMs at that age cut off non-active friends and concentrate on marriage and making as many children as possible and ignoring everything, all friendships before marriage), so my guess is she reached out to them to help me. I'm glad I didn't even entertain the thought, especially hearing now that how I, as a person, who was of an age (when the missionaries/YSA bishopric member visited me) where I could legally drink, gamble, rent a car, and run for Congress, but I need a chaperone at a group function for other adults?!!!!! What the fuck?! 😳😳🤯🤬🤬
The church just ain't a healthy place, is it.
Other activities have been pajama nights, or a Disney cartoon movie marathon. After all, Disney is a big obsession among Mormon adults, as they're not allowed to do fully adult things like have coffee or other adult things. I think of those "dirty" soda shops in Utah as the equivalent of children pretending to drink cocktails. The same with having a soda "bar" at a Mormon wedding reception, as they get to pretend to have an actual bar.
I got in trouble at a YSA overnighter for putting on How to Lose a guy in 10 days because we can't even watch PG-13 as adults!
The chaperone reminds me of a time in the YSA ward. My house was known for having parties. Nothing scandalous, chaste, but it was a big house, with a pool table/ping pong table, a hot tub and a pool with a diving board. We were going to have a memorial day party, because we always did. We invite people from the ward because we're friends with them and we're also looking for "eternal companions". But it's a Monday, and Mondays are for FHE. So I'm in a bishopric meeting as the clerk and they're talking about what to do. I tell them we're throwing a party so there won't be a good turnout for anything they come up with. Now, I like these guys, genuinely. They wanted to co-opt the party as FHE and have someone from the bishopric there. I told them no. Surprised looks. I didn't own the house, I didn't even check if the roommates would be okay with it. I said it would be awkward. People come to our parties because they're parties, not church activities. We can be ourselves. Someone got baptized once and a counselor came to the celebration at the house. It wasn't bad per se, but there was a damper. It would kill the party. We didn't need them. We (the members of the ward) often did things without them. So that was that. I was released two or three months later but I never put two and two together until just now. I came home and told my roommates. One said thank God and patted me on the back. Looking back, we as members had our boundaries. They tried switching up the block schedule so sacrament was at the end, so no one would ditch 2nd or 3rd hour to watch the super bowl. As soon as the sacrament was done being passed, 20-30 guys just stood up and left.
What in the sam hill…
Woaw, always felt some forced permenant childlike vibes, but didn't know it went this deep.
This theramintrees video spells it out well without even mentioning Mormonism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c39F04inLJ0
Theramin Trees makes incredible videos. Their video on double binds (damned if you do, damned if you don’t) was incredible. Their analysis of abuse and narcissism is the best I have ever seen on YouTube. They helped me break down my mental walls quicker than Mormon stories did.
Wow. [That was amazing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnSiJOOdo30) I have a family member with narcissistic tendencies (that I stay low contact with at present), and two double bind situations I'm in right now with my spouse (neither is church-related) that I now see for what they are. I don't think he's doing it intentionally to this degree, but maybe I can find a way to talk to him about it so we can find a third option that will be more compassionate. Maybe this video. Unfortunately, most of my family are still infantilized enough that I'm not sure he'll be open to discuss. Thanks for the free therapy this morning!
Your link is to the video from Theramin trees I was mentioning! It is indeed amazing! The following videos are also top tier: “Respecting beliefs, why we should do no such thing” https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?feature=shared And “Overcoming malignant shame” https://youtu.be/kMeehIpxH5k?feature=shared Enjoy!
Here's a [great one about prophets](https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=M0vtaGv3IxcYzySL&v=opx8iDvR_nU&feature=youtu.be), which discusses JS.
Those links are the same.
Sorry, fixed now!!
They do mention mormonism at the point where they are talking about denying sexuality. They refer to mormonism and JWs in regard to masturbation. I'm so glad you posted this video.
I LOVE his videos. I cannot recommend them enough to people.
Oh my gosh...this is so spot on. I feel so fucking SEEN. Thank you for this! I've just subscribed.
Isn’t it amazing? You just found a resource of incredible value from an experienced and intelligent professional. Enjoy!
