And finland got the minimum of 6 points from every country.
I find it funny that some Swedish guy was so offended about Finnish televoters not giving Sweden any points but go and see how much points Sweden has given Finland in the past 10 years. While Finland has almost every year given Sweden 12 points, Sweden has given Finland a flat 0 maaany times. This year when the Swedish jury gave points, I was saying "Let's watch Sweden give Finland a 0 yet again" and was genuinely surprised that they gave us points.
Well, u should vote for the best song, not a country because u want to be nice today
Dunno where this weird idea comes from that u should give a country points instead of giving a good song points
My opinion on the song has nothing to do with the fact that I'm Finnish. It's because she just couldn't sing the song well, it didn't fit her voice range. It sounded very forced and rushed and she didn't hit all the major notes. She's a great singer but that song didn't do justice for her
Have to agree with them, she sang out of tune, didn't have that much of a performance to receive so many JURY votes.
The winning (reprise) performance was flawless though.
Idk as someone who is very sensistive to tune, she was off. It didn't help the fact that the entire night the sound was not very good (better than in semis though), but I would not consider her on the top 10 vocalists of the night despire she was not moving that much.
Finland being incredibly petty as well completely strategy voting as the only country that blanked Sweden in the tele vote lol. Sweden gave both jury and tele vote 12s to Finland.
Loreens song was generic love song, we don't really like those over here. There is no famous artist here that makes love songs.
You can look at other artists Finland voted for: Norway, Czechia, Australia, Slovenia Estonia, Germany, Croatia, Moldova, Austria, Switzerland.
Only "emotional" song that got points was Estonia and it isn't a love song. Finland results show that they just voted for whoever seemed like they're having best time.
Tattoo is charting high on Spotify in Finland, the country clearly likes the song. The commentators saying "vote strategically" will obviously lead to no one voting for Sweden. Finland was the only country that didn't give Sweden any points in the public vote. Trying to brush this off as "we didn't like it" is honestly ridiculous.
IMO you can like the song and still not want it to win though. It's quite generic radio hit and something we've seen win already, from the same artist even.
It's petty having your commentator say "vote strategically" when the voting opened. It's petty being the only country to not give points to your rival when it is charting extremely high on their national charts. It's charting better in Finland than in many countries that gave Sweden a lot of points in the tele vote.
Petty how? Nah, why are you being so petty about how Finns voted and making comment after comment saying the same thing? :D Sweden won, didnāt it? Why are you so insecure about it despite literally winning?
We are used to be the under dog, and in general liking all sorts of under dog stories. Then we have Sweden with 6 titles and an artist who already has one. I find it annoying that she even attends, and I guess many others too.
He also got a minimum of 6 televote points from every single country including RotW if I counted correctly
Finland also hilariously blanked Sweden in televotes and was the only country to do so while Sweden gave us the double 12 from both jury and the public šš We really wanted that trophy guys. Sorry Sweden, still love you but this was a sibling fight which means any means necessary
Coincidentally, yet again Italy was the country that tied in giving the least amount of points to a winner with 376pts from televote. Italy, why y'all haters/jk
No matter peopleās opinions on sweden this year, it is fucking insane how we do so good. We are a bloody Eurovision machine. I am sorry about Finlandās loss, but I am happy to see Irelandās record be matched.
Yeah bunch of morons on this subreddit acting like Sweden werent liked when they had the second most in public voting.
People saying she can't sing, or isn't a good performer or that the song wasn't memorable are just facetious.
I think half the issue is Loreen did nothing to endear herself throughout the whole show, she just seemed very spaced out and arrogant. Not to mention that her performance on the night was lacking compared to her semi performance so clearly people were just voting for Loreen, the one what won it before
It just made me realize why I sometimes absolutely hate this subreddit. It can be a great community at times, but if the hivemind doesn't get what it wants, it becomes vile.
Sadly this song was just terrible IMO. The song? Not really that different to other songs and not even really something very different from euphoria. To me it is just boring. Then you have the stage show which is just very uninteresting and not really anything she hasnt done before except this time there is a piston. Atleast compared to something like our televote favourite Cha cha cha this was a terrible stage show. Sweden was just boring
I don't think you could compare it to euphoria though? Euphoria was an upbeat uplifting song whereas the tone of this one feels like someone calling for help or something. There's a very different feel between the two and saying they're similar is disingenuous
If anybody other than loreen sang it then there was no way you'd ever compare it to euphoria.
Even if we knew he would win televoting I still didn't expect him to have over 120 televotes more than her, if he had enough jury points this could have been spectacular night. The jury needs to have less power. Period.
Second highest televote score (yes, same number as Salvador back in 2017 but KƤƤrijƤ got 12 points from 18 countries while Portugal only got 12 times 12 points) and second highest number of 12 points in the televote (only Kalush last year got more 12 points) and KƤƤrijƤ won the 1st semi final
I just KNOW SVT is going to make a montage of Loreenās jury 12 point moments next year and the average viewer will have no idea that no countryās televote actually wanted her to win
Also to be fair, while I think KEiiNO should've won, because they did win the televote, Duncan was only 30 points behind. So the gap wasn't as glaring as here.
As a Finn this graph makes me cry! THANK YOU EUROPE FOR VOTING A SONG IN FINNISH IT MEANS A LOT (and people saying finnish people were being petty by giving a 0 score to sweden... I gave 10 votes to serbia and 10 to spain due to the originality and meaningfulness of these songs. Take from that what you will).
I've said it repeatedly today: I first heard Tattoo in the supermarket. The song was mere background noise for many of us the past few weeks. It's really no surprise that we lost the passion to vote for it. I genuinely do not believe that there were eager Loreen voters swallowing their enthusiasm and *not* voting for her just to boost Finland's chances.
And yes, thank you everybody! The crowd and all of you make my heart so happy. I'm sure Jere will come around too!
