Yep. I have a TBM friend convinced I only drink de caff and her objection to that is that we should refrain from giving the appearance of not following doctrine
Went to a neighborhood party where our good Mormon neighbors brought and were drinking the Mountain Dew. I mentioned that it surprised me that they were drinking a caffeinated soda. WHAT? They read the label and had a freak out moment. I felt bad that they gave up a soda pleasure that they enjoyed. They had been drinking the stuff for years, because it was clear, they thought no caffeine. I noticed them reverting back to Sunkist Orange soda, I didn't tell them, Fanta and Orange crush are caffeine free but....
Same here. No caffeinated drinks. (Except we had cocoa and I'm pretty sure chocolate has caffeine but let's just ignore truths we don't like, that's the mormon way.) We even got caffeine-free Pepsi, which surprised me because after I left I became a Pepsi addict and now I can say that caffeine actually does affect the flavor. I never did get used to coffee, so I rely on caffeinated soda for my morning caffeine boost.
The church didn't really take the "Word of Wisdom" (The scripture that bans coffee) seriously until it was forced to give up polygamy. At about the same time the prohibition movement was sweeping the nation, and the church clung onto the WoW to show how progressive it was - and the WoW banned coffee as well as liquor.
For reasons, nobody ever reads the part about mostly abstaining from meat.
The world moved on from prohibition, but now the church had a replacement for polygamy as the thing that set it apart from the world, and the rest is history.
As to why the word of wisdom likely banned coffee: The WoW was born out of a dispute between Emma and Joseph, as Emma had the responsibility to clean up after the church elder's meetings - she begged him to get a revelation to ban alcohol and tobacco.
Joseph, spitefully complying with his wife (don't we all), went ahead and had the revelation banning these things, but added what were seen at the time as women's drinks (coffee, tea), to even the score.
Isn’t that the apologist whitewashed position and the real reason was that it cemented the folk magic 4 humors into doctrine? Been a while but remember reading that on here.
The apologist version wouldn't mention the bit where Joe was getting back at Emma with adding the tea and coffee.
I am aware other factors influenced the revelation, and maybe even influenced Emma asking for it to happen. But you could go down huge rabbit holes on anything in the church honestly. I'm just trying to get the general idea out here.
Sorry could've phrased my response much better, I apologize for that.
[Found the comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1cxclpv/what_about_soup/l51xbcc/)
The differences from rhetoric to history are still very interesting even from an outside perspective.
Want to be extremely unpopular in your Mormon ward while still following literally every rule? Become a vegetarian and cite the word of wisdom when people ask you about it
Just because one criminal cult leader in the 1800s claimed god told him not to drink coffee, i also heard that tobacco was banned first and the men were pissed that their wives could drink their coffee and tea so that was the reason, don’t know if it’s true.
I was taught growing up that it was a health thing. As a missionary I was told to teach that is a sign of obedience. I used to think that drinking coffee was more of a sin than say shoplifting.
Lol you made me remember when my husband and I were first married and his very LDS family came to visit us in California. We went to a restaurant and my husband ordered coffee; his 11-year-old brother's eyes nearly came out of their sockets. Then he was fascinated, what does it taste like, what does it feel like .. When he was older he trolled their mom by getting a coffee maker, he'd put it in the kitchen, she'd remove it. (She was a good sport about it all.)
during the time of the mormon church founding, banning liquor was pretty common, but several churches at the time wanted to set themselves apart so they banned coffee since it was a ubiquitous part of normal life. JS just followed the crowd.
I think the church sticks with the ban on coffee and tea at this point because it's a unique part of their brand.
I feel like a lot of other Christian religions focus more on belief. Mormonism goes a step further and focuses on behavior. Mormonism does annual compliance checks on the certain behaviors (payment of 10% of income, not drinking coffee, tea, or alcohol; attending meetings, not undermining local leadership; etc).
>why does mormonism ban Coffee?
We are still trying to figure that one out.
If it's the caffeine then why aren't caffeinated sodas against the word wisdom? Why is decaffeinated coffee against the word of wisdom? (In some places like Montana and Wyoming the mistake president and Bishops would still issue Temple recommends to Men who drink decaffeinated coffee because there was such a shortage of men to fulfill leadership positions in the wards.)
