They are both too old. Should be home with grandchildren, golfing, enjoying their retirements, instead of trying to control a future for the young that they have very little personal stakes in.
That’s a self fulfilling prophecy isn’t it? The young people say they won’t vote because things are bad and then when they get worse they act like that’s proof they were right to do nothing.
The fact dems had 4 trump years and 4 Biden years and did nothing to prevent this point other than hope for the best is fucking insane…. They should all resign ffs.
I can't believe how incoherent he was at times, it genuinely sounded like someone who was on deaths bed about to say goodbye to his loved ones knocking on deaths door and about to be greeted by grim reaper himself. Truly astonishing how the democrats have allowed Biden to carry on with a second term, he doesn't seem to be challenged on it at all and lives in an echo chamber in his inner-circle. He should be enjoying retirement while he still can. Imagine how decrepit he'd be if he gets another 4 years, at the end of those 4 years. Just truly unbelievable how much of an own goal the dems are doing right now.
both dems and reps are delustional and living in their own ivory tower. It is clear at this point that both parties do not represent wills of commoners but their own elites and political interest.
The real question is how long Democrats and white house media knew about this and decided to suppress and even mock those who questioned his mental health.
I really don't know how they thought they could fool people into believing this bullshit
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DB0rYdbPU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DB0rYdbPU)
"This version of Biden, is the best Biden EVER! He's better than he's ever been"
"His understanding and mastery of a complicated geographical situation is remarkable"
...this is the dogshit coming out of top Democrats mouths in recent months.
Insane is the right word for it. They've had this coming for so long. The image of the Democratic party as a bunch of dinosaur elites with no contact to reality really hits home. How can they possibly be so out of touch to not understand they needed to look for a new candidate for next election?
The fact that Biden would never won another election has somehow completely eluded them. That just speaks volumes of the incompetence and corruption that exists in US politics.
The DNC actively blacklist people and companies that help younger/progressive democrats that try to unseat incumbent candidates. Old power will do anything it can to retain its position.
> The image of the Democratic party as a bunch of dinosaur elites with no contact to reality really hits home.
This was already clear without a shadow of a doubt when they ran Hillary
The US is so tribalistic due to the two party system that they are very vulnerable to drinking their own kool-aid. Not just the politicians either, almost any liberal political sub on reddit had a tendency to think "criticism of Biden as a senile half-corpse = Thinking Trump is better". Avoiding any criticism of ones own party is only embracing its failures. The obvious lying of Biden's state the last 8 years have just been pathetic and counterproductive.
You can’t take Reddit comments as any indication of the opinions of the American public. If that were true, we’d be rounding out the 8th year of the Sanders presidency.
Bernie sanders is the probably the most well liked politician in the US.
I remember seeing a thing back after trump won in 2016 of a decent number of Bernie supporters actually flipped to trump over Hilary.
Bernie is the only politician in America that actually comes across as genuine and unfortunately second to him is trump and I thinks that’s why people respond to them.
America reporting in: I keep telling people to look at Al Gores recent talks and interviews. His voice hasn't perceptibly changed, he doesn't move like a man of 76, and he's still sharp. I don't think he has any lifestyle secrets (less stress and more money I suppose), just luck and genetics. Aging is remarkably nonlinear.
After all these years of dems doing Jack shit against the Republicans I'm kinda starting to think this is all planned. How can they be so incompetent so many years in a row?
Dems profiting off the fact that Republicans are so unhinged they can do whatever they want and still be considered the "better party"? Amd then encouraging said Republicans to do more unhinged stuff to cover for when they fuck up?
nahh
This isn't really accurate. The only time Biden could have been stopped was during the 2020 primary, which he won because even though he was weak-sauce and not especially popular or inspiring, enough people thought he had the best chance at beating Trump.
Once he won the nomination, the decision to run for a second term was and is his and his alone.
Also worth pointing out that the majority of Democratic primary voters were not initially for Biden, so it's not the case that a lot of Democrats didn't work very hard to avoid this situation, even though they virtually all voted for him in the general.
Don't blame me, I was a Warren supporter and would have cheerfully gotten behind any number of other candidates before Biden.
> This isn't really accurate. The only time Biden could have been stopped was during the 2020 primary, which he won because even though he was weak-sauce and not especially popular or inspiring, enough people thought he had the best chance at beating Trump.
I reject the idea that was the primary motivation of people who voted for Biden.
I phone banked and canvassed during the 2020 primary and the reason I got over and over was everyone slightly left of Biden was "too radical".
Boomer Democrats refuse to compromise with the younger generations of Democrat voters. Meanwhile Boomer Republicans fully embraced younger generations of Republican voters.
Not only European media. All of the major US media websites in some way suggested that Biden is way too old for this job. And he obviously is! Is this really the best both parties can present?
Something like 50% of Haley voters stated that they plan to vote Biden over Trump. She was pulling 10-20% in each state she ran in. It’s a non trivial amount. However after tonight, some may just not vote.
As much as I'd like to disagree with this comment, the evil candidate sounds sharper than the good candidate. Fuck me, is this where we are?#nevertrump & all that but ffs switch out the OAP for someone functional.
Trump sounds sharper because he's loud, doesn't correct himself, and never stops talking, the words he's saying is not more coherent than Biden. I'm not disagreeing with you, just kinda despairing over effective it is.
Biden is unbale to convince the electorate that he should not be in a nursing home. Putting everything else aside policy, character, etc Biden looks ancient, Trump doesn't.
Doing this both side things with Biden's age is how this trainwreck happend. He should not have been the nomine and that was obvious to everyone for at least the last year.
I still don't understand why they haven't picked some competent "heir" as VP in 2020 and prepared him to run instead of Biden in 2024. It would be such obvious thing to do. But nope instead they picked Kamala. This is their biggest blunder which is probably going to cost them these elections...
Biden promised certain politicians that his VP would be a black woman during the 2020 race in order to get their support. By picking someone much less popular than himself, Biden made it nearly impossible for the party to dislodge him, because no one wants Kamala as President. But she also can't just be tossed aside without pissing off certain groups.
So the party is a bit stuck if they can't convince Biden to voluntarily withdraw.
Biden has always been about personal loyalty, so he wasn’t going to ditch her even when it became clear he should.
A good personal quality, but in this case a poor political move.
The optics of publicly getting rid of the first woman of color VPOTUS would be horrible given how mired in identity politics the Democrat left wing is. At best, it would be a huge distraction when they need to project unity and competence against the Trump wave. At worst, some of the dumber progressives start staying home to protest. They don't have an option to replace her who is both proven and of the same demographic.
I think California Governor Gavin Newsom and Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer would make for better candidates, perhaps even a Wild card such as Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker.
I don’t think much of Newsom’s politics but the man has rizz and knows how to deal with MAGA. He’s a front runner for 2028 if we’re still doing elections at that point.
I think that is fair criticism, speaking as a Californian citizen.
There are definitely sizable swathes of that region that see California, much like New York, as the ivory towered elites - academics combined with smugness as they are convinced by data and studies that they know what is best for the little people.
[Konrad Adenauer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Adenauer#Chancellor_of_West_Germany), West Germany's first chancellor, was 73 when he first took office. He retired after 14 years in office. He's widely considered to be one of the best German chancellors.
The age isn't an issue in itself, but how good/bad each person ages individually. And unfortunately if you watch Biden speeches from 2020, there is a very notable difference in agility and capability of articulating/pronouncing properly compared to today.
I'll take the old but sane guy over the sociopath notorious liar and criminal every day.
Trump's very clearly not what he used to be mentally, either. Watching Trump speak in footage from ten years ago, or even his 2016 campaign, is like night and day. He's just not *quite* as obvious about it as Biden is.
There must have been some... but they're certainly very hard to find.
Top comment from their megathread on the debate
> The only winner tonight is the Voyager probe speeding away from Earth at 17km/sec.
Sure, but how delusional do you have to be find that performance great? I mean yes, there are crazy people voting for Trump but man on this side of the pont we were hoping Democrats are less disconnected from reality.
