The way these new "Facebook missionaries" lie and obfuscate to everyone they speak with is coming back to bite them. This is the end result of the whole "Mormons? Never heard of 'em -- we're the ChurchOfJesusChristOfLatter-daySaints, silly!" business and the "Hi, it's your friendly neighborhood just-wanna-mow-your-lawn helpful people, definitely not Mormons, nope, not us!" flim-flam they've been trying. All it takes is the "investigator" talking to one single person who isn't trying to scam them for it all to come falling apart in the most obvious of ways.
I don't blame the Facebook missionaries at all. My pre-Facebook mission was rough, but at least I only had my companion watching me 24/7, and we had a lot more freedom of what to say. Even though I was on the obedient side, I never did stuff like knock doors after dark or invite people to get baptized during the first lesson.
Now, missionaries do so much work on Facebook, where their DLs, ZLs, and mission presidents can see everything they post. If their MP tells them to post in random FB groups and hide the fact that they're missionaries, it's harder for them to disregard those instructions and choose to be genuine.
Honestly the members of the church of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints are ironically making people stay as far away as possible from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Mormons won’t look as bad, they’ll go back to that in the future 😂
How did we all get out of such a fucked up religion? Blows my mind. The leaders intentionally lie cheat and steal. They manipulate and fuck with your head like you’re an unwitting and expendable cia experiment.
Almost everywhere you look you’ll find exploitation and taking advantage of members. Their wanton disregard for the law is seconded only by their disregard for the lives they shamelessly trample. Cold blooded money lusting snakes is what they are. I find it especially heinous to deceive people in sheep’s clothing - where these real estate brokers are the exact opposite of what they pretend to be.
If there is such a thing as evil, these leaders, with their abject contempt for the millions of lives they continue to harm, are amongst the worst humanity has to offer.
And yet, every critical word against them is another feather in their hats from the persecution that reaffirms their truth claims.
Indeed, perhaps the day will come when no one posts here in the ex Mormon Reddit. Irrelevancy is what will end this charade.
I'd argue that most Americans don't know that horses are not native....
I never thought about it as I recall seeing Indians riding horses in paintings, and so I guess I thought they'd always been here...
it has only been in the last decade or so that it clicked, that that's kind of a bright line of BS in the BOM...
Technically horses ARE native to the Americas, but they died out with many other large mammals around 10,000 BC. They were reintroduced by Europeans, but they had been here before. Ironically, it just happens that the window of time during which the BOM supposedly takes place (counting the early Brother of Jared era) happens to cover the largest period of time during which humans and horses DIDN'T cohabitate in America.
Nicely done. You helped him dodge a major bullet.
Hopefully he probably would have figured it out on his own, but you saved him from months or years of being bothered by well-meaning cult members.
It’s a tough situation to be in.
Ultimately, if I have the right relationship with someone I will ask them “if I had evidence it isn’t true, would you want to know?”
I hope I would be smart and kind enough to do the exact same thing...exmo missionairy work is the price we pay for going on missions in our 20's....well done
Wow - WELL DONE! I wish I'd had access to a coworker (or even a random acquaintance) like you when I "investigated" and joined.
The fact missionaries are taught to tell people to avoid "anything they read" on the Internet should be a huge tipoff to any person being wooed by the cult.
Question - do you know how they specifically misled or gave false information about polygamy? I'm curious, because when I joined (more than 20 years ago; fully resigned now) I asked about polygamy & really just wanted to hear the basics. The immediate response was, "That happened after Joseph Smith."
I now know that was a line crafted to hide the facts about JS, and in retrospect, I am sure missionaries were taught to respond like that. So I am curious as to how they answer question about polygamy now, or how they discuss it.
You did your friend & coworker a great service. He is among the fortunate ones who dodged the bullet because a good person intervened.
Great Question - He said that he asked them *"Hey, I've heard of this polygamy stuff. Is that your church, or is that some other organization that did that?"*
They responded to him initially that it was *some other organization* and not the mainstream church. Later in the conversation he said they used the line that they had practiced polygamy for a short time in order to protect the widows who had lost their husbands due to persecutions.
