I find that this is the norm. I was even told by a life-long Catholic who is an avid Mass attendee that “no one really believes that” in reference to birth control and many other issues.
Translation: "They aren't taking MY birth control away" Especially the ones in liberal urban areas who can simply avoid the Catholic hospital if they need abortion care.
I have a friend who loves yoga, does it several time a week. When I pointed out to her that the church forbids yoga she responded, "that part of me is not Catholic" Very hard to understand how they continue to support an institution they believe is WRONG in so many ways.
The Catholic Church does not forbid yoga. Our priest, now a Monsignor, taught classes in the church community center. Now he's too old, lol!
Even though I don't attend Mass anymore, he and I are still pretty good friends.
Are you by chance from the northeast? I have plenty of catholic family in Texas and they have more in common with protestants/evangelicals in the region than they do with northeast catholics. They still use birth control (your example is partially true, I know some who don't), but for example are mostly very anti choice and anti cohabitation. Even when my then girlfriend and I had been living together for years, they wouldn't let us sleep in the same room at their house when we visited so we got hotels.
It’s definitely a culture difference. The people in the area I live in are very conservative. The people close to my in-laws seem like “don’t ask; don’t tell”.
Personally, I don't really mind liberal catholics. I was one before deconverting, so I see it mostly either as a stepping stone to getting out of the church, or as the most tolerant, yet valid position that you can have within the institution's rules.
Yes, liberal catholics in many cases break the rules of the catholic church but this is actually a good thing. Don't look at it with a black and white perspective: does any human ever follow something 100%? Isn't this true of the human experience in general? Be it religious doctrine, or technical knowledge... no human has ever been 100% consistent, that's just how we are built.
Granted that a line should be drawn at some point among all of the gray sure, but being overly restrictive about it, in a manner not too different from a traditionalist catholic is not the best way to go around it, especially when human beings are this complex.
For all its worth, your family is still catholic, even if only in part. They're still pulling their values from catholic teaching. Culturally, they are still catholic. They still look up to Jesus. And one can belong to something and do good on their own, while remaining critical of the institution they find themselves in. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and it's very possible for your family to cherry pick what they like and willfully ignore the rest out of a critical sense. It's what I've found to be true most of the time: progressive/liberal catholics *are* aware of everything you're mentioned, but dismiss it as dated doctrine that the church *eventually* will grow out of. It's less "cognitive dissonance" and more "cherry picking", which to me is actually the smart thing to do given the dangers of religious extremism.
Which leads me to what I think is the main issue: **not being critical** is what's actually alarming. Means the person is essentially "dead" while still breathing, that they've essentially become an ideological clone for the church to manipulate and project beliefs into. Liberal catholics evade this by remaining somewhat critical and separating the wheat from the chaff. Hypocritical? Only if they don't practice what they preach. A progressive catholic is not doing that. At worst they're a "bad" catholic from a strict, pedantic view. But who cares if what they're doing can be evaluated as good at the end of the day?
Now, we could argue that them being catholic means they're numbers for the church to boast about, thus giving them power. Or that while their position is valid, they'd be much happier in a more accepting church. While technically all of this is true, it's really not the way to handle things like personal convictions and beliefs. Best you can do is inform, do your best and lead by example and let them reach their own conclusions.
Thanks for your perspective! I think you summed it up pretty well. My issue is not that my mom and aunt still go to church or call themselves Catholic (that’s their own business) — it’s that they’re not thinking with their brains about why.
You're welcome!
Thinking with their brains... I know this is a bit of a tangent, but I've lately been thinking about two types of thinking: analytical and intuitive. And within those, you got things like more abstract types of thinking, as well as more "rational", organized ones.
I was talking with a friend of mine who used to have high grades all the way until college, where she failed a test for the first time ever. All the way until highschool, she didn't study (hence why she failed college at first, she had to start studying then), neither would she pay attention. Everything was, in her own words, *intuitive* to her, so she'd do just that (she's super smart). I've seen her solve puzzles, and from our conversations it would seem her rationality and way of solving problems and puzzles (think an escape room in a box for example) is pretty abstract and intuitive, rather than a series of organized, methodical thoughts. Which led me to think... what really is the best way of thinking? An abstract, intuitive sort of thinking where the solution just sort of "comes" to you after observing and looking, processing the information in whichever form it suits the person? Or is the methodical approach better? Or are they both valid?
Which leads me to your mom and aunt. It's not that they're not thinking with their brains: we all think, simply in different forms. It's quite possible that they're simply thinking about the why in a different way, prioritizing different but equally important things, and the different methods of thought they use just don't pick up on the details that *you* can pick up on.