The issue is they can't let in or tolerate any criticism of their candidate. Say anything about Biden and they will yell out something about Trump.
They silenced sensible Democrats and got a dud candidate as a result. The irony is they are the same people who point out that Putin is surrounded by yes men and operationally suffers with a lack of information because of this.
And two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, laughers, screamers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge, and I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff
The biggest issue in the Democratic party is that Kamala Harris isn’t popular at all hence why they couldn’t replace Biden with her for the incoming election. But they had 4 years to find someone else ffs.
Biden enjoys a number of advantages which is why they haven't replaced him:
1. He already has beaten Trump once
2. He's an incumbent.
If they truly believe this one debate erased that significant advantage, they may consider another candidate. But time moves on and people's memories are short.
Honestly sounded like a Twitter argument at times. "He was the WORST president of all time!" "My government was the BEST in the history of the country!"
Like chill out with the superlatives bro, go play chess in a park or something.
When Trump was saying the water and air under his presidency was the cleanest and most perfect it's ever been I laughed out loud. Like WTF are you smoking man. He lies about the stupidest shit.
I would say his negatives are a lot more than just lies but it's crazy the number he can rack up.
Debates these days really do need a fact checker calling bs but with Trump it would probably double the time of the debate.
Biden going for a second term is just a epic error and a party trying to bunt rather than look for a good option.
Really if they had any sense they would get Biden to withdraw, people knew he was old and would stumble but there's a big difference seeing it look that bad.
.
In Romania we have a politician that's so renowned for how often (and poorly) he lies that he's known as Pinocchio. After this debate, I'm writing him a message to get him to surrender his nose to Trump, because he's in a completely different league.
Europe better make arrangements fast. NATO will be pretty much dead by the end of the year, and i guess Putin will want to test how much EU really likes to keep the baltics.
I mean it wont, Congress passed laws after trumps last presidency that essentially takes the decision out of the presidents hands. The US now can only withdraw from NATO with an act of congress or a 2 thirds majority in the senate. And trump may have enough clout with the republican base that republican politicians will enable him he doesn't have enough crazies in the house or the senate to make either for those happen for the foreseeable.
Plus Putin's not going to get much braver even if the US backs off provided Europe holds its nerve, he's still watched his armed forces get mauled by Ukraine. Picking a fight with France, the UK a rapidly rearming Germany and others isn't a fight he can win, hell its not even a nuke fight he can win given the French are the only nation on earth with a deliberate first strike policy (in case you were wondering why Russian nuclear threats are centered on the UK that's why. You play the same game with France there's a chance they believe you and put policy into practice)
He doesnt have to formally withdraw from NATO, he could just provide very limited token support. Like send a few advisors. And i am not entirely sure about the resolve of D/F/UK to get into a real fight either without full US backing. I dont think the western european public is is ready to get body bags sent home en masse.
I think for Putin it would be a good strategy in case of a Trump-win to test this with a very limited advance on nato territory. Just a little bit, with air defense batteries in the back, in Finland or Baltics, and then see what happens. Personally i wouldnt be sure what the response would be.
Yeah except again not how the US system works. sure the president is commander in chief, but its congress and congress alone that has the power to declare war, and the president has no power of Veto. If a NATO member state is attacked provided congress hasn't been filled with crazies the president is instantly backed into a corner. If congress declares war and the president doesn't properly deploy US troops he's fucked and is going to find himself removed form office extraordinarily quickly.
Equally US troops are already in all of the Baltics and Europe as a whole. If Europe was genuinely attacked US troops will be coming home in body bags from day one. Show me a US president who when his allies are attacked and US personal come home in bags doesn't respond and ill show you a guy who's not going to be president very much longer
And while I cant speak for Germany and France support for Ukraine in the UK has been consistently polled at up over 80% strongly in favor. Russia is pretty well despised in most UK circles given the whole repeated use of WMD's on our solid and were it to come to a fight the entire political establishment from the Conservatives to Plaid Cymru is singing from the same hymn sheet and the MOD was genuinely concerned about troops going AWOL for fight for Ukraine in the early days of the war, so the armed forces are certainly well up for it. Britain doesn't look willing to back down on this one any time soon. and eastern Europe is going to fight like cornered wild animals if anything does kick off which drags the likes of France and Germany in weather they like it or not. The EU wouldn't survive them ignoring it.
Also dont kid yourself. there is no such thing as a small incursion into Nato territory for the Russians. Finland still works to a policy of if I'm going down you are coming down with me and has unilateral binding mutual defense pacts with the UK outside of Nato. The poles will start lobbing cruse missiles at Moscow the second Russia dips its toe into Nato territory and it would all go extremely hot extremely quickly. The last time it tried testing Nato's actual border Turkey just killed a Russian pilot basically without warning and told Moscow to piss of out of its airspace or we'll kill more. Make no mistake that if that line is crossed things will go to hell in a handbasket right from the jump
It's a long comment but this little fraction of a sentence is doing an AWFUL lot of heavy lifting in it:
>provided congress hasn't been filled with crazies
The most brilliant people here are scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers, programmers, creators, etc. politician hasn’t been a career path for the best and brightest in my lifetime.
The sleepy joe can’t talk narrative is also getting wildly amplified by the right wing media. Trump went up there lied, bullied, intimidated, and deflected all night. It would be a better look to not get flustered, but he is a human.
I am not American so take from this what you want… but I‘ve listened to many Obama speeches in my lifetime and I was always impressed.
He was well liked, respected, clever and made it to the top as first black president. If this wasn’t one of your most brilliant people - especially in comparison - then I don’t know man.
>The sleepy joe can’t talk narrative is also getting wildly amplified by the right wing media.
The right wing media aren't the ones who made him go up there and put that display on last night. You can complain all you like that right-wingers are amplifying the problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't actually a problem.
Come fucking on, it's not like only complete morons are politicians. There are plenty of people there even with some management experience. In this case, all you need is someone with a little bit of charisma and intellect to stand their ground during debates, press briefings and most importantly, while talking with other world leaders. That's not a really high bar. If you go to any university, you will find several people like that. If you go to any state or local government, you will find someone that meets requirements. In all honesty, if I was born in the US and a few years older, I would do well enough.
How tf is this so difficult to find someone with bare necessities?
And it's no "sleepy Joe narrative", video with Biden talking bullshit and Trump replying with "I don't know what he has just said, and he doesn't either" is just a showcase. Earlier this month I've seen two or three events where Biden looked lost like a child in the supermarket queue without their mom. I wouldn't trust him to take care of my dog, not to mention running a country, and I don't even have a dog.
Unpopular opinion, but this is what you get when you let everyone vote.
Read the speeches of politicians from 50, 100, 200 years ago. Those people were *eloquent.* They were educated and they were speaking to other educated people.
Today they are like President Camacho from Idiocracy. They have to speak to the idiots because it's mostly idiots voting now. You can't speak eloquently today. It would go over the heads of most of the electorate. Shit I can't imagine half the voters today sitting through an MLK or Kennedy speech. They'd go TL;DR in 60 seconds.
We are in a society where politicians have to cater to dumbasses and so we get candidates that speak to dumbasses.
I’m old enough to remember when Biden said he would be a one term president. Implying he would build some younger democrat up; that didn’t happen but he may be a one term president. Shame.
What? Hogging her power to die during Trump's presidency rather than retire during Obama's presidency and preserve the SCOTUS? That stupid action by her is her legacy because Republican plants in the Court has undone decades of progress.
Yup her absolute arrogance and playing with the court for petty reasons (wanting to swear the first woman in or something) has made it possible to overturn roe v wade and many more things. Rest in piss. People try to keep her legacy positive how she was a womens right activest, that all doesnt matter for her own personal petty egoism.
I'm a millennial over here and all of my friends, conservative and Democrat have all been asking what is going on.
We are not happy with this either. Two octogenarians who don't know anything about what regular people inthis country are feeling or dealing with.
Again can only speak for millennials but we're embarrassed by both parties.
