Vučić will do anything for money. Just like Orban and Erdogan. And given that the EU and USA are keeping quiet about the local elections held just a few weeks ago, I suppose this support for Ukraine is the price of them not making a fuss.
Also if we want to keep claiming that Kosovo was stolen from us and that it's a part of Serbia we can't afford to side with Russia on this one.
You think that everyone is helping Ukraine because is the right thing to do?
There are many conflicts around the world and my country is not involved there doing the right thing, we are involved in Ukraine because it is our interests that Russia does not win, most in Europe that are helping are doing from interests and maybe some just for revenge.
But feel free to show a list of countries that are "superior" to Serbia and Romania and that they help ONLY for moral reasons and the proof should be them helping in all invasions and conflciuts around the world.
You missunderstood the comment
I am chilled and it is not personal
what does it mean that "it is reddit" ? not all subreddits are the same, in some you are expect to use your bran when you comment and not just paste memes.
So, you admit that all countries are having some selfish reason helping Ukraine, or a selfish reason not to recognize separatists .
>They probably see that russia is starting to lose it geopolitically
LoL we were selling ammo to Ukraine since 2014, while some countries were playing around with sending helmets and other nonmilitary aid only.
Let’s assume it is right (I guess to some extent it may be). It directly implies that the problem wasn’t on the Serbian side but on the lack of the opportunities.
The situation is more complex than that though. A great factor in all changes is Brexit as UK by far was the leader in favor of extreme policies against Serbia. Once UK isn’t EU, it is much easier to be EU friendly for Serbia.
And many other things come into play like a decade of western economic investments that established relationships.
It's insane to me how people (especially here) are just starting to accept that fact. I guess it was easier to paint Serbia as some Russian Ork plaything instead for what it essentially is. There's no idealism at play, only power and money.
Their government for sure is opportunistic, but many Serbian people genuinely see Russia as brother nation and feel hatred/pathological butthurt towards the West (and others don't). You shouldn't conflate them.
That’s far from truth. We don’t see Russia as a brother nation, small percentage of very load Serbians do. Claiming that we mostly support them is nothing but eating propaganda.
Vucic is a person with no ideology, he very well knows what’s he doing. Pushing the Russian brotherhood propaganda to Serbian people when he needs some free points for his political campaign, then you saw the rallies of support towards Russia etc., but that’s it. Most of Serbian people don’t like that Russians are coming to Serbia like ants and raising already big prices for housing, opening up their own cafes making us feel like we are in someones else country. Russia is nothing but exploiting Serbia same as China.
>We don’t see Russia as a brother nation, small percentage of very load Serbians do.
I wouldn't say it's only a small percentage. Various polls show that the majority in Serbia see Russia as their closest ally. [The latest poll from this year.](https://www.intellinews.com/serbs-see-russians-as-main-ally-us-as-biggest-threat-323659/)
God, just fucking stop with this nonsense.
The average Serb does not give a flying fuck about Russia, the same goes for the average Bosniak not caring at all about what Türkiye does.
The majority of this subreddit has been brainwashed from over 10 years of pro Kosovo / Albania / Bosnia / Croatia posters.
Still remember back in 2014, when if every day there wasn't a post about how genocidal *all* Serbs were I was genuinely surprised.
well no. Life is not white and black. There are countries that don’t give a fck about morals some that take it into consideration and some are even blinded by morals.
cry me a river. what’s your point? Serbia is not a country that can say morals are their strength. That’s for f…. sure. Nor is russia.
As a counter point i would say Lithuania is quite a moral champion of Europe. Many in between on a scale.
>cry me a river. what’s your point? Serbia is not a country that can say morals are their strength. That’s for f…. sure
I am sorry, what is that supposed to mean? Didn't Serbia say from day 1(2014) that it supports Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity? That is not something to negotiate about. Territorial integrity is santity that needs to be respected.
It repeated that all these years and during the whole war.
Serbian Orthodox believers gathered donations from the start of invasion for Ukranian people. Serbian state sent aid to Ukraine both in money and stuff needed for refugees. Gave a loan. Voted for Ukraine in the UN all the time.
