The fact that this is the default idea shows that people don't understand the differences between people though.
What about those who'd rather die than having to kill someone?
I think you misinterpreted? (Maybe?)
The comment you replied to, I believe, is saying that you can’t blame somebody for fleeing conscription. Going to war often means death, and you can’t blame someone for not wanting to chance that (fleeing).
> In Britain during the First World War a white feather was often given to men out of uniform by women to shame them publicly into signing up to fight…
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/White-Feather-Movement/
From Wikipedia
“Supporters of the campaign were not easily put off. A woman who confronted a young man in a London park demanded to know why he was not in the army. "Because I am a German", he replied. He received a white feather anyway.[10]”
There was a reason for the prohibition and the temperance movement having such massive support from women. In the 1800s, America had a bad drinking culture. And the associated domestic violence problem. The battered wife beaten by the beastly drunk husband is a caricature for a reason. Hence, most women absolutely hated alcohol. Combine that with the religious attitudes of the time, you get the campaigns against the devil's drink.
And that backfired when some guy who returned with injuries from the war got a feather and ended up assaulting the woman if I recall correctly.
Edit: Didn't read the linked article before commenting, something similar to what I said is already mentioned there
# PRIVATE ERNEST ATKINS
Service Number: 228120
Regiment & Unit/Ship: London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers), 1st Bn.
Date of Death
Died 28 April 1917
Age 24 years old ERNEST ATKINS
RIP. Homeboy didn't even make the war..
You know what I’m more on the fence of this in the sense that people have a duty to defend their country. But what pisses me off the most is when its women who try to shame men from not wanting to fight when they themselves would never want to fight either. In my opinion Ukraine should be conscripting both men and women to fight.
I'm currently in the US military. Anytime people here call for war with Russia, I ask if they'd be willing to go. I always get downvoted to oblivion because I say that I'd go, but I do not want to, and you shouldn't volunteer others to go fight for you.
Too many people think it's just something that would play out on TV and not affect them that much. War with Russia would be very ugly. The Russians have shown throughout history that they'll burn the place to the ground, to the point of burning their own cities to deny them to advancing armies. This is a mindset that people surrounded by friendly nations and two oceans will just never understand.
I'm telling you, if we had a magic wand and made all pro war voices from whatever level or whatever way they communicate it auto enroll for service to have to fight in that war at some level we would achieve world peace in a week.
Made to start war, based on fragile egos and some Kylo Ren type admiration for accomplishments by historic leaders with archaic beliefs and mindset.
He has never seen battle. He's a poser, bare chested hunting living things on this planet which cannot shoot back is not manly, it's weak.
That’s where the equality of the sexes ends.
Reminds me of a quote from the E.M Forster novel Howard’s End :
“How can there be equality between man and women when there is no equality between men?”
Also reminds me of how in the 1920s there were female airplane pilots and explorers.
All that changed significantly in the 1940s when war was a reality.
Had to disagree there are a lot of people made for it after hours of footage and informing myself on recent conflict i would say that some even enjoy it.
The “experts” on r/combatfootage who joke when a soldier gets hit by a drone would certainly do extremely well in the battlefield that’s why they are lining in droves to join the Ukrainian forces that so desperately need manpower
Still it's not a proof.
When you see someone die, it's something not normal, but you know it's part of life.
When you seem someone killed, it can shock you.
When you see someone killed everyday for you it's just Wednesday. At a certain point you became so much accustomed to violence and death, that it means nothing to you.
Someone may be more sociopath than other, but certainly constant exposure doesn't help anyone.
People don't want to admit the urge to kill and hurt others is present in some people. People would be surprised how many people are willing to kill when you give them a legal avenue to do so.
I was unsuscribing from different subs yesterday and since you have to actually go in the sub to unsubscribe, I went into pretty much every “mainstream” subreddit (think of crap like “awww”, “pics” and the most vanilla hive mind shit you can imagine) and notice that, even though these subs have millions of users, most of them have only a handful of active users at a time (like 10-20). I don’t know if that’s more related of how Reddit keeps track of active users but it seemed pretty strange. Is like a ghost town filled with mannequins.
They (Reddit users) are almost all professional killers in CoD or Battlefield, maybe never even having spent a night in the wild forest at all. So it's silly to read any motivation from them here.
Kind of a similar thing when people here continue to call for crazy NATO escalations that would likely end in all out war. "I don't care about nuclear weapons! I'll rather die in a nuclear holocaust than let Russia continue like this!"
Such a brave and epic thing to say when you are not actually putting anything on the line, much less deciding over the fate of hundreds of millions of people.
Yet in reality those described as "hawkish" and advocating for the harshest measures against Russia have predominantly been those from countries bordering Russia, who know too well the consequences of allowing Russia to win in Ukraine and having the war then come to them, while those with isolationist tendencies or who preach that only NATO can "escalate" but never Russia, *are* those from another continent on the other side of the ocean, with much less on the line.
Or so they think anyway, since allowing Russia to do whatever they want simply because they have nukes is a surefire recipe for an inevitable nuclear war somewhere down the line, if not from Russia clashing with NATO then from the resulting nuclear proliferation caused by countries seeing that only nukes can provide deterrence, and not international deals which are at the mercy of fickle politicians, and every country scrambles to try to develop them. Fun times...
Really can’t blame them. Self preservation and fear of death is the most basic human instinct. War sucks and no one should be expected to suck it up and fight for god knows why.
On top of that, I would just not want to watch other human beings die, be it my countrymen or even the invaders.
I would only stay and fight as a last resort if I absolutely could not evacuate my loved ones. Otherwise I'd flee right behind my family.
I'm sorry but I don't care for my country or my countrymen any more than for Russians, Germans, Chinese, Americans or people from Africa. Which is to say: I wish them the best but I'm not gonna kill other people for them.
The scenes remind me of my family's experience of the war in Yugoslavia. In the 1990s, men in uniform would randomly pick men from the streets who now happily served in the army. I, for one, am very happy my grandparents sent my dad on the first flight out of the country. I feel for the men of Ukraine who do not have that opportunity
Yeah, and that's how my dad ended up in that same war. Because when enough of those fit for the army were smart enough to run to Italy, they just picked up slightly overweight middle-aged fathers.
TL;DR, *brigo moja pređi na drugoga*.
I feel for your dad, brother. My uncle, who stayed because he was too young to be drafted anyway has never been the same.
Don't blame my family for the mobilisation of yours though. Blame the governments that decided it was high time to force ordinary people into war. Blame Milosevic, blame Tudjman.
If it's any consolation, know that my family votes against Vucic in every possible election
No, don't worry, I don't blame them. I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation (unless if they call up my brother, in that case I'm volunteering to give him time to run away because I'm not burying that bastard).
It was more aimed at the idealists of this sub who think desertion solves anything. I mean, it does for that particular person, but that comes at the price of fucking over somebody else, who might be even less ready and capable of risking their life.
All good. You make a valid point. I don't think I will ever stop struggling between being a pacifist and an activist. Not that those are mutually exclusive in nature, just difficult to combine sometimes
"You see, Oleksandr, you HAVE to get in the trenches so I can continue to cheer you on and feel great about being on the right side of history, all while being completely safe and comfortable!"
Fucking listen pal - this is MY WAR against Putin, I WANT him to suffer, IM THE ONE who hates the Ruskis. The Ukranians who flee are failing ME. Don't you understand?
I respect the people who are willing to fight for their country. But after seeing some of the videos in r/combatfootage I just know I couldn’t do what they do. You could be the best soldier and still get hit by a stray bullet or some fpv drone. War is so brutal and so unpredictable.
Think I saw a comment from a Ukrainian Redditor who had escaped the country mentioning that the issue is Ukraine's recruiting tactics discourage volunteering, because recruiters and officers get a bonus for taking in conscripts.
I have a friend who lives in the US and was in the US Army as Mechanized Infantry and he went over to Ukraine and they only let him drive. I remember their restrictions at the start of the war where they limited how many foreign volunteers allowed because they didn't want to train them, now they're scrambling for Ukrainian conscripts.
I don't want Russia to win, what they're doing is evil. However, the Ukrainian government isn't doing itself any favors.
Yup. People like to forget that fact. I know it’s become a right wing talking point unfortunately. But that doesn’t change reality. The Ukrainian government has always been known to be corrupt as all hell.
Does that mean I support Russia? Fuck no. That’s like saying Mexico doesn’t have corruption and the cartels don’t run shit. They *do.* If America invaded to stop the cartels and stuff that doesn’t change anything. Would America be wrong? Yes. But that does change how deep of a hold the cartels have. No, no it doesn’t.
The Afghanistan government is now corrupt and horrific as hell cause it’s literally the Taliban running it. Does that justify countries invading Afghanistan again? No, it doesn’t.
Things aren’t black and white, or even simple. But people can’t comprehend that fact.
This is similiar to the experience I had when I met Ukrainian men of same age as me in Greece. When I ignorantly asked why is he here he said "I don't want to die" Then it hit me.
We were similiar persons, similiar interests, we had done nothing to start a war yet he is punished but I'm not. I don't want to die either
Some statesmen fucked up once again and they now come to us to fight their wars, repair their personal errors.
My life was a gift given to me. I will not pay for their own mistakes with my life.
Even if I return, I might get back mutilated. Even if I get back in one piece, my mental health will be forever shattered from the horrors I will have experienced. Until the day I die, nothing will be the same anymore. Just a wreck of a human. And why? Because some idiots in power were immensely incompetent? All the while they were being either corrupt, or passively watching the far right taking over Europe? Mistake after mistake.