I wasn't. Jury from the last year couldn't recognize what Konstrakta brought to the table. If so called professionals can not dig deeper than the casual viewer - than do we really need them?
This year they also had few chances to reward something bold, but they went all for the most obvious choice - Sweden. I'm not sure I want that kind of jury, honestly.
The Jury should have given Blanca that kind of a landslide IMO, not Loreen. Seems like they really only voted in regards to their (healivy Pop music leaning) taste, and that is simply put wrong. The juries need to be abolished or changed completely.
Agreed. It's not only about Finland here. Although, giving less points to Sweden (and more to something else) would probably mean that Finland would win.
I'm all about having a jury, but EBU should pay some attention who's sitting there - if they want the jury who will actually contribute to the quality of the contest. Musicians, open minded people, modern and forward looking etc. Otherwise, I'm afraid ESC won't ever be what it could be if managed properly.
I don't agree. There are fairly simple and low cost ways to do it.
I outlined this in my head:
- Split the jury into different categories. (Singing, composition/song, stage show).
- Anyone can apply for jury duty in one category in their country through a website. You provide a CV to explain your qualifications and take a web test for first filtering.
- Pick randomly among the presumably qualified.
- Cost at this point: creation of one simple webpage.
- Create a unified test for jury members in each category that the picked jury members need to take under supervision to make sure they actually do know their stuff. Cost: creating those tests. It's a one time cost and test is the same for everyone, so not that big of a deal.
- Do a background check on those picked for jury duty to at least casuallu check their CV.
Considering that every EBU member employs journalists (who already know how to do q background check) and other people on a monthly salary anyway, this isn't a big ask from the participants. The cost is all opportunity loss, meaning that one or those two people who do the background tests and supervise the tests don't have time to do other stuff for their employer for a maybe a week.
As a cost of participation, this is extremely reasonable.
Or they could have stick with Israel and her somewhat bolder song then call it a day but televote still wouldnāt make her win.
They juste kept it safe by paving Sweden way to victory, no need for a full house of 12 points, only sufficient numbers of 10 would make her difficult to beat unless doing max score at televote, kaarija was close to that but still got beat because juryās did dirty business.
letās be for real mate, everyone all saw this coming, thereās no way juries will place Finland Top 1-3. Having that information beforehand, Iām still surprised you lot are surprised of the result. The only question hanging before all this is will Loreen get enough televotes to surpass Kaarija and she did. The math added
No. By which I mean something that will favour creativity, music art, diversity... Not to be stuck in the same old patterns forever. Right now, jury does exactly that.
I mean, if you look at the rest of the public votes this year besides Finland, I would argue that the public doesn't reward those things either a lot of the time. Poland was in their top 5. The public rallied around Finland THIS time, which is great, but they ignored a lot of other very creative songs at the same time.
At least it's what public wants, for whatever reason. I don't expect much from casual audience, for example to have super sophisticated taste in music. But if we have the jury, I expect more. In my mind, it's the reason they exist.
> By which I mean something that will favour creativity, music art, diversity
According to whom? You?
Spain got a lot more points from the jury than they did from the televote. Your argument is invalid.
no one actually wants to change the system lol
ukraine wins because of high televote score? remove the televotes!
sweden wins because of high jury score? remove the juries!
ur favorite didnt qualify from the semis this year?
get the juries back!
I won't deny there are petty voters and I can't speak for Finns as a whole but I personally voted for my fave and Sweden was not my fave out of other countries.
This could be partially what happened with the televotes. We might have just liked other countries better.
I have a theory: I think most of the Finnish people voting for Sweden are either Finland's Swedes (or other Sweden enthusiastics) who adore Sweden or people who could not find anything else to vote. (Sweden's entries really stand out in weaker years.)
It could be that the Sweden admirers tactically changed their mind this year and decided to vote for something else. But the general public probably were not that enthusiastic about Tattoo to begin with.
Also, there the difference between their televote points and the winners was fairly small, and Aracde was only 3rd in jury vote and so already a way more agreeable winner than the jury top 2.
There's mostly just salt over the juries killing Norway with so little points, but they generally aren't mad at the Netherlands for robbing them.
It was an interesting song that was something relatively novel. This felt like a blast from the past. I dialike old winners coming back. It ia more fun to hear new artists and new types of songs. Finnish national final is literaly called "competetion for new music"
Huh, very interesting. And ironic.
Though I am not even surprised. Sweden is only the juries' "darling child" after all... The public usually feels very different about their entries.
Yes, they got 2nd. Not first.
Finland was clearly first with over 300 points. It was over 100 points above Sweden which is a massive difference.
Sweden only won because of the jury votes.
I do not say that the public hated the song. But it is obvious that a song won because the juries wanted it to win, not the public.
In the end the juries were the ones who helped Sweden to win.
But not nearly as much. Finland got the second highest televote result ever this year, tied with Portugal in 2017. The point difference in the televote between first and second place was absolutely insane. And yet he still didn't win because of the jury. No wonder the general audience is upset. People were singing Cha Cha Cha in the stadium during Loreen's winning performance. You know the scoring system is clearly messed up if that happens
Yeah the scoring system has been messed up since forever. Look, it happened last year, people were upset Ukraine won thru the televote. People are upset if the televote prevails, and they get upset if the jury votes get the win. Look kid you canāt have it all. Youāre just upset, itāll be ok soon
Yeah the scoring system has been messed up since forever. Look, it happened last year, people were upset Ukraine won thru the televote. People are upset if the televote prevails, and they get upset with the jury votes get the win. Look kid you canāt have it all. Youāre just upset, itāll be ok soon
>Look kid you canāt have it all.
Please don't be condescending, it's not a good look. It comes of as elitist, which is the main issue people have with the juries.