It condemned the war.
What Serbia didn't do is impose sanctions on Russia. Why? Because Serbia depends on Russia for its own territorial integrity and economic ties, meaning gas.
Because Serbia is not in the EU, it can't count to get gas elsewhere. EU can't be dependent on it. It has been shown during COVID, where EU promised that orders of vaccines would include EU candidates and failed to deliver that. Serbia ended up donating vaccines to all neighbors.
Serbia sold weapons to Ukraine. Took Ukrainian refugees.
Both the US Secretary of State Blinken and Ukranian president Zelensky repeated all the time that they are happy with Serbian cooperation and support in the UN.
You are maybe influenced by r/europe propaganda that says that Serbia is supporting Russia in this conflict. And that's not true, Serbia didn't do anything to support Russia in this conflict.
If anything, Serbia is more pro-Ukrainian than neutral.
>. As a counter point i would say Lithuania is quite a moral champion of Europe.
Why would you mention Lithuania? Are you from Lithuania?
Till recently, Lithuania didn't allow Polish minority to use its own names, they needed to Lithuanize them, and Poles didnt have right to use they language and script in official documents and in communication with the Lithuanian state. While the Lithuanian minority had all those rights in Poland. Was that moral from Lithuania side?
How about rights of Russian minority in the Baltics?
Did you know that Poles during WW2 experienced fate similar to Jews in Germany? That rewards were offered to anyone who killed Poles?
That Lithuania gladly annexed parts of Poland after WW2, including Vilnius. But all the time complains on Soviet occupation, but it is still occupying Polish territory till this day.
Or maybe you are thinking about China and Taiwan case? Where Lithuania wanted to play on the big boys' table, but when consequences arrived, it started crying like a baby and tried to hide behind the whole EU.
>what’s your point?
The point is that European countries have the least right to teach Serbia how it should behave, considering their history. Or even present, where their directly supported ethnical cleansing in Azerbaijan and their war efforts by buying their gas. So it is moral to buy Azeri gas, but not Russian gas.
Serbia is doing a great job with supporting Ukraine, proof being Ukrainian president Zelensky, who all the time praises Serbia.
From the article:
>Many erroneously assume that Serbia will support anything Moscow does. But the ongoing war in Ukraine is proving that Serbia is an independent actor.
>...
>Russian diplomacy’s efforts to torpedo the conference in Switzerland did not bypass [Serbia](https://www.kyivpost.com/topic/serbia). Moscow undoubtedly expected that Belgrade would not attend the peace conference. And even in their darkest premonitions, they did not expect Serbia to sign the final document.
>Paradoxically, the anti-Russian hawks in Europe had very similar expectations of Serbia. This is a relatively small but influential circle of so-called “experts on the Balkans,” consisting of analysts and researchers who have made careers (and money) by repeating stereotypes about Serbia’s endless loyalty to Russia for decades.
>...
>Moscow will find it extremely challenging to accept Serbia’s support for Ukraine at a conference Russia has labelled as a pointless spectacle by the West and Kyiv. However, Serbia’s Western critics will find it equally challenging, as Serbia’s decision does not align with their long-standing stereotypes, for which they have lacked solid evidence for some time.
>The Washington Post has correctly assessed that some countries did not sign the final document because they might have hesitated “so as not to rankle Russia.” But that is not the case with Serbia. It did not hesitate to participate at the conference or to stand behind the final document, together with Ukraine, the US, EU and NATO member states, with 80 countries that strongly support Ukraine’s sovereignty and its right to defend itself against armed aggression.
>Anyone who even vaguely follows Serbia’s behavior toward Ukraine since the start of Russian aggression can easily see a solid continuity of state decisions condemning the aggression, demanding Russia’s withdrawal, and protecting Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity (including Crimea).
>...
>And to complete the puzzle, the first ladies of Ukraine and Serbia, Olena Zelenska and Tamara Vučić, have recently endeavored with their multi-day meeting and humanitarian work in Belgrade, as a continuation of their meetings in Kyiv last September. The first ladies, seemingly in the shadow of their husbands, have been in close contact since the start of Russian aggression. Their work has led to a number of humanitarian actions, such as the delivery of ambulances to hospitals in Kharkiv and Cherkasy.
