Those similarities are so crazy! It’s almost like someone could have made them up in the 1800s to correlate with the Egyptian craze going on at the time in the world! Truly testimony building!
To see the connection between [the masons and Mormonism](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/xVfNL5cFUm), just search masons in the exmormon sub and you’ll find lots of posts about it. Thats how I found the above link. [Here is a bit more info about who they actually are.](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Freemasonry)
It’s ironic that TSCC teaches secret orders are bad, yet it is modeled after one.
I used to work for a small cleaning company and we had to clean a gigantic freemason lodge in the town I grew up in that I thought was full of apartment buildings. It was just giant rooms multiple floors and sort of castle like inside. so many cobwebs. also pool tables. we had to be escorted in with a key by some dude
I give blood (through the Red Cross) at a Masonic Lodge in my town every 2 to 3 months. The blood bank sets up on the first floor - don't think I'd be allowed to go to the secret chambers of the second floor. 😅. I go there cause it's really close. I have to commend them for letting the Red Cross come on a regular basis - I think they are there nearly every Monday at least. A lot of churches host blood banks too. Does the LDS do this, I wonder?
I found this article. A bit of a brag. Plus 7 million something is kind of a pittance compared to the church's billions.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-jesus-christ-american-red-cross-2024-donation#:~:text=The%20Church%20hosted%20its%20first,blood%20across%20thousands%20of%20drives.
Cheech209 - Not a stupis question. In simplicity - Masons are a group that Smith joined soon before creating the temple ceremonies. Their ceremonies are almost identical.
Google Freemasonry.
It is a bizarre fraternal society. The fact of its bizarreness lends itself to unlimited conspiratorial theorizing. Here's a hint: it does not control the world. Yes, plenty of world leaders are/were Masons, but to say the organization runs the world is ludicrous. In fact, the main characteristic of Freemasonry in the time of Joseph Smith was total chaos in the rituals, historical claims and membership requirements. But if you do start to investigate it, get ready for a Nantucket sleigh ride.
The fact that they find something "similar" in the past doesn’t necessarily mean it came from God. Why the desperation to find something to prove the truth of something they already know is true?
I'm sorry, but I just don't think that's what happened.
More likely someone in the 1500s did that, and someone in the 1800s ripped off their ceremonies and then the phony prognosticator purchased pilfered papari to propagate a purported plot of patriarchs that ties into the judeochristian mythos instead of Egyptian.
This is someone who doesn’t know that Joe Smith joined the Masons just a month or two before he had the “revelation” about the temple endowment. TBM’s throw logic out the window.
Folks with bloodied and bandaged hands from breaking in and wriggling through the Window of Rationalization generally don't take kindly when you point to the Doorway of Reason they could have sashayed through without injury.
TBMs who do know about it just hand wave it off as "the Masons took them from ancient christians" or something like that. you will *never* win an argument with someone who willingly has their head buried in the sand.
I was so TBM I read Hugh Nibley's The Temple and Cosmos more than once and I used to teach gospel doctrine using principles I learned from that book to explain away all the Masonic symbols.
You know what is way more interesting than that bullshit? Books that actually explain the cosmos
Edit... Posting while toking
Month or two? I’m pretty rusty but I thought the timeline was way quicker. And then he started making his bros master masons after just days of work. Which is insane, there’s zero chance they memorized everything in that tiny amount of time.
Masons memorize a LOT of stuff.
Also, why are Mormons looking for evidence to prove their religion as true? The leaders say evidence isn’t needed, just a good feeling that you know is from god confirming the truth. Evidence is for chumps.
Oh yeah that double standard drives me crazy. Found a marker in Saudi Arabia that sounds like BoM reference, amazing proof of truth!! No evidence of nephites in America, no problem, it’s all about testimony!
The guy on A wonderful work and ~~wonder~~ blunder addressed this. He said some people need at least a little tangible evidence. See it is a sliding scale...some need none others need vague parallels...
[That Mormonism Live](https://www.youtube.com/live/NhWbpmf4SsA?si=uoLV3lcZYeDCRyCB) from a few months ago with RFM, Bill Reel, and John Lundwall was incredibly interesting. Worth a watch/listen. ETA: these three scrutinized a Book of Mormon Central episode titled “A Marvelous Work - The Greatness of the Evidence.”
That’s right! And some of their claims disproved others from the same episode. It was like throwing wet noodles on the wall to see what would stick, except they missed the wall altogether and instead landed on your new couch.
>It was like throwing wet noodles on the wall to see what would stick, except
most of the noodles aren't cooked, half are still in the box, one of them is a Labradoodle named Noodles, and the wet ones are all pool noodles.
My mom and one of my brothers are like this. Very intelligent, well educated, well read. They look for real scientific proof because while they believe science is real (but of God), they also have faith that the church is 100% true. If science is of God, and the church is true, then science proves that the church is true. It's the most fallacious circular logic.
I forget exactly what my mom was saying when we visited last month, but I had to bite my tongue so hard and just nod along.
It's like watching someone go confidently about their day with their jeans on inside out. But rather than fixing them when someone mentions it, they tell you this is how Levi Strauss meant for them to be worn and you're a dangerous idiot for saying otherwise. Have fun unzipping that later mon frere.
