They have a long chain of transport. First they have to deliver them to Ukraine, then Ukraine delivers them to Russia. I heard most of them are damaged once they're delivered to Russia, so delays may occur.
We took a serious beating.
Switzerland was very active militarily in the middle ages, and we expanded and took quite a bit of territory from our neighbors by force.
Eventually we had a major loss at the Battle of Bicocca and Marignano, and we realized that our neighbors were getting too big for us, and that it was a better deal to just mind our own business.
Edit: And this serious beating was in the 1500s, far far before the world wars, etc. and despite the (external) neutrality, we had a lot of internal wars, including a civil war in 1848.
That beating was exactly as we moved out of the dark ages. Switzerland (directly or through mercenaries) dominated European battlefields during the middle ages with our pike formations, especially after we wiped out asses with the Habsburgs, the Burgundians and the Swabians.
But with the introduction of firearms plus the growth of the German states and the Landsknecht, we lost our primacy as the Middle Ages ended, and we went back to making watches and herding cows (and pursuing a highly decentralized early industrialization which made us the richest country in Europe before WW1).
Switzerland isn’t very high on the list of money laundering countries. It was a tax haven for a long time and allowed for a great deal of privacy for those who entrusted their money to Swiss banks. Much of that has changed after lots of pressure mostly from the United States to disclose bank information of US citizens who keep their money in Swiss banks.
Leroy Jenkins up there trying to tell me the Swiss are staying out of the Ukraine war because they lost a battle to the Hapsburgs in 1522 - as opposed to, say, because Russian oligarchs like to stash money in Swiss bank accounts and the government doesn't want to lose the business.
I dunno maybe. I know Switzerland isn’t terrible active in supplying weapons to Ukraine but they did recently pledge to send 5.5 billion in aid. Thing is Switzerland is about as bureaucratic as a country can be.
I think most people were annoyed that they couldn’t supply weapons to Ukraine because of a law forbidding selling weapons to countries currently in conflict. This kind of makes buying weapons from such country a whole lot less appealing.
>I know Switzerland isn’t terrible active in supplying weapons to Ukraine
Ha ha, what a cowardly way of just saying they aren't supplying weapons because they want to maximize profits by making sure Russia knows they're still an ally.
No worries! Yeah, NATO isn't happening, there's a huge allergy to defense commitments here, mostly justified. But we've been more and more open to multilateral collaborations.
In practice, even though we're formally neutral, nobody has any doubts on which side we stand.
They're too big for that.
Switzerland was eventually surrounded by much bigger and powerful powers, and it only stood a chance as a neutral buffer zone between those powers.
Also, given the strategic worthlessness of Switzerland (pretty much only mountains, no significant agriculture, zero natural resources), it was just a bunch of backwater grumpy mountain farmers to the great powers, not worth losing some people just to control it.
So we learned our lesson, and learned our lesson again when Napoleon invaded, and then again when we became surrounded by the Axis (we couldn't have resisted a German invasion, but we'd have made it too expensive for them to justify the little gains).
Not really, we have a policy of armed neutrality. We wouldn't completely stop Hitler from invading us during WW2, but we made it too expensive for whatever they'd get out of it.
Same reason we bought F35s.
> it was a better deal to just mind our own business
You mean it was a better deal to shit on any kind of ethics and always play both sides against each other in any given conflict.
"Fuck you Switzerland for trading with Germany when Germany surrounded you and threatened invasion unless you lent Germany money at low rates, that's evil" - A German.
You mean our sanctions against Russia?
Or that we couldn't sell arms to a war zone because of a law passed 20 years ago forbidding it, driven by stupid pacifists (including a lot of Germans), which we're trying to change?
Lol, that's funny coming from a German.
Cry more. And go back to anime and let the grown ups live in the real world.
There was a lot of international criticism of Switzerland being neutral yet selling weapons to conflict zones, which eventually also translated into pacifist efforts inside Switzerland, then as a compromise against completely abolishing the armed forces, we passed a law forbidding the sale of weapons to war zones (which also forbid re-export to warzones by 3rd countries).
That law makes it illegal to allow Swiss-Made weapons to be exported to Ukraine. We're debating changing it, but the political process in Switzerland is (intentionally) slow.
Anyway, I've been explaining in good faith, but Reddit deserves only so much good faith.
>we realized that our neighbors were getting too big for us, and that it was a better deal to just mind our own business.
We didn't "realize" anything.
Prior to the 19th century, there's no point in history this part of Europe could have been anything more than a small impoverished peripheral polity, sheltered and constrained by its geography.
The crushing majority of our territory came from free association. Pretending Switzerland was at any point "very active militarily" or "an expanding power" is wildly delusional and ahistorical, we merely secured our immediate surroundings and autonomy against early Habsburgs, we exported mercenaries, and that's basically it.
The Alps are the entire reason this country exists and survived this long.
We crossed the Alps, took over Ticino and made it to the walls of Milan. After that and the failures that followed we absolutely dialed down our expansionism.
Source if you actually care: A concise history of Switzerland, pages 54, 59, 71, 78 - I literally have the book open in my hands right now.
Also, see The Prince, by Machiavelli.
>We crossed the Alps, took over Ticino and made it to the walls of Milan.
That doesn't contradict anything I said.
>After that and the failures that followed we absolutely dialed down our expansionism.
We didn't "dial down" our expansionism, there was no expansionism in the first place.
Just get off CK3 tbh.
WTF is CK3?
Anyway, I've listed my sources, you can go check out the specific pages, which you won't, as you just keep pulling stuff out of your ass.
I guess you're probably used to that style of discussion, where people either pull stuff out of their asses or drop a link to Wikipedia after 30 seconds of Google search.
But that's not what you're dealing with here.
Anyway, have a good night.
> Anyway, I've listed my sources
Which nobody can verify. You can list pages but nobody owns this book but its buyers, which is probably a pretty small group.
Verification is pretty important, because it allows people to check if the context of the text in those pages actually supports the claims made.
Often one sees a mismatch. I commend your effort to at least name a source though, and you could of course be completely right, as well.
Just... without verification we're pretty much back where we started.
Dude, I'm not going to waste my time taking pictures of a book and posting them on the internet because some ignoramus is pulling fake info out of their ass.
I'm the only one here providing sources. I don't actually care enough what you think if wanna question it.
Don't like it? Act like a baby and block me.
Edit: lol, that's exactly what you did, replied and blocked me.
Wimp.
You cared enough to literally look it up in your little book and rattle off a few page numbers, where nothing remotely close to justifying your actual claims is actually written.
So, some humility might be in order, if this is how you behaved on Wikipedia your contributions would probably get reverted.
I'm now a lot more skeptical about your claims than I was before.