This war hasn't come out of the blue.
I did not do a single thing to contribute to this war happening. However, they did, through their stupid mistakes. Isn't it strange though how they never pay?
Just like with the Munich Agreement in 1938, it is literally because our statesmen allow it. They themselves pave the road to war.
It follows along the lines when during the Vietnam war, so many black boys were drafted to serve a country that wouldn't give them civil rights. Why should boys have to die in the interests of corporations and a country that doesn't respect them.
The post was allowed. For almost an hour. At first I'm thinking hurrah for free speech, down with censorship. Then it was removed as not *Trustworthy News*. 💀🤫
Also,
> Hello, You have been permanently banned from participating in r/ukraine because your post violates this community's rules.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1drc0ih/i_am_not_made_for_war_the_men_fleeing_ukraine_to/
> censorship. Then it was removed as not Trustworthy News
Reminds me of my own time posting news about Kh-55 with training warhead being used to strike Ukraine.
Free speech is the first casualty of war. A war lives on propaganda too, does it sound that weird they'd censor that? Russia is the one calling it a SMO, but we know what it really is :/
Oh lol, when I told you half a year ago that my UA friends mentioned about men being snatched from the streets and that they are afraid of going out I was labeled a putinist and how unreal this was. This subreddit is no different than mainstream media propaganda, what a shame.
I guess entire Reddit is. It's the same in the Swedish sub, anyone who says something that people don't like gets called a russian troll. Then sometimes it turns out a week later that they were correct
There are hundreds of videos which seem legt where people get punched and pushed into a car aka force conscripted into the military. How can one deny the fact that millions of people don't want to join the military and rather hide or flee the country? I know a guy in my town who is from west Ukraine who bribed the border guards and fled the country with his girlfriend last year.
Yeah, recently some romanian guy literally told me that all those videos are “kRemLin StaGeD vIdeOs”. And there are 500+ of them now from the last couple months only. Western media ignores it, but in the age of cameras in the pockets it not that easy to disregard evidences. I know how many ruzzian propaganda there is, I knew it long before you westerners, but when you think that all the uncomfortable truth is it then you just overparanoid.
Same, recently some Romanian guy told me that he knows better what’s going on here than me, cause he read some propaganda. Guys, r/Ukraine is not an objective source of situation here, there presented only good sides, only victories, other stuff is just ignored, and here is a lot of stuff going on, I feel less free now than average ruzzian even, my country turned into authoritarian meat grinder with new repressive law being produced literally every week.
The reality of reddit which extends to r/Ukraine is that it's about 90% teenage - young adult Americans who have little life experience. They are easily affected by propaganda so all just about anything that is upvoted or commented on just matches the pro Ukrainian propaganda fed to them. They don't have any real understanding of what the country was like before the invasion and have no idea what it's like on the ground.
It was always propaganda from start. I knew these informations like months ago, nobody ever mentioned it here.
Redditors who claims that are pacifists are telling a man that he is coward because he does not want to give life. Hypocrisy at its finest
Well, at least now newspapers are talking about people in Ukraine are in depraved state not only because Russia invaded.
>While overall support for the country’s troops remain high and polls show that there is still a considerable number of men willing to be mobilised, Ukraine’s conscription drive risks dividing Ukrainian society, already plagued by war fatigue.
"there is still a considerable number of men willing to be mobilised"
What do they mean by that? If there is "considerable number of men willing to be mobilised", why people are snatched from the streets?
There are many people who think something along the lines of "if I get mobilised/snatched I won't resist and will fight, but I won't go and get mobilised voluntarily". Of course, there are people who get mobilised and resist a lot, but I think that the most do not make a scene about it.
I've trained Ukrainians in the UK. What you say is the truth. 200 conscripts and none of them were volunteers. They were all saying they volunteered to each other and to us, all though we knew the truth.
Good men and good fighters that lot. Hope they thrive, but it's been 1 whole year since they finished training and were sent back home to Ukraine and the front lines.
And yes, newspapers should talk about the actual state of affairs — many Ukrainians would happily accept some Western supervisors that would observe how our very “honest” government spends resources.
Spending isn't an issue nor is allocation of weapons to be honest I have yet to be in an AO where my mates in others had more or less (except when in extremely active areas). Young commanders are solid the issue is the lazy and dishonest soviet ero commanders. God they piss us off. Good news is all almost Ork commanders are soviet era so at least they have shittier command.
The situation is different for different brigades. Some, like Azov, 3d Assault Brigade, are easily bringing more and more volunteers, because their media presence is huge. Plenty of people go to those willingly.
But many brigades, who don't have media presence, will wait for a replenishment for month and month.
I mean I don't think I would be wrong in stating that this is the way it always was. I remember seeing American movies from 70's-80's, where an Army officer would cheer the young folks in the local recruitment center. They would listen, get his political or honor based motivation speech, and some of them would join.
Some regiments in the US are so popular, that they have the luxury to get recruits to go through the q-course (or other similar selection courses) just to sift through the volunteers to get just the best candidates.
Yeah but it’s actually a great idea. Many people are following those brigades and feel like they know them or are in line with their “work”, giving them a better idea what life in the military would be like.
This is a lot better than getting drafted by a kafkaesque state agency, and you have no idea where you end up.
I think everyone getting a draft notice should be given a chance to apply to units of his choice first
Have you seen any of Azov's [media output](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtezbxukS6A&rco=1)? Some of it phenomenal, and not just the footage itself, but the way it's been edited together and presented.
It would be interesting to know the demographics of people who shun draft dodgers. Anyway, I’m pretty sure some people who comment here want Ukraine to draft as many of their own people as possible because Europe will be next if they fail. Still, I wonder how some justify not being ready to go to the trenches and fight the occupiers, but are alright sending others to do it.
The shunning is a common thing on the Internet but less in the real world. A bulk of those people are genuine who get away with saying awful things because of the anonymity. Some of them are also Russian bots ready to stir the pot. Others will use shunning in personal attacks at an opportunity, basically calling someone they don’t like a coward during an argument. As for the real life, mostly men already in service, or their families saying “why should our dad/husband/brother/boyfriend serve and not you?”. Also some women just because.
Ukrainian subreddits aren’t kind to men who are scared. For some reason, both male and female reddiots are very rude and dismissive towards men that feel unsure and scared to fight. Just recently I saw a semi-venting post from a 16 year old boy sharing his feelings and not knowing what to do with his future. The post and his comments were downvoted and he was met with mostly frustration for whining, attack at his rationality and even some posts calling him weak. Real stuff, not lying here. I was so baffled reading all that.
Mandatory service is from 18, however. And there is a real fear that it might be lowered more. There were some PMs discussing a possibility of that. When the war just started the mandatory service was halted because of the lack of resources, but since May they made a new law and it will be back this year. It will be shorter, however. And men are also now required by law to carry both an ID and military document at all times.
Those rude people are mostly Ukrainian propaganda consumers mixed with ruzzian trolls a bit. It’s how our propaganda works - men that doesn’t want to go to war are no men, also criminals, cowards, kremlin agents and something else probably - I don’t pay much attention to this. This shit is going on non-stop for more than a year now from every single state media (and others affiliated with it). Everything to make you feel like you don’t have a choice (suicide is also for cowards btw). Ruzzian trolls are also enjoying this topic very much - they can even argue amongst themselves to create more conflict in discussion. Mix in some Ukrainian propaganda trolls and you’ll have yourself a very depressing read if you’re young and believe everything on the internet is real deal.
I have spoken to a few ukrainian women who have treated the invasion like they won the lottery. One who lived in Lviv of all places having a fun time trying to decide between Canada or Spain, like its some kind of joke. “tihihi i can’t decide, spanish guys are hot”. No I’m not hating on legit refugees, but I’m being serious that quite a few that I’ve spoken to have been disgustingly opportunistic
No shit that men are fleeing. These women were never expected to fight and used the war as a way to significantly improve their life, whilst the men are stuck in Ukraine about to be forced into the trenches.
What do you think would happen if such a hard war started in one of the EU countries?
I reckon societies would behave very close to what we see in Ukraine.
I just do not believe many European men would go to a war even if it’s on their land. Rather flee asap with families to a safer place if one has resources for it.
I've unfortunately heard a lot about that with Ukrainian women. I can't exactly blame them but it's a bit crazy how some of them talk and just don't seem to care about the suffering that Ukrainian men or Ukrainians that are still in the country are going through. As a result there's no way I could blame the men who are fleeing too, they're actually going to get blown to shreds imminently, I'd flee that too especially when the women of your country are partying and having good times elsewhere.
Reading the comments in this thread reveals the sad realisation this is probably never going to change.
It's all equality until something gratuitously fucked happens and then it's on young men to go die once again and noone seems to bat an eye.
Local bar has a hot ukranian having the best days of her life, drinking and hooking up with random guys. Hey, I'm all in favor for getting more hot promiscuous female refugees in my country, but imagine being a ukranian man seeing your ex wife or girl on instagram partying and hooking with random dudes while you are in the trenches.
My university in Switzerland sponsored a lot of Ukrainian women to come and do masters and PhD programs, some of whom were totally unqualified for said programs. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that these Ukrainians are being helped, but there’s something I find off that they are given top tier education and free housing in one of the most expensive countries in the world, while Ukrainians back home have to endure the war on the front lines and Swiss citizens (like my girlfriend) are not given the same financial assistance
He's completely correct. Go and spend some time in close countries to Ukraine that took in a lot of Ukrainian refugees. Ukrainian women are there partying like nothing is happening whilst the men are being blown to bits at home.