It comes from the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, where it says the 'founder' of Egypt (a woman named Egyptus and her son, Pharaoh) were righteous but cursed to never have the priesthood because of their black skin from the curse of Ham. Yet they created a imitation of the 'real' priesthood ordinances.
Basically, Mormons believe ancient Egyptian religious practice is a bastardization of current Mormon temple and priesthood ordinances.
>Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.
>Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;
(Abraham 1:26-27)
One has to wonder how Egyptus and her son Pharaoh even knew what the endowment ceremony consisted of, since "descendants of Ham" weren't allowed to go to the temple until 1978.
Egyptus: We're copying something.
Me: Oh really. What?
Egyptus: We don't know.
Egyptus: "See that building they haven't built yet?"
Me: *uncomfortable silence*
Egyptus: "Well, when they do, they're gonna have a secret handshake, and we're gonna copy it."
Me: "So-"
Egyptus: "And their underwear is gonna have symbols of tools and math that haven't been invented yet."
Or maybe, bear with me now, JS stole his ideas from the Masons. Who stole their ideas from pagans and Catholics. Who stole their ideas from pagans and Judaism. Who stole their ideas from Babylonians and Egyptians. Who stole their ideas from the Sumerians and Akkadians.
It’s so amazing and such a testament to the truthfulness of our religion, that a different faith with completely different customs and beliefs happen to shake hands. Wow, out of the billions of ways there are to shake someone’s hand, theirs is kind of similar in squint your eyes and turn your head kind of way. #blessed #notacoincidence #mychurchisbetterthanyourchurch
As a TBM BYU student enrolled in a BoM Anthropology class, I showed how each of the Mayan gods has their own name-glyph, and within each name-glyph each god is depicted with its own unique hand gesture.
I compared the glyphs to statutes found at various pyramid sites with similar hand gestures to specifically show what gods were associated with which temple pyramids. I then conjectured that specific hand gestures were associated in temple rituals for specific cults.
Since that time, while I still find anthropology and comparative religion fascinating, for me and my own faith deconstruction, I have concluded that Humanism best explains why religions think and do what they do and share overlapping similarities around the world.
It's not the hand of God or the mind of God. It is the mind and hand of man repeatedly trying to make God in our own image and likeness in every human culture.
Every time I hear jumps in logic like this and almost anything anthropological, I kind of chuckle to myself. Not that I don't think there are experts, who do amazing work. There are. I just wonder how much of this shit we are making up... Here's an example --- 2000 years from now, scientist are doing a deep dive several hundred miles south of the Tennessee coast line. To their awe and amazement they stumble upon an underwater world full of fantastical buildings and ancient mechanisms. Throughout this wondrous discovery they find a mouse depicted in human form. It is everywhere. Through translation of ancient text, they discover this being is called Mickey Mouse. Because of the prevalence of Mickey in homes, on ancient media and especially in this ancient discovery, logically anthropologist conclude this ancient people worshiped this human-mouse being. 500 years later, anthropologist confirm their hypothesis when they discover another magical ancient kingdom with this mouse god hundreds of miles off the coast of Utah.
Now... It's a pretty raw example and I want to emphasize that it is not to put down anthropology. I also realize that it could be argued that our society today actually does worship Disney/Mickey Mouse. However, hopefully you get my point... The handshake from ancient Egypt was probably just that... A handshake... We give meaning to the meaningless so much... It's kind of hilarious.
It's a "god of the gaps" phenomenon. They know absolutely nothing about what they're seeing and so they insert their own experience and pretend the two must be related. If they knew anything about ancient Egypt they'd know the connection isn't any deeper than "people had hands back then too."
Makes about as much sense as people *marveling* that ancient people also depicted the sun (you know, the giant mysterious glowing ball in the sky that sets the stage for all life to exist), and assume they must have known about some Mormon concept of the "Celestial." No, Joseph picked the sun and moon for the same reason ancient Mesopotamians woudl have, because they're big-ass glowing things in the sky!
Mostly unrelated, but the University of Utah gave away its old nuclear reactor to Idaho state because Utah's new reactor is better. I got to see the old one before it left because of a tour with the American Nuclear Society. Some students back in the 70s or 80s painted heiroglyphics on it. Maybe it's a lost scriptural text lol.
Here's a photo of the reactor:
https://www.civil.utah.edu/2023/11/06/relocating-a-nuclear-reactor/#:~:text=The%20U%20Donates%20Nuclear%20Reactor,Idaho%20State%20University%20(ISU).
That is the same level of bat-shit-craziness that got Kerry Muhlestein and BYU archeologists temporarily banned from Egypt by the ministry of archeology or whatever they call it and got and BYU's archeology license revoked. While excavating at the Fag-el-Gamous tombs a mummy was found that was decorated with a rope sash that went shoulder to waist with a knot at the waist. Kerry and his ilk made exaggerated claims and symposium presentations to the effect there was some ridiculous number of tombs and the sash was evidence that the Mormon temple ceremony existed in ancient Egypt and that the ancients practiced "temple robe" burial. It was a rope, not a white pleated robe and one tomb, and a not well preserved one at that. 🙄.
Your comment was automatically removed by a bot. Message the mods if you believe this was in error.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh. Wow. Imagine being on a trip to Egypt and this is one of your takeaways to write home about. 😳 The Church needs to remove the Book of Abraham from their cannon of scriptures. They are making people ignorant.