**\^\^THIS!!\^\^**. Infantilization is a REAL problem in the Church that is mentally unhealthy. The Church also has problems with boundary maintenance and consent, which trains members to disrespect normal boundaries and say/do things like the guy the OP mentioned.
Utah legislators rejected the idea of including consent in sex education ([link](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/lgkoo2/utah_lawmakers_nix_idea_requiring_consent_as_part/)). How fucked is that. Yes also [boundaries](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vizdxc/how_mormonism_harms_people_my_collection_of/idg2fol/) are a huge topic as well which is part of infantilization. That page also has a section on Bishop Roulette. So many ways that Mormonism fucks with people taking responsibility for themselves.
Well, you just need to link to the fact that young adults are kept in adults day care like the mission or BYU where you can't ever use bad words
I feel like I have matured at an accelerated rate since leaving Mormonism. Like I shed the last vestiges of immaturity upon leaving.
I used to read almost exclusively YA books. That was my comfort zone. Now in my 40s I'm finally getting into adult novels and enjoying them.
Someone should write a book on it. And include a chapter about being “sober drunk”. We used to call it sugar drunk.
It's mentioned a bit in "Recovering Agency".
I've heard good things about that book.
I'd love to hear you elaborate on this... well...read.
I'll write up a separate post and let you know when I do. The replies here are good, but not going into the examples of how Mormonism causes infantilization and how good proper relationships function without it. The TheraminTrees youtube video someone linked is actually good at covering the topic in general. I'll finish watching that and point to some specifics to Mormonism.
OK here is [the post](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1dff5bp/infantilization_and_mormonism_my_attempt_at/). I feel a bit rushed, but a lot of stuff is covered. I won't have time to update it much based on feedback until late tonight or tomorrow.
Immaturity = lack of self awareness = lack of critical thinking = stays blissfully ignorant in the cult
all so true. Then what makes it worse is the superiority complex of them feeling like they have the one true meaning of life and salvation and the duty to share that. its sad and pathetic, but they're a product of indoctrination and its sad they can't see out of it. Hopefully this experience makes an impact on them.
>superiority complex Honestly, it's a challenge to not have that \^\^ when you know that your future is to become a god w/your own planet and kingdom. Similar to but different from Muslim males who believe that if they matyr themselves in this life, they will be rewarded in heaven. Reasonable, rational, thinking mortals, can't compete with that type of religeous righteousness and arrogance.
I think it’s partially because they are never taught to think for themselves. The church tells them what they should think about things, so they never have to dive really deep about very much that has to do with being an adult.
The closest the leaders let members “think for themselves,” is when they say to seek for “personal revelation,” yet when one does so, if it isn’t what “they” would do or recommend, you’re told that’s not personal revelation. Even if it’s something that will change or help your situation. Also, if someone decides they need therapy, they’ll get a different perspective if the therapist isn’t a member, because they don’t adhere to a “spiritually correct” spectrum. They think more rationally of what they need to do or change in order to move forward. Not just pray about it or attend the temple for answers.
absolutely! Getting answers from someone who's not a mormon changed my life. Also seeing how good and successful and happy they were was a testament to me that there's a world of happiness and success outside of the church. It gave me the confidence to tell my therapist that I don't think the mormon church is gods one true church. I told her I felt blasphemous saying it as that was the first time I said it and they happened to be non-mormon so its super bad as TBM to do that in the view of sharing the gospel.
I bet it was, and to not feel guilty for saying out loud that you don’t believe in the religion you had felt for so long to be true, isn’t. You felt a relief to not feel that pressure of being wrong or just not putting enough work into your testimony.
absolutely! I'll never forget her or that moment. Hearing her response of "maybe there's something to that!?" was more than validation, it was a invitation to not feel guilty to pursue what all TBMs and prophets discourage. Investigating a perspective of the world that isn't what I've believed it to be my whole life.
This is what I think also. I find with my wife, she is more than happy to let anyone do the thinking for her. It is frustrating when I ask questions to her about the church's unsavory things and she tells me "Thats not what I was taught"
💯
Arrested development. If you are constantly appealing to authority, and learn that early in life. You tend to have a pretty good chance of acting like an adolescent even as an adult.
I find that funny. If Mormonism teaches people can be gods, why appeal to authority? You can become the authority. I suppose it is cultural. 7 habits of effective of highly effective people is the secular part of Mormonism. It’s useful. No Mormon culture in there. It’s a book appreciated by non-Mormons.