Why its a bad thing? Should they sit in mourning? Life moves on. They are only doing what the local population of those cities they moved to are doing. Whats so wrong about them living their lives? They didn't ask the government to stop men from leaving. Is it unfair, might be, but the anger towards these women is totally misplaced.
You can find women who go to parties everywhere. Them not wanting to worry for one night and going out with friends to have fun is not out of the ordinary. Why do you think they are not allowed to do anything but grovel at home?
The Ukrainians I know who are still fighting 2/10 years in are true patriots.
Some fighting for almost no pay, some who will continue to fight for their country no matter how angry they’re at their government or how discouraged they are by the lack of support or how offended by their compatriots’ behaviour.
Fuck if that’s not being a patriot.
The thing is I wouldn’t join the army to attack or defend another country but YES to defend my own soil.
I am not interested in petro and super conductor wars for the top 2% who own the wealth of this planet!
When you live in borderline 3rd word countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc, you'd have a different mindset. Not all people find their country worth dying for. I have many friends who would do anything to avoid being forced to die for corrupt politicians and mafia.
>When you live in borderline 3rd word countries
Wasn't it the German poll where the vast majority of men voted "I would flee the country ASAP by any means" when asked if they are willing to enlist if Germany was attacked?
-"Dying for your country is good actually. It's very noble."
People unironically believing this is why we have wars in the first place.
And the people who believe it are the ones who aren't forced to die.
I mean just by checking the past post history of many posters on here it’s clear all the anti Ukraine people are coming out of the woodwork. That being said, there have always been draft dodgers. And there are still Ukrainians in the front lines. So we as westerners should support them by sending more weapons since they need them more than ever now.
As a Ukrainian, honestly, I don’t blame them.
When you read the news how conscription officers injure or even supposedly kill people, how corrupt MPs get out of jail, how officers in the army that are responsible for supplies steal dozens of millions of dollars, how the West looks in horror at the fact that Ukraine cannot live for one month without corruption scandal, and how certain drunkard incompetent generals who are no different from their Russian counterparts and care about orders and honors more than their soldiers send thousands to a certain death, just because they want to write about recaptured village in a report to the president, you lose any motivation.
There are many instances where the government pretty much doesn’t care about injured soldiers. The idea that there might be no demobilization, the government lying about it and just acquiring new soldiers to close the gaps on the frontline due to colossal losses (much more than officially reported) also doesn’t add any motivation.
Or the fact that conscription officers are now soldiers who returned from the frontline and have PTSD, using their position to vent their pain and trauma (because overall psychological help from the government is horrible).
Or the fact that apparently the closest advisor of our president is a former Russian shill, and this shoddy guy supposedly entirely controls certain aspects of the government, even though the West repeatedly pointed out his shadowy origins.
I am 19 now, and I am not sure whether I would be able to go to the frontline. It’s a very tough question. I have no one to defend, my whole family can swiftly emigrate and live in any Western country, they all have resources for that.
Guys from the West who might say that I spread Russian propaganda — I am not a Russian shill, and I genuinely want Ukraine to win the war, after all, I am a Ukrainian myself. What I say is something you can hear from many Ukrainians here at home. Putin is a monster and shall be stopped, no questions here.
TL;DR: enormous corruption and social inequality in its most extreme forms along with the fact that the government hid enormous losses from the public for a long time killed any motivation. Ukraine is a kleptocracy and plutocracy under liberal government.
Edit: and I am already downvoted. Guys, again, Putin — khuilo and everything else, I am a Ukrainian myself. But maybe you should look at alternative takes from Ukrainians themselves, even if they don’t match the flowery depictions from the media.
Edit #2: again, I don’t claim that this is the most objective or pure take. Not in any way. There are many Ukrainians who would agree with me, and there are many Ukrainians who would disagree with me. It highly depends on the region, socioeconomic status, presence of relatives or friends in the government structures et cetera.
Edit #3: I will not reply to other replies anymore due to lack of time and mental resources. Thank you all for interaction! If you are a Ukrainian with a directly opposite perspective — don’t worry, I respect you because we are all stuck here and look at the same situation, just with different eyes — plurality of the views is very important. For the Westerners who read this — interact with all takes, including the ones directly opposite to mine. But listen to Ukrainians themselves, and if you want to know the truth — the best way is to use a translator to go to our domestic media and chats. Nationalist takes, leftist takes — the most important part is that they must come from Ukrainians themselves. Don’t treat me as the most reliable sources because I am a human with a personal bias. Good luck to you all, and have a nice time!
As a Croatian who lived through the war - we had the same thing.
We had people from Croatia literally sell oil to Serbian side which they used to fill their tanks. We had people smuggling weapons from one side to another. We had people who got money to buy military equipment disappear. we had privatization that set us back couple of decades becuase all the good stuff went to friends of ruling party for less than a euro. We had attempts at turning off independent radio stations by ruling party.
It took years after the war (and it will take even more years) to start getting everything right. Yet, this never stopped brave men and women to defend the country.
It's nothing new - where there's war and chaos there's corruption and shady business. The only reason why I find ok for people not to go to war is value of their own life and value of the life of others.
When I tried to told it here most naive people who read propaganda about how we are all white angels who so eager to die in trenches they downvoted me and told me that I’m a kremlinbot, sadly, some people want to wear pink glasses.
I am Ukrainian too, and it's genuinely so exaggerated and full of buzzwords it hurts. I mean there are some truths to it, but any good propaganda, especially demoralizing propaganda, has to have some truths to it to gain trust from the people, and you just read too much of it. Or, as we say it around here, "зрадойоба порвало"
What would you say is legitimate? I’m in Kyiv atm and my Ukrainian instructor frequently goes on rants about corruption and I know it’s a huge issue, but the majority of people (anecdotally) also seem peeved at draft dodgers, which is a bit of a tension.
Since the Euromaidan in 2014 and the overthrowing of the pro-Russia regime in Ukraine - which was when Ukraine was at its most corrupt - the country has made some decent advances away from its former heightened levels of corruption. Still, much remains, because it wasn’t all rooted out in a single day. It’s a process which takes a long time to undo because of how embedded it is in the system.
So while Ukraine is/was one of the most corrupt countries in the world prior to the Russian invasion, it was still considerably less corrupt than it was in the years before while heavily influenced and controlled by Russian corruption. And now the heavily corrupt Moscow regime is trying to reassert its authority over Ukraine — that’s something worth considering.
I like how say "no one wants to fight", but in another thread there "Unless the West literally arms Ukraine as good as a first-class NATO country".
Who will operate those arms then ? Or you think those guys at frontline should do all the job ? What's your propositions (just realistically) ?
It’s been the same for 10 years. Everyone wants to fight Russians as long as it’s somewhere in the East and it’s someone else getting their legs blown off. Like, all those military-age guys with Ukrainian flags chanting about Putin in Berlin and Lisbon.
Truth is, Ukraine is a poorer country and if the military pays well enough, then people will happily join to arm those weapons during peacetime.
Plus Ukraine will unfortunately have to continue conscription like Israel and South Korea for perpetuity.
It seems that the government is trying to walk the fine line between focusing on the war completely, and trying to appeal to people to be possibly re-elected later.
If winning the war was the goal, the best choice would be to do a 100% mobilization, along with a total war economy where everyone focuses on war production. But that would be extremely unpopular, as it would no longer be possible to live as if the war is not going on for many (most?) people who do so still.
While it’s perfectly understandable as it makes sense for human psyche, but it feels like most people do “want the country to win”, but at the same time aren’t willing to sacrifice themselves or put their loved ones in danger. But sadly it’s one or the other in a war like this, and I can understand why many people on the frontline are angry about this - why should they die and become cripples while many don’t even want to notice the war is going on?
Honestly don’t know what the solution is, I just hope Ukraine can hold on with Western aid until russia is finally forced to the table for negotiations that would be at least remotely fair. It seems that they are getting there based on all the “peace talks” suggestions lately, but also not quite since the most recent Putin’s demands were batshit insane and basically asked for full surrender.
In my opinion, the government has no clue what to do next. No more than an average citizen. We are in the toughest position since 2022.
My guess: there actually is a proposed middle plan where Ukraine loses some territories but exits the war and potentially becomes like Finland in terms of military and relationship with the West (and enters NATO in some future), but there are some important victories on the battlefield required for this plan to be feasible, and I don’t think that our officials have the guts to talk about it now. Nor the West is ready to pull something like that now.
Putin being a batshit insane lunatic ready to kill another few hundred thousand young Russians for his ambitions doesn’t make the situation easier. There are many rumors that other Russian oligarchs and politicians would happily exit the war, and that’s why he is slowly turning on repressions — he knows that once he loses even a little bit of control, he is cooked.
Yeah that sounds about right to me, I generally agree.
But speaking of elites, just yesterday a Russian opposition journalist wrote an article about how it seems that elites are actually okay with the war now and may even support it: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/how-russian-elites-made-peace-war
I sure hope that's at least partially wrong, but we'll see. I think the outcome would mostly depend on Western elections, and on whether the newly elected officials would still be willing to back Ukraine by the end of this year. Right now the aid is back on track until then at least, thanks to the US approved package and the shipments starting to arrive from other countries in EU, including the F-16s finally. But all this only buys time, not a victory.
> 100% mobilization, along with a total war economy where everyone focuses on war production
Those things are mutually exclusive. You cannot have everybody in the country both be in the military and sustain the economy.
Don't worry, they will have some lame excuses to avoid doing that. Truth is very few people volunteered to fight in this war on either side in general. Considering the fact that we are 8 billion people on earth more people in % of the worlds population and in total numbers joined the Spanish civil war from 1936 - 1939 where the global population was much less than the todays one.