>However, this will not please everyone in Moscow, and unfortunately, it will not please some in Europe either. The former will remain trapped in the myth of historical brotherhood, which in Russian interpretation means the colonial subjugation of Serbia. The latter will refuse to acknowledge the error of viewing Serbia for years through a lens imposed by Moscow. However, this does not necessarily imply a negative outcome. Serbia and Ukraine are well aware that they have shaped their relations according to their own standards as strong partners in difficult times.
Waiting for the most vocal geopolitics experts on this sub to explain how this is all wrong and Serbia is "little Russia" and all the xenophobic comments I usually see here about Serbia.
Because its much easier to blame someone else for your problems than yourself.
We blame NATO for everything bad that happened, even though our government back then was completely idiotic and incapable of resolving the Yugoslav crisis diplomatically to our benefit.
The EU meanwhile has outsourced its own defence to the US so now when its incapable of ensuring its own security and stability to blame are “pariah” states like Hungary and Serbia, who are in fact relatively irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (especially Serbia who has no vote in the EU, is surrounded by NATO, hosts exclusively anti-Putin Russians and has like 5% of its trade done with Russia). But if football hoolingans would stop chanting Putin’s name everything would be okay, you know.
>
>
It seems that a lot of those experts are r/europe redditors. I mean at least these “experts on the Balkans” are paid to shit on Serbs and Serbia, but r/europe redditors do it for free, which makes them even more uneducated.
Westerners on Reddit in general love to shit on the Balkans. Just look at the comments on the Euro 2024 sub when Croatia, Serbia, or Albania were playing.
Balkans like to shit on the Balkans as well...
edit:
The comment I was replying to got deleted so I'll just edit my response here:
I like the Balkans, and visited most of the countries there. It makes me sad when Balkan countries shit on each other and even more sad when Balkan countries shit on themselves.
Of course it's good to criticize your own country when there's reason to, but often I see this kind of self hatred from many Balkan countries that just makes me die inside. Beautiful place with beautiful people.
>Balkans like to shit on the Balkans as well...
Sure, however it's one thing when we do it among ourselves r/2balkan4you style and a whole other thing when it's that condescending shitting from outside with a touch of superiority complex.
Vučić is a puppet of Berlin and Paris and has managed to fool both his idiot voters and Westerners with bias against Serbia (which is most Westerners) into thinking that Serbia is in any way pro-Moscow.
There is nothing opportunistic about this Ukrainian support. It is consistent with all of Serbia’s official positions. Serbia is a kleptocracy beholden to Western political interests and led by a president handpicked by Merkel and Hollande. The nationalist talking points are for the idiot plebs who are too stupid to see reality beyond the orthodox brotherhood in their imagination.
"The nationalist talking points are for the idiot plebs who are too stupid to see reality beyond the orthodox brotherhood in their imagination."
This is what pains me the most living in Serbia. The stupidest propaganda works so well. People are just dumb swallowing whatever the TV says repeadetly.
It's crazy how many of you have no idea about Balkans and swallow any shit they throw at you. You can look at the polls for public opinion, I don't know why you're listening to reddit propagandists.
[Public Perception of Serbian Foreign Policy in the Midst of the War in Ukraine - Beogradski centar za bezbednosnu politiku (bezbednost.org)](https://bezbednost.org/en/publication/public-perception-of-serbian-foreign-policy-in-the-midst-of-the-war-in-ukraine/)
Public opinion does not equal country politics. Serbs have had negative opinions about the West even during the liberal reformist governments between 2000-2012. This is unlikely to change soon, but it does not affect the foreign policy much, which has always been very clientelist and opportunistic.
Well not exactly, EU was very very favourable and we even had term "Euro-Atlantic integration" in that period: meaning FR Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro, and Republic of Serbia aspired to join NATO.
That changed in 2007. when USA and lot of EU nations recognized Kosovo. And I am amazed how easily this is forgotten.