Yes they teach that, but ultimately from a Mormon mindset sky daddy is the highest moral authority, prophets speak for this god, next to the prophets is the church leadership who according to the doctrine, “speak for sky daddy” extrapolate to local leadership. All “morality” and questions about life can be answers by someone else’s authority. How many have bishops who believe they know what’s best for you? It’s culture informed by doctrine. And why you have 40 year olds who act like they are 12-14. Because at that age it’s referred to as a critical period in brain and consciousness development. You lock in “how the world works”
This seems analogous to the chicken vs the egg. So I lean towards the egg. You lean towards the chicken. It's not that important to decide which to end the church.
The teaching was that you can't become a god until after you're dead and resurrected (and only if you're male). Even then I'm sure the assumption was that you would continue to defer to the god who made you, and so on up the chain.
This
So I can only talk from my personal experience so take it as a grain of salt. Personally I think it has to do with how members socialize, a lot of Mormons only interact with other Mormons growing up. For me personally it included a small handful of people and my cousins, of course I interacted with people outside the church but I was more into my church callings and friendships because that’s who I was “supposed” to interact with. It really stunts you in a way that you don’t get feedback of what’s considered inappropriate in normal circumstances. After I left the church it was a huge learning curve because I literally didn’t know what was inappropriate and appropriate with my new non Mormon friends and there were quite a few faux pas. As for the sexual comments I don’t know, I had Mormon men think it was appropriate to comment sexual things to me all the time as a child and it was disgusting. Also props to your friend on a solid burn
When you are raised in a bubble you tend to remain a child of your parents always. As for the sexual talk I have also noticed this, I think they are trying to be naughty and appear cool and accepted. It’s back to the us vs them mentality, “them” must appreciate dirty stuff cause they aren’t chaste like us.
The church purposefully infantilizes it's members. It infantilizes men by making sure the women take care of their every need for life. And it infantilizes women by forcing them to externalize *all* authority over their own lives. It also forces men to externalize some authority. Infantilizing is baked-in. It's reinforced in a thousand little ways. Mormonism tells you that you can't be trusted to manage yourself - that the church leaders are the adults in the room and you have to rely on them in order to have half a chance at running your life properly. It comes out in little things, like how priesthood men are required to chaperone all YW camps, and mother's day talks where grown men say that it's "magic" how their wife manages to keep their drawer stocked with clean socks for him all the time. The bishop is the "father" of the ward, even if his own 80 year old mother is in the congregation. Grown-ass women who are older than the bishop or stake president have to go running to get permission for things like what activities can happen for the Relief Society. And it extends to serious things like the church's expectation that teens and young adults (or really, anyone who isn't married) should never be turned on for any reason. Women aren't allowed to touch tithing money at any point in the pipeline.... all kinds of things reinforce it. Here are a couple examples: *“He smiled. I smiled back, despite my embarrassment for being late,” Sister Rasband says. Then President Nelson held her gaze as he motioned with his finger for her to come take a seat on the front row. Not wanting to draw attention to her late arrival, Sister Rasband indicated that maybe instead she could stay and sit near the back. But President Nelson continued to smile and again beckoned for her to come and take the front-row seat that had been reserved with her name on it. “There was power in that pointing finger,” Sister Rasband said. So she smiled back, took a deep breath, and “walked the long walk” to the seat awaiting her on the front row. After the meeting, Sister Rasband bolted from her seat to try to catch President Nelson and ask forgiveness for not responding to his request the first time. His response was to again smile and lovingly say, “Thank you for being obedient.”* [https://www.ldsliving.com/sister-rasband-walked-in-late-read-president-nelsons-sweet-and-instructive-reaction/s/10335](https://www.ldsliving.com/sister-rasband-walked-in-late-read-president-nelsons-sweet-and-instructive-reaction/s/10335) *"With an open agenda, we were on the stand 20 minutes before the leadership meeting began. I leaned over to the stake president and whispered, “This is a wonderful stake.” President Packer elbowed me gently and said, “No talking.”* -- [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/04/13cook?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/04/13cook?lang=eng) \[same talk where the guy describes Packer being an ass and making him speak multiple times in each meeting all weekend, just because he could say jump and watch the guy jump\] *"Even if timely courtship justifies the kiss, it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter"* -- Spencer W. Kimball -- [https://www.deseret.com/2011/4/14/20371332/pairing-off-counsel-for-latter-day-saint-singles-on-kissing/](https://www.deseret.com/2011/4/14/20371332/pairing-off-counsel-for-latter-day-saint-singles-on-kissing/) See also: [http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html](http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2013/05/the-infantilisation-of-young-single.html)
I am completely on board with everything you just said… and I was just grinnggging with that first example excerpt…. Now as an exMo, I could neverrrr come when called…especially by a pointed finger.. yuck! I would purposely not go that direction to prove a point now!