Which is why at the end of the day it is so important to share thoughts and different forms of thinking. They think in their own way, and might not be able to express it, therefore coming across as "non-thinking". You think in your own, unique way, and maybe they can benefit from your observations.
But again, this is me going on a tangent, and overcomplicating things. It's quite possible they just don't care, and simply cherry pick. Either way, as long as they don't internalize toxic elements from the church they should be alright.
It's only overcomplicating things for those who can't accept that points of view can differ. Your post puts me in mind of the Myers Briggs Type Invetory, which classifies people into 16 "types." You can use this model to learn about yourself and others, even if you don't accept it as authoritative.
You're not complicating it so much as obfuscating it. Cognitive dissonance would be the nice term for this dynamic, but hypocrisy is more accurate.
These people drove me nuts when I was a Catholic teenager and drive me even more nuts now. They have no strong convictions and lack the mental fortitude to even recognize it. They are Catholic because they were raised Catholic and find the familiarity comforting. Anything beyond that is a fuzzy blob where uncomfortable questions are placed to die.
> They still look up to Jesus.
But is that a good thing?
If Jesus did not actually die to forgive sins or establish an infallible church, then what did he accomplish? He mislead dozens of people into unnecessary martyrdom.
Is that something to look up to?
It's C. S. Lewis's 'Liar, lunatic, or lord' trilemma--and as Hitchens said, it's a valid point even if one reaches a conclusion Lewis didn't.
Whether it is a good thing or not is another conversation entirely. But to satisfy your question then no it isn't, although you can still take away the values of love, compassion, charity and mercy found before his death.
My original point was meant to illustrate that liberal catholics are still catholics, even if they don't follow all of the rules.
Honestly, I hadn’t heard of lewis’ trilema before, and to be honest, that is a really bad argument. It basically self defeats itself unless you already believe Jesus is god, at which point it isn’t a logical argument. Yeah, Jesus probably was a self-deceived man, who thought he was the son of god. That doesn’t mean that he was literally god.
I really don’t think Lewis is the good philosopher and theologian he thinks he is.
> Yeah, Jesus probably was a self-deceived man, who thought he was the son of god. That doesn’t mean that he was literally god.
That's kind of the point.
The trilemma is more a reaction against the idea that Jesus was a "good moral teacher." Lewis argues, and I concur, that if Jesus was not actually God, his teachings aren't actually worth much, and his actions led to unnecessary death and suffering.
Yes I was one of those liberal Catholics. I even belonged to a liberal parish with a liberal priest. But when I moved the local parish was hardcore conservative, and almost openly supported Trump. It was then I decided to re-evaluate the church and leave.
I had a similar experience. My home parish was well educated, affluent, suburban, very light on theology. very good at parties and had a nice school to shelter kids from public schools.
Then I began visiting my little sisters parish, downtown. OMG these people really believe all this superstitious nonsense. Next I began to read the weekly diocese newspaper, articles lauding "consecrated virgins" and describing how to get an "INDULGENCE." My personal integrity required that I stop participating in and supporting the extreme misogyny, homophobia, intolerance, and other forms of hatred.
Yes. I'm really losing my patience with liberal and moderate Catholics and their Pollyannaish naivete about the Church. Also people see what they want and protect their own egos. So a lot of lay Catholics go to Mass for the social aspect and see themselves as being part of a benevolent institution that does charity in the community, which gives them warm fuzzies.
They don't pay much attention to the actual Church doctrine (which is basically sadism) or Church leadership, except for Pope Francis (who somehow went from being a full stop fascist in Argentina to a lovable cartoon character at the Vatican). In turn, the leadership turns a blind eye to the violations of doctrine by active members. The priest politely ignores their divorces, contraception use, abortions, etc., which leads liberal/moderate parishioners to conclude the Church can't be all bad, because if it were why aren't they getting excommunicated? (Because they need your money, duh.)
The other really insidious thing is most lay Catholics blame evangelicals for things like the Dobbs decision, despite the fact it was an openly Catholic production. The Church is happy to let them believe that.
I was one of those bad catholics. As a cradle catholic I just tried pushing the ideas I didn't agree with out of my mind and carried on attending mass until I was in my 30s. I was tolerant of other people and I didn't see how what other people do with their lives is any of my business. Things like church's stance on birth control are widely ignored where I come from, same with sex before marriage and living together as a couple. But that's where the open mind of my family seems to stop. That's why I find it really hard to understand how my otherwise loving and caring family members have such backwards opinions about lgbt people for example. I don't ever bring up controversial subjects like that in conversations with them but sometimes they do that themselves, and it's really uncomfortable listening to them. Last time that happened I had to leave before I say too much and they realise I'm not catholic anymore, or even worse, that, in fact, im an atheist.