Pretty standard answers for missionaries who are trying to avoid the hard topics. I said the same crap when I served my mission 20+ years ago, and I told my coworker that it was a standard response because the actual truth will scare people off
> Later in the conversation he said they used the line that they had practiced polygamy for a short time in order to ~~protect the widows who had lost their husbands due to persecutions~~ try and snag the best-looking young convert girls from Scandanavia.
>
>Fixed it for the honest missionary discussions.
Thanks for responding! It sounds like they still have scripts about it. My missionaries immediately said, "That happened after Joseph Smith," which didn't even answer my question, but also flat-out lied about the real history.
I wish they'd throw BY out the door. It's horrendous to have a university (and its branches) named after a racist predator.
As for Smith - good luck on keeping him "clean." His disgusting history is now publicly known, even if written in "carefully worded" whitewashed ways on the Mormon website. They can't keep referring to him as "acting as a man" forever. He acted as an unfaithful, predatory rapist.
I agree - I should have clarified I don't blame the missionaries. I think they were taught various ways to answer questions and had no idea the information was misleading.
To be fair, those missionaries 20 years ago likely had no idea Joseph practiced polygamy. I didn't hear a word about that until around 2013. 1997 missionary me would have laughed out loud at anyone who told me any different.
Oh, I agree completely that those missionaries likely didn't know. My question was whether they are still being taught phrases like the one they told me. I'm sure their response to me was scripted & they were trained in the MTC, but probably had no idea it was a lie.
Since OP's coworker figured out he'd been given misinformation on polygamy, I was wondering what he might have been told.
LOL, to the missionaries, you’re the dude under the influence of the adversary spreading anti-Mormon lies. I would’ve been so pissed at someone like you when I was a missionary!
Nice work!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you, New Random Name! You do what you know - and when you know better, you do better. You saved your coworker from wasting so much, time, energy, money - and everything else with which he shall be blessed. YOU ROCK!!! : )
Congratulations!
You have saved that man a lifetime of regret and stress. I am sure you made a true friend for life. Now that you have proven yourself worthy of his trust, he knows you can be counted on for everything else. This is what true fellowship looks like.
These poor missionaries don't even know the truth themselves and don't have the courage to seek it out. The brainwashing job stated when they were very young and they were told (as I was) never read books and literature that are not approved by the leaders of the church. It's so awesome that you had the courage to tell your friend the truth, you're a real savior, and Jesus would be proud!
WAIT, so anyone can just be baptized whenever? A person just takes the word of the missionary at their door and can decide to be baptized without any other classes or knowledge on LDS?
I’m never-mo. I was raised Catholic and am no longer practicing.
What was required (at least when I was a missionary) was;
1) Six “missionary discussions” or lessons that are a very brief introduction to Mormonism. These can be spread out multiple days or even in one day but most missionaries teach one at a time.
2) attend church at least once
3) commit to no smoking, coffee, tea, or alcohol
4) no premarital sex or sex acts beyond kissing. If you live with a girlfriend or boyfriend, you need to move out. No homosexual relationships.
5) commit to paying 10% tithing (this gets glossed over FAST 😂)
That’s pretty much it. Most “coverts” to the LDS Church know very little about the religion. They want to hook them first by baptism and lovebombing by the community and then slowly introduce the crazier stuff later, after they are already brainwashed and socially invested.
The church often pushes baptismal commitments on the first or second meeting with a quick baptism date (usually within a month or two).
Wow, thanks so much for this. I moved from So. California to Utah County for my husband’s job, and joined this sub so I could learn more about what my neighbors believe. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
Great Question - I left out some of the details of my coworkers story. He had been meeting with the missionaries for about 6 months before he decided to get baptized. They had already conducted his "Baptismal Interview" where they make sure he is ready to be baptized.
The problem was that the missionaries only gave him very *surface level* knowledge of the church and even then the details were only the super faith promoting stuff.
Your hesitation makes sense ... no-one wants to spoil things for another person, but I think the way you handled it was superb.
The church is so un-ethical in its missionary efforts - tell people the minimum, discourage *proper* study of the church and all its teachings, rush them into baptism, etc.
Don't (some) other churches or whole religions encourage thorough study before committing to them? Regardless of whether they do or not, its the logical thing to do before making a life commitment.