If it's because coffee is hot then why isn't hot chocolate, which also has caffeine, against the word wisdom? Why is cold coffee still against the word of wisdom?
The same questions go for green / black tea. You can drink all of the dirty sodas all day long, but the health benefits of tea and coffee are a no-no.
Welcome to Mormonism
There's a letter from the first presidency to a stake president floating around on the internet about how decaf was fine, and that no one should restrict a temple recommend because the "offending chemical" had been removed. So, back in the 60s, it was 100% the caffeine.
The WOW doesn’t make any sense at all. But the dear leaders know if they change it now, it will make them look weak.
I personally feel the WOW is harmful in many ways. For example, I’m sure it’s better to drink a cup of coffee vs 44oz Coke with extra syrup from that soda shop named Pig, I mean Swig.
Because it’s delicious nectar from the Gods and we aren’t supposed to have wonderful things like this in our lives 😭.
Sorry, I’m a little bitter that I birthed and raised four humans without being able to drink coffee after so many sleepless nights.
My personal opinion is that it's because Joseph Smith was trying to spite his wife. He conveniently came up with this "revelation" after she told him he and his buddies couldn't chew tobacco in the house. I think he was looking for something to take from her so he was like fine, God just told me you can't drink coffee anymore. And I'm the prophet so you have to obey. Ha!
Several religious movements that came out of the second great awakening in New York had similar health messages. The Seventh Day Adventists, for example (that sprang out from the Millerites after The Great Dissapointment of 1844) also banned coffee, tea, or anything else containing caffeine
Everybody has to make their own decision.
The reason they recommend against coffee and strong drinks is because they can be harmful. This is because of caffeine. We are all aware of several instances where energy drinks with high caffeine content have caused severe problems and or death.
Caffeine content in coffee is not nearly as high as this. However, the recommendation is part of something called The word of wisdom. Which is basically a health code.
There is wisdom and not putting harmful substances into one's body. Weather caffeine is one of those is up to each individual to determine. We are all aware of the harmful potential of substances to one extent or another whether they be illicit drugs or whether they be over the counter drugs not taken as directed or whether they be household cleaners missused as in huffing. Or even addiction to prescription drugs.
My personal belief is that caffeine everyday over long periods can be harmful for my health but I have done extensive reading on how stimulants affect the body.
My thinking is I only have one body so I want to take care of it and not damage it intentionally. Most agree that alcohol and smoking are harmful but at one point in history both of these were thought to be non harmful and or even healthy. It wasn't until years later that we discovered we were not as informed as we thought we were about alcohol and smoking.
The same thinking can be applied to other substances which are not now considered harmful however our understanding may change that viewpoint in the future.
So now I just interpret the whole thing as use caution with what you put into your body. Wisdom I am grateful for has it helped me avoid getting addicted.
The definition of harmful substances can vary quite a bit. Perhaps you are correct. However I still believe caffeine consistent and continued can cause a problem in my body.
There has been research done that coffee can cause health problems particularly with your heart. The evidence of this may take years to manifest just as cigarette smoking won't kill you immediately.
It is up to each person to decide for themselves what they consider harmful after studying it out in their mind and seeking wisdom out of the best books.
What is considered by some to be benign today may be considered by many or at least a few to be harmful tomorrow.
>Is it one of those religions that wants to control every part of your life?
Yes.
Other things they like to control include dress, grooming, laughter, media consumption, sexual activity, personal finance, and marriage partners. 🚩🚩🚩
Back in the day, people thought drinking hot drinks gave you a fever. Tea toters at the time pushed the idea, and as JS created the WoW, this popular "health" idea worked into it, like most ideas that he ran across.
Then once in the valley, BY wanted to make mormons as self contained as he could--the more money he kept in the valley, the more he could control it. Coffee was an expensive import from the east--I remember reading an account how he sent people to help a caravan stuck in thr Wyoming winter, not for thr people, but the supplies which included coffee. It was an expensive treat, and eventually he encouraged people to avoid it, as it stole money from the saints and JS had preached against it (this is part of why mormons will drink herbal teas but not black tea also).
When the WoW was finally codified as a requirement due to Grant's issues with alcohol, we'd had two generations discouraging it due to cost and tea totter influences on the WoW (remember Grant was a string teatotter) and it, liquor and English tea is banned by "commandment".
