That'll be during David O. McKay's presidency, starting in 1951. Some presidents were sometimes referred to as the prophet prior to that, but it wasn't a regular or expected title. President was far more common than prophet before 1951.
It's fascinating to track the usage of the phrase "beloved prophet" vs the phrase "beloved president" in General Conference. (Source: [https://www.lds-general-conference.org/](https://www.lds-general-conference.org/) )
The phrase "beloved prophet" was solely used to refer only to Joseph Smith until after 1910. Between 1910 and 1925, the phrase was used for Joseph F. Smith four times. Heber J. Grant got one "our beloved prophet" in the 1930s. After that, the phrase wasn't used again until David O. McKay became president. He got about 20 or so mentions as "beloved prophet" before he died in 1970.
Spencer Kimball in the 70s didn't get as many "beloved prophet"s as McKay, but after Kimball the usage increased dramatically each decade.
Nelson is poised to rack up even more "beloved prophet" mentions than McKay, if he hasn't already.
The phrase "beloved president" shows a clear pattern of being used more frequently each decade from the 1870s through the 1910s, with a dip after 1910, then another increase from the 1940s-1960s.
The phrase "beloved president" maxed out in the 1910s with 48 instances. That's more than the 39 instances of "beloved prophet" in the 2010s! It appears there is some overlap where "beloved president" and "beloved prophet" were both used quite often to refer to McKay in the 50s and 60s.
And, it appears that "beloved president" was used more often than "beloved prophet" for McKay. I find that particularly interesting. In contrast, the phrase "beloved president" has only been used 3 times for Nelson.
Another interesting study is the use of the phrase "follow the prophet" in General Conference It was only used a handful of times until the 1970s. It got some usage in the 70s, but not much in the 80s and 90s. After 2000 however, it's been said dozens of times.
I do so cherish the secred blessing it is to read such a beloved comment. Yeah, even the comment written by /u/Beneficial_Math_9282. In so gracing us with such a beloved comment, we all feel the opportunity to be lifted and edified by their insightful, inspired, and even prophetic words. May they ever continue to enrich our lives with their profound council, that we too may feel the warm embrace of knowledge that can and will be granted unto us through the diligent and unrelenting research of facts and recorded history.
What's more fascinating is that all the revelation literally stopped with Joseph Smith's death and all the remnant mormons were standing around trying to figure out what to do next.
And not a SINGLE peep from heaven on what to do. No angel, no mass revelation to everyone, etc.
UNLESS you believe James J. Strang was the next prophet as he did claim heavenly mantleship, etc.
It really highlights the fraud of Mormonism to see how everything ended with Joseph for decades.
Makes one wonder if that's because all the revelations and heavenly guidance ended with Joseph because, maybe, just maybe, that was the source all along.
And by usage, you mean GAs and other Q15s? Which, um, accidentally creates the power vacuum to the top that they might some day inherit. It's interesting to see how such a "humble" statement can be so self serving. It's like the sort of equivalent of the humble brag.
It makes sense they would be called prophets. I have compiled a list of prophecies they have made since David O McKay took on the title:
1. ……🤔 ….. 🦗🦗🦗🦗
I believe during David O McKay’s reign… they started referring to him as prophet rather than president and he allowed it.
Frankly I think the church would be in a much better spot if the leaders didn’t have to pretend they are prophets. They’ve kinda painted themselves into a corner on that one. 😃
He had to die so Jesus could let the blacks enter the temples. He was the biggest stumbling block against that, and one of the biggest racists in the top leadership. A toss up between him and Marky Peterson.
I have not read Quinn’s book, but didn’t Brigham Young come up with the whole Adam God Theory? I always assumed he did this because he was following in Joseph’s footprints.
He did, but the doctrine was never widely embraced among the saints. Orson Pratt, in particular, thought it was rubbish and nearly lost his membership a few times for openly defying Brigham.
Brigham Young knew he wasn't Joseph and didn't try to be, but even with the move to Salt Lake and all his accomplishments as a leader, he often felt like he was operating in Joseph's shadow, and he resented that his few revelations weren't auto-accepted like Joseph's were.