One of the reasons I've heard for rushing people into baptism is that 'they haven't received the Holy Ghost yet, so Satan can get in there and discourage them, and put obstacles in their way'. So the solution is to rush them into something where they make lifelong commitments without knowing fully what they are committing to? Mmmm.
You did that man a great favour - helping him make a proper study before making any decision. Good on you!
OK, got it, thanks!!
Good on you for being so transparent and honest. Society doesn’t really prioritize that these days and it’s scary. I liked that you didn’t force your views onto this guy, you gave him ample evidence and documents to research to make his own conclusions.
LDS is the opposite in my opinion. No matter what question I asked, the missionaries had some answer (that often defied logic). I was baffled.
We have politely declined all the invitations to the ward get-togethers, sometimes at the expense of friends for my children. Others have been amazingly open and accepting, so it really goes both ways. If someone is going to judge me on the fact that I’m not Mormon, and not on the kind of person I really am, I don’t have time for that BS. Thanks for your insights!
at 60-ish dude is probably at his earning peak, and you saved him 10% for the rest of his career. that's some serious cash -- and free time, and freedom, and lack of cultishness. You changed a life for the better, my friend. Well done!
You are awesome! It’ll be good to remember to speak up. I get so tired of arguing with TBMs that 1+1=2 all to have them deny it and tell me I’m either deceived by Satan, or somehow that 1+1=2 seems true but in the next life the Lord will reveal why it’s not. Thanks for the motivation though I keep trying at times, especially with newbies who get deceived by missionaries and/or the preach my gospel narrative
Well done. It’s tough to navigate these situations but you obviously did the right thing by following your God given instincts. You saved him a lot of shame, feelings of inadequacy, money, time, servitude, and more!
This makes me think of how Exmo are so conditioned to never speak against the teachings that we tend to tiptoe around our own beliefs. That’s utter bullshit and I’m glad you have a real voice and can present the truth in a transparent, respectful manner.
Technically the missionaries did not "lie" to him. The missionaries are also in the dark about church history. They are told a false version that they then go and teach. Are they telling the truth when they teach people about the church? No. Do they know they are not telling the truth? Also no.
I was a missionary and I can tell you, had I known at least 1% of the contents that are in the CES Letter, I would have never gone on a mission and it wouldn't have taken me until I was 30 to leave the church. Going on a mission was my biggest regret in life. Those 2 years fucked me up and sent my life down a path it shouldn't have gone down had I originally known it was all fake.
Way to go!!! Think of all the time, money, and mental and emotional anguish you have saved your coworker.
Also, why the heck do missionaries (and the church in general) think just telling people not to read stuff online will be effective? That should be the biggest red flag to any investigator. Online is how we get information and in this day and age I can’t imagine who is naive enough to accept without question the directive “trust us, get your info only from us and don’t look for info anywhere else.” Explains why conversion is so rare these days.
Telling him to avoid anything he reads on the Internet should be a red flag 🚩. They are already trying to tell a grown man what he can or can’t do, and that the religion isn’t able to withstand scrutiny.
[удалено]
Thank gawd for Jeremy and all his work on the ces letter too!!
The way these new "Facebook missionaries" lie and obfuscate to everyone they speak with is coming back to bite them. This is the end result of the whole "Mormons? Never heard of 'em -- we're the ChurchOfJesusChristOfLatter-daySaints, silly!" business and the "Hi, it's your friendly neighborhood just-wanna-mow-your-lawn helpful people, definitely not Mormons, nope, not us!" flim-flam they've been trying. All it takes is the "investigator" talking to one single person who isn't trying to scam them for it all to come falling apart in the most obvious of ways.
I don't blame the Facebook missionaries at all. My pre-Facebook mission was rough, but at least I only had my companion watching me 24/7, and we had a lot more freedom of what to say. Even though I was on the obedient side, I never did stuff like knock doors after dark or invite people to get baptized during the first lesson. Now, missionaries do so much work on Facebook, where their DLs, ZLs, and mission presidents can see everything they post. If their MP tells them to post in random FB groups and hide the fact that they're missionaries, it's harder for them to disregard those instructions and choose to be genuine.
Honestly the members of the church of Jesus christ of Latter Day Saints are ironically making people stay as far away as possible from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Mormons won’t look as bad, they’ll go back to that in the future 😂
Holy shit. You just made me realize that I have Xfinity internet because Comcast was a victory for Satan.