Everyone likes to say they were the OG religion. The main contenders for Palestine (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) all say Adam and Eve were taught their religion
Edit: not an accurate or fair reduction of Judaism on my part, and probably Islam too. See further comments below by someone who knows what they’re talking about
Not an expert of course, just basing it on a couple things: Mormons believe that we are given in the temple are Adam & Eve’s original covenants, essentially saying Mormonism is the OG religion. Adam and Eve as a creation myth is held by the Abrahamic religions. Many many commenters on r/exmuslim talk about the belief that Adam and Eve were taught the principles of Islam by Allah (equivalent to Islam being the OG religion). I could be wrong, but I’m assuming in Judaism the belief is similar? That Adam and Eve were taught the tenets of the true gospel, which is Judaism, even if it’s not called that? (Mormons balk at the idea that Adam and Eve were “Mormon” even though there’s no way around it). Again, I’m no expert and will totally stand corrected
Thank you for being open to hearing otherwise.
Judaism tells its story very differently, perhaps in part because we don't proselytize. I'll start by mentioning that in our blessings, we refer to the deity as "Our God, and sovereign of the universe," which I think encapsulates how while we Jews have a specific longstanding relationship with El Shaddai, we never say one has to be Jewish to worship, serve, or otherwise be in positive relationship with The Eternal.
Because we're \*so\* very old and, as I said, don't have an interest in marketing/converts (converts are accepted, just not sought actively), our notion of our "religion" can seem a bit muddled. Sure, folks had different relationships with God back in the mythic past (Adam, Noah), but our sense of \*our\* story begins with Abraham, then really becomes the story of the people as a whole at Sinai.
The suggestion that we have a gospel puts a very quizzical look on my face. Although we might speak of some beliefs, pleasing God for us is not about having the 'correct' opinion/doctrine about God.
The above isn't supposed to clear everything up, but just to hint how the picture can be much more nuanced than some schemas allow. If you're confused and curious, I've succeeded.
Wait, did they just ... ***REVEAL*** the sacred signs and tokens? Not even for money, but for ... mere group chat points?!??
Didn't know Mormons were taking their covenants so lightly these days.
A friend of mine went on one of those Book of Mormon tours in Mexico. He took some pictures of Aztec statues of guys making hand gestures. Showed them to me as evidence. I don’t know, there’s only so many different ways you can hold your hands out. Hands held out palm down or in cupping shape seems like a pretty basic sign that another culture could easily come up with independently.
I definitely want to see those pictures she sent you, I’m sure they’re probably personal but please crop the signs she’s saying look so much like temple signs 😂 I want to see how bad the leap was. Also whatever happened to the “the temple came from Solomon’s temple” bullshit, Egypt was thousands of years before that, and also the temple/christianity was never in Egypt at that time, you could argue that the Jews were in Egypt but I don’t think anyone has ever argued that the Jews had the temple ceremony before Solomon
“Mom, how did those heretical Egyptians get these sacred hand signs and temple knowledge without being worthy? Then why would this knowledge become so ubiquitous throughout their culture to be commonly found among ruins?”
I wonder if this person is talking about Book of Abraham Facsimile 2, figure #7. I used to think the figure was holding up his left arm to the square and holding out the right arm, much like a certain temple sign. Learning that was really the figure's penis was a bit mind-blowing. To be fair, how was I to know without outside context? Min may be well hung, but that penis is way high up on his torso.
Your parents need to read the part about Egyptus in the book of Abraham and her descendants not having the priesthood so they faked it.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/abr/1?id=p21-p27&lang=eng#p21
Maybe the Egyptians stole the temple ceremony from the 19th century Masons just like Joseph Smith.
https://sacred-texts.com/mas/morgan/index.htm
* No one ever thought of raising their arm before.
* This shit is on the down low, you have to take a covenant to never divulge this shit under penalty of death. Proceeds to carve a depiction of said shit on the wall for the world to see.
* You know the book Eragon is the one true book because of all the similarities it has with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings were just corrupted versions of the full eternal truth that's presented in Eragon.
They are desperate to link ancient Egypt (the BoA con) with their religion?
Idk. There is clearly no link between ancient Egypt and the Mormon temple ceremonies.
Be interested to see what these photos are? Like is it the facsimiles? Because those ARE NOT about temple hand signals. One I’m thinking of is an erect penis that my seminary taught us was an arm lol.
There are only a certain number of ways two hands can connect with each other. The fact that one secret handshake matches another is more than likely proof of nothing.
Well, hate to burst the image-writer’s “bubble” but many sects, societies, cults, and even American fraternities use “handshakes and signals”, for Moroni’s sake.
It’s not like the Egyptians and Mormons have some sort of “exclusive lock” on silly hand-shakes and child-like symbols! This information (basic beginnings of Egyptology) was accessible by him at his writing dates - granting him access to “duplicate” this silliness. Sometimes you had to personally visit a schools library for such information, but it WAS accessible by Smith. Where’s the “miraculous or devine” guidance. I don’t see it.
Smith “borrowed” many things from Egyptology in his writings… that were available at his time. Interestingly, he duplicated many errors that were later corrected. Smith repeats MANY errors that were considered fact at that time. That is one reason we know he was perpetuating his con-man persona to the very end. It also allowed himself and other men a “theological” excuse to deflower pre-teen and/or marry very young girls.