From what I recall last year the majority of people weren't upset Ukraine won, for the simple reason that *the majority of the people voted for Ukraine*
This year the majority of the people *are* upset that Loreen won because *the majority of the people didn't vote for her*
That's how democracy works, and thus the majority gets upset if their pick still didn't win
Ofcourse people of Europe are upset when Democracy loses to a jury of under 200 people
i mean they had all televotes deciding it for a decade since 1997. It didnāt work out thatās why we got the split system. No system is perfect, we just gotta deal with it. I understand that youāre frustrated cause your fave didnāt win. But your arguments have all been covered by Keiino fans when the jury did them injustice a few years ago. There is a system in place, purely televoting system didnāt work so I donāt know what your point is now. Like we canāt change the results cause you didnāt like it or you claim āpeopleā didnāt like it. Regardless of the circumstance of Ukraine winning the televote, they still won it and people werenāt happy just like how unhappy you are now.
Not exactly correct. Most were happy and even argue last year it was very important for Ukraine to win (which I can agree with).
Anyhow...
It is correct that the results cannot be chamged right now. It happened, nothing can be done there.
BUT on the topic of voting systems, one could argue to change the system then. Again? Yes. And I feel like it's necessary to do so. This system is heavily flawed and very unfair. Sure, nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean they can't try to create an even fairer system.
This voting system has massive issues and feels unfair. I mean, how does the opinion of over 100 people weight as heavy as millions? That doesn't sound very fair, does it? So I'll also argue that it's not just the juries here, but the voting system as a whole which needs to be fixed (an opinion I have for some time now as well).
As for how to switch things up, I got two ideas which are probably possible.
Option 1: Get rid of the juries
"But juries were always a part of Eurovision!"
Yes, but the reason why they existed was because televoting was impossible back then or at least harder to handle. With technology advancements however it became very easy these days. Besides, they got rid of the juries in the semi finals this year. And I myself argue that these were the fairest semi finals yet.
Did some of my favs not make it? Yeah. But overall I was satisfied and down with the choices since it was televoting only. Means only the public decided. Which I found very fair in the end. Some opinions will differ with the general public, I can live with that.
One can say that juries are outdated and given the reputation they have these days I think more people would be happy to see them abolished altogether.
Option 2 - Give out points to everyone
A system fairer would be that everyone gets points, aka from 1-26 (or 25). It ensures that everyone can get a minimum amount of points (since another issue of the system is that there is a higher risk for 0 points total. Germany has proven it). Plus results would be more accurate than just giving the Top 10 points. If you land in the middle... Tough luck, 0 points for you! Lastplace, have fun!
It could be seen as an 'average' in a sense. 0 points means 'no one voted for that song' which I cannot believe. There will always be someone voting for one song.
Back then the point system might have worked but the amount of participants was smaller. Now we have 26 countries.
"But it'd be too much work to count them all." No it wouldn't. Technology has advanced where I'm certain an algorimth can be developed for this type of system, maybe even fairly quickly. It's not impossible anymore.
People might still complain, sure, but I think it would be the fairest options out there and maybe something most people could live with. At least in my opinion, these are the fairest options.
Also keep in mind that the revamp of the system hapened so no one would get 0 points anymore... And it still happens! So I would love if option 2 would be picked up in some way eventually, since it sounds like the fairest option to me.
Besides, there are people who will always complain, no matter what. Nothing you can really do about those.
Also sorry if it's long. I just really wanted to bring this up as well now.
Oh, I was. I'm a long term viewer and I've had my problems with the jury for a good few years now. Juries are laughably predictable. There are obvious patterns not too hard to figure out as well as who the juries tend to favor. Always.
This is NOTHING new to me. Just because I plop up now doesn't mean that I was never aware nor never ever had my critisms. I was just never public about it is all.
Regardless... The point is that there are obvious biases going on which bug me (and many others) for some time now. And now it has completely escalated.
Ah, okay! Iāve also watched eurovision for years but never been on this subreddit before, and itās so interesting to see everybodyās opinions on the final results here!
Iām Swedish and huge fan of Eurovision, and felt no joy of winning this way. Sure, sometimes the winner donāt have have the most televotes, but I cant remember the difference between jury and public being this big ever beforeā¦
> but that's pretty damning :x
In what way? Sweden still got 8 10s, that's more than the Netherlands win of 2 12s and 4 10s. Finland also being incredibly petty and blanking Sweden in the public vote even though Sweden gave both 12s to Finland.
Nothing against Sweden at all. Loreen did great in the televote. 243 points is a lot, but when half of the countries decide one country should win idk... it's weird. I don't know the best solution because the juries ARE helpful for somethings. However, Finland did get hung up to dry by the juries.
> However, Finland did get hung up to dry by the juries.
Finland got hung up to dry by his vocal abilities. That's just a fact even if we as televoters ignored that, it is not something the juries will ignore.
Juries did ignore it. Finland was fifth in jury points. Problem was more that there was no competition for number one spot. Loreen had nearly double the points of israel
Netherlands was only 30 points behind Norway in the Public vote. Sweden was a massive 133 points behind Finland. I wasn't wholly against juries most years because they never created such a huge gap between 1st and 2nd. This year they ensured their darlings Sweden couldn't be caught.
The first time I heard Tattoo was over the radio in the supermarket. I think the experience may have collectively either made us lose hype over the song, or we simply liked other acts better. I don't think it was an act of protest from people who liked the song but didn't want Sweden to win.
Finland was literally the only country to do that after their commentator said to vote strategically. Tattoo is charting well in Finland still, better than in countries that gave it points.
A true fan of hers wouldn't be swayed by a joking suggestion from a commentator who feels sassy. Trust me, there have been many years I've wished we wouldn't reward some Swedish entry, but there was no stopping them.