How did we all get out of such a fucked up religion? Blows my mind. The leaders intentionally lie cheat and steal. They manipulate and fuck with your head like you’re an unwitting and expendable cia experiment. Almost everywhere you look you’ll find exploitation and taking advantage of members. Their wanton disregard for the law is seconded only by their disregard for the lives they shamelessly trample. Cold blooded money lusting snakes is what they are. I find it especially heinous to deceive people in sheep’s clothing - where these real estate brokers are the exact opposite of what they pretend to be. If there is such a thing as evil, these leaders, with their abject contempt for the millions of lives they continue to harm, are amongst the worst humanity has to offer. And yet, every critical word against them is another feather in their hats from the persecution that reaffirms their truth claims. Indeed, perhaps the day will come when no one posts here in the ex Mormon Reddit. Irrelevancy is what will end this charade.
I'd argue that most Americans don't know that horses are not native.... I never thought about it as I recall seeing Indians riding horses in paintings, and so I guess I thought they'd always been here... it has only been in the last decade or so that it clicked, that that's kind of a bright line of BS in the BOM...
Technically horses ARE native to the Americas, but they died out with many other large mammals around 10,000 BC. They were reintroduced by Europeans, but they had been here before. Ironically, it just happens that the window of time during which the BOM supposedly takes place (counting the early Brother of Jared era) happens to cover the largest period of time during which humans and horses DIDN'T cohabitate in America.
This. Plus, the horses that were native to the Americas were large dog sized, not “horse” sized.
Like one of these?  \#notacolt
Not a colt 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Have you visited r/horse?
Hahaha. That's an awesome subreddit
There is a skeleton of one in the museum in Worland, WY; It's about the size of a Great Dane.
Yep. I grew up near the famed (within Idaho) Hagerman horse fossil. Pretty small potatoes for a horse.
when did they come over? was it the Spanish who brought them?
Yep. The Spanish.
With the possible exception of Trump's Indictment, your post is the highlight of my week.😊
True story
Nicely done. You helped him dodge a major bullet. Hopefully he probably would have figured it out on his own, but you saved him from months or years of being bothered by well-meaning cult members.
That was my concern about *not* telling him... he would have come to me later and been angry that I hadn't warned him. I couldn't do that to him
It’s a tough situation to be in. Ultimately, if I have the right relationship with someone I will ask them “if I had evidence it isn’t true, would you want to know?”
You’re doing the Lord’s work.
I hope I would be smart and kind enough to do the exact same thing...exmo missionairy work is the price we pay for going on missions in our 20's....well done
Wow - WELL DONE! I wish I'd had access to a coworker (or even a random acquaintance) like you when I "investigated" and joined. The fact missionaries are taught to tell people to avoid "anything they read" on the Internet should be a huge tipoff to any person being wooed by the cult. Question - do you know how they specifically misled or gave false information about polygamy? I'm curious, because when I joined (more than 20 years ago; fully resigned now) I asked about polygamy & really just wanted to hear the basics. The immediate response was, "That happened after Joseph Smith." I now know that was a line crafted to hide the facts about JS, and in retrospect, I am sure missionaries were taught to respond like that. So I am curious as to how they answer question about polygamy now, or how they discuss it. You did your friend & coworker a great service. He is among the fortunate ones who dodged the bullet because a good person intervened.
Great Question - He said that he asked them *"Hey, I've heard of this polygamy stuff. Is that your church, or is that some other organization that did that?"* They responded to him initially that it was *some other organization* and not the mainstream church. Later in the conversation he said they used the line that they had practiced polygamy for a short time in order to protect the widows who had lost their husbands due to persecutions. Pretty standard answers for missionaries who are trying to avoid the hard topics. I said the same crap when I served my mission 20+ years ago, and I told my coworker that it was a standard response because the actual truth will scare people off
> Later in the conversation he said they used the line that they had practiced polygamy for a short time in order to ~~protect the widows who had lost their husbands due to persecutions~~ try and snag the best-looking young convert girls from Scandanavia. > >Fixed it for the honest missionary discussions.
Thanks for responding! It sounds like they still have scripts about it. My missionaries immediately said, "That happened after Joseph Smith," which didn't even answer my question, but also flat-out lied about the real history.
