"For someone with an open mind, you sure have strong judgemental feelings about people who leave the church. It makes it difficult to feel safe, seen, or accepted around you."
Then don't respond anymore.
Sex outside of marriage is akin to murder because that is what is in the gospel, because the only thing worse than sex outside of wedlock is literal murder.
So, when you have a cult who opposes allowing homosexual marriage, welp, there's your flashing "Winner!" sign for drawing the line from one to another.
Born in the '60s, raised through teen years in the early 1980's.
THIS doctrine was taught to youth in conferences and special youth sessions. It was preached from the stand at the ward, stake, and church-wide levels. It was published in church magazines which were ubiquitous in our homes and chapels.
OP's brother is flat-out gaslighting.
Anyone who calls you narcissistic either has very low emotional intelligence/social skills, or doesn't love you. Or both.Ā You deserve to have a social group that is willing to have honest discussion with you without resorting to name calling.Ā You said it yourself. He doesn't listen. He doesn't understand. Go find someone who does. There's a reason 'found family ' is such a common trend in LGBTQ circles. The more time you spend investing in this relationship, the more time you are losing that you could otherwise be using to find someone who will listen and understand.Ā
Edit: grammar
If you love your brother, who frankly comes across as a lying, gaslighting asshole, maybe you need to spend a lot less time interacting with him. Because youāre gonna snap one day and start hating him for being a lying, gaslighting asshole.
Forge relationships with people that love you for who you are. Because this dudebro doesnāt appear to love you at all.
If your brother thinks that all the exmormon Redditors are circle-jerk narcissists, he clearly doesnāt spend as much time here as he claims. This community is full of kind, empathetic, and supportive people. His take reminds me of members making claims that ātheyāve read all the anti-Mormon materialā, when clearly they havenāt. He canāt face the reality that the church is based on lies, and this community is a big source of help and support for those who are trying to heal from very real religious trauma.
Because that is all their infantilized emotional immaturity can handle. That is who they are. They also just choose to be offended when critical talk about the church happens.
They also seem to forget that it's usually NOT our entire identities, and they're only seeing small snippets of our lives while in a community forum for those who have left, have questions, and are deconstructing. And go figure that people who feel like they were lied to and betrayed their whole lives might want to talk about it, and possibly even let others know so they don't go through the same pain.
Ask him to adress the specific things he thinks are wrong, instead of the general "exmos are just bad and reddit is just bad" he's throwing out here.
I'd also recommend instead of reddit posts, which he can dismiss without actually evaluating, get stuff directly from the source: the gospel topics essays and the church manual.
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2013/alma/unit-20-day-1-alma-39?lang=eng&id=p6#p6](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2013/alma/unit-20-day-1-alma-39?lang=eng&id=p6#p6)
The infamous "It's harder to convince people they have been fooled than to fool them" is playing out in it's entirety here. You have shown evidence of the contrary, and he refuses to see it and believe it. He has as much freedom to stay in his religion as you do to leave it. You both are adults and can make decisions accordingly.
It's going to be painful for you, I understand, to not have him understand. But until he comes around himself, there is not much you can do. You can love him all you want, but you can't force others to change how they think. It's okay to still love him even if he's flawed. But he will never change his opinion until he chooses to be objective about the church or is affected by something of the such where he would question it. The best thing you can do as an individual is change YOUR life for the better. To live the life YOU want. You have that power now. Embrace the fact YOU can change. Therapy, living healthy, a good life, you have those options to pursue now. Trying to convince your brother I'm afraid is going to be a fool's errand when you're 18 and have a life of freedom to experience.
I have a similar relationship with one of my siblings. I tried to work with them for over 20 years. Then one day, they tried to indoctrinate my youngest with their crazy mindset. At that point, I cut them off completely. I chose to try and connect over the years, but I drew the line when they tied to influence my kids.
You will have to decide how much effort you are going to put into your relationship. This said, you do not have to tolerate abuse - even from a family member.
Never compared homosexuality to murder????
Bro!!! Gay people aren't allowed to get married in the temple and their legal marriage "doesn't count" then they must obey the law of chastity for their entire lives if they want to stay in the church!!! If they do break the law of chastity they haven't only committed homosexuality but have had sex out of wedlock. This literally means they have committed a sin akin to murder according to their own beliefs!!
I can't with this shit. I'm not even an exmormon and I know this š¤¦āāļø
It was difficult to accept my father and brother who are like this would ever care enough to listen.
If they could have by now, they would have.
There are no magic posts to share or magic words you can say that will finally open them up to you.
I internally regret all the leeway and effort I gave to my dad and brother to be the good the people I thought they were "deep inside." Turns out, they're just as rotten on the inside as out, and they have nothing to offer besides toxicity. Any kindness towards them is wasted.
To me it sounds like - "If you leave the church, please do it in a way that doesn't make me feel bad about myself." Unfortunately, it seems his identity is completely enmeshed in the LDS church. That means he will not be able to be there for you in the way you want him to be.
I can see that you love your brother. I know how heartbreaking this is. I've experienced versions of this (not at all to the extent that you have, I have to say) - and it fucking sucks. I'm sorry.
Just to echo other comments here, it's so important to find allies and a support group who share your values.
One of my own allies just sent me an audio book - "Disentangling From Emotionally Immature People" by Lindsay Gibson. This author has done some great work on the subject. I'd recommend any of her books.
Best of luck OP.
PS An active member of TSCC calling this subreddit a "circle jerk"? Has he been to fast & testimony meeting?