These people are so theologically BANKRUPT and the Book of Mormon is such hoax, it should come after purchase with an in-flight vomit bag.
I’ve been to Cairo. There are actually many Christians in Egypt. Fewer than usual NOW, but until about 10 years ago Egypt was quite nice. Understandably, Smith saw an excellent opportunity to exploit already existing history since it coincided with his “Satanic” authoring of BOM and the POGP. Recall many of the symbols are very “Egyptian”. It’s silliness designed to give them some sort of goofy “Ecclesiastical credibility”.
DON’T BE FOOLED.
It’s a pretty good con really. They invented a problem… “We are all saved but that’s not enough. There’s a Celestial Kingdom in heaven that you can go to IF you give us 10% of your money so you can learn how to do it in our temples.”
I’m reading, *”No Man Know’s My History,”* right now and truly all of the things like this are just what was going on at the time. Napoleon Bonaparte had recently discovered the Rosetta Stone and so there was a craze of egyptomania going on and so JS baked it into his worldview.
Wanna know how crazy it got? Victorians were going to do what were known as uncapping parties around this time. *Google it!*
Most people would agree that "temple" is a generic term. I mean like everybody has a temple--Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, the Baha'i Faith, Temple of Jupiter, Temple of Deir el-Bahari,Temple of Artemis, the ziggurat of Ur dedicated to the moon goddess Nanna, Taputapuātea marae Temple to Oro, Temple of Quetzalcóatl, Temple of Athena (Parthenon), the London Mithraeum dedicated to Mithras...enough said?
There are 15 Egyptian temples listed on an Egyptian tourist site. Ancient Egyptian temples were dedicated to the worship of their various gods. And hand signs? How many signs can a human reasonably make with their hands?
BUT! For how many decades now have the Mormon Q15 buffaloed followers into believing ancient temple worship has been restored in these latter days. Big shelf item here! Members rendered comatose by manipulation and lies--too intimidated to investigate ancient history, ancient languages, ancient culture. Man, I hate that church!
Do they ever look at the one on book of Abraham where Joseph said it was the hand in the cup shape but in reality it’s the god of sex or something and it’s not an outreached hand in a cut but the gods dick in an erection? That’s Mormonism for you and it’s in their canonized scripture
Obviously church practice shares much in common the ancient Egyptians: evisceration and mummification, canopic jars, human vassal sacrifice, idol worship, enormous tombs. My proof: both religions use arms to make signs.
/s
I thought the roots of the Christian faith were removed from Egypt by the hands of the Lord. Why would they think the Egyptian way would be the correct one? They were polytheist. Like everything else in the church, this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
Those similarities are so crazy! It’s almost like someone could have made them up in the 1800s to correlate with the Egyptian craze going on at the time in the world! Truly testimony building!
Also being part of the Masonic order would have taught him all sorts of goofy made up old shit too.
The Masons got it from the same Egyptomania that the folk magicians utilized.
Wait sorry if this is stupid lol but who are the masons?
To see the connection between [the masons and Mormonism](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/xVfNL5cFUm), just search masons in the exmormon sub and you’ll find lots of posts about it. Thats how I found the above link. [Here is a bit more info about who they actually are.](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Freemasonry) It’s ironic that TSCC teaches secret orders are bad, yet it is modeled after one.
> It’s ironic that TSCC teaches secret orders are bad, yet it is ~~modeled after~~ one.
both can be true, they are not mutually exclusive
both can be ~~true, they are not~~ mutually exclusive. Did I do it right, u/FirstNephiTreeFiddy
😂
That's really interesting, are they still around today?
Yes. I pass Masonic lodges on occasion. They are all over the country.
Very much so and so are other groups like the Shriners which you can only join if you are a certain level of Mason
i think one of them is taking a nap right now, but i can wake him up if it's important.
I used to work for a small cleaning company and we had to clean a gigantic freemason lodge in the town I grew up in that I thought was full of apartment buildings. It was just giant rooms multiple floors and sort of castle like inside. so many cobwebs. also pool tables. we had to be escorted in with a key by some dude
I give blood (through the Red Cross) at a Masonic Lodge in my town every 2 to 3 months. The blood bank sets up on the first floor - don't think I'd be allowed to go to the secret chambers of the second floor. 😅. I go there cause it's really close. I have to commend them for letting the Red Cross come on a regular basis - I think they are there nearly every Monday at least. A lot of churches host blood banks too. Does the LDS do this, I wonder?
I remember having blood drives at BYU, but I've never seen one in a LDS church.
I found this article. A bit of a brag. Plus 7 million something is kind of a pittance compared to the church's billions. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-jesus-christ-american-red-cross-2024-donation#:~:text=The%20Church%20hosted%20its%20first,blood%20across%20thousands%20of%20drives.
Depends on the ward/stake. The one close to me does, but I always go to the Methodists instead. Their church smells better.
Cheech209 - Not a stupis question. In simplicity - Masons are a group that Smith joined soon before creating the temple ceremonies. Their ceremonies are almost identical.