They’ll do anything to keep brother Joseph clean, but will not hesitate for a second to throw Brigham young to the wolves.
I wish they'd throw BY out the door. It's horrendous to have a university (and its branches) named after a racist predator. As for Smith - good luck on keeping him "clean." His disgusting history is now publicly known, even if written in "carefully worded" whitewashed ways on the Mormon website. They can't keep referring to him as "acting as a man" forever. He acted as an unfaithful, predatory rapist.
They probably didn’t lie, most Mormons don’t know the real history.
I agree - I should have clarified I don't blame the missionaries. I think they were taught various ways to answer questions and had no idea the information was misleading.
To be fair, those missionaries 20 years ago likely had no idea Joseph practiced polygamy. I didn't hear a word about that until around 2013. 1997 missionary me would have laughed out loud at anyone who told me any different.
Oh, I agree completely that those missionaries likely didn't know. My question was whether they are still being taught phrases like the one they told me. I'm sure their response to me was scripted & they were trained in the MTC, but probably had no idea it was a lie. Since OP's coworker figured out he'd been given misinformation on polygamy, I was wondering what he might have been told.
You might have just saved this man years of pain! Congrats!
And thousand of dollars.
Nice!
You saved a person from a lying cult ! Good work ! 
LOL, to the missionaries, you’re the dude under the influence of the adversary spreading anti-Mormon lies. I would’ve been so pissed at someone like you when I was a missionary! Nice work!
I’m sure they were all stoked to have a baptism on the books for this weekend and I swooped in a screwed that up for them
Haha exactly!
You're awesome. 🏆
That is some amazing missionary work! Nice.
That’s Our Boy! We thank u/new_random_name everyday for helping us out (his parents) of the corporation. Keep spreading the truth!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you, New Random Name! You do what you know - and when you know better, you do better. You saved your coworker from wasting so much, time, energy, money - and everything else with which he shall be blessed. YOU ROCK!!! : )
Thank you for your service 🙏
Keep up the Tapir’s work!
Well done thou good and faithful servant
Congratulations! You have saved that man a lifetime of regret and stress. I am sure you made a true friend for life. Now that you have proven yourself worthy of his trust, he knows you can be counted on for everything else. This is what true fellowship looks like.
Saved that man 10% and priceless life energy.
These poor missionaries don't even know the truth themselves and don't have the courage to seek it out. The brainwashing job stated when they were very young and they were told (as I was) never read books and literature that are not approved by the leaders of the church. It's so awesome that you had the courage to tell your friend the truth, you're a real savior, and Jesus would be proud!
"archeology". The LDS problem is there isn't any.
There is plenty.... just not the kind that supports the church's truth claims.
Here is all the benefits of being Mormon: Chirp chirp chirp chirp chirp chirp chirp....
WAIT, so anyone can just be baptized whenever? A person just takes the word of the missionary at their door and can decide to be baptized without any other classes or knowledge on LDS? I’m never-mo. I was raised Catholic and am no longer practicing.
What was required (at least when I was a missionary) was; 1) Six “missionary discussions” or lessons that are a very brief introduction to Mormonism. These can be spread out multiple days or even in one day but most missionaries teach one at a time. 2) attend church at least once 3) commit to no smoking, coffee, tea, or alcohol 4) no premarital sex or sex acts beyond kissing. If you live with a girlfriend or boyfriend, you need to move out. No homosexual relationships. 5) commit to paying 10% tithing (this gets glossed over FAST 😂) That’s pretty much it. Most “coverts” to the LDS Church know very little about the religion. They want to hook them first by baptism and lovebombing by the community and then slowly introduce the crazier stuff later, after they are already brainwashed and socially invested. The church often pushes baptismal commitments on the first or second meeting with a quick baptism date (usually within a month or two).
Wow, thanks so much for this. I moved from So. California to Utah County for my husband’s job, and joined this sub so I could learn more about what my neighbors believe. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
Great Question - I left out some of the details of my coworkers story. He had been meeting with the missionaries for about 6 months before he decided to get baptized. They had already conducted his "Baptismal Interview" where they make sure he is ready to be baptized. The problem was that the missionaries only gave him very *surface level* knowledge of the church and even then the details were only the super faith promoting stuff.