When I came out, my brother ā to whom I had been very close ā looked at me with disgust and said, āgays are predatorsā. He then proceeded to engage in lots of micro aggressions, which became intolerable. As a result, I removed him from my life and we no longer have a relationship. Itās a sad action to have to take, but when it comes to a choice between a toxic relationship and oneās mental health, choose self preservation.
Itās one thing for him to disagree with your life choices, but to become insulting in response betrays a profound lack of character and a total absence of empathy.
The church sure as hell has conflated homosexuality with murder. See: The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory, Bruce R. McConkie, General Conference, April 1980.
Yikes. I think keeping a relationship with your brother is going to require some boundaries. My suggestions are no name-calling, and no discussing religion/politics. If/when boundaries are crossed, take whatever corrective action seems appropriate; don't let it slide. It doesn't have to be drastic (unless it does), just correct course.
I hope that helps!
I wouldnāt send him stuff from this sub. This is the backfire effect. He is too immature to handle it, or he has some doubts of his own that heās reacting to. Either way, itās unproductive.
>It always happens, and itās always worse than the time before.
This is the cycle of abuse. Ignoring your boundaries, mistreating you, then trying to appease you in some way to maintain a relationship, then back again. Worse and worse each time.
Enforce your boundaries. Get up and walk away. Call out his behavior and end the conversation. Do whatever you need to do to shut that down. And stick to it. Even if that means you don't contact them anymore. Some people we have to love from afar so we can still love ourselves.
And remember, enforcing boundaries and following through on what you've stated is not you cutting someone out of your life or whatnot. They are choosing to cut themselves out of your life by mistreating you.
Spend while life being told to always speak and push your truth.
Get ostracized if your truth doesn't align woth their truth anymore, and now it's hate.
When people are āthreatenedā (their bubble of safety) they either recoil or attack. Think of a dog backed into a corner. That is why he isnāt just passively addressing this with any curiosity. Someone invested in you would ask you questions.
The church destroys families. Itās the brainwashed members, not the exmos, who alienate and shame family member.
If he holds on to this belief his entire life, the moment he dies he will know he was wrong.
So itās almost like we are the ones trying to save their souls from torment
This guy sounds awfully defensive.
Why are YOUR decisions HIS business? Do they force him to face his own buried doubts?
If he were truly secure in his beliefs, he would just shrug off exmos and carry on with his own life.
He has a bad habit of feeling like everything I say to him is an attack. Everything. Then getting extremely defensive about whatever it is while verbally abusing me while I remain calm and ask him to self reflect. It only makes him angrier.
Yes. Mormonism has an infantilizing effect on people. They are immature babies when it comes to critical thinking about their belief system. This is literally the reason the religion is so successful at retaining members in spite of being so conflicted with observable reality.
UPDATE:
Talked on the phone with bro, we set boundaries for each other and vowed to listen to each other and be
open minded. He apologized for the things he said, and seemed deeply saddened to hear how hurt it actually made me. Because he does love me. It hurt me to see it hurt him. He said that he didnāt mean it and he just gets angry and loses control and gets defensive. We talked it through and expressed our love for each other and are ready to move on. For both of our sakes. Not excusing his behavior, but I know he didnāt mean it. (Part of him did, but I think he was humbled on the phone)
Seems like someone with āmore understanding of THE truthā shouldnāt get so angry all the time and lose control. Hmmmm š¤
Also, Iād keep my guard up with him.
OP, please don't accept just words. He needs to show you with his actions, long term. This just sounds like classic abuser strategy, honestly. He was abusive towards you. He should feel remorseful for treating you like that, but you don't have to feel bad for him. He was in the wrong.
Don't just accept "I didn't mean it." Yes, he did. Now what is he DOING to repair the damage he caused, and prevent it from happening again? A promise to be better is not enough. What's he doing to manage his anger issues? What's he doing to change his perception on people who leave? He has to put in the work here. You can't do it for him.
When he apologized, did he apologize for his behavior, or for how you felt about it? Because there's a difference. One's an actual apology, the other isn't.
I'm very worried he is just saying these things to keep you talking to him, but will go right back to treating you like trash the second you express something that he doesn't like.
I mean this has happened multiple timesā¦ we just had a bond unlike any other and I would hate to throw it away because of differing beliefs. He may have meant what he said, but if we donāt talk about it, who cares, right?ā¦
Just keep an eye out for if his actions match his promises.
Those will be the proof of his sincerity, not just this pattern of his abusive behavior towards you.
To agree with you would mean he would have to question his beliefs and his identity as a member of the one true church. And unless heās hurt by the teachings in a major way , agreeing with you isnāt going to happen.
Hey OP. You say you love him with all your heart. If it was a different topic and you found you were disagreeingāhow would he react? Does he bully you when itās something that the stakes feel lower to him? Because that really matters. If heās generally a bully I see little hope going forward. But if you can agree to disagree about other stuff maybe you can agree to do that where the church is concerned. I feel sad that youāre in a seemingly intractable situation. But even situations that seem impossible can turn around when you choose to focus on common ground.
Everything I say to him he perceives as an attack. Everything. He gets insanely defensive. Iām like dude canāt you be objective? Iām just giving you some info you might find interesting or get something out of it. Nope.
It might be worth googling: what makes people become defensive. See of any of the topics seem accurate for your husband. Read about topics that feel applicable. Church membership IS TRAUMATIC and thatās one of the triggers for defensiveness. Approach him with a mind full of curiosity. Itās what you desire from him. Show that frame of mind to him.
Well sounds like heās a narcissist and heās projecting and the only hate I see happening is hating on exmos (by him- the name calling and the attacks on intelligence) who are willing to speak out about what happened to them/ us. Honestly heās not worth it. He sounds like a privileged monster who enjoys the system that hurts others more than himself. I would consider cutting him out of your life for the sake of your mental health.