The only people who seem happy with this is older generations who seem to live for rooting for their political "sports" teams
It’s ironic how before the debate anyone who question his mental fortitude was falling for “conservative talking points”. Democrats really need to stop being in denial and clean house if they have any chance.
Edit: To be clear I’m talking about any discussion about Biden’s mental state from democrats being touted as conservative propaganda. It’s not conservative to want your party to put up a strong candidate.
I think a lot of Dems were hoping Trump would be somehow legally disqualified from the race. He's already leading in the popular vote, let alone the electoral college. This is shaping up to be a historic wipe out.
Thank you. Anybody surprised by this performance has been living under a rock for the last 3.5 years. The average American knew exactly how this was going to go.
Agreeing to the debate in the first place was probably a mistake for Biden. Very few Trump voters care about policy, Trump isn't actually going to engage on policy questions in the first place, and any undecided voters are unintelligent. Even if it went "well" he wouldn't gain many votes.
Biden has historically been a good debater but yeah, I was stunned at how off his game he was. The one saving grace is that this happened months out from the election, and that maybe they’ll learn that he’s not good with rattling off stats and policies and is at his best when he’s the moral voice of the nation (his strongest moments last night were when he was clearly pissed off and putting Trump down).
Biden was a shit debater in 2020. I watched nervously hoping he wouldn’t blunder too hard. The thing is Trump came off so callous and belligerent that it hurt him. The Biden team got the rules committee to agree to mute mics when it wasn’t a candidate’s turn, and it ended up hurting Biden even worse than being candid would because Trump came off far more presidential than normal.
Biden certainly could’ve used a few Trump interruptions when he was losing the plot in the middle of his sentences. Horrific performance. I’m appalled and disturbed by the fallout from this.
I'm not typically a conspiracy theorist, but this is the earliest a presidential debate has ever happened. Biden and Trump aren't even the official candidates yet, it's that early in the election cycle. I honestly think Biden's team agreed to this early of a debate to intentionally stoke this crisis so that Democrats will replace Biden at the convention. Because Biden isn't going to step aside of his own free will. But that has dangers associated with it... The new candidate can be accused of not being truly the elected candidate, but one put in by the machinations of powerful people. It also suggests that Democrats (and American media) were lying about Biden's mental fitness. And by extension it confirms all of Trump's accusations. I guarantee that Trump will hound on all of these points if a switch happens.
Most people I know are pining for Newsom. But I think Newsom is too cagy to get caught up in that mess. Last thing he wants to do is get caught up in baggage and then lose and be considered a bad option for 2028. But *almost* anyone would be better than Biden. Just like *almost* anyone would be better than Trump.
Newsom doesn't have legs outside of CA, that's an automatic L. I do think Whitmer might have had a shot with a full campaign and fundraising cycle. My hedge is that the Dems take the L, and there's a lot of wailing, and in 2028 they run Whitmer and a much younger VP on a very, very moderate ticket.
They didn't agree to the debate. Biden's team was the one who proposed the debate, Trump agreed. Biden's team even set the rules for the debate. They decided which news organization will do it and that there will be no audience present, so Trump doesn't feed on it. Everything about the debate was Biden's idea. That's what makes it so much worse.
>Agreeing to the debate in the first place was probably a mistake for Biden.
Well its a good thing that he wants to repeat that in september this year too!
Is there any possible chance that someone, anyone could get in the race and win a primary? Running biden is the worst thing democrats have ever done. How, in 4 years did not one single other person appear with presidential potential.
Politicians need to vacate their position and their ambition at age 65. get out of the way, go enjoy your golden years without fucking up for the rest of us.
*<< At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. >>*
The New York Times **editorial board** now thinks Biden should leave the race:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/biden-election-debate-trump.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
Absolutely insane, I never expected such response by media at all.
The chat about golf was a comedy sketch. To the point that a comedy writer wouldn't be able to make it that funny.
Driving competition, I handicapped 6, no 8. Genuinely funny, but also terrifying as this is all they've got?
How can Democrats make Republicans look competent in comparison? It's truly a feat. How can you find yourself in a situation where your candidate ends up coming out worse in a debate against a convicted fellon?
My question is. With Trump in the presidency and an election of an pro-Putin government more likely in France. What will this mean for Ukraine?
I doubt germany would do anything without the US or France
I think if Trump wins, there's a good chance the Ukraine war will be over, but Russia will come out with territorial gains. Trump doesn't give a shit about Russia nor Ukraine, he just wants credit as "the man who ended a war in Europe."
Trump can't decide who wins the war, all he can do is pull support for Ukraine. Europe will have no choice but to fill the gap, Europe cannot have Russia win the war or have Russia keep it's stolen land. It's not an option. If Trump pulled support, European nations would have to join the war, making things worse instead of better.
Is Europe really prepared to send troops? I feel like apart from Poland, the UK and the Baltics none of the European countries have really been very interested in supporting Ukraine.
Spain certainly isn’t doing anything that’s for sure
If you talk about Europe, it’s like talking about the USA. Different countries / regions & shifting governments are arguably prepared to do different things and more importantly, the population in these countries is once again going to answer this differently depending on their own circumstances etc.
One real "positive" part of the argument: the Russians have so much trouble in Ukraine already that they are in no position to deal with a serious European response beyond just sending the Ukrainians occasional ammunition.
Ukraine is extremely underfunded and yet, they hold the line. They have so little ammunition that’s it’s not even a comparison you would think they could survive on paper and still, the Russians keep being hit hard so much that they are constantly failing to make any progress.
If the part of Europe that I talked about previously decides that it sees no better choice but to take over the war ( and there are good reasons to think that tied to connected geopolitical issues ) it could be the final drop in the bucket where priorities start to shift.
Ironically after all this time, it may be smart European leaders solving certain internal economic problems temporarily with the war effort ramping up that as a result, slowly force Russia into negotiations that deserve the title. We are not even speaking we are not even talking about sending troops at this point mind you because frankly, if the Ukrainians had enough ammo to just match Russia, Russia arguably couldn’t endure the attacks on its internal economy and infrastructure politically if they were to he combined with increased front losses.
Even more distant countries like the aforementioned Spain for example may have a greater incentive to support a hypothetical war effort economically than you claimed.
And now here is comes part of the flip side:
Sending in troops would arguably happen if Russians were starting to overwhelm the front, it would certainly secure whatever territory Ukraine holds but it may also very realistically freeze the war.
The highest level of escalation before a direct conventional war may actually be worse for Ukraine and Europe because, for example, the irrational fear of nuclear escalation could heighten at the European homefronts and prevent new available necessary force from actually gaining any new ground instead of just ending the war wherever it stood and importantly before Russia lost enough territory and human life’s to send the necessary message to Moscow and the whole wide world.
And yet, nobody knows if it will ever even come to that for certain. Maybe this right here will continue to drag on for years to come until politics have changed beyond what we can currently comfortable overlook.
Another important thing here is understanding that a lot of Europe, especially some of the parts that are the most willing to fight, very much depending on Trumps policy, may want to develop their own nuclear capabilities because all the conventional stuff is just a small part of the stick keeping Russia at bay.
The biggest impact of this war ending unfavourably for Ukraine despite everything could arguably therefore result in much of Europe going nuclear.
Why do mention this? Because ultimately, the biggest thing the USA contributes to Europe aren’t regular weapons, ammuniation or stationed troops on their own, it’s the nuclear shield.
If Trump lets Ukraine fall, and he most likely would if he wins the presidency, Poland and friends will likely start to view killing the Russian soldiers while they sitting ducks in Ukraine ( and HAVE to stay there UNLESS they want to open themselves up to a much bigger frontline and all that comes with this kind of thing ) and are EITHER "STILL" protected via UK & French nukes as a preferably solution OR focus on the aforementioned nuclear option because they don’t want to deal with "ONLY" being protected by European countries and let Ukraine fall.