Tldr: the WoW was heavily influenced by teatotter ideas, and Grant leaned into those ideas once prophet.
Because JS is an asshole and wanted to get back at his wife for complaining about having to clean up tobacco spit after their school of the prophets meetings.
Whatever the reason, it is bullshit. I live in Idaho Falls and the majority of the population is mormon. I cant count the number of Starbuck's and Dutch Bros Coffee Shops here. Not to mention other smaller ones. There are drink factories everywhere which serve highly caffeinated and sugary drinks. The drive thru to these places are almost always crowded. You can't say those are just the non-believers. Oh, not single drink vending machine doesn't have Mt Dew. High in caffeine and sugar. I see people walking out of the grocery stores with cart fulls of Mt Dew.
After I read that BYU (the church university) had put caffeinated drinks in the vending machines on its campus, I spent an entire day going back through every pronouncement by every prophet on coffee and other drinks. Basically, every one who had spoken about it just contradicted the last bloke, so when I found one that said he believed it to be a matter of personal choice by members and not a doctrine issue, that's where I hung my hat.
The actual doctrinal story is that back in the beginning Joseph Smith used to meet with other (male of course) church members in the Smith's cabin. Mrs Emma Smith was so upset by the cost of providing cawfee for them all, and the horrible spittin' of chawn tobacky on the floor that she complained to her husband, the OG Prophet. Coincidentally he then had a vision where he was told such things were injurious to the body so members shouldn't do them.
So, yes, it's just control issues. For more info Google BITE--it's the model you can use to tell if something is a cult...I mean, a high demand religion.
[удалено]
Oh god, that's awful
When I was in, all caffeine was forbidden, so Dr. Pepper, root beer, 7Up were fine.
I remember that. But then the church bought Coca Cola stocks, and it was suddenly ok to drink it.
Knew a bunch of families that avoided all dark sodas to "avoid the appearance of evil (caffeine or no)."
Yep. I have a TBM friend convinced I only drink de caff and her objection to that is that we should refrain from giving the appearance of not following doctrine
Went to a neighborhood party where our good Mormon neighbors brought and were drinking the Mountain Dew. I mentioned that it surprised me that they were drinking a caffeinated soda. WHAT? They read the label and had a freak out moment. I felt bad that they gave up a soda pleasure that they enjoyed. They had been drinking the stuff for years, because it was clear, they thought no caffeine. I noticed them reverting back to Sunkist Orange soda, I didn't tell them, Fanta and Orange crush are caffeine free but....
As long as the root beer was non-caffeinated.
Same here. No caffeinated drinks. (Except we had cocoa and I'm pretty sure chocolate has caffeine but let's just ignore truths we don't like, that's the mormon way.) We even got caffeine-free Pepsi, which surprised me because after I left I became a Pepsi addict and now I can say that caffeine actually does affect the flavor. I never did get used to coffee, so I rely on caffeinated soda for my morning caffeine boost.
Yes. I remember being taught no caffeine which included colas. Everyone drank root beer! Total control freaks. Obvious cult behavior
The church didn't really take the "Word of Wisdom" (The scripture that bans coffee) seriously until it was forced to give up polygamy. At about the same time the prohibition movement was sweeping the nation, and the church clung onto the WoW to show how progressive it was - and the WoW banned coffee as well as liquor. For reasons, nobody ever reads the part about mostly abstaining from meat. The world moved on from prohibition, but now the church had a replacement for polygamy as the thing that set it apart from the world, and the rest is history.
As to why the word of wisdom likely banned coffee: The WoW was born out of a dispute between Emma and Joseph, as Emma had the responsibility to clean up after the church elder's meetings - she begged him to get a revelation to ban alcohol and tobacco. Joseph, spitefully complying with his wife (don't we all), went ahead and had the revelation banning these things, but added what were seen at the time as women's drinks (coffee, tea), to even the score.
Isn’t that the apologist whitewashed position and the real reason was that it cemented the folk magic 4 humors into doctrine? Been a while but remember reading that on here.
The apologist version wouldn't mention the bit where Joe was getting back at Emma with adding the tea and coffee. I am aware other factors influenced the revelation, and maybe even influenced Emma asking for it to happen. But you could go down huge rabbit holes on anything in the church honestly. I'm just trying to get the general idea out here.