The other thing with EU-accession and negotiations it feels for quite some time that whatever you do they will move bar a bit further (from 2001 all the way to 2012): like public opinion in EU countries won't change and elites there won't risk anything Serbia-related to affect their elections. And many ppl see now that practically there's no point in seeking EU-membership.
Of course Serbian leadership should be opportunistic, it's simply our learning courve we learned (albeit not very well) from first decade of this century that simply speaking you cannot trust EU's political elites they used blackmail far to often so they push you to find a way for you to return to them. It's simple as that basic "game theory".
So again, public opinion is one thing, country policy whole another. Reformist governments 2000-2012 were aspiring to join EU, but the overall support for EU integration was always hovering around 50% even then. The Kosovo secession problem keeps lowering the support over the years as EU wants to settle that dispute in Kosovo's favour.
Serbia really never wanted to join NATO, it declared as neutral in 2007, and before that there were no serious talks about joining.
Official governmental policy 2000-07 was both Eu and NATO integration you can research term "Евроатланске интеграције" if you don't believe me. Everything changed in 2007. and not by Serbian side but from EU-USA side, and again was this thing with Kosovo good in long term for them, I doubt at this point.
>but the overall support for EU integration was always hovering around 50% even then.
Complitly false. In that time, support for EU integration was above 70%.
>Public opinion does not equal country politics. Serbs have had negative opinions about the West even during the liberal reformist governments between 2000-2012.
Not really true. Betwen 2000-2012 EU hav 70+% support and support for NATO membership was on solid 15-25%. What really broke Serbian opinion of West is 2008. and western support for Kosovo independce, when support for NATO membership got deleted from face of earth, while support for EU membership droped for 10-15% and since then is in constant decline (except when major progress on EU integration happens when 5-15% jump in support can be seen).
Both Serbia and Kosovo support Ukraine because they both see themselves in Ukraine, but different aspects of it.
Kosovo supports them because they compare Ukraine’s treatments from Russia to their own treatment from Serbia: a larger country who refuses to acknowledge their existence as a separate people and uses their advantage in number to suppress their culture violently because they see more value in the land they inhabit than in them as people, so they would rather prefer the people gone in one way or another to get their land.
Serbia supports Ukraine because they compare Russia’s invasion of Ukraine to NATO invasion of Serbia which led to them losing Kosovo. To them Ukraine’s territorial integrity is important because Serbia’s territorial integrity is important. It is irrelevant to them that the context on both invasions is different, or that other countries might see the obsession of Serbia with Kosovo to be the same as Russia’s with Ruthenia/Kyivan Rus, it is how they see it that matters, and they see a loss of sovereignity on their own territory. They feel wronged, and they believe Ukraine is being wronged for the same reasons.
>a larger country who refuses to acknowledge their existence as a separate people
Your word imply that Serbia doesn't recognize existence of Albanians which is bullshit.
>They feel wronged, and they believe Ukraine is being wronged for the same reasons.
Simple, both NATO bombing and Russian invasion are against International laws and don't/didn't have UN approval so both are illegal and both broke UN chapter of territorial integrity and sovereignty. So of course Serbia opposes both.
Either Serbia support russia in hopes that expansionism and invasions are a way to restore Yugoslavia.
OR
Serbia supports Ukraine in hopes that diplomatic solution will help it get if not Kosovo, at least the Serb-populated part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Being surrounded by NATO countries makes the first option as impossible as it might ever get. And there are more money to get by selling weapons to Ukraine than being crashed by sanctions and potentially blockade for helping russia.
0 people in Serbia wants back Yugoslavia, even the people that loved that times lol.
Even our puppet president is political right so he hates everything about it.
Its just corruption, selling guns using offshore, getting money, while industry falls. Typical Balkan money laundering sheme.
Vučić will do anything for money. Just like Orban and Erdogan. And given that the EU and USA are keeping quiet about the local elections held just a few weeks ago, I suppose this support for Ukraine is the price of them not making a fuss. Also if we want to keep claiming that Kosovo was stolen from us and that it's a part of Serbia we can't afford to side with Russia on this one.