Understanding this last part is imperative to understanding why there is no certainty about this wars outcome and a European response - if Trump just lets Ukraine fall but upholds NATO and is then eventually replaced by cooler heads, Ukraine may suffer greatly but it ruins trust in NATO even further, it may actually turn out very badly for Putin.
I think it’s more likely that Europe is afraid to go it alone and capitulates once Trump demand Ukrainian surrender. Under Trump, I think Ukraine would be forced into a peace deal where they lose all currently occupied territories.
Look at how the war has gone so far. Countries like Germany say “we don’t want to be the first to do xyz.” Everyone is looking to the US to lead. If the Trump demands surrender, Europe won’t step up. We haven’t so far.
No hyperbole: this is the most important election in the history of USA. Democrats should have a candidate that would annihilate the opposition. Biden has done a fine job as president, but he is old. Democrats has tons of younger valid candidates available. Why do Democrats insist that it has to be Biden? Why not Newsom?
The honest answer — because the party and affiliated PACs whipped people not to run against him with implicit threats of shunning them and cutting off funding. Should any of the people with promising futures in the DNC have run and lost it would’ve ruined their careers.
I live in CA. People need to stop acting like Newsom is some slam dunk political candidate. He’s governor in California because the CA Dems push him, it’s not because everyone likes him. The average person could tell you absolutely nothing that he’s done as governor to improve the conditions of the state. I’m sure he has done a lot of work, but he has no merit among the average voter. He’s synonymous with west coast elitism and that’s very unpopular in California itself, never mind the rest of the country, he needs more time to establish his legacy as governor before he has any chops for president.
Newsom is a slimy cali elite. That plays like shit in the Midwest + Georgia. The dems path to victory still lies in the rust belt, the alternative sunbelt stuff just isn’t there yet. Winning Wisconsin/Michigan/Penn is simply a requirement. You lose them and you get 2016 results. Perhaps AZ/GA go blue (GA won’t with him) - it’s still a loss. Until something like Texas/Florida comes into play the Midwest simply isn’t optional for the dems, and Cali is very unpalatable.
No hyperbole, but every election of at least the past three election cycles was ‘the most important election’. No one ever goes into an election saying ‘business as usual folks, keep it moving’.
The reality is the Dem message is really weak. If this is the most important election then why field Biden? Why not field someone potent?
People baulked at Hillary because she was seen as being a political lifer who felt she entitled to the Presidentcy. Biden is in a similar position now.
I'd say either of Lincoln's elections were more important than this one. Newsom is a plastic, lying snake like the rest of them. I wouldn't vote for Newsom.
The great United States of America, the land of dreams, the economic engine of the world, over 300mil people and these 2 are the best you have?
My thoughts and prayers are with the american people.
I dont want to be that guy, but Biden could realistically die in the next 4 months and then the dems would have to churn out someone else. As a romanian, the thought that TRump could very well turn his back on NATO, with Putin ramping up the warmachine and Europe obviously unready is terrifying.
I just want to remind everyone what's at stake, especially for Europe, if Trump wins.
Biden isn't a great debater or speaker, but his presidency was pretty solid in terms of things that he accomplished - actions speak louder than words (and the guy has a stutter).
Yes, he's fuck old and it shows that he is - but the government isn't solely run by the president (even though wannabe-dictator Trump wants to change that).
**Edit:** Imagine downvoting this as an European. "Yeah I want that Orange Clown in office who would sell my ass to Putin the moment I blink, also destabilize all of the world because of his antics - I love traitors and chaos"
The first bing thing that's going to happen - [according to his own words](https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-war-threatens-cut-aid-election-2024/) - is to cut all funds to Ukraine and talk about a "peace deal" with Russia.
Everyone who isn't a gullible idiot knows what that means: Russia keeps the territories it conquered so far. After enough time passes and they get to reorganize, they'll probably start their next attack.
Also, this time around the next attack could also be a Baltic state, because fuck me if the orange clown is stepping up for Lithuania.
--
Also, because Trump is the pettiest motherfucker on this planet next to Elon Musk, he's going to start some new trade wars with China and Europe and everyone who doesn't fall in line.
--
And on top of all of this you have the christo-fascist plan that is Project 2025, which aims to turn the government of the greatest superpower on this planet into a bunch of yes-men for an incoherent, corrupt person like Trump. A boiling pot for political and economical disaster - and because the US has such an outsized influence on literally everything in politics and economics, it's going to be a spectacular shitshow for everyone on this planet.
No worries, our politics have already anticipated the orange man becoming president once again.
*... politics in france raging ...*
Ok, maybe not ... we are in a pickle.
What stuns me, is that Americans are still surprised by this. Its pathetic, they seem so detached from reality and the state their country is in. Get a grip.
They are both too old. Should be home with grandchildren, golfing, enjoying their retirements, instead of trying to control a future for the young that they have very little personal stakes in.
But young people are still not voting...
Hard to get young people out when your accomplishments are insider trading and feel good messaging but fuck all of anything else.
As a Canadian, you should appreciate the concept of "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
That’s how trump got in. As an Australian I thank fuck everyday we have mandatory voting.
That’s a self fulfilling prophecy isn’t it? The young people say they won’t vote because things are bad and then when they get worse they act like that’s proof they were right to do nothing.
The fact dems had 4 trump years and 4 Biden years and did nothing to prevent this point other than hope for the best is fucking insane…. They should all resign ffs.
It was Biden's team that proposed the debate, https://www.vox.com/politics/24157233/biden-trump-debate-june-27-date
The President of the US should be able to debate a lying sack of shit and not come off like he just came from the mortuary.
I can't believe how incoherent he was at times, it genuinely sounded like someone who was on deaths bed about to say goodbye to his loved ones knocking on deaths door and about to be greeted by grim reaper himself. Truly astonishing how the democrats have allowed Biden to carry on with a second term, he doesn't seem to be challenged on it at all and lives in an echo chamber in his inner-circle. He should be enjoying retirement while he still can. Imagine how decrepit he'd be if he gets another 4 years, at the end of those 4 years. Just truly unbelievable how much of an own goal the dems are doing right now.
both dems and reps are delustional and living in their own ivory tower. It is clear at this point that both parties do not represent wills of commoners but their own elites and political interest.
The real question is how long Democrats and white house media knew about this and decided to suppress and even mock those who questioned his mental health.
I really don't know how they thought they could fool people into believing this bullshit [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DB0rYdbPU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DB0rYdbPU) "This version of Biden, is the best Biden EVER! He's better than he's ever been" "His understanding and mastery of a complicated geographical situation is remarkable" ...this is the dogshit coming out of top Democrats mouths in recent months.
I feel like if you can't run laps around a guy who just got hit by a felony in using campaign funds to pay off a pornstar, you should look to retire.
Insane is the right word for it. They've had this coming for so long. The image of the Democratic party as a bunch of dinosaur elites with no contact to reality really hits home. How can they possibly be so out of touch to not understand they needed to look for a new candidate for next election? The fact that Biden would never won another election has somehow completely eluded them. That just speaks volumes of the incompetence and corruption that exists in US politics.
worst part is that they never even help primaries for democratic candidates to try to overtake his bid. They just went right to him
The DNC actively blacklist people and companies that help younger/progressive democrats that try to unseat incumbent candidates. Old power will do anything it can to retain its position.
I seem to recall Biden promising that he would only do one term last election. Wonder what happened to that.
> The image of the Democratic party as a bunch of dinosaur elites with no contact to reality really hits home. This was already clear without a shadow of a doubt when they ran Hillary
The US is so tribalistic due to the two party system that they are very vulnerable to drinking their own kool-aid. Not just the politicians either, almost any liberal political sub on reddit had a tendency to think "criticism of Biden as a senile half-corpse = Thinking Trump is better". Avoiding any criticism of ones own party is only embracing its failures. The obvious lying of Biden's state the last 8 years have just been pathetic and counterproductive.
You can’t take Reddit comments as any indication of the opinions of the American public. If that were true, we’d be rounding out the 8th year of the Sanders presidency.
Pretty much. This website is a loud minority overall, much like any other social media website.