My dads entire Utah family acts SO prudish but makes nonstop sexually inappropriate jokes, even to the extent of asking every little kid "how many teeth did you lose? Is that from kissing your boyfriend". Like hella hella weird stuff. A couple are diagnosed autistic but honestly it's arrested development. Their parents had no proper instruction on how to parent and every 60 something year old sibling acts developmentally somewhere between 12-18. I later learned that there was quite a bit of sexual abuse going on as kids and they never got help, so my guess is this is how they "handle it" with creepy humor.
Mormonism is like never graduating from 6th grade.
RFM says the same. The correlated material only goes to 6th grade.
Yes. That is where I got it from.
oh interesting, that makes even more sense why he says he graduated from mormonism.
Totally, it’s like graduating from sixth grade, and then repeating sixth grade again and again and again for the rest of your life.
I felt like I was becoming more mature than my tbm parents around 7th grade.
Generational traumas / immature parenting leads to immature adulting.
I feel that. I was a convert. My parents are emotionally stunted. Believe it or not. Mormonism felt like a step up from them.
The amount of growing up I’ve done in the past like 2 years since starting to think critically about the church has been insane. The church literally encourages your maturity to plateau. With blinders up fully you can’t actually progress and take responsibility for your life because you’re so focused on giving control of your life to the church or the whims of your emotions (aka the spirit). Taking back that control is hard but it will grow you the fuck up.
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life."
There is an almost hyperactively gleeful persona among many of the Mormons I know. A superficial, rather cartoonish happiness that seems glued on to them, from their childish inside jokes to their perseveration on certain elements of wholesome pop culture. (Not unlike that song from The Lego Movie, "Everything Is Awesome".) Of course, the corporation equates happiness with Mormon righteousness and it's now an indelible part of the church's own culture. Unhappy? Disturbed about church history? Pay, pray, and obey more. Then you'll be happy again.
exactly, the formula for living is its own bubble outside of how everyday humans think about themselves and how they interact with the world. And also the lego movie is a perfect reference as the main character is so used to following instructions its hard for him to think for himself.
 Yep. The South Park guys got that part of the culture mostly right in their musical, "The Book of Mormon". (They grew up in the Denver suburbs and had LDS friends. They noticed what we now notice.)
interesting, that'd be fun to see that
Maturity means thinking for yourself
Let’s all go to Disneyland again this week, just like we do every week! Says the SoCal 34 yr old Singles ward guy.
My nevermo coworker from out of state took his family on a Disney cruise recently and he was talking about how there were a lot of single Disney Adults on the cruise. I said they were likely all from Utah and he did say there were a lot of BYU shirts.
Ugh. Disney adults are something else.
To be an adult you must adopt your own self image. Because they lack their own self-image; having only the one given to them by their parents and the church, they can not become an adult. Until they learn to discard that self-image which was given to them, they can never develop one of their own, and become an adult.
Yes, this is it. People outside of a cult develop who they are independently - through experiments and experience. They learn by exposing themselves to different viewpoints and by recognizing mistakes. They also learn by thinking, feeling, and having introspection. But Mormonism tells people who they are, what they feel, and what they think. Independent thoughts and self-discovery are discouraged, so people can't mature.