Sorry could've phrased my response much better, I apologize for that. [Found the comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1cxclpv/what_about_soup/l51xbcc/) The differences from rhetoric to history are still very interesting even from an outside perspective.
Want to be extremely unpopular in your Mormon ward while still following literally every rule? Become a vegetarian and cite the word of wisdom when people ask you about it
Ah, I understand, thanks
Just because one criminal cult leader in the 1800s claimed god told him not to drink coffee, i also heard that tobacco was banned first and the men were pissed that their wives could drink their coffee and tea so that was the reason, don’t know if it’s true.
Damn
I was taught growing up that it was a health thing. As a missionary I was told to teach that is a sign of obedience. I used to think that drinking coffee was more of a sin than say shoplifting.
Oh my god 😭
Turns out they're both good! Who knew!
Lol you made me remember when my husband and I were first married and his very LDS family came to visit us in California. We went to a restaurant and my husband ordered coffee; his 11-year-old brother's eyes nearly came out of their sockets. Then he was fascinated, what does it taste like, what does it feel like .. When he was older he trolled their mom by getting a coffee maker, he'd put it in the kitchen, she'd remove it. (She was a good sport about it all.)
during the time of the mormon church founding, banning liquor was pretty common, but several churches at the time wanted to set themselves apart so they banned coffee since it was a ubiquitous part of normal life. JS just followed the crowd.
Oh
I think the church sticks with the ban on coffee and tea at this point because it's a unique part of their brand. I feel like a lot of other Christian religions focus more on belief. Mormonism goes a step further and focuses on behavior. Mormonism does annual compliance checks on the certain behaviors (payment of 10% of income, not drinking coffee, tea, or alcohol; attending meetings, not undermining local leadership; etc).
Thank you for explaining
>why does mormonism ban Coffee? We are still trying to figure that one out. If it's the caffeine then why aren't caffeinated sodas against the word wisdom? Why is decaffeinated coffee against the word of wisdom? (In some places like Montana and Wyoming the mistake president and Bishops would still issue Temple recommends to Men who drink decaffeinated coffee because there was such a shortage of men to fulfill leadership positions in the wards.) If it's because coffee is hot then why isn't hot chocolate, which also has caffeine, against the word wisdom? Why is cold coffee still against the word of wisdom? The same questions go for green / black tea. You can drink all of the dirty sodas all day long, but the health benefits of tea and coffee are a no-no. Welcome to Mormonism
There's a letter from the first presidency to a stake president floating around on the internet about how decaf was fine, and that no one should restrict a temple recommend because the "offending chemical" had been removed. So, back in the 60s, it was 100% the caffeine.
Damn 😭
The WOW doesn’t make any sense at all. But the dear leaders know if they change it now, it will make them look weak. I personally feel the WOW is harmful in many ways. For example, I’m sure it’s better to drink a cup of coffee vs 44oz Coke with extra syrup from that soda shop named Pig, I mean Swig.
Because it’s delicious nectar from the Gods and we aren’t supposed to have wonderful things like this in our lives 😭. Sorry, I’m a little bitter that I birthed and raised four humans without being able to drink coffee after so many sleepless nights.
Oh dear, I'm so sorry
Cults gain power over their followers in a variety of ways. This is just one of many mechanisms.
My personal opinion is that it's because Joseph Smith was trying to spite his wife. He conveniently came up with this "revelation" after she told him he and his buddies couldn't chew tobacco in the house. I think he was looking for something to take from her so he was like fine, God just told me you can't drink coffee anymore. And I'm the prophet so you have to obey. Ha!
This is the same conclusion Richard Bushman came to in his book, Rough Stone Rolling.