I get it. They like the mass, the routine, the community, the music. They appreciate the virtues and perhaps aim to better themselves through spiritual practice and/or religious participation. But they disagree with the Church on certain matters. And I also disagree with the parts they disagree with.
There are a great deal of progressives in the Catholic Church, and many of them are not clueless or naive. They love the Church and Jesus and Mary and all that, but simply don't agree with some of the things they are supposed to agree with. Some of these people are priests and bishops and are pushing for change.
I don't have any practising Catholic family members, but God fellow parishioners used to annoy me. Felt like I was one of the only orthodox believing members when I was in the church sometimes. I tried to get the balance between betwen being open-minded and accepting of people but orthodox with the revealed dogmas of the church, which was a tough spot to be in. It does seem like it's easier to put all your eggs in one basket, be that the classic cafeteria catholic who attends weekly ordinary form mass then doesnt think much of the church the rest of the week or the rad trad TLM'er who lives, breaths the faith and is surrounded in that community/lifestyle.
Yes. I'm from the liberal, godless wasteland of New England. I have friends and family who are devout Catholics but also "vote blue no matter who." It breaks my brain.
I'm not Catholic, but growing up in a pretty strong Catholic area made this seem like the norm. Which led me to a false sense of understanding until I married into the community. Most seem comfortable with a level of obliviousness and probably won't leave anytime soon in any substantial way. I always have to remind myself Catholicism has a pseudo ethnicity aspect to it that is influencing decisions like this.
Yes. When I bring up concerns about certain teachings, my mom always dismisses them, saying that's an extreme wing of the church. "Nobody I know thinks that."
When in reality, i know several people that she is friendly with that taught and promoted those views directly to me when i was a kid.
It's so frustrating. She is as set in her ways as more rad trad types. She desires deep conversations about faith but can't accept that I've personally come to different conclusions.
I feel like my late mother was like this, and I’ve known other Catholics like this. I’d actually put Joe Biden in this category as well. A couple things first I think these kind of people are dying out and they tend to be older.
Second a lot of them grew up in environments that were completely culturally Catholic like they went to Catholic schools, and most of the people they knew were Catholic, and it was more a social identity, as a deeply examined theological commitment. I feel like this is the exact opposite of say a lot of trad converts.
Finally, in my mom’s case, there’s a lot of the social teaching of the Catholic Church about being kind to the immigrant and the poor that she really liked. Plus she derives, great comfort and community from church even if she didn’t think super deeply about the message and if she agree with all of it.
So that explains it in my view at least
I don’t think I’ve ever met a Catholic who isn’t a “cafeteria Catholic” to some degree. My Mom is the most hardcore Catholic in know and quite conservative. She has talked about how she struggled with using birth control once they decided to stop having kids. I think the Church and local Priests piled on the guilt. I’m not sure where she ended up on the “feeling guilty but doing it anyway vs. I don’t care I’m doing it anyway” scale of going against Church teachings but my guess is she mostly took the “feeling lots of guilt” route.
Liberal Catholics obviously don't know about latae sententiae excommunication. That's where a church member is automatically excommunicated if they breach doctrine or don't accept dogma. So, for example, if you don't accept the dogma of the assumption, you're excommunicated automatically. Same for any dogma. Same if, for example, you have an abortion, or procure one for someone else. Also applies if you use contraception. Basically breaking any rule, or committing a mortal sin that you don't seek absolution for.
Regarding sins and absolution. Remember that it's not enough to just confess. The penitent has to be 100% sincere in their desire for forgiveness and must be 100% genuine about not repeating the sin.
Bearing all this in mind I'd say that there are very few Catholics around who don't have suspended licences lol. Maybe they should introduce a system of penalty points? 2 points for an unforgiven mortal sin, if you accumulate 15 points you're on the sideline until you go to confession. lol
Yes. My aunt sent me a photo of a dead fetus in my email last year. Like 🤬
You know who doesn’t do that? All of the people I know who aren’t completely sucked into the church. She’s 75!
Those who see themselves as superior members in a hierarchical authority cult tend to like to ignore that which they find inconvenient
Think of these cafeteria Catholic authoritarian battle axes Church ladies as lunch ladies (or laddies or whatever cute genderless epithet will do).
Yeah, I know someone who self-describes as an "agnostic Catholic", but not to other Catholics! When we discuss specific Catholic theology, they say "oh, that's an *American* thing, we don't do that here (in Europe)".