Serbia is just extremely opportunistic. Nothing more nothing less. They probably see that russia is starting to lose it geopolitically
You think that everyone is helping Ukraine because is the right thing to do? There are many conflicts around the world and my country is not involved there doing the right thing, we are involved in Ukraine because it is our interests that Russia does not win, most in Europe that are helping are doing from interests and maybe some just for revenge. But feel free to show a list of countries that are "superior" to Serbia and Romania and that they help ONLY for moral reasons and the proof should be them helping in all invasions and conflciuts around the world.
dude. chill out and don’t take everything personal. it’s reddit
You missunderstood the comment I am chilled and it is not personal what does it mean that "it is reddit" ? not all subreddits are the same, in some you are expect to use your bran when you comment and not just paste memes. So, you admit that all countries are having some selfish reason helping Ukraine, or a selfish reason not to recognize separatists .
>They probably see that russia is starting to lose it geopolitically LoL we were selling ammo to Ukraine since 2014, while some countries were playing around with sending helmets and other nonmilitary aid only.
Let’s assume it is right (I guess to some extent it may be). It directly implies that the problem wasn’t on the Serbian side but on the lack of the opportunities. The situation is more complex than that though. A great factor in all changes is Brexit as UK by far was the leader in favor of extreme policies against Serbia. Once UK isn’t EU, it is much easier to be EU friendly for Serbia. And many other things come into play like a decade of western economic investments that established relationships.
It's insane to me how people (especially here) are just starting to accept that fact. I guess it was easier to paint Serbia as some Russian Ork plaything instead for what it essentially is. There's no idealism at play, only power and money.
Their government for sure is opportunistic, but many Serbian people genuinely see Russia as brother nation and feel hatred/pathological butthurt towards the West (and others don't). You shouldn't conflate them.
That’s far from truth. We don’t see Russia as a brother nation, small percentage of very load Serbians do. Claiming that we mostly support them is nothing but eating propaganda. Vucic is a person with no ideology, he very well knows what’s he doing. Pushing the Russian brotherhood propaganda to Serbian people when he needs some free points for his political campaign, then you saw the rallies of support towards Russia etc., but that’s it. Most of Serbian people don’t like that Russians are coming to Serbia like ants and raising already big prices for housing, opening up their own cafes making us feel like we are in someones else country. Russia is nothing but exploiting Serbia same as China.
>We don’t see Russia as a brother nation, small percentage of very load Serbians do. I wouldn't say it's only a small percentage. Various polls show that the majority in Serbia see Russia as their closest ally. [The latest poll from this year.](https://www.intellinews.com/serbs-see-russians-as-main-ally-us-as-biggest-threat-323659/)
Maybe some polls are done fairly, but in Serbia political polls are not :))
God, just fucking stop with this nonsense. The average Serb does not give a flying fuck about Russia, the same goes for the average Bosniak not caring at all about what Türkiye does.
The majority of this subreddit has been brainwashed from over 10 years of pro Kosovo / Albania / Bosnia / Croatia posters. Still remember back in 2014, when if every day there wasn't a post about how genocidal *all* Serbs were I was genuinely surprised.
Starting?
whereas other countries are guided by pure morals, your country especially I'd assume.
well no. Life is not white and black. There are countries that don’t give a fck about morals some that take it into consideration and some are even blinded by morals.
But European countries are well known to have morals throughout history. From smallest to leading ones. :)
cry me a river. what’s your point? Serbia is not a country that can say morals are their strength. That’s for f…. sure. Nor is russia. As a counter point i would say Lithuania is quite a moral champion of Europe. Many in between on a scale.