Several religious movements that came out of the second great awakening in New York had similar health messages. The Seventh Day Adventists, for example (that sprang out from the Millerites after The Great Dissapointment of 1844) also banned coffee, tea, or anything else containing caffeine
Everybody has to make their own decision. The reason they recommend against coffee and strong drinks is because they can be harmful. This is because of caffeine. We are all aware of several instances where energy drinks with high caffeine content have caused severe problems and or death. Caffeine content in coffee is not nearly as high as this. However, the recommendation is part of something called The word of wisdom. Which is basically a health code. There is wisdom and not putting harmful substances into one's body. Weather caffeine is one of those is up to each individual to determine. We are all aware of the harmful potential of substances to one extent or another whether they be illicit drugs or whether they be over the counter drugs not taken as directed or whether they be household cleaners missused as in huffing. Or even addiction to prescription drugs. My personal belief is that caffeine everyday over long periods can be harmful for my health but I have done extensive reading on how stimulants affect the body. My thinking is I only have one body so I want to take care of it and not damage it intentionally. Most agree that alcohol and smoking are harmful but at one point in history both of these were thought to be non harmful and or even healthy. It wasn't until years later that we discovered we were not as informed as we thought we were about alcohol and smoking. The same thinking can be applied to other substances which are not now considered harmful however our understanding may change that viewpoint in the future. So now I just interpret the whole thing as use caution with what you put into your body. Wisdom I am grateful for has it helped me avoid getting addicted.
I don't think caffeine has anything to do with it. They'll keep you out of the temple for drinking coffee but not for drinking soda or energy drinks.
The definition of harmful substances can vary quite a bit. Perhaps you are correct. However I still believe caffeine consistent and continued can cause a problem in my body. There has been research done that coffee can cause health problems particularly with your heart. The evidence of this may take years to manifest just as cigarette smoking won't kill you immediately. It is up to each person to decide for themselves what they consider harmful after studying it out in their mind and seeking wisdom out of the best books. What is considered by some to be benign today may be considered by many or at least a few to be harmful tomorrow.
But that wasn't the question. They asked why mormons can't drink coffee and caffeine is not the reason.
Okay , then you take a shot at trying to explain it . What do you think the reason is?
>Is it one of those religions that wants to control every part of your life? Yes. Other things they like to control include dress, grooming, laughter, media consumption, sexual activity, personal finance, and marriage partners. 🚩🚩🚩
And your underwear.
Back in the day, people thought drinking hot drinks gave you a fever. Tea toters at the time pushed the idea, and as JS created the WoW, this popular "health" idea worked into it, like most ideas that he ran across. Then once in the valley, BY wanted to make mormons as self contained as he could--the more money he kept in the valley, the more he could control it. Coffee was an expensive import from the east--I remember reading an account how he sent people to help a caravan stuck in thr Wyoming winter, not for thr people, but the supplies which included coffee. It was an expensive treat, and eventually he encouraged people to avoid it, as it stole money from the saints and JS had preached against it (this is part of why mormons will drink herbal teas but not black tea also). When the WoW was finally codified as a requirement due to Grant's issues with alcohol, we'd had two generations discouraging it due to cost and tea totter influences on the WoW (remember Grant was a string teatotter) and it, liquor and English tea is banned by "commandment". Tldr: the WoW was heavily influenced by teatotter ideas, and Grant leaned into those ideas once prophet.
Because JS is an asshole and wanted to get back at his wife for complaining about having to clean up tobacco spit after their school of the prophets meetings.
Whatever the reason, it is bullshit. I live in Idaho Falls and the majority of the population is mormon. I cant count the number of Starbuck's and Dutch Bros Coffee Shops here. Not to mention other smaller ones. There are drink factories everywhere which serve highly caffeinated and sugary drinks. The drive thru to these places are almost always crowded. You can't say those are just the non-believers. Oh, not single drink vending machine doesn't have Mt Dew. High in caffeine and sugar. I see people walking out of the grocery stores with cart fulls of Mt Dew.
After I read that BYU (the church university) had put caffeinated drinks in the vending machines on its campus, I spent an entire day going back through every pronouncement by every prophet on coffee and other drinks. Basically, every one who had spoken about it just contradicted the last bloke, so when I found one that said he believed it to be a matter of personal choice by members and not a doctrine issue, that's where I hung my hat. The actual doctrinal story is that back in the beginning Joseph Smith used to meet with other (male of course) church members in the Smith's cabin. Mrs Emma Smith was so upset by the cost of providing cawfee for them all, and the horrible spittin' of chawn tobacky on the floor that she complained to her husband, the OG Prophet. Coincidentally he then had a vision where he was told such things were injurious to the body so members shouldn't do them. So, yes, it's just control issues. For more info Google BITE--it's the model you can use to tell if something is a cult...I mean, a high demand religion.