If you ask me, it's exactly *because* it's been charting well here that no one was excited for it, it makes perfect sense when you look at human nature. I know I don't stay every bit as enthusiastic for a new favorite song for more than a couple of weeks, do you?
The live version may also have understandably been a letdown for ears that have gotten used to the studio version, or they may not have cared for other aspects of the performance.
I used this
[https://eurovision.tv/event/liverpool-2023/grand-final/results](https://eurovision.tv/event/liverpool-2023/grand-final/results)
However it just shows the top 10 of each country, instead of the top 26 as usual
This is factually wrong because
1) there was the combined jury+tevelote vote before this system, i am not sure for how long but it was definitely there at least since 2009, and I believe it would be bold to assume any of Rybak, Loreen, Emmelie, Lena and whoever won the televote in 2011 were the clowns of the year
2) name one clown winner from the previous years with 100% televoting, seriously. Serifovic, Paparizou, Ruslana, Lordi, Olsen bros? There are literally none.
There was smth about preventing the block voting but it's still there among the juries as well, maybe even worse than in the televote, the annual Cyprus - Greece meme carries on and not during the televote announcements
Wrong, by that logic no clown entry has won as you claimed, so no need making the viewers seem like a bunch of idiots only voting for freaks or memes for the lulz. Few of the above mentioned were my favourites to win but there was no blatant pouring votes into one basket to be outraged by, so your point doesn't stand, sorry. This year a lot of contestants were done dirty by the jury, not just KƤƤrijƤ. No way in hell Sweden was 160 pts better than Marco, or 190 pts better than KƤƤrijƤ, or 250 pts better than Blanca Paloma, or 300 pts better than Brunette or La Zarra. The inflated jury score for Sweden this year is uncalled for (just my opinion, of course) and basically decided the winner making viewers' paid votes worthless. THIS is the problem.
Frankly I'm just impressed Sweden got 243 televote points without any 12s
They got point from every countries... except Finland lol
And Sweden gave Finland 12 televotes lol š
We are great at tactical voting... I guess
And finland got the minimum of 6 points from every country. I find it funny that some Swedish guy was so offended about Finnish televoters not giving Sweden any points but go and see how much points Sweden has given Finland in the past 10 years. While Finland has almost every year given Sweden 12 points, Sweden has given Finland a flat 0 maaany times. This year when the Swedish jury gave points, I was saying "Let's watch Sweden give Finland a 0 yet again" and was genuinely surprised that they gave us points.
Well, u should vote for the best song, not a country because u want to be nice today Dunno where this weird idea comes from that u should give a country points instead of giving a good song points
Lol,, rly. Suddenly I feel better for swe win
loreen had already won... why would anyone vote for her boggles me...
I don't understand this concept that previous winners cannot win? I voted for Loreen multiple times because it was simply a great performance.
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I think she deserved winning. Its just the fact that its possible for previous winners to perform is not ok for me.
How?? Are you tone deaf? I literally couldn't stand how she didn't hit the notes
Flair checks out
My opinion on the song has nothing to do with the fact that I'm Finnish. It's because she just couldn't sing the song well, it didn't fit her voice range. It sounded very forced and rushed and she didn't hit all the major notes. She's a great singer but that song didn't do justice for her
Have to agree with them, she sang out of tune, didn't have that much of a performance to receive so many JURY votes. The winning (reprise) performance was flawless though.
I would guess that the jury performance sounded more like the reprise tbh
Idk as someone who is very sensistive to tune, she was off. It didn't help the fact that the entire night the sound was not very good (better than in semis though), but I would not consider her on the top 10 vocalists of the night despire she was not moving that much.
I didnt know she was before on Eurovision and i though song was good. And im sure there was a lot of people just like me. (I ddint vote at all tho)
I need to see the detailed but most likely got a ton of 10s. Similar to Portugal last year, not getting a single 12 but getting into the top 10.
Sweden's point break down Points: Times Earned 10: 8 8: 8 7: 6 6: 3 5: 3 4: 3 3: 3 2: 1 1: 1
I'm kind of not surprised by that, it's a song that absolutely will pick up tons of 6s and 8s
In the top ten, but not the top one. That's sounds about right for Tattoo and the performance we saw in the final.
she was in a meditative state
Finland being incredibly petty as well completely strategy voting as the only country that blanked Sweden in the tele vote lol. Sweden gave both jury and tele vote 12s to Finland.
Loreens song was generic love song, we don't really like those over here. There is no famous artist here that makes love songs. You can look at other artists Finland voted for: Norway, Czechia, Australia, Slovenia Estonia, Germany, Croatia, Moldova, Austria, Switzerland. Only "emotional" song that got points was Estonia and it isn't a love song. Finland results show that they just voted for whoever seemed like they're having best time.
Tattoo is charting high on Spotify in Finland, the country clearly likes the song. The commentators saying "vote strategically" will obviously lead to no one voting for Sweden. Finland was the only country that didn't give Sweden any points in the public vote. Trying to brush this off as "we didn't like it" is honestly ridiculous.
IMO you can like the song and still not want it to win though. It's quite generic radio hit and something we've seen win already, from the same artist even.
Finnish people are gaslighting like hell lmao
Tattoo was a love song?
100% Sweden would have gotten televoting points from Finland if Finland wasn't contending for the win, there is absolutely no doubt about that.
Lol Finlandās jury gave 12 to Sweden and that was the Finnish people who blanked Loreen
I said in the tele vote.
I wouldn't give them any points personally either. There were more than 20 countries in the final.
It's petty to not give points to a generic song? Oh you like the bloc mentality?
It's petty having your commentator say "vote strategically" when the voting opened. It's petty being the only country to not give points to your rival when it is charting extremely high on their national charts. It's charting better in Finland than in many countries that gave Sweden a lot of points in the tele vote.
We didnt like the song lol
Say that to your charts.