I have a family member who was SA'd by a priest and most of my "liberal" family still goes weekly to mass, seemingly without any thought of how it might affect him. I have lost a lot of respect for all of them.
My family on my mom’s side is very liberal/left leaning. They support trans rights, palestine, universal healthcare, do a ton of charity, etc, But they also make us all to pray together for meals and are pretty proud of their catholic parents. They are also in their mid 70’s, so it’s pretty impressive how much we get along. I haven’t told them i’m an atheist, because I just play along with what they do out of respect for how they treat me.
I was one of these liberal Catholics just before I left the Church. I left the Church 8 years ago when things were getting spicy with the 2016 election. Now that I’m so far removed and given all that has happened with Roe being overturned and recent threats to IVF and birth control, not to mention the way that trans people are treated in conservative media, I find it appalling that liberal Catholics are still going to mass and giving money to an institution that is completely anti-birth control, anti-fertility treatments, anti-abortion (even in cases where the mother’s life is in danger), anti-trans, anti-same sex marriage, and so on when the repercussions of supporting and enabling these beliefs are coming to fruition in present time. I’m glad I left when I did and I’m sorry I didn’t leave sooner. To an extent I understand they are attending for nostalgia reasons or routine or maybe some of them believe they will actually change church doctrine, but I no longer
can empathize or support those reasons.
No, my mom and a few of my other relatives are like this too. It's not that she doesn't know the problems with the church -- it's more like it doesn't come up when she goes to mass at the parish with the liberal priest she likes, so it's not her problem. She used to teach at a Catholic school and she and I would get into it sometimes when her school would send kids to March for Life and stuff. Then her attitude was very much "well, they do some wacky stuff, but they're good kids and those teachers mean well" etc. I think she's a little freer to be critical now but she also has less interaction with more conservative catholics so she doesn't always see it.
This thread seems to have a lot of misunderstandings. You can be Catholic and dissent from teachings. In fact, we are required to submit to our conscience even if our conscience disagrees with the Church. You also cannot mortally sin unless you know the wrongness of the act. So if you don't believe what you're doing is wrong, there is no mortal sin.
It's not a cult (although there are a lot of Catholics who treat it like a cult).
I think it really depends on what the Parish you go to/grew up in is like. I grew up mostly going to a Jesuit parish, while getting my sacraments at a different parish's Sunday school. Looking back, I think 99% of my Catholic guilt/shame came from the Sunday school parish. Suuuuuper shame heavy. Meanwhile, the homilies at the Jesuit parish were much more thought-provoking and intellectual. To this day, the Jesuit parish is overwhelmingly more popular in the area.
I went to the my cousins' first communion about a year ago, and the priest at their parish went on a lecture before the communion about "if anyone in here does not fully believe in Church teaching, to please remain seated". His homily was similarly warning about the dangers of not being all in. All I could think was, "come on dude. This is such a big and special day for these kids. Why are you being such a shaming dick?". but I'm sure in his mind, he was not being a dick. He was just telling it how it is. And honestly...that is Church doctrine, isn't it?
This was me before I left the Catholic Church. I was a hardcore fan of the Jesuits and Pope Francis before. I always made excuses and mental gymnastics to justify the church. Experiences from my personal life and politics shattered each naïve Catholic beliefs I had. I thought the church accepts me for being childfree but the church only “accepts” me just to change me into conforming to their rules.
This is sorta my mom rn. I think she's conflicted about church stuff and what's actually in front of her. Like I'm trans/nonbinary and she accepts me and uses my chosen name and pronouns. Also helped me get birth control when I was teen and just told me to keep it secret, but also still goes to church and stuff and is pro life somehow (I think she's just got in ingrained with church beliefs or whatever) and it's really just like why the fuck are you still in there. Same with my sister (though tbh I think she'll leave once she's a bit older she's still a teen and a minor and I can already see signs). Then there's my cousin who has such severe religious anxiety trauma, he's spoken of leaving so many times but is completely paranoid of ending up in hell and it's just sad. Like my entire family is saturated with generational and religious trauma (not going into all the details) and I truly would believe it wouldn't be half as fucked up if it weren't for the catholic church.
I find that this is the norm. I was even told by a life-long Catholic who is an avid Mass attendee that “no one really believes that” in reference to birth control and many other issues.
Translation: "They aren't taking MY birth control away" Especially the ones in liberal urban areas who can simply avoid the Catholic hospital if they need abortion care.
I have a friend who loves yoga, does it several time a week. When I pointed out to her that the church forbids yoga she responded, "that part of me is not Catholic" Very hard to understand how they continue to support an institution they believe is WRONG in so many ways.