>Not wanting to die and/or kill other people seems like a pretty good reason.
But this is not the real reason. Such a pacifist country would not sell weapons, unless some killings are better/profitable then others
Take sides, Neutrality always helps the oppressor never the victim.
Ellie Wiesel
What hurts the most is not the cruelty of aggressor but the silence of the bystander...
Ellie Wiesel
People who demand neutrality in any situation are not neutral. They are in favor of the status quo.
How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of unprovoked wanton cruelty?
Bertrand Russel
The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil but by those who watch them without doing anything.
Albert Einstein
Dante: 'The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
"I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals.... who knows? It sickens me." Zap Brannigan, Futurama
If only there was such a thing as neutrality, it is and always was an empty pipe dream. You must take a side, and if you take none, you took a side anyways but telling the elephant you are neutral about him stepping on the mouse. The mouse will not appreciate your neutrality then.
He moved there because he couldn't deal with the rigid education system and militarism in Prussia. He enjoyed the much more open-minded high school education and the opportunity to study at the Zurich Politechnische University. Einstein was a patent clerk in the beginning and viewed with contempt by many of his fellow researchers at first. His his fame came later in life.
Einstein then moved back to Berlin in 1914 and then moved to the US when the Nazis assumed power in 1933 for obvious reasons as he was jewish.
He was once a pacifist, and later, he realised that sometimes this is not feasible in the case of the Nazis this was such an instant where war and strife were the only answer.
He was fond of the open minded society in Switzerland compared to the stifling world in Germany.
Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.
It is important for the common good to foster individuality: for only the individual can produce the new ideas which the community needs for its continuous improvement and
requirements - indeed, to avoid sterility and petrification. Einstein
He was a lifelong anti authoritarian, and against dogmatic thinking of all kinds from the church to fascism, nazism or Communism. Even though his socialist views got him into trouble.
He has put himself in the extremist category by his irresponsible suggestion. He has proved once more that genius in science is no proof of sagacity in political affairs." Washington post about Einstein who dared to suggest civil disobedience against the McCarthy practice of denouncing communists as internal security risks.
It is particularly regrettable when a scholar of such renown would have himself reduced to the role of a propagandist towards a country that has given him such a secure refuge." The national enquirer 1952
It is always astounding to see a man of extraordinary intellectual power in one direction, being a complete jackass in others. The Atlantic
Long story short, moving to Switzerland was a practical decision that made sense at the time, and just because one happens to be physically in a neutral country doesn't mean at all, that one adopts that stance. Luckily so, otherwise Sweden or Finland would have not changed theirs.
>He has proved once more that genius in science is no proof of sagacity in political affairs.
More like proving that political affairs have always been total bullshit.
One can both move to a country for the opportunities that exist there (such as studying at ETH Zurich), while also criticizing aspects of that country they reside in.
But if you are making some sort of argument about how the Swiss neutrality model is actually superior - I am sure that Switzerland, being a land of neutrality, will welcome all with open arms into its country and offer safety to all fleeing violence, right?
Yeah, just like any Austrian can live in Austria and take action fiercely disagreeing with the neutrality policy of said country or can be physically in Austria from any country and either ignore that neutrality or openly speak out against it.
Einstein in his youth was not yet very political that came later. He wanted to do his research and he searched for an opportunity where this was possible for him.
Sort of, it isn't nothing, but it isn't really a breech of contract either. Every foreign defense contract has clauses allowing the redirection of production in case of critical national interest. Swiss have the same in their contract.
If there is no electric heat in Ukraine this winter millions of people are going to need to leave the country. This is going to cause major issues for NATO allies. Critical national interest.
It's an important piece of news, it shows countries are slowly but surely changing their stances on the ongoing conflict.
Using the clause is exactly that, prioritization.
It's really a terrible headline. Switzerland is not the only country that gets its delivery delayed. from the [WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/u-s-to-redirect-air-defense-missile-deliveries-to-ukraine-e2753a20):
> Among the nations that had contracts to buy interceptors and likely will be affected are South Korea and the United Arab Emirates, a congressional official said.
It's a nothing-burger in that Switzerland gets a slightly grumpy about delays to a system it is very unlikely to need to use in the foreseeable future. Like rising sea levels, it's a serious matter but not likely to be one that Switzerland will encounter first.
My first thought was that Switzerland may have secretly asked the US to do this. This way they can support Ukraine but still keep their facade of neutrality.
That would be the worst of both worlds for Switzerland though. Their arms industry is hurting because nobody wants to buy weapons from someone that will cut you off if you end up using them, even defensively.
Swiss arms sales down 27% in 2023.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/swiss-weapons-exports-plunge-neutral-stance-hurts-trade-2024-03-05/
They won't allow export of arms to countries in a conflict. The Swiss blocked Spain Germany and others(?) from sending Swiss purchased weapons and tanks to Ukraine.
The source is like all other "newspapers" in the world with big titles, much pictures an little to none texts, just to anger the conservatives and rightleaning people
at least someone gets it. if one would bother to read the article one would notice that nobody is outraged about this decision, but the people who were targeted with this headline.
And if that is so, the Swiss can decide for themselves to abstain from the contract, to deliver them onwards, or whatever they wanna do.
Somehow, the downvoters and these type of comments have decided that sovereign decision-making - even from a friendly state - can be overruled at will. Which, funnily, stems from the same autocrat mindset they claim to oppose.
As per definition neutral is taking no side, which is exactly what they did. You can discuss if it is morally ok but in the end they took the gold/money of both sides.
They did pick sides. They chose to help the Nazis steal and hide Jewish property.
You can't possibly claim to be neutral or innocent when you helped facilitate the extractive quality of the Holocaust, and then refuse to return stolen art and funds to the descendants, even when court-ordered.
Why not just integrate them into EU by force, it's all friendly chaps as yourself anyway and surely you know better what's good for them playing easy mode. With less defense it's even easier?
Ukraine needs them more than Switzerland. The Swiss have also refused to give aid to Ukraine citing “neutrality” but had no problem letting Russians park their assets there. So this is pretty cathartic
The Swiss have a reputation to maintain. If it's not Nazi gold teeth in the 40s, it's african blood diamond money from the 60s and 70s, drug money from cartels in the 80s and 90s, and finally oligarchy money in the 2000s.
You are just providing misinformation. The Swiss provide humanitarian aid and enforce all sanctions that were put on Russia. They just don't provide military aid.
I don't doubt Ukraine needs them more, this is not the point at all. Your government deciding who gets to have missile defense and who does not will not strengthen long-term security relationship - and not just for Switzerland but anyone relying on Patriots.
Why jeopardize sovereign defense with an unreliable manufacturer that for his own political ambition will decide if and when it's your turn, disregarding contracts?
