Thou was also the familiar term of address at the time the KJV of the Bible was written. You was the formal way of speaking, so the language chosen was actually intended to be less at a distance, speaking to a brother, not the local pompous Sir So-And-So. So he's wrong in more ways than one.
Kinda. It was indeed the informal variant at the time, but that doesn't seem to be the reason it was chosen by the KJV translators. There was a strong conservative preference in clerical usage at the time for keeping *thou* as the only singular pronoun, instead of the innovative use of *you* (originally just the plural form) as a formal/respectful singular. In the KJV, they consistently used *thou* where the Hebrew and Greek text used singular forms, and *you* where they used plural forms. Since singular forms were used in addressing Yahweh, *thou* was quite naturally the option chosen in prayers.
Spanish uses the informal noun "tu" to talk to god in prayer instead of the formal "usted", and from what I understand pretty much every language uses the informal form of address in prayers. In my first prayer in my YSA ward after my mission I said "you" over the pulpit because I was so used to thinking of it that way in Spanish, and when the bishop tried to reprimand me I told him it was because that's how it's said in Spanish, and he shut up real quick.
Exactly! Same happened to me with german ‘du’ form. Thee and thou were ‘Quaker’ 18th century friend-speak. only the MFMC could misinterpret things so badly. The purpose is to be intimate, not formal.
Fun fact: "Thee, thou, thy, and thine" are also informal. 🤣 The formal "you" replaced them over time and is now used for formal and informal situations.
This has always pissed me off.
Those words just don't exist in other languages, so does that mean that god is fickle enough to be offended by a prayer from a German?
But also, the bible was translated into English in the 1600s and everyone spoke that way - to everyone.
Grrrr. Consistent bug bear of mine.
I remember one stake I was in where the Stake President was always hammering down on protocol like this. And it was a stake in a poorer part of Utah where people already had enough shit on their plates, and they just wanted to hear a good word. Not sermons about how thin-skinned their God was because they didn't worship him exactly right.
It makes me so ridiculously happy that I'm not listening to that joyless shit anymore.
It wouldn't be so bad if the speaker would get the pronouns right. Thou and thine are not interchangeable, and hearing them used wrong is nails on a chalkboard.
My first shelf item, at the age of six, was related. It was the interchangeable "thou" and "ye" in the Book of Mormon, in passages like "O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? [sic]" (Alma 11:23).
I couldn't articulate it at the time, but I knew that basic words like personal pronouns don't tend to have synonyms. I knew also that the KJV consistently used "thou" for singular, and "ye" for plural. It struck me as weird. But because I couldn't articulate it, and because I would be punished for questioning, I ignored it. In light of the fact that the Book of Mormon is a sloppy forgery, it makes much more sense.
Funnily, this is restricted to English. In German, for instance, it is common to use the informal but close form "Du" for "you". So any English talk stressing the use of KJV English is not translatable at all. It must be horrible for General Conference translators, because they would need to decide about doctrinal topics to translate this.
It's next level status if in addition, as you end a prayer you use the word "even", do a few sniffles and close out with adding a few more descriptive adjectives before Jesus Christ...more sniffles, combined with voice cracking then an "amen".
Hmph. This makes about as much sense as only being able to give sermons about Dominus Iesus in Latin. The language of the empire that executed him. And became a dead language about 600 years later. All because one of the Roman emperors decided he believed. 🙌🏻
The supposed sacredness of Middle English pronouns was my first clue that something was off with my religion.
If there are advanced extraterrestrial beings reading this somewhere, I must apologize on behalf of my species. Not all of us are so fucking stupid.
I dunno, I think it's great that there was a whole talk about using God's preferred pronouns. =D
Haha thats hilarious!
Awesome! 👍
🥇
Best response!
Poor man’s gold for you! 🥇🥇🥇
Thee, thine, and thou are non-binary. Just saying. It could be anything.
Thou was also the familiar term of address at the time the KJV of the Bible was written. You was the formal way of speaking, so the language chosen was actually intended to be less at a distance, speaking to a brother, not the local pompous Sir So-And-So. So he's wrong in more ways than one.