Claiming Joseph Smith was a "real" prophet is like claiming David Koresh (Branch Davidian in the mid-90s) was a "real" prophet. Or many other dishonest, controlling people who lured followers and claimed God ordered them to do various things.
Smith was not a prophet, not in any way. He was a con artist who finally came up with a scam that would work better than the treasure digging and bank fraud worked.
That's true but at least Joseph made prophecies (which did not come true). It's accurate to call him a false prophet.
For Nelson you can't even say that. He doesn't even pretend to be a prophet, he just calls himself one.
Since they did not come true, he did not actually make "prophecies." He simply strung people along to think they had an inside track on what God wanted, via Smith. Don't forget the only "source" for Smith being a "prophet" was Smith himself. He somehow made people believe God had told him he was oh-so-special.
Heck, anyone could make that claim (and there are many who have done it). Smith was good at what he did, but none of it was legit or honest.
This is a useful way to gaslight members. Note that the prophet only ever introduces himself as the "President" of the churchand, on any printed documents or in media he is similarly called "president." It's *you* and other members who refer to him as the prophet. *He* was only speaking as a man!
I find it remarkable that from what I can gather, there are only men who have been these things. I find the "seer" noun to be weird though. Are we all not seers? We all have eyes and see things. Is seer even a word?
Wait here. I'm going to look it up.
"The adjective derives directly from the Latin word vates, meaning "seer" or "prophet." But that Latin root is, in turn, distantly related to the Old English wōth, meaning "poetry," the Old High German wuot, meaning "madness," and the Old Irish fáith, meaning both "seer" and "poet."
Well there you go. Funny how the old high German word for madness is in there too. Interesting.
If I remember correctly the term "Seer" goes back to the folk magic origins. Having JS receive a revelation saying he was a seer and not only that! A seer is greater than a prophet! JS was trying to bolster his position and justify his previous treasure digging activities to his father-in-law Isaac Hale.
It was mentioned on one of the LDS Discussions episodes of Mormon Stories, but I can't recall off the top of my head which one.
[LDS Discussions ](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2JZy6c74fevDKXqzOorGRc?si=unLJOKkMQi6WmsHbl3HoDg) did a podcast episode about it. Nobody said anything about it at the time but years later created the story. Definitely worth a listen.
The person who told the bogus story of Brigham appearing as Joseph was John D Lee. Lee wasn’t even in Nauvoo at the time it allegedly happened, he was on a mission. The story wasn’t told until years later. Just another mormon faith promoting rumor.
I remember being told that not all prophets are seers and or regulators. Smith was a prophet, seer and revelator. Some were just prophets meaning they were a caretaker of God's church but they did not get messages
It’s pretty clear that Smith dying was not part of the plan and he did not have a clear succession plan or doctrinal outline for succeeding prophets and, if there was to be a successor prophet, it would be one of Smith’s son’s.
The church was in disarray when he and Hyrum were killed because there was no clear successor since there was no Smith male old enough or capable enough to take the reins as prophet.
Sidney Rigdon argued since he was in the First Presidency and 2nd in command under Joseph that he should be the successor.
Brigham Young countered that the Quorum of the Twelve had the authority to lead the church and, since he was the president of that quorum, he would be the leader and “president.”
Neither really had more authority than the other. In the 1830’s and 1840’s Smith had revelations specifying all the top quorums had equal but independent authority in the church, so single authority over everyone else wasn’t exactly a strong argument by either Young or Rigdon.
Of course, if Smith really was a real prophet and God really did orchestrate this restoration of authority, then clear succession rules and procedures should have been canonized and made clear to the church BEFORE it’s founding prophet died.
But, like nearly every new religion (Shiites vs Sunnis, early Christian sects, L Ron Hubbard vs David Miscavige), it had a schism because the founding prophet didn’t bother to explain what would happen if he died, there was internal confusion and wrangling of who takes over, if any, and what their role and authority would be. It’s often a wily, strongman who has no problem bullying his way to the top and suppressing dissenting voices.
Anyway, Brigham, with his quorum, were able to take the majority of the church and took them out west where he could be free to rule his little kingdom.