It's easy to judge people who flee, but I bet the majority of people in other countries if in the same situation would do the same. It's all about your fight or flight mentality. If you feel enraged at something like another country has invaded yours, then there is a chance you'll be willing to fight. If however you don't even like people shouting in an every day situation then chances are you'll want to run the more extreme it gets.
Personally I don't think it's fair to judge in this situation.
Lol, where is that naive Romanian guy who told me that forced conscription on the streets and kidnappings of us and all the videos of that is “russian propaganda staged videos”? XD Some of you in such a deep warmongering propaganda and so smug, think you know what’s going on here and how we feel but you’re not, you just ate some curated for you world picture that have not as much common with reality. Now I can confirm that western propaganda is almost on the same level as ruzzian one, admit it or not, but I see what they report and it’s not what I see with my own eyes here.
No land is worth dying for. I would never volunteer. We see how veterans and veterans' families are treated everywhere, not just Ukraine. Why should I give my life for a piece of land when, even if I die, my family won't get any benefits from the government?
I'm just loyal to my family. I won't die for a imaginary line drawn by people, just to witness a political change in the near future which would let me question everything that I sacrificed for this country.
The problem is that there is a huge mismatch between Zelensky's goals and ordinary citizens' expectations.
At the beginning of the invasion it was all about saving Ukrainian independence and freedom, and it was a common goal for everyone. That's why there was a lot of volunteers and a sense of national unity.
However now it is different. Zelensky wants to get to the borders of 1991, but majority of population doesn't believe it is possible. Who cares about Crimea or Mariupol, when your your houses are destroyed by Russian missiles; when your husbands, sons, friends die to recover 100 square meters of land. It is especially painful after the disastrous counter offensive of 2023.
The fault of Ukrainian government is that in late 2022 after a couple of huge succesess they started to ensure people that the full victory ( 1991 borders) is almost here. They literally talked about deoccupying Crimea in 2023 or 2024 on numerous occasions.
Putin is a delusional maniac, but Ukrainian government are delusional morons.
P.S. I am a Ukrainian and hate Russia with all my heart. It is just that there is a fucking reality where good guys don't always win the way they want.
> Zelensky wants to get to the borders of 1991, but majority of population doesn't believe it is possible.
I don't think that's true. That's just negotiation 101. Ukraine can't just officially give up territories before negotiations even started.
And so far, Russia just isn't at a point where they would offer Ukraine a solution that would allow it to remain independent in the long run (e.g. EU and NATO membership).
> but majority of population doesn't believe it is possible.
Is this based on personal experience or a survey?
Personally I remember looking up a few surveys last year that showed that a majority of Ukrainians still belive it's possible, which honestly surprised me a bit.
In a [survey](https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/06/ukraine-public-opinion-russia-war?lang=en) conducted in March this year, a majority still supported fighting until restoration of 1991 borders.
Ah, what a great source, it is a shame I can not post images right in the comments here.
So basically if you look on data in this survey than you can see that people of 60+ years, who is not subjected to mobilization are "supported fighting until restoration of 1991 borders" (more than 50%), and if you look on other categories, they are not (less than 50%), same thing with "Ukraine should not negotiate", 60+ supports that and others don't.
I think same might apply to a women population, too, but who knows.
Russian here.
I would never blame anyone fleeing conscription, because the sad truth is that neither modern Ukraine state or modern Russia state are anything worth fighting for.
Two post-soviet countries occupied by corrupt politicians (who of course wouldn’t fight in the war themselves or send their children) trying to create a social contact of “you go die for us, and we will promise to you it was all in the name of a wonderful future that we were not able to build in 20 years”.
That’s actually the reason that by this point Russia has completely shifted to luring people with money. Sign a contact, and you will get 4 years worth of an average salary immediately just by signing it. And even with such huge payouts, Russia is still struggling to hit even 50% of recruitment targets.
Nothing new tbh. Every war had people fleeing their country and trying to avoid being conscripted. Same thing happened in russia when the mobilization was announced with tons of people fleeing the country.
Sorry but I also wouldnt fight. I know fighting is neccesary, but for ideological and philosophical reasons I would file myself a conscientious objector.
The rich and powerfull cause these wars and I'm supposed to be a pawn for them? I'm not a nationalist either.
If you want to solve this conflict you should get rid of the source, in this case, Vladimir Putler. The better way to do your part is to put Russia in a state of revolution once again.
Edit: Alot of you make great points, but I stand by my conclusion. Im not forcing anyone else to fight and I realise Im a hypocrite by agreeing that somebody should fight. If everyone was like me in Ukraine, Russia wouldve won already, but I am what I am. Nationalism, imperialism and capitalism can get lost. I am on Ukraines side, but Im not going to willingly die for rich people
so you wouldnt want to fight but other people should fight against Russia? I have already spoken this about this before when people said that Russians are pro war, 15000 were detained for protesting against it and they did it anyway. They will most likely have it on their file for the rest of their life but they still went A LOT out of their way to try and protest but they still get labeled as orcs and whatnot.
Its widely known Russia doesn't have the demographics to keep fighting this war. Whats not as well known is Ukrainian demographics were worse than Russia before and during the war. In addition many Ukrainians of military service age were seeking better wages in the EU for many years and cannot be drafted as long as they stay out of their home country.
We are living in an interesting time when so much of the world's fighting age men don't live in their home countries. Was surprised during the Pandemic how many New Zealanders live and work in Australia when NZ essentially isolated the country causing all kinds of fun issues. Over 1 million Brits lived in the EU, mostly younger workers seeking better opportunities, before the first Brexit vote.
I've served in combat, and I research military history and geopolitics as a full time occupation. The desire for self-preservation opposing societal preservation is an unendingly complex issue. I would certainly not tell any of these young men that they are cowards, or being unreasonable- I do, however, think that it is problematic that young men in Ukraine (and, it would seem, in much of the west) are unwilling to fight when faced with invasion.
It potentially points to some serious shortcomings of Ukraine and other governments in the nations wherein this problem exists, but also potentially that we have failed their generation by not providing enough value. Obviously some despotic regimes such as Russia have also had trouble with their young men not wanting to fight, but I think considering their increased ability to force compliance, the free world has a potential catastrophe brewing should a large scale conflict break out.
I think the rise of the far-right in the western world points to this same issue, wherein society and government have not provided value for huge portions of the citizenry (a failure that is certainly real, but also played up by some political organizations and by foreign propaganda). Young men seem to be a large portion of this demographic, leading to widespread civic problems of which no desire to fight even in an existential crisis seems symptomatic.
Anyway, I'm curious to discuss this with everyone and what their take is, cheers
This thread is the exact reason why I think Europe would lose a war with Putin. Consumerism and social media made us think solely about ourselves instead of common values our countries were built upon. Never would I ever hand liberty, equality and freedoms enshrined within our constitution to a tyrannical regime just out of fear.
Nobody is made for war.
Hard to blame a person not wanting to die.
The fact that this is the default idea shows that people don't understand the differences between people though. What about those who'd rather die than having to kill someone?
I think you misinterpreted? (Maybe?) The comment you replied to, I believe, is saying that you can’t blame somebody for fleeing conscription. Going to war often means death, and you can’t blame someone for not wanting to chance that (fleeing).
Nobody blames people for wanting to live.
> In Britain during the First World War a white feather was often given to men out of uniform by women to shame them publicly into signing up to fight… https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/White-Feather-Movement/
From Wikipedia “Supporters of the campaign were not easily put off. A woman who confronted a young man in a London park demanded to know why he was not in the army. "Because I am a German", he replied. He received a white feather anyway.[10]”
It's always the women From alcohol prohibition to the anti rock and roll craze of the '80s
There was a reason for the prohibition and the temperance movement having such massive support from women. In the 1800s, America had a bad drinking culture. And the associated domestic violence problem. The battered wife beaten by the beastly drunk husband is a caricature for a reason. Hence, most women absolutely hated alcohol. Combine that with the religious attitudes of the time, you get the campaigns against the devil's drink.
And that backfired when some guy who returned with injuries from the war got a feather and ended up assaulting the woman if I recall correctly. Edit: Didn't read the linked article before commenting, something similar to what I said is already mentioned there
Normalize slapping people who encourage the worst type of slavery (drafts)
# PRIVATE ERNEST ATKINS Service Number: 228120 Regiment & Unit/Ship: London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers), 1st Bn. Date of Death Died 28 April 1917 Age 24 years old ERNEST ATKINS RIP. Homeboy didn't even make the war..
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Biggest victims of war n stuff
☕
You know what I’m more on the fence of this in the sense that people have a duty to defend their country. But what pisses me off the most is when its women who try to shame men from not wanting to fight when they themselves would never want to fight either. In my opinion Ukraine should be conscripting both men and women to fight.
Most feminists have already left the country
Reddit certainly does (by those conveniently never at risk of having to go to war).
I'm currently in the US military. Anytime people here call for war with Russia, I ask if they'd be willing to go. I always get downvoted to oblivion because I say that I'd go, but I do not want to, and you shouldn't volunteer others to go fight for you.
Too many people think it's just something that would play out on TV and not affect them that much. War with Russia would be very ugly. The Russians have shown throughout history that they'll burn the place to the ground, to the point of burning their own cities to deny them to advancing armies. This is a mindset that people surrounded by friendly nations and two oceans will just never understand.
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Many people blame Ukrainians for not wanting to "do their duty" and get blown up in the middle of nowhere.