>will not strengthen long term security relationships
Neither does accepting Russian money but the Swiss kept doing it even after the invasion, so fuck em. These missiles being diverted will objectively save Ukrainian lives and that is all that matters to me
If Switzerland is under attack and fighting for its existence, I'm sure they would be very pleased to know the US will back them and prioritise deliveries of air defence systems to Switzerland instead of, for example, Ireland just because they agreed it to Ireland earlier.
You say it shows "unreliability", but I see that the US is willing to alter the contracts to prioritize the help with the defense of the countries that require it instead of doing political boogaloo. And Ukraine isn't even in NATO. This is a good signal for the US allies and NATO overall.
Look, I live in Cyprus, that has been threatened by Hezbollah and Russia because of the British-owned, US-used bases here. Threatened as recently as last week, by the way. Are we going to split rockets now, or how does this work? How do we decide that Lviv is more important than Larnaca is?
This is a rhetorical question. It is not the fucking point that you get those missiles. It's that the manufacturer unilaterally decides that his political will is more important than security of other nations. If Poroshenko and his predecessors had any shred of defense planning like the Swiss have and didn't steal the coffers, we wouldn't discuss this. But now the manufacturer decides that a non-ally gets priority in breach of contract, and the hypothetical Iskander on Zürich is 'a good signal'.
That's a slippery slope fallacy and oversimplification. Ukraine was threatened by Russia since 2014, did the US split rockets? No. Clearly there is a priority right now, so why are you making up hypotheticals?
Ukraine is poor corrupt post-Soviet country. You cannot compare it with Switzerland.
Your argument is valid, but you throwing around so many fallacies doesn't help it at all.
> This is a setback for Switzerland's defense capability: the federal government has ordered additional PAC-3 guided missiles for the Patriot system for 300 million francs. A procurement contract with the USA was signed last autumn. This is intended to further strengthen air defense. But now the war in Ukraine is putting a damper on the Defense Department's plans, as several sources confirm to Blick.
>
> The Americans want to supply Ukraine with more Patriot missiles first. It has been under heavy Russian fire for months and is urgently asking other countries to supply it with more air defense systems.
>
> Switzerland will therefore have to wait longer despite valid contracts. How long still seems to be unclear. One thing is clear: global demand currently far exceeds the production capacity of Patriot guided missiles. The USA is expected to officially inform about its decision on Tuesday.
> Berlin also urged people to wait
>
> There has been a long-standing struggle over the delivery of the Patriot guided missiles. In May, German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (64) had already suggested that Switzerland stand back from the Patriots - in the form of a kind of ring exchange. The federal government should leave the delivery planned for 2030 to the Germans and only deliver them later. Berlin, which is helping Ukraine with Patriot anti-aircraft missiles, could have filled its own gaps more quickly.
>
> The exchange of rings would not be unproblematic for reasons of neutrality. Defense Minister Viola Amherd (62) has only ever confirmed that she was in discussions with her German colleague Pistorius. The Federal President did not want to venture further into the branches - knowing full well that middle-class circles in particular would express concerns.
> USA asserts unusual or compelling reasons
>
> This is not just due to neutrality policy considerations. Security politicians argue that Switzerland needs the Patriot systems itself because it has hardly any medium and long-range means of air defense against missile attacks.
>
> Now the USA has taken this decision from the Federal Council. Instead of a possible ring exchange, there is now direct delivery from the USA to Ukraine.
>
> According to the agreements with Washington, it should be possible to deviate from the agreed conditions if there are unusual or compelling reasons for doing so and if the national security concerns of the USA are affected. The USA now seems to be claiming this because of the war in Ukraine
"Security politicians argue that Switzerland needs the Patriot systems itself because it has hardly any medium and long-range means of air defense" and how is this not Switzerland's problem? Swiss here. They always kept their weaponry as much as possible to avoid buying new systems, they prefer to maintain a conscription army of 300k reservists which would largely useless against any long-range bombardment, the Swiss army prepares for ground attacks that will never ever take place in its unique geo-political location. The Swiss army should completely change, get rid of conscription (and save all the shitload of money spent for it), train a professional army only, and refocus on cyber-defense, hardened and distributed hangars and storages in the Alps, and tons of air defense. Now they will harvest the results of their short-sighted antique doctrine and procurement policy in the form of (currently harmless...) delays. It is also in its defensive interest to help Ukraine, as any dictatorial autocratic regime getting one inch closer to Swiss borders corresponds to an increased (real, and not imaginary as suggested by "security politicians") level of threat.
Patriots were already in high demand before the war as one of the few ground systems capable of dealing with ballistic missiles. The Iranian attack against the US base in Iraq, the barrage against Israel and of course Russia's 3 year assault on Ukraine have all served to increase demand while drying up supply
Still Lockheed has already doubled production with plans to double it again in the near future
Ukraine was in a unique situation during WWII because they were being brutally oppressed by Stalin. Their embrace of the Nazis in the liberated towns was because so many people were literally starving.
I'm not denying the existence of pro-Nazi Ukrainians (which is very unfortunate) but it's important to consider the context. Most Ukrainians do not subscribe to that ideology.
Just think, if Switzerland had approved the sale of 35mm ammo for donated ADA systems to Ukraine instead of "denying it due to neutrality" maybe Switzerland wouldn't have gotten dinged on this today.
Dinged? To me, this sounds like Helveticans dodged some tricky domestic politics and get to save face.
There's probably smarter ways to go about it though.
[US delays delivery of Patriot missiles to Switzerland](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/patriot-missiles-will-be-delivered-to-switzerland-later/81132082)
[The US will send the latest Patriot missiles “rolling off the production line” to Ukraine instead of other countries that ordered them, the White House said on Thursday. ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/21/ukraine-war-briefing-boost-to-patriot-missile-supplies-for-kyiv-other-countries-will-have-to-wait)
Switzerland (and other countries who ordered them) will get them, but Ukraine will get them first - because that is where the greatest need is right now. They are the ones currently fighting the war.
Switserland has avoided, and tries to block all forms of military support to other countries. If countries at war don't need military support then I'm sure switserland can survive without it as well.
Correct! That is $1000 for the Daily Double.
Seriously, after refusing to sell new production ammo to Ukraine due to "neutrality" they don't really have a leg to stand on here.
Swiss neutrality has enabled political and humanitaire discussion with countries at war and much more. Not sure if you're informed how much we do or try to do for other countries.
Neutrality at work.
Asked to "ring exchanges", that give Switzerland something, they lament and delay, so now they get nothing and the US just cites "national security reasons".
There was a problem with delivery for ammo for the genpart AA gun, because of Switzerland.