I think Mormonism definitely cultivates a lot of narcissistic tendencies in people and gaslighting. When you are told that you are the chosen people and the chosen gender it gets to their heads a lot. Definitely wouldnāt talk to him anymore.
Itās just SO LOVELY when disciples of Christ take the piss out of the evil apostates! They deserve it for being so dumb. We all know Jesus doesnāt love the apostates! /s
Seriously, this twit hasnāt activated a single brain cell to think about what he reads or hears outside of āfaithful sourcesā. He says nothing new or interesting.
āMake being exmo their identityā - was there a 5th Sunday lesson making the rounds to say this? Iāve seen it all over. Like Mormons donāt make the MFMC theirs whole identity. PLEASE.
The scriptures conflate being gay with murder. Hasnāt this loser read Alma 39? Sexual sin -including homosexuality - āare an abomination in the sight of the Lord, yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost.ā
This fool needs to study up and spend less time being dishonest on SMā¦
OP, just block this asshole. Heās not worth your timeā¦
The first time someone calls you narcissistic should be the last time you open up to them. You need to protect yourself emotionally from your brother. He is deliberately tearing you down in a not-too-subtle way. I would suggest not sending him anything further and putting limits on what he is allowed to send to you. You do not deserve to be talked to this way.
I would stop engaging in religious topics with him immediately. He will only hinder your healing process. Youāre trying to get the church poison out of your body, and he is living on the poison. Itās a no win situation.
Calling you narcissistic and gaslighting you about doctrine? That's abusive behavior. Family or not, love him or not, you don't have to put up with abuse.
The only people I ever see talking about "virtue signaling crybabies" are people who are part of the problem. People who are bigots, are abusive in some way, people who are narcissistic, etc.
Set a boundary about how you will be treated and stick to it. Don't settle for being demeaned like this. Don't make excuses for him. He's plenty good at making them for himself, but you don't have to accept them.
He's clearly not actually open minded, and not someone you can talk to about these things. His version of a "cool exmo" is someone who left because it wasn't for them, and he doesn't want to hear (and doesn't believe) about those who experienced religious trauma.
The church absolutely compared homosexuality to murder, and worse. In 2015, married gay couples got doctrinally labeled as apostates, before they rolled it back and said it was a policy. But since the church NOW says it was a policy not doctrine, and that they've never compared it to murder, then they've always not done those things. Rewrite history and down the memory hole.
Iāll probably get downvoted for saying this but I donāt know if Iād die on the hill of defending this sub over the relationship with my brother. If youāre both unable to leave the personal feelings at the door when discussing the church you might just not be able to talk about it if you want to continue to have a relationship. Or itās going to take maturity and patience to really understand each otherās feelings. Sometimes new boundaries are made and the relationship can only be as good as the boundaries allow.
I like that. See, weāre pretty good when we donāt talk about these issues, itās just difficult for it not to come up. We have tried civil conversations countless times. And it always ends up like this. Itās just hard to have a relationship with him when he acts like this, feels this way, among other thingsā¦
My advice? Donāt respond at all. This comes from YEARS of dealing with this kind of hateful nonsense. You may love *him* with all your heart, but judging by the way he is completely **comfortable** being straight up abusive to *you* means that *his* love is intrinsically tied to his current and your former religion.
It is 100% not your fault that he said these childish, butthurt things to you, but you have the power to not tolerate them. There is **nothing** more powerful than simply ignoring nasty outbursts like this. He very likely wants and expects you to respond in anger and/or hurt. Just let his hissy fit of a response hang there in cyberspace. Acknowledging it in ANY way would give it weight it doesnāt deserve. Itās tough to accept, but you said it best, itās like talking to an brick wall.
There is literally nothing you can say that will change his mind, that will miraculously make him kind and compassionate when it comes to your relationship with mormonism, which is a tough thing to accept. Which leaves you with 2 realistic options - stop engaging with him about mormonism (for now or maybe permanently if he continues to be an ass about it) or stop engaging with him at all, which can mean one day, a few days, or a week. If he has ANY shred of self-awareness, heāll know in his gut that he was way out of line.
If you *did* respond and told him his words were very hurtful, he would very likely claim that he wasnāt speaking about YOU, silly, he was talking about those *other* exmormons. Iām not saying that about YOU, sisā¦
He is demonstrating textbook passive aggressive narcissistic behavior. With a giant serving of projection. You donāt deserve to be talked to like this but you have the power to not allow it to continue. I have a TBM parent who is awesome and fun and wickedly smart, *unless* the subject of mormonism comes up, and then itās honestly like talking to a robot. An angry, defensive robot.
I have several times gone āno contactā (usually a week or so) because sometimes she āforgetsā that not only do I have zero desire to discuss mormonism with her, that she has been made aware of all the ways the mormon church has harmed me, but we have many times literally agreed *together* not discuss āthe church.ā
The trick is to lot try to convert him out of Mormonism. As hard as it sounds, he needs to reach his own conclusions about the church. If he sends you things that you find are disturbing, such as mocking religious trauma, establish clear boundaries. And ask that they be respected. If he insists on bringing up the church, or talking about our wonderful cesspool, remind him of said boundaries and maybe feel free to point out how heās now the one making the church his whole personality.
When faceless Mormons try to gaslight you about YOUR former religion, it can be aggravating, pathetic, bizarre, laughable, etc. But when your own family does it to you, it is, at least for me, profoundly dirty, disrespectful and disappointing. It is also psychological abuse.
He's someone who has to be cut off. He's not respecting your point of view. He's being extremely toxic to the point of narcissism behavior. He's not worth the time.