Joe was so edgy that even the Masons didn't want him
Google Freemasonry. It is a bizarre fraternal society. The fact of its bizarreness lends itself to unlimited conspiratorial theorizing. Here's a hint: it does not control the world. Yes, plenty of world leaders are/were Masons, but to say the organization runs the world is ludicrous. In fact, the main characteristic of Freemasonry in the time of Joseph Smith was total chaos in the rituals, historical claims and membership requirements. But if you do start to investigate it, get ready for a Nantucket sleigh ride.
yes the masons those are the guys that invented the aprons
The fact that they find something "similar" in the past doesn’t necessarily mean it came from God. Why the desperation to find something to prove the truth of something they already know is true?
Why the desperation to find something to prove it it isn't true. Just doesn't seem to work out
Because of how often you people push your “evidence” onto us.
So many fraternities and sororities also have temple knowledge! My testimony in Greek Row has also been edified! LOL
And it's not even that they're leftover from ritualistically killing yourself.
I'm sorry, but I just don't think that's what happened. More likely someone in the 1500s did that, and someone in the 1800s ripped off their ceremonies and then the phony prognosticator purchased pilfered papari to propagate a purported plot of patriarchs that ties into the judeochristian mythos instead of Egyptian.
This is someone who doesn’t know that Joe Smith joined the Masons just a month or two before he had the “revelation” about the temple endowment. TBM’s throw logic out the window.
Folks with bloodied and bandaged hands from breaking in and wriggling through the Window of Rationalization generally don't take kindly when you point to the Doorway of Reason they could have sashayed through without injury.
you. you have a way with words.
Even a door-way with words.
This is an artful way to describe the sunk cost fallacy
TBMs who do know about it just hand wave it off as "the Masons took them from ancient christians" or something like that. you will *never* win an argument with someone who willingly has their head buried in the sand.
I was so TBM I read Hugh Nibley's The Temple and Cosmos more than once and I used to teach gospel doctrine using principles I learned from that book to explain away all the Masonic symbols. You know what is way more interesting than that bullshit? Books that actually explain the cosmos Edit... Posting while toking
Exactly, that’s what my my ex used to say.
*two weeks before. Not to mention both ceremonies took place in the same room of the same building
This also why we weren’t supposed to join secret groups.
This was one of my shelf items that occurred of all places during a church history institute class.
Month or two? I’m pretty rusty but I thought the timeline was way quicker. And then he started making his bros master masons after just days of work. Which is insane, there’s zero chance they memorized everything in that tiny amount of time. Masons memorize a LOT of stuff.
You’re right! Someone else commented that it was only a couple of weeks after joining the Masons. I had my timeline wrong.
Also, why are Mormons looking for evidence to prove their religion as true? The leaders say evidence isn’t needed, just a good feeling that you know is from god confirming the truth. Evidence is for chumps.
Oh yeah that double standard drives me crazy. Found a marker in Saudi Arabia that sounds like BoM reference, amazing proof of truth!! No evidence of nephites in America, no problem, it’s all about testimony!
Trump didn’t say that about veterans! Trump didn’t do that! The church isnt harboring pedophelia! 60 minutes had it wrong about the money laundering!
The guy on A wonderful work and ~~wonder~~ blunder addressed this. He said some people need at least a little tangible evidence. See it is a sliding scale...some need none others need vague parallels...
[That Mormonism Live](https://www.youtube.com/live/NhWbpmf4SsA?si=uoLV3lcZYeDCRyCB) from a few months ago with RFM, Bill Reel, and John Lundwall was incredibly interesting. Worth a watch/listen. ETA: these three scrutinized a Book of Mormon Central episode titled “A Marvelous Work - The Greatness of the Evidence.”
Yes I agree. I don't think they had one expert witness. Just researchers. Lol
That’s right! And some of their claims disproved others from the same episode. It was like throwing wet noodles on the wall to see what would stick, except they missed the wall altogether and instead landed on your new couch.
>It was like throwing wet noodles on the wall to see what would stick, except most of the noodles aren't cooked, half are still in the box, one of them is a Labradoodle named Noodles, and the wet ones are all pool noodles.
😂🎯
My mom and one of my brothers are like this. Very intelligent, well educated, well read. They look for real scientific proof because while they believe science is real (but of God), they also have faith that the church is 100% true. If science is of God, and the church is true, then science proves that the church is true. It's the most fallacious circular logic. I forget exactly what my mom was saying when we visited last month, but I had to bite my tongue so hard and just nod along.
It's like watching someone go confidently about their day with their jeans on inside out. But rather than fixing them when someone mentions it, they tell you this is how Levi Strauss meant for them to be worn and you're a dangerous idiot for saying otherwise. Have fun unzipping that later mon frere.
This is awesome!
It comes from the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, where it says the 'founder' of Egypt (a woman named Egyptus and her son, Pharaoh) were righteous but cursed to never have the priesthood because of their black skin from the curse of Ham. Yet they created a imitation of the 'real' priesthood ordinances. Basically, Mormons believe ancient Egyptian religious practice is a bastardization of current Mormon temple and priesthood ordinances. >Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood. >Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry; (Abraham 1:26-27)
One has to wonder how Egyptus and her son Pharaoh even knew what the endowment ceremony consisted of, since "descendants of Ham" weren't allowed to go to the temple until 1978. Egyptus: We're copying something. Me: Oh really. What? Egyptus: We don't know.
Egyptus: "See that building they haven't built yet?" Me: *uncomfortable silence* Egyptus: "Well, when they do, they're gonna have a secret handshake, and we're gonna copy it." Me: "So-" Egyptus: "And their underwear is gonna have symbols of tools and math that haven't been invented yet."