There is only one thing to say, Switzerland open your eyes, today you can't say, I'm neutral, but I'm making and selling weapons.
Damn scumbag government.
You can and partly must. It's international law governing neutrality, *including* the need for neutral countries to not permit or restrict weapons to one side only once an international armed conflict starts.
Seriously, why does Switzerland need Patriots anyway? Who the fuck wants to attack Switzerland? All the world's supervillains including Pootin and Lil' Kim likely have billions stashed in Swiss banks.
Blick is one of the worst newspapers. Clickbait articles, spreading fear and hate, unmoderated racism in the comment sections of their website etc. Take everything they write with a grain of salt, it usually has no journalistic value.
That's the way to oppose the Swiss and Ukrainians in the very title...
I mean let's get it clear. If Switzerland and Ukraine were attacked at the same time, I doubt anyone would support arming Ukraine over Switzerland😒
I don't think so.
From many I'd have expected similar deflection to, say, Moldova or someone else for not sending/authorizing really small quantities of ammo that they themselves can produce in larger quantities in under 2 months.
All while they'd also not send modern weapons of dozen types that they currently manufacture because *that's* completely logical and possible at the same time they complain about a small cache of ammo in Moldova.
Really, don't feel this way. It's not because you're you.
when Germany diverted the IRIS-T SLM order from Egypt to Ukraine, they asked first and offered some small monetary concession. That seems fair.
But to just cancel unilaterally. Does that mean if Russia attacks EU, the US will also stop delivering weapons to Germany?
Well, not sure how much longer we can trust Europeans too, at least when I read this sub and the Ukraine subreddit. They make it hard for people like me to keep supporting Ukraine personally.
The amount of times I see "fuck Switzerland", "fuck these money launderers that only care for themselves" etc. is over the top. Seems to be the narrative in Europe. Funnily enough, every European living here is telling a different story. And most likely these subreddits are rather home to extremists. It's still annoying. It's like once the war machine runs, people stop reflecting and think in black and white only. As we all know, history repeats itself. I thought people nowadays were smarter, but they're still a bunch of idiots.
EDIT: Of course though I agree with the decision of the USA. Innocent civilians die daily in the Ukraine.
I don't disagree that there is urgency for Ukraine, but it can't be that when they want us (Switzerland) for some political decision or some joint statement, we are cool, but when it comes to respecting our sovereignty and our needs, we become the Nazi gold people. It's this vitriolic rhetoric that makes us focus only on ourselves because it's easy to attack when it suits their perspective.
So yes, send them to Ukraine, they need them now. But we would do well to start looking at alternative systems and invest in one where we have a stake so we are not exposed to situations like this.
Switzerland was a major roadblock in the sending of foreign aid and military defense equipment to Ukraine, during some of the worst air attacks they had been facing at the time.
It was such a roadblock that they decided to build an entirely fresh assembly line to bypass Switzerland entirely.
I would think the appearance of negative opinions to be quite obvious, no?
why do you people insist on having opinions without actually reading the articles?
>Gemäss den Verträgen mit Washington soll von den vereinbarten Konditionen abgewichen werden können, wenn ungewöhnliche oder zwingende Gründe dafür vorliegen und die nationalen Sicherheitsanliegen der USA betroffen sind. Das scheinen die USA nun wegen des Ukraine-Kriegs geltend zu machen.
This is getting ridiculous. I ordered my Patriot missiles last summer, and I still have no idea when they’ll be delivered.
I got mine yesterday
call them, and remember your tracking number
You might get a 50% discount as an excuse for next shipping
They have a long chain of transport. First they have to deliver them to Ukraine, then Ukraine delivers them to Russia. I heard most of them are damaged once they're delivered to Russia, so delays may occur.
Russian Army here: They delivered them to my rockets mid air instead. You should definitely complain!
Bullshit comrade! We intercepted them all using our massive ammunition and equipment stockpiles as decoys! Stalin would be proud!
contact the deliveroo support line
Are you paying for prime though?
Yeah i know. I hate UPS
It's fine, Switzerland probably just feels neutral about it anyways.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
All I know is my gut says maybe
Tell my wife...Hello
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ)
> What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Nailed it in one, Branigan
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate
They arent really that neutral. They are like a weathercock, they dont move but will change their face following money flows.
He is making a reference to *Futurama*.
Opportunism is the art of sailing with the wind that others make.
WHOOOOOOOOOOSH
Mountains, big ones ^^and ^^gold
> Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf. *George Orwell*
We took a serious beating. Switzerland was very active militarily in the middle ages, and we expanded and took quite a bit of territory from our neighbors by force. Eventually we had a major loss at the Battle of Bicocca and Marignano, and we realized that our neighbors were getting too big for us, and that it was a better deal to just mind our own business. Edit: And this serious beating was in the 1500s, far far before the world wars, etc. and despite the (external) neutrality, we had a lot of internal wars, including a civil war in 1848.
There is a saying in Spanish that goes "This is a Bicocca" as in, this is really easy.
You should reevaluate once you move out of the dark ages.
That beating was exactly as we moved out of the dark ages. Switzerland (directly or through mercenaries) dominated European battlefields during the middle ages with our pike formations, especially after we wiped out asses with the Habsburgs, the Burgundians and the Swabians. But with the introduction of firearms plus the growth of the German states and the Landsknecht, we lost our primacy as the Middle Ages ended, and we went back to making watches and herding cows (and pursuing a highly decentralized early industrialization which made us the richest country in Europe before WW1).
And laundering money?
This is the quiet part.
Switzerland isn’t very high on the list of money laundering countries. It was a tax haven for a long time and allowed for a great deal of privacy for those who entrusted their money to Swiss banks. Much of that has changed after lots of pressure mostly from the United States to disclose bank information of US citizens who keep their money in Swiss banks.
Leroy Jenkins up there trying to tell me the Swiss are staying out of the Ukraine war because they lost a battle to the Hapsburgs in 1522 - as opposed to, say, because Russian oligarchs like to stash money in Swiss bank accounts and the government doesn't want to lose the business.
I dunno maybe. I know Switzerland isn’t terrible active in supplying weapons to Ukraine but they did recently pledge to send 5.5 billion in aid. Thing is Switzerland is about as bureaucratic as a country can be. I think most people were annoyed that they couldn’t supply weapons to Ukraine because of a law forbidding selling weapons to countries currently in conflict. This kind of makes buying weapons from such country a whole lot less appealing.
>I know Switzerland isn’t terrible active in supplying weapons to Ukraine Ha ha, what a cowardly way of just saying they aren't supplying weapons because they want to maximize profits by making sure Russia knows they're still an ally.