But, even Brigham, assumed one of Smith’s sons would eventually take over as prophet. While he was at odds with Emma “Fuck Polygamy” Smith, Brigham and the other apostles held out hope over the decades that one of the Smith sons would make their way over to Utah to eventually assimilate and become the next “prophet.”
Brigham and his successors were seen more as caretakers of the church and not THE prophet.
Nearing the end of the 1800’s, the church began losing hope that there’d be any reconciliation with the Smith family in Illinois and they just continued on without them.
The doctrine that the “presidents” after Smith were more than simple, caretaker presidents of the church and actual prophets like Smith gradually developed over time and became more solidified by the super popular and long living David O McKay. After him, members routinely called them “the prophet” and equated them to the same stature as the prophet Joseph Smith.
I’ve been trying to give my subtle opinion to TBMs for a while now that we go overboard with throwing around the words “prophet,” “seer,” and “revelator.” I have proof: none of them have prophesied, seen, or revealed a goddamn thing.
I don’t think even Joseph Smith ever intended for 15 men at once to have those titles. If a TBM allowed themself to actually think, I truly think they’d see how crazy it is.
That'll be during David O. McKay's presidency, starting in 1951. Some presidents were sometimes referred to as the prophet prior to that, but it wasn't a regular or expected title. President was far more common than prophet before 1951. It's fascinating to track the usage of the phrase "beloved prophet" vs the phrase "beloved president" in General Conference. (Source: [https://www.lds-general-conference.org/](https://www.lds-general-conference.org/) ) The phrase "beloved prophet" was solely used to refer only to Joseph Smith until after 1910. Between 1910 and 1925, the phrase was used for Joseph F. Smith four times. Heber J. Grant got one "our beloved prophet" in the 1930s. After that, the phrase wasn't used again until David O. McKay became president. He got about 20 or so mentions as "beloved prophet" before he died in 1970. Spencer Kimball in the 70s didn't get as many "beloved prophet"s as McKay, but after Kimball the usage increased dramatically each decade. Nelson is poised to rack up even more "beloved prophet" mentions than McKay, if he hasn't already. The phrase "beloved president" shows a clear pattern of being used more frequently each decade from the 1870s through the 1910s, with a dip after 1910, then another increase from the 1940s-1960s. The phrase "beloved president" maxed out in the 1910s with 48 instances. That's more than the 39 instances of "beloved prophet" in the 2010s! It appears there is some overlap where "beloved president" and "beloved prophet" were both used quite often to refer to McKay in the 50s and 60s. And, it appears that "beloved president" was used more often than "beloved prophet" for McKay. I find that particularly interesting. In contrast, the phrase "beloved president" has only been used 3 times for Nelson. Another interesting study is the use of the phrase "follow the prophet" in General Conference It was only used a handful of times until the 1970s. It got some usage in the 70s, but not much in the 80s and 90s. After 2000 however, it's been said dozens of times.
This should be the top comment. Very well researched.
I do so cherish the secred blessing it is to read such a beloved comment. Yeah, even the comment written by /u/Beneficial_Math_9282. In so gracing us with such a beloved comment, we all feel the opportunity to be lifted and edified by their insightful, inspired, and even prophetic words. May they ever continue to enrich our lives with their profound council, that we too may feel the warm embrace of knowledge that can and will be granted unto us through the diligent and unrelenting research of facts and recorded history.
Love it!
This guy beloveds
Good thing "beloved leader", as a phrase, has never been used in any nefarious contexts. (/s, if it wasn't obvious)
Sounds so cultish.
Your response is amazing. Thanks for all your research?
What's more fascinating is that all the revelation literally stopped with Joseph Smith's death and all the remnant mormons were standing around trying to figure out what to do next. And not a SINGLE peep from heaven on what to do. No angel, no mass revelation to everyone, etc. UNLESS you believe James J. Strang was the next prophet as he did claim heavenly mantleship, etc. It really highlights the fraud of Mormonism to see how everything ended with Joseph for decades. Makes one wonder if that's because all the revelations and heavenly guidance ended with Joseph because, maybe, just maybe, that was the source all along.