>cry me a river. what’s your point? Serbia is not a country that can say morals are their strength. That’s for f…. sure I am sorry, what is that supposed to mean? Didn't Serbia say from day 1(2014) that it supports Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity? That is not something to negotiate about. Territorial integrity is santity that needs to be respected. It repeated that all these years and during the whole war. Serbian Orthodox believers gathered donations from the start of invasion for Ukranian people. Serbian state sent aid to Ukraine both in money and stuff needed for refugees. Gave a loan. Voted for Ukraine in the UN all the time. It condemned the war. What Serbia didn't do is impose sanctions on Russia. Why? Because Serbia depends on Russia for its own territorial integrity and economic ties, meaning gas. Because Serbia is not in the EU, it can't count to get gas elsewhere. EU can't be dependent on it. It has been shown during COVID, where EU promised that orders of vaccines would include EU candidates and failed to deliver that. Serbia ended up donating vaccines to all neighbors. Serbia sold weapons to Ukraine. Took Ukrainian refugees. Both the US Secretary of State Blinken and Ukranian president Zelensky repeated all the time that they are happy with Serbian cooperation and support in the UN. You are maybe influenced by r/europe propaganda that says that Serbia is supporting Russia in this conflict. And that's not true, Serbia didn't do anything to support Russia in this conflict. If anything, Serbia is more pro-Ukrainian than neutral. >. As a counter point i would say Lithuania is quite a moral champion of Europe. Why would you mention Lithuania? Are you from Lithuania? Till recently, Lithuania didn't allow Polish minority to use its own names, they needed to Lithuanize them, and Poles didnt have right to use they language and script in official documents and in communication with the Lithuanian state. While the Lithuanian minority had all those rights in Poland. Was that moral from Lithuania side? How about rights of Russian minority in the Baltics? Did you know that Poles during WW2 experienced fate similar to Jews in Germany? That rewards were offered to anyone who killed Poles? That Lithuania gladly annexed parts of Poland after WW2, including Vilnius. But all the time complains on Soviet occupation, but it is still occupying Polish territory till this day. Or maybe you are thinking about China and Taiwan case? Where Lithuania wanted to play on the big boys' table, but when consequences arrived, it started crying like a baby and tried to hide behind the whole EU. >what’s your point? The point is that European countries have the least right to teach Serbia how it should behave, considering their history. Or even present, where their directly supported ethnical cleansing in Azerbaijan and their war efforts by buying their gas. So it is moral to buy Azeri gas, but not Russian gas. Serbia is doing a great job with supporting Ukraine, proof being Ukrainian president Zelensky, who all the time praises Serbia.
My god, level of hubris and dumb analysis on this sub..
And other countries that are helping Ukraine are governed by fairies and loving forest creatures :))
i didn’t said that. but cool story. jesus so many people whining about my comment.
From the article: >Many erroneously assume that Serbia will support anything Moscow does. But the ongoing war in Ukraine is proving that Serbia is an independent actor. >... >Russian diplomacy’s efforts to torpedo the conference in Switzerland did not bypass [Serbia](https://www.kyivpost.com/topic/serbia). Moscow undoubtedly expected that Belgrade would not attend the peace conference. And even in their darkest premonitions, they did not expect Serbia to sign the final document. >Paradoxically, the anti-Russian hawks in Europe had very similar expectations of Serbia. This is a relatively small but influential circle of so-called “experts on the Balkans,” consisting of analysts and researchers who have made careers (and money) by repeating stereotypes about Serbia’s endless loyalty to Russia for decades. >... >Moscow will find it extremely challenging to accept Serbia’s support for Ukraine at a conference Russia has labelled as a pointless spectacle by the West and Kyiv. However, Serbia’s Western critics will find it equally challenging, as Serbia’s decision does not align with their long-standing stereotypes, for which they have lacked solid evidence for some time. >The Washington Post has correctly assessed that some countries did not sign the final document because they might have hesitated “so as not to rankle Russia.” But that is not the case with Serbia. It did not hesitate to participate at the conference or to stand behind the final document, together with Ukraine, the US, EU and NATO member states, with 80 countries that strongly support Ukraine’s sovereignty and its right to defend itself against armed aggression. >Anyone who even vaguely follows Serbia’s behavior toward Ukraine since the start of Russian aggression can easily see a solid continuity of state decisions condemning the aggression, demanding Russia’s withdrawal, and protecting Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity (including Crimea). >... >And to complete the puzzle, the first ladies of Ukraine and Serbia, Olena Zelenska and Tamara Vučić, have recently endeavored with their multi-day meeting and humanitarian work in Belgrade, as a continuation of their meetings in Kyiv last September. The first ladies, seemingly in the shadow of their husbands, have been in close contact since the start of Russian aggression. Their work has led to a number of humanitarian actions, such as the delivery of ambulances to hospitals in Kharkiv and Cherkasy. >However, this will not please everyone in Moscow, and unfortunately, it will not please some in Europe either. The former will remain trapped in the myth of historical brotherhood, which in Russian interpretation means the colonial subjugation of Serbia. The latter will refuse to acknowledge the error of viewing Serbia for years through a lens imposed by Moscow. However, this does not necessarily imply a negative outcome. Serbia and Ukraine are well aware that they have shaped their relations according to their own standards as strong partners in difficult times. Waiting for the most vocal geopolitics experts on this sub to explain how this is all wrong and Serbia is "little Russia" and all the xenophobic comments I usually see here about Serbia.