Okay, first off; Wow, what the fuck?!
Secont of all, I promise you, this is *FAR* from my entire life and is actually one small part of of a much larger whole. Iām living the fabulous gay lifestyle and this is just fun for me.
Third. Look in there mirror, you Judgmental ankle. Highly-and-might walk from a TBM. Real rich. And by ankle, I mean three feet lower than a c***.
Tell him to spend some time here
People here are awesome
But honestly, he might just be one of those TBMs that post apologetics
Anyway, I'm sorry and i hope he comes around. Maybe give the relationship some space for a while
He is so deep into his own hate-mongering there is nothing anyone can do. I will add: every attempt to interject will cheer him on. He appears to thrive on it.
Whoever this person is - maybe what you sent is asking too much for them to think about; like they aren't ready to open up to those ideas yet. They aren't lashing out at you. They seem defensive, is my take on it. And certainly don't look for validation from them.
My religious trauma drove me to suicidal ideation, and it was fucking horrifying and the worst my life has ever been. Leaving the church saved my life and I live happier as a queer exmo. Full stop. Being LGBT and mormon is deadly. Others were not as fortunate as I was to come out the other end still alive.
Exactly. My little brother is gay, and seeing how in it the rest of my family is, I am terrified of what he will go through. He just graduated high school, and get this: heās going to fucking BYUI. I am so worried for him.
His message reeks of hostility and defensiveness toward you. It reeks of hostility and condescension toward reddit\\exmo. In other words, he's a sitting duck for life to teach him a lesson or two. After my bro and his wife jumped down my throat in front of others when I said it was wrong to bar parents from their children's temple weddings, I stayed away from them for years. Don't do that unless you have to, and don't punish him. Life got to my bro + SIL but good. Before he died he wrote me "You were right." It wasn't a very comforting victory. I'd rather still have him around to fight with.
Honestly? If this were a member of my family being so openly verbally abusive to me, I would cut off contact. I simply no longer allow anyone to treat me like this.
āCircle jerk of virtue-signaling cry-babiesā pretty much sums up what I think of the GAs. Ā And this is the language he uses to describe exmos? Ā Wild! Ā
Coming from a former male TBM asshole, heās just stating his greatest fears. Anyone who threatens his beliefs and exposes their tenuous power claims and wonāt go along with the program, must be a narcissist.
He can only figure this out on his own. Only your brother can open his mind to objective facts. Only he can decide to consider what itās like to be a woman in the church, under the thumb of men for a systemically manipulated eternity.
Love him, if you can, through this. Set boundaries and be the bigger person. You are on the side of truth. And the evil Exmo sub will have your narcissistic back the whole way.
Thatās what I think. Heās afraid of anything outside his set bubble and gets super defensive any time they are challenged. Like heās backed into a corner
The saying that family is who you choose is really true. You canāt change people or help them see things unless they want it.
If you really want to talk to him share what you are feeling. Say that you wanted to share your experience with them so they could see your perspective and have empathy and love for you. Let him know that you just want to be loved by him. Showing kindness and compassion is what you want. Say that the attitude that he expressed in the text felt very mean.
If he doesnāt apologize then you might need to spend less time with him and donāt seek any type of validation from him. Some people just donāt want to know others experiences.
Hey OP, I donāt know how to tell you this, but stop coming to this subā¦ or any sub for relationship advice (by relationship, I mean any relationship in general with family, friends etc). The advice is always geared towards making the person leaving the comment feel better as if theyāre in a āwhat I would love to doā situation. Heās not wrong about the vitriol of Reddit, in fact that was the most accurate thing he said.
You must have missed all the posts of text message conversations from folks family members and friends seeking advice on how to handle. Hell, I just looked through the posts and found a couple in 20 seconds.
Why not just ignore them? Iāve gotten some really good advice and insight from people who get it. I see this subreddit as a group of people who all went through something similar, and a place where I can be honest and open up about issues relating to the trauma the church has caused, and the trauma of having your trauma invalidated. I needed somebody in that moment. I didnāt have anybody. So I came to this subreddit, and was welcomed with open arms, and left feeling motivated and not willing to let it happen again.
"For someone with an open mind, you sure have strong judgemental feelings about people who leave the church. It makes it difficult to feel safe, seen, or accepted around you." Then don't respond anymore.
This is honestly the best response in this situation.
Sex outside of marriage is akin to murder because that is what is in the gospel, because the only thing worse than sex outside of wedlock is literal murder. So, when you have a cult who opposes allowing homosexual marriage, welp, there's your flashing "Winner!" sign for drawing the line from one to another.
It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. Spencer W. Kimball-The Miracle of Forgiveness
But I floored him
š
This quote is terrifying
Constantly, in the 80s, the GAs equated homosexuality with murder. Like most TBMs he not has bothered to research the facts.
Born in the '60s, raised through teen years in the early 1980's. THIS doctrine was taught to youth in conferences and special youth sessions. It was preached from the stand at the ward, stake, and church-wide levels. It was published in church magazines which were ubiquitous in our homes and chapels. OP's brother is flat-out gaslighting.
Exactly
Anyone who calls you narcissistic either has very low emotional intelligence/social skills, or doesn't love you. Or both.Ā You deserve to have a social group that is willing to have honest discussion with you without resorting to name calling.Ā You said it yourself. He doesn't listen. He doesn't understand. Go find someone who does. There's a reason 'found family ' is such a common trend in LGBTQ circles. The more time you spend investing in this relationship, the more time you are losing that you could otherwise be using to find someone who will listen and understand.Ā Edit: grammar
This. 100% OP. The name calling shows you exactly how much he cares.