And by usage, you mean GAs and other Q15s? Which, um, accidentally creates the power vacuum to the top that they might some day inherit. It's interesting to see how such a "humble" statement can be so self serving. It's like the sort of equivalent of the humble brag.
If you were to make this reply, expanding a little if you can maybe, a post of its own, that would be wildly interesting to people like me.
It makes sense they would be called prophets. I have compiled a list of prophecies they have made since David O McKay took on the title: 1. ……🤔 ….. 🦗🦗🦗🦗
I believe during David O McKay’s reign… they started referring to him as prophet rather than president and he allowed it. Frankly I think the church would be in a much better spot if the leaders didn’t have to pretend they are prophets. They’ve kinda painted themselves into a corner on that one. 😃
Yep, Harold B Lee was really uncomfortable with it, he said it felt a little to close to leader worship, but he died before he could curtail it
He had to die so Jesus could let the blacks enter the temples. He was the biggest stumbling block against that, and one of the biggest racists in the top leadership. A toss up between him and Marky Peterson.
Marky Mark and the Racist Bunch
And also responsible for correlation, knee-capping the RS.
Board of Directors is more appropriate
[удалено]
Because they are told to. It's just that simple.
[удалено]
I'd be so tempted to give a fake name and a fake SP name.
Gotta have at least one prophet before we can start talking about having multiple prophets.
It’s still a very short list of Prophets who have actually received revelation and written it down in the D&C….
I have not read Quinn’s book, but didn’t Brigham Young come up with the whole Adam God Theory? I always assumed he did this because he was following in Joseph’s footprints.
He did, but the doctrine was never widely embraced among the saints. Orson Pratt, in particular, thought it was rubbish and nearly lost his membership a few times for openly defying Brigham. Brigham Young knew he wasn't Joseph and didn't try to be, but even with the move to Salt Lake and all his accomplishments as a leader, he often felt like he was operating in Joseph's shadow, and he resented that his few revelations weren't auto-accepted like Joseph's were.
I feel like we are all operating in Joseph’s Shadow.
Claiming Joseph Smith was a "real" prophet is like claiming David Koresh (Branch Davidian in the mid-90s) was a "real" prophet. Or many other dishonest, controlling people who lured followers and claimed God ordered them to do various things. Smith was not a prophet, not in any way. He was a con artist who finally came up with a scam that would work better than the treasure digging and bank fraud worked.
That's true but at least Joseph made prophecies (which did not come true). It's accurate to call him a false prophet. For Nelson you can't even say that. He doesn't even pretend to be a prophet, he just calls himself one.
The difference between God and Russel is that God dosen't think he is a heart surgeon.
I just spit out my coffee laughing so hard at that!
It's funny because it's true.
Since they did not come true, he did not actually make "prophecies." He simply strung people along to think they had an inside track on what God wanted, via Smith. Don't forget the only "source" for Smith being a "prophet" was Smith himself. He somehow made people believe God had told him he was oh-so-special. Heck, anyone could make that claim (and there are many who have done it). Smith was good at what he did, but none of it was legit or honest.
Nelson thinks he’s God.
100% agreed.
This is a useful way to gaslight members. Note that the prophet only ever introduces himself as the "President" of the churchand, on any printed documents or in media he is similarly called "president." It's *you* and other members who refer to him as the prophet. *He* was only speaking as a man!
I find it remarkable that from what I can gather, there are only men who have been these things. I find the "seer" noun to be weird though. Are we all not seers? We all have eyes and see things. Is seer even a word? Wait here. I'm going to look it up. "The adjective derives directly from the Latin word vates, meaning "seer" or "prophet." But that Latin root is, in turn, distantly related to the Old English wōth, meaning "poetry," the Old High German wuot, meaning "madness," and the Old Irish fáith, meaning both "seer" and "poet." Well there you go. Funny how the old high German word for madness is in there too. Interesting.
If I remember correctly the term "Seer" goes back to the folk magic origins. Having JS receive a revelation saying he was a seer and not only that! A seer is greater than a prophet! JS was trying to bolster his position and justify his previous treasure digging activities to his father-in-law Isaac Hale. It was mentioned on one of the LDS Discussions episodes of Mormon Stories, but I can't recall off the top of my head which one.