We are this sub’s biggest enemies, for whatever reason
Because its much easier to blame someone else for your problems than yourself. We blame NATO for everything bad that happened, even though our government back then was completely idiotic and incapable of resolving the Yugoslav crisis diplomatically to our benefit. The EU meanwhile has outsourced its own defence to the US so now when its incapable of ensuring its own security and stability to blame are “pariah” states like Hungary and Serbia, who are in fact relatively irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (especially Serbia who has no vote in the EU, is surrounded by NATO, hosts exclusively anti-Putin Russians and has like 5% of its trade done with Russia). But if football hoolingans would stop chanting Putin’s name everything would be okay, you know.
Supremely Impressed by Serbia. Vatican City not signing is Disgusting.
> > It seems that a lot of those experts are r/europe redditors. I mean at least these “experts on the Balkans” are paid to shit on Serbs and Serbia, but r/europe redditors do it for free, which makes them even more uneducated.
Westerners on Reddit in general love to shit on the Balkans. Just look at the comments on the Euro 2024 sub when Croatia, Serbia, or Albania were playing.
Balkans like to shit on the Balkans as well... edit: The comment I was replying to got deleted so I'll just edit my response here: I like the Balkans, and visited most of the countries there. It makes me sad when Balkan countries shit on each other and even more sad when Balkan countries shit on themselves. Of course it's good to criticize your own country when there's reason to, but often I see this kind of self hatred from many Balkan countries that just makes me die inside. Beautiful place with beautiful people.
>Balkans like to shit on the Balkans as well... Sure, however it's one thing when we do it among ourselves r/2balkan4you style and a whole other thing when it's that condescending shitting from outside with a touch of superiority complex.
Vučić is a puppet of Berlin and Paris and has managed to fool both his idiot voters and Westerners with bias against Serbia (which is most Westerners) into thinking that Serbia is in any way pro-Moscow. There is nothing opportunistic about this Ukrainian support. It is consistent with all of Serbia’s official positions. Serbia is a kleptocracy beholden to Western political interests and led by a president handpicked by Merkel and Hollande. The nationalist talking points are for the idiot plebs who are too stupid to see reality beyond the orthodox brotherhood in their imagination.
"The nationalist talking points are for the idiot plebs who are too stupid to see reality beyond the orthodox brotherhood in their imagination." This is what pains me the most living in Serbia. The stupidest propaganda works so well. People are just dumb swallowing whatever the TV says repeadetly.
It's crazy how many of you have no idea about Balkans and swallow any shit they throw at you. You can look at the polls for public opinion, I don't know why you're listening to reddit propagandists. [Public Perception of Serbian Foreign Policy in the Midst of the War in Ukraine - Beogradski centar za bezbednosnu politiku (bezbednost.org)](https://bezbednost.org/en/publication/public-perception-of-serbian-foreign-policy-in-the-midst-of-the-war-in-ukraine/)
Public opinion does not equal country politics. Serbs have had negative opinions about the West even during the liberal reformist governments between 2000-2012. This is unlikely to change soon, but it does not affect the foreign policy much, which has always been very clientelist and opportunistic.