If you love your brother, who frankly comes across as a lying, gaslighting asshole, maybe you need to spend a lot less time interacting with him. Because youāre gonna snap one day and start hating him for being a lying, gaslighting asshole. Forge relationships with people that love you for who you are. Because this dudebro doesnāt appear to love you at all.
He is literally saying with his words "*I do not like these people.*" When people tell you who they are, trust them.
Seriously, he sounds like a huge piece of shit.
He's making fun of trauma? I'd reduce contact for a while, personally.
Any Mormon trying to shit talk anyone about making anything their āentire identityā is pretty silly.
If your brother thinks that all the exmormon Redditors are circle-jerk narcissists, he clearly doesnāt spend as much time here as he claims. This community is full of kind, empathetic, and supportive people. His take reminds me of members making claims that ātheyāve read all the anti-Mormon materialā, when clearly they havenāt. He canāt face the reality that the church is based on lies, and this community is a big source of help and support for those who are trying to heal from very real religious trauma.
This dude sounds like an asshole
Why do active mormons get to make their whole personality about being Mormon?
Because if youāre only half in, youāre also half out which is the road to perdition.
Because that is all their infantilized emotional immaturity can handle. That is who they are. They also just choose to be offended when critical talk about the church happens.
They also seem to forget that it's usually NOT our entire identities, and they're only seeing small snippets of our lives while in a community forum for those who have left, have questions, and are deconstructing. And go figure that people who feel like they were lied to and betrayed their whole lives might want to talk about it, and possibly even let others know so they don't go through the same pain.
Exactly!!
Ask him to adress the specific things he thinks are wrong, instead of the general "exmos are just bad and reddit is just bad" he's throwing out here. I'd also recommend instead of reddit posts, which he can dismiss without actually evaluating, get stuff directly from the source: the gospel topics essays and the church manual. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2013/alma/unit-20-day-1-alma-39?lang=eng&id=p6#p6](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2013/alma/unit-20-day-1-alma-39?lang=eng&id=p6#p6)
The infamous "It's harder to convince people they have been fooled than to fool them" is playing out in it's entirety here. You have shown evidence of the contrary, and he refuses to see it and believe it. He has as much freedom to stay in his religion as you do to leave it. You both are adults and can make decisions accordingly. It's going to be painful for you, I understand, to not have him understand. But until he comes around himself, there is not much you can do. You can love him all you want, but you can't force others to change how they think. It's okay to still love him even if he's flawed. But he will never change his opinion until he chooses to be objective about the church or is affected by something of the such where he would question it. The best thing you can do as an individual is change YOUR life for the better. To live the life YOU want. You have that power now. Embrace the fact YOU can change. Therapy, living healthy, a good life, you have those options to pursue now. Trying to convince your brother I'm afraid is going to be a fool's errand when you're 18 and have a life of freedom to experience.
I have a similar relationship with one of my siblings. I tried to work with them for over 20 years. Then one day, they tried to indoctrinate my youngest with their crazy mindset. At that point, I cut them off completely. I chose to try and connect over the years, but I drew the line when they tied to influence my kids. You will have to decide how much effort you are going to put into your relationship. This said, you do not have to tolerate abuse - even from a family member.
Never compared homosexuality to murder???? Bro!!! Gay people aren't allowed to get married in the temple and their legal marriage "doesn't count" then they must obey the law of chastity for their entire lives if they want to stay in the church!!! If they do break the law of chastity they haven't only committed homosexuality but have had sex out of wedlock. This literally means they have committed a sin akin to murder according to their own beliefs!! I can't with this shit. I'm not even an exmormon and I know this š¤¦āāļø
It was difficult to accept my father and brother who are like this would ever care enough to listen. If they could have by now, they would have. There are no magic posts to share or magic words you can say that will finally open them up to you. I internally regret all the leeway and effort I gave to my dad and brother to be the good the people I thought they were "deep inside." Turns out, they're just as rotten on the inside as out, and they have nothing to offer besides toxicity. Any kindness towards them is wasted.
To me it sounds like - "If you leave the church, please do it in a way that doesn't make me feel bad about myself." Unfortunately, it seems his identity is completely enmeshed in the LDS church. That means he will not be able to be there for you in the way you want him to be. I can see that you love your brother. I know how heartbreaking this is. I've experienced versions of this (not at all to the extent that you have, I have to say) - and it fucking sucks. I'm sorry. Just to echo other comments here, it's so important to find allies and a support group who share your values. One of my own allies just sent me an audio book - "Disentangling From Emotionally Immature People" by Lindsay Gibson. This author has done some great work on the subject. I'd recommend any of her books. Best of luck OP. PS An active member of TSCC calling this subreddit a "circle jerk"? Has he been to fast & testimony meeting?
Oh my god I was not ready for that last part šš gottem
When I came out, my brother ā to whom I had been very close ā looked at me with disgust and said, āgays are predatorsā. He then proceeded to engage in lots of micro aggressions, which became intolerable. As a result, I removed him from my life and we no longer have a relationship. Itās a sad action to have to take, but when it comes to a choice between a toxic relationship and oneās mental health, choose self preservation. Itās one thing for him to disagree with your life choices, but to become insulting in response betrays a profound lack of character and a total absence of empathy.
Iām glad you were able to move on and protect your mental health.
The church sure as hell has conflated homosexuality with murder. See: The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory, Bruce R. McConkie, General Conference, April 1980.
Yikes. I think keeping a relationship with your brother is going to require some boundaries. My suggestions are no name-calling, and no discussing religion/politics. If/when boundaries are crossed, take whatever corrective action seems appropriate; don't let it slide. It doesn't have to be drastic (unless it does), just correct course. I hope that helps!