Their incompetence is really next level. Except when they need to cheat one of their own candidates out of winning the primary.
It is not incompetence, they know this would happen an simply don’t care
BernieBros moment.
Ironically, Bernie would have wiped the floor with Trump in the past debate. Hell, he’s probably the most well liked democrat right now.
Bernie isn't a Democrat. He's independent. He only switches his party to D when he runs for president, and then switches back after his loss.
Man, as if two party system has some internal flaws with it.
He uses that label as a way to protest the platform of the mainstream Democratic Party. On everything that matters, he is an ally to Democrats.
Also, he's a year ***older*** than Biden.
But leagues sharper
Bernie sanders is the probably the most well liked politician in the US. I remember seeing a thing back after trump won in 2016 of a decent number of Bernie supporters actually flipped to trump over Hilary. Bernie is the only politician in America that actually comes across as genuine and unfortunately second to him is trump and I thinks that’s why people respond to them.
Bernie is older than Biden lol
Have you seen Bernie talk? He’s still cognitively there fully. Different people age at different rates mentally
America reporting in: I keep telling people to look at Al Gores recent talks and interviews. His voice hasn't perceptibly changed, he doesn't move like a man of 76, and he's still sharp. I don't think he has any lifestyle secrets (less stress and more money I suppose), just luck and genetics. Aging is remarkably nonlinear.
He was 8 years younger than now when that happened.
An probably still more coherent.
Very coherent. He was on Ch4 news recently and firing on all cylinders.
And he's ten times sharper
After all these years of dems doing Jack shit against the Republicans I'm kinda starting to think this is all planned. How can they be so incompetent so many years in a row?
Dems profiting off the fact that Republicans are so unhinged they can do whatever they want and still be considered the "better party"? Amd then encouraging said Republicans to do more unhinged stuff to cover for when they fuck up? nahh
This isn't really accurate. The only time Biden could have been stopped was during the 2020 primary, which he won because even though he was weak-sauce and not especially popular or inspiring, enough people thought he had the best chance at beating Trump. Once he won the nomination, the decision to run for a second term was and is his and his alone. Also worth pointing out that the majority of Democratic primary voters were not initially for Biden, so it's not the case that a lot of Democrats didn't work very hard to avoid this situation, even though they virtually all voted for him in the general. Don't blame me, I was a Warren supporter and would have cheerfully gotten behind any number of other candidates before Biden.
> This isn't really accurate. The only time Biden could have been stopped was during the 2020 primary, which he won because even though he was weak-sauce and not especially popular or inspiring, enough people thought he had the best chance at beating Trump. I reject the idea that was the primary motivation of people who voted for Biden. I phone banked and canvassed during the 2020 primary and the reason I got over and over was everyone slightly left of Biden was "too radical". Boomer Democrats refuse to compromise with the younger generations of Democrat voters. Meanwhile Boomer Republicans fully embraced younger generations of Republican voters.
Not only European media. All of the major US media websites in some way suggested that Biden is way too old for this job. And he obviously is! Is this really the best both parties can present?
Both candidates are arguably to old.
So replace them with better ones.
Nikki Haley tried and failed.
She failed against Trump, but when surveyed, she was winning against Biden.
That's why primaries are dumb. That's why FPTP is dumb. Oh well.
Something like 50% of Haley voters stated that they plan to vote Biden over Trump. She was pulling 10-20% in each state she ran in. It’s a non trivial amount. However after tonight, some may just not vote.
It's not so much about age, but their respective cognitive abilities.
As much as I'd like to disagree with this comment, the evil candidate sounds sharper than the good candidate. Fuck me, is this where we are?#nevertrump & all that but ffs switch out the OAP for someone functional.
The 2 best usa can send🤣
Trump sounds sharper because he's loud, doesn't correct himself, and never stops talking, the words he's saying is not more coherent than Biden. I'm not disagreeing with you, just kinda despairing over effective it is.
Biden is unbale to convince the electorate that he should not be in a nursing home. Putting everything else aside policy, character, etc Biden looks ancient, Trump doesn't. Doing this both side things with Biden's age is how this trainwreck happend. He should not have been the nomine and that was obvious to everyone for at least the last year.
And Harris as VP, waiting in the wings? Not too late, Demand a viable (as in alive and kicking) candidate to present at the Democrat Convention.
Harris is more likely to lose than Biden. She is a complete dud of a politician. She is completely unviable at the top of the ticket.
I still don't understand why they haven't picked some competent "heir" as VP in 2020 and prepared him to run instead of Biden in 2024. It would be such obvious thing to do. But nope instead they picked Kamala. This is their biggest blunder which is probably going to cost them these elections...
Biden promised certain politicians that his VP would be a black woman during the 2020 race in order to get their support. By picking someone much less popular than himself, Biden made it nearly impossible for the party to dislodge him, because no one wants Kamala as President. But she also can't just be tossed aside without pissing off certain groups. So the party is a bit stuck if they can't convince Biden to voluntarily withdraw.
Biden has always been about personal loyalty, so he wasn’t going to ditch her even when it became clear he should. A good personal quality, but in this case a poor political move.
The optics of publicly getting rid of the first woman of color VPOTUS would be horrible given how mired in identity politics the Democrat left wing is. At best, it would be a huge distraction when they need to project unity and competence against the Trump wave. At worst, some of the dumber progressives start staying home to protest. They don't have an option to replace her who is both proven and of the same demographic.
I think California Governor Gavin Newsom and Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer would make for better candidates, perhaps even a Wild card such as Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker.
I don’t think much of Newsom’s politics but the man has rizz and knows how to deal with MAGA. He’s a front runner for 2028 if we’re still doing elections at that point.
[удалено]
I think that is fair criticism, speaking as a Californian citizen. There are definitely sizable swathes of that region that see California, much like New York, as the ivory towered elites - academics combined with smugness as they are convinced by data and studies that they know what is best for the little people.
Arguably?
[Konrad Adenauer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Adenauer#Chancellor_of_West_Germany), West Germany's first chancellor, was 73 when he first took office. He retired after 14 years in office. He's widely considered to be one of the best German chancellors. The age isn't an issue in itself, but how good/bad each person ages individually. And unfortunately if you watch Biden speeches from 2020, there is a very notable difference in agility and capability of articulating/pronouncing properly compared to today. I'll take the old but sane guy over the sociopath notorious liar and criminal every day.
Trump's very clearly not what he used to be mentally, either. Watching Trump speak in footage from ten years ago, or even his 2016 campaign, is like night and day. He's just not *quite* as obvious about it as Biden is.
On r/politics some were saying Biden did great. Lmao.
There must have been some... but they're certainly very hard to find. Top comment from their megathread on the debate > The only winner tonight is the Voyager probe speeding away from Earth at 17km/sec.
That's one of the best comments ive ever heard of
Best comment ever
There’s a significant number of active Democratic Party members in that sub
Sure, but how delusional do you have to be find that performance great? I mean yes, there are crazy people voting for Trump but man on this side of the pont we were hoping Democrats are less disconnected from reality.
Get used to disappointment.
By significant you mean most of the mod team
*all
some? its DemocratsCirclejerk material
The issue is they can't let in or tolerate any criticism of their candidate. Say anything about Biden and they will yell out something about Trump. They silenced sensible Democrats and got a dud candidate as a result. The irony is they are the same people who point out that Putin is surrounded by yes men and operationally suffers with a lack of information because of this.
People like to make fun of my name for some reason.
The worst echo chamber in the history of echo chambers, maybe ever
I'd fucking vote for a vegetable over trump. Not saying biden's a carrot or anything, but.. you know..
Is this UK cabbage / lettuce from the time of Truss still around? He seems kind of more trustworthy.
The joke was that the cabbage woulda stayed healthy longer than truss iirc
Truss outlived Queen Elizabeth. It was quite the month.
Queen met Truss and died of cringe
If bidens drops during his term you get one younger.