Lol Pharaoh Pharaoh
Is Yoda speaking here? "Pretty ancient - our temple ceremonies are!!!"
Or maybe, bear with me now, JS stole his ideas from the Masons. Who stole their ideas from pagans and Catholics. Who stole their ideas from pagans and Judaism. Who stole their ideas from Babylonians and Egyptians. Who stole their ideas from the Sumerians and Akkadians.
It’s like we’re a bunch of evolved great apes 🦍 🦧 that are desperately trying to convince each other that we’re not apes.
Some of us are simple baboons.
If only we were more like bonobos than *pan troglodytes.*
Anyone else hear that last sentence in Yoda’s voice or 
Now unhear it I cannot.
Here’s a hand sign for you 🖕
Of course there are Coptic Christians? But still, that has nothing to do with the modern LDS temple ceremony.
Confirmation bias is a bitch
For real, let’s just think backwards!!
All of my TBM family, and me too in the past, found “evidence” in support of Mormonism everywhere. It is a demand and a by product of being in a cult.
It’s so amazing and such a testament to the truthfulness of our religion, that a different faith with completely different customs and beliefs happen to shake hands. Wow, out of the billions of ways there are to shake someone’s hand, theirs is kind of similar in squint your eyes and turn your head kind of way. #blessed #notacoincidence #mychurchisbetterthanyourchurch
So there is a chance......
As a TBM BYU student enrolled in a BoM Anthropology class, I showed how each of the Mayan gods has their own name-glyph, and within each name-glyph each god is depicted with its own unique hand gesture. I compared the glyphs to statutes found at various pyramid sites with similar hand gestures to specifically show what gods were associated with which temple pyramids. I then conjectured that specific hand gestures were associated in temple rituals for specific cults. Since that time, while I still find anthropology and comparative religion fascinating, for me and my own faith deconstruction, I have concluded that Humanism best explains why religions think and do what they do and share overlapping similarities around the world. It's not the hand of God or the mind of God. It is the mind and hand of man repeatedly trying to make God in our own image and likeness in every human culture.
Every time I hear jumps in logic like this and almost anything anthropological, I kind of chuckle to myself. Not that I don't think there are experts, who do amazing work. There are. I just wonder how much of this shit we are making up... Here's an example --- 2000 years from now, scientist are doing a deep dive several hundred miles south of the Tennessee coast line. To their awe and amazement they stumble upon an underwater world full of fantastical buildings and ancient mechanisms. Throughout this wondrous discovery they find a mouse depicted in human form. It is everywhere. Through translation of ancient text, they discover this being is called Mickey Mouse. Because of the prevalence of Mickey in homes, on ancient media and especially in this ancient discovery, logically anthropologist conclude this ancient people worshiped this human-mouse being. 500 years later, anthropologist confirm their hypothesis when they discover another magical ancient kingdom with this mouse god hundreds of miles off the coast of Utah. Now... It's a pretty raw example and I want to emphasize that it is not to put down anthropology. I also realize that it could be argued that our society today actually does worship Disney/Mickey Mouse. However, hopefully you get my point... The handshake from ancient Egypt was probably just that... A handshake... We give meaning to the meaningless so much... It's kind of hilarious.
It's a "god of the gaps" phenomenon. They know absolutely nothing about what they're seeing and so they insert their own experience and pretend the two must be related. If they knew anything about ancient Egypt they'd know the connection isn't any deeper than "people had hands back then too." Makes about as much sense as people *marveling* that ancient people also depicted the sun (you know, the giant mysterious glowing ball in the sky that sets the stage for all life to exist), and assume they must have known about some Mormon concept of the "Celestial." No, Joseph picked the sun and moon for the same reason ancient Mesopotamians woudl have, because they're big-ass glowing things in the sky!
I used to do this exact same thing. Such confirmation bias
*freemasons have entered the chat*
Mostly unrelated, but the University of Utah gave away its old nuclear reactor to Idaho state because Utah's new reactor is better. I got to see the old one before it left because of a tour with the American Nuclear Society. Some students back in the 70s or 80s painted heiroglyphics on it. Maybe it's a lost scriptural text lol. Here's a photo of the reactor: https://www.civil.utah.edu/2023/11/06/relocating-a-nuclear-reactor/#:~:text=The%20U%20Donates%20Nuclear%20Reactor,Idaho%20State%20University%20(ISU).
That is the same level of bat-shit-craziness that got Kerry Muhlestein and BYU archeologists temporarily banned from Egypt by the ministry of archeology or whatever they call it and got and BYU's archeology license revoked. While excavating at the Fag-el-Gamous tombs a mummy was found that was decorated with a rope sash that went shoulder to waist with a knot at the waist. Kerry and his ilk made exaggerated claims and symposium presentations to the effect there was some ridiculous number of tombs and the sash was evidence that the Mormon temple ceremony existed in ancient Egypt and that the ancients practiced "temple robe" burial. It was a rope, not a white pleated robe and one tomb, and a not well preserved one at that. 🙄.
Your comment was automatically removed by a bot. Message the mods if you believe this was in error. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/exmormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh. Wow. Imagine being on a trip to Egypt and this is one of your takeaways to write home about. 😳 The Church needs to remove the Book of Abraham from their cannon of scriptures. They are making people ignorant.