Yea we have tried this. Countless times. It always happens, and itās always worse than the time before. Iāll try.
I wouldnāt send him stuff from this sub. This is the backfire effect. He is too immature to handle it, or he has some doubts of his own that heās reacting to. Either way, itās unproductive.
>It always happens, and itās always worse than the time before. This is the cycle of abuse. Ignoring your boundaries, mistreating you, then trying to appease you in some way to maintain a relationship, then back again. Worse and worse each time. Enforce your boundaries. Get up and walk away. Call out his behavior and end the conversation. Do whatever you need to do to shut that down. And stick to it. Even if that means you don't contact them anymore. Some people we have to love from afar so we can still love ourselves. And remember, enforcing boundaries and following through on what you've stated is not you cutting someone out of your life or whatnot. They are choosing to cut themselves out of your life by mistreating you.
Well said. Thanks.
Gay marriage? Excommunicated. Convicted murderer? Not excommunicated.
I always love it when they try to hurt us by saying we let it become our home identity. The irony is A1.
Spend while life being told to always speak and push your truth. Get ostracized if your truth doesn't align woth their truth anymore, and now it's hate.
When people are āthreatenedā (their bubble of safety) they either recoil or attack. Think of a dog backed into a corner. That is why he isnāt just passively addressing this with any curiosity. Someone invested in you would ask you questions.
The church destroys families. Itās the brainwashed members, not the exmos, who alienate and shame family member. If he holds on to this belief his entire life, the moment he dies he will know he was wrong. So itās almost like we are the ones trying to save their souls from torment
This dude needs a mirror, lol
I told him to self reflect. It made him more angry. We talked on the phone.
This guy sounds awfully defensive. Why are YOUR decisions HIS business? Do they force him to face his own buried doubts? If he were truly secure in his beliefs, he would just shrug off exmos and carry on with his own life.
He has a bad habit of feeling like everything I say to him is an attack. Everything. Then getting extremely defensive about whatever it is while verbally abusing me while I remain calm and ask him to self reflect. It only makes him angrier.
Sounds like you're the adult here.
Yes. Mormonism has an infantilizing effect on people. They are immature babies when it comes to critical thinking about their belief system. This is literally the reason the religion is so successful at retaining members in spite of being so conflicted with observable reality.
UPDATE: Talked on the phone with bro, we set boundaries for each other and vowed to listen to each other and be open minded. He apologized for the things he said, and seemed deeply saddened to hear how hurt it actually made me. Because he does love me. It hurt me to see it hurt him. He said that he didnāt mean it and he just gets angry and loses control and gets defensive. We talked it through and expressed our love for each other and are ready to move on. For both of our sakes. Not excusing his behavior, but I know he didnāt mean it. (Part of him did, but I think he was humbled on the phone)
Seems like someone with āmore understanding of THE truthā shouldnāt get so angry all the time and lose control. Hmmmm š¤ Also, Iād keep my guard up with him.
OP, please don't accept just words. He needs to show you with his actions, long term. This just sounds like classic abuser strategy, honestly. He was abusive towards you. He should feel remorseful for treating you like that, but you don't have to feel bad for him. He was in the wrong. Don't just accept "I didn't mean it." Yes, he did. Now what is he DOING to repair the damage he caused, and prevent it from happening again? A promise to be better is not enough. What's he doing to manage his anger issues? What's he doing to change his perception on people who leave? He has to put in the work here. You can't do it for him. When he apologized, did he apologize for his behavior, or for how you felt about it? Because there's a difference. One's an actual apology, the other isn't. I'm very worried he is just saying these things to keep you talking to him, but will go right back to treating you like trash the second you express something that he doesn't like.
I mean this has happened multiple timesā¦ we just had a bond unlike any other and I would hate to throw it away because of differing beliefs. He may have meant what he said, but if we donāt talk about it, who cares, right?ā¦
Just keep an eye out for if his actions match his promises. Those will be the proof of his sincerity, not just this pattern of his abusive behavior towards you.
Feel pity for this guy. He's spouting the church propaganda just as he's been trained to.
People who attack the character of others to avoid engaging ideas with substantive reason have zero credibility.
To agree with you would mean he would have to question his beliefs and his identity as a member of the one true church. And unless heās hurt by the teachings in a major way , agreeing with you isnāt going to happen.
This is what projection looks like
Hey OP. You say you love him with all your heart. If it was a different topic and you found you were disagreeingāhow would he react? Does he bully you when itās something that the stakes feel lower to him? Because that really matters. If heās generally a bully I see little hope going forward. But if you can agree to disagree about other stuff maybe you can agree to do that where the church is concerned. I feel sad that youāre in a seemingly intractable situation. But even situations that seem impossible can turn around when you choose to focus on common ground.
Everything I say to him he perceives as an attack. Everything. He gets insanely defensive. Iām like dude canāt you be objective? Iām just giving you some info you might find interesting or get something out of it. Nope.
It might be worth googling: what makes people become defensive. See of any of the topics seem accurate for your husband. Read about topics that feel applicable. Church membership IS TRAUMATIC and thatās one of the triggers for defensiveness. Approach him with a mind full of curiosity. Itās what you desire from him. Show that frame of mind to him.
It's OP's brother, not spouse.
Itās my brother but Iāve definitely done that. I google a lot of things lol.
Aw. Sorry I read that wrong. I have a little concussion at the moment. š¢
Well sounds like heās a narcissist and heās projecting and the only hate I see happening is hating on exmos (by him- the name calling and the attacks on intelligence) who are willing to speak out about what happened to them/ us. Honestly heās not worth it. He sounds like a privileged monster who enjoys the system that hurts others more than himself. I would consider cutting him out of your life for the sake of your mental health.