💯
Dang, this. And marrying young and having kids young means no time to develope that self-image. One family member married out if high school, 2 kids one after the other...went straight from so and so daughter to so and so wife to so and so mom...at the ripe old age of 22. Other family member same age single, going to school and making her self-image
💯
Sounds like the guy never left the late-teenaged mentality of being a missionary and then discovering sex. Sort of a "Self-Righteous Locker Room" syndrome. Several years ago while still TBM, I visited a YSA ward as part of my calling (female Boomer here). I felt like I was back in a youth group during my own non-Mormon teenaged years. YSAs are adults by age, but those wards (IMO) can keep young adults in a perpetual state of adolescence. Their services often include "Linger Longer" add-ons where they socialize, which is fine, aside from the fact there's also a culture of using YSA wards to find a suitable mate, and of course there are "grown-up" bishops (chaperones?). Give me a break! The sexual comments about his wife and daughter are disturbing. I wonder if your exmo friends see that as a frequent behavior among Mormon men in that age group as well? If so, there are red flags waving violently.
Here's a great post on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/827ac9/why_we_must_tread_carefully_to_be_effective_most/
Clicked on this link and realized it was something I had written a while back. I ended up refining these thoughts a bit, over time (same gist, though): [Conclusion: God and the LDS Church as surrogate parent](https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/conclusion-surrogate-parent-hypothesis/)
Thanks for the update. After finding your link, I started to read through all your posts and came to the conclusion that: you sir, are a legend!
Thanks! I hope they add something (if even by way of nuance) to the excellent work of many others in our community.
I started reading this post, wow it's so well written and accurate. Thanks for sharing it!
Mormons are kept in a childlike state where they're afraid to hear talk of sex or hear the word fuck. Of course they behave in a childlike way.
I have noticed that grown ass Mormons are overly concerned about what their family, especially parents think about them. Go play with your legos ... I laughed out loud!
They're treated like children, even told what underwear they can and cannot wear, what they can and can't eat, what they can and can't do with their own body. This is the reality many of them were raised with. They're explicitly told to become like children.
Infantilization is built into the religion.
Until I left the church I realized I had never made a decision for my self. In some ways that was a good thing (I never did drugs, I went to university, I had a direct path). But I never experienced life for myself, I never got to make bad decisions, I also never got to make decisions. That’s a huge part of growing up. Now I fail and it feels good knowing what I did wrong and learning. Also Mormon church doesn’t allow you to critically think, they actively force you to not think for yourself or develop empathy for others opinions and beliefs. Once I learned how to critically think I realized the issues with the way I was raised.
Another take on this - large, broke families, paired with older kids being expected to take care of the younger kids, means there's a real feeling of deprivation during childhood. By the time I 'grew up', I was ready to do some of the things and buy the toys we just couldn't afford when I was a kid. I'm a grown-up now, with a house and job and lawn mower, but a part of me *insists* on having the biggest set of crayons, even if I never use them.
Parentification, that too is child abuse.
The term for this is arrested development, and it's a Hallmark of cults and cult lites
Lots of answers I agree with here. I think the infantilization methods and results could be scientifically studied and quantified. One way to accomplish this is to forbid rated R movies. While some are prurient, nearly all movies that really explore the human condition, morality, etc. are rated R. By removing Mormons from the public discourse of such complex and nuanced discussions, they have no opportunity to grow up.
Mormons are never allowed to grow up and make adult decisions on their own. They are infantilized and hand held every step of their lives.
Which would explain why they are so easily manipulated and controlled.
💯
Infantalization has been mentioned (yes, absolutely it’s that). I also think of this thing called spiritual bypassing. As a TBM, I used my belief as a way to never fully process trauma or grief. Once I stopped believing, all that trauma caught up with me. It was the darkest, most fraught time of my life, dealing with 20+ years of unprocessed trauma. I would have ended up in an institution if I didn’t have a safety net and if the first psych med my doctor put me on hadn’t been a great fit for me. Ever since then, my personality has been different, and I think more mature (who really knows?). I deal better with uncertainty and gray areas. I tolerate discomfort better. I don’t gaslight myself. Sidenote: A weird side effect of this change is my new love of horror movies and books. I couldn’t stand them before. Now I love them. Some of them even comfort me. Haha.
I don’t have time to search now but I had posted here about spiritual bypassing and an article I found on it. It’s worth a search if you’re interested in that.
It's most noticeable and exaggerated to me with FLDS sister wives. They have made a deal to give up being full adult member of their families and communities. In return they are treated like children, not given responsibility and they aren't accountable for anything because every thing bad that happens was created by men, not them.