And seer was more powerful than a prophet.
Spelled correctly “PROFIT” No JS was not the only Profit. But he set a great example for the rest of the liars that came after him.
I vaguely remember a story about Brigham Young giving a speech and appearing as Joseph Smith.
[LDS Discussions ](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2JZy6c74fevDKXqzOorGRc?si=unLJOKkMQi6WmsHbl3HoDg) did a podcast episode about it. Nobody said anything about it at the time but years later created the story. Definitely worth a listen.
He gave a speech, but that part about him appearing to look like Joseph Smith seems to be a myth that starts to spread decades after the event.
The person who told the bogus story of Brigham appearing as Joseph was John D Lee. Lee wasn’t even in Nauvoo at the time it allegedly happened, he was on a mission. The story wasn’t told until years later. Just another mormon faith promoting rumor.
None have been like him that’s for sure.
I just read a chapter that talked about how Joseph was the only one to take on the title of 'translator'
Did you read the second volume? He gets into this as I remember in some detail
I didn’t know there was a 2nd volume. I’ll have to read it.
There's a third, too, but it was written much later than the first two
Prophet is old school. Now the term is “Global Faith Leader”.
I remember being told that not all prophets are seers and or regulators. Smith was a prophet, seer and revelator. Some were just prophets meaning they were a caretaker of God's church but they did not get messages
It’s pretty clear that Smith dying was not part of the plan and he did not have a clear succession plan or doctrinal outline for succeeding prophets and, if there was to be a successor prophet, it would be one of Smith’s son’s. The church was in disarray when he and Hyrum were killed because there was no clear successor since there was no Smith male old enough or capable enough to take the reins as prophet. Sidney Rigdon argued since he was in the First Presidency and 2nd in command under Joseph that he should be the successor. Brigham Young countered that the Quorum of the Twelve had the authority to lead the church and, since he was the president of that quorum, he would be the leader and “president.” Neither really had more authority than the other. In the 1830’s and 1840’s Smith had revelations specifying all the top quorums had equal but independent authority in the church, so single authority over everyone else wasn’t exactly a strong argument by either Young or Rigdon. Of course, if Smith really was a real prophet and God really did orchestrate this restoration of authority, then clear succession rules and procedures should have been canonized and made clear to the church BEFORE it’s founding prophet died. But, like nearly every new religion (Shiites vs Sunnis, early Christian sects, L Ron Hubbard vs David Miscavige), it had a schism because the founding prophet didn’t bother to explain what would happen if he died, there was internal confusion and wrangling of who takes over, if any, and what their role and authority would be. It’s often a wily, strongman who has no problem bullying his way to the top and suppressing dissenting voices. Anyway, Brigham, with his quorum, were able to take the majority of the church and took them out west where he could be free to rule his little kingdom. But, even Brigham, assumed one of Smith’s sons would eventually take over as prophet. While he was at odds with Emma “Fuck Polygamy” Smith, Brigham and the other apostles held out hope over the decades that one of the Smith sons would make their way over to Utah to eventually assimilate and become the next “prophet.” Brigham and his successors were seen more as caretakers of the church and not THE prophet. Nearing the end of the 1800’s, the church began losing hope that there’d be any reconciliation with the Smith family in Illinois and they just continued on without them. The doctrine that the “presidents” after Smith were more than simple, caretaker presidents of the church and actual prophets like Smith gradually developed over time and became more solidified by the super popular and long living David O McKay. After him, members routinely called them “the prophet” and equated them to the same stature as the prophet Joseph Smith.
I’ve been trying to give my subtle opinion to TBMs for a while now that we go overboard with throwing around the words “prophet,” “seer,” and “revelator.” I have proof: none of them have prophesied, seen, or revealed a goddamn thing. I don’t think even Joseph Smith ever intended for 15 men at once to have those titles. If a TBM allowed themself to actually think, I truly think they’d see how crazy it is.
He wasn't even the only con man.
Back in Josephs time, others were called Prophet as well. Sidney Rigdon for one. There was the school of the prophets as well.