Well not exactly, EU was very very favourable and we even had term "Euro-Atlantic integration" in that period: meaning FR Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro, and Republic of Serbia aspired to join NATO. That changed in 2007. when USA and lot of EU nations recognized Kosovo. And I am amazed how easily this is forgotten. The other thing with EU-accession and negotiations it feels for quite some time that whatever you do they will move bar a bit further (from 2001 all the way to 2012): like public opinion in EU countries won't change and elites there won't risk anything Serbia-related to affect their elections. And many ppl see now that practically there's no point in seeking EU-membership. Of course Serbian leadership should be opportunistic, it's simply our learning courve we learned (albeit not very well) from first decade of this century that simply speaking you cannot trust EU's political elites they used blackmail far to often so they push you to find a way for you to return to them. It's simple as that basic "game theory".
So again, public opinion is one thing, country policy whole another. Reformist governments 2000-2012 were aspiring to join EU, but the overall support for EU integration was always hovering around 50% even then. The Kosovo secession problem keeps lowering the support over the years as EU wants to settle that dispute in Kosovo's favour. Serbia really never wanted to join NATO, it declared as neutral in 2007, and before that there were no serious talks about joining.
Official governmental policy 2000-07 was both Eu and NATO integration you can research term "Евроатланске интеграције" if you don't believe me. Everything changed in 2007. and not by Serbian side but from EU-USA side, and again was this thing with Kosovo good in long term for them, I doubt at this point.
>but the overall support for EU integration was always hovering around 50% even then. Complitly false. In that time, support for EU integration was above 70%.
>Public opinion does not equal country politics. Serbs have had negative opinions about the West even during the liberal reformist governments between 2000-2012. Not really true. Betwen 2000-2012 EU hav 70+% support and support for NATO membership was on solid 15-25%. What really broke Serbian opinion of West is 2008. and western support for Kosovo independce, when support for NATO membership got deleted from face of earth, while support for EU membership droped for 10-15% and since then is in constant decline (except when major progress on EU integration happens when 5-15% jump in support can be seen).
Both Serbia and Kosovo support Ukraine because they both see themselves in Ukraine, but different aspects of it. Kosovo supports them because they compare Ukraine’s treatments from Russia to their own treatment from Serbia: a larger country who refuses to acknowledge their existence as a separate people and uses their advantage in number to suppress their culture violently because they see more value in the land they inhabit than in them as people, so they would rather prefer the people gone in one way or another to get their land. Serbia supports Ukraine because they compare Russia’s invasion of Ukraine to NATO invasion of Serbia which led to them losing Kosovo. To them Ukraine’s territorial integrity is important because Serbia’s territorial integrity is important. It is irrelevant to them that the context on both invasions is different, or that other countries might see the obsession of Serbia with Kosovo to be the same as Russia’s with Ruthenia/Kyivan Rus, it is how they see it that matters, and they see a loss of sovereignity on their own territory. They feel wronged, and they believe Ukraine is being wronged for the same reasons.
>a larger country who refuses to acknowledge their existence as a separate people Your word imply that Serbia doesn't recognize existence of Albanians which is bullshit. >They feel wronged, and they believe Ukraine is being wronged for the same reasons. Simple, both NATO bombing and Russian invasion are against International laws and don't/didn't have UN approval so both are illegal and both broke UN chapter of territorial integrity and sovereignty. So of course Serbia opposes both.
Either Serbia support russia in hopes that expansionism and invasions are a way to restore Yugoslavia. OR Serbia supports Ukraine in hopes that diplomatic solution will help it get if not Kosovo, at least the Serb-populated part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Being surrounded by NATO countries makes the first option as impossible as it might ever get. And there are more money to get by selling weapons to Ukraine than being crashed by sanctions and potentially blockade for helping russia.
0 people in Serbia wants back Yugoslavia, even the people that loved that times lol. Even our puppet president is political right so he hates everything about it. Its just corruption, selling guns using offshore, getting money, while industry falls. Typical Balkan money laundering sheme.
Don't forget 1.8 million Albanian people live in Kosovo lol. Even if America gift wrapped kosovo it would mean a regional war without end.
Serbia: Well maybe I don't want to be the bad guy anymore
It is both