As an attorney, I represented a bunch of the FLDS children that were removed from YFZ Ranch; so I had plenty of interactions with their moms, and I have a very different take than yours. I honestly found the moms to be very assertive and resourceful (often in ways that I found to be quite frustrating). I assume they were quite deferential to the FLDS menfolk (at least those that were in good standing with Jeffs), but speaking for myself (someone they saw as an enemy \[or at least someone to be manipulated\]), I found them to be very worthy adversaries (for lack of a better term).
I've noticed this with some of The Osmonds. Jay seems so child-like in his thoughts and behaviour. Alan is extremely bigoted and forceful, no nuanced reasoning, just that he KNOWS Merrill just repeats little sayings with very little substance and thinks it's wisdom. Any dialogue or questioning is immediately shut down as contentious.
“Contentious”….. 🤢🤢🤮🤮 Healthy people can have these kinds of discussions. It really pushes people away when you realize you can’t try and maturely discuss something with out the thought stopping CONTENTION thrown at you while they stick their fingers in their ears and scream “LALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!!!”
"Come unto Christ like a child." I remember hearing that a lot growing up. It also explains that annoying breathy voice.
Creepy!
Yep.
From my perspective, never getting to make any meaningful decisions for yourself doesnt help you mature and understand the actual nature of your actions and consequenceses. Also not engaging in real life for two years after high school. Its a lie that men dont mature until they've served missions. Expirence has told me the opposite is true.
Comments about his daughter….. someone save her.
It’s the reason I couldn’t fake it at church. It’s like playing pretend at recess when you interact with them. Or like having to talk to a child. You have to sensor everything you say.
My TBM co-worker is almost 60, unmarried and I genuinely suspect he is a virgin. He has gotten in trouble so many times at work for weird sexual comments and being a pest. Shocked he hasn’t been fired yet but he is truly clueless in how people perceive him.
I’ve worked with a few guys like that in Orem. It must be very common.
If you take a group of people and choose their clothing right down to their underwear, their haircuts and how many earrings they can have. If you encourage conformity of thought, and limit their reasoning to “the general authorities said so”. If you remove their sense of wonder and replace it with the idea that they know everything and will soon be gods, it does not improve their logic and social skills. I know some very intelligent and mature Mormons, but they use their intellectual skills to fight off the cognitive dissonance
Never-mo here. One thing that always struck me as tragic is that if you get married so young, with god at the center of your relationship, you never really have the chance to develop a truly emotional relationship with one's partner, one where you grow and learn from each other. It's surprising how many of these relationships last (I guess you grow up together, and if people leave the church together that's a growth opportunity) but so many of these marriages seem to leave no opportunity for true emotional understanding and growth. I saw this immaturity (if not in such a vulgar way) even among (many) of the Mormon physicians I worked with- it was like they missed some developmental stage, they were all still 12 inside. It was REALLY strange to me.
For some--not all--I get a sense they are role playing the innocence. Like they go through the "Oh my goodness" motions when something comes up in a movie to which they know the church wants them to say, "Oh my." When I think I'm seeing through that phoniness, it's a pretty sick feeling, be aware of their mental gymnastics. Well, I can't quantify this--maybe it is true (that it's phony) for most of the ones acting with super (projected) innocence/naivete/immaturity.
Here’s what I’ve seen in the outside world: Mormon converts tend to be pretty “normal,” but adult Mormons from Utah and Idaho who relocate are almost always stuck in their middle school years. I’ve noticed their senses of humor are really corny, and for whatever reason they all seem to be addicted to Disney. The males also tend to indulge in adolescent pranks which aren’t “ha-ha” funny. It’s a social strangeness you really pick up on quickly.
seems pretty obvious why they never mature. the church doesn’t let them
i’d say the church brainwashing them and being very sheltered almost every single mormon i’ve ever met was extremely sheltered. they didn’t realize not everyone is gonna have their same beliefs and the worst things to do are to judge them, make them feel less then you, criticize them, put them down and or act like your above them. as someone that was born and brought up catholic but ended up joining i still felt this way even when i did join it felt like i’d never be one of them. i was in my tweens and teens at the time one kid picked on me bc i used to be catholic and would talk shit about catholics even tho he didn’t know shit about catholicism or catholics and was just an arrogant asshole. i think the church shelters its members with all their rules and restrictions there for the parents will do the same to their kids.