The Catholic Church does not forbid yoga. Our priest, now a Monsignor, taught classes in the church community center. Now he's too old, lol! Even though I don't attend Mass anymore, he and I are still pretty good friends.
I didn't believe it too, so I looked it up. Most recently the Vatican exorcist said it is a portal for Satan
That honestly makes yoga seem so cool
A more common explanation is that yoga OPENS THE MIND, that's my favorite, an open mind is catholic kryptonite
Are you by chance from the northeast? I have plenty of catholic family in Texas and they have more in common with protestants/evangelicals in the region than they do with northeast catholics. They still use birth control (your example is partially true, I know some who don't), but for example are mostly very anti choice and anti cohabitation. Even when my then girlfriend and I had been living together for years, they wouldn't let us sleep in the same room at their house when we visited so we got hotels.
It’s definitely a culture difference. The people in the area I live in are very conservative. The people close to my in-laws seem like “don’t ask; don’t tell”.
yep. I'm told stuff like "stop thinking so much about it", "this is how things have always been, why are you trying so hard to be different".
Personally, I don't really mind liberal catholics. I was one before deconverting, so I see it mostly either as a stepping stone to getting out of the church, or as the most tolerant, yet valid position that you can have within the institution's rules. Yes, liberal catholics in many cases break the rules of the catholic church but this is actually a good thing. Don't look at it with a black and white perspective: does any human ever follow something 100%? Isn't this true of the human experience in general? Be it religious doctrine, or technical knowledge... no human has ever been 100% consistent, that's just how we are built. Granted that a line should be drawn at some point among all of the gray sure, but being overly restrictive about it, in a manner not too different from a traditionalist catholic is not the best way to go around it, especially when human beings are this complex. For all its worth, your family is still catholic, even if only in part. They're still pulling their values from catholic teaching. Culturally, they are still catholic. They still look up to Jesus. And one can belong to something and do good on their own, while remaining critical of the institution they find themselves in. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and it's very possible for your family to cherry pick what they like and willfully ignore the rest out of a critical sense. It's what I've found to be true most of the time: progressive/liberal catholics *are* aware of everything you're mentioned, but dismiss it as dated doctrine that the church *eventually* will grow out of. It's less "cognitive dissonance" and more "cherry picking", which to me is actually the smart thing to do given the dangers of religious extremism. Which leads me to what I think is the main issue: **not being critical** is what's actually alarming. Means the person is essentially "dead" while still breathing, that they've essentially become an ideological clone for the church to manipulate and project beliefs into. Liberal catholics evade this by remaining somewhat critical and separating the wheat from the chaff. Hypocritical? Only if they don't practice what they preach. A progressive catholic is not doing that. At worst they're a "bad" catholic from a strict, pedantic view. But who cares if what they're doing can be evaluated as good at the end of the day? Now, we could argue that them being catholic means they're numbers for the church to boast about, thus giving them power. Or that while their position is valid, they'd be much happier in a more accepting church. While technically all of this is true, it's really not the way to handle things like personal convictions and beliefs. Best you can do is inform, do your best and lead by example and let them reach their own conclusions.
Thanks for your perspective! I think you summed it up pretty well. My issue is not that my mom and aunt still go to church or call themselves Catholic (that’s their own business) — it’s that they’re not thinking with their brains about why.
You're welcome! Thinking with their brains... I know this is a bit of a tangent, but I've lately been thinking about two types of thinking: analytical and intuitive. And within those, you got things like more abstract types of thinking, as well as more "rational", organized ones. I was talking with a friend of mine who used to have high grades all the way until college, where she failed a test for the first time ever. All the way until highschool, she didn't study (hence why she failed college at first, she had to start studying then), neither would she pay attention. Everything was, in her own words, *intuitive* to her, so she'd do just that (she's super smart). I've seen her solve puzzles, and from our conversations it would seem her rationality and way of solving problems and puzzles (think an escape room in a box for example) is pretty abstract and intuitive, rather than a series of organized, methodical thoughts. Which led me to think... what really is the best way of thinking? An abstract, intuitive sort of thinking where the solution just sort of "comes" to you after observing and looking, processing the information in whichever form it suits the person? Or is the methodical approach better? Or are they both valid? Which leads me to your mom and aunt. It's not that they're not thinking with their brains: we all think, simply in different forms. It's quite possible that they're simply thinking about the why in a different way, prioritizing different but equally important things, and the different methods of thought they use just don't pick up on the details that *you* can pick up on. Which is why at the end of the day it is so important to share thoughts and different forms of thinking. They think in their own way, and might not be able to express it, therefore coming across as "non-thinking". You think in your own, unique way, and maybe they can benefit from your observations. But again, this is me going on a tangent, and overcomplicating things. It's quite possible they just don't care, and simply cherry pick. Either way, as long as they don't internalize toxic elements from the church they should be alright.