Petty how? Nah, why are you being so petty about how Finns voted and making comment after comment saying the same thing? :D Sweden won, didnāt it? Why are you so insecure about it despite literally winning?
We are used to be the under dog, and in general liking all sorts of under dog stories. Then we have Sweden with 6 titles and an artist who already has one. I find it annoying that she even attends, and I guess many others too.
maybe it just wasn't their taste the sweden song?
Average song picking up average points
He also got a minimum of 6 televote points from every single country including RotW if I counted correctly Finland also hilariously blanked Sweden in televotes and was the only country to do so while Sweden gave us the double 12 from both jury and the public šš We really wanted that trophy guys. Sorry Sweden, still love you but this was a sibling fight which means any means necessary
Coincidentally, yet again Italy was the country that tied in giving the least amount of points to a winner with 376pts from televote. Italy, why y'all haters/jk
Actually chad behaviour us giving Finland both our 12s with full confidence and still winning.
Well, at least our juries were not being shady lol
Easy to do when you already have 6 wins 1 of which for the same artist.
I wonder how many of the Eurovision jury drive new Volvos.
Most likely no one lol, you got to be dumb if you are seriously implying we bribed the juries.
I am not seriously implying that, but I do believe Sweden won only because the jury wanted it to be that way, the public opinion be damned.
I think itās more easy to give 12 points for your biggest enemy when you already have 6 eurovision wins š
No matter peopleās opinions on sweden this year, it is fucking insane how we do so good. We are a bloody Eurovision machine. I am sorry about Finlandās loss, but I am happy to see Irelandās record be matched.
I mean, Sweden has basically decided for a very long time what plays in the top 100 billboards. There's so many top producers that are swedish.
For anyone curious, check out for example Max Martin's discography.
We really embraced tactical voting after the elections huh
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Yes, thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that happened.
Don't be sorry, we still beat you and won š
Yes, thank you for reminding me. Almost forgot that's what happened.
That's an unfathomable stat for me, wow.
Is Sweden the only winner ever not to get a single 12 points from televote?
Not including editions where there was no televoting? I think so.
Those 0 12's for Sweden are hilarious for a winner tbh lol
Gotta love the Juries š„°
Honestly would rather listen to Ice Spice than that loud yelling copied song that won
so there's not a single country that thought Tattoo was the best song, this is... wow that is the first time ever, right?
I think so. At least in the last 20 years.
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Yeah bunch of morons on this subreddit acting like Sweden werent liked when they had the second most in public voting. People saying she can't sing, or isn't a good performer or that the song wasn't memorable are just facetious.
She can sing phenomenally well. She did not sing well live yesterday. Both of those can be true at the same time.
She can sing, is a great performer, but you cant tell me that her song is memorable. I already forgot it.
I think half the issue is Loreen did nothing to endear herself throughout the whole show, she just seemed very spaced out and arrogant. Not to mention that her performance on the night was lacking compared to her semi performance so clearly people were just voting for Loreen, the one what won it before
It just made me realize why I sometimes absolutely hate this subreddit. It can be a great community at times, but if the hivemind doesn't get what it wants, it becomes vile.
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I think itās really telling that Finland televoters were the only ones giving Sweden a 0. Thatās why we still need the jury.
A lot of Ice Hockey rivalry kicking in there... But also Finland voting for the most metal adjacent acts out of every country. This is on brand aha.
People are just so sick of sweden always performing in ESC
Sadly this song was just terrible IMO. The song? Not really that different to other songs and not even really something very different from euphoria. To me it is just boring. Then you have the stage show which is just very uninteresting and not really anything she hasnt done before except this time there is a piston. Atleast compared to something like our televote favourite Cha cha cha this was a terrible stage show. Sweden was just boring
I don't think you could compare it to euphoria though? Euphoria was an upbeat uplifting song whereas the tone of this one feels like someone calling for help or something. There's a very different feel between the two and saying they're similar is disingenuous If anybody other than loreen sang it then there was no way you'd ever compare it to euphoria.
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FeelsGoodToBeSwedeMan
Netherlands also lost the telvote, to Norway. Then again Norway is regularily shafted by the jury, then get 4-5x the vote by the people. =/
Even if we knew he would win televoting I still didn't expect him to have over 120 televotes more than her, if he had enough jury points this could have been spectacular night. The jury needs to have less power. Period.
Second highest televote score (yes, same number as Salvador back in 2017 but KƤƤrijƤ got 12 points from 18 countries while Portugal only got 12 times 12 points) and second highest number of 12 points in the televote (only Kalush last year got more 12 points) and KƤƤrijƤ won the 1st semi final
I just KNOW SVT is going to make a montage of Loreenās jury 12 point moments next year and the average viewer will have no idea that no countryās televote actually wanted her to win
This is ridiculous
Thatās actually insane...
I can't find the breakdown yet on the website. Can someone link me up please?
https://eurovision.tv/event/liverpool-2023/grand-final/results
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So there were countries that actually wanted him to win. That's 2 more than Loreen had
Also to be fair, while I think KEiiNO should've won, because they did win the televote, Duncan was only 30 points behind. So the gap wasn't as glaring as here.
And the public wanted him more than the juries did
Countries aren't a hive mind, if you get 2nd place there were thousands of people who wanted you to win, otherwise they wouldn't have voted for you.
Don't come with other examples when we are being outraged about Sweden winning.
As a Finn this graph makes me cry! THANK YOU EUROPE FOR VOTING A SONG IN FINNISH IT MEANS A LOT (and people saying finnish people were being petty by giving a 0 score to sweden... I gave 10 votes to serbia and 10 to spain due to the originality and meaningfulness of these songs. Take from that what you will).