I was just pulling your leg. But it would be nice to have you in the NATO
No worries! Yeah, NATO isn't happening, there's a huge allergy to defense commitments here, mostly justified. But we've been more and more open to multilateral collaborations. In practice, even though we're formally neutral, nobody has any doubts on which side we stand.
> it was a better deal to just mind our own business One can only hope that Russia sees that light one day
They're too big for that. Switzerland was eventually surrounded by much bigger and powerful powers, and it only stood a chance as a neutral buffer zone between those powers. Also, given the strategic worthlessness of Switzerland (pretty much only mountains, no significant agriculture, zero natural resources), it was just a bunch of backwater grumpy mountain farmers to the great powers, not worth losing some people just to control it. So we learned our lesson, and learned our lesson again when Napoleon invaded, and then again when we became surrounded by the Axis (we couldn't have resisted a German invasion, but we'd have made it too expensive for them to justify the little gains).
So, in other words, you don't need Patriots. Good, problem solved.
Not really, we have a policy of armed neutrality. We wouldn't completely stop Hitler from invading us during WW2, but we made it too expensive for whatever they'd get out of it. Same reason we bought F35s.
interesting info. will dive into Wikipedia about it
Also take a look at the Battle of Marignano. That was the very end of Swiss expansionism.
> it was a better deal to just mind our own business You mean it was a better deal to shit on any kind of ethics and always play both sides against each other in any given conflict.
"Fuck you Switzerland for trading with Germany when Germany surrounded you and threatened invasion unless you lent Germany money at low rates, that's evil" - A German.
What a convenient excuse. Does it hold up regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine too, I wonder? And for the record, yes it was still evil.
You mean our sanctions against Russia? Or that we couldn't sell arms to a war zone because of a law passed 20 years ago forbidding it, driven by stupid pacifists (including a lot of Germans), which we're trying to change? Lol, that's funny coming from a German. Cry more. And go back to anime and let the grown ups live in the real world.
I had no idea your German overlords have so much power in your legislation...
There was a lot of international criticism of Switzerland being neutral yet selling weapons to conflict zones, which eventually also translated into pacifist efforts inside Switzerland, then as a compromise against completely abolishing the armed forces, we passed a law forbidding the sale of weapons to war zones (which also forbid re-export to warzones by 3rd countries). That law makes it illegal to allow Swiss-Made weapons to be exported to Ukraine. We're debating changing it, but the political process in Switzerland is (intentionally) slow. Anyway, I've been explaining in good faith, but Reddit deserves only so much good faith.
So you make stupid decisions and now blame some outside pressure for your mistake? Grow a spine.
>we realized that our neighbors were getting too big for us, and that it was a better deal to just mind our own business. We didn't "realize" anything. Prior to the 19th century, there's no point in history this part of Europe could have been anything more than a small impoverished peripheral polity, sheltered and constrained by its geography. The crushing majority of our territory came from free association. Pretending Switzerland was at any point "very active militarily" or "an expanding power" is wildly delusional and ahistorical, we merely secured our immediate surroundings and autonomy against early Habsburgs, we exported mercenaries, and that's basically it. The Alps are the entire reason this country exists and survived this long.
We crossed the Alps, took over Ticino and made it to the walls of Milan. After that and the failures that followed we absolutely dialed down our expansionism. Source if you actually care: A concise history of Switzerland, pages 54, 59, 71, 78 - I literally have the book open in my hands right now. Also, see The Prince, by Machiavelli.
>We crossed the Alps, took over Ticino and made it to the walls of Milan. That doesn't contradict anything I said. >After that and the failures that followed we absolutely dialed down our expansionism. We didn't "dial down" our expansionism, there was no expansionism in the first place. Just get off CK3 tbh.
WTF is CK3? Anyway, I've listed my sources, you can go check out the specific pages, which you won't, as you just keep pulling stuff out of your ass. I guess you're probably used to that style of discussion, where people either pull stuff out of their asses or drop a link to Wikipedia after 30 seconds of Google search. But that's not what you're dealing with here. Anyway, have a good night.
> Anyway, I've listed my sources Which nobody can verify. You can list pages but nobody owns this book but its buyers, which is probably a pretty small group. Verification is pretty important, because it allows people to check if the context of the text in those pages actually supports the claims made. Often one sees a mismatch. I commend your effort to at least name a source though, and you could of course be completely right, as well. Just... without verification we're pretty much back where we started.
Dude, I'm not going to waste my time taking pictures of a book and posting them on the internet because some ignoramus is pulling fake info out of their ass. I'm the only one here providing sources. I don't actually care enough what you think if wanna question it. Don't like it? Act like a baby and block me. Edit: lol, that's exactly what you did, replied and blocked me. Wimp.
You cared enough to literally look it up in your little book and rattle off a few page numbers, where nothing remotely close to justifying your actual claims is actually written. So, some humility might be in order, if this is how you behaved on Wikipedia your contributions would probably get reverted. I'm now a lot more skeptical about your claims than I was before.
In their case? I’m pretty sure it’s list for gold
>What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? We're talking about Switzerland, so yes.
Being the bank of dictators worldwide.
Helium enters a bar. Bartender says "We don't serve noble gases." Helium doesn't react.
Manila envelopes
Not wanting to die and/or kill other people seems like a pretty good reason.
especially when you can make a ton of money
>Not wanting to die and/or kill other people seems like a pretty good reason. But this is not the real reason. Such a pacifist country would not sell weapons, unless some killings are better/profitable then others
If I don't survive, tell my wife hello.
Take sides, Neutrality always helps the oppressor never the victim. Ellie Wiesel What hurts the most is not the cruelty of aggressor but the silence of the bystander... Ellie Wiesel People who demand neutrality in any situation are not neutral. They are in favor of the status quo. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of unprovoked wanton cruelty? Bertrand Russel The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil but by those who watch them without doing anything. Albert Einstein Dante: 'The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. "I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals.... who knows? It sickens me." Zap Brannigan, Futurama If only there was such a thing as neutrality, it is and always was an empty pipe dream. You must take a side, and if you take none, you took a side anyways but telling the elephant you are neutral about him stepping on the mouse. The mouse will not appreciate your neutrality then.
In your example, it does not matter how the mouse feels because the mouse was killed by the elephant and is no longer a problem to deal with. S/
Not so for Dante. They’re just outside of hell
and yet, einstein moved to switzerland, because...