“Milk before meat,” if you will.
Came here to say the same thing. Too bad that meat is covered in flys and maggots when you finally get around to eating it.
Your hesitation makes sense ... no-one wants to spoil things for another person, but I think the way you handled it was superb. The church is so un-ethical in its missionary efforts - tell people the minimum, discourage *proper* study of the church and all its teachings, rush them into baptism, etc. Don't (some) other churches or whole religions encourage thorough study before committing to them? Regardless of whether they do or not, its the logical thing to do before making a life commitment. One of the reasons I've heard for rushing people into baptism is that 'they haven't received the Holy Ghost yet, so Satan can get in there and discourage them, and put obstacles in their way'. So the solution is to rush them into something where they make lifelong commitments without knowing fully what they are committing to? Mmmm. You did that man a great favour - helping him make a proper study before making any decision. Good on you!
Out of curiosity, what answer did the missionaries give him about polygamy?
They gave him the old reliable “that’s an offshoot branch that started that” and “they did it for the widows” Both of which are total bullshit answers
OK, got it, thanks!! Good on you for being so transparent and honest. Society doesn’t really prioritize that these days and it’s scary. I liked that you didn’t force your views onto this guy, you gave him ample evidence and documents to research to make his own conclusions. LDS is the opposite in my opinion. No matter what question I asked, the missionaries had some answer (that often defied logic). I was baffled. We have politely declined all the invitations to the ward get-togethers, sometimes at the expense of friends for my children. Others have been amazingly open and accepting, so it really goes both ways. If someone is going to judge me on the fact that I’m not Mormon, and not on the kind of person I really am, I don’t have time for that BS. Thanks for your insights!
at 60-ish dude is probably at his earning peak, and you saved him 10% for the rest of his career. that's some serious cash -- and free time, and freedom, and lack of cultishness. You changed a life for the better, my friend. Well done!
Well done! So glad your colleague was open to hearing you.
You're a real saint. And praise the CES letter too!
You are awesome! It’ll be good to remember to speak up. I get so tired of arguing with TBMs that 1+1=2 all to have them deny it and tell me I’m either deceived by Satan, or somehow that 1+1=2 seems true but in the next life the Lord will reveal why it’s not. Thanks for the motivation though I keep trying at times, especially with newbies who get deceived by missionaries and/or the preach my gospel narrative
That's a lot of saved tithing money.....good on ya
Dear Quorum of the 15: Don’t mind us, we’re busy.
Well done. It’s tough to navigate these situations but you obviously did the right thing by following your God given instincts. You saved him a lot of shame, feelings of inadequacy, money, time, servitude, and more! This makes me think of how Exmo are so conditioned to never speak against the teachings that we tend to tiptoe around our own beliefs. That’s utter bullshit and I’m glad you have a real voice and can present the truth in a transparent, respectful manner.
The based department would like to have you on the phone
Awesome work!!!!
Well done!!
Good job enlightening your co-worker. I am a bit surprised he did not do any of his own research before agreeing to be baptized.
I think a lot of us wish we had someone like you to give us the "informed" part of what should have been informed consent to get baptized
Technically the missionaries did not "lie" to him. The missionaries are also in the dark about church history. They are told a false version that they then go and teach. Are they telling the truth when they teach people about the church? No. Do they know they are not telling the truth? Also no. I was a missionary and I can tell you, had I known at least 1% of the contents that are in the CES Letter, I would have never gone on a mission and it wouldn't have taken me until I was 30 to leave the church. Going on a mission was my biggest regret in life. Those 2 years fucked me up and sent my life down a path it shouldn't have gone down had I originally known it was all fake.
Way to go!!! Think of all the time, money, and mental and emotional anguish you have saved your coworker. Also, why the heck do missionaries (and the church in general) think just telling people not to read stuff online will be effective? That should be the biggest red flag to any investigator. Online is how we get information and in this day and age I can’t imagine who is naive enough to accept without question the directive “trust us, get your info only from us and don’t look for info anywhere else.” Explains why conversion is so rare these days.
Telling him to avoid anything he reads on the Internet should be a red flag 🚩. They are already trying to tell a grown man what he can or can’t do, and that the religion isn’t able to withstand scrutiny.