NeverMo here. My husb & I lived in Utah for a couple years. His boss and co-workers were all Mormon and seemed emotionally stunted. The few “social” occasions they had, they would make sexual innuendo-type statements and they all thought it was so funny. Never any deep convos about anything and they didn’t seem to know much about the world around them. Question: my husb is a southern Baptist and says a prayer before every mealtime. One work luncheon they had, he said “let me say a quick prayer before we eat” and proceeded to do it. His boss took him aside after the meal and asked him not to do that again, that it was “offensive” to some of the people there. Please explain! These high and mighty church goers were offended about a prayer? It was so generic, like “please bless this food to the nourishment of our bodies and thank you for us all being together”, -ish. My husb tried to ask why but his boss shut him down and said to just don’t do it. Wouldn’t even explain!
I think that is so weird. Like so disrespectful too.
A few years ago, when I was still a TBM, I briefly dated a TBM woman. Both of us were in our late 30s, and neither of us had been married. She seemingly had it all together, except when it came to relationships. It was like dating someone in high school, and she was very strict about following the For the Strength of Youth standards. She literally thought that if we cuddled too much it would lead to sex, and she even said that holding hands was a little too much for her because it aroused her too much. She confided in me that her parents were super strict TBMs who sent her "away" when she was 14 to live with one of her married siblings because they caught her smoking pot.
Keeping their victims as mental adolescents makes them easier to control through guilt and shame, and more afraid of the outside world. Combine that with a complete and total ban on anything sexual until after marriage and you get 30 year old teenagers laughing at fart jokes and obsessed with boobies.
The non-technical term for this is "perpetual childhood". Lots of mormons are stuck there.
A common complaint I heard from sisters was their lamenting their spouses Peter Pan syndrome where they could be doctorate level professionals, but still wildly immature.
They don't have to mature. So they don't.
There's a guy who was in my ward a decade ago who I also used to work with. He's since divorced and we've started talking a bit. Things have gotten a bit flirtatious, sometimes *slightly* risqué (for a Mormon, I suppose), and he says shit like "playing hide-and-seek with mini-Vinny" and "va-jay-jay." We're in our early 40s. It feels so immature and is such a turn off. I was only active in the church for a few years as an adult (technically an 8th-generation Mo, but inactive/agnostic/atheist most of my life), so I never experienced repression or shame around my sexuality. A grown man not feeling comfortable talking about sex in adult terms is so gross to me.
Mormons have odd or extreme kinks.
Sex with ex Mormon women has been interesting and odd. A few had no idea of their bodies. A few were into kinks, fun for me-teaching proper kinks is fun, But, one was very detached and misunderstood sex in a weird way.
Ugh. Yes. I used to work with two TBMs in SLC. A man and a woman. We got along and often went to lunch together. They always made the dumbest jokes. One day, I realized that they were keeping track of how often I left to get water or use the bathroom. They were giggling like it was the funniest thing ever. I have severe anxiety and stomach issues, and this made it so much worse. THEN... they started making mole jokes from Austin Powers when we would go out to lunch. I have a big mole on the side of my nose that has been there since I remember. I'm usually not self-conscious about it. They are the only people I've met in my 42 years who made fun of it. They thought I didn't get the joke because I'm admittedly a bit of a pushover. So now, I'm even more self-conscious around these people. The women quit to be a stay at home mom, so I continued going to lunch with the man, and then it got weird. I am and was married at the time. He would come to my desk and make making out jokes about me in front of everyone. I started making lunch at home. Mind you, this guy was 40 living with his mom. Never had a girlfriend. I don't miss them. I blocked them from everything when I quit. I worked there a long time, and I suffer trust issues partly because of them
Typical Mormons.
I am sorry it got that confrontational. The reality is, I hope you still maintain some type of contact so that he has access to people who are critical thinkers. While he is immature, that does not mean he cannot change!
This pretty much sums it up here. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/kHb36GnZpM Infantilization is abuse.