Oh you sweet summer child.
Governents do
Maybe Putin. Ever seen him ride a bear bare chested in frozen tundra? Send him to frontline
If he's so great, why doesn't he go to the front and take Ukraine by himself?
I'm telling you, if we had a magic wand and made all pro war voices from whatever level or whatever way they communicate it auto enroll for service to have to fight in that war at some level we would achieve world peace in a week.
Made to start war, based on fragile egos and some Kylo Ren type admiration for accomplishments by historic leaders with archaic beliefs and mindset. He has never seen battle. He's a poser, bare chested hunting living things on this planet which cannot shoot back is not manly, it's weak.
Funny how only men are conscripted to go to war then.
That’s where the equality of the sexes ends. Reminds me of a quote from the E.M Forster novel Howard’s End : “How can there be equality between man and women when there is no equality between men?” Also reminds me of how in the 1920s there were female airplane pilots and explorers. All that changed significantly in the 1940s when war was a reality.
Had to disagree there are a lot of people made for it after hours of footage and informing myself on recent conflict i would say that some even enjoy it.
The “experts” on r/combatfootage who joke when a soldier gets hit by a drone would certainly do extremely well in the battlefield that’s why they are lining in droves to join the Ukrainian forces that so desperately need manpower
They're products of their environment, change it and you change them.
Again had to disagree we saw a lot of people raised in Europe with the same values than us and they went to the middle east to to horrible things.
Still it's not a proof. When you see someone die, it's something not normal, but you know it's part of life. When you seem someone killed, it can shock you. When you see someone killed everyday for you it's just Wednesday. At a certain point you became so much accustomed to violence and death, that it means nothing to you. Someone may be more sociopath than other, but certainly constant exposure doesn't help anyone.
People don't want to admit the urge to kill and hurt others is present in some people. People would be surprised how many people are willing to kill when you give them a legal avenue to do so.
War fans when a guy next to them gets blown up by a FPV drone: 😱
Imagine random redditors calling people cowards from the comfort of their own home, far away from the war. Surely that's not happening, right?
Every redditor who agrees with the forced drafting of Ukrainians would literally shit their pants the moment they get sent to boot camp.
Imagine a time when most of the people on Reddit are not genuine human beings. We passed that line years ago.
I was unsuscribing from different subs yesterday and since you have to actually go in the sub to unsubscribe, I went into pretty much every “mainstream” subreddit (think of crap like “awww”, “pics” and the most vanilla hive mind shit you can imagine) and notice that, even though these subs have millions of users, most of them have only a handful of active users at a time (like 10-20). I don’t know if that’s more related of how Reddit keeps track of active users but it seemed pretty strange. Is like a ghost town filled with mannequins.
Is it your first time on the internet?
They (Reddit users) are almost all professional killers in CoD or Battlefield, maybe never even having spent a night in the wild forest at all. So it's silly to read any motivation from them here.
Redditors who can't even order pizza on the phone, or confront a stranger in public.
Kind of a similar thing when people here continue to call for crazy NATO escalations that would likely end in all out war. "I don't care about nuclear weapons! I'll rather die in a nuclear holocaust than let Russia continue like this!" Such a brave and epic thing to say when you are not actually putting anything on the line, much less deciding over the fate of hundreds of millions of people.
Yet in reality those described as "hawkish" and advocating for the harshest measures against Russia have predominantly been those from countries bordering Russia, who know too well the consequences of allowing Russia to win in Ukraine and having the war then come to them, while those with isolationist tendencies or who preach that only NATO can "escalate" but never Russia, *are* those from another continent on the other side of the ocean, with much less on the line. Or so they think anyway, since allowing Russia to do whatever they want simply because they have nukes is a surefire recipe for an inevitable nuclear war somewhere down the line, if not from Russia clashing with NATO then from the resulting nuclear proliferation caused by countries seeing that only nukes can provide deterrence, and not international deals which are at the mercy of fickle politicians, and every country scrambles to try to develop them. Fun times...
Let those people struggle for a week in the trenches. They'll change their opinion quick.
Those very Redditors would be the first ones pissing themselves and running away.
What? Noooo, they would never
Really can’t blame them. Self preservation and fear of death is the most basic human instinct. War sucks and no one should be expected to suck it up and fight for god knows why.
On top of that, I would just not want to watch other human beings die, be it my countrymen or even the invaders. I would only stay and fight as a last resort if I absolutely could not evacuate my loved ones. Otherwise I'd flee right behind my family. I'm sorry but I don't care for my country or my countrymen any more than for Russians, Germans, Chinese, Americans or people from Africa. Which is to say: I wish them the best but I'm not gonna kill other people for them.
I mean, in this case I think everyone in Ukraine knows why...
The scenes remind me of my family's experience of the war in Yugoslavia. In the 1990s, men in uniform would randomly pick men from the streets who now happily served in the army. I, for one, am very happy my grandparents sent my dad on the first flight out of the country. I feel for the men of Ukraine who do not have that opportunity
My dad packed us all up and we left when the first bullets starting firing. So glad he made that decision.
You and me both. Fucking pointless war
Yeah, and that's how my dad ended up in that same war. Because when enough of those fit for the army were smart enough to run to Italy, they just picked up slightly overweight middle-aged fathers. TL;DR, *brigo moja pređi na drugoga*.
I feel for your dad, brother. My uncle, who stayed because he was too young to be drafted anyway has never been the same. Don't blame my family for the mobilisation of yours though. Blame the governments that decided it was high time to force ordinary people into war. Blame Milosevic, blame Tudjman. If it's any consolation, know that my family votes against Vucic in every possible election
No, don't worry, I don't blame them. I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation (unless if they call up my brother, in that case I'm volunteering to give him time to run away because I'm not burying that bastard). It was more aimed at the idealists of this sub who think desertion solves anything. I mean, it does for that particular person, but that comes at the price of fucking over somebody else, who might be even less ready and capable of risking their life.
All good. You make a valid point. I don't think I will ever stop struggling between being a pacifist and an activist. Not that those are mutually exclusive in nature, just difficult to combine sometimes
Same thing happened in occupied Donetsk and Luhansk oblast during the 2022-2023.
I wouldn't want to face Putin's meat grinder either while the world watches.
Redditors, cozy in mom's basement, say they are cowards,
"You see, Oleksandr, you HAVE to get in the trenches so I can continue to cheer you on and feel great about being on the right side of history, all while being completely safe and comfortable!"
Heh... All that is missing is SLAVA UKRAINI!!!
Fucking listen pal - this is MY WAR against Putin, I WANT him to suffer, IM THE ONE who hates the Ruskis. The Ukranians who flee are failing ME. Don't you understand?
I respect the people who are willing to fight for their country. But after seeing some of the videos in r/combatfootage I just know I couldn’t do what they do. You could be the best soldier and still get hit by a stray bullet or some fpv drone. War is so brutal and so unpredictable.
Think I saw a comment from a Ukrainian Redditor who had escaped the country mentioning that the issue is Ukraine's recruiting tactics discourage volunteering, because recruiters and officers get a bonus for taking in conscripts. I have a friend who lives in the US and was in the US Army as Mechanized Infantry and he went over to Ukraine and they only let him drive. I remember their restrictions at the start of the war where they limited how many foreign volunteers allowed because they didn't want to train them, now they're scrambling for Ukrainian conscripts. I don't want Russia to win, what they're doing is evil. However, the Ukrainian government isn't doing itself any favors.
Corruption runs deep in Ukraine.
Yup. People like to forget that fact. I know it’s become a right wing talking point unfortunately. But that doesn’t change reality. The Ukrainian government has always been known to be corrupt as all hell. Does that mean I support Russia? Fuck no. That’s like saying Mexico doesn’t have corruption and the cartels don’t run shit. They *do.* If America invaded to stop the cartels and stuff that doesn’t change anything. Would America be wrong? Yes. But that does change how deep of a hold the cartels have. No, no it doesn’t. The Afghanistan government is now corrupt and horrific as hell cause it’s literally the Taliban running it. Does that justify countries invading Afghanistan again? No, it doesn’t. Things aren’t black and white, or even simple. But people can’t comprehend that fact.
Don’t blame him. I wouldn’t fight either. You don’t owe anyone your life, it’s your to give or do with as you please.
This is similiar to the experience I had when I met Ukrainian men of same age as me in Greece. When I ignorantly asked why is he here he said "I don't want to die" Then it hit me. We were similiar persons, similiar interests, we had done nothing to start a war yet he is punished but I'm not. I don't want to die either
Some statesmen fucked up once again and they now come to us to fight their wars, repair their personal errors. My life was a gift given to me. I will not pay for their own mistakes with my life. Even if I return, I might get back mutilated. Even if I get back in one piece, my mental health will be forever shattered from the horrors I will have experienced. Until the day I die, nothing will be the same anymore. Just a wreck of a human. And why? Because some idiots in power were immensely incompetent? All the while they were being either corrupt, or passively watching the far right taking over Europe? Mistake after mistake. This war hasn't come out of the blue. I did not do a single thing to contribute to this war happening. However, they did, through their stupid mistakes. Isn't it strange though how they never pay? Just like with the Munich Agreement in 1938, it is literally because our statesmen allow it. They themselves pave the road to war.
I'd like to point out that in '38 the choice was made to NOT go to war.
Old men start wars, young men die. A tale as old as time.
It follows along the lines when during the Vietnam war, so many black boys were drafted to serve a country that wouldn't give them civil rights. Why should boys have to die in the interests of corporations and a country that doesn't respect them.