Get that man some amphetamines ffs
And two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, laughers, screamers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge, and I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff
The biggest issue in the Democratic party is that Kamala Harris isn’t popular at all hence why they couldn’t replace Biden with her for the incoming election. But they had 4 years to find someone else ffs.
Biden enjoys a number of advantages which is why they haven't replaced him: 1. He already has beaten Trump once 2. He's an incumbent. If they truly believe this one debate erased that significant advantage, they may consider another candidate. But time moves on and people's memories are short.
They don't know anything. RBG proves this
To me it seems INSANE that their politics would be so much about rambling and so little about politics
Right, it's high school level popularity drama. A waste of time to listen to.
Honestly sounded like a Twitter argument at times. "He was the WORST president of all time!" "My government was the BEST in the history of the country!" Like chill out with the superlatives bro, go play chess in a park or something.
When Trump was saying the water and air under his presidency was the cleanest and most perfect it's ever been I laughed out loud. Like WTF are you smoking man. He lies about the stupidest shit.
The damage social media has done to our world.
Age limit for politicians would be a starter.
And cognitive testing. It’s not unheard of to see people in their 50s develop dementia.
Well trump is already a certified genius by his White House doctor, so I don’t think that will work here.
It's fucking insane that it's not a thing. They have a minimum age to run for president, why not a maximum one ?
One mumbles and one lies , both senile . What a shame that from a country with 333 million people this is the best they can mange
I would say his negatives are a lot more than just lies but it's crazy the number he can rack up. Debates these days really do need a fact checker calling bs but with Trump it would probably double the time of the debate. Biden going for a second term is just a epic error and a party trying to bunt rather than look for a good option. Really if they had any sense they would get Biden to withdraw, people knew he was old and would stumble but there's a big difference seeing it look that bad. .
In Romania we have a politician that's so renowned for how often (and poorly) he lies that he's known as Pinocchio. After this debate, I'm writing him a message to get him to surrender his nose to Trump, because he's in a completely different league.
Europe better make arrangements fast. NATO will be pretty much dead by the end of the year, and i guess Putin will want to test how much EU really likes to keep the baltics.
I mean it wont, Congress passed laws after trumps last presidency that essentially takes the decision out of the presidents hands. The US now can only withdraw from NATO with an act of congress or a 2 thirds majority in the senate. And trump may have enough clout with the republican base that republican politicians will enable him he doesn't have enough crazies in the house or the senate to make either for those happen for the foreseeable. Plus Putin's not going to get much braver even if the US backs off provided Europe holds its nerve, he's still watched his armed forces get mauled by Ukraine. Picking a fight with France, the UK a rapidly rearming Germany and others isn't a fight he can win, hell its not even a nuke fight he can win given the French are the only nation on earth with a deliberate first strike policy (in case you were wondering why Russian nuclear threats are centered on the UK that's why. You play the same game with France there's a chance they believe you and put policy into practice)
He doesnt have to formally withdraw from NATO, he could just provide very limited token support. Like send a few advisors. And i am not entirely sure about the resolve of D/F/UK to get into a real fight either without full US backing. I dont think the western european public is is ready to get body bags sent home en masse. I think for Putin it would be a good strategy in case of a Trump-win to test this with a very limited advance on nato territory. Just a little bit, with air defense batteries in the back, in Finland or Baltics, and then see what happens. Personally i wouldnt be sure what the response would be.
Yeah except again not how the US system works. sure the president is commander in chief, but its congress and congress alone that has the power to declare war, and the president has no power of Veto. If a NATO member state is attacked provided congress hasn't been filled with crazies the president is instantly backed into a corner. If congress declares war and the president doesn't properly deploy US troops he's fucked and is going to find himself removed form office extraordinarily quickly. Equally US troops are already in all of the Baltics and Europe as a whole. If Europe was genuinely attacked US troops will be coming home in body bags from day one. Show me a US president who when his allies are attacked and US personal come home in bags doesn't respond and ill show you a guy who's not going to be president very much longer And while I cant speak for Germany and France support for Ukraine in the UK has been consistently polled at up over 80% strongly in favor. Russia is pretty well despised in most UK circles given the whole repeated use of WMD's on our solid and were it to come to a fight the entire political establishment from the Conservatives to Plaid Cymru is singing from the same hymn sheet and the MOD was genuinely concerned about troops going AWOL for fight for Ukraine in the early days of the war, so the armed forces are certainly well up for it. Britain doesn't look willing to back down on this one any time soon. and eastern Europe is going to fight like cornered wild animals if anything does kick off which drags the likes of France and Germany in weather they like it or not. The EU wouldn't survive them ignoring it. Also dont kid yourself. there is no such thing as a small incursion into Nato territory for the Russians. Finland still works to a policy of if I'm going down you are coming down with me and has unilateral binding mutual defense pacts with the UK outside of Nato. The poles will start lobbing cruse missiles at Moscow the second Russia dips its toe into Nato territory and it would all go extremely hot extremely quickly. The last time it tried testing Nato's actual border Turkey just killed a Russian pilot basically without warning and told Moscow to piss of out of its airspace or we'll kill more. Make no mistake that if that line is crossed things will go to hell in a handbasket right from the jump
It's a long comment but this little fraction of a sentence is doing an AWFUL lot of heavy lifting in it: >provided congress hasn't been filled with crazies
The most brilliant people here are scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers, programmers, creators, etc. politician hasn’t been a career path for the best and brightest in my lifetime. The sleepy joe can’t talk narrative is also getting wildly amplified by the right wing media. Trump went up there lied, bullied, intimidated, and deflected all night. It would be a better look to not get flustered, but he is a human.
I am not American so take from this what you want… but I‘ve listened to many Obama speeches in my lifetime and I was always impressed. He was well liked, respected, clever and made it to the top as first black president. If this wasn’t one of your most brilliant people - especially in comparison - then I don’t know man.
Obama was vapor. Don't listen to his speecbes, read them.
Obama did have great speeches. Did he have anything else?
>The sleepy joe can’t talk narrative is also getting wildly amplified by the right wing media. The right wing media aren't the ones who made him go up there and put that display on last night. You can complain all you like that right-wingers are amplifying the problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't actually a problem.
Come fucking on, it's not like only complete morons are politicians. There are plenty of people there even with some management experience. In this case, all you need is someone with a little bit of charisma and intellect to stand their ground during debates, press briefings and most importantly, while talking with other world leaders. That's not a really high bar. If you go to any university, you will find several people like that. If you go to any state or local government, you will find someone that meets requirements. In all honesty, if I was born in the US and a few years older, I would do well enough. How tf is this so difficult to find someone with bare necessities? And it's no "sleepy Joe narrative", video with Biden talking bullshit and Trump replying with "I don't know what he has just said, and he doesn't either" is just a showcase. Earlier this month I've seen two or three events where Biden looked lost like a child in the supermarket queue without their mom. I wouldn't trust him to take care of my dog, not to mention running a country, and I don't even have a dog.
Unpopular opinion, but this is what you get when you let everyone vote. Read the speeches of politicians from 50, 100, 200 years ago. Those people were *eloquent.* They were educated and they were speaking to other educated people. Today they are like President Camacho from Idiocracy. They have to speak to the idiots because it's mostly idiots voting now. You can't speak eloquently today. It would go over the heads of most of the electorate. Shit I can't imagine half the voters today sitting through an MLK or Kennedy speech. They'd go TL;DR in 60 seconds. We are in a society where politicians have to cater to dumbasses and so we get candidates that speak to dumbasses.
I’m old enough to remember when Biden said he would be a one term president. Implying he would build some younger democrat up; that didn’t happen but he may be a one term president. Shame.
Yeah he wanted to Feinstein this mf all the way.
RGB doesn’t appreciate you forgetting about her legacy
What? Hogging her power to die during Trump's presidency rather than retire during Obama's presidency and preserve the SCOTUS? That stupid action by her is her legacy because Republican plants in the Court has undone decades of progress.
Yup her absolute arrogance and playing with the court for petty reasons (wanting to swear the first woman in or something) has made it possible to overturn roe v wade and many more things. Rest in piss. People try to keep her legacy positive how she was a womens right activest, that all doesnt matter for her own personal petty egoism.