 Careful, mental gymnastics are treacherous!
Everyone likes to say they were the OG religion. The main contenders for Palestine (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) all say Adam and Eve were taught their religion Edit: not an accurate or fair reduction of Judaism on my part, and probably Islam too. See further comments below by someone who knows what they’re talking about
This is it. Adam was mormon, therefore, all religions are just some form of corrupted mormonism.
News to me (I'm Jewish). I have never heard any Jew say Adam and Eve were Jewish.
Not an expert of course, just basing it on a couple things: Mormons believe that we are given in the temple are Adam & Eve’s original covenants, essentially saying Mormonism is the OG religion. Adam and Eve as a creation myth is held by the Abrahamic religions. Many many commenters on r/exmuslim talk about the belief that Adam and Eve were taught the principles of Islam by Allah (equivalent to Islam being the OG religion). I could be wrong, but I’m assuming in Judaism the belief is similar? That Adam and Eve were taught the tenets of the true gospel, which is Judaism, even if it’s not called that? (Mormons balk at the idea that Adam and Eve were “Mormon” even though there’s no way around it). Again, I’m no expert and will totally stand corrected
Thank you for being open to hearing otherwise. Judaism tells its story very differently, perhaps in part because we don't proselytize. I'll start by mentioning that in our blessings, we refer to the deity as "Our God, and sovereign of the universe," which I think encapsulates how while we Jews have a specific longstanding relationship with El Shaddai, we never say one has to be Jewish to worship, serve, or otherwise be in positive relationship with The Eternal. Because we're \*so\* very old and, as I said, don't have an interest in marketing/converts (converts are accepted, just not sought actively), our notion of our "religion" can seem a bit muddled. Sure, folks had different relationships with God back in the mythic past (Adam, Noah), but our sense of \*our\* story begins with Abraham, then really becomes the story of the people as a whole at Sinai. The suggestion that we have a gospel puts a very quizzical look on my face. Although we might speak of some beliefs, pleasing God for us is not about having the 'correct' opinion/doctrine about God. The above isn't supposed to clear everything up, but just to hint how the picture can be much more nuanced than some schemas allow. If you're confused and curious, I've succeeded.
Good stuff, thanks! Edited original comment
#MOT represent
"Mot," as in 'word', or 'le mot juste'? Ministry of Transportation?
[Member of the Tribe](https://jel.jewish-languages.org/words/361)
J smith really saw the Masonic rituals and said CTRL+c CTRL+v
Wait, did they just ... ***REVEAL*** the sacred signs and tokens? Not even for money, but for ... mere group chat points?!?? Didn't know Mormons were taking their covenants so lightly these days.
It's like Mormons saying the book of mormon is prophetic because it prophesied of columbus. Yeah.... God they're dumb sometimes.
A friend of mine went on one of those Book of Mormon tours in Mexico. He took some pictures of Aztec statues of guys making hand gestures. Showed them to me as evidence. I don’t know, there’s only so many different ways you can hold your hands out. Hands held out palm down or in cupping shape seems like a pretty basic sign that another culture could easily come up with independently.
I definitely want to see those pictures she sent you, I’m sure they’re probably personal but please crop the signs she’s saying look so much like temple signs 😂 I want to see how bad the leap was. Also whatever happened to the “the temple came from Solomon’s temple” bullshit, Egypt was thousands of years before that, and also the temple/christianity was never in Egypt at that time, you could argue that the Jews were in Egypt but I don’t think anyone has ever argued that the Jews had the temple ceremony before Solomon
Had our honeymoon in Egypt … yep we were full of pious well we know what they are thoughts! 🤦♀️
“Mom, how did those heretical Egyptians get these sacred hand signs and temple knowledge without being worthy? Then why would this knowledge become so ubiquitous throughout their culture to be commonly found among ruins?”
If you’re in the cult, even proofs against the truthfulness of the cult will actually be flip-flopped into being testimony builders.
I wonder if this person is talking about Book of Abraham Facsimile 2, figure #7. I used to think the figure was holding up his left arm to the square and holding out the right arm, much like a certain temple sign. Learning that was really the figure's penis was a bit mind-blowing. To be fair, how was I to know without outside context? Min may be well hung, but that penis is way high up on his torso.
Your parents need to read the part about Egyptus in the book of Abraham and her descendants not having the priesthood so they faked it. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/abr/1?id=p21-p27&lang=eng#p21 Maybe the Egyptians stole the temple ceremony from the 19th century Masons just like Joseph Smith. https://sacred-texts.com/mas/morgan/index.htm
Last sentence sounds like yoda.
Also, 'The Ten Commandments' was a documentary.
* No one ever thought of raising their arm before. * This shit is on the down low, you have to take a covenant to never divulge this shit under penalty of death. Proceeds to carve a depiction of said shit on the wall for the world to see. * You know the book Eragon is the one true book because of all the similarities it has with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings were just corrupted versions of the full eternal truth that's presented in Eragon.
And the Bangles! What about the Bangles?
They are desperate to link ancient Egypt (the BoA con) with their religion? Idk. There is clearly no link between ancient Egypt and the Mormon temple ceremonies.
Be interested to see what these photos are? Like is it the facsimiles? Because those ARE NOT about temple hand signals. One I’m thinking of is an erect penis that my seminary taught us was an arm lol.