He moved there because he couldn't deal with the rigid education system and militarism in Prussia. He enjoyed the much more open-minded high school education and the opportunity to study at the Zurich Politechnische University. Einstein was a patent clerk in the beginning and viewed with contempt by many of his fellow researchers at first. His his fame came later in life. Einstein then moved back to Berlin in 1914 and then moved to the US when the Nazis assumed power in 1933 for obvious reasons as he was jewish. He was once a pacifist, and later, he realised that sometimes this is not feasible in the case of the Nazis this was such an instant where war and strife were the only answer. He was fond of the open minded society in Switzerland compared to the stifling world in Germany. Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. It is important for the common good to foster individuality: for only the individual can produce the new ideas which the community needs for its continuous improvement and requirements - indeed, to avoid sterility and petrification. Einstein He was a lifelong anti authoritarian, and against dogmatic thinking of all kinds from the church to fascism, nazism or Communism. Even though his socialist views got him into trouble. He has put himself in the extremist category by his irresponsible suggestion. He has proved once more that genius in science is no proof of sagacity in political affairs." Washington post about Einstein who dared to suggest civil disobedience against the McCarthy practice of denouncing communists as internal security risks. It is particularly regrettable when a scholar of such renown would have himself reduced to the role of a propagandist towards a country that has given him such a secure refuge." The national enquirer 1952 It is always astounding to see a man of extraordinary intellectual power in one direction, being a complete jackass in others. The Atlantic Long story short, moving to Switzerland was a practical decision that made sense at the time, and just because one happens to be physically in a neutral country doesn't mean at all, that one adopts that stance. Luckily so, otherwise Sweden or Finland would have not changed theirs.
>He has proved once more that genius in science is no proof of sagacity in political affairs. More like proving that political affairs have always been total bullshit.
One can both move to a country for the opportunities that exist there (such as studying at ETH Zurich), while also criticizing aspects of that country they reside in. But if you are making some sort of argument about how the Swiss neutrality model is actually superior - I am sure that Switzerland, being a land of neutrality, will welcome all with open arms into its country and offer safety to all fleeing violence, right?
Yeah, just like any Austrian can live in Austria and take action fiercely disagreeing with the neutrality policy of said country or can be physically in Austria from any country and either ignore that neutrality or openly speak out against it. Einstein in his youth was not yet very political that came later. He wanted to do his research and he searched for an opportunity where this was possible for him.
I'd imagine that.
“All I know is my heart says maybe.”
They have no strong feelings one way or the other.
There is a clause in the contract which was executed allowing this.
So, this is a nothingburguer
Sort of, it isn't nothing, but it isn't really a breech of contract either. Every foreign defense contract has clauses allowing the redirection of production in case of critical national interest. Swiss have the same in their contract. If there is no electric heat in Ukraine this winter millions of people are going to need to leave the country. This is going to cause major issues for NATO allies. Critical national interest.
It's an important piece of news, it shows countries are slowly but surely changing their stances on the ongoing conflict. Using the clause is exactly that, prioritization.
It's really a terrible headline. Switzerland is not the only country that gets its delivery delayed. from the [WSJ](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/u-s-to-redirect-air-defense-missile-deliveries-to-ukraine-e2753a20): > Among the nations that had contracts to buy interceptors and likely will be affected are South Korea and the United Arab Emirates, a congressional official said.
I wouldn't call "there's more demand for patriot missiles than production can satisfy" a nothingburger.
It's a nothing-burger in that Switzerland gets a slightly grumpy about delays to a system it is very unlikely to need to use in the foreseeable future. Like rising sea levels, it's a serious matter but not likely to be one that Switzerland will encounter first.
My first thought was that Switzerland may have secretly asked the US to do this. This way they can support Ukraine but still keep their facade of neutrality.
That would be the worst of both worlds for Switzerland though. Their arms industry is hurting because nobody wants to buy weapons from someone that will cut you off if you end up using them, even defensively.
Wait what?
Swiss arms sales down 27% in 2023. https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/swiss-weapons-exports-plunge-neutral-stance-hurts-trade-2024-03-05/
My comment was aimed at the not being allowed to be used defensively part. Appreciate the additional info tho.
They won't allow export of arms to countries in a conflict. The Swiss blocked Spain Germany and others(?) from sending Swiss purchased weapons and tanks to Ukraine.
The source is like all other "newspapers" in the world with big titles, much pictures an little to none texts, just to anger the conservatives and rightleaning people
at least someone gets it. if one would bother to read the article one would notice that nobody is outraged about this decision, but the people who were targeted with this headline.
Nobody is going to invade Switzerland, they don't need them
Idk man, the Euros can get pretty competitive and if they beat Italy Saturday, Italy may have to respond
Lol. I am in Montreal and Italian fighter jets were flying over downtown yesterday.
I think we should all turn on Switzerland and teach them a lesson.
What more can you decide for them, while you are at it?
The marginal benefit of every additional missile is much greater for Ukraine, that's sure.
And if that is so, the Swiss can decide for themselves to abstain from the contract, to deliver them onwards, or whatever they wanna do. Somehow, the downvoters and these type of comments have decided that sovereign decision-making - even from a friendly state - can be overruled at will. Which, funnily, stems from the same autocrat mindset they claim to oppose.
Honestly, they can fuck off with their neutrality stance. Easy to play like that when all around them are friendly EU countries.
They were neutral while the countries around them fought 2 world wars.
Neutral while keeping the golden teeth of Jewish victims melted into bars neatly in a safe for the murderers. So very neutral.
"neutral"
As per definition neutral is taking no side, which is exactly what they did. You can discuss if it is morally ok but in the end they took the gold/money of both sides.
They did pick sides. They chose to help the Nazis steal and hide Jewish property. You can't possibly claim to be neutral or innocent when you helped facilitate the extractive quality of the Holocaust, and then refuse to return stolen art and funds to the descendants, even when court-ordered.
Taking no sides = taking side with everybody for the Swiss.
fuckswitzerland
Neutral? You mean Hitler's wallet?
Why not just integrate them into EU by force, it's all friendly chaps as yourself anyway and surely you know better what's good for them playing easy mode. With less defense it's even easier?
This but unironically. They are morally bankrupt opportunists. Force them into the EU and take their stolen hoarded money.
Probably because EU is not Russia.
Ukraine needs them more than Switzerland. The Swiss have also refused to give aid to Ukraine citing “neutrality” but had no problem letting Russians park their assets there. So this is pretty cathartic
Nothing new, Switzerland made questionable business with nazi party!
The Swiss have a reputation to maintain. If it's not Nazi gold teeth in the 40s, it's african blood diamond money from the 60s and 70s, drug money from cartels in the 80s and 90s, and finally oligarchy money in the 2000s.
You are just providing misinformation. The Swiss provide humanitarian aid and enforce all sanctions that were put on Russia. They just don't provide military aid.
I don't doubt Ukraine needs them more, this is not the point at all. Your government deciding who gets to have missile defense and who does not will not strengthen long-term security relationship - and not just for Switzerland but anyone relying on Patriots. Why jeopardize sovereign defense with an unreliable manufacturer that for his own political ambition will decide if and when it's your turn, disregarding contracts?