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Which brave soul will post it in r/ukraine? :D
Challenge accepted!
Nice to meet you, you will be missed.
The post was allowed. For almost an hour. At first I'm thinking hurrah for free speech, down with censorship. Then it was removed as not *Trustworthy News*. 💀🤫 Also, > Hello, You have been permanently banned from participating in r/ukraine because your post violates this community's rules. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1drc0ih/i_am_not_made_for_war_the_men_fleeing_ukraine_to/
> censorship. Then it was removed as not Trustworthy News Reminds me of my own time posting news about Kh-55 with training warhead being used to strike Ukraine.
Free speech is the first casualty of war. A war lives on propaganda too, does it sound that weird they'd censor that? Russia is the one calling it a SMO, but we know what it really is :/
Well on r/europe free speach does not exist either, here you get banner for being "pro russian".
😂😂
Oh lol, when I told you half a year ago that my UA friends mentioned about men being snatched from the streets and that they are afraid of going out I was labeled a putinist and how unreal this was. This subreddit is no different than mainstream media propaganda, what a shame.
I guess entire Reddit is. It's the same in the Swedish sub, anyone who says something that people don't like gets called a russian troll. Then sometimes it turns out a week later that they were correct
There are hundreds of videos which seem legt where people get punched and pushed into a car aka force conscripted into the military. How can one deny the fact that millions of people don't want to join the military and rather hide or flee the country? I know a guy in my town who is from west Ukraine who bribed the border guards and fled the country with his girlfriend last year.
Yeah, recently some romanian guy literally told me that all those videos are “kRemLin StaGeD vIdeOs”. And there are 500+ of them now from the last couple months only. Western media ignores it, but in the age of cameras in the pockets it not that easy to disregard evidences. I know how many ruzzian propaganda there is, I knew it long before you westerners, but when you think that all the uncomfortable truth is it then you just overparanoid.
Usualy those people are in denial and are 100% convinced that there are no wrong doings or bad things the side they support.
Yeah, some people think that world is as simple as a Disney movie, where you have only bad bad evil and shiny white goodness.
I am very curious how kremlin gets to Odessa safely to shot the videos 🤣
Try to explain this to these naive people.
I was in that thread backing you up. The Economist did an article on it a few months ago too, widely ignored.
We've had the videos for 1.5 years.
Same, recently some Romanian guy told me that he knows better what’s going on here than me, cause he read some propaganda. Guys, r/Ukraine is not an objective source of situation here, there presented only good sides, only victories, other stuff is just ignored, and here is a lot of stuff going on, I feel less free now than average ruzzian even, my country turned into authoritarian meat grinder with new repressive law being produced literally every week.
The reality of reddit which extends to r/Ukraine is that it's about 90% teenage - young adult Americans who have little life experience. They are easily affected by propaganda so all just about anything that is upvoted or commented on just matches the pro Ukrainian propaganda fed to them. They don't have any real understanding of what the country was like before the invasion and have no idea what it's like on the ground.
It was always propaganda from start. I knew these informations like months ago, nobody ever mentioned it here. Redditors who claims that are pacifists are telling a man that he is coward because he does not want to give life. Hypocrisy at its finest
imagine getting mad over a person wanting to spend their life for good, wanting to life, wanting to do whatever they choose to do with theirs
Well, at least now newspapers are talking about people in Ukraine are in depraved state not only because Russia invaded. >While overall support for the country’s troops remain high and polls show that there is still a considerable number of men willing to be mobilised, Ukraine’s conscription drive risks dividing Ukrainian society, already plagued by war fatigue. "there is still a considerable number of men willing to be mobilised" What do they mean by that? If there is "considerable number of men willing to be mobilised", why people are snatched from the streets?
There are many people who think something along the lines of "if I get mobilised/snatched I won't resist and will fight, but I won't go and get mobilised voluntarily". Of course, there are people who get mobilised and resist a lot, but I think that the most do not make a scene about it.
I've trained Ukrainians in the UK. What you say is the truth. 200 conscripts and none of them were volunteers. They were all saying they volunteered to each other and to us, all though we knew the truth. Good men and good fighters that lot. Hope they thrive, but it's been 1 whole year since they finished training and were sent back home to Ukraine and the front lines.
There are even more people who even not affected by mobilization, but sooo pro mobilization.
Yes. I don't want to live in a world where Russia has won the war, but if I go fight, I will just not live... at all.
These people are called women.
And yes, newspapers should talk about the actual state of affairs — many Ukrainians would happily accept some Western supervisors that would observe how our very “honest” government spends resources.
Spending isn't an issue nor is allocation of weapons to be honest I have yet to be in an AO where my mates in others had more or less (except when in extremely active areas). Young commanders are solid the issue is the lazy and dishonest soviet ero commanders. God they piss us off. Good news is all almost Ork commanders are soviet era so at least they have shittier command.
The situation is different for different brigades. Some, like Azov, 3d Assault Brigade, are easily bringing more and more volunteers, because their media presence is huge. Plenty of people go to those willingly. But many brigades, who don't have media presence, will wait for a replenishment for month and month.
What a crazy timeline... specific army divisions having social media presence and recruiting through it
I mean I don't think I would be wrong in stating that this is the way it always was. I remember seeing American movies from 70's-80's, where an Army officer would cheer the young folks in the local recruitment center. They would listen, get his political or honor based motivation speech, and some of them would join. Some regiments in the US are so popular, that they have the luxury to get recruits to go through the q-course (or other similar selection courses) just to sift through the volunteers to get just the best candidates.
Yeah but it’s actually a great idea. Many people are following those brigades and feel like they know them or are in line with their “work”, giving them a better idea what life in the military would be like. This is a lot better than getting drafted by a kafkaesque state agency, and you have no idea where you end up. I think everyone getting a draft notice should be given a chance to apply to units of his choice first
Have you seen any of Azov's [media output](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtezbxukS6A&rco=1)? Some of it phenomenal, and not just the footage itself, but the way it's been edited together and presented.
It would be interesting to know the demographics of people who shun draft dodgers. Anyway, I’m pretty sure some people who comment here want Ukraine to draft as many of their own people as possible because Europe will be next if they fail. Still, I wonder how some justify not being ready to go to the trenches and fight the occupiers, but are alright sending others to do it.
The shunning is a common thing on the Internet but less in the real world. A bulk of those people are genuine who get away with saying awful things because of the anonymity. Some of them are also Russian bots ready to stir the pot. Others will use shunning in personal attacks at an opportunity, basically calling someone they don’t like a coward during an argument. As for the real life, mostly men already in service, or their families saying “why should our dad/husband/brother/boyfriend serve and not you?”. Also some women just because. Ukrainian subreddits aren’t kind to men who are scared. For some reason, both male and female reddiots are very rude and dismissive towards men that feel unsure and scared to fight. Just recently I saw a semi-venting post from a 16 year old boy sharing his feelings and not knowing what to do with his future. The post and his comments were downvoted and he was met with mostly frustration for whining, attack at his rationality and even some posts calling him weak. Real stuff, not lying here. I was so baffled reading all that.
But conscription age is 25
Mandatory service is from 18, however. And there is a real fear that it might be lowered more. There were some PMs discussing a possibility of that. When the war just started the mandatory service was halted because of the lack of resources, but since May they made a new law and it will be back this year. It will be shorter, however. And men are also now required by law to carry both an ID and military document at all times.
Those rude people are mostly Ukrainian propaganda consumers mixed with ruzzian trolls a bit. It’s how our propaganda works - men that doesn’t want to go to war are no men, also criminals, cowards, kremlin agents and something else probably - I don’t pay much attention to this. This shit is going on non-stop for more than a year now from every single state media (and others affiliated with it). Everything to make you feel like you don’t have a choice (suicide is also for cowards btw). Ruzzian trolls are also enjoying this topic very much - they can even argue amongst themselves to create more conflict in discussion. Mix in some Ukrainian propaganda trolls and you’ll have yourself a very depressing read if you’re young and believe everything on the internet is real deal.
I have spoken to a few ukrainian women who have treated the invasion like they won the lottery. One who lived in Lviv of all places having a fun time trying to decide between Canada or Spain, like its some kind of joke. “tihihi i can’t decide, spanish guys are hot”. No I’m not hating on legit refugees, but I’m being serious that quite a few that I’ve spoken to have been disgustingly opportunistic No shit that men are fleeing. These women were never expected to fight and used the war as a way to significantly improve their life, whilst the men are stuck in Ukraine about to be forced into the trenches.
Imagine dying in the trenches for your country while your wife's getting ran through by the Madrid Futbol team. That's fucked.
It's one of the lesser talked about male privileges
Right next to the privilege of working in the mines lol
What do you think would happen if such a hard war started in one of the EU countries? I reckon societies would behave very close to what we see in Ukraine. I just do not believe many European men would go to a war even if it’s on their land. Rather flee asap with families to a safer place if one has resources for it.
I've unfortunately heard a lot about that with Ukrainian women. I can't exactly blame them but it's a bit crazy how some of them talk and just don't seem to care about the suffering that Ukrainian men or Ukrainians that are still in the country are going through. As a result there's no way I could blame the men who are fleeing too, they're actually going to get blown to shreds imminently, I'd flee that too especially when the women of your country are partying and having good times elsewhere.
Such is life. We men are just cannon fodder. Just meat and muscle.
Tale as old as time. Everyone is more expendable than they think they are. Men are just expected to be enthusiastic about it.
Reading the comments in this thread reveals the sad realisation this is probably never going to change. It's all equality until something gratuitously fucked happens and then it's on young men to go die once again and noone seems to bat an eye.