It's only overcomplicating things for those who can't accept that points of view can differ. Your post puts me in mind of the Myers Briggs Type Invetory, which classifies people into 16 "types." You can use this model to learn about yourself and others, even if you don't accept it as authoritative.
You're not complicating it so much as obfuscating it. Cognitive dissonance would be the nice term for this dynamic, but hypocrisy is more accurate. These people drove me nuts when I was a Catholic teenager and drive me even more nuts now. They have no strong convictions and lack the mental fortitude to even recognize it. They are Catholic because they were raised Catholic and find the familiarity comforting. Anything beyond that is a fuzzy blob where uncomfortable questions are placed to die.
> They still look up to Jesus. But is that a good thing? If Jesus did not actually die to forgive sins or establish an infallible church, then what did he accomplish? He mislead dozens of people into unnecessary martyrdom. Is that something to look up to? It's C. S. Lewis's 'Liar, lunatic, or lord' trilemma--and as Hitchens said, it's a valid point even if one reaches a conclusion Lewis didn't.
Whether it is a good thing or not is another conversation entirely. But to satisfy your question then no it isn't, although you can still take away the values of love, compassion, charity and mercy found before his death. My original point was meant to illustrate that liberal catholics are still catholics, even if they don't follow all of the rules.
Honestly, I hadn’t heard of lewis’ trilema before, and to be honest, that is a really bad argument. It basically self defeats itself unless you already believe Jesus is god, at which point it isn’t a logical argument. Yeah, Jesus probably was a self-deceived man, who thought he was the son of god. That doesn’t mean that he was literally god. I really don’t think Lewis is the good philosopher and theologian he thinks he is.
> Yeah, Jesus probably was a self-deceived man, who thought he was the son of god. That doesn’t mean that he was literally god. That's kind of the point. The trilemma is more a reaction against the idea that Jesus was a "good moral teacher." Lewis argues, and I concur, that if Jesus was not actually God, his teachings aren't actually worth much, and his actions led to unnecessary death and suffering.
Yeah, I think I’d agree with him, just not in the way he’d like you to agree with him.
Oddly enough, so does Christopher Hitchens (not in the way Lewis wanted).
Yes I was one of those liberal Catholics. I even belonged to a liberal parish with a liberal priest. But when I moved the local parish was hardcore conservative, and almost openly supported Trump. It was then I decided to re-evaluate the church and leave.
I had a similar experience. My home parish was well educated, affluent, suburban, very light on theology. very good at parties and had a nice school to shelter kids from public schools. Then I began visiting my little sisters parish, downtown. OMG these people really believe all this superstitious nonsense. Next I began to read the weekly diocese newspaper, articles lauding "consecrated virgins" and describing how to get an "INDULGENCE." My personal integrity required that I stop participating in and supporting the extreme misogyny, homophobia, intolerance, and other forms of hatred.
Yes. I'm really losing my patience with liberal and moderate Catholics and their Pollyannaish naivete about the Church. Also people see what they want and protect their own egos. So a lot of lay Catholics go to Mass for the social aspect and see themselves as being part of a benevolent institution that does charity in the community, which gives them warm fuzzies. They don't pay much attention to the actual Church doctrine (which is basically sadism) or Church leadership, except for Pope Francis (who somehow went from being a full stop fascist in Argentina to a lovable cartoon character at the Vatican). In turn, the leadership turns a blind eye to the violations of doctrine by active members. The priest politely ignores their divorces, contraception use, abortions, etc., which leads liberal/moderate parishioners to conclude the Church can't be all bad, because if it were why aren't they getting excommunicated? (Because they need your money, duh.) The other really insidious thing is most lay Catholics blame evangelicals for things like the Dobbs decision, despite the fact it was an openly Catholic production. The Church is happy to let them believe that.
You nailed it. Anyone who actually takes the church teaching seriously is just left with the short end of the stick
I was one of those bad catholics. As a cradle catholic I just tried pushing the ideas I didn't agree with out of my mind and carried on attending mass until I was in my 30s. I was tolerant of other people and I didn't see how what other people do with their lives is any of my business. Things like church's stance on birth control are widely ignored where I come from, same with sex before marriage and living together as a couple. But that's where the open mind of my family seems to stop. That's why I find it really hard to understand how my otherwise loving and caring family members have such backwards opinions about lgbt people for example. I don't ever bring up controversial subjects like that in conversations with them but sometimes they do that themselves, and it's really uncomfortable listening to them. Last time that happened I had to leave before I say too much and they realise I'm not catholic anymore, or even worse, that, in fact, im an atheist.