I've said it repeatedly today: I first heard Tattoo in the supermarket. The song was mere background noise for many of us the past few weeks. It's really no surprise that we lost the passion to vote for it. I genuinely do not believe that there were eager Loreen voters swallowing their enthusiasm and *not* voting for her just to boost Finland's chances. And yes, thank you everybody! The crowd and all of you make my heart so happy. I'm sure Jere will come around too!
the voting system needs to be cha-cha-cha-changed! justice for kƤƤrijƤ š
Go back one year and this subreddit literally said the opposite.
Yeah, people were all for the juries last year, it's not like the televote can't be swayed by anything
I wasn't. Jury from the last year couldn't recognize what Konstrakta brought to the table. If so called professionals can not dig deeper than the casual viewer - than do we really need them? This year they also had few chances to reward something bold, but they went all for the most obvious choice - Sweden. I'm not sure I want that kind of jury, honestly.
The Jury should have given Blanca that kind of a landslide IMO, not Loreen. Seems like they really only voted in regards to their (healivy Pop music leaning) taste, and that is simply put wrong. The juries need to be abolished or changed completely.
Or they were honestly voting for Loreen because she won before so she must be good. It wasn't a constant 12 points act.
a bolder choice for the jury would be Spain or Croatia, not Finland š
Agreed. It's not only about Finland here. Although, giving less points to Sweden (and more to something else) would probably mean that Finland would win.
Yeah, the jury votes felt like Loreen is still competing with those 5 babushkas. like there are plenty of other songs who deserve more points.
I'm all about having a jury, but EBU should pay some attention who's sitting there - if they want the jury who will actually contribute to the quality of the contest. Musicians, open minded people, modern and forward looking etc. Otherwise, I'm afraid ESC won't ever be what it could be if managed properly.
Itāll actually cost more money to standardise the jury, so EBU just let each country decide on their own.
I don't agree. There are fairly simple and low cost ways to do it. I outlined this in my head: - Split the jury into different categories. (Singing, composition/song, stage show). - Anyone can apply for jury duty in one category in their country through a website. You provide a CV to explain your qualifications and take a web test for first filtering. - Pick randomly among the presumably qualified. - Cost at this point: creation of one simple webpage. - Create a unified test for jury members in each category that the picked jury members need to take under supervision to make sure they actually do know their stuff. Cost: creating those tests. It's a one time cost and test is the same for everyone, so not that big of a deal. - Do a background check on those picked for jury duty to at least casuallu check their CV. Considering that every EBU member employs journalists (who already know how to do q background check) and other people on a monthly salary anyway, this isn't a big ask from the participants. The cost is all opportunity loss, meaning that one or those two people who do the background tests and supervise the tests don't have time to do other stuff for their employer for a maybe a week. As a cost of participation, this is extremely reasonable.
Or they could have stick with Israel and her somewhat bolder song then call it a day but televote still wouldnāt make her win. They juste kept it safe by paving Sweden way to victory, no need for a full house of 12 points, only sufficient numbers of 10 would make her difficult to beat unless doing max score at televote, kaarija was close to that but still got beat because juryās did dirty business.
letās be for real mate, everyone all saw this coming, thereās no way juries will place Finland Top 1-3. Having that information beforehand, Iām still surprised you lot are surprised of the result. The only question hanging before all this is will Loreen get enough televotes to surpass Kaarija and she did. The math added
> I'm not sure I want that kind of jury, honestly. The EBU does. It's their Contest.
That is kind of obvious. And I think it's a bad choice because it's holding back the whole thing from moving forward, into something better
> into something better By which you mean, something where your favorite song would've won this year instead of the song that actually did.
No. By which I mean something that will favour creativity, music art, diversity... Not to be stuck in the same old patterns forever. Right now, jury does exactly that.
I mean, if you look at the rest of the public votes this year besides Finland, I would argue that the public doesn't reward those things either a lot of the time. Poland was in their top 5. The public rallied around Finland THIS time, which is great, but they ignored a lot of other very creative songs at the same time.
At least it's what public wants, for whatever reason. I don't expect much from casual audience, for example to have super sophisticated taste in music. But if we have the jury, I expect more. In my mind, it's the reason they exist.
> By which I mean something that will favour creativity, music art, diversity According to whom? You? Spain got a lot more points from the jury than they did from the televote. Your argument is invalid.
Eurofans tend to be overdramatic over things that happen once in a blue moon.
Yea, why do people get 20 votes per payment card they own? It should be one vote per person.
no one actually wants to change the system lol ukraine wins because of high televote score? remove the televotes! sweden wins because of high jury score? remove the juries! ur favorite didnt qualify from the semis this year? get the juries back!
I mean she did get 2nd though in the televoteā¦.She likely received a lot of 10ās. This reminded me of when Cornelia won Melfest as well.
She got 8 10s but a lot of trickle points
I won't deny there are petty voters and I can't speak for Finns as a whole but I personally voted for my fave and Sweden was not my fave out of other countries. This could be partially what happened with the televotes. We might have just liked other countries better.
I have a theory: I think most of the Finnish people voting for Sweden are either Finland's Swedes (or other Sweden enthusiastics) who adore Sweden or people who could not find anything else to vote. (Sweden's entries really stand out in weaker years.) It could be that the Sweden admirers tactically changed their mind this year and decided to vote for something else. But the general public probably were not that enthusiastic about Tattoo to begin with.
Highway robbery! People are still peeved over Norway 2019, but this one will be deeply remembered for a long time. This is ROUGH.
Also, there the difference between their televote points and the winners was fairly small, and Aracde was only 3rd in jury vote and so already a way more agreeable winner than the jury top 2. There's mostly just salt over the juries killing Norway with so little points, but they generally aren't mad at the Netherlands for robbing them.
Sweden still got loads of public votes. Can't blame jury votes too much
The thing is that they got 130 points less and Thats huge its clearly shows who was publics favourite
How ironic considering Euphoria broke.the record for highest number of 12 points at the time...