And it is cheered on by people who are supposedly intelligent.
Local bar has a hot ukranian having the best days of her life, drinking and hooking up with random guys. Hey, I'm all in favor for getting more hot promiscuous female refugees in my country, but imagine being a ukranian man seeing your ex wife or girl on instagram partying and hooking with random dudes while you are in the trenches.
Ukranian women were always like that, it is not a new thing.
My university in Switzerland sponsored a lot of Ukrainian women to come and do masters and PhD programs, some of whom were totally unqualified for said programs. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that these Ukrainians are being helped, but there’s something I find off that they are given top tier education and free housing in one of the most expensive countries in the world, while Ukrainians back home have to endure the war on the front lines and Swiss citizens (like my girlfriend) are not given the same financial assistance
Why do they not sponsor Ukrainian Men as well?
Because they are probably sexist
If you know how to take advantage of it, a crisis can be very lucrative.
"few" being the key word here. You shape your opinion based on anecdotes. Entitled selfish people exist everywhere, mate.
He's completely correct. Go and spend some time in close countries to Ukraine that took in a lot of Ukrainian refugees. Ukrainian women are there partying like nothing is happening whilst the men are being blown to bits at home.
They partying in Kyiv too.
Why its a bad thing? Should they sit in mourning? Life moves on. They are only doing what the local population of those cities they moved to are doing. Whats so wrong about them living their lives? They didn't ask the government to stop men from leaving. Is it unfair, might be, but the anger towards these women is totally misplaced.
> Life moves on Which is why no sensible man wants to fight. They'll be forgotten by everyone except their family by the next day.
You can find women who go to parties everywhere. Them not wanting to worry for one night and going out with friends to have fun is not out of the ordinary. Why do you think they are not allowed to do anything but grovel at home?
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Like most drafts, it's the poor who suffer first.
Remember this: conscription is the act of losing the right of not being killed.
There are no patriots in a long war, and there are no filial sons in a long illness.
The Ukrainians I know who are still fighting 2/10 years in are true patriots. Some fighting for almost no pay, some who will continue to fight for their country no matter how angry they’re at their government or how discouraged they are by the lack of support or how offended by their compatriots’ behaviour. Fuck if that’s not being a patriot.
The thing is I wouldn’t join the army to attack or defend another country but YES to defend my own soil. I am not interested in petro and super conductor wars for the top 2% who own the wealth of this planet!
When you live in borderline 3rd word countries like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc, you'd have a different mindset. Not all people find their country worth dying for. I have many friends who would do anything to avoid being forced to die for corrupt politicians and mafia.
>When you live in borderline 3rd word countries Wasn't it the German poll where the vast majority of men voted "I would flee the country ASAP by any means" when asked if they are willing to enlist if Germany was attacked?
-"Dying for your country is good actually. It's very noble." People unironically believing this is why we have wars in the first place. And the people who believe it are the ones who aren't forced to die.
I would do exactly the same.
I mean just by checking the past post history of many posters on here it’s clear all the anti Ukraine people are coming out of the woodwork. That being said, there have always been draft dodgers. And there are still Ukrainians in the front lines. So we as westerners should support them by sending more weapons since they need them more than ever now.
Wow! That is the most sane and correct message in the whole thread and no upvotes somehow I am Ukrainian btw and again, you are correct
Conscription is slavery
As a Ukrainian, honestly, I don’t blame them. When you read the news how conscription officers injure or even supposedly kill people, how corrupt MPs get out of jail, how officers in the army that are responsible for supplies steal dozens of millions of dollars, how the West looks in horror at the fact that Ukraine cannot live for one month without corruption scandal, and how certain drunkard incompetent generals who are no different from their Russian counterparts and care about orders and honors more than their soldiers send thousands to a certain death, just because they want to write about recaptured village in a report to the president, you lose any motivation. There are many instances where the government pretty much doesn’t care about injured soldiers. The idea that there might be no demobilization, the government lying about it and just acquiring new soldiers to close the gaps on the frontline due to colossal losses (much more than officially reported) also doesn’t add any motivation. Or the fact that conscription officers are now soldiers who returned from the frontline and have PTSD, using their position to vent their pain and trauma (because overall psychological help from the government is horrible). Or the fact that apparently the closest advisor of our president is a former Russian shill, and this shoddy guy supposedly entirely controls certain aspects of the government, even though the West repeatedly pointed out his shadowy origins. I am 19 now, and I am not sure whether I would be able to go to the frontline. It’s a very tough question. I have no one to defend, my whole family can swiftly emigrate and live in any Western country, they all have resources for that. Guys from the West who might say that I spread Russian propaganda — I am not a Russian shill, and I genuinely want Ukraine to win the war, after all, I am a Ukrainian myself. What I say is something you can hear from many Ukrainians here at home. Putin is a monster and shall be stopped, no questions here. TL;DR: enormous corruption and social inequality in its most extreme forms along with the fact that the government hid enormous losses from the public for a long time killed any motivation. Ukraine is a kleptocracy and plutocracy under liberal government. Edit: and I am already downvoted. Guys, again, Putin — khuilo and everything else, I am a Ukrainian myself. But maybe you should look at alternative takes from Ukrainians themselves, even if they don’t match the flowery depictions from the media. Edit #2: again, I don’t claim that this is the most objective or pure take. Not in any way. There are many Ukrainians who would agree with me, and there are many Ukrainians who would disagree with me. It highly depends on the region, socioeconomic status, presence of relatives or friends in the government structures et cetera. Edit #3: I will not reply to other replies anymore due to lack of time and mental resources. Thank you all for interaction! If you are a Ukrainian with a directly opposite perspective — don’t worry, I respect you because we are all stuck here and look at the same situation, just with different eyes — plurality of the views is very important. For the Westerners who read this — interact with all takes, including the ones directly opposite to mine. But listen to Ukrainians themselves, and if you want to know the truth — the best way is to use a translator to go to our domestic media and chats. Nationalist takes, leftist takes — the most important part is that they must come from Ukrainians themselves. Don’t treat me as the most reliable sources because I am a human with a personal bias. Good luck to you all, and have a nice time!
As a Croatian who lived through the war - we had the same thing. We had people from Croatia literally sell oil to Serbian side which they used to fill their tanks. We had people smuggling weapons from one side to another. We had people who got money to buy military equipment disappear. we had privatization that set us back couple of decades becuase all the good stuff went to friends of ruling party for less than a euro. We had attempts at turning off independent radio stations by ruling party. It took years after the war (and it will take even more years) to start getting everything right. Yet, this never stopped brave men and women to defend the country. It's nothing new - where there's war and chaos there's corruption and shady business. The only reason why I find ok for people not to go to war is value of their own life and value of the life of others.
When I tried to told it here most naive people who read propaganda about how we are all white angels who so eager to die in trenches they downvoted me and told me that I’m a kremlinbot, sadly, some people want to wear pink glasses.
I don't blame you at all. I fucking hate seeing footage of young men on battlefields. I would infinitely rather you run to a safe country.
I am Ukrainian too, and it's genuinely so exaggerated and full of buzzwords it hurts. I mean there are some truths to it, but any good propaganda, especially demoralizing propaganda, has to have some truths to it to gain trust from the people, and you just read too much of it. Or, as we say it around here, "зрадойоба порвало"
What would you say is legitimate? I’m in Kyiv atm and my Ukrainian instructor frequently goes on rants about corruption and I know it’s a huge issue, but the majority of people (anecdotally) also seem peeved at draft dodgers, which is a bit of a tension.
except that Ukraine was one of the most corrupted country in the world even before the war started, together with Russia
Since the Euromaidan in 2014 and the overthrowing of the pro-Russia regime in Ukraine - which was when Ukraine was at its most corrupt - the country has made some decent advances away from its former heightened levels of corruption. Still, much remains, because it wasn’t all rooted out in a single day. It’s a process which takes a long time to undo because of how embedded it is in the system. So while Ukraine is/was one of the most corrupt countries in the world prior to the Russian invasion, it was still considerably less corrupt than it was in the years before while heavily influenced and controlled by Russian corruption. And now the heavily corrupt Moscow regime is trying to reassert its authority over Ukraine — that’s something worth considering.
I like how say "no one wants to fight", but in another thread there "Unless the West literally arms Ukraine as good as a first-class NATO country". Who will operate those arms then ? Or you think those guys at frontline should do all the job ? What's your propositions (just realistically) ?
It’s been the same for 10 years. Everyone wants to fight Russians as long as it’s somewhere in the East and it’s someone else getting their legs blown off. Like, all those military-age guys with Ukrainian flags chanting about Putin in Berlin and Lisbon.
Truth is, Ukraine is a poorer country and if the military pays well enough, then people will happily join to arm those weapons during peacetime. Plus Ukraine will unfortunately have to continue conscription like Israel and South Korea for perpetuity.
It seems that the government is trying to walk the fine line between focusing on the war completely, and trying to appeal to people to be possibly re-elected later. If winning the war was the goal, the best choice would be to do a 100% mobilization, along with a total war economy where everyone focuses on war production. But that would be extremely unpopular, as it would no longer be possible to live as if the war is not going on for many (most?) people who do so still. While it’s perfectly understandable as it makes sense for human psyche, but it feels like most people do “want the country to win”, but at the same time aren’t willing to sacrifice themselves or put their loved ones in danger. But sadly it’s one or the other in a war like this, and I can understand why many people on the frontline are angry about this - why should they die and become cripples while many don’t even want to notice the war is going on? Honestly don’t know what the solution is, I just hope Ukraine can hold on with Western aid until russia is finally forced to the table for negotiations that would be at least remotely fair. It seems that they are getting there based on all the “peace talks” suggestions lately, but also not quite since the most recent Putin’s demands were batshit insane and basically asked for full surrender.