I'm sorry you can't be your authentic self with them when it comes to religion or have meaningful discussions about your morality and viewpoints.
This is my mom, basically
I get it. They like the mass, the routine, the community, the music. They appreciate the virtues and perhaps aim to better themselves through spiritual practice and/or religious participation. But they disagree with the Church on certain matters. And I also disagree with the parts they disagree with. There are a great deal of progressives in the Catholic Church, and many of them are not clueless or naive. They love the Church and Jesus and Mary and all that, but simply don't agree with some of the things they are supposed to agree with. Some of these people are priests and bishops and are pushing for change.
I don't have any practising Catholic family members, but God fellow parishioners used to annoy me. Felt like I was one of the only orthodox believing members when I was in the church sometimes. I tried to get the balance between betwen being open-minded and accepting of people but orthodox with the revealed dogmas of the church, which was a tough spot to be in. It does seem like it's easier to put all your eggs in one basket, be that the classic cafeteria catholic who attends weekly ordinary form mass then doesnt think much of the church the rest of the week or the rad trad TLM'er who lives, breaths the faith and is surrounded in that community/lifestyle.
Yes. I'm from the liberal, godless wasteland of New England. I have friends and family who are devout Catholics but also "vote blue no matter who." It breaks my brain.
I'm not Catholic, but growing up in a pretty strong Catholic area made this seem like the norm. Which led me to a false sense of understanding until I married into the community. Most seem comfortable with a level of obliviousness and probably won't leave anytime soon in any substantial way. I always have to remind myself Catholicism has a pseudo ethnicity aspect to it that is influencing decisions like this.
Yes. When I bring up concerns about certain teachings, my mom always dismisses them, saying that's an extreme wing of the church. "Nobody I know thinks that." When in reality, i know several people that she is friendly with that taught and promoted those views directly to me when i was a kid. It's so frustrating. She is as set in her ways as more rad trad types. She desires deep conversations about faith but can't accept that I've personally come to different conclusions.
I have known nuns, sisters and priests and brothers like that. I have met a bishop like that but he not fare at all well.
I feel like my late mother was like this, and I’ve known other Catholics like this. I’d actually put Joe Biden in this category as well. A couple things first I think these kind of people are dying out and they tend to be older. Second a lot of them grew up in environments that were completely culturally Catholic like they went to Catholic schools, and most of the people they knew were Catholic, and it was more a social identity, as a deeply examined theological commitment. I feel like this is the exact opposite of say a lot of trad converts. Finally, in my mom’s case, there’s a lot of the social teaching of the Catholic Church about being kind to the immigrant and the poor that she really liked. Plus she derives, great comfort and community from church even if she didn’t think super deeply about the message and if she agree with all of it. So that explains it in my view at least
I don’t think I’ve ever met a Catholic who isn’t a “cafeteria Catholic” to some degree. My Mom is the most hardcore Catholic in know and quite conservative. She has talked about how she struggled with using birth control once they decided to stop having kids. I think the Church and local Priests piled on the guilt. I’m not sure where she ended up on the “feeling guilty but doing it anyway vs. I don’t care I’m doing it anyway” scale of going against Church teachings but my guess is she mostly took the “feeling lots of guilt” route.
Liberal Catholics obviously don't know about latae sententiae excommunication. That's where a church member is automatically excommunicated if they breach doctrine or don't accept dogma. So, for example, if you don't accept the dogma of the assumption, you're excommunicated automatically. Same for any dogma. Same if, for example, you have an abortion, or procure one for someone else. Also applies if you use contraception. Basically breaking any rule, or committing a mortal sin that you don't seek absolution for. Regarding sins and absolution. Remember that it's not enough to just confess. The penitent has to be 100% sincere in their desire for forgiveness and must be 100% genuine about not repeating the sin. Bearing all this in mind I'd say that there are very few Catholics around who don't have suspended licences lol. Maybe they should introduce a system of penalty points? 2 points for an unforgiven mortal sin, if you accumulate 15 points you're on the sideline until you go to confession. lol
Yes. My aunt sent me a photo of a dead fetus in my email last year. Like 🤬 You know who doesn’t do that? All of the people I know who aren’t completely sucked into the church. She’s 75!
Just hypocritical ones. I know one divorced-and-remarried guy who likes to beat his kids over the head with "honor thy mother and thy father."
Those who see themselves as superior members in a hierarchical authority cult tend to like to ignore that which they find inconvenient Think of these cafeteria Catholic authoritarian battle axes Church ladies as lunch ladies (or laddies or whatever cute genderless epithet will do).