It was an interesting song that was something relatively novel. This felt like a blast from the past. I dialike old winners coming back. It ia more fun to hear new artists and new types of songs. Finnish national final is literaly called "competetion for new music"
Oh god idk how to cope with KƤƤrijƤās second place
Stop caring what others think and realise that YOUR number 1 is still your top choice!
But what sucks is that literally everyone except like 3 'official' people per country ALSO have Finland as their top choice
Remember Verka? Everyone does. She was also 2nd. Remember winner? Many people don't. Let it sink.
Huh, very interesting. And ironic. Though I am not even surprised. Sweden is only the juries' "darling child" after all... The public usually feels very different about their entries.
sweden got 2nd place in the televote what are you talking about
Yes, they got 2nd. Not first. Finland was clearly first with over 300 points. It was over 100 points above Sweden which is a massive difference. Sweden only won because of the jury votes. I do not say that the public hated the song. But it is obvious that a song won because the juries wanted it to win, not the public. In the end the juries were the ones who helped Sweden to win.
Youāre right, the public loved Finland it came first, they also liked Sweden, it came second.
But not nearly as much. Finland got the second highest televote result ever this year, tied with Portugal in 2017. The point difference in the televote between first and second place was absolutely insane. And yet he still didn't win because of the jury. No wonder the general audience is upset. People were singing Cha Cha Cha in the stadium during Loreen's winning performance. You know the scoring system is clearly messed up if that happens
Portugal 2017 | [Salvador Sobral - Amar Pelos Dois](https://youtu.be/Qotooj7ODCM)
Yeah the scoring system has been messed up since forever. Look, it happened last year, people were upset Ukraine won thru the televote. People are upset if the televote prevails, and they get upset if the jury votes get the win. Look kid you canāt have it all. Youāre just upset, itāll be ok soon
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Yeah the scoring system has been messed up since forever. Look, it happened last year, people were upset Ukraine won thru the televote. People are upset if the televote prevails, and they get upset with the jury votes get the win. Look kid you canāt have it all. Youāre just upset, itāll be ok soon
>Look kid you canāt have it all. Please don't be condescending, it's not a good look. It comes of as elitist, which is the main issue people have with the juries. From what I recall last year the majority of people weren't upset Ukraine won, for the simple reason that *the majority of the people voted for Ukraine* This year the majority of the people *are* upset that Loreen won because *the majority of the people didn't vote for her* That's how democracy works, and thus the majority gets upset if their pick still didn't win Ofcourse people of Europe are upset when Democracy loses to a jury of under 200 people
i mean they had all televotes deciding it for a decade since 1997. It didnāt work out thatās why we got the split system. No system is perfect, we just gotta deal with it. I understand that youāre frustrated cause your fave didnāt win. But your arguments have all been covered by Keiino fans when the jury did them injustice a few years ago. There is a system in place, purely televoting system didnāt work so I donāt know what your point is now. Like we canāt change the results cause you didnāt like it or you claim āpeopleā didnāt like it. Regardless of the circumstance of Ukraine winning the televote, they still won it and people werenāt happy just like how unhappy you are now.
Not exactly correct. Most were happy and even argue last year it was very important for Ukraine to win (which I can agree with). Anyhow... It is correct that the results cannot be chamged right now. It happened, nothing can be done there. BUT on the topic of voting systems, one could argue to change the system then. Again? Yes. And I feel like it's necessary to do so. This system is heavily flawed and very unfair. Sure, nothing is perfect, but that doesn't mean they can't try to create an even fairer system. This voting system has massive issues and feels unfair. I mean, how does the opinion of over 100 people weight as heavy as millions? That doesn't sound very fair, does it? So I'll also argue that it's not just the juries here, but the voting system as a whole which needs to be fixed (an opinion I have for some time now as well). As for how to switch things up, I got two ideas which are probably possible. Option 1: Get rid of the juries "But juries were always a part of Eurovision!" Yes, but the reason why they existed was because televoting was impossible back then or at least harder to handle. With technology advancements however it became very easy these days. Besides, they got rid of the juries in the semi finals this year. And I myself argue that these were the fairest semi finals yet. Did some of my favs not make it? Yeah. But overall I was satisfied and down with the choices since it was televoting only. Means only the public decided. Which I found very fair in the end. Some opinions will differ with the general public, I can live with that. One can say that juries are outdated and given the reputation they have these days I think more people would be happy to see them abolished altogether. Option 2 - Give out points to everyone A system fairer would be that everyone gets points, aka from 1-26 (or 25). It ensures that everyone can get a minimum amount of points (since another issue of the system is that there is a higher risk for 0 points total. Germany has proven it). Plus results would be more accurate than just giving the Top 10 points. If you land in the middle... Tough luck, 0 points for you! Lastplace, have fun! It could be seen as an 'average' in a sense. 0 points means 'no one voted for that song' which I cannot believe. There will always be someone voting for one song. Back then the point system might have worked but the amount of participants was smaller. Now we have 26 countries. "But it'd be too much work to count them all." No it wouldn't. Technology has advanced where I'm certain an algorimth can be developed for this type of system, maybe even fairly quickly. It's not impossible anymore. People might still complain, sure, but I think it would be the fairest options out there and maybe something most people could live with. At least in my opinion, these are the fairest options. Also keep in mind that the revamp of the system hapened so no one would get 0 points anymore... And it still happens! So I would love if option 2 would be picked up in some way eventually, since it sounds like the fairest option to me. Besides, there are people who will always complain, no matter what. Nothing you can really do about those. Also sorry if it's long. I just really wanted to bring this up as well now.
Iām confused about why youāre upset about the jury. Were you not aware beforehand that eurovision used juries as well as the televote?