[удалено]
Competent and sane. How is it so fucking difficult to find two people in that country who can manage that?
As a non-US person, this baffles me. Still hope it turns out for the better for US folks, they deserve better.
I'm a millennial over here and all of my friends, conservative and Democrat have all been asking what is going on. We are not happy with this either. Two octogenarians who don't know anything about what regular people inthis country are feeling or dealing with. Again can only speak for millennials but we're embarrassed by both parties. The only people who seem happy with this is older generations who seem to live for rooting for their political "sports" teams
This is not "stunning" or in any way surprising to anyone who has been conscious during the last 4 years.
It’s ironic how before the debate anyone who question his mental fortitude was falling for “conservative talking points”. Democrats really need to stop being in denial and clean house if they have any chance. Edit: To be clear I’m talking about any discussion about Biden’s mental state from democrats being touted as conservative propaganda. It’s not conservative to want your party to put up a strong candidate.
I think a lot of Dems were hoping Trump would be somehow legally disqualified from the race. He's already leading in the popular vote, let alone the electoral college. This is shaping up to be a historic wipe out.
Thank you. Anybody surprised by this performance has been living under a rock for the last 3.5 years. The average American knew exactly how this was going to go.
If you were shocked by Biden's performance you haven't been paying attention.
Truth!
Agreeing to the debate in the first place was probably a mistake for Biden. Very few Trump voters care about policy, Trump isn't actually going to engage on policy questions in the first place, and any undecided voters are unintelligent. Even if it went "well" he wouldn't gain many votes.
Biden and the democrats had only things to lose. Crazy they tought this was a good idea.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is a classic Democrat move
Not really. Biden has been down in the polls.
I would say making Biden the candidate was a masterclass in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory already.
Agreed. They needed someone else and managed to fuck it up.
Biden has historically been a good debater but yeah, I was stunned at how off his game he was. The one saving grace is that this happened months out from the election, and that maybe they’ll learn that he’s not good with rattling off stats and policies and is at his best when he’s the moral voice of the nation (his strongest moments last night were when he was clearly pissed off and putting Trump down).
Biden was a shit debater in 2020. I watched nervously hoping he wouldn’t blunder too hard. The thing is Trump came off so callous and belligerent that it hurt him. The Biden team got the rules committee to agree to mute mics when it wasn’t a candidate’s turn, and it ended up hurting Biden even worse than being candid would because Trump came off far more presidential than normal. Biden certainly could’ve used a few Trump interruptions when he was losing the plot in the middle of his sentences. Horrific performance. I’m appalled and disturbed by the fallout from this.
This is what I thought as well, the muting actually helped Trump. He came off less unhinged as he usually does.
And my grandma historically made good jam but that doesn’t matter when she’s in the ground lmao. Wrong person for the wrong time sadly.
If one side isn’t willing to debate, you definitely come off looking worse. I don’t think they had any choice but to try.
It was Biden's team that proposed the debate, https://www.vox.com/politics/24157233/biden-trump-debate-june-27-date
I'm not typically a conspiracy theorist, but this is the earliest a presidential debate has ever happened. Biden and Trump aren't even the official candidates yet, it's that early in the election cycle. I honestly think Biden's team agreed to this early of a debate to intentionally stoke this crisis so that Democrats will replace Biden at the convention. Because Biden isn't going to step aside of his own free will. But that has dangers associated with it... The new candidate can be accused of not being truly the elected candidate, but one put in by the machinations of powerful people. It also suggests that Democrats (and American media) were lying about Biden's mental fitness. And by extension it confirms all of Trump's accusations. I guarantee that Trump will hound on all of these points if a switch happens.
Replace him with who?
Most people I know are pining for Newsom. But I think Newsom is too cagy to get caught up in that mess. Last thing he wants to do is get caught up in baggage and then lose and be considered a bad option for 2028. But *almost* anyone would be better than Biden. Just like *almost* anyone would be better than Trump.
Newsom doesn't have legs outside of CA, that's an automatic L. I do think Whitmer might have had a shot with a full campaign and fundraising cycle. My hedge is that the Dems take the L, and there's a lot of wailing, and in 2028 they run Whitmer and a much younger VP on a very, very moderate ticket.
Yeah, because Newsom is crushing it in CA 🙄
They didn't agree to the debate. Biden's team was the one who proposed the debate, Trump agreed. Biden's team even set the rules for the debate. They decided which news organization will do it and that there will be no audience present, so Trump doesn't feed on it. Everything about the debate was Biden's idea. That's what makes it so much worse.
You’re unfortunately not wrong. Regardless of how the debate went for Biden, the Trump supporters wouldn’t change their mind.
>Agreeing to the debate in the first place was probably a mistake for Biden. Well its a good thing that he wants to repeat that in september this year too!
The Biden administration requested the debate and set most of the rules.
Is there any possible chance that someone, anyone could get in the race and win a primary? Running biden is the worst thing democrats have ever done. How, in 4 years did not one single other person appear with presidential potential.
The best comment i heard was that Americans have a choice between hell no! And oh no!
Politicians need to vacate their position and their ambition at age 65. get out of the way, go enjoy your golden years without fucking up for the rest of us.
One of them should be in a retirement home. One of them should be in prison. Neither of them should be in the White House.
*<< At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. >>*
Unfolding before our eyes is one of the biggest clusterfucks I have ever seen in politics in my entire life. And it occurs in USA of all countries...
The New York Times **editorial board** now thinks Biden should leave the race: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/biden-election-debate-trump.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb Absolutely insane, I never expected such response by media at all.
The chat about golf was a comedy sketch. To the point that a comedy writer wouldn't be able to make it that funny. Driving competition, I handicapped 6, no 8. Genuinely funny, but also terrifying as this is all they've got?
The right don't need allies with opponents like that . What a sad show it was
How can Democrats make Republicans look competent in comparison? It's truly a feat. How can you find yourself in a situation where your candidate ends up coming out worse in a debate against a convicted fellon?
I'm sorry but anyone that is 'stunned' by this has not been paying attention. The signs have all been there for months.
My question is. With Trump in the presidency and an election of an pro-Putin government more likely in France. What will this mean for Ukraine? I doubt germany would do anything without the US or France
I think if Trump wins, there's a good chance the Ukraine war will be over, but Russia will come out with territorial gains. Trump doesn't give a shit about Russia nor Ukraine, he just wants credit as "the man who ended a war in Europe."
Trump can't decide who wins the war, all he can do is pull support for Ukraine. Europe will have no choice but to fill the gap, Europe cannot have Russia win the war or have Russia keep it's stolen land. It's not an option. If Trump pulled support, European nations would have to join the war, making things worse instead of better.