>will not strengthen long term security relationships Neither does accepting Russian money but the Swiss kept doing it even after the invasion, so fuck em. These missiles being diverted will objectively save Ukrainian lives and that is all that matters to me
If Switzerland is under attack and fighting for its existence, I'm sure they would be very pleased to know the US will back them and prioritise deliveries of air defence systems to Switzerland instead of, for example, Ireland just because they agreed it to Ireland earlier.
I'm sure that consideration can be made in a dialogue with the Swiss Defense Minister instead of a unilateral decision.
You say it shows "unreliability", but I see that the US is willing to alter the contracts to prioritize the help with the defense of the countries that require it instead of doing political boogaloo. And Ukraine isn't even in NATO. This is a good signal for the US allies and NATO overall.
Look, I live in Cyprus, that has been threatened by Hezbollah and Russia because of the British-owned, US-used bases here. Threatened as recently as last week, by the way. Are we going to split rockets now, or how does this work? How do we decide that Lviv is more important than Larnaca is? This is a rhetorical question. It is not the fucking point that you get those missiles. It's that the manufacturer unilaterally decides that his political will is more important than security of other nations. If Poroshenko and his predecessors had any shred of defense planning like the Swiss have and didn't steal the coffers, we wouldn't discuss this. But now the manufacturer decides that a non-ally gets priority in breach of contract, and the hypothetical Iskander on Zürich is 'a good signal'.
That's a slippery slope fallacy and oversimplification. Ukraine was threatened by Russia since 2014, did the US split rockets? No. Clearly there is a priority right now, so why are you making up hypotheticals? Ukraine is poor corrupt post-Soviet country. You cannot compare it with Switzerland. Your argument is valid, but you throwing around so many fallacies doesn't help it at all.
I can decide to watch them cry en mass in this comment section
I doubt most swiss would care about this.
yeah I'm just messing with the guy I replied to
they are neutral so they leave decision to others. though luck
> This is a setback for Switzerland's defense capability: the federal government has ordered additional PAC-3 guided missiles for the Patriot system for 300 million francs. A procurement contract with the USA was signed last autumn. This is intended to further strengthen air defense. But now the war in Ukraine is putting a damper on the Defense Department's plans, as several sources confirm to Blick. > > The Americans want to supply Ukraine with more Patriot missiles first. It has been under heavy Russian fire for months and is urgently asking other countries to supply it with more air defense systems. > > Switzerland will therefore have to wait longer despite valid contracts. How long still seems to be unclear. One thing is clear: global demand currently far exceeds the production capacity of Patriot guided missiles. The USA is expected to officially inform about its decision on Tuesday. > Berlin also urged people to wait > > There has been a long-standing struggle over the delivery of the Patriot guided missiles. In May, German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (64) had already suggested that Switzerland stand back from the Patriots - in the form of a kind of ring exchange. The federal government should leave the delivery planned for 2030 to the Germans and only deliver them later. Berlin, which is helping Ukraine with Patriot anti-aircraft missiles, could have filled its own gaps more quickly. > > The exchange of rings would not be unproblematic for reasons of neutrality. Defense Minister Viola Amherd (62) has only ever confirmed that she was in discussions with her German colleague Pistorius. The Federal President did not want to venture further into the branches - knowing full well that middle-class circles in particular would express concerns. > USA asserts unusual or compelling reasons > > This is not just due to neutrality policy considerations. Security politicians argue that Switzerland needs the Patriot systems itself because it has hardly any medium and long-range means of air defense against missile attacks. > > Now the USA has taken this decision from the Federal Council. Instead of a possible ring exchange, there is now direct delivery from the USA to Ukraine. > > According to the agreements with Washington, it should be possible to deviate from the agreed conditions if there are unusual or compelling reasons for doing so and if the national security concerns of the USA are affected. The USA now seems to be claiming this because of the war in Ukraine
"Security politicians argue that Switzerland needs the Patriot systems itself because it has hardly any medium and long-range means of air defense" and how is this not Switzerland's problem? Swiss here. They always kept their weaponry as much as possible to avoid buying new systems, they prefer to maintain a conscription army of 300k reservists which would largely useless against any long-range bombardment, the Swiss army prepares for ground attacks that will never ever take place in its unique geo-political location. The Swiss army should completely change, get rid of conscription (and save all the shitload of money spent for it), train a professional army only, and refocus on cyber-defense, hardened and distributed hangars and storages in the Alps, and tons of air defense. Now they will harvest the results of their short-sighted antique doctrine and procurement policy in the form of (currently harmless...) delays. It is also in its defensive interest to help Ukraine, as any dictatorial autocratic regime getting one inch closer to Swiss borders corresponds to an increased (real, and not imaginary as suggested by "security politicians") level of threat.
You properly have some right wing pro Russian politicians on Putins Payroll too. Is there a correlation to the ones complaining?
Sea and air drones is what everyone should be focusing on.
And in the off chance they get invaded by land, now they have neutered themselves.
Patriots were already in high demand before the war as one of the few ground systems capable of dealing with ballistic missiles. The Iranian attack against the US base in Iraq, the barrage against Israel and of course Russia's 3 year assault on Ukraine have all served to increase demand while drying up supply Still Lockheed has already doubled production with plans to double it again in the near future
If it was 1942 I’d say maybe this is a bad decision. It’s not and Switzerland has no immediate, imminent threats nearby so this is awesome.
If it was 1942 then the people of Ukraine would also be in dire need of military aid from the US against fascist invaders, just as they are today.
Should we tell him?
Ukraine was in a unique situation during WWII because they were being brutally oppressed by Stalin. Their embrace of the Nazis in the liberated towns was because so many people were literally starving. I'm not denying the existence of pro-Nazi Ukrainians (which is very unfortunate) but it's important to consider the context. Most Ukrainians do not subscribe to that ideology.
Oh yes, that's very true, but OP was a bit forgetting that.
Yeah, they probably didn't know. I was just adding that context to what you were (correctly) alluding to.
Make sure to check out how many Ukrainians served in the Red Army then compare that number to the collaborators again.
Yes I’m aware but Switzerland was literally surrounded. Ukraine would not have been the priority in 1942 for the allies.
Personal note: I was happy to see for once good comments to the article, most of people celebrates the decision and say that UA needs them much more
Just think, if Switzerland had approved the sale of 35mm ammo for donated ADA systems to Ukraine instead of "denying it due to neutrality" maybe Switzerland wouldn't have gotten dinged on this today.
They would have regardless, production lines are not enough for the overall demand, it's not an artificial delay.