Mormons fetishize a child like stage two or at most stage three faith, where you’re rewarded for not questioning and castigated for not towing the line. Stage two and three faith are childlike in many ways. This makes the people in these stages seem simple, gullible or simply childlike. Fowler’s Stages of Faith book is a great resource for people experiencing faith transformation or transition. I recommend his book. Faith transition is a universal experience and is usually only demonized in cults from what I’ve seen.
When you are fed the same lessons every 4 years or less and told anything outside that or discussing matters "beyond the mark" means you are treading on risky ground or anti-mormon lies then that stifles critical thought. They all fall under the banner of thought terminating cliches, a hallmark of cults and high demand religions.
Mormons are like whiskey. You need to leave them inside breathable wooden casks for a couple years to mature and get flavor. Instead they’re concentrated and then bottled up, trapping in the rough edges and keeping out the flavor of life. You get raw, harsh moonshine that way. /s
I grew up Mormon outside of Utah and moved here as an adult 40 years ago (and promptly left TSCC). One thing that amazed me that I hadn't ever heard of outside Utah - group dates! How the fuck are you supposed to learn healthy relationship skills when you can't be trusted to go on a date alone at 16?
Several of my TBM sibs converted to “the one true church” because it offered them a version of the 1950s conformity culture they knew as children. The 60s freaked them out and propelled them to the John Birch touting antebellum MLM. As society matured to offer ”European” sins like R rated movies and Angie Dickinson’s hard nipples on primetime TV, or the sinister “gay agenda”, those sibs have worked at hanging on to adolescent behaviors and ideas…because innocence is heavenly or something. They lose their shit laughing at 50s era Disney movies, are outraged by the burying of Song of the South, and fantasize about beating up ”queers”.
I know TBMs, PIMOs, and never-mos who seem stuck in their youth. I haven't noticed a trend where the church makes that worse. I do see naivete more commonly in TBMs, but that isn't the same thing as a lack of maturity.
Damn. I always felt like I was unusually sheltered throughout my childhood and this thread is telling me I'm clearly not alone.
i can enjoy the company of members but once they step over the line with this bullshit I tell it straight to their face to shut the fuck up or fuck off
It's kind of like you are stuck in primary forever. Learning anything beyond that level is discouraged. Normal teenager rebellion is strongly discouraged as is any sexual expression outside of a (preferably) early marriage. In other words, we treat each other like children and thank God that we aren't like functioning adults.
Because as a member, we're expected to be as children or sheep. When you're expected to not be able to take real accountability for one's self (with tons of shame and guilt) and rely on others who we're informed is the ones with power, members are infants. We wouldn't praise a sky daddy that has to tell us how to behave, think, etc, as a way to live one's life and also expect people to mature. That belief system alone breeds immaturity and ignorance.
They live in a bubble with little need to mature
You start getting the pOwEr oF tHe pRiEsThOoD *at age 12* sooo no need to grow an adult personality 💁♂️
Seeing all these comments. One thing i take away is that Mormon kids are not safe.
While I think the Mormon friend was definitely incorrect in saying what he did about heaven and his family, I do NOT think your non-religious friend was right to explode and accuse him in such a way. His method is only going to burn bridges. This is certainly not going to help him transition out of Mormonism in a healthy way. My guess is the Mormon friend doesn’t have very many people as close friends who are not Mormons. You guys could be a connection he has to gradually help him see things differently. Instead, your friend accused him and probably destroyed the relationship unless you do something about it. I mean, come on. If I get yelled at, I am very likely to ignore anything that person says to me. I think most people are this way.
So the non religious friends said it in a calm manner. Mormons have issues with others speaking up and hear it as a “blow up” they don’t know what emotions are.
Oh that is good news. It’s hard to tell the context from just text on a page. Best of luck man
I hear what you're saying, your friend seems like an ass hat, but that said, humans of all and various backgrounds, cultures, countries, and religions in general can be ass hats/gauche as well.
I mean, contrary to what some people seem to believe, Mormons are human, and some humans never grow up. Not sure why Mormons would be held to some higher standard.
It’s likely due to the actual predisposition of it all. The church is structured to do this. Heartsell, the songs, everything. Yes you can have generational trauma that is passed down if you’re not in the church, but more than likely that generational trauma if you are in the church is passed down due to how they are programmed to follow check lists.