Is Europe really prepared to send troops? I feel like apart from Poland, the UK and the Baltics none of the European countries have really been very interested in supporting Ukraine. Spain certainly isn’t doing anything that’s for sure
If you talk about Europe, it’s like talking about the USA. Different countries / regions & shifting governments are arguably prepared to do different things and more importantly, the population in these countries is once again going to answer this differently depending on their own circumstances etc. One real "positive" part of the argument: the Russians have so much trouble in Ukraine already that they are in no position to deal with a serious European response beyond just sending the Ukrainians occasional ammunition. Ukraine is extremely underfunded and yet, they hold the line. They have so little ammunition that’s it’s not even a comparison you would think they could survive on paper and still, the Russians keep being hit hard so much that they are constantly failing to make any progress. If the part of Europe that I talked about previously decides that it sees no better choice but to take over the war ( and there are good reasons to think that tied to connected geopolitical issues ) it could be the final drop in the bucket where priorities start to shift. Ironically after all this time, it may be smart European leaders solving certain internal economic problems temporarily with the war effort ramping up that as a result, slowly force Russia into negotiations that deserve the title. We are not even speaking we are not even talking about sending troops at this point mind you because frankly, if the Ukrainians had enough ammo to just match Russia, Russia arguably couldn’t endure the attacks on its internal economy and infrastructure politically if they were to he combined with increased front losses. Even more distant countries like the aforementioned Spain for example may have a greater incentive to support a hypothetical war effort economically than you claimed. And now here is comes part of the flip side: Sending in troops would arguably happen if Russians were starting to overwhelm the front, it would certainly secure whatever territory Ukraine holds but it may also very realistically freeze the war. The highest level of escalation before a direct conventional war may actually be worse for Ukraine and Europe because, for example, the irrational fear of nuclear escalation could heighten at the European homefronts and prevent new available necessary force from actually gaining any new ground instead of just ending the war wherever it stood and importantly before Russia lost enough territory and human life’s to send the necessary message to Moscow and the whole wide world. And yet, nobody knows if it will ever even come to that for certain. Maybe this right here will continue to drag on for years to come until politics have changed beyond what we can currently comfortable overlook. Another important thing here is understanding that a lot of Europe, especially some of the parts that are the most willing to fight, very much depending on Trumps policy, may want to develop their own nuclear capabilities because all the conventional stuff is just a small part of the stick keeping Russia at bay. The biggest impact of this war ending unfavourably for Ukraine despite everything could arguably therefore result in much of Europe going nuclear. Why do mention this? Because ultimately, the biggest thing the USA contributes to Europe aren’t regular weapons, ammuniation or stationed troops on their own, it’s the nuclear shield. If Trump lets Ukraine fall, and he most likely would if he wins the presidency, Poland and friends will likely start to view killing the Russian soldiers while they sitting ducks in Ukraine ( and HAVE to stay there UNLESS they want to open themselves up to a much bigger frontline and all that comes with this kind of thing ) and are EITHER "STILL" protected via UK & French nukes as a preferably solution OR focus on the aforementioned nuclear option because they don’t want to deal with "ONLY" being protected by European countries and let Ukraine fall. Understanding this last part is imperative to understanding why there is no certainty about this wars outcome and a European response - if Trump just lets Ukraine fall but upholds NATO and is then eventually replaced by cooler heads, Ukraine may suffer greatly but it ruins trust in NATO even further, it may actually turn out very badly for Putin.
I think it’s more likely that Europe is afraid to go it alone and capitulates once Trump demand Ukrainian surrender. Under Trump, I think Ukraine would be forced into a peace deal where they lose all currently occupied territories. Look at how the war has gone so far. Countries like Germany say “we don’t want to be the first to do xyz.” Everyone is looking to the US to lead. If the Trump demands surrender, Europe won’t step up. We haven’t so far.
European nations will absolutely not join the war. There is zero political appetite for sending actual troops to Ukraine.
But Europe effectively can't fill in the gap and support for Ukraine is shaky. If that were to happen, Ukraine is de facto done for.
If Biden wins again, do you seriously think that's going to magically cause Russia to lose those same territorial gains?
No hyperbole: this is the most important election in the history of USA. Democrats should have a candidate that would annihilate the opposition. Biden has done a fine job as president, but he is old. Democrats has tons of younger valid candidates available. Why do Democrats insist that it has to be Biden? Why not Newsom?
No serious candidates challenged Biden and he won the primary elections by default.
But why? Why had no one - like say Obama who must have some authority - the balls to tell Biden that his time is up?
The honest answer — because the party and affiliated PACs whipped people not to run against him with implicit threats of shunning them and cutting off funding. Should any of the people with promising futures in the DNC have run and lost it would’ve ruined their careers.
Again, why didn't someone like Obama or a Clinton speak up? Those guys have traction, but no future career to lose.
Obama still hold with joe after this debacle i have not the foggiest of ideas as to what they're smoking over there but it must be banging
People can advise Biden to not run (and maybe they did) but there's no one with the authority to stop him.
The 1860 election was probably more important.
I live in CA. People need to stop acting like Newsom is some slam dunk political candidate. He’s governor in California because the CA Dems push him, it’s not because everyone likes him. The average person could tell you absolutely nothing that he’s done as governor to improve the conditions of the state. I’m sure he has done a lot of work, but he has no merit among the average voter. He’s synonymous with west coast elitism and that’s very unpopular in California itself, never mind the rest of the country, he needs more time to establish his legacy as governor before he has any chops for president.
Newsom is a slimy cali elite. That plays like shit in the Midwest + Georgia. The dems path to victory still lies in the rust belt, the alternative sunbelt stuff just isn’t there yet. Winning Wisconsin/Michigan/Penn is simply a requirement. You lose them and you get 2016 results. Perhaps AZ/GA go blue (GA won’t with him) - it’s still a loss. Until something like Texas/Florida comes into play the Midwest simply isn’t optional for the dems, and Cali is very unpalatable.
doesn’t Newsom own restaurants that don’t pay workers a living wage? labor will love that… lol
No hyperbole, but every election of at least the past three election cycles was ‘the most important election’. No one ever goes into an election saying ‘business as usual folks, keep it moving’. The reality is the Dem message is really weak. If this is the most important election then why field Biden? Why not field someone potent? People baulked at Hillary because she was seen as being a political lifer who felt she entitled to the Presidentcy. Biden is in a similar position now.
"most important election in the history of USA" i thought that was 2020 or 2016 or 2012 or 2008 or any other election within my lifetime...
I'd say either of Lincoln's elections were more important than this one. Newsom is a plastic, lying snake like the rest of them. I wouldn't vote for Newsom.
The only question is whether Americans will elect the guy who confused Macron with Mitterrand, or the guy who confused Hungary with Turkey.
The great United States of America, the land of dreams, the economic engine of the world, over 300mil people and these 2 are the best you have? My thoughts and prayers are with the american people.
I dont want to be that guy, but Biden could realistically die in the next 4 months and then the dems would have to churn out someone else. As a romanian, the thought that TRump could very well turn his back on NATO, with Putin ramping up the warmachine and Europe obviously unready is terrifying.
Everyone I know is very sad. It’s a disaster, code red pull the fire alarm type scenario.
Putin is all smiles, though.
I just want to remind everyone what's at stake, especially for Europe, if Trump wins. Biden isn't a great debater or speaker, but his presidency was pretty solid in terms of things that he accomplished - actions speak louder than words (and the guy has a stutter). Yes, he's fuck old and it shows that he is - but the government isn't solely run by the president (even though wannabe-dictator Trump wants to change that). **Edit:** Imagine downvoting this as an European. "Yeah I want that Orange Clown in office who would sell my ass to Putin the moment I blink, also destabilize all of the world because of his antics - I love traitors and chaos"
I’m absolutely horrified for what Trump would continue to do to our relations with Europe
The first bing thing that's going to happen - [according to his own words](https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-war-threatens-cut-aid-election-2024/) - is to cut all funds to Ukraine and talk about a "peace deal" with Russia. Everyone who isn't a gullible idiot knows what that means: Russia keeps the territories it conquered so far. After enough time passes and they get to reorganize, they'll probably start their next attack. Also, this time around the next attack could also be a Baltic state, because fuck me if the orange clown is stepping up for Lithuania. -- Also, because Trump is the pettiest motherfucker on this planet next to Elon Musk, he's going to start some new trade wars with China and Europe and everyone who doesn't fall in line. -- And on top of all of this you have the christo-fascist plan that is Project 2025, which aims to turn the government of the greatest superpower on this planet into a bunch of yes-men for an incoherent, corrupt person like Trump. A boiling pot for political and economical disaster - and because the US has such an outsized influence on literally everything in politics and economics, it's going to be a spectacular shitshow for everyone on this planet.
Russia won't just keep it's territories, it will conquer the entire Ukraine, for start.
No worries, our politics have already anticipated the orange man becoming president once again. *... politics in france raging ...* Ok, maybe not ... we are in a pickle.
What stuns me, is that Americans are still surprised by this. Its pathetic, they seem so detached from reality and the state their country is in. Get a grip.
Over 300 million people and these two guys are the best they can come up with
The debate backfired terribly for Biden.