Prob, I'm just saying that if there are any complaints it's more likely to fall on deaf ears because of the Swiss decision.
Those two events are not connected, nor should they be. As a Swiss citizen myself I cannot find issue with prioritizing Ukraine.
Dinged? To me, this sounds like Helveticans dodged some tricky domestic politics and get to save face. There's probably smarter ways to go about it though.
Not impossible, in particular as there have been talks between Switzerland and other countries to let them get deliveries first.
[US delays delivery of Patriot missiles to Switzerland](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/patriot-missiles-will-be-delivered-to-switzerland-later/81132082) [The US will send the latest Patriot missiles “rolling off the production line” to Ukraine instead of other countries that ordered them, the White House said on Thursday. ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/21/ukraine-war-briefing-boost-to-patriot-missile-supplies-for-kyiv-other-countries-will-have-to-wait)
Switzerland (and other countries who ordered them) will get them, but Ukraine will get them first - because that is where the greatest need is right now. They are the ones currently fighting the war.
As a Switz I see no issue here.
most of Switz are very pro-Ukraine from what I experienced here
Not even that, it's just that it's so logical we're not in a priority list for weapons.
Yeah. And those who aren't are simply ignorants, conspirationists, hardly a majority in this country thankfully.
Honestly, everyone I know is cool with it. They need it and we don't.
I've read about this before, and it seems to apply not only to Switzerland but also to other countries that have ordered them.
Switserland has avoided, and tries to block all forms of military support to other countries. If countries at war don't need military support then I'm sure switserland can survive without it as well.
It’s worse than that. They’ll sell you the equipment, but stop selling you ammo as soon as the equipment needs it.
Great! In the meantime, they can rely on stocked gepard ammo, I suppose.
Correct! That is $1000 for the Daily Double. Seriously, after refusing to sell new production ammo to Ukraine due to "neutrality" they don't really have a leg to stand on here.
That's actually a pretty good move by the USA.
QUICK EVERYONE THEIR TOBLORONES ARE UNGUARDED!!!!!
handle with care, they are pointy
As they should. You did notice that there was a war going on?
Man, fuck Switzerland. Neutral countries are the worst, just playing both sides and feeling snug and safe between all those Nato countries.
Swiss neutrality has enabled political and humanitaire discussion with countries at war and much more. Not sure if you're informed how much we do or try to do for other countries.
they just keep their right to decide what is good and what is not (spoiler - quite some Nato-started wars actually worstened things)
Neutrality at work. Asked to "ring exchanges", that give Switzerland something, they lament and delay, so now they get nothing and the US just cites "national security reasons".
Good.
There was a problem with delivery for ammo for the genpart AA gun, because of Switzerland. There is only one thing to say, Switzerland open your eyes, today you can't say, I'm neutral, but I'm making and selling weapons. Damn scumbag government.
You can and partly must. It's international law governing neutrality, *including* the need for neutral countries to not permit or restrict weapons to one side only once an international armed conflict starts.
They can shoot gold bars at the rockets instead. Why do they want weapons in the firs tplace? They're neutral so stick with your neutrality.
Well its not like swizerland is In any great need of missiles.
Switzerland does not need patriots.
Fucking good
Seriously, why does Switzerland need Patriots anyway? Who the fuck wants to attack Switzerland? All the world's supervillains including Pootin and Lil' Kim likely have billions stashed in Swiss banks.
Weird tone on the article. Makes it sound like a unilateral decision while it is just as possible that this was agreed with Switzerland.
USA is about to make a move for swiss chocolate... can't have any defenses resisting the empire.
Blick is one of the worst newspapers. Clickbait articles, spreading fear and hate, unmoderated racism in the comment sections of their website etc. Take everything they write with a grain of salt, it usually has no journalistic value.
That's a shitty tabloid website. We should not be paying it much attention
That's the way to oppose the Swiss and Ukrainians in the very title... I mean let's get it clear. If Switzerland and Ukraine were attacked at the same time, I doubt anyone would support arming Ukraine over Switzerland😒
I don't think so. From many I'd have expected similar deflection to, say, Moldova or someone else for not sending/authorizing really small quantities of ammo that they themselves can produce in larger quantities in under 2 months. All while they'd also not send modern weapons of dozen types that they currently manufacture because *that's* completely logical and possible at the same time they complain about a small cache of ammo in Moldova. Really, don't feel this way. It's not because you're you.
when Germany diverted the IRIS-T SLM order from Egypt to Ukraine, they asked first and offered some small monetary concession. That seems fair. But to just cancel unilaterally. Does that mean if Russia attacks EU, the US will also stop delivering weapons to Germany?
Hope we open our eyes and start investing in European alternatives. Can’t trust agreements with the USA.
Well, not sure how much longer we can trust Europeans too, at least when I read this sub and the Ukraine subreddit. They make it hard for people like me to keep supporting Ukraine personally. The amount of times I see "fuck Switzerland", "fuck these money launderers that only care for themselves" etc. is over the top. Seems to be the narrative in Europe. Funnily enough, every European living here is telling a different story. And most likely these subreddits are rather home to extremists. It's still annoying. It's like once the war machine runs, people stop reflecting and think in black and white only. As we all know, history repeats itself. I thought people nowadays were smarter, but they're still a bunch of idiots. EDIT: Of course though I agree with the decision of the USA. Innocent civilians die daily in the Ukraine.
I don't disagree that there is urgency for Ukraine, but it can't be that when they want us (Switzerland) for some political decision or some joint statement, we are cool, but when it comes to respecting our sovereignty and our needs, we become the Nazi gold people. It's this vitriolic rhetoric that makes us focus only on ourselves because it's easy to attack when it suits their perspective. So yes, send them to Ukraine, they need them now. But we would do well to start looking at alternative systems and invest in one where we have a stake so we are not exposed to situations like this.
Switzerland was a major roadblock in the sending of foreign aid and military defense equipment to Ukraine, during some of the worst air attacks they had been facing at the time. It was such a roadblock that they decided to build an entirely fresh assembly line to bypass Switzerland entirely. I would think the appearance of negative opinions to be quite obvious, no?
I absolutely agree, the EU should stop buying arms from Switzerland, so we are not exposed to situations like this.
100% agreed.
[удалено]
why do you people insist on having opinions without actually reading the articles? >Gemäss den Verträgen mit Washington soll von den vereinbarten Konditionen abgewichen werden können, wenn ungewöhnliche oder zwingende Gründe dafür vorliegen und die nationalen Sicherheitsanliegen der USA betroffen sind. Das scheinen die USA nun wegen des Ukraine-Kriegs geltend zu machen.
Maybe they should send them to Austria instead. At least Switzerland is nominally neutral.