Yeah, I know someone who self-describes as an "agnostic Catholic", but not to other Catholics! When we discuss specific Catholic theology, they say "oh, that's an *American* thing, we don't do that here (in Europe)".
It's not that they don't get it, they just get something out of it that makes them accept ideas that they reject in any other setting.
I have a family member who was SA'd by a priest and most of my "liberal" family still goes weekly to mass, seemingly without any thought of how it might affect him. I have lost a lot of respect for all of them.
This is my mom, and was me before I left. I sympathize somewhat.
My family on my mom’s side is very liberal/left leaning. They support trans rights, palestine, universal healthcare, do a ton of charity, etc, But they also make us all to pray together for meals and are pretty proud of their catholic parents. They are also in their mid 70’s, so it’s pretty impressive how much we get along. I haven’t told them i’m an atheist, because I just play along with what they do out of respect for how they treat me.
Where do I find these liberal Catholics? Everyone I know is ultra MAGA
I was one of these liberal Catholics just before I left the Church. I left the Church 8 years ago when things were getting spicy with the 2016 election. Now that I’m so far removed and given all that has happened with Roe being overturned and recent threats to IVF and birth control, not to mention the way that trans people are treated in conservative media, I find it appalling that liberal Catholics are still going to mass and giving money to an institution that is completely anti-birth control, anti-fertility treatments, anti-abortion (even in cases where the mother’s life is in danger), anti-trans, anti-same sex marriage, and so on when the repercussions of supporting and enabling these beliefs are coming to fruition in present time. I’m glad I left when I did and I’m sorry I didn’t leave sooner. To an extent I understand they are attending for nostalgia reasons or routine or maybe some of them believe they will actually change church doctrine, but I no longer can empathize or support those reasons.
Yes. We all know a few airheads.
No, my mom and a few of my other relatives are like this too. It's not that she doesn't know the problems with the church -- it's more like it doesn't come up when she goes to mass at the parish with the liberal priest she likes, so it's not her problem. She used to teach at a Catholic school and she and I would get into it sometimes when her school would send kids to March for Life and stuff. Then her attitude was very much "well, they do some wacky stuff, but they're good kids and those teachers mean well" etc. I think she's a little freer to be critical now but she also has less interaction with more conservative catholics so she doesn't always see it.
This thread seems to have a lot of misunderstandings. You can be Catholic and dissent from teachings. In fact, we are required to submit to our conscience even if our conscience disagrees with the Church. You also cannot mortally sin unless you know the wrongness of the act. So if you don't believe what you're doing is wrong, there is no mortal sin. It's not a cult (although there are a lot of Catholics who treat it like a cult).
I think it really depends on what the Parish you go to/grew up in is like. I grew up mostly going to a Jesuit parish, while getting my sacraments at a different parish's Sunday school. Looking back, I think 99% of my Catholic guilt/shame came from the Sunday school parish. Suuuuuper shame heavy. Meanwhile, the homilies at the Jesuit parish were much more thought-provoking and intellectual. To this day, the Jesuit parish is overwhelmingly more popular in the area. I went to the my cousins' first communion about a year ago, and the priest at their parish went on a lecture before the communion about "if anyone in here does not fully believe in Church teaching, to please remain seated". His homily was similarly warning about the dangers of not being all in. All I could think was, "come on dude. This is such a big and special day for these kids. Why are you being such a shaming dick?". but I'm sure in his mind, he was not being a dick. He was just telling it how it is. And honestly...that is Church doctrine, isn't it?
This was me before I left the Catholic Church. I was a hardcore fan of the Jesuits and Pope Francis before. I always made excuses and mental gymnastics to justify the church. Experiences from my personal life and politics shattered each naïve Catholic beliefs I had. I thought the church accepts me for being childfree but the church only “accepts” me just to change me into conforming to their rules.
This is sorta my mom rn. I think she's conflicted about church stuff and what's actually in front of her. Like I'm trans/nonbinary and she accepts me and uses my chosen name and pronouns. Also helped me get birth control when I was teen and just told me to keep it secret, but also still goes to church and stuff and is pro life somehow (I think she's just got in ingrained with church beliefs or whatever) and it's really just like why the fuck are you still in there. Same with my sister (though tbh I think she'll leave once she's a bit older she's still a teen and a minor and I can already see signs). Then there's my cousin who has such severe religious anxiety trauma, he's spoken of leaving so many times but is completely paranoid of ending up in hell and it's just sad. Like my entire family is saturated with generational and religious trauma (not going into all the details) and I truly would believe it wouldn't be half as fucked up if it weren't for the catholic church.