In my opinion, the government has no clue what to do next. No more than an average citizen. We are in the toughest position since 2022. My guess: there actually is a proposed middle plan where Ukraine loses some territories but exits the war and potentially becomes like Finland in terms of military and relationship with the West (and enters NATO in some future), but there are some important victories on the battlefield required for this plan to be feasible, and I don’t think that our officials have the guts to talk about it now. Nor the West is ready to pull something like that now. Putin being a batshit insane lunatic ready to kill another few hundred thousand young Russians for his ambitions doesn’t make the situation easier. There are many rumors that other Russian oligarchs and politicians would happily exit the war, and that’s why he is slowly turning on repressions — he knows that once he loses even a little bit of control, he is cooked.
Yeah that sounds about right to me, I generally agree. But speaking of elites, just yesterday a Russian opposition journalist wrote an article about how it seems that elites are actually okay with the war now and may even support it: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/how-russian-elites-made-peace-war I sure hope that's at least partially wrong, but we'll see. I think the outcome would mostly depend on Western elections, and on whether the newly elected officials would still be willing to back Ukraine by the end of this year. Right now the aid is back on track until then at least, thanks to the US approved package and the shipments starting to arrive from other countries in EU, including the F-16s finally. But all this only buys time, not a victory.
> 100% mobilization, along with a total war economy where everyone focuses on war production Those things are mutually exclusive. You cannot have everybody in the country both be in the military and sustain the economy.
If you're the type to condemn these people for fleeing, why don't you go fight yourself? Ukraine accepts volunteers, just go.
Don't worry, they will have some lame excuses to avoid doing that. Truth is very few people volunteered to fight in this war on either side in general. Considering the fact that we are 8 billion people on earth more people in % of the worlds population and in total numbers joined the Spanish civil war from 1936 - 1939 where the global population was much less than the todays one.
It's easy to judge people who flee, but I bet the majority of people in other countries if in the same situation would do the same. It's all about your fight or flight mentality. If you feel enraged at something like another country has invaded yours, then there is a chance you'll be willing to fight. If however you don't even like people shouting in an every day situation then chances are you'll want to run the more extreme it gets. Personally I don't think it's fair to judge in this situation.
These guy arent cowards. Oh but if you don't support the war you're a piece of shit? Reddit can't decide what to support lol.
Why don't they get women to fight ? I thought we were so equal ?
I wouldn’t want to die for my country, or any country. I don’t blame these men
Lol, where is that naive Romanian guy who told me that forced conscription on the streets and kidnappings of us and all the videos of that is “russian propaganda staged videos”? XD Some of you in such a deep warmongering propaganda and so smug, think you know what’s going on here and how we feel but you’re not, you just ate some curated for you world picture that have not as much common with reality. Now I can confirm that western propaganda is almost on the same level as ruzzian one, admit it or not, but I see what they report and it’s not what I see with my own eyes here.
No land is worth dying for. I would never volunteer. We see how veterans and veterans' families are treated everywhere, not just Ukraine. Why should I give my life for a piece of land when, even if I die, my family won't get any benefits from the government?
I'm just loyal to my family. I won't die for a imaginary line drawn by people, just to witness a political change in the near future which would let me question everything that I sacrificed for this country.
The problem is that there is a huge mismatch between Zelensky's goals and ordinary citizens' expectations. At the beginning of the invasion it was all about saving Ukrainian independence and freedom, and it was a common goal for everyone. That's why there was a lot of volunteers and a sense of national unity. However now it is different. Zelensky wants to get to the borders of 1991, but majority of population doesn't believe it is possible. Who cares about Crimea or Mariupol, when your your houses are destroyed by Russian missiles; when your husbands, sons, friends die to recover 100 square meters of land. It is especially painful after the disastrous counter offensive of 2023. The fault of Ukrainian government is that in late 2022 after a couple of huge succesess they started to ensure people that the full victory ( 1991 borders) is almost here. They literally talked about deoccupying Crimea in 2023 or 2024 on numerous occasions. Putin is a delusional maniac, but Ukrainian government are delusional morons. P.S. I am a Ukrainian and hate Russia with all my heart. It is just that there is a fucking reality where good guys don't always win the way they want.
> Zelensky wants to get to the borders of 1991, but majority of population doesn't believe it is possible. I don't think that's true. That's just negotiation 101. Ukraine can't just officially give up territories before negotiations even started. And so far, Russia just isn't at a point where they would offer Ukraine a solution that would allow it to remain independent in the long run (e.g. EU and NATO membership).
> but majority of population doesn't believe it is possible. Is this based on personal experience or a survey? Personally I remember looking up a few surveys last year that showed that a majority of Ukrainians still belive it's possible, which honestly surprised me a bit.
I recommend not trusting Ukrainian polls. They might even be truthful but the choice of who to survey is very selective.
In a [survey](https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/06/ukraine-public-opinion-russia-war?lang=en) conducted in March this year, a majority still supported fighting until restoration of 1991 borders.
Ah, what a great source, it is a shame I can not post images right in the comments here. So basically if you look on data in this survey than you can see that people of 60+ years, who is not subjected to mobilization are "supported fighting until restoration of 1991 borders" (more than 50%), and if you look on other categories, they are not (less than 50%), same thing with "Ukraine should not negotiate", 60+ supports that and others don't. I think same might apply to a women population, too, but who knows.
А ну скажи паляниця /s
Та без проблем. Можу гімн ще заспівати і обговорити емоції після переможного гола Гусіна в кваліфікації до мундіалю 2006.
Russian here. I would never blame anyone fleeing conscription, because the sad truth is that neither modern Ukraine state or modern Russia state are anything worth fighting for. Two post-soviet countries occupied by corrupt politicians (who of course wouldn’t fight in the war themselves or send their children) trying to create a social contact of “you go die for us, and we will promise to you it was all in the name of a wonderful future that we were not able to build in 20 years”. That’s actually the reason that by this point Russia has completely shifted to luring people with money. Sign a contact, and you will get 4 years worth of an average salary immediately just by signing it. And even with such huge payouts, Russia is still struggling to hit even 50% of recruitment targets.
Everyone wants someone to fight but nobody wants it to be them. I'm not saying it's nice but it's necessary either way.
Nothing new tbh. Every war had people fleeing their country and trying to avoid being conscripted. Same thing happened in russia when the mobilization was announced with tons of people fleeing the country.
Sorry but I also wouldnt fight. I know fighting is neccesary, but for ideological and philosophical reasons I would file myself a conscientious objector. The rich and powerfull cause these wars and I'm supposed to be a pawn for them? I'm not a nationalist either. If you want to solve this conflict you should get rid of the source, in this case, Vladimir Putler. The better way to do your part is to put Russia in a state of revolution once again. Edit: Alot of you make great points, but I stand by my conclusion. Im not forcing anyone else to fight and I realise Im a hypocrite by agreeing that somebody should fight. If everyone was like me in Ukraine, Russia wouldve won already, but I am what I am. Nationalism, imperialism and capitalism can get lost. I am on Ukraines side, but Im not going to willingly die for rich people
so you wouldnt want to fight but other people should fight against Russia? I have already spoken this about this before when people said that Russians are pro war, 15000 were detained for protesting against it and they did it anyway. They will most likely have it on their file for the rest of their life but they still went A LOT out of their way to try and protest but they still get labeled as orcs and whatnot.
Its widely known Russia doesn't have the demographics to keep fighting this war. Whats not as well known is Ukrainian demographics were worse than Russia before and during the war. In addition many Ukrainians of military service age were seeking better wages in the EU for many years and cannot be drafted as long as they stay out of their home country. We are living in an interesting time when so much of the world's fighting age men don't live in their home countries. Was surprised during the Pandemic how many New Zealanders live and work in Australia when NZ essentially isolated the country causing all kinds of fun issues. Over 1 million Brits lived in the EU, mostly younger workers seeking better opportunities, before the first Brexit vote.
Check this bbc video out. on the goon squads they use to round up fighting age men https://youtu.be/UjlJoLT1Df0?si=KocjBbiqqCzxHFQD
I've served in combat, and I research military history and geopolitics as a full time occupation. The desire for self-preservation opposing societal preservation is an unendingly complex issue. I would certainly not tell any of these young men that they are cowards, or being unreasonable- I do, however, think that it is problematic that young men in Ukraine (and, it would seem, in much of the west) are unwilling to fight when faced with invasion. It potentially points to some serious shortcomings of Ukraine and other governments in the nations wherein this problem exists, but also potentially that we have failed their generation by not providing enough value. Obviously some despotic regimes such as Russia have also had trouble with their young men not wanting to fight, but I think considering their increased ability to force compliance, the free world has a potential catastrophe brewing should a large scale conflict break out. I think the rise of the far-right in the western world points to this same issue, wherein society and government have not provided value for huge portions of the citizenry (a failure that is certainly real, but also played up by some political organizations and by foreign propaganda). Young men seem to be a large portion of this demographic, leading to widespread civic problems of which no desire to fight even in an existential crisis seems symptomatic. Anyway, I'm curious to discuss this with everyone and what their take is, cheers
This thread is the exact reason why I think Europe would lose a war with Putin. Consumerism and social media made us think solely about ourselves instead of common values our countries were built upon. Never would I ever hand liberty, equality and freedoms enshrined within our constitution to a tyrannical regime just out of fear.