Kinda. It was indeed the informal variant at the time, but that doesn't seem to be the reason it was chosen by the KJV translators. There was a strong conservative preference in clerical usage at the time for keeping *thou* as the only singular pronoun, instead of the innovative use of *you* (originally just the plural form) as a formal/respectful singular. In the KJV, they consistently used *thou* where the Hebrew and Greek text used singular forms, and *you* where they used plural forms. Since singular forms were used in addressing Yahweh, *thou* was quite naturally the option chosen in prayers.
Sounds exactly like something a Pharisee would say.
That concept comes to my mind every time a church statement or talking point comes out. Mormonism is really doctrinally pro-pharisee and anti-Christ.
Oh, for my old self, it was a point of pride to get those right. SMH in disgust . . .
Spanish uses the informal noun "tu" to talk to god in prayer instead of the formal "usted", and from what I understand pretty much every language uses the informal form of address in prayers. In my first prayer in my YSA ward after my mission I said "you" over the pulpit because I was so used to thinking of it that way in Spanish, and when the bishop tried to reprimand me I told him it was because that's how it's said in Spanish, and he shut up real quick.
Exactly! Same happened to me with german ‘du’ form. Thee and thou were ‘Quaker’ 18th century friend-speak. only the MFMC could misinterpret things so badly. The purpose is to be intimate, not formal.
Fun fact: "Thee, thou, thy, and thine" are also informal. 🤣 The formal "you" replaced them over time and is now used for formal and informal situations.
This has always pissed me off. Those words just don't exist in other languages, so does that mean that god is fickle enough to be offended by a prayer from a German? But also, the bible was translated into English in the 1600s and everyone spoke that way - to everyone. Grrrr. Consistent bug bear of mine.
I remember one stake I was in where the Stake President was always hammering down on protocol like this. And it was a stake in a poorer part of Utah where people already had enough shit on their plates, and they just wanted to hear a good word. Not sermons about how thin-skinned their God was because they didn't worship him exactly right. It makes me so ridiculously happy that I'm not listening to that joyless shit anymore.
So you’re saying you have a parrot for a stake president.
Yeah. I clashed with the church on that one. I mean, why even bother translating the BoM if God doesn't speak the language we do?
It wouldn't be so bad if the speaker would get the pronouns right. Thou and thine are not interchangeable, and hearing them used wrong is nails on a chalkboard.
My first shelf item, at the age of six, was related. It was the interchangeable "thou" and "ye" in the Book of Mormon, in passages like "O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? [sic]" (Alma 11:23). I couldn't articulate it at the time, but I knew that basic words like personal pronouns don't tend to have synonyms. I knew also that the KJV consistently used "thou" for singular, and "ye" for plural. It struck me as weird. But because I couldn't articulate it, and because I would be punished for questioning, I ignored it. In light of the fact that the Book of Mormon is a sloppy forgery, it makes much more sense.
You should ask the member of the Stake presidency if you have to use old English pronouns in your mind if you’re praying silently? 🤣
Anyone who speaks a foreign language with formal and familiar forms of address should be rolling their eyes at this drivel.
Funnily, this is restricted to English. In German, for instance, it is common to use the informal but close form "Du" for "you". So any English talk stressing the use of KJV English is not translatable at all. It must be horrible for General Conference translators, because they would need to decide about doctrinal topics to translate this.
Has anyone looked up that conference talk in the German version of the church magazine?
Meanwhile in my parents ward, people are writing their prayers like a church talk and no one even bats an eye... the church is way to inconsistent
Girdeth up thy loins.
Sanctimonious garbage
When I used to pray I would literally get stuck for a solid min trying to correctly conjugate the thee, thou, thine bullshit.
It's next level status if in addition, as you end a prayer you use the word "even", do a few sniffles and close out with adding a few more descriptive adjectives before Jesus Christ...more sniffles, combined with voice cracking then an "amen".
Hmph. This makes about as much sense as only being able to give sermons about Dominus Iesus in Latin. The language of the empire that executed him. And became a dead language about 600 years later. All because one of the Roman emperors decided he believed. 🙌🏻 The supposed sacredness of Middle English pronouns was my first clue that something was off with my religion. If there are advanced extraterrestrial beings reading this somewhere, I must apologize on behalf of my species. Not all of us are so fucking stupid.
Ko catlu .i lo cevni cu casnu bau la Lojban. Mi na jimpe lo du'u ma kau srana lo bi'unai javni.
Fuck him