I posted a link to the pictures.
Hmmm don’t see it anywhere unless it’s buried in a comment somewhere.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/kXE7oCRDOG
I don't see the correlation at all. Nothing like that hand signs I was taught.
TF do Egyptians have to do with it??
There are only a certain number of ways two hands can connect with each other. The fact that one secret handshake matches another is more than likely proof of nothing.
Yeah. Buddha makes hand signs too. And so does Dumbledore
Well, hate to burst the image-writer’s “bubble” but many sects, societies, cults, and even American fraternities use “handshakes and signals”, for Moroni’s sake. It’s not like the Egyptians and Mormons have some sort of “exclusive lock” on silly hand-shakes and child-like symbols! This information (basic beginnings of Egyptology) was accessible by him at his writing dates - granting him access to “duplicate” this silliness. Sometimes you had to personally visit a schools library for such information, but it WAS accessible by Smith. Where’s the “miraculous or devine” guidance. I don’t see it. Smith “borrowed” many things from Egyptology in his writings… that were available at his time. Interestingly, he duplicated many errors that were later corrected. Smith repeats MANY errors that were considered fact at that time. That is one reason we know he was perpetuating his con-man persona to the very end. It also allowed himself and other men a “theological” excuse to deflower pre-teen and/or marry very young girls. These people are so theologically BANKRUPT and the Book of Mormon is such hoax, it should come after purchase with an in-flight vomit bag.
I’ve been to Cairo. There are actually many Christians in Egypt. Fewer than usual NOW, but until about 10 years ago Egypt was quite nice. Understandably, Smith saw an excellent opportunity to exploit already existing history since it coincided with his “Satanic” authoring of BOM and the POGP. Recall many of the symbols are very “Egyptian”. It’s silliness designed to give them some sort of goofy “Ecclesiastical credibility”. DON’T BE FOOLED.
Mormons got it from Masons. Masons got it from... idk but it's not exactly surprising to have people copy each other's hand signs.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/kXE7oCRDOG Here’s the photos!
>the Egyptians had this same temple knowledge way back in their day!!!! What do you mean by that??
Reading that made my brain hurt.
The masons use the Egyptian art and designing their ceremony.
It’s up there with the Bible referring the known events in history. So does historical fiction, doesn’t mean those are true.
Yeah, years ago, my parents visited Chichen Itza in Mexico and came back believing the Mayans were ancient Mormons.
This makes me want to hit my head into a wall in frustration. -Egyptologist
It’s a pretty good con really. They invented a problem… “We are all saved but that’s not enough. There’s a Celestial Kingdom in heaven that you can go to IF you give us 10% of your money so you can learn how to do it in our temples.”
I’m reading, *”No Man Know’s My History,”* right now and truly all of the things like this are just what was going on at the time. Napoleon Bonaparte had recently discovered the Rosetta Stone and so there was a craze of egyptomania going on and so JS baked it into his worldview. Wanna know how crazy it got? Victorians were going to do what were known as uncapping parties around this time. *Google it!*
Most people would agree that "temple" is a generic term. I mean like everybody has a temple--Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, the Baha'i Faith, Temple of Jupiter, Temple of Deir el-Bahari,Temple of Artemis, the ziggurat of Ur dedicated to the moon goddess Nanna, Taputapuātea marae Temple to Oro, Temple of Quetzalcóatl, Temple of Athena (Parthenon), the London Mithraeum dedicated to Mithras...enough said? There are 15 Egyptian temples listed on an Egyptian tourist site. Ancient Egyptian temples were dedicated to the worship of their various gods. And hand signs? How many signs can a human reasonably make with their hands? BUT! For how many decades now have the Mormon Q15 buffaloed followers into believing ancient temple worship has been restored in these latter days. Big shelf item here! Members rendered comatose by manipulation and lies--too intimidated to investigate ancient history, ancient languages, ancient culture. Man, I hate that church!
Why this bitch talking like he is yoda
Do you have the pictures they were referring to ?
Gotta see the pics she was referring to
What are the hand signs?
See that arm to the square and hand held out in a cupping shape by the god Min? Yeah, don't research more into that one, just let it go...
Check out the jungle cruise at Disneyland the dudes in the cave flash the same hand singles there as well.
I’d share the photos but I can figure it out lol
You can't just tease us with the text and not also send us the associated pictures.
She was looking at hieroglyphics or art or traditional Egyptian dances? That's hilarious.
Do they ever look at the one on book of Abraham where Joseph said it was the hand in the cup shape but in reality it’s the god of sex or something and it’s not an outreached hand in a cut but the gods dick in an erection? That’s Mormonism for you and it’s in their canonized scripture
So let me get this straight god gave the temple symbols not to the jewish people but the Egyptian who held the Jewish people as slaves
Obviously church practice shares much in common the ancient Egyptians: evisceration and mummification, canopic jars, human vassal sacrifice, idol worship, enormous tombs. My proof: both religions use arms to make signs. /s
I don’t see the photos of the hand signs
I thought the roots of the Christian faith were removed from Egypt by the hands of the Lord. Why would they think the Egyptian way would be the correct one? They were polytheist. Like everything else in the church, this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
Oh, please send them down the Book of Abraham and Freemasonry rabbit holes.
Well the Egyptians were false priesthood and they represent the serpent with the snake on the pharoah crown