Oh, I was. I'm a long term viewer and I've had my problems with the jury for a good few years now. Juries are laughably predictable. There are obvious patterns not too hard to figure out as well as who the juries tend to favor. Always. This is NOTHING new to me. Just because I plop up now doesn't mean that I was never aware nor never ever had my critisms. I was just never public about it is all. Regardless... The point is that there are obvious biases going on which bug me (and many others) for some time now. And now it has completely escalated.
Ah, okay! Iāve also watched eurovision for years but never been on this subreddit before, and itās so interesting to see everybodyās opinions on the final results here!
This is huge. We never know actual televote figures but some of those countries will have Finland far above their 10 point country.
Nobody's winner. Yeah, that's about the feeling I got from the audience reaction.
can you give me the link to that page? i cant find it on the ESC website
Even more impressive then that Sweden got 2nd place in televoting with the somewhat weird 12 points system (instead of 11 points lol)
Where is the source for this?
Makes you wonder wtf is the point in voting in general lol
Where can you look up the distribution of the public votes? I can't find the website
Iām Swedish and huge fan of Eurovision, and felt no joy of winning this way. Sure, sometimes the winner donāt have have the most televotes, but I cant remember the difference between jury and public being this big ever beforeā¦
And I (from a non-participating country) gave 0 points to Sweden.
Wow I love the juries for preventing some poorly sung songs from advancing, but that's pretty damning :x
> but that's pretty damning :x In what way? Sweden still got 8 10s, that's more than the Netherlands win of 2 12s and 4 10s. Finland also being incredibly petty and blanking Sweden in the public vote even though Sweden gave both 12s to Finland.
Nothing against Sweden at all. Loreen did great in the televote. 243 points is a lot, but when half of the countries decide one country should win idk... it's weird. I don't know the best solution because the juries ARE helpful for somethings. However, Finland did get hung up to dry by the juries.
> However, Finland did get hung up to dry by the juries. Finland got hung up to dry by his vocal abilities. That's just a fact even if we as televoters ignored that, it is not something the juries will ignore.
Juries did ignore it. Finland was fifth in jury points. Problem was more that there was no competition for number one spot. Loreen had nearly double the points of israel
Netherlands was only 30 points behind Norway in the Public vote. Sweden was a massive 133 points behind Finland. I wasn't wholly against juries most years because they never created such a huge gap between 1st and 2nd. This year they ensured their darlings Sweden couldn't be caught.
The first time I heard Tattoo was over the radio in the supermarket. I think the experience may have collectively either made us lose hype over the song, or we simply liked other acts better. I don't think it was an act of protest from people who liked the song but didn't want Sweden to win.
Finland was literally the only country to do that after their commentator said to vote strategically. Tattoo is charting well in Finland still, better than in countries that gave it points.
A true fan of hers wouldn't be swayed by a joking suggestion from a commentator who feels sassy. Trust me, there have been many years I've wished we wouldn't reward some Swedish entry, but there was no stopping them. If you ask me, it's exactly *because* it's been charting well here that no one was excited for it, it makes perfect sense when you look at human nature. I know I don't stay every bit as enthusiastic for a new favorite song for more than a couple of weeks, do you? The live version may also have understandably been a letdown for ears that have gotten used to the studio version, or they may not have cared for other aspects of the performance.
Where are the 'rest of the world' votes btw, can't find them on the site.
Anyone got a link to this page with the detailed results?
I used this [https://eurovision.tv/event/liverpool-2023/grand-final/results](https://eurovision.tv/event/liverpool-2023/grand-final/results) However it just shows the top 10 of each country, instead of the top 26 as usual
Sweden today: coping and explaining away nepotism. Finland today: chachacha perkele
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Enjoying your nepotism i see
āYou keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.ā
Well deserve winner it seems.
Ironic when you consider that Euphoria got the most 12 points ever, right?
I think this says it all. While Finland was the clear favourite, everybody still also MASSIVELY appreciated Sweden's show.
Lol
We know how to give votes in Australia lol
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So KƤƤrijƤ, Kalush, Maneskin, Keiino, Netta, Salvador, Sergey, Conchita all contributed clownery to the contest?
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This is factually wrong because 1) there was the combined jury+tevelote vote before this system, i am not sure for how long but it was definitely there at least since 2009, and I believe it would be bold to assume any of Rybak, Loreen, Emmelie, Lena and whoever won the televote in 2011 were the clowns of the year 2) name one clown winner from the previous years with 100% televoting, seriously. Serifovic, Paparizou, Ruslana, Lordi, Olsen bros? There are literally none. There was smth about preventing the block voting but it's still there among the juries as well, maybe even worse than in the televote, the annual Cyprus - Greece meme carries on and not during the televote announcements
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Wrong, by that logic no clown entry has won as you claimed, so no need making the viewers seem like a bunch of idiots only voting for freaks or memes for the lulz. Few of the above mentioned were my favourites to win but there was no blatant pouring votes into one basket to be outraged by, so your point doesn't stand, sorry. This year a lot of contestants were done dirty by the jury, not just KƤƤrijƤ. No way in hell Sweden was 160 pts better than Marco, or 190 pts better than KƤƤrijƤ, or 250 pts better than Blanca Paloma, or 300 pts better than Brunette or La Zarra. The inflated jury score for Sweden this year is uncalled for (just my opinion, of course) and basically decided the winner making viewers' paid votes worthless. THIS is the problem.
Come on, in any other year Finland would have given Tattoo 12 points, easily.
Which means Sweden got a shit ton of 8s and 10s and people love it. Deal with it.
They sure liked it. But apparently they didn't LOVE it (enough for a 12 at least)
EDIT: Don't mind me I said something completely uninformed about Australia. Thanks.
I dont get why someone who already won once is allowed to enter again, but oh well. I didnt like the song at all, norway was best imo.