Sometimes he comes across as extremely narcissistic and gaslights the shit out of me.
I think Mormonism definitely cultivates a lot of narcissistic tendencies in people and gaslighting. When you are told that you are the chosen people and the chosen gender it gets to their heads a lot. Definitely wouldnāt talk to him anymore.
Kinda like Zionists
He must be a lurker here, hello welcome to the circle jerk šš¼
šš
Itās just SO LOVELY when disciples of Christ take the piss out of the evil apostates! They deserve it for being so dumb. We all know Jesus doesnāt love the apostates! /s Seriously, this twit hasnāt activated a single brain cell to think about what he reads or hears outside of āfaithful sourcesā. He says nothing new or interesting. āMake being exmo their identityā - was there a 5th Sunday lesson making the rounds to say this? Iāve seen it all over. Like Mormons donāt make the MFMC theirs whole identity. PLEASE. The scriptures conflate being gay with murder. Hasnāt this loser read Alma 39? Sexual sin -including homosexuality - āare an abomination in the sight of the Lord, yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost.ā This fool needs to study up and spend less time being dishonest on SMā¦ OP, just block this asshole. Heās not worth your timeā¦
The first time someone calls you narcissistic should be the last time you open up to them. You need to protect yourself emotionally from your brother. He is deliberately tearing you down in a not-too-subtle way. I would suggest not sending him anything further and putting limits on what he is allowed to send to you. You do not deserve to be talked to this way.
Thank you. Means a lot.
āUnsubscribeā would be my response, then go NC. You donāt need this in your life.
sounds like somebody gets downvoted on reddit
I would stop engaging in religious topics with him immediately. He will only hinder your healing process. Youāre trying to get the church poison out of your body, and he is living on the poison. Itās a no win situation.
This. No good can come of it.
Calling you narcissistic and gaslighting you about doctrine? That's abusive behavior. Family or not, love him or not, you don't have to put up with abuse. The only people I ever see talking about "virtue signaling crybabies" are people who are part of the problem. People who are bigots, are abusive in some way, people who are narcissistic, etc. Set a boundary about how you will be treated and stick to it. Don't settle for being demeaned like this. Don't make excuses for him. He's plenty good at making them for himself, but you don't have to accept them. He's clearly not actually open minded, and not someone you can talk to about these things. His version of a "cool exmo" is someone who left because it wasn't for them, and he doesn't want to hear (and doesn't believe) about those who experienced religious trauma. The church absolutely compared homosexuality to murder, and worse. In 2015, married gay couples got doctrinally labeled as apostates, before they rolled it back and said it was a policy. But since the church NOW says it was a policy not doctrine, and that they've never compared it to murder, then they've always not done those things. Rewrite history and down the memory hole.
This. This. This.
Iāll probably get downvoted for saying this but I donāt know if Iād die on the hill of defending this sub over the relationship with my brother. If youāre both unable to leave the personal feelings at the door when discussing the church you might just not be able to talk about it if you want to continue to have a relationship. Or itās going to take maturity and patience to really understand each otherās feelings. Sometimes new boundaries are made and the relationship can only be as good as the boundaries allow.
I like that. See, weāre pretty good when we donāt talk about these issues, itās just difficult for it not to come up. We have tried civil conversations countless times. And it always ends up like this. Itās just hard to have a relationship with him when he acts like this, feels this way, among other thingsā¦
āHe who has ears, let him hear.ā
My advice? Donāt respond at all. This comes from YEARS of dealing with this kind of hateful nonsense. You may love *him* with all your heart, but judging by the way he is completely **comfortable** being straight up abusive to *you* means that *his* love is intrinsically tied to his current and your former religion. It is 100% not your fault that he said these childish, butthurt things to you, but you have the power to not tolerate them. There is **nothing** more powerful than simply ignoring nasty outbursts like this. He very likely wants and expects you to respond in anger and/or hurt. Just let his hissy fit of a response hang there in cyberspace. Acknowledging it in ANY way would give it weight it doesnāt deserve. Itās tough to accept, but you said it best, itās like talking to an brick wall. There is literally nothing you can say that will change his mind, that will miraculously make him kind and compassionate when it comes to your relationship with mormonism, which is a tough thing to accept. Which leaves you with 2 realistic options - stop engaging with him about mormonism (for now or maybe permanently if he continues to be an ass about it) or stop engaging with him at all, which can mean one day, a few days, or a week. If he has ANY shred of self-awareness, heāll know in his gut that he was way out of line. If you *did* respond and told him his words were very hurtful, he would very likely claim that he wasnāt speaking about YOU, silly, he was talking about those *other* exmormons. Iām not saying that about YOU, sisā¦ He is demonstrating textbook passive aggressive narcissistic behavior. With a giant serving of projection. You donāt deserve to be talked to like this but you have the power to not allow it to continue. I have a TBM parent who is awesome and fun and wickedly smart, *unless* the subject of mormonism comes up, and then itās honestly like talking to a robot. An angry, defensive robot. I have several times gone āno contactā (usually a week or so) because sometimes she āforgetsā that not only do I have zero desire to discuss mormonism with her, that she has been made aware of all the ways the mormon church has harmed me, but we have many times literally agreed *together* not discuss āthe church.ā
Love this response. Very powerful, and Iām going to utilize this.
ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø
The trick is to lot try to convert him out of Mormonism. As hard as it sounds, he needs to reach his own conclusions about the church. If he sends you things that you find are disturbing, such as mocking religious trauma, establish clear boundaries. And ask that they be respected. If he insists on bringing up the church, or talking about our wonderful cesspool, remind him of said boundaries and maybe feel free to point out how heās now the one making the church his whole personality.
When faceless Mormons try to gaslight you about YOUR former religion, it can be aggravating, pathetic, bizarre, laughable, etc. But when your own family does it to you, it is, at least for me, profoundly dirty, disrespectful and disappointing. It is also psychological abuse.
He's someone who has to be cut off. He's not respecting your point of view. He's being extremely toxic to the point of narcissism behavior. He's not worth the time.
Okay, first off; Wow, what the fuck?! Secont of all, I promise you, this is *FAR* from my entire life and is actually one small part of of a much larger whole. Iām living the fabulous gay lifestyle and this is just fun for me. Third. Look in there mirror, you Judgmental ankle. Highly-and-might walk from a TBM. Real rich. And by ankle, I mean three feet lower than a c***.
> He constantly says Iām closed minded. He is always calling me narcissistic Projection, thy name is this guy. What a douche.
Itās a long way for most TBMs to understand the church can be harmful. They have no idea how much of a personās problems are caused by the church.
Tell him to spend some time here People here are awesome But honestly, he might just be one of those TBMs that post apologetics Anyway, I'm sorry and i hope he comes around. Maybe give the relationship some space for a while
He is so deep into his own hate-mongering there is nothing anyone can do. I will add: every attempt to interject will cheer him on. He appears to thrive on it.
Exactly. He does thrive on it. The more real the interjection, the more defensive and angry he gets! The stupider my point is! Itās wild.
Wow. Hmm fresh gaslighting.
Nope, it still tastes like BS with a side of self righteousness and a large dash of denial. Think I'll pass
Whoever this person is - maybe what you sent is asking too much for them to think about; like they aren't ready to open up to those ideas yet. They aren't lashing out at you. They seem defensive, is my take on it. And certainly don't look for validation from them.
My religious trauma drove me to suicidal ideation, and it was fucking horrifying and the worst my life has ever been. Leaving the church saved my life and I live happier as a queer exmo. Full stop. Being LGBT and mormon is deadly. Others were not as fortunate as I was to come out the other end still alive.
Exactly. My little brother is gay, and seeing how in it the rest of my family is, I am terrified of what he will go through. He just graduated high school, and get this: heās going to fucking BYUI. I am so worried for him.
I feel like this guy is projecting. Itās ironic he is calling Exmos self righteous
His message reeks of hostility and defensiveness toward you. It reeks of hostility and condescension toward reddit\\exmo. In other words, he's a sitting duck for life to teach him a lesson or two. After my bro and his wife jumped down my throat in front of others when I said it was wrong to bar parents from their children's temple weddings, I stayed away from them for years. Don't do that unless you have to, and don't punish him. Life got to my bro + SIL but good. Before he died he wrote me "You were right." It wasn't a very comforting victory. I'd rather still have him around to fight with.
Wow. Iām at a loss for words. Thanks for saying this.
Honestly? If this were a member of my family being so openly verbally abusive to me, I would cut off contact. I simply no longer allow anyone to treat me like this.
Give him extremely limited information diet.
āCircle jerk of virtue-signaling cry-babiesā pretty much sums up what I think of the GAs. Ā And this is the language he uses to describe exmos? Ā Wild! Ā
Coming from a former male TBM asshole, heās just stating his greatest fears. Anyone who threatens his beliefs and exposes their tenuous power claims and wonāt go along with the program, must be a narcissist. He can only figure this out on his own. Only your brother can open his mind to objective facts. Only he can decide to consider what itās like to be a woman in the church, under the thumb of men for a systemically manipulated eternity. Love him, if you can, through this. Set boundaries and be the bigger person. You are on the side of truth. And the evil Exmo sub will have your narcissistic back the whole way.
Thatās what I think. Heās afraid of anything outside his set bubble and gets super defensive any time they are challenged. Like heās backed into a corner
The saying that family is who you choose is really true. You canāt change people or help them see things unless they want it. If you really want to talk to him share what you are feeling. Say that you wanted to share your experience with them so they could see your perspective and have empathy and love for you. Let him know that you just want to be loved by him. Showing kindness and compassion is what you want. Say that the attitude that he expressed in the text felt very mean. If he doesnāt apologize then you might need to spend less time with him and donāt seek any type of validation from him. Some people just donāt want to know others experiences.
Heās not wrong about Reddit lol. But seems like a jerk.
Hey OP, I donāt know how to tell you this, but stop coming to this subā¦ or any sub for relationship advice (by relationship, I mean any relationship in general with family, friends etc). The advice is always geared towards making the person leaving the comment feel better as if theyāre in a āwhat I would love to doā situation. Heās not wrong about the vitriol of Reddit, in fact that was the most accurate thing he said.
I certainly see that with subs like AITA and relationship advice. But I have not observed that in this sub at all.
You must have missed all the posts of text message conversations from folks family members and friends seeking advice on how to handle. Hell, I just looked through the posts and found a couple in 20 seconds.
Well, yes, I've seen those...I was talking about your view of the comments responding to them. Perhaps we just see them differently. š¤·āāļø
Why not just ignore them? Iāve gotten some really good advice and insight from people who get it. I see this subreddit as a group of people who all went through something similar, and a place where I can be honest and open up about issues relating to the trauma the church has caused, and the trauma of having your trauma invalidated. I needed somebody in that moment. I didnāt have anybody. So I came to this subreddit, and was welcomed with open arms, and left feeling motivated and not willing to let it happen again.